P5: 85 to 95?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/sports/ncaafootball/fresno-state-faces-the-task-of-keeping-up-with-the-big-5s.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid%3D=tw-nytsports


“The chips have always been stacked against us,” DeRuyter said. “What you have to do is accentuate what you have to offer. Is getting another $1,000 worth more to a recruit than more playing time or winning a conference championship?”

DeRuyter is most concerned about two rumored changes. There is talk that the Big 5 conferences may push to expand the number of football scholarships from 85 to 95. That would steer 120 extra players into the Pacific-12 that might otherwise head to programs like Fresno State’s.

Secondly, some have speculated that the N.C.A.A. might loosen transfer rules, allowing athletes to move freely from one program to another with no penalty. (Generally, athletes now sit out of competition for a year when transferring.) DeRuyter worries that Fresno State and others would lose their best players after a couple of seasons.

“We’d be a minor league for a lot of those conferences,” he said.

Though the subject of the article is Fresno State, the problem would also apply very much to FCS. Thoughts?

[2ram]

this is just as i suggested happening. sucking more athletes into wealthier schools leaving less athletes for lesser schools. might making right. ofc this will escalate until something is done to stop it. if the pac12 gets 95, so will the other p5 schools. we could be talking about ~600 players soaked up by the p5 by this friday, and if that's not enough it could be 1,200 additional by next year.

having said that, this is the part that troubles me the most re: the potential of these changes. the p5 can have their money, their playoffs, their prestige, as long as they can't have all the athletes, thus giving other teams the chance to compete, have their highlights and moments too. but give the p5 all the players to boot, and you've basically deleted teams/leagues that aren't p5.

self governance is scary really. look what's happening in north korea.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You know what? Let them all have 300 scholarships, pay each kid $100,000 and give them each a new BMW and a lux condo. Throw in a closet full of designer threads and free passes to the champagne room, too. If that's how they want to spend (mostly taxpayer) money, so be it. If that's what America's biggest universities think will best guide a young man on the road to success and fulfillment in life, who am I to argue? They're much wiser and more principled than am I.

It will, however, tend to have the effect of separating those who want to play football from those who want to be a football player.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This is how it use to be, right? I was young at the time, but didn't the NCAA reduce scholarship numbers in the early to mid-90's. IIRC, the Tommie Frazier Nebraska teams were the last to have huge rosters, 140+...

[clenz]

This is how it use to be, right? I was young at the time, but didn't the NCAA reduce scholarship numbers in the early to mid-90's. IIRC, the Tommie Frazier Nebraska teams were the last to have huge rosters, 140+...

and it's not a coincidence that when they started shrinking those limits that the FCS caught up with a good chunk of the FBS.

[RichH2]

Well,I'm old enuf to remember.Alabama stockpiling players to keep them away from others and rosters of 130-140 kids. Also,recall the move to single platoon football to curtail costs. Expect p5 to all move to higher schollie caps because they can afford it now. Dont expect it will last long as they will find the additional expense doesn't make them any more money.
The gulf between p5 and the rest of NCAA may entail adverse consequences not only for us but also p5.
Most of NCAA will remain students playing football while p5 will be football players working for a salary.

[superman7515]

we could be talking about ~600 players soaked up by the p5 by this friday, and if that's not enough it could be 1,200 additional by next year.


The P5 conferences do not have the autonomy to change scholarship limits, that still has to be voted on by the entire D1 Council after passing through the presidents; the Council doesn't vote again until April 2016 because the new Council doesn't get seated until September 2015 and rules may only be adopted in April.

[GannonFan]

and it's not a coincidence that when they started shrinking those limits that the FCS caught up with a good chunk of the FBS.

Define good chunk? Has the number of FCS wins over FBS greatly increased in the last few years? I think we've always been right with the MAC and better than the Sun Belt, but that's not really that big of chunk of FBS, is it?

[BEAR]

Imagine your FCS team without 10 or 15 of its top players....

[Bogus Megapardus]

The P5 conferences do not have the autonomy to change scholarship limits, that still has to be voted on by the entire D1 Council after passing through the presidents; the Council doesn't vote again until April 2016 because the new Council doesn't get seated until September 2015 and rules may only be adopted in April.

