Six HBCUs and St. Francis (PA) with postseason APR ban

[Lehigh Football Nation]

https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/466642068345872384/photo/1

Alabama State
FAMU
Mississippi Valley State
Prairie View A&M
Savannah State
Arkansas-Pine Bluff

St. Francis (PA)

What a stunner! Six out of seven schools hit by APR penalties are HBCUs. Once again, in an effort to attempt to punish the P5 schools, it's the HBCUs that are unfairly suffering from the postseason bans xpissedxxrolleyesx

[centennial]

https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/466642068345872384/photo/1

Alabama State
FAMU
Mississippi Valley State
Prairie View A&M
Savannah State
Arkansas-Pine Bluff

St. Francis (PA)

What a stunner! Six out of seven schools hit by APR penalties are HBCUs. Once again, in an effort to attempt to punish the P5 schools, it's the HBCUs that are unfairly suffering from the postseason bans xpissedxxrolleyesx
What's wrong with punishing teams with APR problems?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's wrong with punishing teams with APR problems?

APR punishes lack of retention more so than lack of eligibility.

Example:

NC athletes get "classes" and get 4.0, they stay at UNC so UNC gets perfect APR score

MVSU athletes pass, but mom and dad go bankrupt and can't pay the partial scholarship, kid drops out, APR takes hit

There are very easy ways to fudge academic eligibility, but it's not so easy to fudge kids to stay in school if they can't afford it without a scholarship.

[superman7515]

Kids aren't dropping out of these football programs because they can't afford the school; they're dropping out because of coaching turnovers, poor grades, and coaches being too willing to take in kids that had no business in the school to begin with.

Besides, only FAMU had an outside shot at the playoffs anyway.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's No Surprise: HBCU's Take Unfair Brunt of APR Football Postseason Penalties (https://www.facebook.com/CollegeSportsJournal#)

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/821-it-s-no-surprise-hbcu-s-take-brunt-of-apr-football-postseason-penalties

Supe and I can agree to disagree.

[lionsrking2]

It's No Surprise: HBCU's Take Unfair Brunt of APR Football Postseason Penalties (https://www.facebook.com/CollegeSportsJournal#)

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/821-it-s-no-surprise-hbcu-s-take-brunt-of-apr-football-postseason-penalties

Supe and I can agree to disagree.

Excellent piece, and spot on.

[centennial]

It's No Surprise: HBCU's Take Unfair Brunt of APR Football Postseason Penalties (https://www.facebook.com/CollegeSportsJournal#)

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/821-it-s-no-surprise-hbcu-s-take-brunt-of-apr-football-postseason-penalties

Supe and I can agree to disagree.
I think HBCU should just drop to D2 and be done with it. They are short on resources and staffing. The average D2 school is probably ahead of them in up keep of facilities and spend close to the same money. Also, they don't get the class of players nor the patronage they used to get anymore.

[blackbeard]

And this reported by Jon Solomon with CBS

Jon Solomon‏@JonSolomonCBS3 hrs (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/JonSolomonCBS/status/466649940148908033)Clarification: All Southern University teams also have APR postseason bans due to unusable data. Ouch.

[citdog]

So we shouldn't judge these schools by results but by some other standard? Their job of retaining athletes is EASY compared to others.

[Yotes]

I question the standards of the APR. Shouldn't the performance in the classroom be about the only metric worth reviewing?

Everyone follows the same rules though, so I can't see how this is unfair to HBCUs.

[bonarae]

I think HBCU should just drop to D2 and be done with it. They are short on resources and staffing. The average D2 school is probably ahead of them in up keep of facilities and spend close to the same money. Also, they don't get the class of players nor the patronage they used to get anymore.

Yes. Also, is this true with the FCS as well?

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/10932250/college-apr-scores-show-difference-haves-nots

[superman7515]

Everyone follows the same rules though, so I can't see how this is unfair to HBCUs.

Not everyone follows the same rules. The vast majority of schools have to meet an APR of 930 (1/2 the team has to graduate), but HBCU's only have to meet a 910 APR.

[Panther88]

You are what you recruit (retain).

Sad. Sad. Sad. *smh* xsmhx

[bkrownd]

What a stunner! Six out of seven schools hit by APR penalties are HBCUs. Once again, in an effort to attempt to punish the P5 schools, it's the HBCUs that are unfairly suffering from the postseason bans xpissedxxrolleyesx

I'm kind of scratching my head. "Unfairly"?

And then the linked article later in the thread that somehow blames this on other schools having TV contracts and fancy bowl games. Those are somehow the bad guys instead?

[BluBengal07]

here we go again with this xcoffeex

here's the full list guys to review all of D1.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/5/14/5717872/new-2013-apr-scores-ncaa-football

Jackson State = 931. work is still needed, but strong progress and this is just the beginning.

