The Socon is wide open this year

[Reign of Terrier]

Was I the only one who was brutally unimpressed with everyone's performance this week?

Furman's offense is weak, spin it as much as you'd like, and to be honest their defense was not nearly the ~elite~ unit fans on here claim them to be. They'll definitely win some games and their schedule is probably best in the Socon, but I'm really unimpressed.

Chattanooga managed to play probably the worst offensive game the Socon has seen in years, perhaps decades against an FCS opponent.

VMI got destroyed by a so-so at best FBS team

Mercer is better than I thought but at the same time not very impressive. Furman did all they could to try to lose tonight.

All the while, we haven't seen a game for a good gauge of Wofford, Samford, or the Citadel.

And Western Carolina has impressed as well.

It's going to be a fun year, but it's also going to be a year where we can't predict anything with any decent accuracy until probably the last week of the year.

[centennial]

I feel like SoCon has fallen to the level of OVC and Big South. Hate to say it but GoSu and ASU leaving is going to hurt with at larges..

[Smitty]

I think it will balance out, but it may take a year or so before everything comes together.

[ElCid]

Wofford is still unknown, Furman is down, The Citadel is up, Samford is down, Western is up, Chatty is Chatty, Mercer is definitely rising, VMI just "is". ETSU will be. I am not too concerned. It will be a fun year.

[PaladinFan]

Was I the only one who was brutally unimpressed with everyone's performance this week?

Furman's offense is weak, spin it as much as you'd like, and to be honest their defense was not nearly the ~elite~ unit fans on here claim them to be. They'll definitely win some games and their schedule is probably best in the Socon, but I'm really unimpressed.

Chattanooga managed to play probably the worst offensive game the Socon has seen in years, perhaps decades against an FCS opponent.

VMI got destroyed by a so-so at best FBS team

Mercer is better than I thought but at the same time not very impressive. Furman did all they could to try to lose tonight.

All the while, we haven't seen a game for a good gauge of Wofford, Samford, or the Citadel.

And Western Carolina has impressed as well.

It's going to be a fun year, but it's also going to be a year where we can't predict anything with any decent accuracy until probably the last week of the year.

Still early to make too many predictions. Remember, Furman looked awful last year through half the season, and pretty much ran roughshod through the conference in the second half. Anything can happen.

I'm still bullish on Furman's defense. Mercer's got a quirky offense and some good athletes. Many of our fans expected them to put up a couple of touchdowns (I predicted 35-17). I did not, however, expect our offense to have to grind like it did.

[Sly Fox]

I think that is the point, PaladinFan. The fact that Furman could run roughshod through the league and struggle against others was evidence of the overall decline of the SoCon.

[OL FU]

Anybody that didn't realize that losing GSU and ASU would knock the Socon down a notch or two isn't realistic. (Slyfox, ask most NDSU fans who gave them their best game in the playoffs last yearxnodx even though it wasn't that good of a game). The question is the long term and that is the big unknown. ASU and GSU won 9 NCs so going down some is a given. But the Socon did what it needed to do. It added teams that will more than likely enjoy the SoCon for a long time.

We are now a conference made up mostly (not totally) of small private or private like schools. All you have to do is look at the list of national championship winners to know that makes the conference a little less likely to haul in a bunch of NCs.

As to the level of the Big Sky and OVC, I would say they top of those conferences has gotten better as much as I would say the SoCon has slid.

- - - Updated - - -


I think that is the point, PaladinFan. The fact that Furman could run roughshod through the league and struggle against others was evidence of the overall decline of the SoCon.

We didn't exactly run roughshod over the rest of the conference and the struggles against others was in the early sucky part of the year.

[kdinva]

Against BGSU (the defending MAC champs), VMI's punt team allowed two scores, lost a fumble inside it's own 25, missed a 23 yd FG, and were millimeters twice of converting a 4th and goal in 2nd half (both were passes well defended by BG). VMI ran 90 plays, gained 420 yards, but only 7 points to show for that. Could have easily been a final score of 35-21 or thereabouts.......but that's history now...

[PaladinFan]

I think that is the point, PaladinFan. The fact that Furman could run roughshod through the league and struggle against others was evidence of the overall decline of the SoCon.

Sure. I don't think anyone would argue that the SoCon is not in a transition period. Even last year with App State and GSU, those teams were shadows of their former glory.

The SoCon is in an interesting spot. There is a lot more competition for players and talent than there was 10 or 15 years ago (there are 9 DI programs in South Carolina alone). The conference will have to figure out how to handle this period of change.

[LarryBoy]

At the moment, there aren't any SoCon teams that I'd consider playoff favorites. But few playoff games are won in Week 2.

At this point, Dillon Woodruff has played 7 quarters* of collegiate football. That number should be substantially higher by season's end, and I imagine you'll see some improvement. I hope the same goes for our O-Line...

*Without a broken shoulder

[paward]

Let's not hit the panic button too quick. Still a lot of football to play. I still say the Mocs will be there in the end. My problem is I wonder do they fell the same.

[PaladinFan]

At the moment, there aren't any SoCon teams that I'd consider playoff favorites. But few playoff games are won in Week 2.

At this point, Dillon Woodruff has played 7 quarters* of collegiate football. That number should be substantially higher by season's end, and I imagine you'll see some improvement. I hope the same goes for our O-Line...

*Without a broken shoulder

Hoping to see some adjustments on offense. I honestly cannot tell if we are running a simplified playbook because we are expected to win and have a freshman QB, or that just is our offense. I hope it is the former.

Hopefully we start seeing some improvement on offense against PC. Schedule is going to take it up a notch after next week.

[youwouldno]

The SoCon is awful this year, truly horrific. But I think it will turn back up somewhat in the next few years - not to previous heights, but as a respectable, mid-level FCS conference.

So far as Furman, I think fans had legitimate reasons for optimism, based on a fairly long stretch of success in the 2nd half of last year and a lot of returning players on defense. The fact the team has looked so bad is confusing for sure, but it wasn't pure homerism to talk them up.

[Reign of Terrier]

I don't think the Socon is necessarily terrible, though it's definitely down.

I think there's a difference between the OVC and Big South. The Socon is more like the former than the latter.

All we need is one or two teams to perform consistently and win 9+ games. Without GSU and App State in the conference, as well as Wofford last year under-performing last year, the one thing the Socon misses is historical consistency. We don't have one team, at least right now, that every team in the conference circles on the calender out of historical precedence. Maybe we have one or two out of recent respect, but there's not one team that's played a consistent OOC slate with great success in the playoffs or otherwise, other than maybe Wofford.

