NCAA Redesign Could Prove Costly To Conferences Like Patriot League

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/823-ncaa-redesign-could-prove-costly-to-conferences-like-patriot-league


There are a lot of microphones, as well as media members, at the media days of the Big Ten, Big XII, Pac 12, SEC, and ACC.
Judging by that alone, you might get the impression that the only voices that matter in regards to new governance changes in the NCAA are the commissioners and athletic directory of the so-called "Power Five".

At Patriot League media day in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, the theme, as articulated by Patriot League executive director Carolyn Schlie Femovich, seemed to be about the league experiencing a challenging, expensive renovation of the NCAA structure surrounding their college athletics.

"It seems certain," Femovich said in her opening remarks, "that we are going to enter into a redesigned governance structure that will give the five major BCS conferences some autonomy in making decisions in key areas about how they use their resources, how they support their student-athletes, and how they manage their programs."

"The fallout or effect of that is difficult to say," she continued, "but I think for the Patriot League it's not going to change much how we do business. Whatever we do philosophically will not change, but I think the external world will challenge us in a lot of different ways."

Pretty interesting conversation I had with Carolyn Femovich, the executive director of the Patriot League, at media day yesterday.

[citdog]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/823-ncaa-redesign-could-prove-costly-to-conferences-like-patriot-league



Carolyn Femovich.[/FONT][/FONT]


http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/3/4/0/1/9/6/t5518881-86-thumb-dodgeball-bitch.jpg?d=1360349749

[2ram]

i didn't know femovich was a citadel cadet... huh!

[RichH2]

2ram,very astute. Citadel known for their gender equality and ambiguity :)

[citdog]

2ram,very astute. Citadel known for their gender equality and ambiguity :)

ambiguity you say? must be a Charleston thing.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsGRNMLR3rg

[SactoHornetFan]

One thing wrong about your article. You do realize the Federal academies provide the entire cost of education to every cadet and midshipman at Army, Navy, Air Force and even the Coast Guard academy, regardless if they are on an intercollegiate team.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One thing wrong about your article. You do realize the Federal academies provide the entire cost of education to every cadet and midshipman at Army, Navy, Air Force and even the Coast Guard academy, regardless if they are on an intercollegiate team.

I do, yet that does not include the entire "full cost of attendance" as defined by the P5 and told me by the PL commish. I believe almost all of the same things are covered, but not all.

To be clear, tuition, room and board and books cost nothing monetarily to all USMA and USNA students, in exchange for a service commitment after graduation.

Anything additional that athletes would need to be granted above and beyond the regular amounts of $ would need to be appropriated and passed by Congress. Additionally, anything the football teams would get, similar appropriations would be needed for women's sports, thanks to Title IX.

[citdog]

I do, yet that does not include the entire "full cost of attendance" as defined by the P5 and told me by the PL commish. I believe almost all of the same things are covered, but not all.

To be clear, tuition, room and board and books cost nothing monetarily to all USMA and USNA students, in exchange for a service commitment after graduation.

Anything additional that athletes would need to be granted above and beyond the regular amounts of $ would need to be appropriated and passed by Congress. Additionally, anything the football teams would get, similar appropriations would be needed for women's sports, thanks to Title IX.

Cadets at hudson high, canoe u, and the colorado springs school of golf instruction receive 1/2 the pay of a 2nd Lt or Lt JG while enrolled.

[SactoHornetFan]

Cadets at hudson high, canoe u, and the colorado springs school of golf instruction receive 1/2 the pay of a 2nd Lt or Lt JG while enrolled.

Exactly. Everyone of them is paid a monthly salary technically. That's full cost IMO.

[Sader87]

My take, Holy Cross will ultimately leave the PL, except for football.

[IBleedYellow]

As an Air Force guy, "Colorado Springs School of Golf" made me spit out my coffee. Damnit, Citdog.

