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clenz
November 7th, 2014, 10:30 AM
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2014/11/07/doyel-indiana-state-facing-a-football-free-future/18283525/

At Indiana State, when alumni discuss their college football team it isn't always a happy conversation.The Sycamores have been ranked in the Top 25 for five weeks, they beat Missouri State on Saturday with a field goal in the final seconds, and in Mike Perish they have one of the most prolific quarterbacks in program history -- but when some Indiana State alumni talk about football, it's not to relish these greatest of times.

It's to ponder the end of times.


As in, Indiana State without college football.
Can you imagine? ISU alumni can and are, in conversations with each other and with the alumni association and with the athletics director -- and even with me. Multiple Indiana State alumni have emailed, asking me to find out if the situation is as dire as they fear: that college football is at risk in Terre Haute.
So I asked the athletics director at Indiana State, Ron Prettyman. And I asked the school's chief financial officer, Diann McKee, university treasurer and vice president of business affairs and finance. I asked them what alumni are asking of me and of each other: Is Indiana State nearing the day when it has to decide on the financial viability of its football program?
Said Prettyman, the AD: "Lots of decisions are out of my hands. The president, the trustees, they make decisions in the best interest of the university. I make decisions in the best interest of the athletic department. I'm battling for football and the entire athletic department every day."
Said McKee, the VP: "That's beyond me, I think. That decision is kind of above my pay grade, if you will."
Lots of words there. Notice one that's missing when I asked the Indiana State AD and the Indiana State CFO if the football program might soon be in jeopardy:
Neither said: No.
This column here, this isn't an attempt at sensationalism. Run for the hills, they're shutting down Indiana State football! I'm not saying that. What I'm saying, what I'm doing, is trying to include in the conversation those Indiana State alumni who aren't talking about the football program's future, who don't understand what is happening around college football and what it could all mean for the Sycamores.
Our city, Indianapolis, matters greatly to Indiana State. Of the roughly 60,000 ISU alumni in the state, more than a quarter – 16,000 – are in Indianapolis, according to ISU Alumni Association assistant director Hilary Duncan.
At the Indiana State Foundation, the fundraising arm of the university, they look longingly this way, toward all those alums 75 miles northeast of Terre Haute.
"We have a lot of interested alumni in Indianapolis," says Phil Ness, associate VP for athletics development, "but we need some more of those alums to get in the car on a Saturday afternoon and watch some of our football games. If we can engage that segment of our alumni base – is probably the highest standard of living in the state -- then I think things begin to snowball for us."
The richest conferences have discussed taking their money-making machine and hiding it, refusing to schedule FCS schools like Indiana State, which has one guaranteed game on each of its next three schedules – at Purdue in 2015 for $450,000, Minnesota in 2016 for $475,000 and Tennessee in 2017 for $500,000,according to the Star's Mark Alesia (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/indiana/2014/11/06/indiana-purdue-ball-state-ipfw-indiana-state-iupui-college-football-college-basketball/18543573/).
One such payday a year covers roughly 4 percent of the ISU athletic department's budget, so while losing it would hurt -- and Prettyman doesn't think those games would go away entirely -- it wouldn't be a death knell. What would be a potential death knell? Multiple legal actions facing college football now, most notably two separate lawsuits against the NCAA filed by college athletes seeking a free marketplace, (http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/2014/10/09/ncaa-claudia-wilken/16989605/) and a case before the National Labor Relations Board from Northwestern football players asking to be recognized as employees with the right to unionize (http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2014/07/northwestern-asks-nlrb-to-overturn-regional-director-ruling-on-football-players-unionization.html). Those are being contested at the highest levels of college sports, but the trickle-down would reach FCS schools like Indiana State.
If college football players are legally empowered to unionize, coupled with "God only knows exactly what (legislative) craziness could prevail," as the Power Five AD told me, the ramifications for a school with a budget as small as Indiana State's – ISU ranks No. 162 of the 230 Division I schools surveyed by USA Today (http://www.indystar.com/sports/college/schools/finances/) – are financially devastating. Add to that a 90-year-old money pit of a stadium located off campus? Financially unviable.
"The litigation could have a tremendous impact on college athletics," says McKee, "and not just at Indiana State."
And so alumni, the ones who know enough to know what is happening and to fear what could happen next, are talking. To each other, to the AD, and even to me. This email came from lifelong Terre Haute resident James Twitchell, a 2009 ISU graduate:
"We've got a lot of pride here in Terre Haute and Indiana State, a lot of good people who have been able to do more with less than maybe any university in the nation. No one wants to talk about or think about cutting programs, but the way things are going I think that a lot of smaller schools like us are going to have to make a lot of tough decisions going forward."
Twitchell passed along an email that one of his friends, another Indiana State alum, sent him this week:
"[I]If we lose college football, all because a few people wanted all the money to themselves …"
Concerned alumni are talking to Ness, too. And this is what the man in charge of fundraising for athletics tells them about the future of Indiana State football:
"You know what? I think it's time for you to write that $25,000 check."

