Is Field Hockey a model format for I-AA playoffs?

[aceinthehole]

The issue of I-AA football AQs is a constant debate, but I just wanted to share the NCAA's format for D-I Field Hockey.

Total number of participating teams: 78
Number of conferences: 11 (no Indy schools)
Championship Bracket: 16 teams
Format: 10 AQs; 2 PIGs; and 8 at-large selcetions

Of the 11 conferences, 6 have AQ spots in the championship bracket. They are the America East, Big East, Big Ten, CAA, Ivy, and Patriot League champs.

Four conferences have an AQ for 2 Play-in games. They are the A-10, NEC, North Pacific, and MAC. Only the 2 winners move to the championship bracket.

Only 1 conference does not have an AQ - the ACC! However, this conference has earned 5 of the 8 at-large spots available in the 2006 tourney.

http://web1.ncaa.org/ssLists/sportByInst.do?sport=WFH&division=1
http://www.ncaasports.com/fieldhockey/womens/story/9785665
http://www.ncaasports.com/fieldhockey/womens/brackets/straight16_dyn/2006/DI

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Why can't the the NCAA award an additional AQ and a PIG for football? If the 2 conferences designated for the PIG are pre-determined (say the NEC and MEAC), then the teams could schedule accordingly to have the PIG played prior to selection Sunday.

Why is it so hard to expand the playoffs? How does this format hurt the quality of the 16-team bracket? The number of at-larges selections does not increase or water down the current format. In fact by adding AQs and PIGs you strengthen the quality of AQ teams in the first round!

[89Hen]

Why can't the the NCAA award an additional AQ and a PIG for football?... Why is it so hard to expand the playoffs?
Football games are a week apart. The entire field hockey tourney takes two weekends.

[aceinthehole]

Football games are a week apart. The entire field hockey tourney takes two weekends.

The 16 team bracket is the current I-AA format - that doesn't change the arguement.

This is about selection. If the proposed PIG (or games) were played on the Saturday before selection Sunday it does not alter the season for most teams, only those conferences predetermined to be in the PIG.

[89Hen]

The 16 team bracket is the current I-AA format - that doesn't change the arguement.

This is about selection. If the proposed PIG (or games) were played on the Saturday before selection Sunday it does not alter the season for most teams, only those conferences predetermined to be in the PIG.
Not sure I follow. So the conferences that have the PIG's would have to either have no bye weeks or play 10 games? Also, you can't have more than half the number of total teams get autos in the football playoffs according to NCAA rules. Having a PIG only creates one more spot (because the winner is one of the 16) so unless you create two PIG's you can't have more than 8 autos.

[aceinthehole]

Not sure I follow. So the conferences that have the PIG's would have to either have no bye weeks or play 10 games? Also, you can't have more than half the number of total teams get autos in the football playoffs according to NCAA rules. Having a PIG only creates one more spot (because the winner is one of the 16) so unless you create two PIG's you can't have more than 8 autos.

Well yes, the 2 conferences designated to the PIG must schedule accordingly.

I pretty sure officially the "AQs" designated for the PIGs don't count against the total spots in the championship bracket. The NCAA doesn't really recognize this as a "tourney" appearance, so its still just 8 AQs and 8 at-large selections for the championship bracket. For example, Monmouth didn't win an NCAA tourney game last year in the Big Dance, they qualified through a PIG win over Hampton.

Really what this is proposing is that the "weakest" AQs (predetermied conferences) would have to earn their way to the championship bracket. So let's say the NEC was awarded an AQ (for a new total of 9) and the committiee designated that the NEC and MEAC reps would meet on the last Saturday before selection. Only the winner truly "qualifies" for the 1 of the 8 AQ spots in the championship. The remaining 7 AQ have direct access to the championship bracket.

[89Hen]

Well yes, the 2 conferences designated to the PIG must schedule accordingly.
I think that's your biggest hurdle. For arguements sake let's say the OVC, MEAC, NEC and PFL were selected for PIG's... that's a lot of teams "scheduling accordingly" so that two more teams can make the playoffs. I'd believe the NEC and PFL wouldn't mind too much though. Again, for field hockey, not a big deal as it would seem they play three games a week all year. Adding a PIG date is not an issue at all.