[Green26]

I don't mean to downplay or ignore the impact of continuing changes in NCAA sports, including this proposal to change governance for the Big 5 and allow them to do things they want to do. Obviously, college sports continues to change, realign and evolve in significant ways. However, I don't understand all of the concern and hang-wringing, and occasional predictions of disaster for FCS or other conferences. And I didn't think the woman quoted in the Burton article seemed overly concerned.

I would ask, who cares what the Big 5 does, at least from an FCS point of view? I can understand some of the financial and competitive concerns of the non-Big 5 FBS schools.

I know that every top recruit doesn't go to a top school or Big 5 school, but don't most recruits already go to a top school, or Big 5 school, if they get a chance and think they can play at that school? So what if a few more top recruits decide to go to a Big 5 school where they can be paid a bit more money and have some better conditions. I can't imagine that FCS, at least in football, would lose many recruits to the Big 5 schools. FCS recruits rarely have that choice of schools. I suppose more non-Big 5 recruits have that choice, but I wonder how many.

Is the extra money all that important to alot of recruits' school choice? Will more kids go to USC or Wash St, than to Nevada or Boise St? Will they even have that choice? If they have that choice now, don't almost all of them go to the Pac-12, and certainly to USC?

And at the end of the day, who cares if more of the talent goes to the Big 5? They already get better talent. There is lots of talent out there. The non-Big 5, as well as FCS, will still be very competitive and fun to watch and follow, especially against comparable schools.

I can understand how there may be pressures on non-Big 5 schools in FBS to try to increase benefits. I can understand how a conference would be impacted if some of their schools, if allowed by the conference, increased benefits and others didn't. I don't see the pressure on FCS schools to significantly change things that will cost alot of money. They should just say no.

I suppose the competitive balance could change a bit more in sports other than football, as the football powers and basketball powers don't quite align with each other by conference. But again, will recruits factor some additional financing and benefits into the equation over the program, the coaches, the existing players, the school location/atmosphere, etc.

There are only so many scholarships available at Big 5 schools. Getting those scholarships is already very competitive. I just don't see the additional funds/benefits impacting recruiting that much. Again, the top recruits already generally go to the top schools.

Conferences like the Ivy, Patriot leagues, etc. already operate in a non- or low-scholarship basis. They offer a different product and do just fine. In fact, I prefer the models of the Ivy and Patriot leagues, as well as D-III. More amateur; more like college sports once were and, in my view, ought to be.

If the Big 5 decided to have offer more scholarships for various sports, that would, of course, have an impact on competitive balance, as more of the top athletes would go to the Big 5. However, at some point, doesn't a recruit want to get onto the field. As a top recruit, why would you go to Alabama if they had 100 scholarships and never get on the field?

I supposed added benefits of the Big 5 might have some impact on walk-ons, but they wouldn't get the additional stipend, I assume, and I'm not so sure how many more walk-ons would go to the Big 5 for the added benefits (as opposed to stipend).

Another question. Why does everyone seem to assume that added stipends/benefits for say football would cause those colleges to have to provide them for women's sports? I understand the basics of Title IX, but I wonder if that assumption is a given. Maybe it is.

I think the possible ruling that scholarship athletes are employees could have a bigger impact than the current NCAA governance proposal.

As for the narrow Patriot league concern with a school like Army in a difference football conference, why wouldn't they just let the other school do what it wants in the other sport that is not in the Patriot league. Sure, there would be some issues to be dealt with, but those would be doable.

I'm sure I missed the point on various things, but thought I would provide some views, and learn something from the rest of you if a discussion develops.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't mean to downplay or ignore the impact of continuing changes in NCAA sports, including this proposal to change governance for the Big 5 and allow them to do things they want to do. Obviously, college sports continues to change, realign and evolve in significant ways. However, I don't understand all of the concern and hang-wringing, and occasional predictions of disaster for FCS or other conferences. And I didn't think the woman quoted in the Burton article seemed overly concerned.

I would ask, who cares what the Big 5 does, at least from an FCS point of view? I can understand some of the financial and competitive concerns of the non-Big 5 FBS schools.