BisonFan02
November 7th, 2014, 10:53 AM
Indiana St. is probably in "good" company with a lot of other programs around the country....there are solutions, but I don't think the appetite is there for the change.....*cough* Dayton rule *cough*....The days of running football on a shoe string could be over?

clenz
November 7th, 2014, 10:57 AM
Indiana St. is probably in "good" company with a lot of other programs around the country....there are solutions, but I don't think the appetite is there for the change.....*cough* Dayton rule *cough*....The days of running football on a shoe string could be over?
Indiana State is the one football MVC school I could see dropping football. The rest of us never will. I don't know that they Sycs will either but they'd be the first on the list to do so

Sycamore62
November 7th, 2014, 11:05 AM
I havent heard anything alarming before this. It makes me wonder if most of the reason for the answers they got was the uncertainty of what the P5 will do and not knowing where they will land

melloware13
November 7th, 2014, 11:32 AM
One additional interesting side-effect of if this happens would be that Youngstown would be even more on an island in the MVFC. It could cause them to either look to the MAC or wait for JMU to potentially get poached from the CAA.

Hammerhead
November 7th, 2014, 11:42 AM
There aren't many options for replacing them either. I don't know if UND could drop out of the Big Sky in football only.

Bisonator
November 7th, 2014, 11:59 AM
There aren't many options for replacing them either. I don't know if UND could drop out of the Big Sky in football only.

Wouldn't need to replace them. With 9 teams we could have a real round robin schedule then.

centennial
November 7th, 2014, 12:16 PM
There aren't many options for replacing them either. I don't know if UND could drop out of the Big Sky in football only.

Beetlejuice beetlejuice beetlejuice..

Lehigh Football Nation
November 7th, 2014, 12:17 PM
"I'm battling for football and the entire athletic department every day."

Who knew before today that he had to?

Sycamore62
November 7th, 2014, 12:18 PM
Before you vote for you top 25 ranking, keep in mind the changes that could cause this could cause a lot of teams the same problem.

As it stands now, it seems that schools are going the other direction on football, as in adding football at schools you wouldnt expect.

tomq04
November 7th, 2014, 12:19 PM
Lots of schools would be dropping football if some of the unionization happened.

IndyTreeFan
November 7th, 2014, 12:20 PM
Indiana State isn't on the verge of dropping football. We have a very supportive president and board of trustees who will do everything they can to keep the program going. That said, most FCS, and many lower-tier FBS schools have some tough decisions coming in the near future. The winds of change are blowing, and they will hit everyone. Some will weather it better than others, but many schools are going to have to face up to it, whether they admit it now or not.

I think ISU has done a remarkable job with its football program considering that a mere 10 years ago we had an AD that was actively trying to kill the program. She had taken virtually all of the money out of football and gave it to women's basketball. It's remarkable that we've had winning seasons four out of the last five years. It's remarkable that we could find someone willing to take on the task of rebuilding.

Now, if we could just get people to show up to the games...

