Campbell to Big South

[Model Citizen]

...where they are already members for other sports.

You read it here first!

Lol. Chances are, you've already heard that their departure from the PFL is immanent. Worst kept secret ever.

This has nothing to do with the PFL's ongoing dramas. Campbell, like Mercer, always intended to use the Pioneer as a soft start for a football program. Financial support for the Camels is now adequate for them to move on.

Jacksonville's AD would also like his team to leave, but his support is questionable. Hard to predict the Dolphins direction right now.

[bonarae]

Hmm. FootballScoop maybe was your source? I can't believe that Campbell would turn into another Mercer by moving on into a scholarship FCS conference. OK, Morehead State? OVC in other sports...

[rokamortis]

...where they are already members for other sports.

You read it here first!

Lol. Chances are, you've already heard that their departure from the PFL is immanent. Worst kept secret ever.

This has nothing to do with the PFL's ongoing dramas. Campbell, like Mercer, always intended to use the Pioneer as a soft start for a football program. Financial support for the Camels is now adequate for them to move on.

Jacksonville's AD would also like his team to leave, but his support is questionable. Hard to predict the Dolphins direction right now.

I've read fan speculation but never anything even remotely official - but most I've talked to in the past said that Campbell wasn't even thinking about scholarships. Is this legit or more speculation?

[Model Citizen]

The athletic director is now saying they will leave, so this is legit. Not exactly official until an announcement is made, of course. Until then, we are left to make guesses on the timing of that announcement.

See article, 4th paragraph from bottom.

http://www.fayobserver.com/sports/campbell-unc-pembroke-benefit-from-adding-football/article_0a353d32-b1b9-5dda-87ae-f9a718a8112e.html

[chattanoogamocs]

Athletic director Bob Roller sees an exciting future for Campbell football, one that includes scholarships for players, stadium expansion and a geographically kinder conference in which to compete. The composition of the Pioneer Football League means road trips to San Diego, Indianapolis, Des Moines, New York and Florida.

Sounds pretty legit.

[SU DOG]

I know nothing official, but I do know the Campbell AD, Bob Roller. He came to Campbell after many years as the Samford AD. The previous President at Campbell retired this year and a new President took over July 1. The new prez, Brad Creed, is also a friend of mine, and was the former Provost at Samford. Now, I would expect the announcement to come sooner rather than later. It just makes sense.

[clenz]

So....how long until other PFL teams make a similar jump?


I always kind of figured the PFL model wouldn't last more than 5-7 years once they entered the playoff race.

[Catsfan90]

So....how long until other PFL teams make a similar jump?


I always kind of figured the PFL model wouldn't last more than 5-7 years once they entered the playoff race.
I hope more and more. What better way to get rid of the PFL?

[clenz]

I hope more and more. What better way to get rid of the PFL?
I really want Drake in the MVFC

[Catsfan90]

I really want Drake in the MVFC
I know panther would love to see Dayton make the jump. But I don't think that NDSU is ready to give up being #1.

#flyintafargo

[FargoBison]

I really want Drake in the MVFC

They would certainly save on travel. In the MVFC they could bus to every school but YSU.

[clenz]

They would certainly save on travel. In the MVFC they could bus to every school but YSU.
Drake would be an ideal 11th member, especially.....wait for it.....to go with UND jumping over

[PantherRob82]

I really want Drake in the MVFC

And we could trade YSU for Dayton.

- - - Updated - - -


Drake would be an ideal 11th member, especially.....wait for it.....to go with UND jumping over

No. Dayton.

[clenz]

And we could trade YSU for Dayton.

- - - Updated - - -



No. Dayton.
Jokes aside it's a "perfect" move...

Or as close too for maintaining a conference over a true round robin

[aceinthehole]

Dayton to the NEC!

I guess we'd have to take Marist too.

[PantherRob82]

Dayton to the NEC!

I guess we'd have to take Marist too.

Back off.

#DaytonInTheDome

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1. Marist should go to the PL before the NEC.
2. Campbell is all but lobbying for Big South membership once Coastal leaves.
3. Which also means that the Sun Belt will be recruiting Campbell as a new member by 2024.

[hebmskebm]

I've heard loud rumors about Campbell, Jacksonville, and Stetson all moving to scholarship ball. Whether they'd all move at once, and all move to the Big South remains to be determined. I've also heard murmurs about Hampton leaving the MEAC.

[Go...gate]

1. Marist should go to the PL before the NEC.
2. Campbell is all but lobbying for Big South membership once Coastal leaves.
3. Which also means that the Sun Belt will be recruiting Campbell as a new member by 2024.