[superman7515]

here we go again with this xcoffeex

here's the full list guys to review all of D1.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/5/14/5717872/new-2013-apr-scores-ncaa-football

Jackson State = 931. work is still needed, but strong progress and this is just the beginning.


Hey Blu, any word on what happened with Southern?

[clenz]

It's really a strange contrast to see.

UNI has 4 or 5 programs with a perfect 1000APR and 3 or 4 more in the top 10% (football is top 10% of FCS I believe and top 20% overall.)

I'm not sure how this is "unfair" when it's the same creteria for all schools..except HBCUs get to have a lower standard...and 6 of 12 total schools put on ban are HBCU

[BluBengal07]

Hey Blu, any word on what happened with Southern?

super, i barely understand what's going on down there. it seems to be a a lack of papers from the old admins files produced by the new admins for NCAA. Southern posters talked like things were going to clear up but here we are. i can't wait until JSU leaves the SWAC.

[Big Dawg]

So we shouldn't judge these schools by results but by some other standard? Their job of retaining athletes is EASY compared to others.


How is it "EASY" compared to others?

[Big Dawg]

The only thing that pisses me off is APR does take into account the kids currently going to class...APR has and always will be a total joke, IMO

Or maybe I'm just missing what APR actually is? And do major schools take an APR when their players leave early for the NFL or NBA?

[813Jag]

Hey Blu, any word on what happened with Southern?

NCAA hasn't made their announcement yet. Should be getting word in the next couple weeks. They were on campus early this month.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk

[813Jag]

super, i barely understand what's going on down there. it seems to be a a lack of papers from the old admins files produced by the new admins for NCAA. Southern posters talked like things were going to clear up but here we are. i can't wait until JSU leaves the SWAC.
Basically what happened is who ever was in charge of maintaining old paperwork pre 2009 didn't do so. The NCAA made a random visit to Southern and 39 other schools. Southern somehow didn't have the paperwork. The NCAA gave Southern deadlines to meet which led to people thinking the issue would be cleared up. They needed more info than the school provided.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk

[Cocky]

JSU was able to raise our APR by enrolling our players in online class at North Carolina-Chapel Hill. An excellent plan to raise your athletic GPA.

[BluBengal07]

Basically what happened is who ever was in charge of maintaining old paperwork pre 2009 didn't do so. The NCAA made a random visit to Southern and 39 other schools. Southern somehow didn't have the paperwork. The NCAA gave Southern deadlines to meet which led to people thinking the issue would be cleared up. They needed more info than the school provided.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk

thanks for chiming in. we'll see how this wraps up soon for Southern.

JSU was able to raise our APR by enrolling our players in online class at North Carolina-Chapel Hill. An excellent plan to raise your athletic GPA.

that's interesting...
so your players already had a small schedule to add more classes from UNC, players eliminated JSU classes for UNC classes or players took additional classes to an already full JSU schedule?

[BluBengal07]

Basically what happened is who ever was in charge of maintaining old paperwork pre 2009 didn't do so. The NCAA made a random visit to Southern and 39 other schools. Southern somehow didn't have the paperwork. The NCAA gave Southern deadlines to meet which led to people thinking the issue would be cleared up. They needed more info than the school provided.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk

thanks for chiming in. we'll see how this wraps up soon for Southern.

JSU was able to raise our APR by enrolling our players in online class at North Carolina-Chapel Hill. An excellent plan to raise your athletic GPA.

that's interesting...
so your players already had a small schedule to add more classes from UNC, players eliminated JSU classes for UNC classes or players took additional classes to an already full JSU schedule?
how was GPA improved with this approach?

[Cocky]

thanks for chiming in. we'll see how this wraps up soon for Southern.


that's interesting...
so your players already had a small schedule to add more classes from UNC, players eliminated JSU classes for UNC classes or players took additional classes to an already full JSU schedule?
how was GPA improved with this approach?


Joking about Chapel Hill being caught giving athlete grades for several years. You have to take all of this with a grain of salt. These athletic factory schools can cover up lots of things with their money.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Joking about Chapel Hill being caught giving athlete grades for several years. You have to take all of this with a grain of salt. These athletic factory schools can cover up lots of things with their money.

Behind the joke, though, is a major point. Academics can be fudged. Retention cannot.

[henfan]

Behind the joke, though, is a major point. Academics can be fudged. Retention cannot.

But aren't they two sides of the same coin? How high would retention rates be at some of the BCS "football factories" if they didn't 'fudge' grades and weren't able to throw considerable resources at student-athletes with marginal academics above the failing line?

[citdog]

How is it "EASY" compared to others?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk73pIQaDi4

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

So according to Superman, a passing score is graduating half of your players. Will at least 50% of HBCU freshmen (who aren't student athletes) graduate? I would bet not. As I have said before, it's silly to expect student athletes to graduate with rates better than the student population at large. APR scores should be calculated relative to overall student retention at each institution.