Conferences like the Ivy, Patriot leagues, etc. already operate in a non- or low-scholarship basis. They offer a different product and do just fine. In fact, I prefer the models of the Ivy and Patriot leagues, as well as D-III. More amateur; more like college sports once were and, in my view, ought to be.

Another question. Why does everyone seem to assume that added stipends/benefits for say football would cause those colleges to have to provide them for women's sports? I understand the basics of Title IX, but I wonder if that assumption is a given. Maybe it is.

I know this is a debate among sports journalists as to whether Title IX will apply with FCOA, but Ms. Femovich never said "if" when she and I talked about Title IX matching for full cost of attendance. I am fairly certain in her mind that Title IX will absolutely apply if it passes, and it also tails into the "pressures" of FCOA across all sports if it passes.

This is critical in regards to all sports. Football, men's hoops get FCOA; Title IX dictates that women's hoops and, say, women's lacrosse and women's softball gets FCOA. That causes unbalance with these three sports; other conferences feel they will need to add FCOA to their scholarship packages just to remain competitive. That's a very possible scenario.

It's not so much FCOA's impacts in regards to football alone - it's more how it cascades into other sports and unbalances them and makes college athletics unaffordable overall. A few extra grand for FBS schollies? Impacts, but not too many. A few extra grand for women's lacrosse, where partial scholarships are the norm? Huge unbalancing game-changer.


I think the possible ruling that scholarship athletes are employees could have a bigger impact than the current NCAA governance proposal.

As for the narrow Patriot league concern with a school like Army in a difference football conference, why wouldn't they just let the other school do what it wants in the other sport that is not in the Patriot league. Sure, there would be some issues to be dealt with, but those would be doable.

I'm sure I missed the point on various things, but thought I would provide some views, and learn something from the rest of you if a discussion develops.

For the Patriot League, it's the Title IX thing again. Army decides to implement FCOA scholarships, it affects women's sports, which then causes FCOA to need to be implemented with the rest of the league. And FCOA in places like Mass, NY, Pennsylvania, Maryland are going to be very large amounts on top of some of the highest tuitions in the country.

[RichH2]

Many seem oblivious to the impact of FCOA across sports and divisions. The sheer agony of unintended consequences.

[Pard4Life]

My take, Holy Cross will ultimately leave the PL, except for football.

We've discussed this before Sader... the Big East opportunity was gone long ago...

[DFW HOYA]

Conferences like the Ivy, Patriot leagues, etc. already operate in a non- or low-scholarship basis. They offer a different product and do just fine. In fact, I prefer the models of the Ivy and Patriot leagues, as well as D-III. More amateur; more like college sports once were and, in my view, ought to be.

The Patriot needs to be decoupled from this line of reasoning. Tomorrow's full-scholarship PL will look more like the CAA than the Ivy.

At this point there are only ten non-scholarship programs left in the East: the Ivies, Georgetown, and Marist, a somewhat unsettled place for the two schools that aren't in the Ivy clubhouse.

[MplsBison]

The Patriot needs to be decoupled from this line of reasoning. Tomorrow's full-scholarship PL will look more like the CAA than the Ivy.

At this point there are only ten non-scholarship programs left in the East: the Ivies, Georgetown, and Marist, a somewhat unsettled place for the two schools that aren't in the Ivy clubhouse.

Georgetown may not give "scholarships" in the colloquial sense, but they provide more than zero equivalencies according to the NCAA (just like all the Patriot schools did before the new rules).

So that elevates them above true zero equivalency schools like the Ivies and PFL.

[RichH2]

Mpls,
Cant equate Ivy aid at zero eauivalencies. That is fantasy enabled by HYP and P aid policies for all students.

[Gater]

Most Ivies are free if your parents make less than $60,000 a year. Harvard costs $18,000 if they make $180,000 (10% of income from $60,000 to $180,000). That's a pretty good way to have a lot of pretty good athletes.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/college-planning/admissions/ivy-league-admissions5.htm

[Bisonoline]

Many seem oblivious to the impact of FCOA across sports and divisions. The sheer agony of unintended consequences.

