The Citadel and Furman Run The SoCon (So I Hear)

[BearDownMU]

Forum regular, elcid, on another board let me know this earlier today.

19739

The exact quote was:

"The SoCon is our house, run by The Citadel and Furman, and don't forget that. "

So, my question for the class is: Is that true? In all seriousness. Is there a team or teams that "runs" the conference? Forgive my ignorance. I haven't been around long.

[citdog]

It's true. Those two usually get what they want.

[PaladinFan]

You will never hear that publicly stated (outside of fans on a message board). Hard to know.

You can draw your own conclusions, but Furman and the Citadel both joined the conference in 1936. They are both old schools with a lot of financial weight to throw around. The next oldest members are WCU/UTC which joined 40 years later. Outside of Wofford (1997), every other SoCon school joined after 2008.

[OL FU]

It's half truexcoffeex

[walliver]

The departed South Georgia Crackers thought that Wofford ran the SoCon (since the conference HQ wasmoved to Spartanburg shortly after we joined).:)

It should be noted that the three new schools joining 1995-2008 had all been on FU's football schedule in the years immediately preceding their invitations (not that that will help Gardner-Webb or PC).

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Consider the schools that were added to replace the 5 recent departures and those conspicuously not considered for membership.

I've said before that if that the fans of the current SoCon are happy with where the league in it's current state then who am I to judge? But no one can deny that the SoCon's thought process with new membership isn't conventional

[walliver]

I guess the real proof is that VMI was invited back.
With Elon leaving and WCU improving, the Citadel needed to restart the bromance and have an easy win on the schedule.
Although to be honest there was also support from Wofford's athletic department (our AD is a Citadel grad).

[citdog]

I guess the real proof is that VMI was invited back.
With Elon leaving and WCU improving, the Citadel needed to restart the bromance and have an easy win on the schedule.
Although to be honest there was also support from Wofford's athletic department (our AD is a Citadel grad).

The scheduling issues that 'The Military Classic of the South' was having due to VMI being in another league was the driving force. VMI also has pretty good basketball and baseball is no slouch either.

[PaladinFan]

Consider the schools that were added to replace the 5 recent departures and those conspicuously not considered for membership.

I've said before that if that the fans of the current SoCon are happy with where the league in it's current state then who am I to judge? But no one can deny that the SoCon's thought process with new membership isn't conventional

I personally think if Jacksonville State would have quit being so "will they/won't they" on moving to the FBS, they would already be in the SoCon. Coastal has good athletics, but outside of that it makes extremely little sense to add another South Carolina school and no new markets.

As with all things, there is the on-field component and the off-field component.

[superman7515]

Coastal has good athletics, but outside of that it makes extremely little sense to add another South Carolina school and no new markets.

No offense, but it's not like tv markets have mattered much to the SoCon, or FCS as a whole.

[Mocs123]

They have a lot of pull from what I hear but don't really know for sure. I do know that when App, GSU, and Elon left citadel wanted VMI and got them although at least from my perspective they weren't that appealing to other members. Of course Chattanooga wanted ETSU back and Samford a few years ago.

I was very disappointed with the lack of a strong football school to replace App or GSU. I wanted either Jacksonville State (which may not have been interested and nobody else in the conference other than Samford would have wanted) or coastal Carolina (which citadel and perhaps Furman strongly opposed).

I just felt like we replaced historically our two best (and best known) football programs with two start ups and a middle of the pack big south team. One start up and one established top 25 program would have made made more sense.

[rokamortis]

They have a lot of pull from what I hear but don't really know for sure. I do know that when App, GSU, and Elon left citadel wanted VMI and got them although at least from my perspective they weren't that appealing to other members. Of course Chattanooga wanted ETSU back and Samford a few years ago.

I was very disappointed with the lack of a strong football school to replace App or GSU. I wanted either Jacksonville State (which may not have been interested and nobody else in the conference other than Samford would have wanted) or coastal Carolina (which citadel and perhaps Furman strongly opposed).

I just felt like we replaced historically our two best (and best known) football programs with two start ups and a middle of the pack big south team. One start up and one established top 25 program would have made made more sense.

Calling VMI a middle of the pack Big South team is very generous.

[OL FU]

They have a lot of pull from what I hear but don't really know for sure. I do know that when App, GSU, and Elon left citadel wanted VMI and got them although at least from my perspective they weren't that appealing to other members. Of course Chattanooga wanted ETSU back and Samford a few years ago.

I was very disappointed with the lack of a strong football school to replace App or GSU. I wanted either Jacksonville State (which may not have been interested and nobody else in the conference other than Samford would have wanted) or coastal Carolina (which citadel and perhaps Furman strongly opposed).