Agreed.

P.S. I'd trade Marist for all sports even-up for Loyola (MD) right now.

[BisonFan02]

Back off.

#DaytonInTheDome

Dayton to the CAA with Youngstown... #****ohio xlolx

[clenz]

Dayton, Valpo, Butler and Drake are all going to be interesting to watch.

All in the MVFC and OVC foot print. One also in the CAA foot print.

All are basketball schools that moved football D1 to keep basketball D1.

If forced I wouldn't be shocked to see Butler and Valpo drop football. Butler is too far west to pull the Nova split with the BE and CAA. Neither seem to set on actually supporting football.

Drake is real interesting. A real nice stadium, a no brainer conference with 5 built in instant rivals, no travel costs, etc... The issue is getting them to pony up to it and be a "football school" unless they wanted to go the Georgetown route to save face with the other basketball MVC schools.

They go to scholarship ball they can get in on Iowa State games as well.

[PantherRob82]

Dayton, Valpo, Butler and Drake are all going to be interesting to watch.

All in the MVFC and OVC foot print. One also in the CAA foot print.

All are basketball schools that moved football D1 to keep basketball D1.

If forced I wouldn't be shocked to see Butler and Valpo drop football. Butler is too far west to pull the Nova split with the BE and CAA. Neither seem to set on actually supporting football.

Drake is real interesting. A real nice stadium, a no brainer conference with 5 built in instant rivals, no travel costs, etc... The issue is getting them to pony up to it and be a "football school" unless they wanted to go the Georgetown route to save face with the other basketball MVC schools.

They go to scholarship ball they can get in on Iowa State games as well.

Who is in the CAA footprint? Dayton? They're hardly any closer than Butler.

[Model Citizen]

I really want Drake in the MVFC

Simple solution. Just ask them how much it would take to endow $3.5 million in annual football revenue. Then write the check.

[Model Citizen]

Campbell, Jacksonville, Stetson, and Morehead are all leaving the PFL at some point. Marist could eventually go Patriot League for all sports

The other six are fairly solid for the PFL.

[Model Citizen]

Campbell is all but lobbying for Big South membership once Coastal leaves.

There is no lobbying. Campbell is already in the Big South. When they're ready to give scholarships, they will have a place on the league football schedule.

[rokamortis]

There is no lobbying. Campbell is already in the Big South. When they're ready to give scholarships, they will have a place on the league football schedule.

Exactly. If there is any lobbying it is Kyle Kalander begging and pleading with Campbell to add scholarships and finally join the Big South in all sports.

[hebmskebm]

Campbell, Jacksonville, Stetson, and Morehead are all leaving the PFL at some point. Marist could eventually go Patriot League for all sports

The other six are fairly solid for the PFL.

I can see Davidson shutting it down. On the other hand, I can see other schools in the midwestern footprint joining.

[JALMOND]

I can see Davidson shutting it down. On the other hand, I can see other schools in the midwestern footprint joining.

I'd say San Diego would also shut down. The only place they could go is the Big Sky and they would see the money going away from their basketball program in a hurry. I don't think they would want that. They value their basketball pretty highly out there and they would not want to do anything to jeopardize that. Football would most likely go before they move money from basketball.

[Model Citizen]

Jalmond, I don't think USD is hurting financially. In fact, they want to spend *a little* more on football...consider the additional financial aid they were providing in 2013. At the same time, 63 equivalencies is not in the cards for them. If the PFL were not around, I think they would ramp up scholarships to a NEC level. They would compete as an independent.

[Pinnum]

Why would Dayton add scholarships? They are competitive with NEC programs without having to spend on any scholarships and they aren't going to build a football culture at Welcome Stadium. Dayton is a basketball school. There are really only two teams in town. In the summer it is Dayton Dragons baseball and in the winter it is Flyers basketball.

Don't forget the PFL was started with only five members and didn't get over six teams until the conference was over ten years old.

If the PFL membership drops from the current 11 teams down to seven or eight teams, I still expect the programs to sponsor the sport. They will just schedule some more OOC competitions which will reduce their travel costs and will allow them to be more competitive (in the case of a program like Davidson) as they will be able to schedule more D2 and D3 clubs OOC.

[clenz]

OOC games will dry up real quick, even with D2 and D3 programs, when you have a conference trying to schedule 4 or 5 OOC games per season per team

It's the same issue the P5 is going to run in to should they ever completely cut FCS and G5 games out. Too many games and too few teams

Also need to maintain 6 to keep the playoff spot.

