Has the Ivy League ever been this good and this bad simultaneously in the FCS era?

[Sader87]

Harvard, Dartmouth and Yale appear to be pretty good squads this year. Depending on your East coast bias, all 3 are probably in the Top 30 or so teams in the FCS this year so far. Princeton, while being humiliated yesterday, is decent this year too,

Brown and Penn are down but not anywhere near as down as Cornell and Columbia seem to be this season.

My query, is this about as bifurcated the IL has evah been since it went 1-AA in 1982?

Follow-up queries, is this a one year phenomenon or are we likely to see more of the same moving forward? This can't be good overall for the Ancient VIII, can it?

[bonarae]

I am not sure if this is only a one year phenomenon. The bottom half may have new coaches next season.


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[bulldog10jw]

Well, since Columbia has been consistently bad forever it seems and Cornell, while not as bad, has very few Ivy titles ( 3 maybe), the bottom two has been established since the league started in 1956.

In those days, Brown and Penn were also consistently bad, but with good coaching and, especially at Penn, a "favorable" admissions policy, they have both been pretty consistent winners for a while.

Dartmouth, Yale, and Princeton, the top teams in the early days have had their ups and downs since the 80's and Harvard in the 2000's has shown that they recruit better than anyone.

To answer the question, except for the bottom two, I don't see a pattern. It wasn't that long ago that Dartmouth was 0-10, Princeton, 1-9, and Yale 2-8.

As far as moving forward, Harvard should and will maintain its recruiting edge, but the other five not in New York state will trade places over the years from 2nd place to 6th with the occasional upset and championship for each, IMO.

[Ivytalk]

The Ivies are cyclical, maybe more so than most conferences. The last 15 years have been good for Harvard in terms of overall record, but it has won only four outright titles and shared two others during that time. Penn has won six outright. When I was an undergrad, Yale and Dartmouth were usually the teams to beat.

[bulldog10jw]

The Ivies are cyclical, maybe more so than most conferences. The last 15 years have been good for Harvard in terms of overall record, but it has won only four outright titles and shared two others during that time. Penn has won six outright. When I was an undergrad, Yale and Dartmouth were usually the teams to beat.

I would have guessed more for Harvard. Maybe because of the record against Yale.

[Sader87]

It just seemed like a more balanced league when I was growing up (born in the early 60s)....Dartmouth was always good but so was Brown and Yale in the 1970s. Cornell had the Marinaro teams, Harvard was usually good etc.

Just would like to see a more balanced Ivy overall....bettah for both the league and FCS football in general.

[Ivytalk]

It's theoretically possible for there to be a four-way tie for the Ivy title if four teams finish with a 4-3 league mark and the other four finish 3-4. That's never happened. In fact, the last time three teams shared an Ivy title with two league losses was in 1982, when Harvard, Dartmouth and Penn each finished 5-2 in the league.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I was discussing with my father, a Dartmouth guy, this very thing on the way home from the Lehigh game - the amount of parity from 2-7 in the IL. Harvard is always in the discussion. Columbia, basically, isn't. For the last decade, all of 2-7 have had their moments, and also won IL titles: Princeton, Brown, Penn have, Cornell (I think) came close once or did win, Yale has had some very good teams that were in it until the final weekend, and now, finally, Dartmouth is competing.

I don't think you can say that of any other conference in FCS in terms of competitveness. All the others have dynasties and are "top-heavy". The CAA has come the closest to being not "top-heavy" but also have had teams that have no chance year in and year out, like Georgia State and URI.

[Go Green]

It's theoretically possible for there to be a four-way tie for the Ivy title if four teams finish with a 4-3 league mark and the other four finish 3-4. That's never happened.

The closest it came was 1995. But Princeton's Steve Tosches established himself as the anti-Tom Osborne by elected to kick a field goal deep in Dartmouth territory instead of go for it with a few seconds left. The kick was good, and the game ended in a 10-10 tie.

Had Princeton tried for a touchdown, and Dartmouth stopped them, Princeton, Dartmouth, Cornell, and Penn would have finished 5-2. Instead, Princeton took the title with a 5-1-1 record, Penn and Cornell finished 5-2, and Dartmouth 4-2-1.

It was the last tie in the history of college football. Overtime rules went into effect the following season.

