New Davidson Coach Disses I-AA Academics

[asufan87]

From Q&A in yesterday's Charlotte Observer...I think a number of schools would beg to differ.

Q. What attracted you back to Davidson? "It goes back to the people here. Obviously, the environment of great academics and I-AA football. That's unusual in I-AA football."

[catamount man]

What a moron! :mad: GO CATAMOUNTS!!!

[Ivytalk]

A truly astounding comment. Weak academics are the exception rather than the rule in I-AA. Many I-AA conferences are strong academically from top to bottom. Did this dude just fall off a turnip truck?

[Coastal89]

He probably came from Tennessee where they graduate about 30% of the football players.

[yomama]

In the same interview, he said he could've gotten into Davidson (if only his family could afford the tuition).

How many of you can say the same?

[Thumper250]

The guy is a UNCC grad, GA'd at Western Carolina and was an assistant at Davidson before. Was an assistant at Bucknell this past year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

From Q&A in yesterday's Charlotte Observer...I think a number of schools would beg to differ.

Q. What attracted you back to Davidson? "It goes back to the people here. Obviously, the environment of great academics and I-AA football. That's unusual in I-AA football."

Just a completely baseless comment. I'll spare the obvious comments on the Patriot League and Ivy League players with their graduation rates and great academics. There's no I-AA school that can be considered a "football factory" like U Alabama, U Texas, or Auburn.

What's particularly shameless is it's that (get ready now) it's implied that thethe reason he rejoined Davidson after becoming sick and tired of all the lack of great academics and I-AA football from his time at.... BUCKNELL. Yes fans, he was an assistant coach at that football factory of the Susquehanna, that same Bucknell who had 26 members on the Patriot League honor roll, the same football machine that cranked out a quarter of its squad which averaged a 3.2 GPA. For shame Bucknell!

More seriously, I would have pushed him for specifics. "So, Guy, exactly what conference and what specific teams do you mean?"

[yomama]

...it's implied that thethe reason he rejoined Davidson after becoming sick and tired of all the lack of great academics and I-AA football from his time at.... BUCKNELL.

Or maybe he wanted a promotion to head coach. Or maybe he wanted to return home.

Nah, couldn't be...

[ccujacket]

Maybe he just wanted someone to do his laundry for him?

[ngineer]

Maybe he just wanted someone to do his laundry for him?

Likely, since he appears 'three sheets to the wind."

[OL FU]

What attracted you back to Davidson? "It goes back to the people here. Obviously, the environment of great academics and I-AA football. That's unusual in I-AA football."

He is confused. Does he really think that Davidson really plays I-AA football?

[JohnStOnge]

In the same interview, he said he could've gotten into Davidson (if only his family could afford the tuition).

How many of you can say the same?

I think if I'd have made it my objective early enough in high school so as not to screw around and let my GPA fall I probably could've. In other words, if I'd have cared back then about getting into any particular school and made that a priority.

I didn't though so probably not.

In any case...this goes to why I think current university rankings stink. The fact that a school has selective admissions standards does not necessarily mean that highly qualified students get a better education there than they would at one with less stringent admissions standards. To really show how schools rank, they need some measure of how prepared they are upon graduation as well as adjustment for the potential of the incoming students. That's the only way you can really show that a student of given ability is likely to receive a better education at school A than he/she would at school B. As far as I know nobody's done that so the truth is nobody really knows how schools compare in terms of educational quality. It's all a bunch of assumptions and some of them are pretty questionable.

Like graduation rate. A school with a higher graduation rate gets a higher academic ranking. Now think about that. If two schools have students with about the same potential and one is more challenging than the other, which do you think will have the higher graduation rate? Answer: The less challenging one will.

Yet by the way we rate universities the less challenging one is going to get a higher rating for that if all other things are close to even. Basically if you, establish higher admissions standards, spend more money, and make sure not too many people fail you get a higher rating. Measurement of the actual effect upon students is not a factor at all.

[yomama]

Thanks. I suspected this was all a dark conspiracy.

I'm steering everyone I know toward McNeese.

[Go...gate]

It is the height of arrogance to make the statement on both fronts. There are a number of 1-AA schools which are superior to Davidson academically (like the entire Ivy League, for example) and nearly every 1-AA school is superior to Davidson in football.

That guy is probably ticked off because Tim Landis, his coach at Bucknell, was the guy who turned things around at Davidson and created coattails that the coach can no longer ride to advance his career.

