Could UNC Tarheels Athletics Scandal Spread to Ivy League/CAA?

[superman7515]

Just to be clear from the jump, this thread is only about a limited issue of the UNC Tarheel academic scandal. There is a thread here if you want to talk about UNC itself and the academic scandal as it pertains to them...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?162756-UNC-Tarheels-Athletics-Report-Finds-18-Years-of-Academic-Fraud&p=2164920#post2164920

What I am bringing up is two people in influential posts at FCS schools that were directly involved and refused to aid in the investigation.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/us/unc-report-academic-fraud/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


Former head football coach John Bunting admitted that he knew of the paper classes and said that former Director of Football Cynthia Reynolds told him they were part of her strategy to keep players eligible. Reynolds, who is now an academic program coordinator at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, was one of four employees who refused to cooperate with Wainstein's investigation.

The report shows that during Bunting's years as head coach, there was a steady rise of enrollment of football players in the paper classes.


Refused to help in investigation
Folt would not say who was fired or being disciplined. Wainstein, however, did name those who refused to cooperate, as:
-- Octavus Barnes, academic counselor for football 2002-2009.
-- Carolyn Cannon, associate dean and director of academic advising. 1999-2010, who was the principle adviser for the men's basketball team.
-- Cynthia Reynolds, director of football, 2002-2010. She was called a "critical witness."
-- Everett Withers, interim head football coach in 2011. He's now at James Madison University.


I can't imagine an Ivy League school would be happy to hear that one of the academic coordinators at their school was involved in widespread academic fraud in the athletics department of their last job and Everett Withers could be subject to NCAA discipline in his new job at James Madison if there is any evidence found that he actively participated as his predecessors did. He was defensive coordinator under Butch Davis who admitted knowledge of the paper classes and their use in aiding UNC football players, and then replaced Davis for the 2011 season (the paper courses for athletics went from 1993 to 2011, including Withers' season as interim coach). If nothing else, it does give pause as to why only four people refused to cooperate with the investigation. Thoughts?

[rokamortis]

She worked at Cornell at some point before UNC - so someone probably knows the story. Now that she is in the spotlight for not cooperating it will be interesting.

I wonder if it had something to do with the grievance she filed a few years ago: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/11/14/801764/ex-academic-coordinator-files.html

For Withers or really any coach - I think his defense is easy. As a coach he doesn't create classes, assign professors ... etc. That is the academic arm and they are solely responsible for all academics administration. Coaches / athletic department help ensure athletes stay on track and complete their responsibilities but have nothing to do with academic administration. Even if they fully knew it was a sham, they can easily pass it off as something they had no control or responsibility over.

[DFW HOYA]

There's a certain degree of schadenfreude in this discussion in that it is not an "athletics" scandal but an academic problem. These were courses approved by the UNC System and offered to thousands of students at standards below the expectation of the school. Blaming Roy Williams for this is specious.

Many years ago, up the road in Raleigh, Jim Valvano was said to have been told by NC State officials that his job was to coach, their job was to teach, and to essentially stay out of each other's business. That's probably the norm at a lot of places.

[superman7515]

There's a certain degree of schadenfreude in this discussion in that it is not an "athletics" scandal but an academic problem.

No joy from me, I've been following Tar Heels basketball since Jordan. Can't stand the pukie Dukie's and don't want any excuse for Williams' national championships to be vacated as many are suggesting could happen. To say it's not an athletics scandal when people inside the university itself have said they are concerned a dozen teams in men's and women's sports for nearly 20 years may have to vacate victories is a bit insincere. Is there more to it than just the athletics aspect? Absolutely. But this is a college athletics discussion forum and the overall view of the effects on UNC doesn't belong in this section anyway, hence my linking to the other board for that. This is merely to discuss if people feel the refusal to cooperate by Withers and Reynolds are an admission of guilt, what level of culpability/responsibility they have, if there could be repercussions that they face that could affect their current schools (which participate at the FCS level), and how it will, if at all, affect their employment status. Not suggesting anyone should get fired, but as I said, I would imagine that some folks at Cornell may have some legit questions/concerns about Ms. Reynolds being in a position of academic authority.

