Big South's New Non-Div I Scheduling Rule

[TexasTerror]

While we spend so much time bickering about FBS scheduling as it relates to power 5 conference foes, FCS opponents, etc... here's one FCS league that is looking at changing one way they go about business. Good move, if you ask me!

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Beginning in 2016, @BigSouthSports (https://twitter.com/BigSouthSports/) football teams will be limited to one non-Division I game during an 11-game schedule limitation.

Craig Haley (https://twitter.com/CraigHaley/status/474573872650813440)

[knucklehead]

At the recent meetings, the Big South made 2 rule changes for Football. 1 deals with Targeting reviews and 1 with DII Scheduling.


Football
• Big South football members will provide video of first half targeting fouls within the first five minutes of halftime for the officials to review, with the specifics of the procedures forthcoming.
• Beginning with the 2016 football season, teams will be limited to a maximum of one (1) non-Division I game during seasons with an 11-game schedule limitation.

http://www.bigsouthsports.com/entries/2014-big-south-spring-meetings-recap-strategic-planning-ncaa-governance-highlight-discussions

[813Jag]

While we spend so much time bickering about FBS scheduling as it relates to power 5 conference foes, FCS opponents, etc... here's one FCS league that is looking at changing one way they go about business. Good move, if you ask me!

---
Beginning in 2016, @BigSouthSports (https://twitter.com/BigSouthSports/) football teams will be limited to one non-Division I game during an 11-game schedule limitation.

Craig Haley (https://twitter.com/CraigHaley/status/474573872650813440)
I think that's a great move one non Division I game should be everyone's max.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I think that's a great move one non Division I game should be everyone's max.

and only when no other options exist.

[knucklehead]

Hey, I posted that first, lol. But yes, very good move.

[MplsBison]

Seems like a very reasonable idea to enact rules preventing games from being scheduled across (sub-)divisions.

[813Jag]

and only when no other options exist.
totally agree.

[TexasTerror]

I think that's a great move one non Division I game should be everyone's max.

I wish one FBS game would be everyone's max as well. Its unfortunate that multiple schools are playing two and we've seen one or two (i.e. Nicholls) play three in recent years. That's a bit much in my opinion, though I understand why they are doing it ($$$).

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I wish one FBS game would be everyone's max as well. Its unfortunate that multiple schools are playing two and we've seen one or two (i.e. Nicholls) play three in recent years. That's a bit much in my opinion, though I understand why they are doing it ($$$).

Hey, if I knew I wasn't a playoff contender and I could make some cash, not a terrible idea.

[BisonFan02]

If I was in the SWAC, I would schedule 100% of my OOC as FBS money games and take the paycheck when available.

[PAllen]

and only when no other options exist.

Exactly

[813Jag]

If I was in the SWAC, I would schedule 100% of my OOC as FBS money games and take the paycheck when available.
I hate that approach in basketball and I would really hate that in football. If you can draw at home why would you deny your fans a chance to see you play? Unless you get lucky to get a Georgia (like Southern had for 2015) you're not gonna get some huge payday.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk

[walliver]

Keep in mind that many schedules with more than 1 non-D1 games scheduled were due to last minute changes and substitutions.

[PAllen]

Keep in mind that many schedules with more than 1 non-D1 games scheduled were due to last minute changes and substitutions.

I disagree. For the most part, schools that end up with a second sub D-I opponent are ones that already had one on the schedule when somebody backed out. With the exception of some of the HBCU rivalries, I'm not a fan of regularly scheduling sub D-I opponents. Limiting it to one would simply make such scheduling more of a risk.

[dewey]

Good move by the Big South. Like others have said there should be some language saying that a second is allowed for teams that buy there way out of a contract and no other options are available.

Dewey

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Observations:

1) Like FBS, this means guarantees paid for fellow FCS opponents will get more expensive, and thus drag the guarantees higher for the D-II teams. Home games all over FCS will become more expensive to buy.

2) Unlike FBS, the motivation is not financial - it's more about perceived conference "schedule strength" for playoff time. The cult of having a "strong schedule" is alive and well at the FCS level - and a mistake to try to schedule towards it.

3) There are two methods already in place to discourage teams from scheduling sub-D-I schools: the unofficial 7 D-I win requirement, and the playoff committee, who (IMO) have punished bubble teams with non-scholarship and/or sub-D-I on the schedule in recent years. Why does the Big South feel compelled to go this extra step? Why not just let their members decide what's good for their schools?

[TexasTerror]

I disagree. For the most part, schools that end up with a second sub D-I opponent are ones that already had one on the schedule when somebody backed out. With the exception of some of the HBCU rivalries, I'm not a fan of regularly scheduling sub D-I opponents. Limiting it to one would simply make such scheduling more of a risk.