I just felt like we replaced historically our two best (and best known) football programs with two start ups and a middle of the pack big south team. One start up and one established top 25 program would have made made more sense.

I think people miss the point. The new members were invited for one main reason in my humble opinion - stability. We were looking for schools that would be long term members.

Jacksonville State wanted to join a decade ago and we didn't invite. That in my opinion was a mistake. Jacksonville State probably doesn't want to join now and because of their interest in moving to FBS we shouldn't invite them.

But honestly, if anyone can't see the conference was looking for long term members, then there is no point in looking.

To the question which is kinda silly. The two members with the longest tenure certainly have substantial influence and they should. But let's face it, after you exercise your influence, each school as a vote.

[BearDownMU]

You're also talking just in terms of football. I know that is the flagship sport, but there others that matter. We play pretty decent basketball and baseball over in Macon.

[OL FU]

You're also talking just in terms of football. I know that is the flagship sport, but there others that matter. We play pretty decent basketball and baseball over in Macon.

Correct.

The SoCon generally has tried to maintain a balance between small and large, public and private. The last round did the same thing. two small, one large. One private, two publics. Most importantly, as I said, schools that will stay. The SoCon has a long history and for the most part the members stay for a while. In the history since the ACC split, I can only think of two schools that didn't make it 15 years and that was Elon and East Carolina.

[rokamortis]

Correct.

The SoCon generally has tried to maintain a balance between small and large, public and private. The last round did the same thing. two small, one large. One private, two publics. Most importantly, as I said, schools that will stay. The SoCon has a long history and for the most part the members stay for a while. In the history since the ACC split, I can only think of two schools that didn't make it 15 years and that was Elon and East Carolina.

While VMI (and the Citadel) is a public institituion, it looks and feels much more like a private institution. Smallish enrollment, larger endowment, alumni giving, strong academics, strong traditions, similar values, etc. I don't think you can say VMI looks anything like most public schools or even the public schools in the SoCOn that aren't military academies. They appear to be more similar to the private schools. Did you really trade Georgia Southern or App State for a similar institution in VMI? The answer is no.

[Eagle22]

I personally think if Jacksonville State would have quit being so "will they/won't they" on moving to the FBS, they would already be in the SoCon. Coastal has good athletics, but outside of that it makes extremely little sense to add another South Carolina school and no new markets.

As with all things, there is the on-field component and the off-field component.

Sounds like some revisionist history there PaladinFan, because in the late 90's/early 2000's Jacksonville State was quite interested in SoCon membership but was rebuffed, by some measure, due to academic scrutiny by several of the schools still in the league. Was it enough of a voting bloc to keep them out ? That's why they moved to the OVC from the Southland, because they couldn't get into the SoCon. Now, clearly fans don't make these decisions but in that same time span many of the Furman fans were very vocal about not adding Jacksonville State. Georgia Southern and Chattanooga had always strongly supported their addition, but that maintaining that public/private balance was more important to the league. You have to remember that at that time it was before the exodus of VMI and ETSU.

As for adding a new team in South Carolina, it would only make sense to add Coastal Carolina for the SoCon as it would further consolidate travel for a league that seems intent on keeping down costs for it's members.

Those ships have sailed for the SoCon, and the decisions influenced by Furman, The Citadel and others has absolutely shaped the conference to where it is today. Competitively, it isn't nearly as strong as it could have been.

[OL FU]

While VMI (and the Citadel) is a public institituion, it looks and feels much more like a private institution. Smallish enrollment, larger endowment, alumni giving, strong academics, strong traditions, similar values, etc. I don't think you can say VMI looks anything like most public schools or even the public schools in the SoCOn that aren't military academies. They appear to be more similar to the private schools. Did you really trade Georgia Southern or App State for a similar institution in VMI? The answer is no.


That's not the question and my answer referred to the long term, not just the recent transgression. The question is their a reasonable substitute. and for the purposes of longevity, rivalries, etc the substitution was just fine. One might ask why not CCU, although I am not sure what CCU's interest would have been. In my opinion, I have no problem with another S. Carolina school especially one that isn't like the other members. I personally would have loved CCU, but, they ask me and as I said not sure what the interest would have been.

Outside of CCU, I can't think of a college of size, that would have said yes or would have been ask. AS I said, JSU at this point wouldn't accept nor would they have been offered because of their hinted at move up.

[Milktruck74]

I like the current conference footprint. Just for laughs, lets talk about expanding to 12 FB teams...who are the next 3 (considering ETSU is #9) in line?