And I'm not trying to sandbag Furman's accomplishments last year, it's just that that was their first playoff appearance in like, what, 5+ years?

So, if Furman and Wofford make the playoffs this year, we'll be in better shape as a conference at least in terms of an established product nationally. Will we be as good as GSU/App? probably not. But we'll still be a conference you have to respect

[longtimemocfan]

And as bad as the offense was we still could've won in regulation...punt return for touchdown was called back by penalty near the end of regulation.

[CID1990]

And as bad as the offense was we still could've won in regulation...punt return for touchdown was called back by penalty near the end of regulation.

IF

if the queen had a pair shed be king

[Wallace]

Appy and GSU are gone so Furman, Wofford, Cit, Chatty need to step up. That should be expected along with the rest pulling weight.

[longtimemocfan]

IF

if the queen had a pair shed be king

No if about it. No way this game should've been as close as it was.

[walliver]

The SoCon is awful this year, truly horrific. But I think it will turn back up somewhat in the next few years - not to previous heights, but as a respectable, mid-level FCS conference.

So far as Furman, I think fans had legitimate reasons for optimism, based on a fairly long stretch of success in the 2nd half of last year and a lot of returning players on defense. The fact the team has looked so bad is confusing for sure, but it wasn't pure homerism to talk them up.

It's kind of early to write off the SoCon.
We've lost 3 games to the Big 5 and 3 to the G5. We've lost 2 games to highly ranked FCS teams. The six returning teams have no bad losses.
On the other hand, the Returning Six have no statement wins. Unfortunately, due to relatively weak scheduling by most schools, there are not a lot of opportunities for big OOC wins. FU has opportunities against South Carolina and CCU, UTC has UT, and WCU has Alabama.
The true test of the conference will come in late November and December, and I think we will do well.

[PaladinFan]

It's kind of early to write off the SoCon.
We've lost 3 games to the Big 5 and 3 to the G5. We've lost 2 games to highly ranked FCS teams. The six returning teams have no bad losses.
On the other hand, the Returning Six have no statement wins. Unfortunately, due to relatively weak scheduling by most schools, there are not a lot of opportunities for big OOC wins. FU has opportunities against South Carolina and CCU, UTC has UT, and WCU has Alabama.
The true test of the conference will come in late November and December, and I think we will do well.

I think I calculated that Furman would have cracks at potentially six ranked opponents this year.

No one thought that the SoCon today would be like it was a year ago. Some good programs left, there are more football programs competing for talent than there was a few years ago. Things change.

I still enjoy watching Furman play football. That's really why I show up anyway. Don't much care what everyone else in other conferences are doing.

[Jiggs]

Samford is down
Still to early to tell. Even with last night's 52-0 whipping of Stillman. We might find out a little more when VMI comes to town, but I'm not confident that we will know much then.

[Reign of Terrier]

Beating up inferior competition doesn't mean much.

Wofford hung 82 on a team a couple years ago, we won the socon but we our offense was noticeably down that year

[citdog]

Still to early to tell. Even with last night's 52-0 whipping of Stillman. We might find out a little more when VMI comes to town, but I'm not confident that we will know much then.

If you think VMI is going to lay down for you you'll have another thing coming. They'll fight until the final whistle. I wouldn't overlook them.

[Apphole]

If you think VMI is going to lay down for you you'll have another thing coming. They'll fight until the final whistle. I wouldn't overlook them.

http://www.postandcourier.com/storyimage/CP/20111029/PC20/310299938/AR/0/AR-310299938.jpg&maxw=640&q=100

[citdog]

http://www.postandcourier.com/storyimage/CP/20111029/PC20/310299938/AR/0/AR-310299938.jpg&maxw=640&q=100

What happened the last time VMI played appy as a SoCon team again? What happened the last two times The Citadel met appy? I forget.......

[catamount man]

Nov 9, 2002. App defeated VMI 54-13.

[CID1990]

What happened the last time VMI played appy as a SoCon team again? What happened the last two times The Citadel met appy? I forget.......

i cant figure out why he's still here when the land of milk and honey (sun blet bbs) awaits him with thighs spread wide open

[kdinva]

Nov 9, 2002. App defeated VMI 54-13.

and why that is significant in the discussion of this thread?

OK: 1994; VMI 26, then #3 App. St 23.......

[catamount man]

and why that is significant in the discussion of this thread?

OK: 1994; VMI 26, then #3 App. St 23.......

Refer you to Citdog's question to the App poster a few spots above my answer. If it'd been a snake, it would've bit ya.xrolleyesx

[SCPALADIN]

Refer you to Citdog's question to the App poster a few spots above my answer. If it'd been a snake, it would've bit ya.xrolleyesx

Who the hell is Appy? Never heard of 'em.

[Apphole]

I'm here to support my Eagles. And I wanted to add a visual aid to citdog's post about VMI.

[SU DOG]

If you think VMI is going to lay down for you you'll have another thing coming. They'll fight until the final whistle. I wouldn't overlook them.

Absolutely agree. I have seen(streaming) two of their games, and they do have some good players. Their starting QB is VERY good, and their line is huge. I don't think any of us believe VMI will lay down, but it still may be hard to analyze our team after only one FCS game.

For us, one thing I can promise, however, is that our QB, Michael Eubank is a good one. Louisville xfer Robert Clark has terrific speed, and I see him taking a few returns to the house this year.

[crossfire07]

Who the hell is Appy? Never heard of 'em.


New school making the move up from NAIA?

[ElCid]

Yup. Especially after watching some horrible performances today.

[CID1990]

Jeez it looks like Furple and Whifford arent worth a crap

thats especially funny given that the majority of the scribbling so far has been from those two

[kperk014]

I feel like SoCon has fallen to the level of OVC and Big South. Hate to say it but GoSu and ASU leaving is going to hurt with at larges..

That's why they need the University of North Alabama.

[Reign of Terrier]

Yeah, I'm not going to talk up Wofford. Tonight was kind of rough. With that said, we kind of ran into the same problems for Wofford/Furman. Namely Wofford's pass defense is suspect and Furman's offense sucks.