FCOA????????????????????????

[RichH2]

Full cost of attendance

[Lehigh'98]

Is that acronym common knowledge? Maybe I'm just dumb, or both!!

[clenz]

Is that acronym common knowledge? Maybe I'm just dumb, or both!!
Never seen it before in my life

[RichH2]

:):) You guys need to read more blogs. Its become shorthand for the issue. One of the perks of being retired .

[Lehigh Football Nation]

:):) You guys need to read more blogs. Its become shorthand for the issue. One of the perks of being retired .

I wholeheartedly endorse people reading more blogs.

[Green26]

Thanks for the info. However, I still don't understand why the Patriot league would feel the need or pressure to adopt FCOA. Where is the pressure going to come from? If only the Big 5 or only the Big 5 and some other FBS conferences adopt FCOA, what athletes would the Patriot league lose?

As for Army, several thought/questions. Since army already pays for everything for all cadets, is army really going to pay something extra to athletes, or is army going to pay something extra to all cadets? Even if army does, why not just let army do what it wants to do? I can't imagine that that would give army any significant advantage that it doesn't have already.

[Green26]

Many seem oblivious to the impact of FCOA across sports and divisions. The sheer agony of unintended consequences.

Again, why would FCS schools, and even FBS schools who can't afford it, adopt FCOA? If FCS schools don't adopt any FCOA, so what? Where would else would any of its recruits go?

[Green26]

The Patriot needs to be decoupled from this line of reasoning. Tomorrow's full-scholarship PL will look more like the CAA than the Ivy.

At this point there are only ten non-scholarship programs left in the East: the Ivies, Georgetown, and Marist, a somewhat unsettled place for the two schools that aren't in the Ivy clubhouse.

Okay, let me put it this way? Why would any FCS conference adopt FCOA?

[citdog]

Thanks for the info. However, I still don't understand why the Patriot league would feel the need or pressure to adopt FCOA. Where is the pressure going to come from? If only the Big 5 or only the Big 5 and some other FBS conferences adopt FCOA, what athletes would the Patriot league lose?

As for Army, several thought/questions. Since army already pays for everything for all cadets, is army really going to pay something extra to athletes, or is army going to pay something extra to all cadets? Even if army does, why not just let army do what it wants to do? I can't imagine that that would give army any significant advantage that it doesn't have already.


As I mentioned a couple of pages ago EVERY Cadet at the federal academies receives one half of a 2nd Lt's salary every month. They are already getting the FCOA.

[SUPharmacist]

I vote for minor league football. It will never happen for too many reasons to count, but I think it would make the most sense for some of these top recruits who are not currently interested in the education side of college. The players who value the education could still go just like college baseball.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Okay, let me put it this way? Why would any FCS conference adopt FCOA?

Because Villanova wants to win an NCAA men's basketball championship.

[centennial]

Because Villanova wants to win an NCAA men's basketball championship.
So any basketball team that wants to do that has to do it to other sports as well?

[RichH2]

Question is does Title IX apply. My guess is it does. So FCOA for football then an appropriate # of women. So school gives to soccer,WBball,lax and golf. OK,then school has to extend to the male teams in those sports. So where do the dominoes stop falling?

[DFW HOYA]

So where do the dominoes stop falling?

Full cost of attendance for all athletic scholarships.

[RichH2]

More appropriate for FCS, partial schollies?

[DFW HOYA]

More appropriate for FCS, partial schollies?

Easy to say, but how many AD's/presidents are going to say no when it is available?

Fordham unilaterally told the PL it was going to 60 scholarships and (almost) everybody got in line. When Fordham says it will then offer full cost of attendance, is Bucknell or Lafayette really going to stand up and say "Not for us!"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Easy to say, but how many AD's/presidents are going to say no when it is available?

Fordham unilaterally told the PL it was going to 60 scholarships and (almost) everybody got in line. When Fordham says it will then offer full cost of attendance, is Bucknell or Lafayette really going to stand up and say "Not for us!"