[OL FU]

Sounds like some revisionist history there PaladinFan, because in the late 90's/early 2000's Jacksonville State was quite interested in SoCon membership but was rebuffed, by some measure, due to academic scrutiny by several of the schools still in the league. Was it enough of a voting bloc to keep them out ? That's why they moved to the OVC from the Southland, because they couldn't get into the SoCon. Now, clearly fans don't make these decisions but in that same time span many of the Furman fans were very vocal about not adding Jacksonville State. Georgia Southern and Chattanooga had always strongly supported their addition, but that maintaining that public/private balance was more important to the league. You have to remember that at that time it was before the exodus of VMI and ETSU.

As for adding a new team in South Carolina, it would only make sense to add Coastal Carolina for the SoCon as it would further consolidate travel for a league that seems intent on keeping down costs for it's members.

Those ships have sailed for the SoCon, and the decisions influenced by Furman, The Citadel and others has absolutely shaped the conference to where it is today. Competitively, it isn't nearly as strong as it could have been.

Re: JSU that is the way I understand it. They wanted in the SoCon. as I said, in my opinion, it was a mistake not to invite.

[citdog]

Did you really trade Georgia Southern or App State for a similar institution in VMI? The answer is no.

THAT was the whole POINT schleprock.

[chattanoogamocs]

The simplified way to look at how the 3 members were selected is that ETSU made Chattanooga and Western happy...Mercer made the privates happy...and VMI made the Citadel happy...pretty much everyone got something they wanted. I think the reason why school like CCU didn't get any traction is because no one in the conference was really pushing for them like the three that were taken. I know Chattanooga was adamant about ETSU and I assume the Citadel was the same for bringing back VMI.

And, of course, this isn't a football only decision. Basketball wise, those three members improved, on average, the conference over ASU, GSU and Elon...of course Davidson leaving hurt, but most football schools always bitched that the only reason they were good in basketball is because there weren't paying for a football team, so some members were happy to see them head to the A-10.

[rokamortis]

That's not the question and my answer referred to the long term, not just the recent transgression. The question is their a reasonable substitute. and for the purposes of longevity, rivalries, etc the substitution was just fine. One might ask why not CCU, although I am not sure what CCU's interest would have been. In my opinion, I have no problem with another S. Carolina school especially one that isn't like the other members. I personally would have loved CCU, but, they ask me and as I said not sure what the interest would have been.

Outside of CCU, I can't think of a college of size, that would have said yes or would have been ask. AS I said, JSU at this point wouldn't accept nor would they have been offered because of their hinted at move up.

I wasn't even addressing Coastal. Just that it appeared that the SoCon did not have a 1-1 swap. You could say ETSU for App State was a similar swap and Mercer for Elon was a similar swap but I don't think anyone would say VMI for Georgia Southern was similar in any fashion. It had many benefits certainly, but university profile isn't one of them.

As far as other schools that could have been considered - Kennesaw State is adding football. It is a public Georgia school with a large enrollment. Since the SoCon has already demonstrated they didn't mind start-ups then KSU would have been the logical choice to replace Georgia Southern with a similar institution.

[walliver]

...of course Davidson leaving hurt, but most football schools always bitched that the only reason they were good in basketball is because there weren't paying for a football team, so some members were happy to see them head to the A-10.

That logic doesn't seem to apply to UNC-G's basketball program, however.

[rokamortis]

THAT was the whole POINT schleprock.

xlolx I know, I get it

[walliver]

I wasn't even addressing Coastal. Just that it appeared that the SoCon did not have a 1-1 swap. You could say ETSU for App State was a similar swap and Mercer for Elon was a similar swap but I don't think anyone would say VMI for Georgia Southern was similar in any fashion. It had many benefits certainly, but university profile isn't one of them.

As far as other schools that could have been considered - Kennesaw State is adding football. It is a public Georgia school with a large enrollment. Since the SoCon has already demonstrated they didn't mind start-ups then KSU would have been the logical choice to replace Georgia Southern with a similar institution.

My concern with Kennesaw State, a school that was on the SoCon's radar 10 years ago or so, is that their football team, will have a strong incentive to follow Georgia State to FBS. Mercer, on the other hand, probably has few FBS dreams and likely will stay in the SoCon for a long time

I think the main thing to consider is that only one NEW school was added, Mercer. VMI originally wanted to take its football team ONLY out of the SoCon and keep other sports in the league, a la Davidson. This move was strongly opposed by ETSU in particular, and VMI never made a formal request and left the conference. When ETSU dropped football a few years later, they requested to stay in the conference, but received no mercy due to their stance on VMI. I suspect both both schools regretted their decisions and are happy to return home.