SHSU got stuck with St. Joseph's (IN) a few years back when Prairie View A&M posted their schedule in March (or April) without including Sam Houston State. The Panthers' broke the contract without notice to SHSU, not a phone call or e-mail. So, schools can get stuck with non-Div I games due to last minute changes or in the case of Prairie View, very piss poor communication.

[clenz]

SHSU got stuck with St. Joseph's (IN) a few years back when Prairie View A&M posted their schedule in March (or April) without including Sam Houston State. The Panthers' broke the contract without notice to SHSU, not a phone call or e-mail. So, schools can get stuck with non-Div I games due to last minute changes or in the case of Prairie View, very piss poor communication.
Savannah State did the same exact thing to UNI in 2011 in March or April

Got stuck with a D2 team that we went up 59-0 in the second quarter after pulling the starters REAL early in the second.

We paid that D2 (from Ohio) less than 50 K to bus to 12 hours to Cedar Falls. They had to have 2 bus drivers because of driving laws.

[dewey]

Savannah State did the same exact thing to UNI in 2011 in March or April

Got stuck with a D2 team that we went up 59-0 in the second quarter after pulling the starters REAL early in the second.

We paid that D2 (from Ohio) less than 50 K to bus to 12 hours to Cedar Falls. They had to have 2 bus drivers because of driving laws.

Same thing happened to NDSU with Montana State. NDSU ended up scheduling Ferris State pretty late and it ended up being a pretty good beating. I would hope that the AD's that do home and home contracts start increasing the buyouts for contracts so this doesn't keep happening.

Dewey

[smallcollegefbfan]

While we spend so much time bickering about FBS scheduling as it relates to power 5 conference foes, FCS opponents, etc... here's one FCS league that is looking at changing one way they go about business. Good move, if you ask me!

---
Beginning in 2016, @BigSouthSports (https://twitter.com/BigSouthSports/) football teams will be limited to one non-Division I game during an 11-game schedule limitation.

Craig Haley (https://twitter.com/CraigHaley/status/474573872650813440)


Good move. I have always thought that a BCS school has no reason for scheduling a FCS school and playoff auto bid conferences should not be schedule multiple D2 teams, and in fact probably should stick to a non scholarship FCS program over a D2 program. Nothing is gained from scheduling a full division below you. You don't see many power D2 teams scheduling D3 opponents. They often schedule other D2 and then someone from FCS.

[hebmskebm]

I know Monmouth and Kennesaw are being added, but this is a league in dire need of more schools to stabilize the football conference.

[zilla]

Maybe one of these days, Campbell will go full scholly. I also wish Jacksonville would do the same & get a Big South invite.

I saw where BSC football affiliate Kennesaw State made the Super Regionals in baseball. Does anyone know if KSU was offered an all-sports invite by the Big South?

[Libertine]

Observations:

1) Like FBS, this means guarantees paid for fellow FCS opponents will get more expensive, and thus drag the guarantees higher for the D-II teams. Home games all over FCS will become more expensive to buy.

Yes, it will probably make FCS guarantees more expensive. However, this will, in turn, encourage more home-and-home arrangements which is probably better for FCS as a whole.



2) Unlike FBS, the motivation is not financial - it's more about perceived conference "schedule strength" for playoff time. The cult of having a "strong schedule" is alive and well at the FCS level - and a mistake to try to schedule towards it.

3) There are two methods already in place to discourage teams from scheduling sub-D-I schools: the unofficial 7 D-I win requirement, and the playoff committee, who (IMO) have punished bubble teams with non-scholarship and/or sub-D-I on the schedule in recent years.

I suppose you didn't notice that Point 3 directly contradicts and invalidates Point 2 so I'll tell you: Point 3 directly contradicts and invalidates Point 2. This is good because Point 2 is utter bullcrap. There are many many many many examples of good teams missing out on the playoffs because of a weak schedule. Lehigh in 2012 and Liberty in 2008 are great examples. Just this past year, Charleston Southern went 10-3 against a joke of a schedule and were left at home without even a discussion.



Why does the Big South feel compelled to go this extra step? Why not just let their members decide what's good for their schools?