[Go Green]

I was discussing with my father, a Dartmouth guy, this very thing on the way home from the Lehigh game - the amount of parity from 2-7 in the IL. Harvard is always in the discussion. Columbia, basically, isn't. For the last decade, all of 2-7 have had their moments, and also won IL titles: Princeton, Brown, Penn have, Cornell (I think) came close once or did win, Yale has had some very good teams that were in it until the final weekend, and now, finally, Dartmouth is competing.



It's been a while since Cornell has been a factor in the Ivy. Their last title was 1990. And if they've taken second in the 2000s, I'm not recalling it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's been a while since Cornell has been a factor in the Ivy. Their last title was 1990. And if they've taken second in the 2000s, I'm not recalling it.

Looking at the records I see that I was overstating things a little. A couple of those Knowles teams that went 6-4 and 5-5 were OK, but none of them swept H-Y over that timeframe. Incidentally, Cornell every single year has a horrible schedule - they historically play H-Y in the first four games every single year. If they don't sweep them both, they almost certainly can't win the Ivy.

[NY Crusader 2010]

URI would be the CAA's Columbia equivalent. Only team that hasn't been relevant even for a year, since the Yankee days. Everyone else (not counting the newbies SBU, Albany and Elon) had their day over the past twenty years. Even Northeastern and Hofstra had titles and playoff runs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Worth mentioning in this thread is that the IL champion doesn't get to play in the playoffs. Most years people don't care that much, but this season it's a crying shame that they don't because the IL champion and one at-large team would really make an impression, I feel in the playoffs this season. A 10-0 Harvard travelling to UNH or hosting a team like Richmond or William and Mary would be a really great game, IMO.

[Green26]

I was discussing with my father, a Dartmouth guy, this very thing on the way home from the Lehigh game - the amount of parity from 2-7 in the IL. Harvard is always in the discussion. Columbia, basically, isn't. For the last decade, all of 2-7 have had their moments, and also won IL titles: Princeton, Brown, Penn have, Cornell (I think) came close once or did win, Yale has had some very good teams that were in it until the final weekend, and now, finally, Dartmouth is competing.

I don't think you can say that of any other conference in FCS in terms of competitveness. All the others have dynasties and are "top-heavy". The CAA has come the closest to being not "top-heavy" but also have had teams that have no chance year in and year out, like Georgia State and URI.

What class was your dad?

[NY Crusader 2010]

Worth mentioning in this thread is that the IL champion doesn't get to play in the playoffs. Most years people don't care that much, but this season it's a crying shame that they don't because the IL champion and one at-large team would really make an impression, I feel in the playoffs this season. A 10-0 Harvard travelling to UNH or hosting a team like Richmond or William and Mary would be a really great game, IMO.

I think the Ivy League champ would put up a good fight most years if not win a game or two. All speculation for the foreseeable future. When was the last time Harvard played a scholarship team? Northeastern in '04?

[Pard4Life]

Brown tied for the title in 2006 or 2005.

You could make the pairity argument with the PL to some extent too, with Georgetown being our Columbia. Bucknell was usually in the hunt in the late 90s and early 2000s.

[Pard4Life]

I think the Ivy League champ would put up a good fight most years if not win a game or two. All speculation for the foreseeable future. When was the last time Harvard played a scholarship team? Northeastern in '04?

Lafayette, last week.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the Ivy League champ would put up a good fight most years if not win a game or two. All speculation for the foreseeable future. When was the last time Harvard played a scholarship team? Northeastern in '04?

HC in 2014... xlolx

Seriously, I think you're right, Northeastern was the last full-scholly team they played.

Which brings up another point - if the IL simply accepted a playoff bid, it would allow great regional matchups to return to Harvard's schedule. A game with UNH is a no-brainer for regional interest, and Villanova, Richmond and W&M are high-academic institutions (and it's not like UNH has bad academics, either).

[Sader87]

Harvard has ducked just about any very good team during Murphy's tenure....it's really a shame and as others and myself have mentioned here, it's hurt the FCS-level overall tangentially as no other FCS cconference has the national cachet that the Ivy does.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What class was your dad?

Class of 1961

[Ivytalk]

Harvard has ducked just about any very good team during Murphy's tenure....it's really a shame and as others and myself have mentioned here, it's hurt the FCS-level overall tangentially as no other FCS cconference has the national cachet that the Ivy does.


Murphy has had opportunities at other schools since turning the Harvard program around. Delaware, Navy (FBS) and Indiana University (FBS) come to mind. But he's now in a comfort zone and doesn't feel a need to rock the boat with aggressive OOC scheduling. It is a shame, from that perspective. But the man can recruit, and 13 straight seven-plus win seasons are a testament to that. He won't be around forever -- he's 62 now -- but we'll have to wait to see who his successor is before venturing a guess as to future OOC opponents.

