Dropping DOWN From FBS

[NY Crusader 2010]

UAB's move today represents the first time since 1996 that an FBS (then Division I-A) school has dropped football. Pacific was the last to do so if I'm not mistaken. With the anticipated arms race in major college football upcoming, this begs the question -- has anyone ever dropped DOWN from FBS to FCS since the divisional split? Not counting the Ivy League and a handful of schools like Holy Cross and William & Mary who remained I-A for a handful of extra years as independents before officially moving down.

There is so much talk every year about who's going to move up and where but never about who might move down. In what seems like a blink of an eye, Old Dominion, Appalachian State, Georgia Southern, Texas State, Georgia State and UMass all leaped into the greener pastures. Meanwhile, there is non-stop speculation as to who will be next: JMU, Illinois State, Jacksonville State, Missouri State etc. all seem eager to join in on the party.

If FBS football is not viable for some, like UAB, why not explore opportunities to continue the program at a less expensive level and in a league where you'd be more competitive? This seems like an obvious course of action but it appears that no one even considers this. It seems to me that UAB would fit just fine in the SoCon, Ohio Valley or Missouri Valley. They will likely end up in one of the latter two when they inevitably get kicked out of C-USA.

[ngineer]

UAB's move today represents the first time since 1996 that an FBS (then Division I-A) school has dropped football. Pacific was the last to do so if I'm not mistaken. With the anticipated arms race in major college football upcoming, this begs the question -- has anyone ever dropped DOWN from FBS to FCS since the divisional split? Not counting the Ivy League and a handful of schools like Holy Cross and William & Mary who remained I-A for a handful of extra years as independents before officially moving down.

There is so much talk every year about who's going to move up and where but never about who might move down. In what seems like a blink of an eye, Old Dominion, Appalachian State, Georgia Southern, Texas State, Georgia State and UMass all leaped into the greener pastures. Meanwhile, there is non-stop speculation as to who will be next: JMU, Illinois State, Jacksonville State, Missouri State etc. all seem eager to join in on the party.

If FBS football is not viable for some, like UAB, why not explore opportunities to continue the program at a less expensive level and in a league where you'd be more competitive? This seems like an obvious course of action but it appears that no one even considers this. It seems to me that UAB would fit just fine in the SoCon, Ohio Valley or Missouri Valley. They will likely end up in one of the latter two when they inevitably get kicked out of C-USA.

Ego.

See Army and Navy.

[Twentysix]

I don't know about from FBS, but Centenary College was DI in the Summit League the first couple years NDSU was DI. They have since dropped down to D-III.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I don't know about from FBS, but Centenary College was DI in the Summit League the first couple years NDSU was DI. They have since dropped down to D-III.

I guess that tree fell and nobody heard it.

[bonarae]

No one, I think, dropped down aside from those mentioned in the OP's post. Birmingham Southern was D-I for a time, I believe, but they dropped to D-III when they planned to start football, and they play football in the SAA (Chicago's future football conference effective next year).

[FormerPokeCenter]

I don't know about from FBS, but Centenary College was DI in the Summit League the first couple years NDSU was DI. They have since dropped down to D-III.


Centenary hasn't played football since the 1940's...

[Sycamore62]

Ego.

See Army and Navy.

I think Navy and Air Force and in the future Army will show they can play at as high a level as the G5 teams.

I cant ant understand why UAB didn't wait and see what would happen with the landscape first. something is gonna happen and there is no reason to fold before you find out what it is. Hell it could make things good for everyone.

[TheRevSFA]

Centenary hasn't played football since the 1940's...

Yep. I actually liked when we played them in basketball. The Gold Dome is a neat little venue

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Temple might be the closest a program has come to dropping down recently. Temple football at the FBS level was saved by a single vote....

From a NY Times article


Instead, the Owls have produced only three winning seasons since 1979. Being forced out of the Big East was a huge blow to Temple’s esteem. University officials even considered eliminating football in 2005, or dropping to what was formerly known as Division I-AA.
Only by a vote of 8 to 7, with one abstention, did a university panel decide to keep football at the major college level, Bradshaw said. Even the university president at the time was said to have voted no. And those who voted yes were acting “on hope with no evidence,” Bradshaw said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/24/sports/ncaafootball/24temple.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I was a student at Temple when this was going down. It was a unique situation in many ways. I know what the UAB students and alumni are dealing with.....

[FormerPokeCenter]

Centenary was a football badass at one point, with wins over Texas A&M, Texas and even Notre Dame.....in 1927, I think, they were undefeated at 10-0 and in the hunt for a National Championship with a 4-0 record against Southwest Conference Foes...

I'm a little partial to Centenary....My oldest daughter went to school there and we only live a few blocks away from the campus....

[Sader87]

C-USA, Sun Belt and MAC should all be relegated to the FCS-level. Total waste of time, $$$ and energy that those programs play at the FBS-level.

The service academies should also be playing at the FCS-level imo as well.

Not a slight on these programs, just that both the economies of scale and the evah more professionalization of college football football at the FBS-level make these schools a bad fit in the FBS.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

C-USA, Sun Belt and MAC should all be relegated to the FCS-level. Total waste of time, $$$ and energy that those programs play at the FBS-level.

The service academies should also be playing at the FCS-level imo as well.

Not a slight on these programs, just that both the economies of scale and the evah more professionalization of college football football at the FBS-level make these schools a bad fit in the FBS.