[kdinva]

I don't think anyone would say VMI for Georgia Southern was similar in any fashion. It had many benefits certainly, but university profile isn't one of them.
.

whose university profile? xcoffeex

[kdinva]

VMI originally wanted to take its football team ONLY out of the SoCon and keep other sports in the league, a la Davidson. This move was strongly opposed by ETSU in particular, and VMI never made a formal request and left the conference. When ETSU dropped football a few years later, they requested to stay in the conference, but received no mercy due to their stance on VMI. I suspect both both schools regretted their decisions and are happy to return home.

that's an understatement!!

The VMI Supe in 2000, we were glad when he retired..........and a lot of us feel the same about the current Supe.......he will not let Sparky have the $$ resources to recruit out further, and insists on a certain %% of Virginia kids for football (even though he has no control how the alumni give their dollars for scholarships). I heard 3rd hand VMI has only about 56 scholly equivalents to work with, even though the Keydet Club ledger says otherwise.....

[rokamortis]

My concern with Kennesaw State, a school that was on the SoCon's radar 10 years ago or so, is that their football team, will have a strong incentive to follow Georgia State to FBS. Mercer, on the other hand, probably has few FBS dreams and likely will stay in the SoCon for a long time

I think the main thing to consider is that only one NEW school was added, Mercer. VMI originally wanted to take its football team ONLY out of the SoCon and keep other sports in the league, a la Davidson. This move was strongly opposed by ETSU in particular, and VMI never made a formal request and left the conference. When ETSU dropped football a few years later, they requested to stay in the conference, but received no mercy due to their stance on VMI. I suspect both both schools regretted their decisions and are happy to return home.

Doesn't appear that there are many more spots available or financial incentives for conferences to add more teams. If they do start adding I'm not sure that KSU is going to be tops on that list. Plus most of the FBS conferences in the region already have an Atlanta rep, not sure they would want 2.

[chattanoogamocs]

That logic doesn't seem to apply to UNC-G's basketball program, however.

Honest truth...UNCG really doesn't have much of a say because they don't really have any other legitimate options...they have no bargaining position and a weak athletics department (when it comes to promoting itself or growing it's brand)

[rokamortis]

whose university profile? xcoffeex

Good point. I meant similar university profile. I think VMI's profile is something that the SoCon wanted.

[chattanoogamocs]

My concern with Kennesaw State, a school that was on the SoCon's radar 10 years ago or so, is that their football team, will have a strong incentive to follow Georgia State to FBS. Mercer, on the other hand, probably has few FBS dreams and likely will stay in the SoCon for a long time

I think the main thing to consider is that only one NEW school was added, Mercer. VMI originally wanted to take its football team ONLY out of the SoCon and keep other sports in the league, a la Davidson. This move was strongly opposed by ETSU in particular, and VMI never made a formal request and left the conference. When ETSU dropped football a few years later, they requested to stay in the conference, but received no mercy due to their stance on VMI. I suspect both both schools regretted their decisions and are happy to return home.

I had a conversation with Danny Morrison at the 2005 SoCon basketball tournament and he had already spent quite a bit of time North of Atlanta talking to KSU. He was definitely going to push hard for them to join...then he left that summer for TCU.

I think KSU could have gotten in, but there was a real (legitimate) fear that they would follow GaSt and move up almost immediately, whether that was real or not...it scared the conference members from ever seriously considering them. If KSU would have made a commitment that they were not interested in moving to FBS in the foreseeable future, I think they might made it in.

Of course, in a way, Mercer did the same thing...they always had the idea of moving to scholarship, but they weren't planning on doing it after year one...but with the chance to move to the SoCon, they jumped at the chance.

[chattanoogamocs]

Good point. I meant similar university profile. I think VMI's profile is something that the SoCon wanted.

Honestly, whether their program is at the top or the bottom, the best fit for VMI is the SoCon. I might be in the minority of Chattanooga fans, but I like that they are back. This is their home, they were one of the oldest members when they left...and technically still have the longest tenure now that they are back.

[PaladinFan]

I had a conversation with Danny Morrison at the 2005 SoCon basketball tournament and he had already spent quite a bit of time North of Atlanta talking to KSU. He was definitely going to push hard for them to join...then he left that summer for TCU.

I think KSU could have gotten in, but there was a real (legitimate) fear that they would follow GaSt and move up almost immediately, whether that was real or not...it scared the conference members from ever seriously considering them. If KSU would have made a commitment that they were not interested in moving to FBS in the foreseeable future, I think they might made it in.

Of course, in a way, Mercer did the same thing...they always had the idea of moving to scholarship, but they weren't planning on doing it after year one...but with the chance to move to the SoCon, they jumped at the chance.

This is just my guess, but I imagine Mercer would be still in the PFL or maybe Big South if Georgia Southern had not left.

[chattanoogamocs]

This is just my guess, but I imagine Mercer would be still in the PFL or maybe Big South if Georgia Southern had not left.