[IBleedYellow]

This is repeatedly avoiding NCAA sanctions and breaking of rules for more than a decade. The death penalty should seriously be on the table of discussion for basketball and football at UNC. However, neither of those things will happen.

The NCAA isn't going to slap one of it's largest Universities when it comes to Prestige in UNC, and no way they will even try to mess with the Ivies. This will all blow over because the NCAA has no power here.

[Nova09]

This is merely to discuss if people feel the refusal to cooperate by Withers and Reynolds are an admission of guilt, what level of culpability/responsibility they have, if there could be repercussions that they face that could affect their current schools (which participate at the FCS level), and how it will, if at all, affect their employment status. Not suggesting anyone should get fired, but as I said, I would imagine that some folks at Cornell may have some legit questions/concerns about Ms. Reynolds being in a position of academic authority.

I'd imagine it was at the advice of their current employers counsel that they chose not to participate. Likely waiting for the NCAA to come knocking before opening any doors. And I would imagine full cooperation with the NCAA, though that will come with a cost, i.e. full immunity for the individuals/their current employers.

[walliver]

It would bother me to have either of these people at my school without discussing the issue with them directly.

The bottom line would be, did they:
1) Acknowledge the scandal and do nothing, or
2) Leave because of the scandal

I doubt any Ivies have scandalous courses like that.

[Catamount87]

Wasn't Withers the coach that was linked to the pro scout and impermissible benefits issue at UNC?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The NCAA isn't going to slap one of it's largest Universities when it comes to Prestige in UNC, and no way they will even try to mess with the Ivies. This will all blow over because the NCAA has no power here.

First, UNC's prestige is already damaged.

Second, how is this not the NCAA's domain? First of all, the whole reason UNC put this in place anyway is to make their measurable academic numbers look good for the NCAA's metrics, i.e. GSR and (later) APR. One way to game the system is to make a bunch of athletes pass get 2.0 GPAs with bogus classes. And if/when they graduate, then it helps their GSR numbers.

Second, do you honestly think that the state is in any way competent in investigating this? If there's anything that's crystal-clear about the cornucopia of college football scandals it's the inability of state or local law enforcement to effectively prosecute or blow the whistle on systemic cheating or lawbreaking. Jamies Winston/Talahassee, Penn State's scandal, NC's Jim Martin finding "no athletic motive" in his initial stab at the UNC investigation... need I go on? The only way to enforce anything is either through federal law enforcement or the NCAA.

[DFW HOYA]

This is repeatedly avoiding NCAA sanctions and breaking of rules for more than a decade.

What rule was broken?

[bulldog10jw]

I doubt any Ivies have scandalous courses like that.

Not exactly like that, but word was back in the day, when Yale legend Brian Dowling walked into a classroom, all the other students smiled knowing that Brian was famous for "finding" professors whose courses were maybe a little less "challenging" than others that were available.

[IBleedYellow]

First, UNC's prestige is already damaged.

Second, how is this not the NCAA's domain? First of all, the whole reason UNC put this in place anyway is to make their measurable academic numbers look good for the NCAA's metrics, i.e. GSR and (later) APR. One way to game the system is to make a bunch of athletes pass get 2.0 GPAs with bogus classes. And if/when they graduate, then it helps their GSR numbers.

I typed the "no power here" part in error. I should state that the NCAA won't USE any of it's power. They could 100% destroy the University if they saw fit to do so. They won't.


What rule was broken?

Having ineligible players play. Without those "classes" none of those players would have had the GPA in order to actually be academically eligible.

Also, I want to compare this to what happened at the University of Minnesota. They had one person in the athletic department write papers for players (in real classes) over the course of 6 years. UNC ran fake classes and had advisors writing papers for 18 years. Minnesota was also stripped of all NCAA banners and awards for the 6 year period and the 2 years following, were banned from post season play, and docked 16 scholarships over the next four years, and fined $350,000.

Also, here (http://advancingrefor.staging.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf) is a pdf of the report, and I believe that it is highly damning to the school.


