SEC Commissioner Mike Slive will form a Divison IV if P5 isn't given autonomy

[centennial]

DESTIN, Florida - It was no idle threat and no empty promise. Mike Slive always chooses his words carefully, and no matter how softly he speaks them, it's obvious when he's serious.
It was very obvious how serious he was Friday afternoon.
When the SEC commissioner threatens to pull out of Division I and form a new Division IV if the NCAA doesn't give the big boys the autonomy they want in the form they want it, he means it.
"We need to face up to change," Slive said in his final visit with the media to conclude the SEC's spring meeting. "It is time. I do believe this is a historic moment, and if we don't seize the moment, we'll be making a mistake."
He didn't take off his shoe and bang it on the podium to drive home his point, but that would've been overkill. Slive's vow was powerful enough.
Autonomy on their terms or else.
The resolution of ongoing major lawsuits aside, the future of the NCAA comes down to this: Come August, if the NCAA Division I Board of Directors doesn't approve a governance reform package that meets the approval of the SEC, ACC, Big Ten, Big 12 and Pac-12, those power conferences plan to form their own division within the NCAA.
"If it doesn't pass, the next move would be to go to a Division IV," Slive said.
Division IV would have its own rules on such things as scholarship limits, just as Divisions I, II and III do now. It would be Big Boy Central.


http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/05/mike_slive_says_big_boys_will.html#incart_river_sp orts

[walliver]

The NCAA could form a "Division IV", but the SEC can't.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What if the NCAA said no?

[DFW HOYA]

What if the NCAA said no?

Practically, very little, but they could always withdraw some sports from NCAA contention and play under a different governing body.

Example--NCAA teams compete for sailing titles but it is not under NCAA control.

[centennial]

Practically, very little, but they could always withdraw some sports from NCAA contention and play under a different governing body.

Example--NCAA teams compete for sailing titles but it is not under NCAA control.
This^. If they want to, nothing can really stop them.


The NCAA could form a "Division IV", but the SEC can't.

Probably means a new non-NCAA sanctioned division.

[centennial]

Interesting take from Boise State's president

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoEU5HxTFdQ
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2014/05/21/3195511/boise-state-president-bob-kustra.html

Another article-
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140530/ncaa-governance-structure-sec-spring-meetings/

[MplsBison]

There's already an autonomy thread, started by LFN. This should be merged with that.

In that thread I believe I've already hit upon the solution to the cost of the more expensive scholarships. In fact, the more I think about it the more obvious it becomes that indeed there will be a significant pressure to implement it in order to offset the higher per athlete costs of the reforms.

Simply: decrease the maximum cap on the number of football participants who can receive a scholarship. For example, from 85 to 65 would do the trick nicely.

Then you have a scholarship roster of 65 players and a practice squad of 20 players vying to earn a scholarship.


The FCS would have the same lowered limit.

[bluehenbillk]

The NCAA can't & has no interest in telling these schools "no".....

[clenz]

The NCAA can't & has no interest in telling these schools "no".....
Basically this.

Let them pull their football programs - the NCAA will lose some money but the bowls and title game as they were set up weren't going to the NCAA - at least in any "real" manner.

However, pulling their basketball programs from the NCAA tournament for basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, etc... would be a huge hit to the NCAA.

[Panther88]

Basically this.

Let them pull their football programs - the NCAA will lose some money but the bowls and title game as they were set up weren't going to the NCAA - at least in any "real" manner.

However, pulling their basketball programs from the NCAA tournament for basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, etc... would be a huge hit to the NCAA.

+1. Those are my thoughts precisely. The segregation of the "haves" vs "have nots" is plainly evident, still. (former division I-A, I-AA olden days)

Why doesn't the ncaa do away w/ the subdivisions FBS/FCS w/in division I and have everyone on the same level scholarship wise for football? Every sport excepting football is division I and all @ at the same level scholarship wise (#s). (I already know the answer but food for thought that indicts the money grubbers/powermongers @ the top)

[walliver]

Basically this.