I completely agree. Mercer fans can chime in, but what I heard through the conference grapevine (even before they became a candidate for membership) was they were going to hold to the PFL for about 3-5 seasons and build up their name and record before trying to make a jump somewhere.

Of course, when they hired Lamb, you knew at some point scholarship ball was in their future. A coach of that experience isn't going to want to coach what is, in essence, DIII football.

[AshevilleApp2]

Honest truth...UNCG really doesn't have much of a say because they don't really have any other legitimate options...they have no bargaining position and a weak athletics department (when it comes to promoting itself or growing it's brand)

Should have stayed D-III or D-II and concentrated on Soccer. They excelled there.

[ElCid]

Forum regular, ElCid, on another board let me know this earlier today.

19739

The exact quote was:

"The SoCon is our house, run by The Citadel and Furman, and don't forget that. "

So, my question for the class is: Is that true? In all seriousness. Is there a team or teams that "runs" the conference? Forgive my ignorance. I haven't been around long.


Wrong elcid Poindexter.

It's a common alias.

I expected more out of a Mercer grad than to just assume it was me without knowing.

[BearDownMU]

You guys all look alike to me.

[Ghost]

The simplified way to look at how the 3 members were selected is that ETSU made Chattanooga and Western happy...Mercer made the privates happy...and VMI made the Citadel happy...pretty much everyone got something they wanted. I think the reason why school like CCU didn't get any traction is because no one in the conference was really pushing for them like the three that were taken. I know Chattanooga was adamant about ETSU and I assume the Citadel was the same for bringing back VMI.

And, of course, this isn't a football only decision. Basketball wise, those three members improved, on average, the conference over ASU, GSU and Elon...of course Davidson leaving hurt, but most football schools always bitched that the only reason they were good in basketball is because there weren't paying for a football team, so some members were happy to see them head to the A-10.

This is the best way to describe the recent replacements and the mindset behind the specific schools added. I agree 100% with this.

[Ghost]

My concern with Kennesaw State, a school that was on the SoCon's radar 10 years ago or so, is that their football team, will have a strong incentive to follow Georgia State to FBS. Mercer, on the other hand, probably has few FBS dreams and likely will stay in the SoCon for a long time

KSU is growing at an astronomical rate. they sit currently at 3rd(behind UGA and Georgia state) in enrollment numbers for the state of GA. They will push 40,000 in 5 years IMO. I think adding KSU as a replacement wouldn't have appeased the Private schools as their academic standards are not anywhere near what Mercer brought to the table. Along with the fear that they could be on the fast track to FBS a la GSU they didnt make much sense for the SoCon. I also have heard that they really didn't want to push their other sports into a better conference before they were ready. the Big South is a great fit for them right now and eventually I think they move all sports over there until they are ready to go bigger.

[Ghost]

I completely agree. Mercer fans can chime in, but what I heard through the conference grapevine (even before they became a candidate for membership) was they were going to hold to the PFL for about 3-5 seasons and build up their name and record before trying to make a jump somewhere.

Of course, when they hired Lamb, you knew at some point scholarship ball was in their future. A coach of that experience isn't going to want to coach what is, in essence, DIII football.
I would agree that Mercer would have eventually joined the Big South. Along with KSU. HAD mercer joined the BSC in all sports KSU would have had to make the jump as well with all sports to even out the scheduling.

[Ghost]

Wrong elcid Poindexter.

It's a common alias.

I expected more out of a Mercer grad than to just assume it was me without knowing.

I'm sure if you are in WR that BDMU would gladly make it up to you Homecoming weekend at his Tailgate AMIRITE?xdrunkyx

[ElCid]

I'm sure if you are in WR that BDMU would gladly make it up to you Homecoming weekend at his Tailgate AMIRITE?xdrunkyx

xsmiley_wix

[rokamortis]

How did the admins of the recently departed SoCon schools get along with the other schools and conference office?

[OL FU]

I wasn't even addressing Coastal. Just that it appeared that the SoCon did not have a 1-1 swap. You could say ETSU for App State was a similar swap and Mercer for Elon was a similar swap but I don't think anyone would say VMI for Georgia Southern was similar in any fashion. It had many benefits certainly, but university profile isn't one of them.

As far as other schools that could have been considered - Kennesaw State is adding football. It is a public Georgia school with a large enrollment. Since the SoCon has already demonstrated they didn't mind start-ups then KSU would have been the logical choice to replace Georgia Southern with a similar institution.

I was addressing CCU. Always thought we should give the invite. My guess is that it is too late now.