[JohnStOnge]

Yo, here is a description of how one of the more well-known ranking systems (US News and World Reports) works:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/weight_brief.php (http://)

If you're inclined, read it yourself. Nothing at all that involves measuring how well each school prepares its students.

It's not a "consipiracy," but it IS one more example of how something gets established as part of the "received wisdom" in our culture when the basis for it is suspect. We hear/read things are what the experts say and accept them.

I live near Baton Rouge. LSU recently opted to raise its admissions standards. When it does that, if it stays about as challenging as it is now, its graduation and retention rates will rise. Those changes will improve its ratings score even if the quality of education there doesn't change at all. And if it raises its faculty's salary that'll improve it even more...even though throughout it all the extent to which an education at LSU prepares a graduate for what comes after needn't change at all.

Read the methodology and you'll see that's true. And if LSU could manage to actually make its classes easier without losing ground on the "Peer Assessment" survey...which might not be that difficult...it'd do even better.

On the other hand, if LSU just made its curricula more challenging without doing any of those other things so that the students that do graduate would be better prepared, it would probably lower its rating because its graduation and retention rates would drop.

[JohnStOnge]

By the way, you should still steer people towards schools with reputations because, to a very large extent, perception is reality. It doesn't matter if a student really receives a better education at Davidson than he or she would at Western Carolina or not. If he or she gets a degree from Davidson it'll create a certain perception independent of the question of whether or not the perception reflects the truth.

And it's true regardless that the fact that someone got into Davidson means they were a very capable person to begin with. Their innate ability is probably more of a factor in how well they will do than the school they attended is anyway as long as the education they received was at least adequate.

So, even though I feel that there are some real questions about perceptions with respect to differences between schools, I'd still encourage my kid to go to one that has a reputation...not because I'd put a lot of stock in ranking systems that say they're "better" than some other schools but because they'd benefit by graduating from such a school regardless.

[blukeys]

Yo, here is a description of how one of the more well-known ranking systems (US News and World Reports) works:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/weight_brief.php (http://)

Read the methodology and you'll see that's true. And if LSU could manage to actually make its classes easier without losing ground on the "Peer Assessment" survey...which might not be that difficult...it'd do even better.

On the other hand, if LSU just made its curricula more challenging without doing any of those other things so that the students that do graduate would be better prepared, it would probably lower its rating because its graduation and retention rates would drop.


Welcome to the BUSINESS of Education. It is even uglier on the inside. There are right now administrators trying to finagle ways around the rating systems of No Child Left behind and pressuring (excuse me I meant encouraging) teachers to teach the test.

[colgate13]

In the same interview, he said he could've gotten into Davidson (if only his family could afford the tuition).

How many of you can say the same?

That I could have got into Davidson and played football? SAME. I'm sure there are plenty on this board who could have. :rolleyes:

[BBB]

It is the height of arrogance to make the statement on both fronts. There are a number of 1-AA schools which are superior to Davidson academically (like the entire Ivy League, for example) and nearly every 1-AA school is superior to Davidson in football.



I'd like to add Howard to that mix.

[Go...gate]

Agreed, BBB; I'm also thinking Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Wofford, William & Mary as well as others.

[yomama]

That I could have got into Davidson and played football? SAME. I'm sure there are plenty on this board who could have. :rolleyes:

If you are implying Davidson has admissions slots for football players, you are mistaken.

Colgate dumbs down admission standards for athletes, not Davidson.

[colgate13]

If you are implying Davidson has admissions slots for football players, you are mistaken.

Colgate dumbs down admission standards for athletes, not Davidson.

Well then, I'll remember to think so highly of you too next time. :rolleyes:

No need for any special "slots" here my friend. I could have gotten into Davidson on my own merits. I don't think they're any tougher than the Ivy League. Nice try.

And while we're at it, "dumbs down" is an interesting choice of words. The Patriot League actually has a system in place to insure that athletes are representative of the overall student body. That's dumbing down? I have numerous examples of the academic talents of Colgate athletes. I'll start with John Frieser, continue with Justin Spencer (ice hockey) and finish with Simon Jarcho (soccer). The words "dumb" and "Colgate" don't belong in the same sentence.