Of course, that'll never happen because many of the P5 schools would then fare the worst even though they have enough money to create degree programs tailor-made to keep athletes eligible.

[clenz]

So according to Superman, a passing score is graduating half of your players. Will at least 50% of HBCU freshmen (who aren't student athletes) graduate? I would bet not. As I have said before, it's silly to expect student athletes to graduate with rates better than the student population at large. APR scores should be calculated relative to overall student retention at each institution.

Of course, that'll never happen because many of the P5 schools would then fare the worst even though they have enough money to create degree programs tailor-made to keep athletes eligible.
Why is that ridiculous?

Athletes are, and should be, held to a higher standard. They represent the university. They are the public face of the university

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Why is that ridiculous?

Athletes are, and should be, held to a higher standard. They represent the university. They are the public face of the university

But is it right if, say, Arkansas Pine Bluff athletes have to be so much better in graduation rates relative to their general student population than at a school like, say, Duke?

[clenz]

But is it right if, say, Arkansas Pine Bluff athletes have to be so much better in graduation rates relative to their general student population than at a school like, say, Duke?
Why shouldn't athletic programs have to focus on getting their athletes graduated?

[Panther88]

It's really a strange contrast to see.

UNI has 4 or 5 programs with a perfect 1000APR and 3 or 4 more in the top 10% (football is top 10% of FCS I believe and top 20% overall.)

I'm not sure how this is "unfair" when it's the same creteria for all schools..except HBCUs get to have a lower standard...and 6 of 12 total schools put on ban are HBCU
*crickets*

You won't receive a solid answer for this, clenz. Some will label me an HBCU hater if I chime in lol. And I graduated undergrad from a university that I didn't know was an HBCU until I left. Go figure... xsmhx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A student doesn't make it through college. Is it the college's fault for admitting the student? Is it the student's fault for applying to the college?

Or maybe we take a step back and figure out that some colleges have different missions than others, and the fact that they have different missions doesn't make them wrong?

[bkrownd]

A student doesn't make it through college. Is it the college's fault for admitting the student? Is it the student's fault for applying to the college?

Or maybe we take a step back and figure out that some colleges have different missions than others, and the fact that they have different missions doesn't make them wrong?

Is graduation not part of the mission at some places then? (excepting "non-traditional students" of course)

[clenz]

Is graduation not part of the mission at some places then? (excepting "non-traditional students" of course)
My question as well.

What is the mission of a HBCU then?

Accept students for a year or two, get what money they can from the family and them leave them without a degree and completely/hopelessly bankrupt in student debt?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Is graduation not part of the mission at some places then? (excepting "non-traditional students" of course)

Doesn't make much sense to me either. I do think things should be relative between normal student rates and athletics rates but that just creates a different set of problems as well.

Your peers should probably be the other football plying institutions instead of the general student population if the graduation rate at your school is low anyway.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The mission is to have kids graduate, but colleges are not in the business of graduating people. They're in the business of offering educational opportunities.

Is a kid on a half scholarship at Alabama State in it because he's thinking about the NFL, or is he, perhaps, trying to get a secondary education that is affordable, gets to play FCS football, and live out a dream?

Similarly, if this student drops out, why is it? Is it because he never should have been admitted? Did his parent or parents run out of money, and he has to now support the family? Did he flunk out? Did he get in trouble with the law? Did his mom die? Did he marry into a family with no financial problems, and he wants to now start his own hedge fund?

All these are reasons that a school does not retain a student, some of which involve academics.

One of the real plantation aspects of the APR is that people assume the only reason a person wouldn't be retained by a school is through grades.

There is a real misalignment of priorities as it applies to the APR, a system devised in the world of the P5 to apply to the schools of the P5, completely ignorant of the diversity of different institutions. And considering it's been now seven (going on eight) years that the structural problems of the APR have been identified yearly, but nothing has been done about them, it's a willful ignorance.

[BluBengal07]

Joking about Chapel Hill being caught giving athlete grades for several years. You have to take all of this with a grain of salt. These athletic factory schools can cover up lots of things with their money.

oh, my mistake. no problem. but yea, the powerhouse's money can cover-up a lot of mess.

[bkrownd]

One of the real plantation aspects of the APR is that people assume the only reason a person wouldn't be retained by a school is through grades.


Super - we can't avoid dropping the word "plantation" in there, eh? Sounds like a lot of excuses.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Super - we can't avoid dropping the word "plantation" in there, eh? Sounds like a lot of excuses.

Yeah getting a little tired of that too as it's now got to be applied to anything and everything I guess.

