VMI to the Patriot - just out of curiosity

[Go...gate]

With the lengthy thread regarding So Con expansion, and the PL looking for one or more new all-sports members, what do posters (and especially VMI fans) think of this option?

[LUHawker]

With the lengthy thread regarding So Con expansion, and the PL looking for one or more new all-sports members, what do posters (and especially VMI fans) think of this option?

What kind of academic and reputation credentials does VMI have? I think that will be of great importance to the members of the league when considering any expansion

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

With the lengthy thread regarding So Con expansion, and the PL looking for one or more new all-sports members, what do posters (and especially VMI fans) think of this option?

I think it's a possibility. The tie in with Navy and Army would seem to make it more attractive. It would be a haul though from a travel perspective. Trying to get from Lexington, Va to Hamilton, NY or Worcester, MA in the winter would be interesting. I think they are a viable option.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've talked about this on my blog before. Personally I think it's a good fit, but I don't think VMI would go anywhere unless they're pushed. Yeah, it's a long road trip to some of the schools, but Bucknell and Georgetown (and Navy in non-fb sports) aren't far away.

[OL FU]

Would Georgetown be the closest school to VMI?

[Go...gate]

Would Georgetown be the closest school to VMI?

Yes, I think so. There is also Annapolis, not far away from DC.

[DTSpider]

I think that if the PL opens up for scholarships VMI would be a no-brainer. However, I'm not sure that VMI would view a non-scholarship move as acceptable. No real facts, just my impression based on knowing some VMI alumni.

[OL FU]

Yes, I think so. There is also Annapolis, not far away from DC.

I forget about Army and Navy.

[letsgopards04]

I think the PL should stay the way it is. It got it right kicking out Towson.

[LUHawker]

I think the PL should stay the way it is. It got it right kicking out Towson.

Agreed. Unless it is a very good fit, don't force the square peg into the round hole.

[carney2]

I think the PL should stay the way it is. It got it right kicking out Towson.

Disagree - except for the Towson thing of course. The true foundation of this league - Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh - is not strong enough to hold this together against some of the gathering storms. We need new - all sports - members.

[LeopardFan04]

Disagree - except for the Towson thing of course. The true foundation of this league - Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh - is not strong enough to hold this together against some of the gathering storms. We need new - all sports - members.

I agree. With the impending expansion/split? of the CAA in a few years, I think there will be some upheaval. I think what happens all comes back to whether or not we get football scholarships. I think that's the difference between adding maybe a team like Richmond or adding teams currently in non-autobid conferences...

[ngineer]

I agree. With the impending expansion/split? of the CAA in a few years, I think there will be some upheaval. I think what happens all comes back to whether or not we get football scholarships. I think that's the difference between adding maybe a team like Richmond or adding teams currently in non-autobid conferences...

Richmond would be a much better fit than VMIl, but I agree nothing will happen from that direction unless we go to scholarships in football. Otherwise, any expansion would likely involve the absorbsion of an NEC or MAAC member.

[Go...gate]

Richmond would be a much better fit than VMIl, but I agree nothing will happen from that direction unless we go to scholarships in football. Otherwise, any expansion would likely involve the absorbsion of an NEC or MAAC member.

IMO, the PL has to avoid this if at all possible. VMI is a much better fit, for example, than Marist or Duquesne (or even American, for that matter)

[LeopardFan04]

IMO, the PL has to avoid this if at all possible. VMI is a much better fit, for example, than Marist or Duquesne (or even American, for that matter)

I agree with that...would expansion be for all sports? Or would they rather try and pick up a football only member, keeping the 8 teams currently in most nonfootball sports?

[chiapet9]

honestly - VMI just needs to drop down to a D-II status.

[Go...gate]

I agree with that...would expansion be for all sports? Or would they rather try and pick up a football only member, keeping the 8 teams currently in most nonfootball sports?

I think if PL could bring in VMI for all sports, it would make sense. VMI is in the MAAC for Lacrosse and moving to the PL would be a step up. They would be a good fit in basketball.