If you think Davidson doesn't have athletes that are below the "norm", I've got a bridge to sell you. Sure they don't have "slots" but there are plenty of special interests that make their way into an admission process and I'm sure a few football players benefit from that as well. If it can happen in the NESCAC (and I know it does) it can happen at a Davidson where there are technically no rules to break by doing it.:anim_chai:nonono2:

[Go...gate]

Davidson sure wasn't saying this hogwash when they were in the PL, and they were on board with all of the academic principles the PL insisted upon for FB, which remain unchanged today. :confused:

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

[SoCon48]

It would seem that Davidson's SoCon sister schools Furman and Wofford fans would have something to say about this topic.

[FURMANFAN]

Davidson football is not in the SoCon. It's an outstanding school with a coach that made a dumb a$$ statement, probably off-the-cuff. I'm not that easily offended.

[ccujacket]

Of all the school's mentioned in the thread only the Ivy League schools accept a lower percentage of applicants. Not to mention Davidson is the 7th highest ranked liberal arts school in the country AND THEY DO YOUR LAUNDRY FOR YOU.

Therefore they win.

[Go...gate]

Whatever you say. :confused:

[OL FU]

It would seem that Davidson's SoCon sister schools Furman and Wofford fans would have something to say about this topic.

With respect to academics, the comparison is there. With respect to football, not since the '60's.

The coach got it wrong.

[colgate13]

Of all the school's mentioned in the thread only the Ivy League schools accept a lower percentage of applicants.

Hmm... how can I say this politely.... Wrong!
The most recent 2005 USN&WR reports Davidson's accept rate for 2003 (the year reporting) at 32%. Colgate's was 31% that year. I can also vouch for the fact that Colgate's now in the high 20s% for 2005.

And then there's G'Town at 23%.

Of course, accept rate is just one measure.

[ccujacket]

Hmm... how can I say this politely.... Wrong!
The most recent 2005 USN&WR reports Davidson's accept rate for 2003 (the year reporting) at 32%.

I guess Yahoo Education must be on a different year. The main point is they do your laundry. I'm a little disappointed no one else sees the beauty of that.

These kind of arguments are lame anyway, the average millionaire didn't go to the top schools or even have good grades.

[blukeys]

First I'd like to say that I think it's great that Davidson does your laundry.

Second, comparing the academic merits of what are all fine academic liberal arts institution gets a little tiresome. Will an anthropology degree from Davidson get a better job offer for the graduate then the same degree from Lafayette? Who knows This is Sort of like arguing how many angels can you fit on the head of a pin.

CCUjacket has a point about millionaires but one can argue the financial merits of a college education forever. (I had a friend in Grad school who did this in his Master's thesis.)

Third, the Davidson coach made an incredibly dumb and innacurate statement about the seriousness that I-AA institutions place on academics. He insulted the Ivy League, Patriot League, and all the I-AA institutions who work seriously to upgrade their academics. (For my money this is most of them) The fact that he came from Bucknell, a PL team which values academics, shows that either he was not thinking clearly, or sucking up to the local media and giving them what they wanted to hear.

Fourth, the quote could have been entirely screwed up by the media. (some people think this happens every day)

Fifth, ALL NCAA instiutions have different academic admittance requirements for athletes. Ask the Ivies about the Penn basketball program.
This goes down to D-3. There is nothing wrong with this. Especially since all NCAA institutions should provide for extra help (tutoring etc. ) for student athletes to compensate for the reduced admission standard and the extra time student-athletes spend in practice, games and travel.

Sixth, the reduced academic standard at all schools is tied to the general student population. So while Colgate's standard for athletes is not as high as the regular population, they will not admit any athlete who has no chance to succeed at that institution. This is only fair. What is the point of admitting a student who has no chance of succeeding in the classroom? You will lose him in a year.

Seventh, Different academic institutions have different charges and different missions. Is Harvard's entrance requirements different than GSU. Duh, Yes. But is Harvard charged by it's State Legislature with educating all the citizens of the state where it is located? No. Can one get a quality education at the same state supported institution? Without a doubt but the ball is in your court.

In many cases it is not even fair to include State assisted institutions in the discussion of academic requirements as there are legal requirements imposed by outside entities (State Legislatures) that override what the school sees as its mission.

If I have over stated what is obvious, I apologize. From my experience I-AA is not the home of the egregious abuses that one sees in college athletics. I-AA teams are not typically put on the death penalty, lose scollies, or barred from post season play for abuses in the system. Most teams try hard to play by the rules and play the hand that is dealt to them without complaint. I am really p$ssed that the Davidson Coach insulted the entire 100+ teams that play ball at this level to aggrandize himself with the local media and I hope he gets his reward from Sept. thru Nov. every year.