LFN you pointed out a myriad of problems that I can assume all contribute to this. I would assume that those problems are present at a whole lot of schools as well but to varying degrees. I think the first place that one ought to look though to fix this problem is at the actual schools having the problems. There are HBCU's not having this problem while others are. That leads me to believe that just looking at schools with similar environments that are making the cut this can be done. First place to look is at the administrations of those schools and programs.

Now are the ways that the APR could be made better? I am sure there are. If we want to proclaim that this is real college football that still retains a focus on the student athlete then I would think the process of graduating these athletes should be a definite focus...and not the kind of graduation that the P5 has gotten used to for their players.

I think the real plantation thinking portion of this comes from trying to not hold all student athletes to a given standard. It sucks but maybe some of these schools need to move toward giving a lower percentage of partial scholarships or searching for other ways around the problem. As always, there isn't one easy answer.

[BEAR]

Looking at that list I was shocked to see several SLC schools on the fringe of 930.

SFA 930
Sam 931
Northwestern State 931
SELA 932
Nichols 946
McNeese 947
UCA 949

All it takes is one bad year and several could be in serious danger. Good news is minus UCA that went from 960 to 949 most are making progress up!

[heath]

A student doesn't make it through college. Is it the college's fault for admitting the student? Is it the student's fault for applying to the college?

Or maybe we take a step back and figure out that some colleges have different missions than others, and the fact that they have different missions doesn't make them wrong?
When that happens at Lehigh, who is at fault? You can only switch majors how many times? Applaud one of your senior minority CBs last season for coming back to school after having to leave academically two seasons ago. I guess getting a Lehigh degree meant much more than a D2 or D3 piece of paper. :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's net this down to a simple question. A kid is on no, or partial, scholarship. Is it right to hold him to the same rules of retention as another kid who is having his whole way paid for?

Family A with football player at Penn State pays the cost of books for his $20,000 education.
Family B with football player at RMU pays $10,000 a year for his $20,000 education.

Which is the football player that is more likely to drop out due to family hardship?

[heath]

Let's net this down to a simple question. A kid is on no, or partial, scholarship. Is it right to hold him to the same rules of retention as another kid who is having his whole way paid for?

Family A with football player at Penn State pays the cost of books for his $20,000 education.
Family B with football player at RMU pays $10,000 a year for his $20,000 education.

Which is the football player that is more likely to drop out due to family hardship?
Depends on which is starting and playing. Some kids go to school to play, others to get a degree...........some both. Most minorities are at school to play. That may not be PC but very true.

[clenz]

Let's net this down to a simple question. A kid is on no, or partial, scholarship. Is it right to hold him to the same rules of retention as another kid who is having his whole way paid for?

Family A with football player at Penn State pays the cost of books for his $20,000 education.
Family B with football player at RMU pays $10,000 a year for his $20,000 education.

Which is the football player that is more likely to drop out due to family hardship?

Which one values education?

Loans are available. Scholarships based on financial need are available. Help is available to those who WANT to go to school

The coaches, athletic departments and even more sad the schools have zero interest in graduating these kids. They don't give a damn about them as people. They, just like all of their students, care only about their couple years of tuition they suck from them and then don't care after that.

You can tell the schools don't support athletics properly (if they insist on having them that is...no school should support athletics if they don't want it...but to have it but not support the programs/athletes is a terrible way to do things.). You can tell these same institutions don't really care about their general student body. If they did the academics would be higher, the academic facilities would be better, getting students access to financial help would be better.


Play whatever card your white guilt causes you to, LFN, the fact is that APR aside these institutions would struggle to meet any sort of rating standard you wanted to put in place.

[Catatonic]

Looking at that list I was shocked to see several SLC schools on the fringe of 930.

SFA 930
Sam 931
Northwestern State 931
SELA 932
Nichols 946
McNeese 947
UCA 949

All it takes is one bad year and several could be in serious danger. Good news is minus UCA that went from 960 to 949 most are making progress up!

In Basketball, not so much. Three of the eight teams banned from the NCAA tournament next year based on low APR are from the SLC (UCA, Houston Baptist and Lamar) And a fourth is on the verge of losing post season eligibility (New Orleans).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Which one values education?

What sort of baloney answer is that? One is paying, and the other does not. What if they can't pay for it out of their own pocket?

What is the chance that the kid who is paying to play doesn't value his education?

[clenz]

What sort of baloney answer is that? One is paying, and the other does not. What if they can't pay for it out of their own pocket?

What is the chance that the kid who is paying to play doesn't value his education?

About the same as an "Average" student...which is an alarmingly high number of them.

If he valued education he'd take out loans to pay for college.

It's a legitimate question.

Which one values education? Based on your answer to that I can tell you with 98% certainty which would be more likely to drop out.