BisonFan02
November 7th, 2014, 12:27 PM
BCS, FBS, FCS, and DII are 10lb bags of potatoes...and we keep pulling "better" potatoes out of each bag until the BCS, FBS, and FCS bags have 20lbs of potatoes each in 10lb bags....the bags are bursting and the potatoes are going to be put back in their appropriate bags labeled P5, "FBS", and DII.

Sycamore62
November 7th, 2014, 12:29 PM
BCS, FBS, FCS, and DII are 10lb bags of potatoes...and we keep pulling "better" potatoes out of each bag until the BCS, FBS, and FCS bags have 20lbs of potatoes each in 10lb bags....the bags are bursting and the potatoes are going to be put back in their appropriate bags labeled P5, "FBS", and DII.

Im limiting my carbs so no potatoes for me.

BisonFan02
November 7th, 2014, 12:30 PM
Im limiting my carbs so no potatoes for me.

Soooooo......DIII? :D

Lehigh Football Nation
November 7th, 2014, 12:36 PM
BCS, FBS, FCS, and DII are 10lb bags of potatoes...and we keep pulling "better" potatoes out of each bag until the BCS, FBS, and FCS bags have 20lbs of potatoes each in 10lb bags....the bags are bursting and the potatoes are going to be put back in their appropriate bags labeled P5, "FBS", and DII.

Don't kid yourself. Five guys are hoarding the Grade A potatoes and leaving the rest to rot. No "better" potatoes are moving from bag to bag.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
November 7th, 2014, 12:40 PM
If Indiana State put the money they saved on football into their hoops program they COULD be better off imo. The Sycamores have the conference, location and recent history of success to do it. VCU and Wichita State are legit national brands....

St. Mary's wouldn't be Gonzaga's biggest headache in the WCC if they still played football. Well that and Australia....

ValleyTalk
November 7th, 2014, 12:41 PM
One additional interesting side-effect of if this happens would be that Youngstown would be even more on an island in the MVFC. It could cause them to either look to the MAC or wait for JMU to potentially get poached from the CAA.
YSU is not moving anywhere until we see what happens with our friends in the Power 5 conferences. My ultimate hope is that the 2nd tier FBS conferences, many of which rank behind the MVFC this year anyways, drop down to where they belong.

Don't expect anything from YSU until that happens. Even if it does happen, unless we become a consistent winner like we were in the 90s, I would not expect us to move anywhere anytime soon.

Go Green
November 7th, 2014, 12:42 PM
Anyone not aware, a similar discussion is going on about UAB in the "other sports" thread.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?163900-UAB-Could-Drop-Football&p=2173433#post2173433

Sycamore62
November 7th, 2014, 12:46 PM
If Indiana State put the money they saved on football into their hoops program they COULD be better off imo. The Sycamores have the conference, location and recent history of success to do it. VCU and Wichita State are legit national brands....

St. Mary's wouldn't be Gonzaga's biggest headache in the WCC if they still played football. Well that and Australia....

I don't buy that. The money would disappear.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
November 7th, 2014, 12:55 PM
I don't buy that. The money would disappear.

That money, with strong boosters and a solid board, would remain in the athletic department.

I think UNI is in a similar position. It's no secret the football program sucks up quite a bit of resources from a stretched budget. Bball would appear on the outside to have a lot of pull. BUT, football at UNI also has a rich tradition. Give Kurt Warner 60 seconds to speak at a UNI BOT meeting and they'll build a church and a new football stadium....

There's 3 schools in the Pre-Season AP Hoops Top 25 that don't play football, Gonzaga, Wichita State and VCU. Those are 3 big time teams this year with legit FF aspirations. There's 1 FCS playing team, Villanova....

Sycamore62
November 7th, 2014, 01:01 PM
That money, with strong boosters and a solid, board would remain in the athletic department.

I think UNI is in a similar position. It's no secret the football program sucks up quite a bit of resources from a stretched budget. Bball would appear on the outside to have a lot of pull. BUT, football at UNI also has a rich tradition. Give Kurt Warner 60 seconds to speak at a UNI BOT meeting and they'll build a church and a new football stadium....