[BullDog85]

Vermin has defense, but losing Hannon means they have no offense. The backup Woodruff is just not there yet, which is good for the rest of the league. I think they are toast for the season. The Rat Dogs won by basically capitalizing on North Greenville mistakes...mainly turnovers. Two of their TDs were the result of short field advantage from INTs. Rat Dog secondary had a real bad night...370 yards in the air.

[CID1990]

god can we please get through all this preseason detritus and start playing a socon schedule soon?

[Reign of Terrier]

god can we please get through all this preseason detritus and start playing a socon schedule soon?

yeah, wofford won't for another 3 weeks unfortunately

[BullDog85]

yeah, wofford won't for another 3 weeks unfortunately We are in the same boat.

[Big_Fan]

That's why they need the University of North Alabama.


If the SoCon got tUNA, they might...MIGHT, be able to lure JSU from the OVC. Maybe.

..discounting the hard feelings from their shunning JSU previously...and JSU's desire to move the the FBS...

Add tUNA and JSU to the SoCon and it is a good conference again, though most drives are as bad as the OVC. It wouldn't take the Lions long to be competitive at the FCS level; they and JSU would push one another to improve.

Of course, Sammy would be up in arms against it... as would the rest of the private schools. I doubt they would open their arms for tUNA, much less JSU.

The Big South and making the Carolina's your home away from home is probably tUNA's best bet...then hope that the OVC changes its mind. I know that JSU would love for tUNA to be in the OVC.

[kperk014]

If the SoCon got tUNA, they might...MIGHT, be able to lure JSU from the OVC. Maybe.

..discounting the hard feelings from their shunning JSU previously...and JSU's desire to move the the FBS...

Add tUNA and JSU to the SoCon and it is a good conference again, though most drives are as bad as the OVC. It wouldn't take the Lions long to be competitive at the FCS level; they and JSU would push one another to improve.

Of course, Sammy would be up in arms against it... as would the rest of the private schools. I doubt they would open their arms for tUNA, much less JSU.

The Big South and making the Carolina's your home away from home is probably tUNA's best bet...then hope that the OVC changes its mind. I know that JSU would love for tUNA to be in the OVC.

We have accepted that we will be made to pay our dues in another conference before the Holy OVC deems us worthy. xdrunkyx

[citdog]

That's why they need the University of North Alabama.

The Southern Conference needs something called north alabama? You're a FOOL bro. You should be kissing our ass to even be CONSIDERED for membership.

[citdog]

If the SoCon got tUNA, they might...MIGHT, be able to lure JSU from the OVC. Maybe.

..discounting the hard feelings from their shunning JSU previously...and JSU's desire to move the the FBS...

Add tUNA and JSU to the SoCon and it is a good conference again, though most drives are as bad as the OVC. It wouldn't take the Lions long to be competitive at the FCS level; they and JSU would push one another to improve.

Of course, Sammy would be up in arms against it... as would the rest of the private schools. I doubt they would open their arms for tUNA, much less JSU.

The Big South and making the Carolina's your home away from home is probably tUNA's best bet...then hope that the OVC changes its mind. I know that JSU would love for tUNA to be in the OVC.

We could have JSU if we wanted them. We don't. Never even HEARD of something called north alabama.

[OL FU]

Which way to the PFL. ughxbawlingx

[rokamortis]

Which way to the PFL. ughxbawlingx

You guys want VMI's spot in the Big South?

[OL FU]

You guys want VMI's spot in the Big South?

Looks like we may already have itxbawlingx

[catamount man]

WCU can score points, Furman does not give up a lot of points. Furman cannot run the ball, WCU cannot stop the run. Something has to give in two weeks. Should be a good game.

[dungeonjoe]

WCU can score points, Furman does not give up a lot of points. Furman cannot run the ball, WCU cannot stop the run. Something has to give in two weeks. Should be a good game. everybody is "giving" in the conference, somebody has to "get" something in order to win the crown.

[Reign of Terrier]

JSU wants to go FBS there's no way they change conferences before that

[OL FU]

JSU wants to go FBS there's no way they change conferences before that

I always thought it was a mistake that we didn't offer when they were interested. Of course now, even if they were interested, we shouldn't. Don't need someone joining with the plans to leave.

[kperk014]

We could have JSU if we wanted them. We don't. Never even HEARD of something called north alabama.

I see you are obviously retarded. My condolences to your mama.

[PaladinFan]

everybody is "giving" in the conference, somebody has to "get" something in order to win the crown.

I do not have any idea if Furman is any good. I think we have a good defense. Perhaps even a really good defense.

There are easier ways to go through a season than losing your starting QB and captain in the Week 1. Part of me wants to think that with a rebuilt OL and brand new QB that the team is still "figuring it out." I cannot accept that our team is this inept on offense. Something has to start clicking or it is going to be a really long season.

[Ghost]

I do not have any idea if Furman is any good. I think we have a good defense. Perhaps even a really good defense.

There are easier ways to go through a season than losing your starting QB and captain in the Week 1. Part of me wants to think that with a rebuilt OL and brand new QB that the team is still "figuring it out." I cannot accept that our team is this inept on offense. Something has to start clicking or it is going to be a really long season.
Defense is good. Offense is... Anemic to say the least. Much like my beloved Atlanta Braves, our pitchers can pitch a 1 run game and still lose the game. Furman can hold teams (minus Mercer) to less than 10 and not get the offensive production to win the game. (i.e presby). I think its going to be a toss up between Nooga and Samford. that game will be the one to watch. after those two i think its a toss up for the final socon standings.

[PaladinFan]

Defense is good. Offense is... Anemic to say the least. Much like my beloved Atlanta Braves, our pitchers can pitch a 1 run game and still lose the game. Furman can hold teams (minus Mercer) to less than 10 and not get the offensive production to win the game. (i.e presby). I think its going to be a toss up between Nooga and Samford. that game will be the one to watch. after those two i think its a toss up for the final socon standings.

My fear is that this may be a repeat of 2003. The 2003 Paladins surrendered only 14.1 ppg on defense.

Despite perhaps one of the best defenses in modern conference history, Furman went 6-5 and missed the playoffs. They lost to the Citadel (10-9), App State (13-10), GSU (29-24), and Wofford (7-6). The only team to beat Furman by double digits was Clemson.

I am already starting to see that disturbing trend again. In 2003, 10 total points was the difference in a 6-5 team and a 10-1 team. Defense cannot be expected to pitch a shutout every time out there.

[Ghost]

It wears on a defense when the offense doesn't back them up. are we doing pick em this week?