Why not turn the tables on them? So the bulk of the NCAA voters decide:


"Indeed, all of the rest of us want the P5 to represent the NCAA in the best possible light and with the most competitive players. So we're adopting Proposition S-300: Any NCAA member desiring to play at the P5 level must provide 300 full scholarships, plus a $100,000 stipend, a new car every year, a complete new wardrobe and a fully-furnished condo to each player. We, the rest of the NCAA who dare to play football in your shadow, reserve the right to increase the level of that yearly stipend as we see fit. Like a lot. And all of you have to have 20 full time assistants, each of whom are paid in excess of $500,000 per year. It's for the protection of the student-athletes, of course."

[centexguy]

Between the combination of more scholarships (meaning less playing time from some players) and loosening the transfer rules, I would think allowing players to transfer between FBS schools without having to sit out a year would hurt FCS schools more. You would probably see a lot more players transferring between FBS schools to get playing time without having to drop down to the FCS level.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why not turn the tables on them? So the bulk of the NCAA voters decide:
"Indeed, all of the rest of us want the P5 to represent the NCAA in the best possible light and with the most competitive players. So we're adopting Proposition S-300: Any NCAA member desiring to play at the P5 level [I]must provide 300 full scholarships, plus a $100,000 stipend, a new car every year, a complete new wardrobe and a fully-furnished condo to each player. We, the rest of the NCAA who dare to play football in your shadow, reserve the right to increase the level of that yearly stipend as we see fit. Like a lot. And all of you have to have 20 full time assistants, each of whom are paid in excess of $500,000 per year. It's for the protection of the student-athletes, of course."


I can imagine schools like VCU and George Mason drafting these proposals now.

[BestDaneSinceHamlet]

If a player wants to sit on the bench, then so be it, but one of the reasons you see some of these FCS players get scholarships from FBS schools but choose FCS is playing time. Would Terrance West or Jimmy Garrapalo been able to showcase their NFL caliber talent if they were buried on the bench at Ohio State or Alabama?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I can imagine schools like VCU and George Mason drafting these proposals now.

The penalty for the first violation will be that you have to play the Sun Belt for all your OOC games for the next decade. Second violation - they take your mascot away (and you can't have a new one). Third violation - you have to schedule an away game at Georgetown.

[MplsBison]

The P5 conferences do not have the autonomy to change scholarship limits, that still has to be voted on by the entire D1 Council after passing through the presidents; the Council doesn't vote again until April 2016 because the new Council doesn't get seated until September 2015 and rules may only be adopted in April.

Wait, you mean that the autonomy voting group can't use their new voting structure to approve proposals related to scholarships limits that would directly affect all of the member schools in a (sub)division??

Oh yeah, I forgot -- that's exactly the fact of the matter.


But wait a second, I thought it said "There is talk..."?

Talk! Someone somewhere on the internet is talking. Better report it as fact.


Another aspect that was (predictably) glossed over re: increasing FBS football scholarship maximums is the limit on the number of players that any FBS school can sign each year.

If that doesn't change, then there won't be any more kids going to FBS schools each signing period that there are now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wait, you mean that the autonomy voting group can't use their new voting structure to approve proposals related to scholarships limits that would directly affect all of the member schools in a (sub)division??

Oh yeah, I forgot -- that's exactly the fact of the matter.

As is the fact of the matter that the members of the P5 can say "we want to up the scholarship limits, bozos, because if you don't, we'll separate from the NCAA." Because they made that very threat to get autonomy in the first place. And there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't do it again.

[MplsBison]

As is the fact of the matter that the members of the P5 can say "we want to up the scholarship limits, bozos, because if you don't, we'll separate from the NCAA." Because they made that very threat to get autonomy in the first place. And there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't do it again.

What about Mike Slive being quoted that scholarship limits were not on the table?? Is that not good enough for you?

Any of the articles reporting Slive's comment ("threat") of splitting away from the NCAA should also have his quote where he specifically says that increasing scholarships is not something they care about! If it's not those articles then it's other articles from around that period.


I know I'm wasting my fingers. I know you're just going to say something like "well duh, that's what they want us all to think! They're biding their time before they unleash their true colors!"