Two reasons: first, I think it's a good rule but, as usual, the Big South is kowtowing to whatever Coastal Carolina wants. Coastal publicly states that they want to play only FCS schools? Boom! The Big South makes a rule about scheduling for the first time in its decade plus of existence. This doesn't make it a bad rule but it's annoying that this is the Big South's idea of what constitutes leadership. Secondly, simply put, the Big South is doing it because the members haven't. Left to themselves, Presbyterian and Charleston Southern would schedule multiple D2's and NAIA's just to pad the dates between playing the conference schedule and their second -- or third -- ACC or SEC school. They are not the only ones to have played multiple sub-D1's but they're the ones who have a pattern of it and, worse, they're the ones who periodically lose to those sub-D1's. This drags the rest of the conference down in every respect.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think it's a good rule but, as usual, the Big South is kowtowing to whatever Coastal Carolina wants. Coastal publicly states that they want to play only FCS schools? Boom! The Big South makes a rule about scheduling for the first time in its decade plus of existence. This doesn't make it a bad rule but it's annoying that this is the Big South's idea of what constitutes leadership. Secondly, simply put, the Big South is doing it because the members haven't. Left to themselves, Presbyterian and Charleston Southern would schedule multiple D2's and NAIA's just to pad the dates between playing the conference schedule and their second -- or third -- ACC or SEC school. They are not the only ones to have played multiple sub-D1's but they're the ones who have a pattern of it and, worse, they're the ones who periodically lose to those sub-D1's. This drags the rest of the conference down in every respect.

Interesting points. You're right about Chuck South (I was tempted to call this the Chuck South rule) and Presby's scheduling but when you say "drags down the conference in every respect", surely you also mean in terms of perceived "schedule strength"? After all, CCU lost to Chuck South last year. I think it's a fair question, based on what you wrote, whether the issue is a conference team with low perceived "schedule strength" beating the eventual BSC champions, thus forcing CCU into a first-round home game.

I know Chuck South's stadium is tiny, but one would think that getting FCS home-and-homes wouldn't be very hard for them. Lehigh seems to always have a recruit or two from Georgia or South Carolina, and I have a hard time believing that the players would mind a trip to Charleston or Myrtle Beach in early September.

But Chuck South's athletic department, by all accounts, is run on a shoestring budget - hence the need for multiple FBS games. Might forcing them to spend more put them in danger of pulling the plug?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I suppose you didn't notice that Point 3 directly contradicts and invalidates Point 2 so I'll tell you: Point 3 directly contradicts and invalidates Point 2. This is good because Point 2 is utter bullcrap. There are many many many many examples of good teams missing out on the playoffs because of a weak schedule. Lehigh in 2012 and Liberty in 2008 are great examples. Just this past year, Charleston Southern went 10-3 against a joke of a schedule and were left at home without even a discussion.

Certainly you can appreciate in 2012 that a win over Liberty was at least of decent quality, and their win over Princeton was also a good one too, though it wasn't clear at that time that the Tigers would be competing for the Ivy title. Sadly for 10-1 Lehigh, those two wins didn't count for much, though having watched those games I could tell you they ought to have counted for more.

In Lehigh's case, though, they played a full Division I schedule (and have for more than two decades), so theoretically they shouldn't have this issue.... but they did. The committee scored wins over CCSU and Columbia the same way they scored wins over Lenoir-Rhyne and North Greenville.

[clenz]

Two reasons: first, I think it's a good rule but, as usual, the Big South is kowtowing to whatever Coastal Carolina wants. Coastal publicly states that they want to play only FCS schools? Boom! The Big South makes a rule about scheduling for the first time in its decade plus of existence. This doesn't make it a bad rule but it's annoying that this is the Big South's idea of what constitutes leadership. Secondly, simply put, the Big South is doing it because the members haven't. Left to themselves, Presbyterian and Charleston Southern would schedule multiple D2's and NAIA's just to pad the dates between playing the conference schedule and their second -- or third -- ACC or SEC school. They are not the only ones to have played multiple sub-D1's but they're the ones who have a pattern of it and, worse, they're the ones who periodically lose to those sub-D1's. This drags the rest of the conference down in every respect.

A conference doing everything they can to keep their only member worth a damn happy? Wow, never saw that one coming.

Don't keep CCU happy and they are gone at almost any chance they get (not that they won't be already).

The rest of the Big South is...well... CCU has done as much/more in their 10 years of existence than the other schools in the conference have in their combined 200+ seasons of football

[Dave195]

Monmouth will only be in the BS for a max of 4 years.

[walliver]

...

The rest of the Big South is...well... CCU has done as much/more in their 10 years of existence than the other schools in the conference have in their combined 200+ seasons of football

Of the core teams in the Big South, only Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian have long football histories.

I suspect this limit is really to try to raise up the conference as a whole. The Big South was originally formed by a group of NAIA schools who moved up as a group and passed a rule that no schools could play non-D1 schools.

I doubt it is just to make CCU happy, because I don't think there is anything the Big South can do to keep CCU if they are offered a bid to the SoCon or CAA (I have heard they showed no interest when contacted by the Sun Belt).

[clenz]

Of the core teams in the Big South, only Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian have long football histories.