[Reign of Terrier]

It wears on a defense when the offense doesn't back them up. are we doing pick em this week?

That's actually exactly what happened to Wofford last year. Defensively, we played outstanding with the exception of the App State game, but offensively we couldn't bail ourselves out and the defense often wore out in the second half. I'm reminded of Chattanooga and Furman in particular as those were the games we lead slightly at halftime but we predictably lost.

[longtimemocfan]

It wears on a defense when the offense doesn't back them up. are we doing pick em this week?

For the most part that is true....you've heard the phrase in basketball of good defensive teams being able to turn opponents over....Same can apply In football. You can have a good defense, but if you don't have the ability to turn a opponent over a defense can work it's self out of effectiveness in the course of a game by getting fatigued.
Our defense almost won the JSU game by forcing some bad throws that resulted in pick 6's. Otherwise we lose big....Furman did a good job with turning the opposition over last year. Don't seem to be doing as good a job with that this year so far.

[chattanoogamocs]

That's actually exactly what happened to Wofford last year. Defensively, we played outstanding with the exception of the App State game, but offensively we couldn't bail ourselves out and the defense often wore out in the second half. I'm reminded of Chattanooga and Furman in particular as those were the games we lead slightly at halftime but we predictably lost.

Maybe I am misreading your post in some way, but last year Chattanooga led 17-3 at the half (final score 20-10). Wofford did lead Furman 14-10 at the half (final score 27-14 Furman)

http://www.gomocs.com/fls/17700/stats/football/2013/utc1109.htm



(http://www.gomocs.com/fls/17700/stats/football/2013/utc1109.htm)

[PaladinFan]

For the most part that is true....you've heard the phrase in basketball of good defensive teams being able to turn opponents over....Same can apply In football. You can have a good defense, but if you don't have the ability to turn a opponent over a defense can work it's self out of effectiveness in the course of a game by getting fatigued.
Our defense almost won the JSU game by forcing some bad throws that resulted in pick 6's. Otherwise we lose big....Furman did a good job with that last year. Don't seem to be doing as good a job with that this year so far.

No, it's been tough sledding. You replace some key OL and lose your QB in week 1, there is going to be some growing pains. I think the loss of Hannon put everyone in scramble mode. Even before Hannon's loss, we were not an elite offense.

I am not asking the offense to be the greatest show on turf. I am asking that they don't turn the football over, quit shooting themselves in the foot with penalties, and make a play or two. Even against PC, Furman had what would have been a game winning TD called back for a tackle lining up in the backfield. That kind of stuff costs you football games.

Hopefully we'll see some inspired play this weekend in Orangeburg.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I'm obviously behind, but I guess Reese Hannon is injured?

[PaladinFan]

I'm obviously behind, but I guess Reese Hannon is injured?

Broke his ankle on a relatively nondescript play in week 1 against Gardner Webb. Rolled to the right, and a linebacker dragged him down and fell awkwardly. Had surgery last week. I can only assume he'll be ready to go next year.

[Sandlapper Spike]

That's why they need the University of North Alabama.

The commissioner of the SoCon has said previously the league is not interested in Division II schools. If UNA wants to move up, it needs to petition the OVC (which strikes me as a more natural fit as it is).

As for Jacksonville State, as others have stated, there is no reason to invite a school that would be using the conference as a way station to FBS. The same is true for Liberty (and I don't think JSU and Liberty would be interested at this point anyway for those reasons).

[rokamortis]

(and I don't think JSU and Liberty would be interested at this point anyway for those reasons).

In addition to the fact that the SoCon without App State or GSU is not nearly as attractive as it was with them. Plus the travel isn't any better in the SoCon (and probably worse) than where they are currently.

[chattownmocs]

The commissioner of the SoCon has said previously the league is not interested in Division II schools. If UNA wants to move up, it needs to petition the OVC (which strikes me as a more natural fit as it is).

As for Jacksonville State, as others have stated, there is no reason to invite a school that would be using the conference as a way station to FBS. The same is true for Liberty (and I don't think JSU and Liberty would be interested at this point anyway for those reasons).

North Alabama is not a natural fit? I propose that the SEC and Socon trade names if thats the case.

[chattanoogamocs]

UNA is a much better fit geographically in the OVC than the SoCon...unfortunately the OVC has no interest. They seem to be more interested in concentrating North/Northwest (Kentucky, Illinois) than South.

The ASun and OVC have taken a number of DII start-ups over the years...the Big South and the Southland too. That is something the SoCon has decided they do not want to do and they have stood by that...they feel the conference is old enough and established enough that they do not need to take start-ups, they prefer established DI programs. I'm good with that.

I think one of the tough things working against UNA is location. They are in the middle of nowhere (or at least it feels that way)...not being near an interstate hurts (almost 50 miles to I-65). It is 9 hours plus from Lexington, Greensboro, Charleston. They only people it would be remotely convenient for is Chattanooga and Samford. And no offense intended, but Chattanooga fans would care about UNA about as much as we did Elon. It's nothing personal, there is just no history with them...they are closer (distance) to Arkansas than Chattanooga.

Personally, I would have loved JSU coming in with Samford...after a decade in the SoCon Chattanooga/JSU and JSU/Samford would have been some pretty bitter rivalries.

[walliver]

Current NCAA policies on moving up, especially as it relates to March Madness money, makes move-ups unattractive to most conferences.

The Big South, in order to maintain their football auto bid, needs to keep its FB numbers up and tends to be more accepting.

Wofford was an independent D-1 program for two years before joining, and had to sit out the conference tournament for two more years (and the NCAA then changed the rules). Elon had played for several years in the Big South, which did not yet sponsor football).

It is possible to move up without a conference, but scheduling can be difficult.

Probably the best bet for UNA would be A-Sun for most sports and Big South affiliate for football.

[Mocs123]

Personally, I would have loved JSU coming in with Samford...after a decade in the SoCon Chattanooga/JSU and JSU/Samford would have been some pretty bitter rivalries.

I would have loved to have had JSU in the SoCon too. I feel like they are our best rival in Football even though they are in the OVC. I am at least glad we are playing them again.

[kperk014]

UNA is a much better fit geographically in the OVC than the SoCon...unfortunately the OVC has no interest. They seem to be more interested in concentrating North/Northwest (Kentucky, Illinois) than South.