What I honestly think will happen to UNC will be this: NCAA is too scared to touch the basketball monolith that is UNC Tarheels basketball, but they will vacate all of the wins from football for all of these years. Thus they will look "clean" to everyone for punishment, however they are clearly doing it upon the wrong sport.


What rules the Ivies broke? Honestly probably none, which is why I wouldn't see the NCAA even breathing in the direction of the Ivies. There is no reason to.

[JMUNJ08]

Wasn't Withers the coach that was linked to the pro scout and impermissible benefits issue at UNC?

If I have it correct, he took over as interim head coach when Butch Davis was at the helm for the pro scout incidents

[Pard4Life]

Cornell IS a state school after all... :D

[AmsterBison]

Even if the NCAA isn't going to do anything, the college involved should have to defend its accreditation.

Seems like UNC probably defrauded the federal government if any of the students taking these bogus courses got aid of any kind... not sure if there'd be any repercussions for that though.

[tribe_pride]

I'd imagine it was at the advice of their current employers counsel that they chose not to participate. Likely waiting for the NCAA to come knocking before opening any doors. And I would imagine full cooperation with the NCAA, though that will come with a cost, i.e. full immunity for the individuals/their current employers.

This is correct. Withers had nothing to gain and everything to lose by cooperating voluntarily since he is not at UNC even if he was completely innocent (and I have no clue either way). Unless forced to comply, no reason for him to say anything to UNC investigators

That said, I assume that Withers had to speak with JMU counsel or administration about what he knew and didn't know.

[Bisonoline]

I think with all of the violations that so many schools have been accused of over the years its almost like we are numb to this stuff. But this goes deep. Wow.

[Green26]

Just to be clear from the jump, this thread is only about a limited issue of the UNC Tarheel academic scandal. There is a thread here if you want to talk about UNC itself and the academic scandal as it pertains to them...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?162756-UNC-Tarheels-Athletics-Report-Finds-18-Years-of-Academic-Fraud&p=2164920#post2164920

What I am bringing up is two people in influential posts at FCS schools that were directly involved and refused to aid in the investigation.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/22/us/unc-report-academic-fraud/index.html?hpt=hp_t2






I can't imagine an Ivy League school would be happy to hear that one of the academic coordinators at their school was involved in widespread academic fraud in the athletics department of their last job and Everett Withers could be subject to NCAA discipline in his new job at James Madison if there is any evidence found that he actively participated as his predecessors did. He was defensive coordinator under Butch Davis who admitted knowledge of the paper classes and their use in aiding UNC football players, and then replaced Davis for the 2011 season (the paper courses for athletics went from 1993 to 2011, including Withers' season as interim coach). If nothing else, it does give pause as to why only four people refused to cooperate with the investigation. Thoughts?

I look at this in a different way. I would ask the question: why would someone who has left UNC want to participate in the investigation, particularly if they were close to what was going on? What good would come of cooperating?

[Green26]

What is wrong with the paper courses? Are they not just independent study with a paper? I don't understand how the paper courses worked. Is there something wrong with a professor being an easy grader? Just asking. Is there anything horribly wrong with easy courses? Don't know the answers to these questions. Not saying there wasn't academic fraud.

Students other than athletes are took the paper courses, right?

Don't take my questions are condoning what UNC did.

[bonarae]

Even if the NCAA isn't going to do anything, the college involved should have to defend its accreditation.

I was thinking the same way too... the accreditation is also on the line.

[Go Green]

I doubt any Ivies have scandalous courses like that.

And ballet was one of my favorite courses.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/17/nyregion/campus-life-dartmouth-these-athletes-get-up-on-tiptoes-before-the-games.html

:)

[wow]

UNC won't get any serious sanctions from the NCAA on this. The courses were open for any students, the NCAA cares about athletes getting things that aren't available to the regular student body. Like washing a car with an athletic department hose or selling some stuff that you own to get tattoos. Even if they wanted to do something, a scandal involving thousands of students would take a decade for the NCAA to investigate. Want to vacate wins? Better take the time to connect the dots with specific athletes and specific courses. Want to apply the death penalty? You better have all the t's crossed and i's dotted. The big boys will be long gone before any serious sanctions happen.