To that, all I can do is shake my head and wonder if the color of the sky in your world changes as it's falling.

[MplsBison]

How about this one, for example? http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/24528128/secs-slive-future-of-college-


"Those are the fears but those matters are not on the big five agenda," Slive said. "They are the fears of others but they are not part of our thinking."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What about Mike Slive being quoted that scholarship limits were not on the table?? Is that not good enough for you?

Any of the articles reporting Slive's comment ("threat") of splitting away from the NCAA should also have his quote where he specifically says that increasing scholarships is not something they care about! If it's not those articles then it's other articles from around that period.


I know I'm wasting my fingers. I know you're just going to say something like "well duh, that's what they want us all to think! They're biding their time before they unleash their true colors!"

To that, all I can do is shake my head and wonder if the color of the sky in your world changes as it's falling.

If you're trying to sell somebody something, is telling them that they're going to be bankrupted by their choice a good sales strategy?

[MplsBison]

All I can say is that if the P5 really wanted to cut the G5 out of the deal, then why would the CFP have been written as the most inclusive of the G5 in the history of the major college football postseason?

They wouldn't have done it that way if their goal was to establish an exclusive 65 team subdivision.

[2ram]

All I can say is that if the P5 really wanted to cut the G5 out of the deal, then why would the CFP have been written as the most inclusive of the G5 in the history of the major college football postseason?

They wouldn't have done it that way if their goal was to establish an exclusive 65 team subdivision.

because being inclusive is irrelevant. the p5 didn't secretly meet and decide to cut the g5 out, like the seven dwarfs decided to lie about cigarettes... rather they're unabashedly pursuing self-interest, which is leaving the g5 behind. the motive is known, the result is not.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

because being inclusive is irrelevant. the p5 didn't secretly meet and decide to cut the g5 out, like the seven dwarfs decided to lie about cigarettes... rather they're unabashedly pursuing self-interest, which is leaving the g5 behind. the motive is known, the result is not.

I definitely believe there is an element of the P5 putting a fence around their athletic clubs and eventually forcing the "freeloaders" out. I do think the P5 sees FCS as a sort of minor league, not even in the same competitive zone (App St. vs. Michigan and Sac State vs. Oregon State nonwithstanding) irrelevant to the discussion since they're not sharing in the money. The G5, however, was, and now will effectively be shut out of the lucrative CFB playoff money because there's basically no way they can make the four-game playoff.

[2ram]

yes lfn. my point was that the p5 didn't say "let's play half-court so we don't have to take the fat kids", what they said was "sorry guys, we're running full-court already." and let's face it, that's exactly what they've got.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

yes lfn. my point was that the p5 didn't say "let's play half-court so we don't have to take the fat kids", what they said was "sorry guys, we're running a full court already."

Right. It was only what they meant :)

[Sandlapper Spike]

Honestly, while I've seen some discussion of increasing scholarships in the P5 ranks (Dan Mullen was quoted on the subject), I think the ultimate endgame would be fewer scholarships, not more. If they are going to start paying players serious money, they'll get rid of 25-35 spots on the roster. It will be just like the NFL, because it will be easier to cut a player (since it won't be about scholarships and/or the school's educational mission, but just a minor league team sponsored by a school).

[Bisonoline]

Honestly, while I've seen some discussion of increasing scholarships in the P5 ranks (Dan Mullen was quoted on the subject), I think the ultimate endgame would be fewer scholarships, not more. If they are going to start paying players serious money, they'll get rid of 25-35 spots on the roster. It will be just like the NFL, because it will be easier to cut a player (since it won't be about scholarships and/or the school's educational mission, but just a minor league team sponsored by a school).

They will need to keep up the illusion. You wont see any reductions as they need the bodies for depth and to out recruit the competition.

[DFW HOYA]

Honestly, while I've seen some discussion of increasing scholarships in the P5 ranks (Dan Mullen was quoted on the subject), I think the ultimate endgame would be fewer scholarships, not more. If they are going to start paying players serious money, they'll get rid of 25-35 spots on the roster. It will be just like the NFL, because it will be easier to cut a player (since it won't be about scholarships and/or the school's educational mission, but just a minor league team sponsored by a school).