Let them pull their football programs - the NCAA will lose some money but the bowls and title game as they were set up weren't going to the NCAA - at least in any "real" manner.

However, pulling their basketball programs from the NCAA tournament for basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, etc... would be a huge hit to the NCAA.

Basketball would be the only big loss. Basically, March Madness finances the NCAA.

If the P5 did pull away, would the Big East and other BB conferences try to follow? When the P5 start paying basketball players, the serious basketball schools will have to keep up. It is also likely that the AAC, and possibly the other 4 wannabes, would try to sue their way into the new entity.

[MplsBison]

The NCAA can't & has no interest in telling these schools "no".....

The NCAA administration will vote in August on whatever autonomy proposal that the P5 design and accept.

Then in January, the NCAA Division I member body will vote on the same proposal.


I doubt the vote in August will be anything but a resounding yes. However, the vote in January could be interesting if the Boise St president is joined in a propaganda campaign against the proposal by other FBS football playing teams.

[MplsBison]

Basketball would be the only big loss. Basically, March Madness finances the NCAA.

If the P5 did pull away, would the Big East and other BB conferences try to follow? When the P5 start paying basketball players, the serious basketball schools will have to keep up. It is also likely that the AAC, and possibly the other 4 wannabes, would try to sue their way into the new entity.

If there was a new division created for the P5 that wasn't just meant as a governing structure - ie, a hard cut in all sports from the rest of the current DI member body of non-football and FCS football schools - then I do think there's a strong possibility that the G5 would be invited along for the ride.

Much cleaner that way:

- it further validates the CFP as being the true Division I post season (no more complication with FCS technically being DI)
- P5 programs need extra home games and wins every year and the G5 provides that
- like it or not, the G5 still contain some state flagship public schools that could use their senators to threaten federal government intervention into major college football if they aren't included

[PAllen]

Just call it what it is: NCAA Division PRO

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If there was a new division created for the P5 that wasn't just meant as a governing structure - ie, a hard cut in all sports from the rest of the current DI member body of non-football and FCS football schools - then I do think there's a strong possibility that the G5 would be invited along for the ride.

Unless the P5 are only motivated by money, which they appear to be.

[MplsBison]

Unless the P5 are only motivated by money, which they appear to be.

You're proven wrong by the fact that the G5 are integral in the CFP.

Even if it could be shown that the P5 wanted to keep all the money for themselves, then at least you have to concede that the G5 further pried open the gate to the greatest amount of guaranteed bowl game access and revenue that they've ever had.

If so, then there's no way they wouldn't attempt to force themselves into a such a new, hard cut division with the P5.


Perhaps, only the AAC and MWC would be invited. I could understand something like that. But I doubt the commissioners of the CUSA, MAC and Sun Belt would just stand around saying "aw, shucks" if they weren't going to be included. They'd threaten going to the feds too. It just makes it much cleaner to invite the entire G5, given the CFP, given the need for home games and wins.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Even if it could be shown that the P5 wanted to keep all the money for themselves, then at least you have to concede that the G5 further pried open the gate to the greatest amount of guaranteed bowl game access and revenue that they've ever had.

And even with that, none of the G5 are making a profit on athletics. Not even Boise State.

[MplsBison]

And even with that, none of the G5 are making a profit on athletics. Not even Boise State.

So??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So??

If you spend $10 million annually to make $1 million in revenue annually, is that a sustainable business model?

So you spend $5 million to make $0 before. Now, you've increased your revenues buy $1 million - "more than ever before"! But you're still hemorrhaging money. Nearly twice as much as before.

[MplsBison]

If you spend $10 million annually to make $1 million in revenue annually, is that a sustainable business model?

So you spend $5 million to make $0 before. Now, you've increased your revenues buy $1 million - "more than ever before"! But you're still hemorrhaging money. Nearly twice as much as before.

Nice things cost money. The students voted to support athletics with their fees. Because they want athletics.

[paward]

This debate and vote was over before the SEC uttered a word. Typical example of too much power.