I suspect this limit is really to try to raise up the conference as a whole. The Big South was originally formed by a group of NAIA schools who moved up as a group and passed a rule that no schools could play non-D1 schools.

I doubt it is just to make CCU happy, because I don't think there is anything the Big South can do to keep CCU if they are offered a bid to the SoCon or CAA (I have heard they showed no interest when contacted by the Sun Belt).
Liberty is at 40
CSU is at 30
GWU is at 69
Presby is at 68

CCU is at 11.

It's not like the others haven't had a couple decades to get a huge step up on CCU.

[citdog]

Liberty is at 40
CSU is at 30
GWU is at 69
Presby is at 68

CCU is at 11.

It's not like the others haven't had a couple decades to get a huge step up on CCU.

CSU used to be known as the Baptist College at Charleston and the thought that they would EVER field a 10-3 football team was laughable. They are making good progress.

Presbyterian was a pretty good small college team that played Newberry College for the Bronze Derby. They are making good progress.

[walliver]

CSU used to be known as the Baptist College at Charleston and the thought that they would EVER field a 10-3 football team was laughable. They are making good progress.

Presbyterian was a pretty good small college team that played Newberry College for the Bronze Derby. They are making good progress.

PC has won 4 D-I games in the last four years. One of those was non-scholly Davidson, and two were against VMI. I don't think that is "good progress" (It's definitely not good progress for VMI). I personally think that PC would be happier in the Pioneer League. I don't think they have the resources to play at their current level.

That said, they should have beaten FU last year.

[Bisonator]

What I don't like about this stuff is lumping everyone into the same category by name only. It's stupid for one and just an easy way out for another. It's almost as bad as zero tolerance rules in our society. A fully funded D2 is probably more competitive then a non-scholly D1 just as a top tier FCS school is compared to an FBS bottom feeder. But I digress if no one wants to actually figure out a legitimate SOS formula this is what we are left with I suppose.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What I don't like about this stuff is lumping everyone into the same category by name only. It's stupid for one and just an easy way out for another. It's almost as bad as zero tolerance rules in our society. A fully funded D2 is probably more competitive then a non-scholly D1 just as a top tier FCS school is compared to an FBS bottom feeder. But I digress if no one wants to actually figure out a legitimate SOS formula this is what we are left with I suppose.

It is impossible to come up with a legitimate SOS formula for a college football season with 3 OOC games and even more limited games vs. FBS teams, my unofficial thesis against "schedule strength" for several years running now.

[walliver]

What I don't like about this stuff is lumping everyone into the same category by name only. It's stupid for one and just an easy way out for another. It's almost as bad as zero tolerance rules in our society. A fully funded D2 is probably more competitive then a non-scholly D1 just as a top tier FCS school is compared to an FBS bottom feeder. But I digress if no one wants to actually figure out a legitimate SOS formula this is what we are left with I suppose.

Don't try bring reason and logic into an AGS discussion.

In 2003, FAU lost to a D-2 and made the I-AA semifinals. FAU didn't know what every other I-AA team in the region knew - don't schedule Valdosta State. The top 10 or so D-2 teams have the potential to win the Pioneer League and be competitive in several others. Although they are allowed fewer scholarships than FCS, they also are allowed to play athletes who do not meet D-I academic standards.

[ASU33]

If I was in the SWAC, I would schedule 100% of my OOC as FBS money games and take the paycheck when available.


Why? When many SWAC schools can go out and make just as much in a Classic game against a MEAC or SIAC opponent.

[CID1990]

Don't try bring reason and logic into an AGS discussion.

In 2003, FAU lost to a D-2 and made the I-AA semifinals. FAU didn't know what every other I-AA team in the region knew - don't schedule Valdosta State. The top 10 or so D-2 teams will always beat Davidson. Although they are allowed fewer scholarships than FCS, they also are allowed to play athletes who do not meet D-I academic standards.

fify

[MplsBison]

What I don't like about this stuff is lumping everyone into the same category by name only. It's stupid for one and just an easy way out for another. It's almost as bad as zero tolerance rules in our society. A fully funded D2 is probably more competitive then a non-scholly D1 just as a top tier FCS school is compared to an FBS bottom feeder. But I digress if no one wants to actually figure out a legitimate SOS formula this is what we are left with I suppose.

But most of the time the big schools of one division do not schedule the most successful teams in the next division down, to purposefully avoid exactly what you describe.

The SEC teams aren't playing the best FCS teams. The best FCS teams aren't scheduling the best DII teams.


So it's much easier and reasonable to simply disallow the entire (sub-)division to be scheduled.

[MplsBison]

fify

As far as I know, the NCAA clearinghouse is standardized for all sports in Division I.

DII does have athletes playing that would not have met the DI clearinghouse.