[BlueHen86]

Well yes, the 2 conferences designated to the PIG must schedule accordingly.

I pretty sure officially the "AQs" designated for the PIGs don't count against the total spots in the championship bracket. The NCAA doesn't really recognize this as a "tourney" appearance, so its still just 8 AQs and 8 at-large selections for the championship bracket. For example, Monmouth didn't win an NCAA tourney game last year in the Big Dance, they qualified through a PIG win over Hampton.

Really what this is proposing is that the "weakest" AQs (predetermied conferences) would have to earn their way to the championship bracket. So let's say the NEC was awarded an AQ (for a new total of 9) and the committiee designated that the NEC and MEAC reps would meet on the last Saturday before selection. Only the winner truly "qualifies" for the 1 of the 8 AQ spots in the championship. The remaining 7 AQ have direct access to the championship bracket.
Schedule wise you could work it out. The biggest obstacle, as I see it, are that you would either have to lower the number of at large qualifiers from 8 (power conferences wouldn't agree) or require conferences with an existing auto bid to agree to your plan.
Why would the MEAC agree to a play in game when they already have an auto bid?
I'd rather they expand the playoffs to 32 teams but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've always liked this concept of expanding the playoffs through a PIG, but some structural problems arise from this - namely, You have to add another week to the playoffs. This is unlikely to ever happen, but I think my solution is an elegant way around a host of different problems.

I've thought that the best way to do this is to have certain leagues play 10-game seasons (the PIG conferences) and others play 11 (the others).

For example:
Patriot and Ivy play 10 games, play in 1 PIG
NEC and PFL play 10 games, play in 1 PIG
SWAC and MEAC play 10 games, play in 1 PIG
2 at-large from Big South/MAAC/PL/IVY/NEC/PFL/SWAC/MEAC play in 1 PIG

Imagine this type of scenario this year, 11/18:

PIG1: Lehigh vs. Princeton (Academic Classic, and a rematch)
PIG2: Albany vs. San Diego (Gridiron Classic as it was meant to be)
PIG3: Alabama A&M vs. Hampton (Black College National Championship)
PIG4: Coastal Carolina vs. Yale (a good matchup of at-larges)

Then, here are some potential second-round matchups (guessing):

Albany/USD winner at #3 Montana
McNeese St at Cal Poly

Lehigh/Princeton winner at #2 UMass
Eastern Illinois at Illinois St

AAMU/Hampton winner at #3 Youngstown State
New Hampshire at Furman

CCU/Yale winner at #1 Appalachian St
UNI at JMU

IMVHO, a pretty neat playoff setup.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Schedule wise you could work it out. The biggest obstacle, as I see it, are that you would either have to lower the number of at large qualifiers from 8 (power conferences wouldn't agree) or require conferences with an existing auto bid to agree to your plan.
Why would the MEAC agree to a play in game when they already have an auto bid?
I'd rather they expand the playoffs to 32 teams but I don't see that happening any time soon.

By NCAA rule if you expand autobids you need to expand at-larges by the same amount. If you add four auto's, you need four at-larges.

As for the MEAC agreeing to the PIG, the only way it would (maybe) be palatable would be as a part of a HBCU championship game with the SWAC. Maybe the same with the Patriot and Ivy. Like I mentioned before, highly unlikely to ever happen.

[BlueHen86]

By NCAA rule if you expand autobids you need to expand at-larges by the same amount. If you add four auto's, you need four at-larges.

As for the MEAC agreeing to the PIG, the only way it would (maybe) be palatable would be as a part of a HBCU championship game with the SWAC. Maybe the same with the Patriot and Ivy. Like I mentioned before, highly unlikely to ever happen.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of the the NCAA rule.

[89Hen]

I've thought that the best way to do this is to have certain leagues play 10-game seasons (the PIG conferences) and others play 11 (the others).