In that scenario, it won't be "sponsored" by the school. Florida State, USC, Notre Dame, etc. could license their name and liogos to third parties (e.g., "Seminole Football Club LLC") who would manage the team. In exchange, the players would be offered private scholarships (but not required to attend) the college.

[walliver]

I grew up in the 60's watching Wofford play in the NAIA. We routinely played home-and-home against Furman, App State, WCU, and Davidson. At that time, the main difference between the NAIA and NCAA schools in the Carolinas (outside the ACC) was that the NAIA allowed Freshmen to play, and the NCAA required freshman teams.

After the NCAA established scholarship limits and created the I-AA playoffs, the smaller NCAA teams separated themselves from the NAIA schools, and we wouldn't have home-and-home games against FU, ASU, and WCU for twenty years. In that time, however, the games were no less exciting than they were in the 60's or later in the 90's.

If I wanted to see the absolute top athletes play football, I would buy Carolina Panthers tickets.

P5 autonomy is not an issue for most of us. The real issue facing FCS football is potential liability from concussions and other injuries. The "big boys" can afford big payouts, most FCS schools cannot.

[Bogus Megapardus]

In that scenario, it won't be "sponsored" by the school. Florida State, USC, Notre Dame, etc. could license their name and liogos to third parties (e.g., "Seminole Football Club LLC") who would manage the team. In exchange, the players would be offered private scholarships (but not required to attend) the college.

Isn't it still an illusion, though, DFW? At a public university, it's *all* taxpayer money no mater what ruse is applied to try to make it appear not to be so. That includes scholarship grants, stipends, gate receipts and television broadcast income and licensing fees. Not so?

Notre Dame, Duke, Rice, Boston College, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, BYU, etc. would play under different rules, though. The Academies? Hard to say.

[DFW HOYA]

Isn't it still an illusion, though, DFW? At a public university, it's *all* taxpayer money no mater what ruse is applied to try to make it appear not to be so. That includes scholarship grants, stipends, gate receipts and television broadcast income and licensing fees. Not so?



Not entirely so. Some states provide no public funding for athletics.

[Bill]

Bogie
Here's a case in point:
http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2011/10/ohio_states_athletic_departmen.html

The article is a few years old, but the article explains THE Ohio State University's funding....it's all self-sufficient!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In that scenario, it won't be "sponsored" by the school. Florida State, USC, Notre Dame, etc. could license their name and liogos to third parties (e.g., "Seminole Football Club LLC") who would manage the team. In exchange, the players would be offered private scholarships (but not required to attend) the college.

This will make things just like Europe, where they have "Sporting Clubs" like Manchester United or Barcelona. Can "elite training camps" of 12 year olds where education is optional be very far behind?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Not entirely so. Some states provide no public funding for athletics.


Bogie
Here's a case in point:
http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2011/10/ohio_states_athletic_departmen.html

The article is a few years old, but the article explains THE Ohio State University's funding....it's all self-sufficient!


True - New Hampshire is the same way. But the television, gate receipt and donation income nevertheless constitute income to a state entity. I'm not so sure you can parse it out - as hard as many try.

Consider the legal cases about private donations for city parks, libraries, statues and the like. It all becomes public property, equivalent to taxpayer income. I'm just suggesting that, when all the cards are on the table, a few in Columbus and elsewhere might be in for a shock. Only an observation, mind you.

[MplsBison]

because being inclusive is irrelevant. the p5 didn't secretly meet and decide to cut the g5 out, like the seven dwarfs decided to lie about cigarettes... rather they're unabashedly pursuing self-interest, which is leaving the g5 behind. the motive is known, the result is not.

So if I understand your argument correctly, the P5 are pursuring their ultimate objective of splitting away from the G5 .... and they're accomplishing that by giving the G5 a guaranteed spot in one of the CFP bowls every year (a first, in the history of the major college football postseason) and giving the G5 a $80-something million dollar cut of the $500 million CFP media money (their highest cut, in the history of the major college football postseason).