The ASun and OVC have taken a number of DII start-ups over the years...the Big South and the Southland too. That is something the SoCon has decided they do not want to do and they have stood by that...they feel the conference is old enough and established enough that they do not need to take start-ups, they prefer established DI programs. I'm good with that.

I think one of the tough things working against UNA is location. They are in the middle of nowhere (or at least it feels that way)...not being near an interstate hurts (almost 50 miles to I-65). It is 9 hours plus from Lexington, Greensboro, Charleston. They only people it would be remotely convenient for is Chattanooga and Samford. And no offense intended, but Chattanooga fans would care about UNA about as much as we did Elon. It's nothing personal, there is just no history with them...they are closer (distance) to Arkansas than Chattanooga.

Personally, I would have loved JSU coming in with Samford...after a decade in the SoCon Chattanooga/JSU and JSU/Samford would have been some pretty bitter rivalries.

Of course you wouldn't until we kicked your butts a few times. That's when rivalries are born. As far as distance, I didn't realize 173 miles is a longer trip than 427 miles to Magnolia, Arkansas. Rod Stewart and the Rolling Stones had no trouble coming here from England and neither did Bob Seger, Paul Simon, Aretha Franklin, the Eagles, Boz Scaggs, Bob Dylan, Black Keys etc.

[chattanoogamocs]

Of course you wouldn't until we kicked your butts a few times. That's when rivalries are born. As far as distance, I didn't realize 173 miles is a longer trip than 427 miles to Magnolia, Arkansas. Rod Stewart and the Rolling Stones had no trouble coming here from England and neither did Bob Seger, Paul Simon, Aretha Franklin, the Eagles, Boz Scaggs, Bob Dylan, Black Keys etc.

I have no idea where Magnolia is, but I know West Memphis, AR is closer. And yeah, I watched the documentary about Muscles Shoals...funny that throughout the film they continually marvel at all those musicians showing up in the middle of nowhere...so thanks for strengthening my argument. Of course, those musicians had a had a reason to come there...at the time, FAME was one of a kind...in that regard, UNA is nothing special...just another DII looking to move up.

Look, I don't have anything personal against UNA and I didn't mean to get your panties in a twist by giving an honest assessment. You could be the best DII in the whole country (sometimes in football you have been), but Florence is still in the middle of nowhere (across the river from a town that has two recording studios) and no DI conference gives a ****. Life sucks like that sometimes. I have no doubt that if UNA was in a large city, they'd already be DI.

[kperk014]

I have no idea where Magnolia is, but I know West Memphis, AR is closer. And yeah, I watched the documentary about Muscles Shoals...funny that throughout the film they continually marvel at all those musicians showing up in the middle of nowhere...so thanks for strengthening my argument. Of course, those musicians had a had a reason to come there...at the time, FAME was one of a kind...in that regard, UNA is nothing special...just another DII looking to move up.

Look, I don't have anything personal against UNA and I didn't mean to get your panties in a twist by giving an honest assessment. You could be the best DII in the whole country (sometimes in football you have been), but Florence is still in the middle of nowhere (across the river from a town that has two recording studios) and no DI conference gives a ****. Life sucks like that sometimes. I have no doubt that if UNA was in a large city, they'd already be DI.

Too bad you haven't the intelligence to know there are no teams in West Memphis which is still further than Chattahoochie. I guess we are in the middle of nowhere if you're saying the middle of Memphis, Nashville, Birmingham and yes, Chattahoochie is the middle of nowhere. Too bad you "big city" boys need interstates to drive on. 5 lane divided highways (which we have in all directions) work fine for most Americans. And only mocs wear panties, not Lions. xthumbsupx

Edit: And oh yes, I remember when chattahoochie was just another D2 looking to move up. Nothing special and, unfortunately for you, still isn't.

[Reign of Terrier]

why are we talking about hypotheticals that are totally irrelevant to this thread?

[kperk014]

why are we talking about hypotheticals that are totally irrelevant to this thread?

Since losing APSU and GSU, the Socon could use some help. A shot of new blood would do the conference good instead of recycling the trash.

[Reign of Terrier]

Since losing APSU and GSU, the Socon could use some help. A shot of new blood would do the conference good instead of recycling the trash.

Cool Story bro, it's really weird that you're calling the Socon a trashy conference when I forgot the team you're talking about existed

[CID1990]

Since losing APSU and GSU, the Socon could use some help. A shot of new blood would do the conference good instead of recycling the trash.

nobody cares that asu and gsu left

see: marshall

[kperk014]

nobody cares that asu and gsu left

see: marshall

Yes and see: mediocrity. Two teams in the top 25. Doubt they'll be there long.

[kperk014]

Cool Story bro, it's really weird that you're calling the Socon a trashy conference when I forgot the team you're talking about existed

And what great accomplishments does, whoever you support, have to boast about? You wouldn't happen to be with the recycled etsu, would you. UNA used to beat them like a drum. If we would be a certain W, why is there an obvious desire NOT to find out?

[chattownmocs]

I'd rather have UNA than st least one of the teams we added but its not happening. We are at 9 teams which is obviously where the conference wants to be.sorry.

[kperk014]

I'd rather have UNA than st least one of the teams we added but its not happening. We are at 9 teams which is obviously where the conference wants to be.sorry.

Yes, they should go ahead and invite us in for when etsu quits again. :D

[CID1990]

Yes and see: mediocrity. Two teams in the top 25. Doubt they'll be there long.

and asu wouldnt be in the top 25 even if they were still in the socon

we dont feel the need to live vicariously through other teams

but apparently neither do asu or gsu given the sun blet

[kperk014]

and asu wouldnt be in the top 25 even if they were still in the socon

we dont feel the need to live vicariously through other teams

but apparently neither do asu or gsu given the sun blet

Not saying you do but the Socon could have made a solid add immediately with North Alabama rather than etsu and Mercer. I didn't even know they played football.

[chattanoogamocs]

Too bad you haven't the intelligence to know there are no teams in West Memphis which is still further than Chattahoochie. I guess we are in the middle of nowhere if you're saying the middle of Memphis, Nashville, Birmingham and yes, Chattahoochie is the middle of nowhere. Too bad you "big city" boys need interstates to drive on. 5 lane divided highways (which we have in all directions) work fine for most Americans. And only mocs wear panties, not Lions. xthumbsupx

Edit: And oh yes, I remember when chattahoochie was just another D2 looking to move up. Nothing special and, unfortunately for you, still isn't.