For example:
Patriot and Ivy play 10 games, play in 1 PIG
NEC and PFL play 10 games, play in 1 PIG
SWAC and MEAC play 10 games, play in 1 PIG
2 at-large from Big South/MAAC/PL/IVY/NEC/PFL/SWAC/MEAC play in 1 PIG
That's 60 teams that have to drop down to 10 games. :eyebrow:

[danefan]

Not necessarily. Why can't the teams not in the PIGs have alternate games scheduled? You make the PIG game you play there. You don't make it you go somewhere else and play your 11th game.

[89Hen]

Not necessarily. Why can't the teams not in the PIGs have alternate games scheduled? You make the PIG game you play there. You don't make it you go somewhere else and play your 11th game.
xidiotx They would have to be OOC games because you'd have to have finished your conference schedule. You really think anybody would schedule an OOC game with somebody who may no-show? Well, unless you schedule USD. :p

[aceinthehole]

I think that's your biggest hurdle. For arguements sake let's say the OVC, MEAC, NEC and PFL were selected for PIG's... that's a lot of teams "scheduling accordingly" so that two more teams can make the playoffs. I'd believe the NEC and PFL wouldn't mind too much though. Again, for field hockey, not a big deal as it would seem they play three games a week all year. Adding a PIG date is not an issue at all.

Not as big problem as you may think.

NEC teams end their season this Saturday (Nov. 11). They have all played 11 games and the NEC champ will be determined this week. Our rep could easily play a PIG next Saturday (11/18). This was the orginal date for the NEC/PFL Gridiron Classic. First round playoff games would still start as scheduled on Nov. 25.

Some conferences and teams do like the bye week during the season, but look Holy Cross (PL) is finished this Saturday and didn't have a bye yet. Hampton and Morgan State (MEAC) are also finsihed this Saturday.

The only "effort" would be the 2 predetermined conferences set for the PIG would have to end their regular season 1 week early (10 games or no bye). Obvisouly the NEC has no problem with this if it means a chance at the playoffs! Of course the MEAC may not like this proposal, but it is becasue they have been declared the "weakest" of the existing AQs, however this could be reevaluated every 2 years and the OVC or PL could be regulated to the PIG in future years. And since the NEC and MEAC are both East Coast teams, the winner could easily be slotted regionally out East.

My proposal - adding an AQ and a PIG - does the least altering to the current I-AA playoff structure. Only the NEC and MEAC are affected. No current conference loses an AQ. It remains 8 AQ and 8 at-larges spots in the championship bracket! If you instead add 2 new AQs (for the NEC and PFL) and 2 PIGs, only 4 conferences would be affected - NEC, PFL, MEAC, OVC.

I do not think 32 teams is a good idea at all. A 20 or 24 team bracket is another possibility, but that would effect many more teams and scheduling requirements. I am offering compromise between those who don't want to expand the playoffs at all beyond the 16-team bracket and those that want to provided additional access to other conferences.

[aceinthehole]

By NCAA rule if you expand autobids you need to expand at-larges by the same amount. If you add four auto's, you need four at-larges.

As for the MEAC agreeing to the PIG, the only way it would (maybe) be palatable would be as a part of a HBCU championship game with the SWAC. Maybe the same with the Patriot and Ivy. Like I mentioned before, highly unlikely to ever happen.

Yes, you are right, but don't confuse byes with PIGs.

For example the D-II football championship has a 24-team bracket. 16 teams play 8 first round games. The winners then play 8 teams that got first round byes.

The Field Hockey example is a 16-team tourney just like the I-AA playoffs. There are no byes. The PIG is played by the 2 predetermined conference champs. By definition, winning the PIG earns the 8th AQ spot.