On top of all that, UNC has done a great job of letting this information trickle out so that by the time of the big reveal nobody cares anymore. There is very little public outrage, mostly academic first folks whose degrees got devalued. The NCAA doesn't care about those people anyway. I will be shocked if anything substantial comes from this.

[Nova09]

What is wrong with the paper courses? Are they not just independent study with a paper? I don't understand how the paper courses worked. Is there something wrong with a professor being an easy grader? Just asking. Is there anything horribly wrong with easy courses? Don't know the answers to these questions. Not saying there wasn't academic fraud.

Students other than athletes are took the paper courses, right?

Don't take my questions are condoning what UNC did.

This gets into the nuance of it, which of course like most issues people don't want to get into because they're either out for blood or blind defenders.

The short answer is: there is nothing wrong with an easy grading professor, or using papers as the sole basis for grades, provided the academic authorities (faculty senate, deans, etc.) approve such a policy.

This case goes far deeper than just "easy" courses, though. In a number of cases, student-athletes were given the exact grade they needed to remain eligible, with no indication that they did any work/the professor made any attempt to grade any work. It was just "Hey this guy needs a B+" "Oh ok, I don't know who he is never met the guy but he is on my enrollment list so here's that B+ he needs."

[PAllen]

I was thinking the same way too... the accreditation is also on the line.

Exactly what I was thinking. The university did a nice job of covering their athletic butts by having the majority of the students enrolled in these classes be non-athletes. That said, the program should immediately have it's accreditation revoked (assuming it ever was accredited). Then you can go after the university as a whole and make them defend their accreditation. This should cost UNC a ton without the NCAA sticking their nose in. At this point, the NCAA is nothing but a hypocritical mess. I see little difference between this and letting a USC QB and Heisman winner play one more season before the NFL draft while having not graduated and openly taking only one ballroom dancing class (not exactly progressing towards his degree).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exactly what I was thinking. The university did a nice job of covering their athletic butts by having the majority of the students enrolled in these classes be non-athletes. That said, the program should immediately have it's accreditation revoked (assuming it ever was accredited).

Here's your problem.

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/


The U.S. Department of Education does not accredit educational institutions and/or programs. However, the Secretary of Education is required by law to publish a list of nationally recognized accrediting agencies that the Secretary determines to be reliable authorities as to the quality of education or training provided by the institutions of higher education and the higher education programs they accredit.

So, who are these "reliable authorities?"


http://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg2.html#U.S.


The United States has no federal Ministry of Education or other centralized authority exercising single national control over postsecondary educational institutions in this country. The states assume varying degrees of control over education, but, in general, institutions of higher education are permitted to operate with considerable independence and autonomy. As a consequence, American educational institutions can vary widely in the character and quality of their programs.

So, who's going to strip UNC's accreditation? North Carolina's state house? Laughable. Local law enforcement? Why would they do that? The DoE? Sorry, not their department. Congress? Have you seen Congress lately?

The only possible punishing body is, whether people want to hear this or not, is the NCAA.

[Green26]

I think UNC will probably get hammered by the ncaa. Academic fraud facilitated by academic advisors and known to some coaches. Lack of institutional control seems to be a slam dunk. Probably vacating of wins/championships if the ncaa can get information that specific athletes should have been ineligible when they played. Don't know the level of detail of the independent report. Don't know how much effort that the ncaa would have to put into digging this deep into the specifics of individual players. UNC is presumably self-reporting and cooperating (at least to some extent). UNC probably has a hotshot ncaa lawyer/firm involved, and guiding them with the ncaa portion.

This is very surprising to me, especially with a respected academic institution like UNC. After the Willingham whistle blower publicity of a year or so ago, I assumed UNC had major problems, but the extent of this seemingly blatant academic fraud and other borderline activity is astounding.

The new UNC chancellor, Carol Folt, came from Dartmouth (biology prof, dean, provost and acting president briefly). Maybe GoGreen can help me on this, but I don't think most of the alums/students at Dartmouth cared much for her. In fact, I think she was considered bad news by many. Here's a blurb (from a respected Dartmouth blog site) on her from spring 2013, which was right before she got the UNC job, I believe.