Last time I checked, when Chattanooga moved up, they had no problem finding a conference to take them. Sorry that no one wants your podunk cow college. Listen, I feel for ya, it has to really suck to have to go around begging for someone to invite you to the big boy table and everyone just kind of ignores you.

All I know is that every time I take a leak and flush the toilet...sooner or later it ends up in Florence...something to remember time you take a big ole drink of water at UNA. xdrunkyx

[walliver]

Not saying you do but the Socon could have made a solid add immediately with North Alabama rather than etsu and Mercer. I didn't even know they played football.

North Alabama has a 12% 4 year graduation rate. (source: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-north-alabama-1016).

Don't bother applying.

[Reign of Terrier]

And what great accomplishments does, whoever you support, have to boast about? You wouldn't happen to be with the recycled etsu, would you. UNA used to beat them like a drum. If we would be a certain W, why is there an obvious desire NOT to find out?

We've made the playoffs, have a few conference championships, etc.

Who the hell is UNA?

[kperk014]

Last time I checked, when Chattanooga moved up, they had no problem finding a conference to take them. Sorry that no one wants your podunk cow college. Listen, I feel for ya, it has to really suck to have to go around begging for someone to invite you to the big boy table and everyone just kind of ignores you.

All I know is that every time I take a leak and flush the toilet...sooner or later it ends up in Florence...something to remember time you take a big ole drink of water at UNA. xdrunkyx

Too bad when you turds moved up your only goal was .500. I noticed your overall record is below .500 but hey, you wussies have still got a shot. The reason it's hard to get in right now is because NO ONE knows what still may be about to happen to all of college football on several fronts. So we'll win yet another National Championship or two and then after the landscape is set, we'll come up and be your worst nightmare ..... if you'll have the guts to play us. :p

[kperk014]

We've made the playoffs, have a few conference championships, etc.

Who the hell is UNA?

SIX National Championships and perennial playoff teams in football and quite often in basketball. Nothing special. Who is this wondrous program that has made the playoffs and won a couple of conference championships you speak of.

[Reign of Terrier]

SIX National Championships and perennial playoff teams in football and quite often in basketball. Nothing special. Who is this wondrous program that has made the playoffs and won a couple of conference championships you speak of.

Yeah it's nothing special, it's division 2. No one cares about Northern Alabama. Go home.

[kperk014]

Are you going to kick chattahoochie to the curb with their mighty 15% grad rate? ;) You begged etsu to come back and they won't even list their graduation rate! xlolx Easy to beat is the reason they are in and we aren't.

[Reign of Terrier]

also, six national titles?

Wiki only says three, and they came in the early 90s.

[kperk014]

Yeah it's nothing special, it's division 2. No one cares about Northern Alabama. Go home.

Is that the best you got, little girl? Are you that ashamed of whichever school you're talking about that you can't mention their name? Not that I blame you.

[kperk014]

also, six national titles?

Wiki only says three, and they came in the early 90s.


Three football, two basketball and one volleyball. We won those basketball championships when Troy, Jax State, UT-Martin, North Dakota State etc were still D2.

[chattownmocs]

Too bad when you turds moved up your only goal was .500. I noticed your overall record is below .500 but hey, you wussies have still got a shot. The reason it's hard to get in right now is because NO ONE knows what still may be about to happen to all of college football on several fronts. So we'll win yet another National Championship or two and then after the landscape is set, we'll come up and be your worst nightmare ..... if you'll have the guts to play us. :p

As good as you think you are, you would have to step up recruiting to make it even in the socon. It just wouldn't happen at a school like north bama. I applaud your gusto though.

[chattanoogamocs]

also, six national titles?

Wiki only says three, and they came in the early 90s.

They have also won in other sports...I think maybe Volleyball and something else. Honestly, I don't care enough to look it up.

[chattanoogamocs]

Three football, two basketball and one volleyball. We won those basketball championships when Troy, Jax State, UT-Martin, North Dakota State etc were still D2.

Because all those schools are noted for basketball.

All I remember about Troy from those days was they scored like 400 points in a game versus DeVry...or whatever that massage school in Atlanta was called.

[kperk014]

As good as you think you are, you would have to step up recruiting to make it even in the socon. It just wouldn't happen at a school like north bama. I applaud your gusto though.

When we get the chance, we will. True our metro area is a little less than 150,000 but it is more invested than people in larger cities are in their schools.

[chattownmocs]

When we get the chance, we will. True our metro area is a little less than 150,000 but it is more invested than people in larger cities are in their schools.

Why you instead of a school like valdosta state with even better tradition, and far more fertile recruiting ground?

[kperk014]

Because all those schools are noted for basketball.

All I remember about Troy from those days was they scored like 400 points in a game versus DeVry...or whatever that massage school in Atlanta was called.

And your basketball? I think you may have won the D2 championship the year we finished third. UNA has been D1 caliber for the last 30 years. We refused to move when everyone else did because of the D2 National Championship Game we hosted for 27 years. Too many people didn't want to give that up. So for the last 15 years we've been idling, having already climbed all the mountains in D2 and still about 10,000 per game come to the stadium even though all the schools we used to play (and beat) have moved up and interest took a hit. Now the Championship Game is finally moving on and so will we.

[kperk014]

Why you instead of a school like valdosta state with even better tradition, and far more fertile recruiting ground?

xlolx Are you kidding? We beat the crap out of them almost every year! We beat them 57-7 at their place last year and we are much, MUCH better this year. So if it's a more fertile recruiting ground, you couldn't prove it by outcome.

[kperk014]

They have also won in other sports...I think maybe Volleyball and something else. Honestly, I don't care enough to look it up.

So you don't get your little girl panties dirty, I'll do it for you. Three football, two basketball and one volleyball.

[chattanoogamocs]

And your basketball? I think you may have won the D2 championship the year we finished third. UNA has been D1 caliber for the last 30 years. We refused to move when everyone else did because of the D2 National Championship Game we hosted for 27 years. Too many people didn't want to give that up. So for the last 15 years we've been idling, having already climbed all the mountains in D2 and still about 10,000 per game come to the stadium even though all the schools we used to play (and beat) have moved up and interest took a hit. Now the Championship Game is finally moving on and so will we.

Yeah, I guess Chattanooga could have sat around in DII and kept racking up titles (they have also won in more than one sport)...but instead, they moved up to play real competition.