[OL FU]

Davidson football is not in the SoCon. It's an outstanding school with a coach that made a dumb a$$ statement, probably off-the-cuff. I'm not that easily offended.

Me either, But I do think the coach doesn't have to look to far south to find schools in I-AA that are equal to or close in academics and a heck of a lot better in football. Comment was made to make Davidson folks smile.

[OL FU]

Bluekeys,

Very well said. While the school I attended is not Ivy or Patriot League, it is a very good liberal arts school, well respected and highly rated. (I know you can't tell from my spelling and grammar).

But I said it before, I get tired of the academics argument (Even though I made it somewhat in the thread). One of the smartest people I have known went to Clemson ( for God's sake). Could he have made it into Furman, or Wofford or Davidson or Colgate? I have no doubt. Why did he go to Clemson? Maybe because he wanted to be able to party and still be valedictorian (which he was). Regardless, in many of our New York negotiating sessions he consistently blew away Ivy League graduates based on reason and knowledge, not negotiating skill alone. Not trying to start an argument on the Ivy League (they have all of my respect). Just posting an example that the education is based as much on the individual as the institution.

[colgate13]

I agree wholeheartedly with bluekeys and OL FU here. I think bluekeys pretty much summed it up and I too think it's ridiculous for the Davidson coach to claim that good academics in I-AA is an exception.

And I only brought out the statistics to clear up the facts. I hate getting into the "my school is smarter than your school" crap but I also hate when the facts aren't right. FWIW I looked up this year (2005) information. Colgate's acceptance rate is 26.6% and Davidson's is 26.7%. Looks like the schools are neck and neck.

Also, say whatever you want when it comes to ancedotes about graduates from Ivy League/Patriot League type schools. I see tons of successful people (both in money and life) all over the place when I visit these schools. If I had a dollar for ever private jet that landed in Hamilton, I could take all of AGS out for a pretty nice party. They're not doing anyone's laundry.

[OL FU]

Also, say whatever you want when it comes to ancedotes about graduates from Ivy League/Patriot League type schools. I see tons of successful people (both in money and life) all over the place when I visit these schools. If I had a dollar for ever private jet that landed in Hamilton, I could take all of AGS out for a pretty nice party. They're not doing anyone's laundry.

The anecdote was not a slam on PL or IVY. Don't own a jet myself, but have ridden in a few owned by those "types" :)

[colgate13]

The anecdote was not a slam on PL or IVY. Don't own a jet myself, but have ridden in a few owned by those "types" :)

So what you're saying is that you won't be flying up here "first-class" in 2008? :p

Don't worry, I'll be in steerage with the rest of the flock down to South Carolina in 2010! :cool:

[OL FU]

So what you're saying is that you won't be flying up here "first-class" in 2008? :p

Don't worry, I'll be in steerage with the rest of the flock down to South Carolina in 2010! :cool:

Oh I might be in first class, I have a lot of frequent flyer upgrades.

[youwouldno]

Davidson is a really good school but this coach character is obviously a complete fool. In any case, I don't much care. Mostly I think it shows how hard it must be to hire a football coach for a "mid-major" I-AA school.

[JohnStOnge]

Also, say whatever you want when it comes to ancedotes about graduates from Ivy League/Patriot League type schools. I see tons of successful people (both in money and life) all over the place when I visit these schools. If I had a dollar for ever private jet that landed in Hamilton, I could take all of AGS out for a pretty nice party. They're not doing anyone's laundry.

If someone goes to an Ivy League school, it means that (unless it was a legacy or diversity-dogma exception) they were among a fraction of the top one percent of the country in terms of ability to begin with. Bill Gates went to an Ivy League school, but since he dropped out it's obvious that the Ivy League school is not the reason he's the richest man in the world. Then, when someone graduates, they have the advantage of an Ivy League degree. They will get shots most other people won't get. It's kind of a self-fulfilling thing.

That does not mean that if the same person would've gone to another school with much less of a reputation wouldn't have been at least as well prepared by that other school. It does mean that, even if they were better prepared by that school than they would've been at an Ivy League school, their odds of making it big are lower because they're not going to get the same opportunitites to prove themselves.

People assume "Ivy League" means "Superior Preparation" because it's become so established in the popular consiousness. But if that's ever been verified by some kind of measurement of effect I'm not aware of it. Measurement of effect with adjustment for the quality of the raw material (i.e., incoming students) is certainly not part of any university rankings system I've seen.