Yeah, that's quite the strategy. xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

I definitely believe there is an element of the P5 putting a fence around their athletic clubs and eventually forcing the "freeloaders" out. I do think the P5 sees FCS as a sort of minor league, not even in the same competitive zone (App St. vs. Michigan and Sac State vs. Oregon State nonwithstanding) irrelevant to the discussion since they're not sharing in the money. The G5, however, was, and now will effectively be shut out of the lucrative CFB playoff money because there's basically no way they can make the four-game playoff.

Except for the fact that the twelve year CFP agreement, which is just starting this season, gives the G5 an automatic cut of money from the media payday (the most they've ever received) and gives them an automatic spot in the bowl games.

Yeah, that little factoid might not quite jive with your sky is falling agenda for the G5. But continue on ...

[MplsBison]

Honestly, while I've seen some discussion of increasing scholarships in the P5 ranks (Dan Mullen was quoted on the subject), I think the ultimate endgame would be fewer scholarships, not more. If they are going to start paying players serious money, they'll get rid of 25-35 spots on the roster. It will be just like the NFL, because it will be easier to cut a player (since it won't be about scholarships and/or the school's educational mission, but just a minor league team sponsored by a school).

Someone who gets it!

Absolutely, schools are already shelling out for 85 scholarships and having to pay millions upon millions for coaching salaries and facility projects just to stay in the P5 game.

The last thing they're going to do is substantially increase their expenses.


I can very much see a day coming when the P5 propose to reduce FBS scholarship limits from 85 to 65. They can keep the number of kids they bring in (including preferred walkons) each year the same and simply emphasize the PWO more.

[MplsBison]

In that scenario, it won't be "sponsored" by the school. Florida State, USC, Notre Dame, etc. could license their name and liogos to third parties (e.g., "Seminole Football Club LLC") who would manage the team. In exchange, the players would be offered private scholarships (but not required to attend) the college.

No, they'll never go that route. That would mean the school wouldn't get as much money.

If it comes to pay-for-play via lawsuits, the presidents will pull the plug and drop everyone to DIII. Then everything will stay the same for them as far as revenue streams, just as many people will come watch the games, it will just be a slightly slower, shorter caliber of player in the uniforms. A better deal for them, actually.

[2ram]

So if I understand your argument correctly, the P5 are pursuring their ultimate objective of splitting away from the G5 .... and they're accomplishing that by giving the G5 a guaranteed spot in one of the CFP bowls every year (a first, in the history of the major college football postseason) and giving the G5 a $80-something million dollar cut of the $500 million CFP media money (their highest cut, in the history of the major college football postseason).


Yeah, that's quite the strategy. xrolleyesx

lol, that reads like you didn't even read my post. that's not it or what i said. what i said was:


because being inclusive is irrelevant. the p5 didn't secretly meet and decide to cut the g5 out, like the seven dwarfs decided to lie about cigarettes... rather they're unabashedly pursuing self-interest, which is leaving the g5 behind. the motive is known, the result is not.


their objective has nothing to do with the g5, and that's the crux of it. if the g5 can hang in they hang in, but i wouldn't expect the p5 to slow down & let g5 schools catch their breath... and for that matter, i don't expect the g5 to keep up anyway.

[AshevilleApp2]

I grew up in the 60's watching Wofford play in the NAIA. We routinely played home-and-home against Furman, App State, WCU, and Davidson. At that time, the main difference between the NAIA and NCAA schools in the Carolinas (outside the ACC) was that the NAIA allowed Freshmen to play, and the NCAA required freshman teams.

After the NCAA established scholarship limits and created the I-AA playoffs, the smaller NCAA teams separated themselves from the NAIA schools, and we wouldn't have home-and-home games against FU, ASU, and WCU for twenty years. In that time, however, the games were no less exciting than they were in the 60's or later in the 90's.

If I wanted to see the absolute top athletes play football, I would buy Carolina Panthers tickets.

P5 autonomy is not an issue for most of us. The real issue facing FCS football is potential liability from concussions and other injuries. The "big boys" can afford big payouts, most FCS schools cannot.

Exactly. Isn't the goal to compete at the level your school chooses? I doubt D-II, D-III and NAIA teams fans approach their playoffs thinking how things would be so much better if they were only FCS.