[89Hen]

Not as big problem as you may think...
(I went ahead and bolded all the ones from LFN's scenario)

Week 12
8:00 PM Northwestern State at Stephen F. Austin
TBA Western Carolina at #6 Florida
12:00 PM Yale at Harvard
12:00 PM Rhode Island at Northeastern
12:00 PM Hofstra at Massachusetts
12:00 PM New Hampshire at Maine
12:30 PM Columbia at Brown
1:00 PM Delaware State at Howard
1:00 PM Villanova at Delaware
1:00 PM James Madison at Towson
1:00 PM Dartmouth at Princeton
1:00 PM Pennsylvania at Cornell
1:00 PM Central Arkansas at Georgia Southern
1:00 PM Lehigh at Lafayette
1:00 PM Colgate at Bucknell
1:00 PM Tennessee State at Eastern Kentucky
1:00 PM Winston-Salem at Norfolk State
1:00 PM Liberty at Virginia Military
1:00 PM Richmond at William & Mary
1:30 PM Charleston Southern at Coastal Carolina
1:30 PM Wofford at Gardner-Webb
2:00 PM Tennessee-Martin at Murray State
2:00 PM Alcorn State at Jackson State
2:00 PM South Carolina State at North Carolina A&T
2:00 PM Tennessee Tech at Southeast Missouri State
2:05 PM Northern Arizona at Northern Colorado
2:30 PM Prairie View A&M at Alabama A&M
2:30 PM Jacksonville State at Eastern Illinois
3:00 PM Texas State at Sam Houston State
3:05 PM Montana State at Montana
3:30 PM Bethune-Cookman at Florida A&M
4:00 PM Savannah State at Cal Poly
4:00 PM Southern Utah at Southern Illinois
4:05 PM Sacramento State at UC Davis
5:00 PM Austin Peay at Western Kentucky
5:00 PM Texas Southern at Arkansas-Pine Bluff
5:00 PM Citadel at Elon
5:05 PM Weber State at Idaho State
5:35 PM Illinois State at Northern Iowa
7:00 PM South Dakota State at North Dakota State
8:00 PM Nicholls State at McNeese State
8:00 PM Northwestern State at Stephen F. Austin

[aceinthehole]

(I went ahead and bolded all the ones from LFN's scenario)



But you quoted me. We have 2 very different proposals. :nonono2:

My proposal is very clear that it affects only 2 conferences - the NEC and MEAC. That's just 17 teams, of which only 7 MEAC teams have a game schedule for Nov. 18, this season.

I'm sure MEAC fans won't like my idea at all, but a new PIG for the NEC/MEAC champ is a very easy fix to "expand" the playoffs without affecting 90% of I-AA teams. It addresses the NEC repeated request for access to the playoffs. :)

[rmutv]

This is just an isolated case, but I know that Joe Walton actually prefers a 10 game regular season schedule. That's what Robert Morris is gearing up for in 2007 after playing an 11 game schedule this season.

I think a lot of NEC teams would be game if it meant it gave them a chance at the playoffs. I'm sure the PFL would agree as well. I can't begin to surmise what the MEAC or even the OVC would want.

What about the MAAC? Would they be included in this proposed idea? Are they even a viable conference after 2006?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In my scenario, I have the MEAC/SWAC play for an HBCU Championship game before the playoffs. That means moving all the "classic" games like Grambling/Southern, Lehigh/Lafayette, Harvard/Yale to different weeks. A daunting challenge, to say the least (though IMO I think it would benefit I-AA to move these games to 11/11, but that's another thread).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Big South and MAAC could also play a 10-game schedule, but would have to qualify as an at-large bid rather than as an AQ. The trouble is they're 5-team conferences.

[danefan]

xidiotx They would have to be OOC games because you'd have to have finished your conference schedule. You really think anybody would schedule an OOC game with somebody who may no-show? Well, unless you schedule USD. :p


If you have two conferences playing a PIG against each other on a consistent basis (for example NEC v. PFL) then you can schedule cross-conference games with other teams in those conferences. Ie: For example if the GridIron Classic was the PIG this year, the winners of each conference would go the PIG and the second place team from the NEC would play the second place team from the PFL, etc....

When the conference standings are finalized you'll know who you play. I'm not sure what kind of logistical problems this would cause, but it seems that with at least one weeks notice it wouldn't be horrendous.