I'm still impressed when I see that someone graduated from an Ivy League school because I know what that says about the innate intelligence of that person. And if you're an employer you're likely to be impressed with Ivy League graduates. Remember, they were the creme de la creme intellectually to begin with. They're likely to be very talented people.

I refer to the Ivy League because it's considered tops. I could say similar things about any institution that has that aura.

[JohnStOnge]

Since I went to a school that doesn't have much of a reputation I'll use it as an example of something. McNeese has a graduation rate of only 26 percent.

Now, that's a very bad thing as far as university rankings are concerned. Another bad thing is that McNeese is not at all selective in admissions. Two black marks right off the bat.

But, taken together, they make sense. If you're not selective and you have a high graduation rate, something is probably wrong. I do not see a 26 percent graduation rate as necessarily indicative of any kind of problem with the actual education received.

And let's say a school had a 26 percent graduation rate even though it was very selective. It would seem to me that the first impulse would be to think that getting through that school would mean a lot more than getting through a school that has a graduation rate like Stanford (97 percent last I heard). Instead, university ratings systems work the opposite way. They assume that a higher graduation rate means the school is doing a better job of teaching. Could be the case, but certainly doesn't have to be.

Which is why you'd have to actually accurately measure the effect upon students to really know.

[catbob]

Just found this out today, thought it was relevent to prove that IAA athletics are not horrible.

Ten of Montana State’s 13 sports teams finished with a grade point average higher than 3.0. The women’s basketball team led the way with a 3.39, followed by the men’s cross country team at 3.35 and the women’s golf team at 3.3.

A total of 29 Bobcat All-Conference performers achieved a GPA of 3.0 or higher.

As for the rest of the Sky:

Of the 104 teams who competed in athletic competition, 63 finished with an average GPA above 3.0. The Eastern Washington women’s soccer team accumulated a 3.608 GPA, highest in the league. The Northern Arizona women’s golf team achieved a 3.5. Eastern Washington was first overall on the academic side.

A total of 194 All-Conference athletes compiled a GPA of 3.0 or better. Five of the eight institutions finished with a combined GPA of higher than 3.0.

I mean it is nothing to brag about necessarily, but I think it is showing that the Sky is doing just fine in the student athlete department.

This guy obviously doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

[blukeys]

The women’s basketball team led the way with a 3.39, followed by the men’s cross country team at 3.35 and the women’s golf team at 3.3.

A total of 29 Bobcat All-Conference performers achieved a GPA of 3.0 or higher.

As for the rest of the Sky:

Of the 104 teams who competed in athletic competition, 63 finished with an average GPA above 3.0. The Eastern Washington women’s soccer team accumulated a 3.608 GPA, highest in the league. The Northern Arizona women’s golf team achieved a 3.5. Eastern Washington was first overall on the academic side.

A total of 194 All-Conference athletes compiled a GPA of 3.0 or better. Five of the eight institutions finished with a combined GPA of higher than 3.0.

I mean it is nothing to brag about necessarily, but I think it is showing that the Sky is doing just fine in the student athlete department.

This guy obviously doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

First congratulations to the bobcats. This proves my main point that the vast majoirty of I-AA schools take academics seriously.

One can't help but note that at MSU and the conference level the highest GPA's for student athletes came from the women's sports. Back in the early 90's I was talking to Barbara Viera the UD women's volleyball coach (she published 2 books on coaching and had over 800 wins) and I asked her about grades and academic eligibility of her athletes. She just laughed and said "I have never checked my athlete's grades. That's a job for the football and Men's basketball coaches." She then went on and stated that there was no social advantage for a female to be a successful athlete that is anywhere comparable for a male. Most female athletes according to Barb were very focused and directed which translated into success both in the classroom and in athletics. She stated that every year she had a player that could have gotten a full ride on academics alone and that her experience was not unique in women's sports.

[yomama]

Q. What attracted you back to Davidson? "... the environment of great academics and I-AA football. That's unusual in I-AA football."

For what it's worth, the academic progress rate (APR) for Davidson football ranks third in its league. The top two are the programs that have won the league championship 12 of 13 years.

[Saint3333]

This thread is hilarious; this has to be a record for posting activity concerning the Davidson "football" team. xlolx

[JohnStOnge]

I swear I just don't get the logic of the ways in which people think about indicators of how good a job institutions are doing at educating students.