[SUPharmacist]

Nice things cost money. The students voted to support athletics with their fees. Because they want athletics.

I have heard this from you a lot, but how much choice do students really have? If I am going to a school because of a specific program, will I back out because they job me on student fees. Some students maybe, the majority will stay with the program that looks like a good fit.

[RichH2]

Does anyone really think Div IV group would lower number of schollies to contain costs. More likely they would raise cap to lock up best talent. Much as it was before NCAA started limiting schollies.

[MplsBison]

I have heard this from you a lot, but how much choice do students really have? If I am going to a school because of a specific program, will I back out because they job me on student fees. Some students maybe, the majority will stay with the program that looks like a good fit.

Would you still have gone to NDSU for Pharmacy if the athletics fee was $5000 a year? I think not. SDSU or the U of MN would've been your choice, instead.

But moreso, my point is that any time the school wants to raise the athletics fee, the students most vote on it. If they vote yes, then nothing more can be said. They accepted that major college athletics has a major cost associated with it and agreed to help foot the bill with their own money.

[MplsBison]

Does anyone really think Div IV group would lower number of schollies to contain costs. More likely they would raise cap to lock up best talent. Much as it was before NCAA started limiting schollies.

It doesn't make any sense to increase the number of scholarships when its still unknown how much a scholarship is going to cost once the dust settles.

For certain, the maximum valuation is going to increase, but we don't yet know to what heights it will ultimately soar.


Then you throw on the objections from the G5 (see post #6) and you have to come to some compromise that allows the increased benefits while containing the costs.

The easiest way to increase the benefits to student-athletes by $500k is to then take out $500k in scholarship costs. There's absolutely no reason why FBS teams need 85 players to be on full scholarship.

[PAllen]

At this point, I'm just waiting for the SEC vs NFL Preseason scrimmages.

[2ram]

I have heard this from you a lot, but how much choice do students really have? If I am going to a school because of a specific program, will I back out because they job me on student fees. Some students maybe, the majority will stay with the program that looks like a good fit.

i agree, but i think the pool of schools they're looking in usually have a certain cost/academic/athletic profiles. in other words the typical student is looking for a certain 'package', not just a particular program. just my opinion.

[BEAR]

The only SEC school in our state announced on the news last night that you can now set up payments to pay for your season tickets.

Really?

Pathetic. Make your tickets so expensive that the average joe has to make payments. Sad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The only SEC school in our state announced on the news last night that you can now set up payments to pay for your season tickets.

Really?

Pathetic. Make your tickets so expensive that the average joe has to make payments. Sad.

Hm...


Season tickets start at $300 per seat.


The Hogs six home games in Fayetteville include non-conference opponents Nicholls State (Sept. 6), Northern Illinois (Sept. 20) and UAB (Oct. 25) and SEC matchups vs. Alabama (Oct. 11), LSU (Nov. 15) and Ole Miss (Nov. 22). The Razorbacks other home game will be played in Little Rock vs. Georgia on Oct. 18.

Capacity of Arkansas' stadium is 72,000 (expandable to 80,000).

Let's say season tickets average $400 per fan, and they sell 20,000 of them.

That's $8 million dollars PER YEAR.

So what's the profit for Arkansas if they replace Nicholls State with Notre Dame? Probably the same: $8 million per year, 20,000 season tickets sold. And remember, this is ONLY for ticket sales - this doesn't count concessions, merchandise, and other things.

The only way it makes sense for Arkansas to upgrade their schedule is to 1) expand their stadium and 2) essentially gain 10,000 to 20,000 more season ticket holders or increase the cost of their season tickets and keep the subscriber level steady.

[MplsBison]

The only SEC school in our state announced on the news last night that you can now set up payments to pay for your season tickets.

Really?

Pathetic. Make your tickets so expensive that the average joe has to make payments. Sad.

What are your thoughts on the costs of NFL tickets and seat licences?

http://www.startribune.com/politics/statelocal/244270481.html

[MplsBison]

Hm...





Capacity of Arkansas' stadium is 72,000 (expandable to 80,000).