[fc97]

How did the admins of the recently departed SoCon schools get along with the other schools and conference office?

thats a good question ant a lot of rumor. from what i gather, things had been in lots of turmoil since the elon addition. elon was the only recent addition that didn't have a unanimous vote. and with that came some friction between administrators. i know that there was a good deal of bickering for a few years with the suggestions that the socon had for replacements since inviting samford all the way until last year.

elon never really fit well. the fans you hear on the net did, but the school itself didn't. the direction elon wanted the conference to go in was not where the conference administrators wanted to go. elon and the caa was not well published with the conference hq and so elon and the conference office really burned their bridge. overall though, elon had good relationships with davidson and furman in the end but i am not sure about the others.

app overall left on good terms. but i hear that gsu did not. their ad went public with too much dirty laundry from the socon and i hear the main office was not happy about it.

davidson left on ok terms. they were up front about things, charleston was not.

you have a mixed bag of what went on. elon, gsu and charleston left on bad terms. davidson left on neutral terms. app left on good terms.

[wcucat15]

you are 100% correct.

[BullDog85]

I think APRs play a big role in who the SoCon lets in and doesn't.
Also keep this rule in mind: Beginning with 2012-13 championships, teams must earn a minimum 900 four-year APR or a 930 average over the most recent two years to be eligible to participate. For 2014-15 championships, teams must earn a 930 four-year average APR or a 940 average over the most recent two years to participate in championships. In 2015-16 and beyond, teams must earn a four-year APR of 930 to compete in championships.

Academic Progress Rate
Big South Conference


Sport School State Academic Year Multi-Year. Rate
Football Charleston Southern University SC 2012 - 2013 922
Football Coastal Carolina University SC 2012 - 2013 948
Football Gardner-Webb University NC 2012 - 2013 925
Football Liberty University VA 2012 - 2013 944
Football Monmouth University NJ 2012 - 2013 960
Football Presbyterian College SC 2012 - 2013 938

Southern Conference 2013
Football Furman University SC 2012 - 2013 968
Football Samford University AL 2012 - 2013 977
Football The Citadel SC 2012 - 2013 968
Football University of Tennessee at Chattanooga TN 2012 - 2013 963
Football Virginia Military Institute VA 2012 - 2013 935
Football Western Carolina University NC 2012 - 2013 954
Football Wofford College SC 2012 - 2013 985


Sport School State Academic Year Multi-Year Rate Penalties Postseason
Football Jacksonville State University AL 2004 - 2005 849 Immediate Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 6.3

Football Jacksonville State University AL 2005 - 2006 857 Immediate Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 2.32
Historical Penalty - Public Notice = Yes

Football Jacksonville State University AL 2006 - 2007 883 Historical Penalty - Public Notice = Yes
Historical Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 1.57

Football Jacksonville State University AL 2007 - 2008 882 Historical Penalty - Public Notice = Yes
Historical Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 0.18
Historical Penalty - Practice Reduction = Yes
Historical Penalty - Championship Ban = Yes

Football Jacksonville State University AL 2008 - 2009 909 Immediate Penalty - Scholarship Reduction = 0.36

Football Jacksonville State University AL 2009 - 2010 925
Football Jacksonville State University AL 2010 - 2011 915
Football Jacksonville State University AL 2011 - 2012 940
Football Jacksonville State University AL 2012 - 2013 931

[BearDownMU]

I'm sure if you are in WR that BDMU would gladly make it up to you Homecoming weekend at his Tailgate AMIRITE?xdrunkyx

The enemy, errrr, I mean, our Guests are always welcome at my tailgate! ;)

[wcucat15]

The simplified way to look at how the 3 members were selected is that ETSU made Chattanooga and Western happy...Mercer made the privates happy...and VMI made the Citadel happy...pretty much everyone got something they wanted. I think the reason why school like CCU didn't get any traction is because no one in the conference was really pushing for them like the three that were taken. I know Chattanooga was adamant about ETSU and I assume the Citadel was the same for bringing back VMI.

And, of course, this isn't a football only decision. Basketball wise, those three members improved, on average, the conference over ASU, GSU and Elon...of course Davidson leaving hurt, but most football schools always bitched that the only reason they were good in basketball is because there weren't paying for a football team, so some members were happy to see them head to the A-10.

you are 100% correct

[rokamortis]

I think APRs play a big role in who the SoCon lets in and doesn't.

If so your evidence doesn't back it up. VMI is the lowest of those in the SoCon you listed and the other 2 new football teams have no APR.

[jmrepak]

That's not the question and my answer referred to the long term, not just the recent transgression. The question is their a reasonable substitute. and for the purposes of longevity, rivalries, etc the substitution was just fine. One might ask why not CCU, although I am not sure what CCU's interest would have been. In my opinion, I have no problem with another S. Carolina school especially one that isn't like the other members. I personally would have loved CCU, but, they ask me and as I said not sure what the interest would have been.