No chance. Navy can flat-out compete with the Ohio State's and Notre Dame's of the world. If everything remained the same but classification, Navy would literally beat the crap out of the rest of FCS, NDSU included 7/10 years. Navy played Georgia Southern about 3 weeks ago and won 52-19. GSU went 8-0 in the Sun Belt this year. The Middies are moving to the AAC next season. They will compete for the league title and the G5 major bowl spot most years.

Air Force would also beat the hell out of 90-95% of FCS teams most years.

Those two are legit FBS programs. FIU, FAU, South Alabama, Georgia State, Idaho etc. are not....

A case could be made for Army but the Black Knights can't and shouldn't leave their brothers behind.

These programs remaining FBS ensures they get the best possible football player. A FCS means the quality of player decreases. That's not a good thing imo. They're hindered enough when it comes to recruiting. The FBS classification is that little extra boost that a kid is willing to sacrifice for when it comes to the military commitment.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Navy played Georgia Southern about 3 weeks ago and won 52-19. GSU went 8-0 in the Sun Belt this year.



Says more about the Sun Belt than it does about how much Navy would dominate FCS. If I remember correctly, GSU was an also-ran in the Southern Conference last year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Says more about the Sun Belt than it does about how much Navy would dominate FCS. If I remember correctly, GSU was an also-ran in the Southern Conference last year.

IMO, it says quite a bit about both. This isn't a vintage Navy team but it's still a nightmare to play. You put Navy is the CAA and they would dominate, especially in an era of unbalanced schedules. I would take them over UNH and Villanova by 2 TD's if they played this weekend....

Likewise, you put Air Force in the Big Sky and it's over. The Falcons are 9-3 and own a win over a darn good Boise State team. They are at a different level over the course of 12 games.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Lehigh TU,

I agree that the academies can and should stay FBS. They've done a pretty good job of finding niches where they can compete, travel around the country and make it into half-decent bowl games. I don't see the need for Navy and Army to drop down to Patriot League levels of football -- it doesn't make sense. Army can host a top-ten Stanford team, throw the kitchen sink at them and be competitive for a half. Navy played tough against Ohio State and ND. I think the academy is better off with these results than, say opening with Brown.

I disagree with the notion that the academies would run roughshod over FCS year after year. If you think Navy and Air Force could go to Missoula, Fargo or the UNI Dome and walk-out with decisive victories, you'd be mistaken. According to last year's Sagarins, NDSU would've been favored at home versus all but the Top 10 teams in the country. Good Navy teams have also lost to FCS schools. Delaware beats them about every other time the two play, including years when the Mids were going to bowl games. Army lost to an AWFUL Holy Cross team in 2002 and has been pummeled by FCS teams numerous times since. Navy and Air Force would be in the top 10 in FCS just about every year but to say they'd win championships 70% of the time is ludicrous.

[Sader87]

Point being....not so much now, but in the coming FBS-universe (paid players, all the accomodations etc etc) the service academies, almost on principle, won't continue to play at the highest-level of college football.

It's definitely coming.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Point being....not so much now, but in the coming FBS-universe (paid players, all the accomodations etc etc) the service academies, almost on principle, won't continue to play at the highest-level of college football.

It's definitely coming.

They're already not competing at the highest level of football and haven't since Staubach left the Naval Academy in the 1960s. IMO, the service academies are in a fine place. They've shown they can swim with the G5 and compete with some P5 teams on a good day. They get to schedule games around the country so service members stationed in CA, TX, HI etc. can go see them play. Air Force is in a league where they are with local rivals and are competitive. Army and Navy have put together schedules that work for them and they bring great crowds to whatever middle-of-the-road bowl games they get invited to. Navy is going into the AAC and should do OK. Army's jaunt into C-USA was a disaster when they were there from '97-'05 but I think the CUSA of old was much stronger than the AAC is now. I know it would be awesome from our perspective if the academies ever went into the PL in football. But that is still so far from happening. The academies are really no less competitive now than they have been in the '80s, '90s and '00s.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh TU,

I agree that the academies can and should stay FBS. They've done a pretty good job of finding niches where they can compete, travel around the country and make it into half-decent bowl games. I don't see the need for Navy and Army to drop down to Patriot League levels of football -- it doesn't make sense. Army can host a top-ten Stanford team, throw the kitchen sink at them and be competitive for a half. Navy played tough against Ohio State and ND. I think the academy is better off with these results than, say opening with Brown.

I disagree with the notion that the academies would run roughshod over FCS year after year. If you think Navy and Air Force could go to Missoula, Fargo or the UNI Dome and walk-out with decisive victories, you'd be mistaken. According to last year's Sagarins, NDSU would've been favored at home versus all but the Top 10 teams in the country. Good Navy teams have also lost to FCS schools. Delaware beats them about every other time the two play, including years when the Mids were going to bowl games. Army lost to an AWFUL Holy Cross team in 2002 and has been pummeled by FCS teams numerous times since. Navy and Air Force would be in the top 10 in FCS just about every year but to say they'd win championships 70% of the time is ludicrous.

Air Force would not mind traveling to Missoula or Cheney, WA. You have to realize that if they are FCS they are playing a FCS schedule. Of their 12 games only one or two teams would have a legit shot of beating them or even competing with them. Put Navy or Air Force in the CAA or Big Sky 80% of their games wouldn't be competitive. Plus, they would enjoy a tremendous home field advantage relative to their FCS peers. I can assure you they would never travel for a playoff game.

Navy has beat Delware 6/8 times they played since 1995. Margins of victory 24, 16, 14, 17, 23, 44. One of UD's wins was in 2003, by 4. UD won the national title that year. They beat Navy in 2007 by 7. The Hens had Joe Flacco and were national runner-up to a ridiculous App State team. That's the type of Hen team it took to stay within double digits and win.....two of the best in school history...