Bucknell had 771 athletics participants in 2013, per the EADA reports. $3000 X 771 = $2.3 million extra dollars of athletics spending. Annually. Just to stay put.

And that's assuming that Bucknell's cost of living only gets up to $3,000 to cover books and incidentals. It could easily be much more.

Fordham's FCOA allowance? In NYC? Double that number easily.

[DFW HOYA]

Bucknell had 771 athletics participants in 2013, per the EADA reports. $3000 X 771 = $2.3 million extra dollars of athletics spending. Annually. Just to stay put.

Not all 771 receive a scholarship but the point is taken. Of course, Bucknell doesn't have to offer any extra dollars.

[clenz]

Not all 771 receive a scholarship but the point is taken. Of course, Bucknell doesn't have to offer any extra dollars.
Bucknell offers the follow men sports - scholarships in ()
baseball (11.7)
basketball (13)
track/xc (12.6)
football (63)
golf (4.5)
lacrosse (12.6)
soccer (9.9)
swimming and diving (9.9)
tennis (4.5)
water polo (4.5)
wrestling (9.9)

That is 156.1 scholarships at Bucknell's FCOA (60,140 per http://www.bucknell.edu/admissions/tuition-and-financial-aid.html) and you get 9,387,854 for the athletic department to cover.

You know that will also extend to women's sports...so...

basketball 15
xc/track 18
field hockey 12
golf 6
lacrosse 12
rowing 20
soccer 14
softball 12
swimming and diving 14
tennis 8
volleyball 12
water polo 8

That's 151 women's scholarships at a FCOA of 60,140 and a total of $9,081,140 for womens sports.


You are now at a total of 18,468,994 in just FCOA scholarships for Bucknell to cover just to maintain....OR... 10,869,780 MORE than they are currently giving.

Once you start this you can't stop at just football and or mens basketball. All sports are going to become a FCOA sport, and eventually you won't be able to only give a small amount of your scholarships away, you'll be forced to give them all out.

Do you think Bucknell can/will do that? Take football out of the equation and you instantly cut 400K in just student aid out of that budget - plus all other football expenses.

[DFW HOYA]

Once you start this you can't stop at just football and or mens basketball. All sports are going to become a FCOA sport, and eventually you won't be able to only give a small amount of your scholarships away, you'll be forced to give them all out.


On what basis?

If Georgetown chose to give out cost of attendance allowances for men's and women's basketball, there's nothing that would compel them offering it in any other sports (including football). In the end, it's a matter of institutional discipline, not some sort of conference rule.

[clenz]

On what basis?

If Georgetown chose to give out cost of attendance allowances for men's and women's basketball, there's nothing that would compel them offering it in any other sports (including football). In the end, it's a matter of institutional discipline, not some sort of conference rule.
You would like to think so...

But...

The slope...she is slippery.

[RichH2]

Agree DFW ,fine for GU but wont work for the rest of us with football schollies. To balance 60 we have to cover multiple W sports which in turn brings in their M equivalents.
Have to check with 137, but believe most of Bucknell athletic aid is need based. He probably knows exact breakdown.

[DFW HOYA]

Agree DFW ,fine for GU but wont work for the rest of us with football schollies. To balance 60 we have to cover multiple W sports which in turn brings in their M equivalents.

If Georgetown had 60 scholarships tomorrow, they still wouldn't have to offer cost of attendance options if they showed the discipline not to. Why can't Lafayette or Bucknell say they just won't offer it?

(Answer: Well, if Fordham does, then so will we.)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If Georgetown had 60 scholarships tomorrow, they still wouldn't have to offer cost of attendance options if they showed the discipline not to. Why can't Lafayette or Bucknell say they just won't offer it?

They could. However, they would very likely be recruiting against schools that do, and perhaps against schools in their own league that do, if the league allows for the potential for FCOA on a school-by-school basis.

The answer would then depend on how important it is for that school to compete for league championships or FCS championships. If it's not really important, then the school can choose to not fully fund their scholarships, a situation in the Patriot League where there is historic (and current) precedent.