[aceinthehole]

1. Marist should go to the PL before the NEC.

I'm not sure Marist wants to spend the money required to play in the PL or the NEC. They are truly non-scholarship right now, and the PFL model and travel costs are still much lower that what would be needed to spend in our leagues.

The Red Foxes simply can't afford the schollys or equivs needed to be competitive in the Patriot League. While the NEC has a lower cost to compete, I think that is still outside of what they are willing to spend on football

Remember, the NEC offered the remaining MAAC programs an invite (Duquesne accepted and Marist declined). The PFL offered them a model that was cheaper than the NEC despite the travel involved.

Not sure if Marist was ever seriously considered by the PL Presidents for full membership, but I would think that leaders in Poughkeepsie would be much more interested in an all-sports Patriot League deal than a FB-only commitment.

[Pinnum]

Do you really think PFL teams are too concerned about the playoffs? It is a nice thing to have but not going to be significant in a school's decision to offer scholarships.

Valpo, Dayton, and Butler, are all local to each other and seem to have the same focus. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Duquesne end up reconsidering NEC membership and thinking about joining their basketball rivals Dayton and Davidson in the PFL as they work to build their basketball program. Attendance and game day cultures don't differ from the NEC and PFL.

[Model Citizen]

Don't forget the PFL was started with only five members and didn't get over six teams until the conference was over ten years old.

FWIW, the PFL started with six teams. After Evansville dropped football, the league played three seasons with five members.

[Pinnum]

FWIW, the PFL started with six teams. After Evansville dropped football, the league played three seasons with five members.

San Diego didn't join until the start of the 1993 season, a year after the PFL started playing a league schedule.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/usd/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2014-15/misc_non_event/YearByYearResults.pdf

[Model Citizen]

If you look around a bit more, you'll discover that '93 was the PFL's first year.

[Pinnum]

If you look around a bit more, you'll discover that '93 was the PFL's first year.

Whoa... what's with bringing up facts?!

Yeah... I just looked at the Dayton media guide; turns out I was mistaken. I seem to have misremembered...

[grizband]

OOC games will dry up real quick, even with D2 and D3 programs, when you have a conference trying to schedule 4 or 5 OOC games per season per team

It's the same issue the P5 is going to run in to should they ever completely cut FCS and G5 games out. Too many games and too few teams

Also need to maintain 6 to keep the playoff spot.
Big Sky teams have been scheduling conference teams as non conference games for a few years, because ooc options are drying up. I've been happy to see the MVFC games though, brings better competition for both leagues,ooc.

[clenz]

Big Sky teams have been scheduling conference teams as non conference games for a few years, because ooc options are drying up. I've been happy to see the MVFC games though, brings better competition for both leagues,ooc.
If the PFL drops to 6 teams we will see OOC and conference match ups of the same team over there.

They will end up more isolated than the Ivy

[birdsflyhigh]

I'm loving the Big Sky and MVFC non-official scheduling alliance. It helps both conferences and makes for some early season FCS excitement.

[aceinthehole]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Duquesne end up reconsidering NEC membership and thinking about joining their basketball rivals Dayton and Davidson in the PFL as they work to build their basketball program. Attendance and game day cultures don't differ from the NEC and PFL.

Extremely unlikely. The Dukes are very happy in the NEC and they are fully committed to a (limited) scholarship model. I don't see any indications whatsoever that they would seriously consider the PFL.

Again, they had the choice just a few years ago after the MAAC folded to join Marist in the PFL and they declined. What has changed for Duquesne since then? They actively chose to adopt scholarships and join the NEC. Hell, they have even scheduled a FBS team (Buffalo) and are likely looking to do so again in the future.

[superman7515]

Why would Dayton add scholarships? They are competitive with MVFC programs without having to spend on any scholarships and they have a massive football culture at Welcome Stadium. Dayton is a mecca. There are really only two teams in the country, Dayton and Harvard.

Man, if I had to correct any more errors in that first paragraph, I was just going to ask Ursus to delete the whole post.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exactly. If there is any lobbying it is Kyle Kalander begging and pleading with Campbell to add scholarships and finally join the Big South in all sports.

+1 Agreed.

[clenz]

Would any conference be willing to set a Georgetown like agreement up with a PFL school looking for a new home?

Would a PFL school take that set up from a non-PFL conference?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sometimes I wonder why Cal Poly, UCD, San Diego, NAU, Southern Utah and Weber State don't form their own football-only construct.