[NY Crusader 2010]

Air Force would not mind traveling to Missoula or Cheney, WA. You have to realize that if they are FCS they are playing a FCS schedule. Of their 12 games only one or two teams would have a legit shot of beating them or even competing with them. Put Navy or Air Force in the CAA or Big Sky 80% of their games wouldn't be competitive. Plus, they would enjoy a tremendous home field advantage relative to their FCS peers. I can assure you they would never travel for a playoff game.

Navy has beat Delware 6/8 times they played since 1995. Margins of victory 24, 16, 14, 17, 23, 44. One of UD's wins was in 2003, by 4. UD won the national title that year. They beat Navy in 2007 by 7. The Hens had Joe Flacco and were national runner-up to a ridiculous App State team. That's the type of Hen team it took to stay within double digits and win.....two of the best in school history...

Navy 10-7 all time against UD. You're excused.

[Sader87]

The world of FBS is about to (and is) fundamentally change. I just don't see Army and Navy (or Air Force) staying in this (somewhat pun intended) football arms race.

The service academies have been able to cling to an FBS identity but that identity (playing a lot of lower FBS schools) is probably going to end soon.

I think it will actually be a boon for those schools vying for a national championship every year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Navy 10-7 all time against UD. You're excused.

C'mon. Over the last twenty years UD has beaten Navy twice in 8 tries. Those are the only two times they've come within single figures and those were tremendous UD teams. For this argument most recent is definitely most relative. If UD-Navy play for the next 5 years how many do the Hen's win? My guess is most UD fans would say zero.....

That's like saying Lehigh is close to being competitive with Rugters because the series is pretty even 43-30....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The world of FBS is about to (and is) fundamentally change. I just don't see Army and Navy (or Air Force) staying in this (somewhat pun intended) football arms race.

The service academies have been able to cling to an FBS identity but that identity (playing a lot of lower FBS schools) is probably going to end soon.

I think it will actually be a boon for those schools vying for a national championship every year.

What are you talking about? Air Force has been an established member of the Mountain West for years. They've been a solid program in that said conference.

Navy is moving to the AAC next year. They will be playing Cincinnati, ECU, UCF, Temple in addition to Notre Dame etc. They'll be national TV several times.

How is that unstable? They're miles ahead of the directional schools down south.

[Sader87]

You're not seeing where the FBS is headed.....the P5 are about to leave all the other FBS schools in the dust economically and figuratively....there really won't be anywhere for the service academies to go but a lower level in football.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You're not seeing where the FBS is headed.....the P5 are about to leave all the other FBS schools in the dust economically and figuratively....there really won't be anywhere for the service academies to go but a lower level in football.

I completely see where FBS is headed because Temple is right in the middle of it. Notre Dame decided to stop playing Michigan but will continue to play Navy. The MWC and AAC are absolutely not going anywhere. Not now or in the next 20 years will Lehigh, Holy Cross, New Hampshire, Indiana State, McNeese State, Wofford, W&M, EWU etc be doing home and homes with Cincinnati, Boise State, East Carolina, Temple, San Diego State, Houston, Nevada, Colorado State etc.

The FBS will not be changing. Just like FCS has the PFL and IL that "exist", that's what the SBC and CUSA and perhaps the MAC will be.

Nothing THAT drastic is going to happen. Look at the budget and facility disparity that exists between the best FCS conferences and the G5 schools. Even the lowly SBC stadiums as a whole blow the CAA or MVC digs away. The difference is HUGE!

[Sader87]

With the FBS playoff system in place now....the divide is even greatah.

Football at the non-P5 FBS level will be evah more marginalized.....there's no future in the FBS for either the service academies or the lower-level FBS leagues.

Army and Navy will be playing FCS football within the next decade....I really have no doubt in this.

[344Johnson]

They're already not competing at the highest level of football and haven't since Staubach left the Naval Academy in the 1960s. IMO, the service academies are in a fine place. They've shown they can swim with the G5 and compete with some P5 teams on a good day. They get to schedule games around the country so service members stationed in CA, TX, HI etc. can go see them play. Air Force is in a league where they are with local rivals and are competitive. Army and Navy have put together schedules that work for them and they bring great crowds to whatever middle-of-the-road bowl games they get invited to. Navy is going into the AAC and should do OK. Army's jaunt into C-USA was a disaster when they were there from '97-'05 but I think the CUSA of old was much stronger than the AAC is now. I know it would be awesome from our perspective if the academies ever went into the PL in football. But that is still so far from happening. The academies are really no less competitive now than they have been in the '80s, '90s and '00s.

Air Force finished #2 at some point in the 80's I believe.

Service Academies would likely **** all over FCS teams. Quality of athlete they get probably wouldn't go down...even Army might remember what winning feels like(can't underestimate how contagious winning can be).

As a Notre Dame fan, time after time I've had to sit through either losses or too close for comfort wins against Air Force and Navy. Say what you want about Notre Dame not being what they used to be....but they are generally at least a pretty solid team. Can only remember them being truly bad one year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

With the FBS playoff system in place now....the divide is even greatah.

Football at the non-P5 FBS level will be evah more marginalized.....there's no future in the FBS for either the service academies or the lower-level FBS leagues.

Army and Navy will be playing FCS football within the next decade....I really have no doubt in this.