In looking at the VMI FB media guide, I am intrigued by their football history and frequent games against Lehigh, Army and Navy over the years. In addition, they have played Army and Navy OOC numerous times in basketball, rifle, baseball and other sports. Their student body is 1,200 with about 1/2 from Virginia and the other half from all over the USA and foreign countries.

VMI's academic profile is also strong, especially when you consider the military regimen placed on all cadets.

[Go...gate]

honestly - VMI just needs to drop down to a D-II status.

Why?

[chiapet9]

because they can't win games.

and they're a school with about 1,200 students.

[chiapet9]

i've got nothing against VMI whatsoever - my brother went there.

but i just think that they should start to play some smaller schools and maybe they could win some games. they have a hard time getting kids to go there to play football because their team sucks and they get yelled at because its a military school.

yeah back in the day they used to beat UVA and VT, but that's when those schools were MUCH smaller.

[Go...gate]

i've got nothing against VMI whatsoever - my brother went there.

but i just think that they should start to play some smaller schools and maybe they could win some games. they have a hard time getting kids to go there to play football because their team sucks and they get yelled at because its a military school.

yeah back in the day they used to beat UVA and VT, but that's when those schools were MUCH smaller.

I think they could compete in the Patriot and rebuild their program.

[DFW HOYA]

VMI would be a great addition, especially in sports other than football where the Keydets could play at Annapolis and West Point.

[Leopard's Claw]

Ok, I'll probably get hit from more angles than a french whore for this viewpoint, but here goes; when (and yes, I say when) the PL expands, it'll involve some form of standardization as to which sponsored sports offer scholorships. In turn (or perhaps beforehand), membership will need to be looked at more "globally" than it has in the past. What I mean is this- the PL membership has, for all means & purposes, been a mirror image of the Ivy since its inception as the Colonial in 1988 (meaning Div 1/1AA non-scholorship)....as an aside, for those interested in travel itineraries, the founding membership included Davidson, which is just outside Charlotte.... Evolution of the league has seen a hodgepodge of those offering scholorships in some sports to others offering none at all- yet still maintaining membership, either full field or associate (ie Fordham). I think, for as absurd as this may sound to many, that with scholorships we may need to think quite a bit less like the Ivies do....meaning- look at Richmond, William & Mary, & Villanova.....excellent academic institutions (VERY difficult to get into), but still great athletic programs offering scholorships at the same level/rate as PL schools (this whole diatribe, of course, assumes PL football scholorships coincidewith or come before PL expansion)....My point? Current PL members need to look beyond the "they have the same academic profile as us" theorum, get past the Ivy blueblood associations, and look very closely at other current league profiles....do you really think those lowly academic instituions of the ACC (like UVa, Wake, Duke) have that much of an issue with being in the same league as, say, Miami, Clemson, or NC State? Are William & Mary, Richmond, & Villanova reallly dissatisfied when their in conference opponents are, say, UMass. UNH, or Maine (no NE bias intended)....it just seems that all too often I hear potential PL expansion teams validated or dismissed based on academics alone....and dosn't that mentality in itself perpetuate Artfully Awfull Rotberg-Rothkof's leagacy?

[ngineer]