"Carol Folt has used this entire situation to her own advantage, and in doing so, she willfully distorted the truth. But as a great many members of this community know, Carol Folt and the truth only have a passing relationship, particularly when twisting and inventing facts will help her advance her own ambition. She should be ashamed of herself, as are so many people today in Hanover." http://www.dartblog.com/data/2013/04/010793.php

By hiring the independent investigator and apparently going after this situation hard, she may be cleaning things up, but hopefully she isn't causing almost irreparable damage. My view is that the new Penn St president make bad decisions and made the Penn St situation worse than it had to be. At Penn St, they hired the wrong independent investigator (who acted my like a out-of-control prosecutor) and then rolled over for the ncaa), in my view.

[walliver]

Here's your problem.

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/


There are established accreditation bodies can can act. Losing their accreditation or having to go to a lesser known body would be a big deal.

http://oira.unc.edu/accreditation/


So, who are these "reliable authorities?"


http://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg2.html#U.S.



So, who's going to strip UNC's accreditation? North Carolina's state house? Laughable. Local law enforcement? Why would they do that? The DoE? Sorry, not their department. Congress? Have you seen Congress lately?

The only possible punishing body is, whether people want to hear this or not, is the NCAA.

http://oira.unc.edu/accreditation/

This is the primary accreditation body in the South. It is a well-respected body, and if UNC lost this accreditation, it would be a big deal.
They won't, however, but may well be put on probation for a year or two.

[Go Green]

My gut is that UNC gets probation from its accreditors and that's it.

A DC school got its wrists slapped for some similar shady academic dealings by their own accreditors, but since cleaned up its act.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/29/AR2007062902256.html

And no- I have no persona opinions (positive or negative) to report about Folt. I remember being told that she was not going to be a candidate for the permanent president position at Dartmouth when she took over on an interim basis when Kim bolted for the World Bank, but that's the extent of it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My gut is that UNC gets probation from its accreditors and that's it.

All roads lead to the NCAA being the only way for a school to get any sort of punishment for these actions.

[PAllen]

Here's your problem.

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/



So, who are these "reliable authorities?"


http://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg2.html#U.S.



So, who's going to strip UNC's accreditation? North Carolina's state house? Laughable. Local law enforcement? Why would they do that? The DoE? Sorry, not their department. Congress? Have you seen Congress lately?

The only possible punishing body is, whether people want to hear this or not, is the NCAA.

I assume Middle States, or whoever else has accredited the university.

[PAllen]

http://oira.unc.edu/accreditation/

This is the primary accreditation body in the South. It is a well-respected body, and if UNC lost this accreditation, it would be a big deal.
They won't, however, but may well be put on probation for a year or two.

Sorry, this not Middle States

[AmsterBison]

http://oira.unc.edu/accreditation/

This is the primary accreditation body in the South. It is a well-respected body, and if UNC lost this accreditation, it would be a big deal.
They won't, however, but may well be put on probation for a year or two.

Sorry, when I brought up accreditation, I meant as it applies to the college within UNC that sanctioned that fraud of a course, not the whole university. But, heck, I don't know how accreditation works.

[UAalum72]

http://oira.unc.edu/accreditation/

This is the primary accreditation body in the South. It is a well-respected body, and if UNC lost this accreditation, it would be a big deal.
They won't, however, but may well be put on probation for a year or two.

This would be a parallel to the famous Kentucky-Cleveland State probation quote (http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/11419)

"SACSCOC got so mad at North Carolina, they pulled the accreditation of Brewton-Parker (http://www.sacscoc.org/2014JuneActionsanddisclosurestatements/Brewton-ParkerCollegeappeals.pdf)"

(though not many will be defending B-P)

[Sandlapper Spike]

What is wrong with the paper courses? Are they not just independent study with a paper? I don't understand how the paper courses worked. Is there something wrong with a professor being an easy grader? Just asking. Is there anything horribly wrong with easy courses?

Well, one problem is that the person doing the grading wasn't a professor...