Idaho FB back to the Big Sky Conf.?

[kdinva]

(if this is a duplicated thread topic, I apologize)

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/log/index.php/2014/06/29/idaho-s-case-for-fcs?blog=2

potentially would mean a conference w/14 squads.........

[Kabooom]

(if this is a duplicated thread topic, I apologize)

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/log/index.php/2014/06/29/idaho-s-case-for-fcs?blog=2

potentially would mean a conference w/14 squads.........

No.....In regards to their Football program, Idaho still thinks it belongs in the Pac 12. They are too smug, and therefore too Goody for the lowly Pig Sty Conference. They really need to get over it.....

Go Griz!

BEAT STATE!

[MplsBison]

(if this is a duplicated thread topic, I apologize)

http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/log/index.php/2014/06/29/idaho-s-case-for-fcs?blog=2

potentially would mean a conference w/14 squads.........

Did not read the article, because it has zero credibility.

Is it any great wonder why a site promoting the FCS subdivision would write about Idaho supposedly considering a return to FCS?


Idaho will drop football, period, before it comes back to FCS. They're in FBS or they're out of football altogether.

And before you get excited about the FCS and the G5 merging, don't. Save your fingers. That will never happen either.

[Silenoz]

They will NEVER move down. Too much pride and angst over BSU's success

[dbackjon]

This gold, Ursus.

Where the F is MplsBison to rub his face in it?

[Daytripper]

Neva say Neva....

[ursus arctos horribilis]

This gold, Ursus.

Where the F is MplsBison to rub his face in it?
He was absolutely sure I couldn't nail him down but he got that wrong. xlolx

His anonymity being lost apparently made him uncomfortable and he stopped posting.

There are other threads where he had went on long tirades about how something like this couldn't happen. Once I track them down we'll have plenty of chuckles coming around again.

[dbackjon]

He was absolutely sure I couldn't nail him down but he got that wrong. xlolx

His anonymity being lost apparently made him uncomfortable and he stopped posting.

There are other threads where he had went on long tirades about how something like this couldn't happen. Once I track them down we'll have plenty of chuckles coming around again.


He got outted?

[clenz]

He got outted?

Yeah, when did I miss that?

[Laker]

He got outted?


Yeah, when did I miss that?

I'd say it was the Go Fund Me page that opened the door. :D

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I didn't put it out publicly, as I said I would not do that. But I apparently scared him with a reply and he pm'd me and I let him know that he was not anonymous...to me. That, I suppose, is why he stopped posting and has not even logged in for a very long time. In fact it was right after the pm reply back to him that he just quit I think.

[dgtw]

Is he somebody we would know if we heard his real name?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Is he somebody we would know if we heard his real name?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No. I think it would be an embarrassment for him as some who are less refined might make it a known issue where he works/posts from.

Anyway, we were playing the game "1 question" and I answered it just in case anyone else has further questions. xlolx

[BisonFan02]

No. I think it would be an embarrassment for him as some who are less refined might make it a known issue where he works/posts from.

Anyway, we were playing the game "1 question" and I answered it just in case anyone else has further questions. xlolx

Illuminati :D

[goyotes]

The attached PDF file (82 pages) is Idaho's consultant report. Some interesting reading. Not sure how much expertise the consultants provided; one of their possible outcomes is NDSU and SDSU remaining FCS and USD joining the FBS division of the Big Sky / WAC.
http://file:///C:/Users/Ron/Downloads/idaho-report-final.pdf

[dgtw]

No. I think it would be an embarrassment for him as some who are less refined might make it a known issue where he works/posts from.

Anyway, we were playing the game "1 question" and I answered it just in case anyone else has further questions. xlolx

Thanks. I wasn't expecting you to name him, just curious if it was somebody famous.

I do appreciate you respecting the members' privacy on here, even if someone is being an idiot.

[mmiller_34]

The attached PDF file (82 pages) is Idaho's consultant report. Some interesting reading. Not sure how much expertise the consultants provided; one of their possible outcomes is NDSU and SDSU remaining FCS and USD joining the FBS division of the Big Sky / WAC.
http://file:///C:/Users/Ron/Downloads/idaho-report-final.pdf

Can you try posting that again? Doesn't seem to be working I'd like to read that document.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Can you try posting that again? Doesn't seem to be working I'd like to read that document.