Ok, I'll probably get hit from more angles than a french whore for this viewpoint, but here goes; when (and yes, I say when) the PL expands, it'll involve some form of standardization as to which sponsored sports offer scholorships. In turn (or perhaps beforehand), membership will need to be looked at more "globally" than it has in the past. What I mean is this- the PL membership has, for all means & purposes, been a mirror image of the Ivy since its inception as the Colonial in 1988 (meaning Div 1/1AA non-scholorship)....as an aside, for those interested in travel itineraries, the founding membership included Davidson, which is just outside Charlotte.... Evolution of the league has seen a hodgepodge of those offering scholorships in some sports to others offering none at all- yet still maintaining membership, either full field or associate (ie Fordham). I think, for as absurd as this may sound to many, that with scholorships we may need to think quite a bit less like the Ivies do....meaning- look at Richmond, William & Mary, & Villanova.....excellent academic institutions (VERY difficult to get into), but still great athletic programs offering scholorships at the same level/rate as PL schools (this whole diatribe, of course, assumes PL football scholorships coincidewith or come before PL expansion)....My point? Current PL members need to look beyond the "they have the same academic profile as us" theorum, get past the Ivy blueblood associations, and look very closely at other current league profiles....do you really think those lowly academic instituions of the ACC (like UVa, Wake, Duke) have that much of an issue with being in the same league as, say, Miami, Clemson, or NC State? Are William & Mary, Richmond, & Villanova reallly dissatisfied when their in conference opponents are, say, UMass. UNH, or Maine (no NE bias intended)....it just seems that all too often I hear potential PL expansion teams validated or dismissed based on academics alone....and dosn't that mentality in itself perpetuate Artfully Awfull Rotberg-Rothkof's leagacy?

The academic profile does have some importance because we all want to be able to recruit from the same pool of candidates (more or less). Plus the league has a formula for admission of players that must fit within a standard deviation of the overall academic profile of the school.

[Pards Rule]

I think the PL should stay the way it is. It got it right kicking out Towson.

AGREED!! I like just having 5 conference games giving plenty of opportunity to play our friends in the Ivy League and to schedule others.

[ngineer]

AGREED!! I like just having 5 conference games giving plenty of opportunity to play our friends in the Ivy League and to schedule others.

Good point, though we have 6 conference games and 5 OOC's. It 's neat being able to get a diversity of opponents such as the Ivy, A-10, an occasional I-A, a SoCon, etc.

[dbackjon]

Good point, though we have 6 conference games and 5 OOC's. It 's neat being able to get a diversity of opponents such as the Ivy, A-10, an occasional I-A, a SoCon, etc.

Of course, it would help if the PL league would actually win a few of the OOC games....:D

[LUHawker]

Of course, it would help if the PL league would actually win a few of the OOC games....:D

Oh come on now, kicking us while we're in a down year! I think if the PL scheduled NAU we'd have some more OOC wins. :smiley_wi

[dbackjon]

Oh come on now, kicking us while we're in a down year! I think if the PL scheduled NAU we'd have some more OOC wins. :smiley_wi

It was too good to pass up xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

And THIS year, NAU would go undefeated in the PL.....

[Fordham]

I don't know enough about VMI but their location bothers me unless the league were to make an effort to develop a true Southern division.

All of this is tempered with the comment that this is coming from a fan/alum of a football-only affiliate member; however, I'm one of those Fordham fans who wishes we would go fully with the PL, so I'll comment nonetheless:

Top of my wish list:

*Villanova
*Richmond
*Hopkins

And some others:

*Northeastern
*Army
*Navy

A bunch of this would require big changes (e.g. - Hopkins committing to I-AA football and finding a way to maintain their lax independence) but none bigger than the league deciding on two critical things:

1) Football schollys

2) Understanding the power that a marketing philosophy of "The Athletic Ivies" or something akin to that could have. Instead of trying to be the next best thing to the most academically elite/athletically disinterested group out there I think there is unlimited potential in becoming the only conference that is both academically elite AND competing at the highest levels in athletics (excepting football). Every school out there wants to be the next Duke or Stanford but it's absurd to think that one could get there. Using a 'rising tide lifts all boats' philosophy of trying to become the first conference to market themselves this way, however, could be done and they would be first to market with that idea. Furthermore, imo, Bucknell's hoops has laid the foundation for this imo since I would argue that the academics are already in place but the ability to win at high levels has been the big question mark. They've at least shown that it could be done and that the resulting exposure is nothing but very, very positive. Now imagine that on a league wide basis.

Not saying that I'm anywhere near holding out hope that they'd take this path but I just wish they would. It could be very powerful imo. It's more realistic to think that they'll come around on the football schollies idea and that we may then have a shot at getting 'Nova and Richmond after making that move.