[bonarae]

Worth mentioning in this thread is that the IL champion doesn't get to play in the playoffs. Most years people don't care that much, but this season it's a crying shame that they don't because the IL champion and one at-large team would really make an impression, I feel in the playoffs this season. A 10-0 Harvard travelling to UNH or hosting a team like Richmond or William and Mary would be a really great game, IMO.

I really thought of this as a big what if. It is the reason why the NESCAC leading team doesn't get ranked in the D3 football poll. The talent pool of that is rather soft. But the Ivies are a big miss from the playoff scene. That's why I have to move on to ETSU to even get a glance of playoffs. xsmhx


HC in 2014... xlolx

Seriously, I think you're right, Northeastern was the last full-scholly team they played.

Which brings up another point - if the IL simply accepted a playoff bid, it would allow great regional matchups to return to Harvard's schedule. A game with UNH is a no-brainer for regional interest, and Villanova, Richmond and W&M are high-academic institutions (and it's not like UNH has bad academics, either).

Well, ask Murphy...


Harvard has ducked just about any very good team during Murphy's tenure....it's really a shame and as others and myself have mentioned here, it's hurt the FCS-level overall tangentially as no other FCS cconference has the national cachet that the Ivy does.

I think Murphy has to retire at some point for us to reconsider the Ivies' real position in football. I will hide in ETSU's shadow until the time Harvard names a new coach from the NESCAC or another D3. xrolleyesx


Murphy has had opportunities at other schools since turning the Harvard program around. Delaware, Navy (FBS) and Indiana University (FBS) come to mind. But he's now in a comfort zone and doesn't feel a need to rock the boat with aggressive OOC scheduling. It is a shame, from that perspective. But the man can recruit, and 13 straight seven-plus win seasons are a testament to that. He won't be around forever -- he's 62 now -- but we'll have to wait to see who his successor is before venturing a guess as to future OOC opponents.

I agree with this. I'm 200% done with the Ivies' ignorance of change in college football.

[Crimson Dad Leopard Grad]

Harvard has ducked just about any very good team during Murphy's tenure....it's really a shame and as others and myself have mentioned here, it's hurt the FCS-level overall tangentially as no other FCS cconference has the national cachet that the Ivy does.

I dont have a passionate alumnus bone in this discussion, but why would anyone expect Harvard to schedule an OOC loss into the schedule? I dont think "FCS-level overall tangentially" is part of his performance criteria. Without a playoff seeding at risk, there is no reason.

Alabama plays Florida Atlantic, Southern Miss, Western Carolina this year, Harvard played Holy Cross, Georgetown and Lafayette...same thing.

[Crimson Dad Leopard Grad]

Murphy has had opportunities at other schools since turning the Harvard program around. Delaware, Navy (FBS) and Indiana University (FBS) come to mind. But he's now in a comfort zone and doesn't feel a need to rock the boat with aggressive OOC scheduling. It is a shame, from that perspective. But the man can recruit, and 13 straight seven-plus win seasons are a testament to that. He won't be around forever -- he's 62 now -- but we'll have to wait to see who his successor is before venturing a guess as to future OOC opponents.

Agreed. BTW, he's 58

[Ivytalk]

Agreed. BTW, he's 58

I didn't want to age him prematurely!xlolx I guess that just means four additional years of soft OOC.xrolleyesx

[Ivytalk]

Bonarae, I don't understand why a fan hungry for FCS playoff action would back ETSU, which hasn't even had a FB program for years. That's one reason why I started to follow Georgia Southern when it was still an FCS program. We also had about a dozen other reasons: a group of terrific GSU friends that we met through this board, who happen to have the best tailgate action anywhere!

[bonarae]

Bonarae, I don't understand why a fan hungry for FCS playoff action would back ETSU, which hasn't even had a FB program for years. That's one reason why I started to follow Georgia Southern when it was still an FCS program. We also had about a dozen other reasons: a group of terrific GSU friends that we met through this board, who happen to have the best tailgate action anywhere!

See my thread (about switching FCS loyalties) in the Lounge. I may have to become an FCS generalist if ETSU fails to sustain a winning season after a few years (e.g. HBU, UIW). IDK what the future holds for me here.