Something to consider as well is how FCOA affects the Ivy League. Would they oppose it on principle? Or would they change their aid structure to allow something that looks and smells like FCOA? Certainly Harvard, Yale, and Princeton could make it happen at the stroke of a pen.

[RichH2]

Given the budget constraints at some PL schools how likely is FCOA here? PL has severe limits on schollies now due to those issues. Doubt they'll vote to add thousands more.

[Green26]

Because Villanova wants to win an NCAA men's basketball championship.

Isn't Villanova in the Big East conference for basketball? If the Big East allows FCOA, why wouldn't Villanova adopt it for basketball? And who would care or be disadvantaged? FCOA for men's and women's basketball. Not a big deal.

[Green26]

They could. However, they would very likely be recruiting against schools that do, and perhaps against schools in their own league that do, if the league allows for the potential for FCOA on a school-by-school basis.

The answer would then depend on how important it is for that school to compete for league championships or FCS championships. If it's not really important, then the school can choose to not fully fund their scholarships, a situation in the Patriot League where there is historic (and current) precedent.

Something to consider as well is how FCOA affects the Ivy League. Would they oppose it on principle? Or would they change their aid structure to allow something that looks and smells like FCOA? Certainly Harvard, Yale, and Princeton could make it happen at the stroke of a pen.

I think the Ivy league would oppose on principle. The Ivies are already disadvantaged by not having athletic scholarships. Sure, good need-based financial aid, with some minor fudging, at most Ivies, but lots of athletes come from families that made too much to get full or much need-based scholarships. The Ivies lose many kids who want or need the athletic scholarship, but obviously get alot of recruits whose families find a way to scrap together the funds to supplement the partial financial aid. My nephew played in the Ivies recently, and my brother had to work hard to put together the money for some big checks every year. It was well worth it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the Ivy league would oppose on principle. The Ivies are already disadvantaged by not having athletic scholarships. Sure, good need-based financial aid, with some minor fudging, at most Ivies, but lots of athletes come from families that made too much to get full or much need-based scholarships. The Ivies lose many kids who want or need the athletic scholarship, but obviously get alot of recruits whose families find a way to scrap together the funds to supplement the partial financial aid. My nephew played in the Ivies recently, and my brother had to work hard to put together the money for some big checks every year. It was well worth it.

I agree that it's worth it, but you yourself admit they "lose many kids who want or need the athletic scholarship." How many more will the Ivy League lose if Northwestern is offering FCOA scholarships and the Ivies don't? Would a non-FCOA scholarship still be considered a true "scholarship?"

The IL will certainly face pressure to offer something that looks like FCOA, especially because they consider schools like Northwestern and Stanford peer institutions.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Isn't Villanova in the Big East conference for basketball? If the Big East allows FCOA, why wouldn't Villanova adopt it for basketball? And who would care or be disadvantaged? FCOA for men's and women's basketball. Not a big deal.

Would Andy Talley stand around and let Jay Wright be able to offer some super-duper scholarship package that he cannot offer himself? What if that wasn't just basketball, but all sports, like field hockey and track?

[Green26]

I agree that it's worth it, but you yourself admit they "lose many kids who want or need the athletic scholarship." How many more will the Ivy League lose if Northwestern is offering FCOA scholarships and the Ivies don't? Would a non-FCOA scholarship still be considered a true "scholarship?"

The IL will certainly face pressure to offer something that looks like FCOA, especially because they consider schools like Northwestern and Stanford peer institutions.

I don't see the Ivies doing FCOA, certainly not for football, and don't believe not having FCOA would have any significant impact on the ivies, or at least football. I suppose it could be more important for certain other sports that are more in competition for athletes from scholarship schools. Personally, I think anyone who would turn down an Ivy education for an extra several thousand dollars per year is too dumb to attend an Ivy. (That's a joke.) The results of an Ivy education (as well as an education from other good schools) is very valuable in various respects, including financially.

[RichH2]

Agree Green. Ivies lose a few every year to schollie schools,dont see FCOA changing that in any substantial manner.