Men's basketball has been ranked in the top 25 and won 3 game in the Big Dance (including a Sweet 16), the women's team has also been nationally ranked (and the managed to about a have a .500 record in the SEC over the last 15 years...including knocking off the Lady Vols 2 years ago...and they have a win over Rutgers in the NCAA tournament). The wrestling team has been nationally ranked so many times I can't even begin to count...men's and women's golf have both been to the NCAA Championship Finals in the last 5 years (a few years ago, the men's team was ranked #1 for two weeks)...the Softball team has been nationally ranked. The women's cross country team has been nationally ranked.

And yes, football has a long and storied history (with two coaches who are now in the College Football Hall of Fame) and yet is under .500 in the 1,000+ games they have played. Of course, when you have played nearly 150 times against the SEC, it's gonna hurt your numbers.

[kperk014]

Yeah, I guess Chattanooga could have sat around in DII and kept racking up titles (they have also won in more than one sport)...but instead, they moved up to play real competition.

Men's basketball has been ranked in the top 25 and won 3 game in the Big Dance (including a Sweet 16), the women's team has also been nationally ranked (and the managed to about a have a .500 record in the SEC over the last 15 years...including knocking off the Lady Vols 2 years ago...and they have a win over Rutgers in the NCAA tournament). The wrestling team has been nationally ranked so many times I can't even begin to count...men's and women's golf have both been to the NCAA Championship Finals in the last 5 years (a few years ago, the men's team was ranked #1 for two weeks)...the Softball team has been nationally ranked. The women's cross country team has been nationally ranked.

And yes, football has a long and storied history (with two coaches who are now in the College Football Hall of Fame) and yet is under .500 in the 1,000+ games they have played. Of course, when you have played nearly 150 times against the SEC, it's gonna hurt your numbers.

Well good for you. We stayed for the National Championship Game. You moved up for the money. Nothing wrong with that. Of course anyone with football knowledge knows the biggest difference between D2 and FCS is depth because of the scholarship gap. On a given day, the elite D2 teams can go toe-to-toe with the elite FCS teams but couldn't do it week in and week out because of the depth situation. I didn't mean to knock Chattanooga but the snobbish attitudes of some when there's not that much difference is a little irritating.

[PaladinFan]

Well good for you. We stayed for the National Championship Game. You moved up for the money. Nothing wrong with that. Of course anyone with football knowledge knows the biggest difference between D2 and FCS is depth because of the scholarship gap. On a given day, the elite D2 teams can go toe-to-toe with the elite FCS teams but couldn't do it week in and week out because of the depth situation. I didn't mean to knock Chattanooga but the snobbish attitudes of some when there's not that much difference is a little irritating.

Well, that and admission standards.

[kperk014]

Well, that and admission standards.

You just play by the rules given. In 2010 UNA began raising their admission standards and will continue to do so. There was no mandate but their aspirations are to raise the standing of the university and that's a very important one of course.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Wow, what happened? Gardner Webb, Charleston Southern, and freakin SC State beat Cid, Woffy, and Furple??!! Sammy is in first place?? Western is 3rd?

SC State??!! You lost to a freaking MEAC team?

[Big_Fan]

We could have JSU if we wanted them. We don't. Never even HEARD of something called north alabama.


Why would JSU want to be in the SoCon now? OVC to SoCon would be a huge step down. tUNA would make it more appealing, but I doubt we would do it, as we still have eyes on FBS.

[AshevilleApp2]

Wow, what happened? Gardner Webb, Charleston Southern, and freakin SC State beat Cid, Woffy, and Furple??!! Sammy is in first place?? Western is 3rd?

SC State??!! You lost to a freaking MEAC team?

SC State nearly beat App in the playoffs a couple of years back. Twice. Just sayin'.

[PaladinFan]

SC State nearly beat App in the playoffs a couple of years back. Twice. Just sayin'.

App actually did lose to a MEAC team last year at home.

[Sly Fox]

No big surprises with the Big South bottom feeders continuing their 2-year feast on the top of the SoCon. Perhaps VMI had it right in getting back to a league where they might be more competitive.

xthumbsupx

[SU DOG]

No big surprises with the Big South bottom feeders continuing their 2-year feast on the top of the SoCon. Perhaps VMI had it right in getting back to a league where they might be more competitive.

xthumbsupx
Top of the SoCon??? VMI competitive??? No disrespect intended for VMI or our SoCon brethren, but I think your BS enthusiasm is a little overboard.

[AshevilleApp2]

App actually did lose to a MEAC team last year at home.

I do remember that, thanks for pointing it out though!

The point I was trying to make is that SC State has had good teams in recent years and isn't a pushover.

[rokamortis]

Top of the SoCon??? VMI competitive??? No disrespect intended for VMI or our SoCon brethren, but I think your BS enthusiasm is a little overboard.

I'm sure there was no disrespect meant to Samford - just that Furman is historically one of the more succesful SoCon teams and was the at-large qualifier last year and Wofford has been to the playoffs quite frequently in recent years.

The VMI comment was a somewhat inside joke. VMI left the SoCon for the Big South because they thought they'd be more competitive in the upstart league.They thought they just needed some time against weaker competition to rebuild their team and then return at some point to the SoCon. They never found success, even in the fledgling Big South, and certainly were overmatched as some in the conference pushed to get better. The comment is really a dig at VMI, and the SoCon, since the SoCon has seemingly regressed so much. VMI leaving the Big South made it stronger from a competitive standpoint, but as aleague we'll certainly miss having their slot filled in the near term.

[Sly Fox]

What Rok said. When traditional SoCon powers are getting knocked off by the Big South schools not named Coastal Carolina or Liberty on a weekly basis, it is a big shift in the landscape down south. It is getting tougher & tougher to make a case for the SoCon being a better football league right now than the Big South. The scoreboard clearly shows that right now it is not.

As for VMI, I still love that school and their hard luck fans. Good people.

[chattanoogamocs]

Since Chattanooga isn't really near any Big South schools (which is why are are playing 3 OVC schools in the OOC)...I feel like I am pretty unbiased in my assessment (because I have no territorial animosity towards any of the schools)...which is that I think it is pretty obvious that they SoCon has dropped over the last couple of years and the Big South has definitely improved. I am not sure I would go so far as to say that the Big South is definitively ahead of the SoCon, but I definitely think (top to bottom) that they are on par for the time being.