The playoff has not marginalized anyone that wasn't marginalized before. San Diego State, Toledo, SMU, Temple, Boise State, Navy, Colorado State, ECU have had no shot at a title for the last 30 years. The media and the powers that be basically made sure there would never be another BYU after 1984.

How do explain Navy transition for joining the AAC next year to FCS football within 10 years? What dynamics will occur for something like that to occur? You have to realize you are one of the very very few who believe that. Then again, you're also one of the few FCS fans who don't like the playoffs....

[NY Crusader 2010]

Air Force finished #2 at some point in the 80's I believe.

As a Notre Dame fan, time after time I've had to sit through either losses or too close for comfort wins against Air Force and Navy. Say what you want about Notre Dame not being what they used to be....but they are generally at least a pretty solid team. Can only remember them being truly bad one year.

1) Notre Dame beat Navy 45 CONSECUTIVE TIMES.

2) AFA at #2 in the country? Certainly wasn't in 1978 when Holy Cross beat them.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Air Force finished #2 at some point in the 80's I believe.

Service Academies would likely **** all over FCS teams. Quality of athlete they get probably wouldn't go down...even Army might remember what winning feels like(can't underestimate how contagious winning can be).

As a Notre Dame fan, time after time I've had to sit through either losses or too close for comfort wins against Air Force and Navy. Say what you want about Notre Dame not being what they used to be....but they are generally at least a pretty solid team. Can only remember them being truly bad one year.

I'm a ND fan too. Those Fisher DeBerry teams drove Holtz nuts. The 1996 Air Force loss is why ND didn't get a major bowl invite thus ending Holt's tenure following the USC game. The year before ND had to stop Army's 2 pt conversion to beat them at the Meadowlands.

[NY Crusader 2010]

C'mon. Over the last twenty years UD has beaten Navy twice in 8 tries. Those are the only two times they've come within single figures and those were tremendous UD teams. For this argument most recent is definitely most relative. If UD-Navy play for the next 5 years how many do the Hen's win? My guess is most UD fans would say zero.....

That's like saying Lehigh is close to being competitive with Rugters because the series is pretty even 43-30....

The Lehigh-Rutgers argument is backward because most of those games were probably before WWII. If anything you'd expect the UD-Navy series to be more lopsided given that Navy was a national power as late as the 1960's and Delaware didn't even become Division I until about 1980. To compare, Navy is 35-6 against William & Mary but 0-2 in their last two tries (which were both W&M teams that had LOSING records in I-AA by the way).

If Delaware played Navy for the next five years, I bet UD wins at least one game. The Hens are about as down as they've ever been right now (losing to Pitt 69-0 can attest to that) but they'll be a playoff team soon enough.

[344Johnson]

1) Notre Dame beat Navy 45 CONSECUTIVE TIMES.

2) AFA at #2 in the country? Certainly wasn't in 1978 when Holy Cross beat them.

1.) Yes, they did.

2.) Was #2 in '85, lost by 7 to BYU. Beat Texas in their bowl game. Finished #5 in the nation.

3.) Finished #10 in '98.

Air Force and Navy compete at the FBS level despite their academic/physical requirements and post-college commitment. Can imagine they'd have little or no trouble being powerhouses in the FCS.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'm a ND fan too. Those Fisher DeBerry teams drove Holtz nuts. The 1996 Air Force loss is why ND didn't get a major bowl invite thus ending Holt's tenure following the USC game. The year before ND had to stop Army's 2 pt conversion to beat them at the Meadowlands.

I was at that ND-Army game. One of my first college football memories. I seem to remember Army missing a FG late in the game as well. ND won 28-26 IIRC.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The Lehigh-Rutgers argument is backward because most of those games were probably before WWII. If anything you'd expect the UD-Navy series to be more lopsided given that Navy was a national power as late as the 1960's and Delaware didn't even become Division I until about 1980. To compare, Navy is 35-6 against William & Mary but 0-2 in their last two tries (which were both W&M teams that had LOSING records in I-AA by the way).

If Delaware played Navy for the next five years, I bet UD wins at least one game. The Hens are about as down as they've ever been right now (losing to Pitt 69-0 can attest to that) but they'll be a playoff team soon enough.

As I said in another post. Navy did not have a winning record when UD was even up with them in the 1980's. Navy also lost to several other FCS teams at that time including a middling Lehigh team in 1987. Navy was among the very worst FBS programs in the country at time. 13 years without a winning record is terrible. When Navy got it together they started rolling UD, even when the Hens were still an elite FCS program. The two UD teams that won in the last 20 years were tremendous, like tops in school history , not just "playoff" caliber.

[NY Crusader 2010]

1.) Yes, they did.

Air Force and Navy compete at the FBS level despite their academic/physical requirements and post-college commitment. Can imagine they'd have little or no trouble being powerhouses in the FCS.

They'd be powerhouses yes. But would they account for 70% of the championships and bulldoze the NDSUs of the world? The answer is no. If Navy were in the Patriot League, they'd probably have won a minimum of 8 of the last 10 league titles. Put them in the CAA and they'd have won the league maybe 40-50%of the time. Army would probably be a slightly better than .500 team in the CAA over that time. Would AFA be pretty dominant in the Big Sky? Absolutely. Would they go into Bozeman, Cheyney and Missoula every time and win 45-10? You'd have to be delusional to think so.