Well, I might be wrong but even though 7,500 people go to the homecoming game, on the lot the stadium sits (think a city block that holds a stadium, parking lot and now defunct 9 hold golf course or just google maps it) there had to be in the neighborhood of 15-20k people. I doubt that would happen with a basketball game or that other sport the rest of the world plays.

If the trend is moving to football, there has to be a reason. And I cant see a bunch of these schools thinking they are going to get in on the P5 money.

Herder
November 7th, 2014, 01:04 PM
I don't see the G5 separating themselves completely from the P5, or as others have indicated, the money would dry up.

But I could see a situation where the top 1 or 2 G5 schools annually (with a perfect record and a top 15 ranking) played in a top tier bowl, and the rest of the G5 are involved in a 12 team playoff for a championship. If none of the top G5's make a top tier bowl, all would be included in a playoff.

The sticking point for G5 connection to the P5 is scholarships. Will both groups stay at 85? Will the P5 move to 90 and allow the G5 to move to 80, but still play them regularly? Could some slots be setup where a conference could choose their scholarship total in the 80-90 range, designating them as FBS? Scholarship levels will dictate what happens in the long run.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
November 7th, 2014, 01:10 PM
I don't see the G5 separating themselves completely from the P5, or as others have indicated, the money would dry up.

But I could see a situation where the top 1 or 2 G5 schools annually (with a perfect record and a top 15 ranking) played in a top tier bowl, and the rest of the G5 are involved in a 12 team playoff for a championship. If none of the top G5's make a top tier bowl, all would be included in a playoff.

The sticking point for G5 connection to the P5 is scholarships. Will both groups stay at 85? Will the P5 move to 90 and allow the G5 to move to 80, but still play them regularly? Could some slots be setup where a conference could choose their scholarship total in the 80-90 range, designating them as FBS? Scholarship levels will dictate what happens in the long run.

There is a serious gap that exists within the G5. The Sun Belt teams have very little in common with the AAC and MWC. Look at the schools and facilities in the MWC and AAC. There are a lot of big time national brands in those conferences. The amount of resources that UConn, Cincinnati, Colorado State, Temple, San Diego State, Memphis, UCF, Boise State etc have relative to Georgia Southern, UL-Monroe, Troy, App State is enormous.....

The MAC is the ultimate tweener. A quirky, positive perception in football with a sneaky good hoops tradition. It also has a strong geographical identity which gives it a great alumni presence in places that matter.....

superman7515
November 7th, 2014, 01:10 PM
I don't buy that. The money would disappear.

Why? It's worked out better than their wildest dreams at Hofstra and Northeastern. After dropping football, their basketball teams have lived exclusively in the land of milk and honey; velvet ropes part, women swoon, and the athletic departments are flush with money.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
November 7th, 2014, 01:18 PM
Why? It's worked out better than their wildest dreams at Hofstra and Northeastern. After dropping football, their basketball teams have lived exclusively in the land of milk and honey; velvet ropes part, women swoon, and the athletic departments are flush with money.

Perhaps Matthews Arena at Northeastern doesn't get approval for the renovation in 2009? Hockey is big at Northeastern, not hoops. My guess is the hockey program did receive some boost in its budget when football was cut.

As for Hofstra. It seems like a university that wants to build its brand on academics and the athletic program as a whole is a bit of an after thought.....

VCU and Wichita also had a historical foundation in hoops to build from. Hofstra and Northeastern do/did not....

Drblankstare
November 7th, 2014, 02:05 PM
I'm just tired of it all. I want the P5 to hurry up and make the split completely. Leave the NCAA, pay their players and only play each other. Once it's done, the rest of the NCAA schools can reorganize with the already existing FCS playoff model.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
November 7th, 2014, 02:14 PM
I'm just tired of it all. I want the P5 to hurry up and make the split completely. Leave the NCAA, pay their players and only play each other. Once it's done, the rest of the NCAA schools can reorganize with the already existing FCS playoff model.