I will say this, I do think that a number of the SoCon teams are at a low ebb from their traditional levels and I feel confident they will rebound (particularly Furman and Wofford)...whereas I feel a couple of the non-CCU/Liberty Big South teams are probably close to being as peaked out as they can get. Realistically, how much further up can a team like CSU climb than where they are right now (unless the school is going to serious invest in the program)? The same could be said for Presbyterian...and probably Gardner-Webb. And even then, they are just barely beating SoCon teams than no one would argue are down right now from their normal levels.

As for VMI...I just assume that they realized that they were going to get killed either way, so it might as well be back in the same conference with the Citadel (I assume that VMI could go 1-11 but as long as the one was The Citadel, they will still meet their fundraising goals for the year) ;)

[PaladinFan]

I do remember that, thanks for pointing it out though!

The point I was trying to make is that SC State has had good teams in recent years and isn't a pushover.

No, they were a top 25 program last season with one of the top ranked defenses in the country. From a look at the roster, it looked like SCSU returned just about everyone off that team except for the QB.

I figured it would be a low scoring game as neither offense is very good against two good defenses. SCSU managed a punt return to Furman's four late in the fourth quarter, which was all that kept it from being Furman's second straight 10-7 loss.

[rokamortis]

Since Chattanooga isn't really near any Big South schools (which is why are are playing 3 OVC schools in the OOC)...I feel like I am pretty unbiased in my assessment (because I have no territorial animosity towards any of the schools)...which is that I think it is pretty obvious that they SoCon has dropped over the last couple of years and the Big South has definitely improved. I am not sure I would go so far as to say that the Big South is definitively ahead of the SoCon, but I definitely think (top to bottom) that they are on par for the time being.

I will say this, I do think that a number of the SoCon teams are at a low ebb from their traditional levels and I feel confident they will rebound (particularly Furman and Wofford)...whereas I feel a couple of the non-CCU/Liberty Big South teams are probably close to being as peaked out as they can get. Realistically, how much further up can a team like CSU climb than where they are right now (unless the school is going to serious invest in the program)? The same could be said for Presbyterian...and probably Gardner-Webb. And even then, they are just barely beating SoCon teams than no one would argue are down right now from their normal levels.

As for VMI...I just assume that they realized that they were going to get killed either way, so it might as well be back in the same conference with the Citadel (I assume that VMI could go 1-11 but as long as the one was The Citadel, they will still meet their fundraising goals for the year) ;)

It would be nice if some of the Big South schools would play Samford and Chattanooga for comparison since it looks like you guys are on top of the conference. Would be good to see how well we match up.

[OL FU]

I ain't sayin' ****. We lost to PC

[dungeonjoe]

I ain't sayin' ****. We lost to PC
I ain't saying anything either. We lost to GWU.

[CSU18]

Since Chattanooga isn't really near any Big South schools (which is why are are playing 3 OVC schools in the OOC)...I feel like I am pretty unbiased in my assessment (because I have no territorial animosity towards any of the schools)...which is that I think it is pretty obvious that they SoCon has dropped over the last couple of years and the Big South has definitely improved. I am not sure I would go so far as to say that the Big South is definitively ahead of the SoCon, but I definitely think (top to bottom) that they are on par for the time being.

I will say this, I do think that a number of the SoCon teams are at a low ebb from their traditional levels and I feel confident they will rebound (particularly Furman and Wofford)...whereas I feel a couple of the non-CCU/Liberty Big South teams are probably close to being as peaked out as they can get. Realistically, how much further up can a team like CSU climb than where they are right now (unless the school is going to serious invest in the program)? The same could be said for Presbyterian...and probably Gardner-Webb. And even then, they are just barely beating SoCon teams than no one would argue are down right now from their normal levels.

As for VMI...I just assume that they realized that they were going to get killed either way, so it might as well be back in the same conference with the Citadel (I assume that VMI could go 1-11 but as long as the one was The Citadel, they will still meet their fundraising goals for the year) ;)

I agree with you about CSU. Coach Chadwell is doing a great job and probably won't be there too much longer. I did talk to the AD and some of the admin at the game - they're starting to see what excitement around the football team can do for the school. They do have plans to make upgrades to the facility. They're breaking ground in January on a new entrance to the stadium and have plans to gradually increase seating over the next 5 years.

I think they're finally "getting it." Worst case scenario would be to invest $ now and the program start to go backwards. They've got a strategic plan and I think it's a good one. You have to remember that the school was founded in 1964, and football didn't start until the early 90's. We just don't have any deep pocket alumni yet and especially no deep pocket football alumni.

[Biff]

I agree with you about CSU. Coach Chadwell is doing a great job and probably won't be there too much longer. I did talk to the AD and some of the admin at the game - they're starting to see what excitement around the football team can do for the school. They do have plans to make upgrades to the facility. They're breaking ground in January on a new entrance to the stadium and have plans to gradually increase seating over the next 5 years.

I think they're finally "getting it." Worst case scenario would be to invest $ now and the program start to go backwards. They've got a strategic plan and I think it's a good one. You have to remember that the school was founded in 1964, and football didn't start until the early 90's. We just don't have any deep pocket alumni yet and especially no deep pocket football alumni.

If I am going to support my Dogs and have to attend CSU to do it … DEAR GOD, GET A BETTER FACILITY FASTER THAN 5 YEARS. Our knobs get better treatment in the barracks than I got as a visitor.

That said, Congrats on the Win. Your fans were in the game the whole time and the team seemed thoroughly pleased with the accomplishment.

[chattanoogamocs]

It would be nice if some of the Big South schools would play Samford and Chattanooga for comparison since it looks like you guys are on top of the conference. Would be good to see how well we match up.

Yeah, we are just too far out of the footprint to play many games with you guys (I think Pres still owes us a home game at some point...though now that I think about it, they may have bought out that game to take an FBS game...Vanderbilt a year or two ago? I'm getting old, it's all a little fuzzy).

We have Austin Peay, Tennessee Tech, and Jacksonville State in the OOC (and UT Martin) over the next 4 years...all of those schools are short drives for our fan base to travel to and they all have a lot of alums that live in Chattanooga that help increase ticket revenue. It just makes financial sense for both sides.

That being said, I would still love to see a UTC/CCU matchup someday.

[ElCid]

I ain't sayin' ****. We lost to PC


I ain't saying anything either. We lost to GWU.

I certainly ain't sayin' anything as we lost to Chuck South....twice....in a row.

[CID1990]

I ain't sayin' ****. We lost to PC

And we made CSU look like Auburn