Have an arrangement to play a lot of Big Sky teams OOC (may not even be necessary; they'd be so compelling as OOC games anyway) and off you go. Way more compact than Big Sky play now. All it would require is a scholly commitment from San Diego.

[dbackjon]

Sometimes I wonder why Cal Poly, UCD, San Diego, NAU, Southern Utah and Weber State don't form their own football-only construct.

Have an arrangement to play a lot of Big Sky teams OOC (may not even be necessary; they'd be so compelling as OOC games anyway) and off you go. Way more compact than Big Sky play now. All it would require is a scholly commitment from San Diego.

What is the advantage of that? As you stated, we'd have to play the other Big Sky teams OOC. And now we get them at home as part of conference schedule.

[Pinnum]

Extremely unlikely. The Dukes are very happy in the NEC and they are fully committed to a (limited) scholarship model. I don't see any indications whatsoever that they would seriously consider the PFL.

Again, they had the choice just a few years ago after the MAAC folded to join Marist in the PFL and they declined. What has changed for Duquesne since then? They actively chose to adopt scholarships and join the NEC. Hell, they have even scheduled a FBS team (Buffalo) and are likely looking to do so again in the future.

What has changes since then?

-Football attendance has plummeted.
-Football expenses have risen.
-FCS national standing has remained flat.
-New Athletic Director (from basketball focused Dayton)
-Increase competition in basketball
-Full Cost of Attendance in the Atlantic 10




2003
Attendance


Butler
4,705


La Salle
3,417


Siena
3,003


St Peter's
4,707


Robert Morris
4,219






2003 Average
4,010








2014
Attendance


Dayton
2,163


Monmouth
1,287


West Liberty
1,719


Sacred Heart
1,345


Alderson-Broaddus
1,025


Bryant
1,034


Robert Morris
1,085






2014 Average
1,380




I am not sure they have had the return they wanted. I am under the impression the admin wants to see the Dukes more competitive in the Atlantic 10 and want to leverage their Power Seven Conference to raise more revenue. This can only be done through the basketball program, not NEC football.

I would not be shocked to see the Dukes move to the PFL but I also would not be surprised to see them maintain their local rivalry with Robert Morris and St Francis in the NEC.

[PaladinFan]

You know, it has been interesting to watch the "power shift" in the FCS away from the south and east and head more to the midwest and west.

One of my theories is just the overwhelming number of football programs in the south. I'm starting to lose count as to how many football programs there are that are either (1) new or (2) increasing scholarship levels in just Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, SC, NC, and VA. There are probably close to 800 scholarship spots at schools in those states that simply did not exist 15 years ago.

Supply stays the same, but the demand has increased exponentially.

[aceinthehole]

I am not sure they have had the return they wanted. I am under the impression the admin wants to see the Dukes more competitive in the Atlantic 10 and want to leverage their Power Seven Conference to raise more revenue. This can only be done through the basketball program, not NEC football.

I would not be shocked to see the Dukes move to the PFL but I also would not be surprised to see them maintain their local rivalry with Robert Morris and St Francis in the NEC.

Agree on this point. They are a basketball school, first and foremost.

However, you didn't answer why they turned down the PFL in the first place, knowing they would have to spend more $$$. Their press releases promoted scholarships as an advantage of NEC membership. Also, as you noted, the local football rivalry is very important. They are not choosing their associate membership for football by those attendance numbers you cited - too many other factors at play.

The Duke aren't going anywhere for football, and I think if the rest of the conference wasn't so far East, Dayton would seriously consider the NEC. The Flyers have already made it a habit of scheduling RMU and SFU as non-conference opponents each year.

[Pinnum]

Agree on this point. They are a basketball school, first and foremost.
However, you didn't answer why they turned down the PFL in the first place, knowing they would have to spend more $$$. Their press releases promoted scholarships as an advantage of NEC membership. Also, as you noted, the local football rivalry is very important. They are not choosing their associate membership for football by those attendance numbers you cited - too many other factors at play.
The Duke aren't going anywhere for football, and I think if the rest of the conference wasn't so far East, Dayton would seriously consider the NEC. The Flyers have already made it a habit of scheduling RMU and SFU as non-conference opponents each year.

When the MAAC collapsed, Duquesne had to make a decision. It was not as if they were actively looking to add scholarships and it just happened that they were provided with a rare invitation to the NEC in 2008. They were a MAAC associate, they could have shopped around at any time. They were forced to think about the future of their football program and how they wanted to progress (or not progress as other MAAC schools chose). Talking about scholarships as a positive was PR speak. It was all about informing the public and recruits that the school was investing into the football program that was already packing the stands.