Outside of CCU, I can't think of a college of size, that would have said yes or would have been ask. AS I said, JSU at this point wouldn't accept nor would they have been offered because of their hinted at move up.

Coastal actually would have had interest a year or two ago. At that point, the Board gave the President authorization to do what was necessary to seek out a new conference for us to call home as our facilities and performance was outpacing the rest of the conference. The lack of a good Big South reputation was not helping Coastal's reputation. That falls in line with the President's, as well as my own, belief that the University must have a solid academic foundation and great facilities, and then lean on athletics to help spread the word and generate/maintain alumni and community interest.

That being said, for football, the Big South has seen improvement in the last two years in defeating OOC opponents. This has pushed off the desire to move conferences in my opinion. However, Coastal also has very strong and often nationally ranked soccer, golf and baseball programs. We also have a decent tennis and track team. I think basketball is good for our conference, but could be better overall as well as volleyball. My point in listing those is that I would still like us to seek out a better overall mid-major conference that has a larger institutions and more representative facilities. Personally, I'm a fan of the A-10 with CAA football, but they have a very strong Northeastern focus so it wouldn't work for us and they wouldn't have any interest. We also don't have a large media market or alumni base (yet) to give other mid-majors a reason to give us a look. The short version of it is that unless the SoCon comes calling with a good reason for us to leave I see us in the Big South for the foreseeable future.

[citdog]

Coastal actually would have had interest a year or two ago. At that point, the Board gave the President authorization to do what was necessary to seek out a new conference for us to call home as our facilities and performance was outpacing the rest of the conference. The lack of a good Big South reputation was not helping Coastal's reputation. That falls in line with the President's, as well as my own, belief that the University must have a solid academic foundation and great facilities, and then lean on athletics to help spread the word and generate/maintain alumni and community interest.

That being said, for football, the Big South has seen improvement in the last two years in defeating OOC opponents. This has pushed off the desire to move conferences in my opinion. However, Coastal also has very strong and often nationally ranked soccer, golf and baseball programs. We also have a decent tennis and track team. I think basketball is good for our conference, but could be better overall as well as volleyball. My point in listing those is that I would still like us to seek out a better overall mid-major conference that has a larger institutions and more representative facilities. Personally, I'm a fan of the A-10 with CAA football, but they have a very strong Northeastern focus so it wouldn't work for us and they wouldn't have any interest. We also don't have a large media market or alumni base (yet) to give other mid-majors a reason to give us a look. The short version of it is that unless the SoCon comes calling with a good reason for us to leave I see us in the Big South for the foreseeable future.

The only people responsible for usc-coastal not being in the Southern Conference is usc-coastal. The things they allowed their coaching staff to tell recruits under the former coach is the reason.

[jmrepak]

The only people responsible for usc-coastal not being in the Southern Conference is usc-coastal. The things they allowed their coaching staff to tell recruits under the former coach is the reason.
That coach has been gone for 2 and a half years, and the president that recruited that coach and gave him his crazy contract that the current administration had to deal with has been gone for 7 years. That's crazy talk. I just don't think Furman or Citadel wanted to or were capable of competing with Coastal in recruiting or performance.

By the way. It's not usc-coastal, and hasn't been for more than 20 years. It's Coastal Carolina! You should know that after we beat your beloved puppy dogs.

[citdog]

That coach has been gone for 2 and a half years, and the president that recruited that coach and gave him his crazy contract that the current administration had to deal with has been gone for 7 years. That's crazy talk. I just don't think Furman or Citadel wanted to or were capable of competing with Coastal in recruiting or performance.

By the way. It's not usc-coastal, and hasn't been for more than 20 years. It's Coastal Carolina! You should know that after we beat your beloved puppy dogs.

By your comments about the passage of time I can only assume that you are one of the many members of the yankee persuasion that infest usc-coastal and several other colleges in the Palmetto State. 2 years you say? In South Carolina 200 years ago was yesterday! As far as competing with usc-coastal that never entered into the discussion. As was stated above about the passage of time it will take many more decades of improvement at usc-coastal for the stigma of being a diploma mill to be gone. You have come far in a short time in a great number of ways but not far enough to be Confederated with the other members of the Southern Conference in South Carolina.

[OL FU]

That coach has been gone for 2 and a half years, and the president that recruited that coach and gave him his crazy contract that the current administration had to deal with has been gone for 7 years. That's crazy talk. I just don't think Furman or Citadel wanted to or were capable of competing with Coastal in recruiting or performance.

By the way. It's not usc-coastal, and hasn't been for more than 20 years. It's Coastal Carolina! You should know that after we beat your beloved puppy dogs.

The impression I have is that The Socon won't come calling anyway, but like I said I wish we would or would have years ago.