[344Johnson]

They'd be powerhouses yes. But would they account for 70% of the championships and bulldoze the NDSUs of the world? The answer is no. If Navy were in the Patriot League, they'd probably have won a minimum of 8 of the last 10 league titles. Put them in the CAA and they'd have won the league maybe 40-50%of the time. Army would probably be a slightly better than .500 team in the CAA over that time. Would AFA be pretty dominant in the Big Sky? Absolutely. Would they go into Bozeman, Cheyney and Missoula every time and win 45-10? You'd have to be delusional to think so.

Between Air Force and Navy, I wouldn't be surprised if they won 70% of titles. I think a lot of it would depend on changes in level of recruiting.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

They'd be powerhouses yes. But would they account for 70% of the championships and bulldoze the NDSUs of the world? The answer is no. If Navy were in the Patriot League, they'd probably have won a minimum of 8 of the last 10 league titles. Put them in the CAA and they'd have won the league maybe 40-50%of the time. Army would probably be a slightly better than .500 team in the CAA over that time. Would AFA be pretty dominant in the Big Sky? Absolutely. Would they go into Bozeman, Cheyney and Missoula every time and win 45-10? You'd have to be delusional to think so.

Montana State, Montana, Villanova, UNH etc might have one or two teams a decade capable of beating a legitimately GOOD or even decent FBS team/program.

Villanova won the national title the year they beat 8-4 Temple 27-24. NDSU won the title when they beat a good KState team....

[NY Crusader 2010]

Between Air Force and Navy, I wouldn't be surprised if they won 70% of titles. I think a lot of it would depend on changes in level of recruiting.

Well, it's late but if you want to check the Sagarins for the last twenty years and count the number of times that Navy or Air Force were ranked higher than the top FCS team at the conclusion of each season, go ahead. If that number is => 14, you win.

Anyway, like I've said before, the academies aren't coming to FCS. They're successful enough where they're playing now and I don't foresee that changing any time in the near future.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Montana State, Montana, Villanova, UNH etc might have one or two teams a decade capable of beating a legitimately GOOD or even decent FBS team/program.

Villanova won the national title the year they beat 8-4 Temple 27-24. NDSU won the title when they beat a good KState team....

And App St won the title beating a #5 ranked at the time Michigan team.
EWU beat Oregon St last year when they were #25 and fell just short of U. of Washington this year.
JMU beat a top-10 VT in a year when they didn't even make the FCS playoffs, oddly enough.

[bonarae]

The playoff has not marginalized anyone that wasn't marginalized before. San Diego State, Toledo, SMU, Temple, Boise State, Navy, Colorado State, ECU have had no shot at a title for the last 30 years. The media and the powers that be basically made sure there would never be another BYU after 1984.

I personally do not like the greed that is widely prevalent in the FBS and is at the center of everything being done there right now.

Much like the conference tournaments in basketball, the deserving are often left out. xsmhx xbawlingx

[Rjones61]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAvSuQEh6lI

[TheKingpin28]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAvSuQEh6lI

That's not easy to watch. It's a shame that it had to end for some of those guys. The harsh reality is some of them might never get to play another down of football when they should have the opportunity to all due to the fact the "powers that be" would not find them so that big brother could have more funding.

[bonarae]

It's a shame that it had to end for some of those guys. The harsh reality is some of them might never get to play another down of football when they should have the opportunity to all due to the fact the "powers that be" would not find them so that big brother could have more funding.

Unfortunately, many of them may hang their cleats at the very moment the program ends, they tend to give up on football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Something important to note re: UAB. Since they are still a part of C-USA, they couldn't realistically consider FCS football. First, C-USA requires their schools to sponsor a football team that plays (FBS) football in the conference. Second, any FCS program would be seen as a potential stepping stone to FBS football as a part of C-USA. I personally see it as their C-USA membership precluded them from having it in consideration, so seeing UAB's situation as a trend of schools dropping rather than reclassifying is not necessarily accurate.

It is theoretically possible that, when C-USA throws UAB to the curb, they could restart football at the FCS level. Not saying they will, but they could.

In that vein, as long as the conferences require their teams to sponsor FBS football and field FBS teams, you'll probably see teams drop rather than reclassify. If App St./WKU/ODU did so tomorrow they'd be in the same boat, they'd have to drop football. Only when they join a conference that would allow them to do so would they even have the option to reclassify.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Also, AFA, Army and Navy will always be FBS, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it would be nice if they played Patriot League schools a little bit more often. It seems like that's the case.

[Daytripper]

Regardless of the what the Service Academies do, Sader87 is right about the lower level FBS conferences and teams. They will be (even more) irrelevant in the FBS. When the Power 5 make the break complete, they will be left with no recourse but to join forces with FCS.

[bluehenbillk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAvSuQEh6lI

Thanks for posting that - that must've been a terrible past couple of weeks/months there with the knowledge that their program could get shut down. Makes me hate the Crimson Tide that much more - everybody should be a Mizzou fan this Saturday.

[GannonFan]

Regardless of the what the Service Academies do, Sader87 is right about the lower level FBS conferences and teams. They will be (even more) irrelevant in the FBS. When the Power 5 make the break complete, they will be left with no recourse but to join forces with FCS.

I don't see that at all - if anything, the level that's being hurt is the FCS level. The lower level FBS teams will still be needed - the P5 aren't about to limit themselves to only playing each other. So there are still OOC games that are necessary and that's where the lower level FBS teams make about 2x what the FCS teams make playing those games. What is happening is that FCS is being left even further behind. You could easily have made the argument that FCS was the second level of football for the past 2-3 decades - now it's looking more and more like the 3rd level of football. There'll still be the AAC, CUSA, MWC and the likes for quite some time.