Let's say season tickets average $400 per fan, and they sell 20,000 of them.

That's $8 million dollars PER YEAR.

So what's the profit for Arkansas if they replace Nicholls State with Notre Dame? Probably the same: $8 million per year, 20,000 season tickets sold. And remember, this is ONLY for ticket sales - this doesn't count concessions, merchandise, and other things.

The only way it makes sense for Arkansas to upgrade their schedule is to 1) expand their stadium and 2) essentially gain 10,000 to 20,000 more season ticket holders or increase the cost of their season tickets and keep the subscriber level steady.

The profit they gain by adding Notre Dame is the difference in the bowl game they'll be invited to. A CFP bowl gets more money than a non-CFP bowl.

Or they could replace Nicholls with Arkansas St, still get the benefit of playing a FBS team instead of a FCS team and play an in-state team.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The profit they gain by adding Notre Dame is the difference in the bowl game they'll be invited to. A CFP bowl gets more money than a non-CFP bowl.

Or they could replace Nicholls with Arkansas St, still get the benefit of playing a FBS team instead of a FCS team and play an in-state team.

It works the other way, too. If they go 6-6 with a win over Nicholls, they get a bowl bid. If they go 5-7 with a loss to Arkansas State, they probably don't.

Which scenario is more likely?

[MplsBison]

It works the other way, too. If they go 6-6 with a win over Nicholls, they get a bowl bid. If they go 5-7 with a loss to Arkansas State, they probably don't.

Which scenario is more likely?

Valid point.

But that also means the head coach and athletic director have to tell boosters and fans "we know that our team sucks this year. We're just trying to make it into any two bit bowl that we can. That's why our schedule is the way it is."

Might not go over well.

[BEAR]

Hm...





Capacity of Arkansas' stadium is 72,000 (expandable to 80,000).

Let's say season tickets average $400 per fan, and they sell 20,000 of them.

That's $8 million dollars PER YEAR.

So what's the profit for Arkansas if they replace Nicholls State with Notre Dame? Probably the same: $8 million per year, 20,000 season tickets sold. And remember, this is ONLY for ticket sales - this doesn't count concessions, merchandise, and other things.

The only way it makes sense for Arkansas to upgrade their schedule is to 1) expand their stadium and 2) essentially gain 10,000 to 20,000 more season ticket holders or increase the cost of their season tickets and keep the subscriber level steady.

But remember the SEC now has a network of its own. With kickoff games at 3 p.m. how many "fans" do you think will sweat it out in that direct 100 degree heat instead of sitting in front of their 50" TV they bought at a discount at Wal-Mart. I can tell you already from the local radio stations sports shows that MANY have plans to stay home and party there. I think the payment plan for season tix was an incentive to get them to come to games instead of staying home. But I think the benefits of staying home are just too great for those fans.

A/C
Party
Replays
Angles
Big TV
Alcohol
couch
Zero on tickets

the list goes on and on...

(of course I have season tix and a tailgate spot for my team! ..and we're not on TV much anyway..but I'd be there no matter what..even road games! )

[BEAR]

The profit they gain by adding Notre Dame is the difference in the bowl game they'll be invited to. A CFP bowl gets more money than a non-CFP bowl.

Or they could replace Nicholls with Arkansas St, still get the benefit of playing a FBS team instead of a FCS team and play an in-state team.

Bingo. Although I want SEC schools to play FCS teams, not all are considered upper SEC, like Bama, and have to schedule better opponents to get a better bowl or title shot. Teams like Arkansas will never or rarely be considered for a national championship because they are just mid to low level SEC that schedules lower level FCS/Sunbelt teams.

[AmsterBison]

If the P5 gets everything they want (which is every last nickle, no NCAA oversight, and complete lockout of any non-P5 teams from any championships), then is there any advantage to keeping them around in the NCAA?

Maybe it's time to let them become the college-affiliated, television-network-controlled, semipro league they aspire to be.... outside of the NCAA and, really, outside of college athletics. Becoming D-leagues would just put them more in line with the reality of their situations.