The number of students paying for college out of pocket is nearly zero. The number of kids pay for college out of pocket up front is 1/100000000000000000th of those paying for it out of pocket

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Let's net this down to a simple question. A kid is on no, or partial, scholarship. Is it right to hold him to the same rules of retention as another kid who is having his whole way paid for?

Family A with football player at Penn State pays the cost of books for his $20,000 education.
Family B with football player at RMU pays $10,000 a year for his $20,000 education.

Which is the football player that is more likely to drop out due to family hardship?

I don't know the numbers but as I said earlier I believe your premise is very plausible as to why some drop out. If you know numbers that would certainly bolster your argument here and it would be easier to see why you think that way and give it more credence I think. If you have something on that I'd truly love to see it.

Since I do not know them though I will put forth that the number of those dropping out due to family hardships should make up some of the already lowered numbers for APR shouldn't they? I mean it would appear some relief is being given in at least that sense and the schools are still having more trouble than those with higher standards right?

[clenz]

Aren't athletes who leave in good academic standing not counted against APR?

I thought I read that somewhere

Sent from my S4 using Tapatalk

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Aren't athletes who leave in good academic standing not counted against APR?

I thought I read that somewhere

Sent from my S4 using Tapatalk

Not sure and was gonna ask a related question to do with the numbers but if that's the case I don't need to.

[superman7515]

Aren't athletes who leave in good academic standing not counted against APR?

I thought I read that somewhere

Sent from my S4 using Tapatalk

1) The APR only measures student-athletes receiving scholarships and enrolled full-time
2) If a student transfers out or leaves early for employment purposes (for example professional sports like the NBA, hence Kentucky's 989 APR score) while in good academic standing, the APR is not penalized
3) Each semester a student is awarded 1 point for remaining academically eligible and 1 point for signing up for classes the next semester (obviously no penalty if they graduate)


Let's use an imaginary team with just twenty members receiving scholarships:

Student A maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the fall and enrolls full-time for the spring, maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the spring and enrolls full-time for the next fall: Student A earns 4 out of 4 points

Student B maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the fall and enrolls full-time for the spring, falls below the required 2.6 GPA in the spring and enrolls full-time for the next fall: Student B earns 3 out of 4 points

Student C was enrolled full-time in the fall semester but does not remain eligible and does not return in the spring: Student C earns 0 out of 2 points (never enrolled in the spring, so no penalty assessed)

Student D maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the fall and enrolls full-time for the spring, maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the spring and transfers out for another school the next fall (or gets drafted to the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL/etc) : Student D earns 3 out of 3 points


The remaining 16 students were, like the majority of student-athletes, similar to the profile of Student A and earned a total of 64 points out of 64 possible.

Add them all up: 74 points earned/77 possible = .961 x 1000 = APR of 961

So while it doesn't count against them, they earned 3 out of 3 possible, it does hurt in that it lowers the points possible, thus magnifying any issues other students had. One player having a bad semester on a roster of 60 scholarships does much less harm than one player having a bad semester on a roster of 10 scholarships.

You can use summer session to bring the grades up, medical exceptions can be granted for players who become ill or have a family member who becomes ill (including depression, substance abuse, alcoholism, etc not just physical injury or pnuemonia type of illnesses) leading to their declined academic progress, and missed term exceptions can be granted once per person to allow student-athletes to miss one or more semesters as long as they were eligible at the end of the last completed semester.

[813Jag]

Hey Blu, any word on what happened with Southern?
just wanted to add, Southern is meeting with the NCAA on June 25.
http://www.nbc33tv.com/sports/southern/southern-to-meet-with-nca

[Cocky]

FCS schools should only get deducted the amount of a partial scholarship. If a player has a half then the player should only count half against APR to even things out vs FBS. This would be football only as the other sports are the same.

How do IVY get grades since there are no scholarships?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1)If a student transfers out or leaves early for employment purposes (for example professional sports like the NBA, hence Kentucky's 989 APR score) while in good academic standing, the APR is not penalized

To recap: Kentucky MBB freshman is intensely guided to got to easy classes, hounded to get a barely passing grade, enters the NBA draft, APR is not affected one bit. Half-scholarship kid from Southern's family suffers financial disaster, kid drops out of school, APR loses 1/2 possible points (if he got good grades - 50% of the measure comes from retention).

Sound fair to you?

[downbythebeach]

I never thought Id see this at SFU. Last year was our best ever in d1 and this year we are returning a lot. I know they will focus more on this going forward.

[superman7515]

How do IVY get grades since there are no scholarships?

The Ivy, Pioneer, and formerly the Patriot APR is configured using the score of all student-athletes enrolled for a semester who meet the NCAA’s definition of a "recruited student-athlete" meaning they were given an official visit to the school, or a coach visited the student at home, or the student was called more than one time prior to enrollment by any combination of the coaching staff, etc.