[89Hen]

the winners of each conference would go the PIG and the second place team from the NEC would play the second place team from the PFL, etc....

When the conference standings are finalized you'll know who you play. I'm not sure what kind of logistical problems this would cause, but it seems that with at least one weeks notice it wouldn't be horrendous.
You're far more optimistic than I on that one. I know in the playoffs we don't know who or where we'll be playing until a week in advance, but remember that attendance for playoffs is WAY down from regular season and these would be basically meaningless games. The game couldn't be a part of your season tix because you wouldn't know it's a home game until the week before. Imagine as an Albany fan you were told on November 19th that you'd be hosting Butler next Saturday in a battle of third place teams. You think anyone's going to show?

[89Hen]

of which only 7 MEAC teams have a game schedule for Nov. 18, this season.
Only 7 of 9? And don't forget that they would have to be OOC games. Many I-AA's play their OOC games early in the season, there'd be a pretty small pool of opponents in the 11th week.

BTW, how did you come up with MEAC anyway? They've won a playoff game more recently than the OVC. :twocents:

[89Hen]

I can't begin to surmise what the MEAC or even the OVC would want.
I can. 11 games followed by an autobid.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can. 11 games followed by an autobid.

Ahem. An HBCU Championship game with the SWAC with the winner going to the playoffs.

[89Hen]

Ahem. An HBCU Championship game with the SWAC with the winner going to the playoffs.
17 of 19 teams would play 10 games. You guys need to stop thinking that anyone outside of the Ivy and a few non-schollies would want to play 10 games a year. I know they voted against adding a 12th, but if you put it up to a vote of going to 10, you'd get trounced.

[danefan]

You're far more optimistic than I on that one. I know in the playoffs we don't know who or where we'll be playing until a week in advance, but remember that attendance for playoffs is WAY down from regular season and these would be basically meaningless games. The game couldn't be a part of your season tix because you wouldn't know it's a home game until the week before. Imagine as an Albany fan you were told on November 19th that you'd be hosting Butler next Saturday in a battle of third place teams. You think anyone's going to show?


Good point on attendance. But for most of the IAA schools that would be in a PIG, attendance would be the least of their worries...because it probably is the least important factor the entire season. Tough to care about attendance when you average 4,000 a game. However, I see your point if your pulling 10,000-15,000 or more a game. Then it would matter. I hope when we build our stadium we have to worry about attendance.xcoffeex

[aceinthehole]

Only 7 of 9? And don't forget that they would have to be OOC games. Many I-AA's play their OOC games early in the season, there'd be a pretty small pool of opponents in the 11th week.

BTW, how did you come up with MEAC anyway? They've won a playoff game more recently than the OVC. :twocents:

Honestly, just from the chatter on this board. Frankly, I don't care who the NEC would face in the PIG, if such a proposal was approved. I think its debatable if the MEAC or OVC champ should be regulated to a PIG. I don't think either conference would like this proposal at all, but it affects the least amount of I-AA teams. This eaiser to pass then wholesale changes to the current structure :twocents:

For logistical reasons the PIG conferences must be predetermained, but it could be evaluated on a every 2 year basis. I also agree 10 game seasons is not an easy sell, but 11 games and no bye week is not that bad and that can be done under my proposal

[89Hen]

This eaiser to pass then wholesale changes to the current structure
We will have to agree to disagree on that. I think going to 24 has a FAR greater chance (and makes more sense) than going to one or two PIG's. But I'm opposed to either right now. The only way I go for playoff expansion is if the Ivy and/or SWAC decided they wanted in too.

And BTW don't forget, going to 24 probably means one extra CAA team each year, so nobody can say my team/conference couldn't benefit from expansion.

[nmatsen]

This argument is very simple. The play-off format is the way it is. Deal with it. "How do I deal with it?" one might ask. Win! Don't play slap dicks! Your in, simple as that. Win, just win!

[danefan]

This argument is very simple. The play-off format is the way it is. Deal with it. "How do I deal with it?" one might ask. Win! Don't play slap dicks! Your in, simple as that. Win, just win!