I also got a "server not found" page.

[mmiller_34]

Thanks. I wasn't expecting you to name him, just curious if it was somebody famous.

I do appreciate you respecting the members' privacy on here, even if someone is being an idiot.

I am also curious about this. I was wondering what ever happened to him.

[goyotes]

Try this link and then click on the consultants report in the upper right hand corner
http://www.uidaho.edu/president/communications/ftball-announcement?utm_campaign=ftball-conf-announcement2016&utm_source=press-release_vandal-vibe_internal-memo&utm_medium=digital_general

[ursus arctos horribilis]

That works, thanks.

[BisonTru]

The attached PDF file (82 pages) is Idaho's consultant report. Some interesting reading. Not sure how much expertise the consultants provided; one of their possible outcomes is NDSU and SDSU remaining FCS and USD joining the FBS division of the Big Sky / WAC.
http://file:///C:/Users/Ron/Downloads/idaho-report-final.pdf

Thanks for sharing. Skimming through it, sounds like neither C-USA or MWC have any interest in Idaho. So they really have three options, drop football, join the Big Sky, or try and re-instate WAC FBS football. The last being the biggest up hill battle.

They would need 8 schools for WAC football, and it sounds like neither NDSU or SDSU would be interested. So, IMO, they would have to get the Montana schools on board to even get this idea moving.

Quote about NDSU and SDSU:

North Dakota State and South Dakota State have stated publicly they do not havean interest in moving to FBS. However, it appears from discussions with each schoolthere is not an interest in the WAC, should it reinstate football or go with a combinedWAC/Big Sky option. As a side note, there has been strong speculation that bothinstitutions could be invited to join the Missouri Valley Conference as a full member,not just the MVFC.

[Pinnum]

The attached PDF file (82 pages) is Idaho's consultant report. Some interesting reading. Not sure how much expertise the consultants provided; one of their possible outcomes is NDSU and SDSU remaining FCS and USD joining the FBS division of the Big Sky / WAC.
http://file:///C:/Users/Ron/Downloads/idaho-report-final.pdf

You posted the local path on your computer. No one can access your computer.

[goyotes]

You posted the local path on your computer. No one can access your computer.

Fixed it in post #20

[F'N Hawks]

Quote about NDSU and SDSU:


The Jacks trying to separate from the Yotes?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The WAC in my estimation was a true hail-mary since I thought there was no way on earth they could resurrect that zombie. For a time there was a "grace period" where the WAC could restart sponsorship of FBS football but they required six (I think) existing FBS members to even get that done. That grace period has long since expired, and even if that was waived/extended, I don't think taking FCS call-ups would have been enough. They would have required Idaho, NMSU, UMass, and three other existing FBS schools to do it, and no MWC, AAC, MAC or Sun Belt school would be so dim as to try it.

[clenz]

Quote about NDSU and SDSU:

North Dakota State and South Dakota State have stated publicly they do not havean interest in moving to FBS. However, it appears from discussions with each schoolthere is not an interest in the WAC, should it reinstate football or go with a combinedWAC/Big Sky option. As a side note, there has been strong speculation that bothinstitutions could be invited to join the Missouri Valley Conference as a full member,not just the MVFC.
At this point, bring it on. The private schools aren't doing anything to get better....

UNI's looking for an out of the MVC anyway. You can bet your ass that process is put straight to the front burner if WSU leaves....

[dbackjon]

At this point, bring it on. The private schools aren't doing anything to get better....

UNI's looking for an out of the MVC anyway. You can bet your ass that process is put straight to the front burner if WSU leaves....

And where could UNI go?

[clenz]

And where could UNI go?
Have a few ideas and heard a few things from people as to about 3 plans being looked at and prepared for depending what happens.

Might go nowhere. Might find a new home.
It's being looked at

[PAllen]

Idaho, NMSU, NDSU, SDSU, Montana, Montana St., UNI. That's a pretty good FB conference. Most likely better than the Sun Belt and probably at least as good as the current iteration of C-USA. It's a shame it didn't happen.

[dbackjon]

Have a few ideas and heard a few things from people as to about 3 plans being looked at and prepared for depending what happens.

Might go nowhere. Might find a new home.
It's being looked at

Such as?