[Daytripper]

I don't see that at all - if anything, the level that's being hurt is the FCS level. The lower level FBS teams will still be needed - the P5 aren't about to limit themselves to only playing each other. So there are still OOC games that are necessary and that's where the lower level FBS teams make about 2x what the FCS teams make playing those games. What is happening is that FCS is being left even further behind. You could easily have made the argument that FCS was the second level of football for the past 2-3 decades - now it's looking more and more like the 3rd level of football. There'll still be the AAC, CUSA, MWC and the likes for quite some time.


Interesting. One upshot for FCS is that the FBS leftovers will still need their lower level out-of-conference games. Which means the FCS teams that play FBS bottom feeder teams won't be subjected to demolition by power 5 teams.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Everyone needs an Austin Peay for homecoming.

[Theee Catrabbit]

That's very emotional, you never think of a lot of stuff like that. Some will get to play, doesn't the NCAA usually let these guys transfer without repercussions? When UNO dropped it's D2 Football, SDSU took in 3 or 4 players. And they all played very well. I think 1 or 2 wrestlers as well.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Navy lost to Western Kentucky who barely got bowl eligible. They almost lost to South Alabama, who we beat 28-6. We got ran off the field because we didn't play well and apparently didn't think we should try to do what we did against schematically against Georgia Tech in the second half. The service academies play with option offenses because (as Will Muschamp said after we beat them last year) the option negates talent. Let's not make them out to be what they aren't. They are all in the top 10 percent of the G5.

[Mattymc727]

How about a team like Eastern Michigan? I wonder if they are looking at UAB and feeling the same way. Eastern Michigan could be an FCS team, and probably not even a good one.

[WileECoyote06]

I don't see that at all - if anything, the level that's being hurt is the FCS level. The lower level FBS teams will still be needed - the P5 aren't about to limit themselves to only playing each other. So there are still OOC games that are necessary and that's where the lower level FBS teams make about 2x what the FCS teams make playing those games. What is happening is that FCS is being left even further behind. You could easily have made the argument that FCS was the second level of football for the past 2-3 decades - now it's looking more and more like the 3rd level of football. There'll still be the AAC, CUSA, MWC and the likes for quite some time.

This right here. Also, why would most of FCS want to deal with the recruiting wars that would ensue. Most G5 schools still have superior facilities and greater regional brand recognition than 90% of the current FCS membership. Your prediction is the more likely result. We might as well rebrand ourselves Division I (P5), II (G5), III (FCS), IV (II), and V (III).

[Catamount87]

Several years ago when App St and Georgia Southern started talking about moving up, I tossed out this scenario on our Catamount Pride board about the reasoning for moving up.

A) The BCS conferences with their realignments are in a major land grab in order to control the major media markets. At some point they will break away from the NCAA if they don't get "their way" or get preferential treatment allowing them to do as they please. (As we've seen, both of these things have come to pass.)

B) This land grab will essentially allow the BCS conferences to control the vast majority of TV/media revenue. This will create an even great chasm between the BCS conferences and the remaining FBS and FCS conferences. In turn these lower FBS and FCS conferences will struggle to garner more/any TV/media revenue while athletic expenses continue to rise. (This too is coming to pass.)

Once the BCS schools are able to either break away or get the NCAA to let them make their own rules, they become the defacto "new" division I thus relegating the remaining FBS programs to what basically is a second tier of division I. This then relegates FCS to a division II like status. So, really programs like App and Georgia Southern are doing nothing more than maintaining their position in division I second tier.

What's interesting about all of this? In many regards, history is repeating itself because there are some similarities to the 1978 split that created the original two tiers, I-A and I-AA.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

Am I mistaken in thinking Florida A&M played at the Division 1A level at some point in the 90s? For some reason I have that stuck in my head, but I don't know where it came from.

[WileECoyote06]

Am I mistaken in thinking Florida A&M played at the Division 1A level at some point in the 90s? For some reason I have that stuck in my head, but I don't know where it came from.

Florida A&M played as a D-IAA independent with a transitional D-IA schedule for one year in 2004.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This right here. Also, why would most of FCS want to deal with the recruiting wars that would ensue. Most G5 schools still have superior facilities and greater regional brand recognition than 90% of the current FCS membership. Your prediction is the more likely result. We might as well rebrand ourselves Division I (P5), II (G5), III (FCS), IV (II), and V (III).

Was Jacksonville State's recruiting really affected that drastically because UAB had "greater regional brand recognition" for being FBS? Some kids probably went to UAB because they were (say) going to play at Tennessee and at Kentucky, but Jacksonville State undoubtedly had a similar recruiting pitch + playoffs. Between many of these G5 teams and FCS I don't think it's very different.

The G5 in general is very ill-defined, lumping together programs like Eastern Michigan, UL-Monroe and UAB (borderline FCS programs that would struggle to make the playoffs) along with BYU and Air Force (who would be competing for the FCSNCG every year).

[aceinthehole]

UAB's move today represents the first time since 1996 that an FBS (then Division I-A) school has dropped football. Pacific was the last to do so if I'm not mistaken. With the anticipated arms race in major college football upcoming, this begs the question -- has anyone ever dropped DOWN from FBS to FCS since the divisional split? Not counting the Ivy League and a handful of schools like Holy Cross and William & Mary who remained I-A for a handful of extra years as independents before officially moving down.

As far as I can tell, the only football program that reclassified down in football from any Division I subdivision post 1981 is West Texas A&M. They played football at the I-A and I-AA level in the MVC from 1972-1985. They reclassified their entire athletic program from I/I-AA to D-II for the 1986-87 season.