So we can't come on a message board and speculate and discuss things? sorry sir I won't let it happen again....xidiotx xidiotx

[89Hen]

So we can't come on a message board and speculate and discuss things? sorry sir I won't let it happen again....xidiotx xidiotx
I'll still have discussion with you dane. :D

[aceinthehole]

We will have to agree to disagree on that. I think going to 24 has a FAR greater chance (and makes more sense) than going to one or two PIG's. But I'm opposed to either right now. The only way I go for playoff expansion is if the Ivy and/or SWAC decided they wanted in too.

And BTW don't forget, going to 24 probably means one extra CAA team each year, so nobody can say my team/conference couldn't benefit from expansion.

I respect your opinion, but it goes against the 2 biggest complaints I read when proposing a plan for an NEC access (or any playoff expansion).

1) A 24-team bracket adds a week to the entire playoff schedule. A PIG only adds a week to the conferences delagated to the PIG.

2) Expansion, as you point out, adds at-large bids that may make the regular season less meaningfull and could "weakens" the entire playoff field. Whereas, PIGs for a 16-team bracket maintains 8 at-large bids and really "strenghtens" the AQ teams at the bottom of the bracket.

I know you're opposed to any expansion, but we can probably agree the odds of the Ivy and SWAC participating in the playoffs are slim to none becasue of their respective "academic" and fiscal concerns. :nod:

[89Hen]

we can probably agree the odds of the Ivy and SWAC participating in the playoffs are slim to none becasue of their respective "academic" and fiscal concerns. :nod:
I agree with respect to the SWAC because they have something better to do, but I do think the Ivy will see their hypocracy in letting other sports participate in post season. Remember, they didn't allow freshmen to play but relented on that in the early 90's and relented on having spring practice several years ago too. This too shall come to pass.

[BestOfBreed]

Seems to me the easiest thing to do is reassess the 8 auto-qualifiers based off the previous season conference RPI (they used to do this in baseball before the playoff expansion). The NEC wants an auto-bid then all they have to do is get the conference RPI up to 8th or better.

[UAalum72]

BTW, how did you come up with MEAC anyway? They've won a playoff game more recently than the OVC. :twocents:
OVC is rated above the MEAC and Patriot this year, tho MEAC last won a playoff game in 1999 while the OVC hasn't won since 1996 - no glory either way - all the more reason the auto-bids should be shaken up.

[89Hen]

Seems to me the easiest thing to do is reassess the 8 auto-qualifiers based off the previous season conference RPI (they used to do this in baseball before the playoff expansion). The NEC wants an auto-bid then all they have to do is get the conference RPI up to 8th or better.
Already done. They evaluate the eight every year.

[UAalum72]

What do they use? Are they the same guys that vote Hampton 11th, 12th and 13th in the human polls, even though they're 0-4 in the playoffs, and their only OOC wins are vs. D-II Central State and 3-6 Grambling? Those rankings are the only significant difference between the NEC and MEAC.

[GreenDay17]

I'm in favor of a 24 team field for the playoffs that would include the 8 AQ's and 16 at large selections. Give the 8 AQ's a bye for the first week (making the regular season conference championship meaningful) and play the CS Championship game on Christmas Day where it won't have to compete with any BS Bowl games.

[*****]

... Why is it so hard to expand the playoffs?...Because there's no way to expand another week unless you move the entire season back a week. Especially when the 12th game is most likely voted in come January.

[aceinthehole]

Because there's no way to expand another week unless you move the entire season back a week. Especially when the 12th game is most likely voted in come January.

Not true!

As I explained in this thread, only the 2 desginated PIG conferences would have to finish a week "early," not all I-AA teams.

The season could begin per the current NCAA rules - only the NEC and the other PIG participant would have to play 11 games in 11 weeks (or just 10 games).

My hypothetical proposal would not have changed any scheudling this year, except for 7 MEAC teams by eliminating their bye week.

It just an option for us to consider and debate.

[danefan]

I'll still have discussion with you dane. :D

Thanks Hen...but I don't think I have anything else worthy to add to this.:D