Heck, I think that a basketball tourney without them would do just fine (and eventually put more money into the non-P5 schools' pockets.) There are a lot of television networks looking for programming.

[walliver]

...

Heck, I think that a basketball tourney without them would do just fine (and eventually put more money into the non-P5 schools' pockets.) There are a lot of television networks looking for programming.

A basketball Tournament without Duke, UNC, Louisville, Florida, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc would not be particularly profitable. It might be attractive in the Big East territory, but, in many parts of the country the top BB teams are in the P5.

[AmsterBison]

A basketball Tournament without Duke, UNC, Louisville, Florida, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc would not be particularly profitable. It might be attractive in the Big East territory, but, in many parts of the country the top BB teams are in the P5.

With the P5 in the NCAA BB tourney, the Dancce wouldn't be as profitable, but it would be profitable. The money that non-P5 schools get from the NCAA tourney is going to go down anyway - and it's not much to begin with.

On the flip side, a "college" BB tournament without the other 280 DI teams would be less profitable.

Given its way, the P5 is going to squeeze the life out of the rest of DI. Why let them?

Besides, I think that on their own, they'll self-destruct (or lawsuits will take them down.) They'll be like the fattest bison in a herd who decides to go off on their own (i.e. fresh meat.)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The big question is would the Big East be included with the P5.

[RichH2]

A basketball Tournament without Duke, UNC, Louisville, Florida, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc would not be particularly profitable. It might be attractive in the Big East territory, but, in many parts of the country the top BB teams are in the P5.
Agree emotionally but will impact on Bball,altho impact will hurt P5 schools at least as much as NCAA.

[RichH2]

The big question is would the Big East be included with the P5.
Probably would try to,if they decide to secede. Very unlikely that BE would go with the 5. More likely ACC would vote to stay in NCAA

[GannonFan]

The big question is would the Big East be included with the P5.

In practice, they already did include them. That's what gobbling up 'Cuse and BC and Va Tech and Pitt and everyone else has been about. What was worthwhile in the Big East is already pulled out and included in the P5. The Big East as it is today is a husk where just the name remains. There's nothing else to take from it. This past year was just a snapshot of where the Big East is - they're basically the A10, or even slightly worse than the A10, with a better name and post season tournament venue. But that name and the venue get less and less valuable each year we get away from when the Big East mattered. There's no football left in the Big East so there's no need for the P5 to do anything with them.

[MplsBison]

If the P5 gets everything they want (which is every last nickle, no NCAA oversight, and complete lockout of any non-P5 teams from any championships), then is there any advantage to keeping them around in the NCAA?

Maybe it's time to let them become the college-affiliated, television-network-controlled, semipro league they aspire to be.... outside of the NCAA and, really, outside of college athletics. Becoming D-leagues would just put them more in line with the reality of their situations.

Heck, I think that a basketball tourney without them would do just fine (and eventually put more money into the non-P5 schools' pockets.) There are a lot of television networks looking for programming.

I would've thought someone who commands as much respect and reputation as you do around here would be above such exaggerated hysteria as this.

That's too bad.

[MplsBison]

In practice, they already did include them. That's what gobbling up 'Cuse and BC and Va Tech and Pitt and everyone else has been about. What was worthwhile in the Big East is already pulled out and included in the P5. The Big East as it is today is a husk where just the name remains. There's nothing else to take from it. This past year was just a snapshot of where the Big East is - they're basically the A10, or even slightly worse than the A10, with a better name and post season tournament venue. But that name and the venue get less and less valuable each year we get away from when the Big East mattered. There's no football left in the Big East so there's no need for the P5 to do anything with them.

No offense, but it's so unfair to compare the Big East now with the Big East of the early 2000's.

Not that it makes any of what you said untrue...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In practice, they already did include them. That's what gobbling up 'Cuse and BC and Va Tech and Pitt and everyone else has been about. What was worthwhile in the Big East is already pulled out and included in the P5. The Big East as it is today is a husk where just the name remains. There's nothing else to take from it. This past year was just a snapshot of where the Big East is - they're basically the A10, or even slightly worse than the A10, with a better name and post season tournament venue. But that name and the venue get less and less valuable each year we get away from when the Big East mattered. There's no football left in the Big East so there's no need for the P5 to do anything with them.