[RichH2]

True - New Hampshire is the same way. But the television, gate receipt and donation income nevertheless constitute income to a state entity. I'm not so sure you can parse it out - as hard as many try.

Consider the legal cases about private donations for city parks, libraries, statues and the like. It all becomes public property, equivalent to taxpayer income. I'm just suggesting that, when all the cards are on the table, a few in Columbus and elsewhere might be in for a shock. Only an observation, mind you.
An absolute reality. You can call a pig a silk purse,its still a pig.

[MplsBison]

lol, that reads like you didn't even read my post. that's not it or what i said. what i said was:




their objective has nothing to do with the g5, and that's the crux of it. if the g5 can hang in they hang in, but i wouldn't expect the p5 to slow down & let g5 schools catch their breath... and for that matter, i don't expect the g5 to keep up anyway.

It's impossible to "leave the G5 behind" if the G5 is being included in the postseason, especially if they're being included to an increasing degree with each new iteration of the postseason system (as has been the case).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

the G5 is being included in the postseason

Cute that you still believe this.

[MplsBison]

Cute that you still believe this.

The postseason is bowl games, as it has always been. Six of the bowls have increased importance for the next twelve years and the highest rated G5 conference champion gets an automatic spot in one of those six bowl games.

Cute or not, it's fact.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The postseason is bowl games....

xlolx

[MplsBison]

xlolx

That's the fact of the FBS (which was the obvious context of the discussion). Hence the name of the subdivision.

I'm surprised you weren't aware of something so simple.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I think it's cute that some people believe that the agenda of the P5 is somehow to separate themselves from the G5 or the FCS. It's about the bottom line. The P5 isn't going to do anything that will increase football expenditures unless there's a very compelling reason, and trying to increase the separation from the G5 and FCS isn't one of them.

[citdog]

I think it's cute that some people believe that the agenda of the P5 is somehow to separate themselves from the G5 or the FCS. It's about the bottom line. The P5 isn't going to do anything that will increase football expenditures unless there's a very compelling reason, and trying to increase the separation from the G5 and FCS isn't one of them.

I think it's cute that you and your ilk who pretend to be fbs cannot see the handwriting on the wall. I knew the illiteracy problem in South Georgia was bad but I never thought it was THIS bad.

[MplsBison]

I think it's cute that some people believe that the agenda of the P5 is somehow to separate themselves from the G5 or the FCS. It's about the bottom line. The P5 isn't going to do anything that will increase football expenditures unless there's a very compelling reason, and trying to increase the separation from the G5 and FCS isn't one of them.

Well said.

It's hilarious how FCS fans daydream about a split that's never coming and talk about it like there's handwriting on the wall.

[citdog]

Well said.

It's hilarious how FCS fans daydream about a split that's never coming and talk about it like there's handwriting on the wall.

The penis envy is strong in you two.

[2ram]

It's impossible to "leave the G5 behind" if the G5 is being included in the postseason, especially if they're being included to an increasing degree with each new iteration of the postseason system (as has been the case).

a team from the group of 5 (now being referenced as the 'mid-major' conferences... ugh) is guaranteed a spot in one of the six bowls. wow... soooo inclusive.

you're right, it's utterly impossible for that system to push the subject conferences apart. i'm sure that would be impossible. a more likely scenario is the g5 merging with the p5 to form voltron.

[MplsBison]

The penis envy is strong in you two.

I don't need envy, I'm a fan of the best FCS team in the nation and simultaneously a fan of an upcoming B1G contender. I'm all set, as far as college football goes.

[MplsBison]

a team from the group of 5 (now being referenced is 'mid-majors') is guaranteed a spot in one of the six bowls. wow... soooo inclusive.

you're right, it's utterly impossible for that system to push the subject conferences apart. i'm sure that would be impossible. a more likely scenario is the g5 merging with the p5 and forming voltron.

It is very inclusive, and more importantly the trend is for increasing amounts of inclusion.

The G5 and the P5 have been merged for quite some time. It's called "FBS" and was formerly known as "DI-A".

[2ram]

It is very inclusive, and more importantly the trend is for increasing amounts of inclusion.