[superman7515]

To recap: Kentucky MBB freshman is intensely guided to got to easy classes, hounded to get a barely passing grade, enters the NBA draft, APR is not affected one bit. Half-scholarship kid from Southern's family suffers financial disaster, kid drops out of school, APR loses 1/2 possible points (if he got good grades - 50% of the measure comes from retention).

Sound fair to you?

If he had good grades and is leaving school, that would be 1/4 of the points, and if he's leaving for financial reasons the school can either, A) help him get financial aid of some sort like any other school in the nation, if community colleges can afford to find money for their thousands of students, a 4-year university surely can do the same; B) help him transfer to a school closer to home, whether that school is a member of the NCAA or not as long as he is enrolled it will not affect the prior univerisities APR at all; C) request a missed term exception which can be for a dozen semesters if they so request, but most likely they can request a missed term exception for the next fall, no penalty is incurred, and they can have nine months to find the kid some money to get him back in the next spring; D) do nothing and complain.

[clenz]

1) The APR only measures student-athletes receiving scholarships and enrolled full-time
2) If a student transfers out or leaves early for employment purposes (for example professional sports like the NBA, hence Kentucky's 989 APR score) while in good academic standing, the APR is not penalized
3) Each semester a student is awarded 1 point for remaining academically eligible and 1 point for signing up for classes the next semester (obviously no penalty if they graduate)


Let's use an imaginary team with just twenty members receiving scholarships:

Student A maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the fall and enrolls full-time for the spring, maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the spring and enrolls full-time for the next fall: Student A earns 4 out of 4 points

Student B maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the fall and enrolls full-time for the spring, falls below the required 2.6 GPA in the spring and enrolls full-time for the next fall: Student B earns 3 out of 4 points

Student C was enrolled full-time in the fall semester but does not remain eligible and does not return in the spring: Student C earns 0 out of 2 points (never enrolled in the spring, so no penalty assessed)

Student D maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the fall and enrolls full-time for the spring, maintains the required 2.6 GPA in the spring and transfers out for another school the next fall (or gets drafted to the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL/etc) : Student D earns 3 out of 3 points


The remaining 16 students were, like the majority of student-athletes, similar to the profile of Student A and earned a total of 64 points out of 64 possible.

Add them all up: 74 points earned/77 possible = .961 x 1000 = APR of 961

So while it doesn't count against them, they earned 3 out of 3 possible, it does hurt in that it lowers the points possible, thus magnifying any issues other students had. One player having a bad semester on a roster of 60 scholarships does much less harm than one player having a bad semester on a roster of 10 scholarships.

You can use summer session to bring the grades up, medical exceptions can be granted for players who become ill or have a family member who becomes ill (including depression, substance abuse, alcoholism, etc not just physical injury or pnuemonia type of illnesses) leading to their declined academic progress, and missed term exceptions can be granted once per person to allow student-athletes to miss one or more semesters as long as they were eligible at the end of the last completed semester.
We are talking football here, not basketball where 13 scholarships, not 10, are available.

A 2.6 isn't hard to maintain to anyone who actually tries. I played college football and pulled a 3.2 while doing so at a school where the professors openly (admit to the class and in editorials) despise athletics (a private D3) and grade them harder than a standard student. Maybe I'm a genius (actually, contrary to popular belief on the intertubes I'm rather intelligent but far from a genius) that I could pull that off. Maybe the team was full of them as our team GPA was about 3.2. Maybe the majority of football programs are full of "genius" athletes that only 12 out of 245 D1 schools end up on APR bans. All the kid has to do is stay eligible and it doesn't matter if he leaves early or not because he won't have a negative impact on the APR. If leaving early hurts because of fewer units how do basketball programs like Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Michigan, or any of the P5 programs not have any APR issues? Oh...they cheat, right? Yeah...

As long as a kid stays eligible it doesn't matter why, or if, they leave...period. If the university/program can't keep kids eligible that goes to exactly what we are saying about it being a university issue...and when it comes to 6, like-minded, universities having the issue at an exponentially higher rate than any other group of universities it starts to speak to a much larger/broader issue.

[tribe_pride]

To recap: Kentucky MBB freshman is intensely guided to got to easy classes, hounded to get a barely passing grade, enters the NBA draft, APR is not affected one bit. Half-scholarship kid from Southern's family suffers financial disaster, kid drops out of school, APR loses 1/2 possible points (if he got good grades - 50% of the measure comes from retention).

Sound fair to you?

Is that true though? If he does not go to school because the family cannot afford it and has to get a job to help the family, the school wouldn't get a penalty, correct?

[clenz]

Is that true though? If he does not go to school because the family cannot afford it and has to get a job to help the family, the school wouldn't get a penalty, correct?
In a situation like that there is zero reason the school wouldn't get it other than not applying for it.

Also, have these kids never heard of loans? How do you think 99% of students get through college?