[jmrepak]

First off, you couldn't be more wrong. I was born and raised in the Palmetto State. Born in Charleston at Roper in fact, and my ancestors on one side can be traced in South Carolina all the way back to the 1800's while the other side of my family has been in Charleston since my Grandfather's 27 year Naval career located him there back in the early 1980's. 2 years of time is relevant in this case due to the fact that it happened at the time of the SoCon's need to add membership. As far as saying it was a diploma mill you have no ground to stand on when looking at history. In fact, prior to 2002 Coastal Carolina had less than 5,000 students enrolled, and we've had many successful alumni in the recent and distant history that I've had the pleasure of meeting, but they are considered USC alumni due to the period in which they graduated.

Finally, why is Coastal Carolina so hard to say/type? A true South Carolinian would appreciate that fact more than anyone. A college oppressed and abused chose independence for survival and seceded from the safe haven of a parent institution with larger influence and budget to seek out success through independence. Coastal Carolina University!

[citdog]

You mention the grandfather. He was a yankee so YOU are a yankee. Growing up in Charleston you should understand that. As far as usc-coastal is concerned I said that you have made great strides in a short period of time. Perhaps when another opening in the SoCon is avaliable they should take a second look at you.

[Sader87]

Talking about who "runs the Southern Conference in 2014" is akin to asking who was running the Confederate States of America in March 1865 xsmiley_wix

Yeah...I went there.

[citdog]

Talking about who "runs the Southern Conference in 2014" is akin to asking who was running the Confederate States of America in March 1865 xsmiley_wix

Yeah...I went there.

You mean when less than 40,000 shoeless, wearing rags, hungry, and HEROIC Confederate Soldiers STILL made your 150,000 cower in holes and avoid fighting them out in the open like men do? THAT March of 1865?

[jmrepak]

You mention the grandfather. He was a yankee so YOU are a yankee. Growing up in Charleston you should understand that. As far as usc-coastal is concerned I said that you have made great strides in a short period of time. Perhaps when another opening in the SoCon is avaliable they should take a second look at you.
You say I'm a yank yet I've chosen to return to the homestead of SC after spending all but 9 months of my life in the South and you're 3000 miles away? Right...

[citdog]

You say I'm a yank yet I've chosen to return to the homestead of SC after spending all but 9 months of my life in the South and you're 3000 miles away? Right...

It's the BLOOD Sir........NOT the location of said blood!

[jmrepak]

It's the BLOOD Sir........NOT the location of said blood!

Suuurrreeeee. Whatever you say.

[Sader87]

You mean when less than 40,000 shoeless, wearing rags, hungry, and HEROIC Confederate Soldiers STILL made your 150,000 cower in holes and avoid fighting them out in the open like men do? THAT March of 1865?

Pretty much.....the Southern Conference of 2014 is but a shadow of its once glorious self.....much like the South after the War of Northern Aggression. xrotatehx

[jmrepak]

Pretty much.....the Southern Conference of 2014 is but a shadow of its once glorious self.....much like the South after the War of Northern Aggression. xrotatehx
Look here yank, don't get between two southerners in an argument (even if you are correct about the SoCon). The South shall rise again. Albeit economically in the wake of the failing midwest, but rising none the less.

[citdog]

Look here yank, don't get between two southerners in an argument (even if you are correct about the SoCon). The South shall rise again. Albeit economically in the wake of the failing midwest, but rising none the less.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l4_m1ef-640/Ta4qvvsAEzI/AAAAAAAAEqA/HbYWu7ZtxZ8/s320/New+Picture+%25285%2529.bmp


MY MAN!!!!!

[OL FU]

Well if it is the blood, I must be Scottish. because generally after 5PM, well...............................xdrunkyx my name is Johnny Walker black or blue:)

[PaladinFan]

Pretty much.....the Southern Conference of 2014 is but a shadow of its once glorious self.....much like the South after the War of Northern Aggression. xrotatehx

I will not stand for football critiques from a Yankee. Massachusetts' flagship state university draws 15k a game. There are high school games bigger than that down here.

[OL FU]

Pretty much.....the Southern Conference of 2014 is but a shadow of its once glorious self.....much like the South after the War of Northern Aggression. xrotatehx

HOLY SH....(I mean) CROSSxawesomex

[AshevilleApp2]

You mention the grandfather. He was a yankee so YOU are a yankee. Growing up in Charleston you should understand that. As far as usc-coastal is concerned I said that you have made great strides in a short period of time. Perhaps when another opening in the SoCon is avaliable they should take a second look at you.

I thought that was traced through the mother. xconfusedx

[citdog]

I thought that was traced through the mother. xconfusedx

You are thinking of the Hebrews.