[jacksfan29]

No, if you read the report it never mentions if USD is actually interested in FBS; my guess is if they talked to Herbster he didn't say no and didn't say yes. In fact, the paragraph which so many are interested in is following a statement in the report in which it mentions that Foolerton and Hurd discussed the possibility, and the idea was shot down. The consultant than goes on to SPECULATE on the idea stating that if the discussions were to happen again a possible scenario could be...

It does seem that the consultants did speak with SDSU and NDSU and both are not interested in FBS (though the sentence is confusing). The next sentence is more clear. Neither SDSU or NDSU have any interest in moving west to the BSC or WAC. If you look at how the two State schools moved up, and how they have handled themselves since moving up there will be no rash moves from either. And taking a chance on a rejuvenated WAC/FBS would be a rash and risky move. Especially when you read the report and realize that neither Montana school seem to committed to the idea.

One last item. SDSU has been tied at the hip with NDSU since day one of the move to D1. USD came in later with UND. I don't think anyone at SDSU feels tied to USD now nor does anyone at SDSU feel we need to separate ourselves from USD. We, along with NDSU and UNI fought hard to get USD into the MVFC. We would not have done so if we didn't want to be associated with them. That said, if a chance to move to a stronger BB conference without USD comes we will take it.


The Jacks trying to separate from the Yotes?

[No_Skill]

Have a few ideas and heard a few things from people as to about 3 plans being looked at and prepared for depending what happens.

Might go nowhere. Might find a new home.
It's being looked at

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/top_men_indiana_jones.gif

[BisonFan02]

And where could UNI go?

The Summit League!!!!! (it was on a tee.... xlolx )

[taper]

Idaho, NMSU, NDSU, SDSU, Montana, Montana St., UNI. That's a pretty good FB conference. Most likely better than the Sun Belt and probably at least as good as the current iteration of C-USA. It's a shame it didn't happen.

Sagarin Rankings have the MVFC as it is above C-USA and Sunbelt(and MAC-east) already. If the BSC lost some deadwood they'd be right up there too.

Oh, that that conference you listed has a huge geographic footprint. Covers around a third of the country. Little ironic coming from a region that won't go more than 200 miles for a game.

[Hammersmith]

The WAC in my estimation was a true hail-mary since I thought there was no way on earth they could resurrect that zombie. For a time there was a "grace period" where the WAC could restart sponsorship of FBS football but they required six (I think) existing FBS members to even get that done. That grace period has long since expired, and even if that was waived/extended, I don't think taking FCS call-ups would have been enough. They would have required Idaho, NMSU, UMass, and three other existing FBS schools to do it, and no MWC, AAC, MAC or Sun Belt school would be so dim as to try it.

Turns out this isn't true. Part of the Idaho study says the WAC compliance officer has contacted the NCAA and been told the ability for the WAC to invite FCS schools into FBS is indefinite. Go figure.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Turns out this isn't true. Part of the Idaho study says the WAC compliance officer has contacted the NCAA and been told the ability for the WAC to invite FCS schools into FBS is indefinite. Go figure.

I don't know the definite but I know that Fullerton has kept that WAC thing close over the last couple of years and I assume it is for some reason.

Be interesting to find out at some point what it is all about.

[Hammersmith]

I don't know the definite but I know that Fullerton has kept that WAC thing close over the last couple of years and I assume it is for some reason.

Be interesting to find out at some point what it is all about.

Most of it is in the Idaho report. Fullerton has had a lot of big plans over the years. Most of the time he hasn't had the votes to push them through. The one time he got the votes, it blew up in his face.

Plan A: Increase the power of the BSC and dominate western(and beyond) I-AA by adding NDSU, SDSU & UNC.
Result: Couldn't get the votes for all three. UNC became a national joke(stabbing punters). NDSU & SDSU lost to Gateway.

Plan B: Create an FCS super-conference. The west becomes three conferences: Pac-16, MWC, BSC-16. Get NDSU & SDSU by destroying Summit.
Result: Got the votes. Plan failed at the last minute when the Summit and MVFC got USD back. BSC ends up with an unwieldy number, no divisions to reduce travel costs, and an island member in UND. Doubt the presidents were all that happy with the outcome.