I think there was an expectation, as was the case with the Patriot League, that football scholarships would raise their standing within the FCS nationally. At the time, I think the cost of scholarships wasn't significantly more money for the Dukes than they would have paid in travel expenses for games in the likes of Iowa and California as part of the PFL. I wouldn't doubt if the Dukes in their MAAC days were just missing out on recruits that would accept scholarships to D2 schools in the area like Edinboro, Slippery Rock, IUP and Cal-PA that were always considered potential playoff teams to make runs. I am sure they were expecting to capture these recruits when they could offer recruits a private school education and a discount in tuition.

No doubt they expected attendance would remain strong and maybe even increase as they could recruit WPIAL talent to the program with scholarships that would help make the locals more interested in the program which would help them occasionally get playoff bids and increase some exposure.

Of course, that hasn't materialized and things have changed. The whole football landscape has changed. The problem is that when everyone has money to buy talent but the talent pool doesn't change, it just results with everyone spreading the talent around so no one is really better off (and the previous power programs being worse off).

The NEC, likely, hasn't really provided the Dukes with what they were expecting.

In all honesty, if the Dukes were in the PFL, I wouldn't be surprised to see them producing similar results. I would expect them to perform well in the PFL and for the students and alums to actually like the rivalries even more. They games with Robert Morris and St. Francis could easily remain as OOC games and would likely remain competitive.

I do not think Duquesne made a poor decision in going to the NEC. It was a rational decision given what was known. The question is what is best for the program moving forward. I don't have the answer to that question but I could see the PFL being a possible answer.

[clenz]

Would any conference be willing to set a Georgetown like agreement up with a PFL school looking for a new home?

Would a PFL school take that set up from a non-PFL conference?
This was a serious set of questions

[CasualFan]

This was a serious set of questions
It depends upon how desperate they are. I don't think the Big South is that desperate, but if Liberty got a phone call I think they do whatever they can.

I saw that the Big South tweeted a big announcement for 4:30 two days ago. Thinking of this thread I was wondering if Campbell was making the switch. Nope, just moving basketball, baseball, and outdoor track and field tournaments out of Myrtle Beach due to conference bylaws.

[Model Citizen]

This was a serious set of questions

1. No
2. No

[walliver]

You know, it has been interesting to watch the "power shift" in the FCS away from the south and east and head more to the midwest and west.

One of my theories is just the overwhelming number of football programs in the south. I'm starting to lose count as to how many football programs there are that are either (1) new or (2) increasing scholarship levels in just Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Tennessee, SC, NC, and VA. There are probably close to 800 scholarship spots at schools in those states that simply did not exist 15 years ago.

Supply stays the same, but the demand has increased exponentially.

The situation is heightened due to the propensity of Southern schools to "move up". If Troy, GSU, ASU, ODU, MTSU were still 1-AA/FCS then strength of FCS would shift back, as it also would if Montana, EWU, NDSU and others moved to a FBS Snow Belt Conference.

[Pinnum]

The situation is heightened due to the propensity of Southern schools to "move up". If Troy, GSU, ASU, ODU, MTSU were still 1-AA/FCS then strength of FCS would shift back, as it also would if Montana, EWU, NDSU and others moved to a FBS Snow Belt Conference.

That is true, but coupled with that is the fact that those schools went from 63 to 85 scholarships which means they captured more athletes that may have otherwise gone to other schools. It has resulted in southern schools having to be a lot more aggressive with their partial scholarship offers.

[Go...gate]

I'm not sure Marist wants to spend the money required to play in the PL or the NEC. They are truly non-scholarship right now, and the PFL model and travel costs are still much lower that what would be needed to spend in our leagues.

The Red Foxes simply can't afford the schollys or equivs needed to be competitive in the Patriot League. While the NEC has a lower cost to compete, I think that is still outside of what they are willing to spend on football

Remember, the NEC offered the remaining MAAC programs an invite (Duquesne accepted and Marist declined). The PFL offered them a model that was cheaper than the NEC despite the travel involved.

Not sure if Marist was ever seriously considered by the PL Presidents for full membership, but I would think that leaders in Poughkeepsie would be much more interested in an all-sports Patriot League deal than a FB-only commitment.

I believe, like Hofstra and Fairfield, they were not sufficiently considered by the PL, especially given the fact that they (at the time) had football and, IMO, a very good projected academic profile over the long run.

BTW, to those who think Boston University was a bad move by the PL, a recently released study of international universities put BU in the top 35, as I recall. I am trying to find the link.