[Fordham]

The other idea that I think would be interesting would be to try to develop a 2 team/major market approach where you get schools like Richmond, Hofstra and/or Northeastern and you start to develop clear regional rivalries in the league:

HC/Northeastern
Richmond/Gtown
Fordham/Hofstra
B-nell/Colgate
Lehigh/Lafayette

[OL FU]

honestly - VMI just needs to drop down to a D-II status.


You may be right. Someone with a better memory can jump in here, but wasn't the issue with SoCon (1) they wanted to play more of the Virginia rivalries and (2) and probably more importantly, they wanted to move to a different conference in football only in order retool and become competitive again (in other words, they were tired of getting their butts handed to them in the SoCon). And now, they are getting their butts handed to them in the Big South.

VMI has a very long football history but if I was looking for a program to help out my conference in football it would not be VMI. It seems to me that PL has enough problems with a few strong teams and everyone else being very weak. And I am not the pot calling the kettle black, as the SoCon has had similar problems. Hence my objection to the SoCon taking lower level or historically unsuccessful programs.

[chiapet9]

You may be right. Someone with a better memory can jump in here, but wasn't the issue with SoCon (1) they wanted to play more of the Virginia rivalries and (2) and probably more importantly, they wanted to move to a different conference in football only in order retool and become competitive again (in other words, they were tired of getting their butts handed to them in the SoCon). And now, they are getting their butts handed to them in the Big South.

VMI has a very long football history but if I was looking for a program to help out my conference in football it would not be VMI. It seems to me that PL has enough problems with a few strong teams and everyone else being very weak. And I am not the pot calling the kettle black, as the SoCon has had similar problems. Hence my objection to the SoCon taking lower level or historically unsuccessful programs.
xsmileyclapx that sounds about right. i know they had trouble winning games in the SoCon and I think they wanted a chance to "rebuild" their football program. but they at least need to start scheduling schools that they can beat (there are DII/DIII schools in VA). I just think they'd get their clocks cleaned in the PL too - and that doesn't exactly help the competitiveness of the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Top of my wish list:

*Villanova
*Richmond
*Hopkins

And some others:

*Northeastern
*Army
*Navy



Northeastern doesn't fit academically IMO, but the rest sound good to me. Although even Northeastern would provide big challenges to convince them to go to the Patriot.

A/N would be great, of course, but they just don't have the will to go to I-AA/CS because of their unique nature as an institution. They don't mind going to UTEP instead of Holy Cross since they're recruiting people for the Army and Navy, where a nationwide reach is desirable. Competing in PA/DC/NY/Mass doesn't fit that goal for them.

Personally I like VMI a lot as a candidate simply because the Patriot League and SoCon would then share the "Military Classic of the South" versus The Citadel. I feel like the Patriot League should play up their historic rivalries more, and with VMI's rivalry this fits right in. VMI would also gain a lot in all sports with improved basketball and competition with A/N in other sports. With G'Town in football and Navy/American in all other sports, I really don't think geography is too big a deal.

Finally, to those who say VMI can't compete, I disagree. Playing in the Patriot League has the potential to raise their national profile and will improve recruiting. For FB too, don't underestimate the lure of playing for the I-AA playoffs. If they win the league, they get an autobid, something they don't have now.

[OL FU]

Northeastern doesn't fit academically IMO, but the rest sound good to me. Although even Northeastern would provide big challenges to convince them to go to the Patriot.

A/N would be great, of course, but they just don't have the will to go to I-AA/CS because of their unique nature as an institution. They don't mind going to UTEP instead of Holy Cross since they're recruiting people for the Army and Navy, where a nationwide reach is desirable. Competing in PA/DC/NY/Mass doesn't fit that goal for them.