[superman7515]

We are talking football here, not basketball where 13 scholarships, not 10, are available.

I was just using the 60 vs 10 as an example, I never even mentioned basketball, so you're being a bit picky there, aren't ya?xlolx It was more of a point that it's harder to maintain the APR of say the track & field team than it is to maintain the APR of the football team where it's spread over a considerably larger base, so if the track team is managing to keep the APR up, and the baseball team, and the softball team, and the women's equestrian team, etc who have a handful of kids getting a scholarship, then there's no reason that the football team at the same school shouldn't be able to manage it.


As long as a kid stays eligible it doesn't matter why, or if, they leave...period. If the university/program can't keep kids eligible that goes to exactly what we are saying about it being a university issue...and when it comes to 6, like-minded, universities having the issue at an exponentially higher rate than any other group of universities it starts to speak to a much larger/broader issue.

Agreed, which is why I disagree with LFN and feel it is more a reflection on certain schools over-willingness to take in student-athletes that would have been better served getting up to speed with a year at a community college or some other college prepatory plan that does not involve them being on scholarship and instead gets them on the same page as the other incoming students. Florida A&M has a law school, Southern has doctoral level programs, they aren't NJIT. They shouldn't be taking in such a substantial number of borderline student-athletes that the whole team is at risk all-year, every-year.

[BEAR]

In Basketball, not so much. Three of the eight teams banned from the NCAA tournament next year based on low APR are from the SLC (UCA, Houston Baptist and Lamar) And a fourth is on the verge of losing post season eligibility (New Orleans).

I'm not of the popular opinion at UCA with this but UCA let the head coach and staff go and dismissed 11 of 12 players, brought in a new head coach and ALL NEW players who are C.C. transfers OR high school grads with 4.0 g.p.a.'s. It's almost like a whole new program. I like the change..but some are frustrated with "how" it was done.

[walliver]

If kids are dropping out for financial reasons because they only have partial scholarships, the real question is: "Why are these schools in Division I?"

A lot of smaller DI schools do not fully fund olympic sports, but generally fully fund men's basketball and women's basketball and typically fund football at a high level (non-scholarship leagues aside). If football or basketball players are not able to get full scholarships when needed, then the institution is not really committed to Division I athletics.

[clenz]

I was just using the 60 vs 10 as an example, I never even mentioned basketball, so you're being a bit picky there, aren't ya?xlolx It was more of a point that it's harder to maintain the APR of say the track & field team than it is to maintain the APR of the football team where it's spread over a considerably larger base, so if the track team is managing to keep the APR up, and the baseball team, and the softball team, and the women's equestrian team, etc who have a handful of kids getting a scholarship, then there's no reason that the football team at the same school shouldn't be able to manage it.



Agreed, which is why I disagree with LFN and feel it is more a reflection on certain schools over-willingness to take in student-athletes that would have been better served getting up to speed with a year at a community college or some other college prepatory plan that does not involve them being on scholarship and instead gets them on the same page as the other incoming students. Florida A&M has a law school, Southern has doctoral level programs, they aren't NJIT. They shouldn't be taking in such a substantial number of borderline student-athletes that the whole team is at risk all-year, every-year.
We are on the same page then. I just assumed basketball as it's the next "big sport" at universities.

Couple these issues with the fact that these schools ALREADY get an exception from the NCAA to have their APR standard 20 points lower than everyone elses standard.

I've pulled numbers in another thread, which panther88 (I believe) and I went back and forth on, but the average ACT/GPA/SAT for freshman enrollees at the vast majority of HBCUs is significantly lower than any other D1 university...to the point that a couple of them had average ACT scores of about 15 or 16 for incoming freshman which is 2-3 full points lower than the MINIMUM to get into most schools (every school I applied too [NAIA, D3, D2, D1] required at least an 18 to be considered). When your average is 15-16 you are taking kids who aren't qualified/ready for a 4 year institution. That isn't to say the won't be and that they aren't intelligent. It is saying that they are much better served in a CC setting getting to know the basics of how a college system/education works and maybe even getting a tech/vocational degree. That doesn't just go for the students being discussed - that goes for a majority of students, myself included. I had no business getting my first 4 year degree. Not because I couldn't handle it academically because I could. I had no business taking out that kind of loans to get a degree because I was told to get a 4 year degree. I should have gotten a 2 year tech degree with certifications.

[superman7515]

If kids are dropping out for financial reasons because they only have partial scholarships, the real question is: "Why are these schools in Division I?"

A key component of FCS is the ability to break scholarships into partial scholarships. I wouldn't say that alone shows a lack of committment to being Division 1, but the vast majority of FCS institutions are able to make up the resulting shortage through other financial aid means.