I will let a more knowledgeable Patriot League poster determine if Gettysburg also fits your criteria (since 1973). They played Division I basketball from 1954-1974, but I'm not sure how their football team was classified at that time.

[aceinthehole]

I don't know about from FBS, but Centenary College was DI in the Summit League the first couple years NDSU was DI. They have since dropped down to D-III.

Actually there are a lot of (basketball) schools that have reclassified out of D-I:

- Northeastern Illinois University played 8 seasons as D-I member, in the ECC and Mid-Con, from 1991-1998. They dropped all intercollegiate athletics.

- Brooklyn College (CUNY) was also a D-I member (1934-39 and 1983-92) and reclassified to D-III.

- Utica College played 6 seasons in Division I (1982-87) and reclassified to D-III.

- Alliant University (1982-1991) - formerly known as U.S. International University in San Diego. They have dropped athletics.

- Armstrong State University (1987) - The Pirates from Savannah, Georgia played just one season at the highest level and now compete in Division II.

- Cal State Los Angeles (1971-75) - The Golden Eagles currently play in D-II.

- Gettysburg played from 1954 through the 1974 season in the D-I Mid-Atlantic Conference.


Other former D-I basketball programs that dropped athletics/reclassified since 1978:

- Birmingham-Southern College (2006)
- Morris Brown College (2003)
- Augusta State University (1991)
- Hardin-Simmons University (1990)
- West Texas A&M University (1986)
- Oklahoma City University (1985)
- University of Baltimore (1983)
- West Chester University (1982)
- Catholic University (1981)

[PAllen]

Was Jacksonville State's recruiting really affected that drastically because UAB had "greater regional brand recognition" for being FBS? Some kids probably went to UAB because they were (say) going to play at Tennessee and at Kentucky, but Jacksonville State undoubtedly had a similar recruiting pitch + playoffs. Between many of these G5 teams and FCS I don't think it's very different.

The G5 in general is very ill-defined, lumping together programs like Eastern Michigan, UL-Monroe and UAB (borderline FCS programs that would struggle to make the playoffs) along with BYU and Air Force (who would be competing for the FCSNCG every year).

Come on LFN. I love the FCS Playoff system, but to any recruit in the country, playing at Tennessee, or Happy Valley, or the Big House means a heck of a lot more than any promise of an FCS playoff victory. To claim that regional FBS programs do not have a significant recruiting advantage over their FCS neighbors, and thus a drastic impact on recruiting is disingenuous at best. You yourself spout praises repeatedly whenever a Patriot league school signs a kid with multiple FBS offers even when those offers are from Buffalo, Ohio, or Georgia State.

To your second point, the G5 is very much a "none of the above" grouping. Then again, FCS is very much a "none of the above II", with schools from NDSU and YSU, down to Davidson.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Come on LFN. I love the FCS Playoff system, but to any recruit in the country, playing at Tennessee, or Happy Valley, or the Big House means a heck of a lot more than any promise of an FCS playoff victory. To claim that regional FBS programs do not have a significant recruiting advantage over their FCS neighbors, and thus a drastic impact on recruiting is disingenuous at best. You yourself spout praises repeatedly whenever a Patriot league school signs a kid with multiple FBS offers even when those offers are from Buffalo, Ohio, or Georgia State.

To your second point, the G5 is very much a "none of the above" grouping. Then again, FCS is very much a "none of the above II", with schools from NDSU and YSU, down to Davidson.

No doubt "playing at Tennessee" had to have been a huge recruiting carrot for UAB football players, just as "playing at Auburn" had to have been a huge recruiting carrot for Jax State players. I agree with you, being able to say that means a lot more than any form of postseason, bowl or otherwise.

My point is that considering G5 and FCS both have these opportunities, so it's not that different. UAB might have a couple more of those types of games (e.g. Kentucky) but does that constitute a huge recruiting advantage? Does saying "you can compete for the Raycom Media Camellia Bowl" hold that much more clout than the FCS playoffs? Maybe, but I'd say no.

Now if you're saying Alabama has a lot more clout than Jacksonville State, sure. Also, Army, BYU, Boise State, yes, absolutely. But other C-USA teams like UAB? I don't think so.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Incidentally, I love the fact that your 1,000th post started with "Come on, LFN..." xlolx

[PAllen]

Incidentally, I love the fact that your 1,000th post started with "Come on, LFN..." xlolx

I was holding out for a good one, but couldn't pass that one up. We'll see who I mention in number 2000 if we live that long ;)

[Sitting Bull]

The Lehigh-Rutgers argument is backward because most of those games were probably before WWII. If anything you'd expect the UD-Navy series to be more lopsided given that Navy was a national power as late as the 1960's and Delaware didn't even become Division I until about 1980. To compare, Navy is 35-6 against William & Mary but 0-2 in their last two tries (which were both W&M teams that had LOSING records in I-AA by the way).

Excellent point - not to mention, 40 of the 41 games against Navy have been played in Annapolis.

[melloware13]

Actually there are a lot of (basketball) schools that have reclassified out of D-I:

- Northeastern Illinois University played 8 seasons as D-I member, in the ECC and Mid-Con, from 1991-1998. They dropped all intercollegiate athletics.

- Brooklyn College (CUNY) was also a D-I member (1934-39 and 1983-92) and reclassified to D-III.

- Utica College played 6 seasons in Division I (1982-87) and reclassified to D-III.

- Alliant University (1982-1991) - formerly known as U.S. International University in San Diego. They have dropped athletics.