Personally I like VMI a lot as a candidate simply because the Patriot League and SoCon would then share the "Military Classic of the South" versus The Citadel. I feel like the Patriot League should play up their historic rivalries more, and with VMI's rivalry this fits right in. VMI would also gain a lot in all sports with improved basketball and competition with A/N in other sports. With G'Town in football and Navy/American in all other sports, I really don't think geography is too big a deal.

Finally, to those who say VMI can't compete, I disagree. Playing in the Patriot League has the potential to raise their national profile and will improve recruiting. For FB too, don't underestimate the lure of playing for the I-AA playoffs. If they win the league, they get an autobid, something they don't have now.

The left the SoCon (Where they had all that) for the BSouth. :rolleyes:

[Go...gate]

Ok, I'll probably get hit from more angles than a french whore for this viewpoint, but here goes; when (and yes, I say when) the PL expands, it'll involve some form of standardization as to which sponsored sports offer scholorships. In turn (or perhaps beforehand), membership will need to be looked at more "globally" than it has in the past. What I mean is this- the PL membership has, for all means & purposes, been a mirror image of the Ivy since its inception as the Colonial in 1988 (meaning Div 1/1AA non-scholorship)....as an aside, for those interested in travel itineraries, the founding membership included Davidson, which is just outside Charlotte.... Evolution of the league has seen a hodgepodge of those offering scholorships in some sports to others offering none at all- yet still maintaining membership, either full field or associate (ie Fordham). I think, for as absurd as this may sound to many, that with scholorships we may need to think quite a bit less like the Ivies do....meaning- look at Richmond, William & Mary, & Villanova.....excellent academic institutions (VERY difficult to get into), but still great athletic programs offering scholorships at the same level/rate as PL schools (this whole diatribe, of course, assumes PL football scholorships coincidewith or come before PL expansion)....My point? Current PL members need to look beyond the "they have the same academic profile as us" theorum, get past the Ivy blueblood associations, and look very closely at other current league profiles....do you really think those lowly academic instituions of the ACC (like UVa, Wake, Duke) have that much of an issue with being in the same league as, say, Miami, Clemson, or NC State? Are William & Mary, Richmond, & Villanova reallly dissatisfied when their in conference opponents are, say, UMass. UNH, or Maine (no NE bias intended)....it just seems that all too often I hear potential PL expansion teams validated or dismissed based on academics alone....and dosn't that mentality in itself perpetuate Artfully Awfull Rotberg-Rothkof's leagacy?

A few things:

1) Davidson was not a founding member; William and Mary was and balked at no scholarships. Davidson was a shipwreck coming out of the SoCon (much as VMI was when they left the SoCon) and needed a safe harbor. They barely stayed in the PL long enough to change their socks and left to be a I-AA Independent with a "Special Exemption" from the NCAA to stay at Division I-AA in football while playing mostly DIII teams such as Washington & Lee and the University of the South. It should be noted that the NCAA has never again granted such an exemption, and it is also my understanding that Davidson was encouraged to affiliate with the Pioneer League and leave their "Special Exemption" status. That is why the PL should always be appreciative of Towson and Fordham, who have kept the conference viable over the years.

2) At least from the standpoint of this Colgate fan, academics DO matter. I would like to be in a conference with peers of similar academic mission and standing, preferably as all-sports members. VMI fits this profile, as do Richmond and Villanova (though 'Nova is my last choice because their administration publicly looks down on the Patriot League from both an academic and athletic standpoint, which is both stupid and bereft of class). However, VMI is probably the best fit overall due to its existing and potential future relationships with the other conferfence members (who among us would not see a conference with Army, Navy and VMI as not being a "natural").

3) Arthur Rothkopf, like Colgate's George Langdon and Charles "Buddy" Karelis, was an extremist and a always-threatening specter who is thankfully gone (though, as I have posted elsewhere, I am sure he has had a say in the gradual de-emphasis of American's athletics programs). I prefer to think that the more moderate present operational philosophy of the Patriot League is better represented by Colgate's prexy Rebecca Chopp and Lafayette's new president Weiss.