[Gordon Shumway]

Harvard, Dartmouth and Yale appear to be pretty good squads this year. Depending on your East coast bias, all 3 are probably in the Top 30 or so teams in the FCS this year so far. Princeton, while being humiliated yesterday, is decent this year too,




I hate to be a skeptic, but how do we know this to be true? I realize Yale beat a bad Army team, but any FBS win is a good win. However the OOC scheduling is usually so bad, all we can judge their records by is an inbred conference schedule. I hate to judge teams by one game, but sometimes that is all you have with this league. I want to see what happens with Harvard/Dartmouth before anointing 3 Ivy teams as pretty good squads. If Harvard hammers Dartmouth, I will give them their due. If Dartmouth beats Harvard, my skepticism will be in full bloom.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

It is the Ivy League. This year, aside from Yale's win over Army, is not all that different. Yale and Dartmouth replace Pennsylvania and Princeton of a few years ago. Columbia and Cornell loiter at the bottom.

[Sader87]

I hate to be a skeptic, but how do we know this to be true? I realize Yale beat a bad Army team, but any FBS win is a good win. However the OOC scheduling is usually so bad, all we can judge their records by is an inbred conference schedule. I hate to judge teams by one game, but sometimes that is all you have with this league. I want to see what happens with Harvard/Dartmouth before anointing 3 Ivy teams as pretty good squads. If Harvard hammers Dartmouth, I will give them their due. If Dartmouth beats Harvard, my skepticism will be in full bloom.

It's one game, so I agree it's tough to do, but I thought Harvard was pretty close to Fordham in terms of how they both played HC. Harvard was definitely the 2nd best team we've played this year imo which included Albany and Dartmouth.

[bulldog10jw]

I thought Harvard was pretty close to Fordham in terms of how they both played HC. Harvard was definitely the 2nd best team we've played this year imo which included Albany and Dartmouth.

Uh oh. Now you did it. You'll be hearing from Go Green about that. :D

[Go Green]

Uh oh. Now you did it. You'll be hearing from Go Green about that. :D

Judging from the Ivy Weekly prediction thread, Sader appears to have plenty of company in his opinion!

Again, we went through this sane thing earlier this year with everyone predicting a Yale victory over Dartmouth. I'm fine with Dartmouth being an underdog. Harvard has had our number for a while and until we can actually beat them, it's hard to take umbrage at predictions for a Crimson victory.

[bulldog10jw]

Judging from the Ivy Weekly prediction thread, Sader appears to have plenty of company in his opinion!

Again, we went through this sane thing earlier this year with everyone predicting a Yale victory over Dartmouth. I'm fine with Dartmouth being an underdog. Harvard has had our number for a while and until we can actually beat them, it's hard to take umbrage at predictions for a Crimson victory.

GG. Dartmouth had a nice win against Yale and is a good team.

However, that win and who predicted what on a football message board before the game. has nothing to do with the game against Harvard and who is predicting what is going to happen this weekend.

But, you know that........I think.

[Ivytalk]

Judging from the Ivy Weekly prediction thread, Sader appears to have plenty of company in his opinion!

Again, we went through this sane thing earlier this year with everyone predicting a Yale victory over Dartmouth. I'm fine with Dartmouth being an underdog. Harvard has had our number for a while and until we can actually beat them, it's hard to take umbrage at predictions for a Crimson victory.

GG, why don't you go on the weekly Ivy thread and post your predictions? None of this passive-aggressive "umbrage" stuff. Take a flyer. It's for entertainment only.

[Ivytalk]

See my thread (about switching FCS loyalties) in the Lounge. I may have to become an FCS generalist if ETSU fails to sustain a winning season after a few years (e.g. HBU, UIW). IDK what the future holds for me here.

Read your thread. With all due respect, I don't understand that perspective. God knows I dump on my alma mater for any number of things, including politics and the FB playoff fiasco, but I can't give up on the football team. Heck, I have cousins on my wife's side who went to Richmond, but I couldn't imagine following the Spidahs out of a fit of pique at the Ivy presidents.

[Go Green]

GG, why don't you go on the weekly Ivy thread and post your predictions? None of this passive-aggressive "umbrage" stuff. Take a flyer. It's for entertainment only.

For you, Ivytalk--anything!

:)

[Ivytalk]

For you, Ivytalk--anything!

:)

Just wanted to get your picks on the record! Good luck on Saturday. Wish I could go, but I have other commitments this weekend.