- Armstrong State University (1987) - The Pirates from Savannah, Georgia played just one season at the highest level and now compete in Division II.

- Cal State Los Angeles (1971-75) - The Golden Eagles currently play in D-II.

- Gettysburg played from 1954 through the 1974 season in the D-I Mid-Atlantic Conference.


Other former D-I basketball programs that dropped athletics/reclassified since 1978:

- Birmingham-Southern College (2006)
- Morris Brown College (2003)
- Augusta State University (1991)
- Hardin-Simmons University (1990)
- West Texas A&M University (1986)
- Oklahoma City University (1985)
- University of Baltimore (1983)
- West Chester University (1982)
- Catholic University (1981)



And Centenary dropped from DI to DIII in 2011

[citdog]

No chance. Navy can flat-out compete with the Ohio State's and Notre Dame's of the world. If everything remained the same but classification, Navy would literally beat the crap out of the rest of FCS, NDSU included 7/10 years. Navy played Georgia Southern about 3 weeks ago and won 52-19. GSU went 8-0 in the Sun Belt this year. The Middies are moving to the AAC next season. They will compete for the league title and the G5 major bowl spot most years.

Air Force would also beat the hell out of 90-95% of FCS teams most years.

Those two are legit FBS programs. FIU, FAU, South Alabama, Georgia State, Idaho etc. are not....

A case could be made for Army but the Black Knights can't and shouldn't leave their brothers behind.

These programs remaining FBS ensures they get the best possible football player. A FCS means the quality of player decreases. That's not a good thing imo. They're hindered enough when it comes to recruiting. The FBS classification is that little extra boost that a kid is willing to sacrifice for when it comes to the military commitment.

Their is a reason the federal military schools will not schedule The Citadel. That reason is that they are SCARED of getting defeated AGAIN.

[Bisonoline]

Their is a reason the federal military schools will not schedule The Citadel. That reason is that they are SCARED of getting defeated AGAIN.

Were you on the team that beat Arkansas?

[344Johnson]

Their is a reason the federal military schools will not schedule The Citadel. That reason is that they are SCARED of getting defeated AGAIN.

El Cid would get run off the field by Air Force or Navy.

[Lehigh'98]

Their is a reason the federal military schools will not schedule The Citadel. That reason is that they are SCARED of getting defeated AGAIN.

They want no part of your illegal blocking schemes.

[Doc QB]

What's interesting about all of this? In many regards, history is repeating itself because there are some similarities to the 1978 split that created the original two tiers, I-A and I-AA.

It is almost exactly the same, with the biggest FBS programs spending buckets more money to sharpen the divide, some schools moving up, some staying put...all the while TV contracts and new playoff system and its buckets more cash driving the system toward the Power 5 being a truly separate enterprise. The difference now is that now a portion of the non-power five FBSs may be potentially closer to FCS/I-AA than the Power 5 than they want to believe. But hey, as long as you are FBS, that may be all that matters to them.

Its the same divide. More money for the top in conferences and programs that have always been there, arent going anywhere, and aint expanding. Middling programs with less money/resources/recognition. Just a shuffling of who inhabits that second and/or lesser tier(s).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not even getting mentioned during the CFP shows during the week can't be sitting well with a lot of G5 schools. Marshall I think made it in for exactly one week, UCF not at all, and Boise is at 22 or something. When your best team is considered to be behind Missouri, that's saying something.

[AmsterBison]

Better off letting the P5 go... I don't think their story is going to end with "and they all lived happily ever after."

[walliver]

College Football will come under tremendous pressure over the next few years.

The concussion issue is not going to go away. Schools may find themselves looking at tremendous ongoing liability.

Schools drawing crowds of 60,000-100,000 with regional followings should be in decent financial shape with large incomes from attendance and TV. But even then, with the NCAA lifting recruiting staff limits and coaches salaries increasing rapidly, costs are skyrocketing. Clemson, with an attendance of 70,000+ per game and beneficiary of the ESPN-ACC contract is talking about adding an athletics fee next year to help fund the football program.

The P5, with attendances ranging from around 30,000 down to 4,051 (Eastern Michigan) per game take in a lot less at the gate and only get chump change from TV.

Most football programs are subsidized, and a fair chunk of that money can eventually be traced back to student loans. Government largesse will not continue forever.

I suspect over the next 10-15 years, we will see reductions in scholarship limits. Marginal programs will drop football. Others will de-emphasize football. A number of FCS schools will likely follow a Pioneer League model. There will be fewer kids playing high school football (and more playing soccer and lacrosse [although soccer has its own concussion concerns]).

I often wonder how long the Alabama's, FSU's, and Michigan's will subsidize the Vanderbilts, Wake Forest's, and Northwesterns of their conferences.

[DFW HOYA]

I suspect over the next 10-15 years, we will see reductions in scholarship limits. Marginal programs will drop football. Others will de-emphasize football. A number of FCS schools will likely follow a Pioneer League model. There will be fewer kids playing high school football (and more playing soccer and lacrosse [although soccer has its own concussion concerns]). I often wonder how long the Alabama's, FSU's, and Michigan's will subsidize the Vanderbilts, Wake Forest's, and Northwesterns of their conferences.

This has been echoed for decades on end. Very few, if any schools have truly deemphasized football in the last 25 years--most have stayed where they were. No I-A team has moved down to I-AA since the 1981 ruling, unless you count Villanova's revival in 1986.

As long as cable TV rights are on a package basis and not a la carte, there is plenty of money to go around...just not to conferences below the ESPN/Fox Five.