Plan C: Create a WAC/BSC FBS/FCS hybrid conference. Eight schools on the FBS side, six to eight schools on the FCS. Divisions for the Olympic sports.
Result: Couldn't get the votes from either the BSC or the needed WAC/SBC schools.

And that's where we stand. Fullerton has about two months to change minds as a lame duck commissioner. Doubtful, but technically possible.


Quote from the Idaho report:

Three years ago, Big Sky Commissioner Doug Fullerton and WAC Commissioner Jeff Hurd visited about the possibility of combining the two conferences, and having part of the league participate in FBS and the remainder in FCS for football. The idea did gain some interest, but was ultimately shot down. However, there could be an opportunity to rekindle these discussions. Here is a possible scenario should it gain traction:

Football
 FBS – Idaho, New Mexico State, Montana, Montana State, North Dakota, South Dakota, Cal Poly and Northern Arizona (8 teams).
 FCS – Eastern Washington, Idaho State, Portland State, UC-Davis, Sacramento State, Southern Utah and Northern Colorado (7 teams). If they can meet the academic criteria and budget criteria, and have an interest in “moving up” to FBS, they certainly would be considered.

Basketball
 North Division – Montana, Montana State, North Dakota, South Dakota, Eastern Washington, Portland State, Idaho State, Seattle University and Idaho (9 teams).
 South Division – Sacramento State, Southern Utah, New Mexico State, Northern Colorado, Weber State, Utah Valley, Grand Canyon State, UTRGV and CSU-Bakersfield (9 teams).

With this, most rivalries would be maintained – and some enhanced. Scheduling would be much easier, and schools would be much more similar. There would be a lot of parity in all leagues. Academic criteria under the Carnegie rating service would also be a consideration. There would also be possibilities for more revenue streams for higher-level FCS product in terms of television, ticket pricing, NCAA/conference monies and corporate dollars. Plus, with more regional competition, there could be money savings in travel, etc.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm not for FBS anyway HS but the fact that there is a possible path in case things change sort of makes me laugh due to all the "door is closed' stuff over the last 5 years.

You can talk dismissively about Fullerton I guess and his ideas but if he was your commissioner and he was trying this hard to be proactive in the current climate....I'd think you'd have a bit more respect for the effort being made. Just seems a bit odd to be poopooing the efforts of an imaginative and proactive conference commish.

Once he is gone do you think that ends all he has worked on btw? I sure don't.

[BisonTru]

I'm not for FBS anyway HS but the fact that there is a possible path in case things change sort of makes me laugh due to all the "door is closed' stuff over the last 5 years.

You can talk dismissively about Fullerton I guess and his ideas but if he was your commissioner and he was trying this hard to be proactive in the current climate....I'd think you'd have a bit more respect for the effort being made. Just seems a bit odd to be poopooing the efforts of an imaginative and proactive conference commish.

Once he is gone do you think that ends all he has worked on btw? I sure don't.

I guess I didn't read that as him poopooing him. Just he's had some big plans and things somewhat out of his control have derailed some of them.

Quick FBS question, if this shuffling starts happening. If the MWC has one spot for Montana, but isn't interested in Montana St. Could they go? And would they go?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Turns out this isn't true. Part of the Idaho study says the WAC compliance officer has contacted the NCAA and been told the ability for the WAC to invite FCS schools into FBS is indefinite. Go figure.

Thanks for the heads-up. Looks like I need to look at that report closely now. That is very interesting.

Side note: Wasn't the Missouri Valley an FBS conference for like few years in 1978?

Another side note: If the WAC's ticket to starting FBS football is indefinite, how many hours will it take the CAA to sue the NCAA for unfairly preventing them from sponsoring FBS football?

[Hammersmith]

I guess I didn't read that as him poopooing him. Just he's had some big plans and things somewhat out of his control have derailed some of them.

Quick FBS question, if this shuffling starts happening. If the MWC has one spot for Montana, but isn't interested in Montana St. Could they go? And would they go?

Poopooing isn't the word I would use, but I definitely don't care for Fullerton; Ursus is right about that. It's not that I think all his plans are bad(though the last one isn't that great), but I don't like how he's gone about one or two of them. I'm all for improving your own conference, but I draw the line at actively trying to destroy another conference just to improve your own. I truly believe that's what Fullerton was trying to do back in 2010-11. Instead of improving the Big Sky on its own to become a conference that the xDSUs would want to be part of, he tried to destabilize the Summit in order to force them and one or two others to switch conferences. To me, that was crossing the line. But I'm not trying to convince anyone else to feel the same way.