It's not that simple. The problem is the wide discrepancy that exists in D1 football due to the Dayton rule. If the P5 split where do the remaining G5 teams go? The MWC and AAC are extremely unique. The gap from those schools profiles and that of the better FCS conferences is extremely vast.....

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/f1/3a/c3/f13ac3b3e04642c14d7d41dfe8d7f8f8.jpg

http://stadiumsusa.com/images/thumbs/3ef3a853b0a58155622ac557b0c3f2258188efc2.jpg-590x1000.png

http://image1.stadiumjourney.com/images/stadiums/1416_Pregame_Inside_Fargodome.jpg

BisonFan02
November 7th, 2014, 02:31 PM
It's not that simple. The problem is the wide discrepancy that exists in D1 football due to the Dayton rule. If the P5 split where do the remaining G5 teams go? The MWC and AAC are extremely unique. The gap from those schools profiles and that of the better FCS conferences is extremely vast.....

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/f1/3a/c3/f13ac3b3e04642c14d7d41dfe8d7f8f8.jpg

http://stadiumsusa.com/images/thumbs/3ef3a853b0a58155622ac557b0c3f2258188efc2.jpg-590x1000.png

http://image1.stadiumjourney.com/images/stadiums/1416_Pregame_Inside_Fargodome.jpg

Go back to the potatoes rational.....the G5 schools that are head/shoulders above their peers will shuffle.....

DIII UW-Whitewater

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0914/play_stadium1_600.jpg

Anyone can play the stadium game.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
November 7th, 2014, 02:40 PM
The stadium game really works with the AAC, MWC, BYU, ND, Army and Navy. It's night and day....

The problem is the teams that are in the Sun Belt and, minus a few schools, CUSA. They are the Valpo's, Marist's, Campbell's, Davidson's of FCS. The biggest difference is the latter are forced to be where they are because of the Dayton rule. The former have decided to be where they're at.... xdrunkyx

Ultimately, I think nothing really happens. Although, I'd like to see S. Miss and Marshall in the AAC and UTEP and Rice to the MWC....

Sycamore62
November 7th, 2014, 03:43 PM
So, here's how I think I'm gonna look at it..i posted this on our forum...

I'm going to step back for one moment.

I am now going to read this article like I would if I read something like this:

"US facing future where Ebola is everywhere."

Ya, maybe? Probably not. How about this one after the BigTen's commissioner/president or king whatever's comments regarding paying players.

"Northwestern players union victory takes first step to BigTen's move to D3 football"

bonarae
November 7th, 2014, 06:03 PM
How many more times will schools say "enough" of the issues surrounding their football programs and the trends before the NCAA steps in and stops the bleeding?

catamount man
November 7th, 2014, 09:46 PM
I hate the P5 with a passion and their greed and ESPN is RUINING college football. If FCS schools disappear, I mean all of them drop football, I will support d2 and d3.

Lehigh'98
November 7th, 2014, 10:08 PM
Don't kid yourself. Five guys are hoarding the Grade A potatoes and leaving the rest to rot. No "better" potatoes are moving from bag to bag.

mmm, 5 Guys has great fries!!

DFW HOYA
November 7th, 2014, 10:09 PM
ISU's problem is not football but Terre Haute. There are no jobs there, and those that leave aren't coming back to Memorial Stadium on a Saturday afternoon.

Lehigh Football Nation
November 8th, 2014, 12:29 AM
Why? It's worked out better than their wildest dreams at Hofstra and Northeastern. After dropping football, their basketball teams have lived exclusively in the land of milk and honey; velvet ropes part, women swoon, and the athletic departments are flush with money.

You forgot all those national championships and the endorsement deals.

Sycamore62
November 8th, 2014, 10:40 AM
ISU's problem is not football but Terre Haute. There are no jobs there, and those that leave aren't coming back to Memorial Stadium on a Saturday afternoon.

That could be said about a lot of FCs schools