That's the theory, anyway, that BC, Syracuse and Pitt have Southern cachet in the absence of playing Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, etc. in hoops. (Strangely, though, not UConn.)

For Louisville, it's probably a great move. Not so sure it's working out all that great for BC or Syracuse.

[MplsBison]

The big question is would the Big East be included with the P5.

Not impossible that the BE, A10 and even the MVFC or perhaps one/two non-football leagues could also be brought along for the ride in a new hard-cut division.

But keeping membership limited to P5 and G5 is cleaner.

[MplsBison]

That's the theory, anyway, that BC, Syracuse and Pitt have Southern cachet in the absence of playing Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, etc. in hoops. (Strangely, though, not UConn.)

For Louisville, it's probably a great move. Not so sure it's working out all that great for BC or Syracuse.

If UConn, Syracuse, BC and UMass were all in the AAC, that might have been something. But it still wouldn't have been enough to get their football champion an automatic birth to one of the six CFP bowls.

They'd still be just in the group of five.

[GannonFan]

That's the theory, anyway, that BC, Syracuse and Pitt have Southern cachet in the absence of playing Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, etc. in hoops. (Strangely, though, not UConn.)

For Louisville, it's probably a great move. Not so sure it's working out all that great for BC or Syracuse.

Do you really think Syracuse is regretting playing in the ACC?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Do you really think Syracuse is regretting playing in the ACC?

I do.

http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2014/03/jim_boeheim_i_dont_care_if_the_acc_tournament_is_o n_the_moon.html


"You know, I don't care if they play the tournament on the moon," he said Sunday. "As long as they got a basketball court there, we're going to go play. All the other stuff is just a Northern, not-funny guy trying to make some humorous remarks that people tend to want to take the wrong way. I'm fine with it. I'm fine with the tournament wherever it is. It's just about the basketball. That's all it's about.

"Obviously for us, we're in New York. We'd like to go to New York. It's right there."

Instead, his Syracuse team will head to Greensboro this week seeking to cure what Boeheim described as his team's lingering ills.

"We need to go there," he said, "we need to work at what we're doing and try to have a good experience in the tournament to get ready for the following week, which is what everybody is trying to do."

The unofficial rule about Syracuse is: If Boeheim ain't happy, nobody's happy.

More seriously, for the whole athletic department there's just not a lot of rivalry there in all the other non-revenue sports, either, except lacrosse. Lots of championships (and plane flights) down to Greensboro, Clemson, Virginia Tech. If a local track and field athlete goes to Syracuse, suddenly they need to take flights to see their kid compete whereas before it was a drive.

[Bisonoline]

All he is saying is---we will be part of your organization but we will have special rules just for us and you will treat us differently. If not BYE BYE youre on your own with whats left.

[GannonFan]

I do.

http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2014/03/jim_boeheim_i_dont_care_if_the_acc_tournament_is_o n_the_moon.html



The unofficial rule about Syracuse is: If Boeheim ain't happy, nobody's happy.

More seriously, for the whole athletic department there's just not a lot of rivalry there in all the other non-revenue sports, either, except lacrosse. Lots of championships (and plane flights) down to Greensboro, Clemson, Virginia Tech. If a local track and field athlete goes to Syracuse, suddenly they need to take flights to see their kid compete whereas before it was a drive.[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

Context is important there. Boeheim wasn't happy with how his team performed late in the year and he also wasn't happy with a slew of officiating calls that went against him. That doesn't translate into not wanting to be in the ACC. Besides, what Boeheim wanted was for the Big East of the 80's and 90's to suddenly reappear, along with old friends like John Thompson to come back to coaching.

Oh, and Syracuse didn't make the move to the ACC because of track and field. And how many track and field kids are really local to Syracuse to begin with? Half of their roster is New Jersey kids anyway.