The plan as I saw it:
Grab SUU to remove a Summit member
Grab UND & USD to remove the Summit's expansion candidates(USD had already agreed to join; UND's acceptance was a formality)
Hope for the Horizon to take Oakland and/or someone to take ORU
Grab NDSU & SDSU when the Summit drops to six members* and is about to lose the MBB autobid

If the Summit hadn't gotten USD back, his plan might have worked. That gave the Summit enough time to get UNO, which gave enough time to get Denver, which helped entice ORU back. But it was close.



*NDSU, SDSU, IPFW, IUPUI, WIU & UMKC

[BisonTru]

To play devils advocate. I don't have a strong opinion on him either way. I think he should try to get some defensive minded people in his league. :D




The plan as I saw it:
Grab SUU to remove a Summit member This one makes sense since they are more in the BS footprint than the Summit

Grab UND & USD to remove the Summit's expansion candidates(USD had already agreed to join; UND's acceptance was a formality)He wanted the XDSUs, why wouldn't he have tried for the UXDs as well?

Hope for the Horizon to take Oakland and/or someone to take ORUWas there any indication he felt this way?

Grab NDSU & SDSU when the Summit drops to six members* and is about to lose the MBB autobidWould have been ok for us, would have sucked for the IUPUs and WIU (maybe the MVC would let in western? sympathetically)


If the Summit hadn't gotten USD back, his plan might have worked. That gave the Summit enough time to get UNO, which gave enough time to get Denver, which helped entice ORU back. But it was close.



*NDSU, SDSU, IPFW, IUPUI, WIU & UMKC

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I guess I didn't read that as him poopooing him. Just he's had some big plans and things somewhat out of his control have derailed some of them.

Quick FBS question, if this shuffling starts happening. If the MWC has one spot for Montana, but isn't interested in Montana St. Could they go? And would they go?

Very possible I read it wrong cuz it did seem way out of character for Hammer so I'll admit I probably got the tone incorrect.

First question on MWC would probably be who left? If all were still there then it would make it harder I suppose because there are a lot of old rival there.

BUT

Personally, leaving MSU is a no go for me. I cherish that rivalry. It's meant everything my whole life. Besides, my thing on FBS is never going to change. If they decided to do things our way I would consider personally changing my mind right quick. I just have zero interest in what they have going on at this point.

Sorry to HS if I got you wrong.

[Catbooster]

Very possible I read it wrong cuz it did seem way out of character for Hammer so I'll admit I probably got the tone incorrect.

First question on MWC would probably be who left? If all were still there then it would make it harder I suppose because there are a lot of old rival there.

BUT

Personally, leaving MSU is a no go for me. I cherish that rivalry. It's meant everything my whole life. Besides, my thing on FBS is never going to change. If they decided to do things our way I would consider personally changing my mind right quick. I just have zero interest in what they have going on at this point.

Sorry to HS if I got you wrong.

This is essentially how I feel about it too - the rivalry is important to me and I don't see the lower level of FBS as being an improvement from the upper level of FCS (yes, I know that's my opinion as a biased FCS fan). We had a long span (a long time ago) when UM was in the higher division and we were in the lower division. The rivalry lasted through that, but I don't think it would with the way things are in college football now. Additionally I don't think the Board of Regents or legislature would approve one of us moving up without the other.

Personally, I'm not sure that the timing is good for either UM or MSU to move up right now. UM's athletic department is in better shape than ours, but on the academic side they've had enrollment decreases and associated budget problems the last couple years. For practical and political reasons, that makes this a relatively bad time for a perceived increased emphasis on athletics for them. On the other hand, MSU has been doing well on the academic side, but could use some facilities improvements for athletics. Regardless, I'd say we're both in better shape for FBS than Idaho is - they've had declining enrollment lately and their facilities are way behind - the combined disadvantages of UM and MSU with none of the advantages.