The G5 and the P5 have been merged for quite some time. It's called "FBS" and was formerly known as "DI-A".

and now separated as p5 and g5, with a minor inclusion on nyd for the latter. have you seen the news lately?

[RichH2]

2ram, Mpls hard to argue with. He often makes astute observations. He is ,however, an ideologue,capable of logical arguments. His problem is his premises and the ability to ignore facts that disagree with them.

[geaux_sioux]

The problem with adding scholarships to the big boys is they still only allow 11 players on the field at a time. That's going to equal a lot of scholarshiped guys who never see the field at a P5 school who otherwise may have been a star at a smaller school and had a chance at the NFL. Although this could also create a huge influx of failed FBS players transferring down to FCS schools.

[Bisonoline]

The problem with adding scholarships to the big boys is they still only allow 11 players on the field at a time. That's going to equal a lot of scholarshiped guys who never see the field at a P5 school who otherwise may have been a star at a smaller school and had a chance at the NFL. Although this could also create a huge influx of failed FBS players transferring down to FCS schools.

Even with their money they arent going to add to their dept load if they dont have to. I dont think you will see any great difference in scholarship levels. 10 really isnt that much and I certainly dont see it going over that even if there is an increase.

[geaux_sioux]

Even with their money they arent going to add to their dept load if they dont have to. I dont think you will see any great difference in scholarship levels. 10 really isnt that much and I certainly dont see it going over that even if there is an increase.
But if they all add 10 scholarships that's a ton of talented upper level FCS recruits that will be wasted.

[Bisonoline]

But if they all add 10 scholarships that's a ton of talented upper level FCS recruits that will be wasted.

Not really. Many many recruits cant step up to the next level talent wise. They dont develop. They lose the passion. They cant hack the academics. They get hurt. Some get home sick etc etc etc. The road is littered with those that couldnt make it. Those that want playing time will move down a level. It all evens out in the wash.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The problem with adding scholarships to the big boys is they still only allow 11 players on the field at a time. That's going to equal a lot of scholarshiped guys who never see the field at a P5 school who otherwise may have been a star at a smaller school and had a chance at the NFL. Although this could also create a huge influx of failed FBS players transferring down to FCS schools.

Now, however, if they do this they might see it as the loss of thousands of $ in benefits.

[2ram]

Now, however, if they do this they might see it as the loss of thousands of $ in benefits.

yes, the golden handcuff phenomena.

[MplsBison]

and now separated as p5 and g5, with a minor inclusion on nyd for the latter. have you seen the news lately?

P5 and G5 is a media distinction, not an official separation. Officially, there is still only DIII, DII, FCS and FBS, as far as the NCAA goes.

The previous postseason system (BCS) gave six conference champions automatic spots in the four (later five) BCS bowls, with the Big East (AAC last season) being considered the weak link and undeserving after Miami, VT and BC split.

So in the current postseason system (CFP), instead of just giving the AAC an automatic spot in the six CFP bowls, they decided to take the highest rated conference champion from the remaining five conferences. That gives the MWC, MAC, CUSA and SBC champion a chance to earn that stop instead of just giving it to the AAC every year.

That's why the G5 (group of five) and P5 (power five) nomenclature came into use, to explain the structure.

Then it was further used by the media in reporting on the new autonomy voting group, which was limited to the P5.


So there, now you've been schooled on the history of P5 and G5.


And yes, the G5 have been significantly included in the CFP postseason system.

[MplsBison]

Now, however, if they do this they might see it as the loss of thousands of $ in benefits.

It comes down to the simple question: do you want to play football, or just be on a football team? Hence why there have always been FBS transfers and always will be. It's worth it to some kids to play, rather than just be on the team.

They could still receive FCOA valued scholarships at the FCS school. And we don't know yet if P5 schools are going to offer any NIL money to players. They can decide not to, if they want. They just can't collude in doing it.

Another possibility: they may decide to offer zero NIL money to players that aren't on the two deep or perhaps starters (or maybe an even smaller group). There won't be any rules about which players money must be offered to, only the cap on how much they can offer. So in that case, the transfer may well never have gotten any NIL money if he stayed anyway.