Beyond that, if the MWC/Big Sky don't want to extend their footprint to the midwest, they probably would have to take anyone willing to join them. So having to split UM/MSU is likely a moot point. If we assume the MVFC, etc. teams don't want to be in a conference that far away and/or the MWC doesn't want teams that far apart, who do they have to choose from? Idaho and NMSU (since they're already FBS), ...who else? Big Sky teams? Who else is in the west is ready and/or wants to go to MWC for FBS? Despite what I said above, I think UM and MSU may be the only Big Sky teams that are arguably "ready" to make the jump to FBS based on facilities, attendance (assuming we use the 15k "requirement"), etc. And I don't hear much from the Big Sky schools about a strong desire to move up (other than Idaho). Maybe I'm just not paying attention and viewing everything through my FCS bias.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Catboost makes a great point there. I very rarely see or hear even MT fans let alone fans of other BSC teams ranting for a jump to FBS. It just doesn't seem to really mean anything to the majority and being a conference that satisfies you is probably a big reason for that.

[clenz]

Catboost makes a great point there. I very rarely see or hear even MT fans let alone fans of other BSC teams ranting for a jump to FBS. It just doesn't seem to really mean anything to the majority and being a conference that satisfies you is probably a big reason for that.
Bolded line is key.

The last two years, or so, I've found myself being more okay with the idea of an FBS move to the right situation simply because I, and many UNI/Wichita State fans, are growing increasingly unhappy with the MVC.

I really like the MVFC, but finding a better all sports home likely means the MVFC wouldn't be an option at that point.

[mvemjsunpx]

Catboost makes a great point there. I very rarely see or hear even MT fans let alone fans of other BSC teams ranting for a jump to FBS. It just doesn't seem to really mean anything to the majority and being a conference that satisfies you is probably a big reason for that.

You obviously don't go on eGriz. xlolx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You obviously don't go on eGriz. xlolx

Nope. for reasons like that I won't entertain certain kinds of idiocy. I'm talking about general conversations with people around the Town/State. I have seen some of the internet lost children doing it on CS a while back as well...which you probably witnessed in the old WAC thread between me and AZGriz.

I stomped that poor SOB's balls into the ground! xlolx

[dbackjon]

You obviously don't go on eGriz. xlolx


Touche

[Laker]

Nope. for reasons like that I won't entertain certain kinds of idiocy. I'm talking about general conversations with people around the Town/State. I have seen some of the internet lost children doing it on CS a while back as well...which you probably witnessed in the old WAC thread between me and AZGriz.

I stomped that poor SOB's balls into the ground! xlolx

Testicle Festival? :D

[dbackjon]

Testicle Festival? :D


ursus doesn't swing that way (at least he rejected me - How was I to know the 6-pack rule didn't work with Ursus?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

ursus doesn't swing that way (at least he rejected me - How was I to know the 6-pack rule didn't work with Ursus?

I just been a heavy drinker for so long Jon that a sixer will just get me to act like a tease at best. If I did swing that way though you'd be in buddy, you are a handsome SOB.xthumbsupx

God damn Laker. Drifting a BSC thread like this!

[Laker]

I just been a heavy drinker for so long Jon that a sixer will just get me to act like a tease at best. If I did swing that way though you'd be in buddy, you are a handsome SOB.xthumbsupx

God damn Laker. Drifting a BSC thread like this!

I had a former basketball player who worked up in Libby with AmeriCorps. She was the one who told me about going to a Testicle Festival somewhere up there.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I had a former basketball player who worked up in Libby with AmeriCorps. She was the one who told me about going to a Testicle Festival somewhere up there.

Yes, just outside Missoula a bit. Very large event annually. It ain't what you'd call a PC event and I've witnessed a lot of morons that want to run their mouths get their asses kicked. It's fun for a while but is just a bit too known now I think.

Not sure why anyone would eat a ball of any sort but to each their own.

Here's a Vice article on it.

https://www.vice.com/read/having-a-ball-or-two-at-the-montana-testicle-festival-999

[catamount man]

I just been a heavy drinker for so long Jon that a sixer will just get me to act like a tease at best. If I did swing that way though you'd be in buddy, you are a handsome SOB.xthumbsupx

God damn Laker. Drifting a BSC thread like this!

There's a friggin visual. Thanks a lot ya bastage! LOL!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

There's a friggin visual. Thanks a lot ya bastage! LOL!

You're welcome!:D

[BisonFan02]

There's a friggin visual. Thanks a lot ya bastage! LOL!

UAH is probably a power bottom.... xlolx