A lot of smaller DI schools do not fully fund olympic sports, but generally fully fund men's basketball and women's basketball and typically fund football at a high level (non-scholarship leagues aside). If football or basketball players are not able to get full scholarships when needed, then the institution is not really committed to Division I athletics.


Compare:

Total 2012 football expenditures by Grambling: $487,110 spread across 85 participants = $5,730.71 each

Compared to a random smattering of schools from other conferences...
Total 2012 football expenditures by North Dakota State: $872,100 spread across 117 participants = $7,453.85 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Eastern Washington: $684,293 spread across 92 participants = $7,437.97 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Delaware: $528,524 spread across 96 participants = $5,505.46 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Coastal Carolina: $613,270 spread across 107 participants = $5,731.50 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Wofford: $467,675 spread across 110 participants = $4,251.59 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Sam Houston State: $394,407 spread across 120 participants = $3,286.73 each

Now while these aren't exactly apples to apples considering that scholarships vary from place to place and not every student-athlete is getting a scholarship, nor is everyone getting the same amount on each team, etc, they aren't exactly falling so far behind in spending that the team should need to strike to get rid of the mold in the locker room.

[PAllen]

So according to Superman, a passing score is graduating half of your players. Will at least 50% of HBCU freshmen (who aren't student athletes) graduate? I would bet not. As I have said before, it's silly to expect student athletes to graduate with rates better than the student population at large. APR scores should be calculated relative to overall student retention at each institution.

Of course, that'll never happen because many of the P5 schools would then fare the worst even though they have enough money to create degree programs tailor-made to keep athletes eligible.

Nope, many (if not most) HBCUs graduate less than 10%.

[clenz]

Nope, many (if not most) HBCUs graduate less than 10%.
Doesn't that tell you that there are some HUGE issues with the ENTIRE university...and really HBCU system?

[superman7515]

Nope, many (if not most) HBCUs graduate less than 10%.

No HBCU in the nation graduates less than 10% of their students, at any level, whether offering sports or not. While the number aren't great for many, for you to claim the majority is such a low number is simply insulting.

Just using the data from the Division 1 schools, the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education lists the following graduation rates for black students (the univerisities total graduation rate at every school is actually higher, but since the focus of this traveshamockery seems to be the minority students, this is a better comparitive rate):
Howard University - 64%
Hampton - 56%
Jackson State - 43%
NC Central - 43%
Alabama A&M - 40%
North Carolina A&T - 40%
Bethune-Cookman - 38%
South Carolina St - 36%
Delaware St - 36%
Tennessee St - 36%
Alcorn St - 35%
Norfolk St - 35%
Florida A&M - 34%
Prairie View A&M - 33%
Savannah St - 32%
Maryland-Eastern Shore - 31%
Grambling - 28%
Southern - 28%
Mississippi Valley St - 26%
Alabama St - 25%
Arkansas Pine Bluff - 25%
Coppin St - 15%
Texas Southern - 11%

[walliver]

A key component of FCS is the ability to break scholarships into partial scholarships. I wouldn't say that alone shows a lack of committment to being Division 1, but the vast majority of FCS institutions are able to make up the resulting shortage through other financial aid means.




Compare:

Total 2012 football expenditures by Grambling: $487,110 spread across 85 participants = $5,730.71 each

Compared to a random smattering of schools from other conferences...
Total 2012 football expenditures by North Dakota State: $872,100 spread across 117 participants = $7,453.85 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Eastern Washington: $684,293 spread across 92 participants = $7,437.97 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Delaware: $528,524 spread across 96 participants = $5,505.46 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Coastal Carolina: $613,270 spread across 107 participants = $5,731.50 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Wofford: $467,675 spread across 110 participants = $4,251.59 each
Total 2012 football expenditures by Sam Houston State: $394,407 spread across 120 participants = $3,286.73 each

Now while these aren't exactly apples to apples considering that scholarships vary from place to place and not every student-athlete is getting a scholarship, nor is everyone getting the same amount on each team, etc, they aren't exactly falling so far behind in spending that the team should need to strike to get rid of the mold in the locker room.

FCS can give partial scholarships, but the number of recipients is limited to 85. All players beyond those 85 receive no football money. There are, of course, other sources of funding.

My point was, that if an athlete really can't afford tuition, committed institutions can find adequate funding to keep kids in school.

[superman7515]

FCS can give partial scholarships, but the number of recipients is limited to 85. All players beyond those 85 receive no football money. There are, of course, other sources of funding.

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting each player received a scholarship, simply that the amount of money spent per participating student-athlete wasn't dramatically different, yet the conditions on the ground are night and day. That's an institutional problem.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I was just using the 60 vs 10 as an example, I never even mentioned basketball, so you're being a bit picky there, aren't ya?xlolx It was more of a point that it's harder to maintain the APR of say the track & field team than it is to maintain the APR of the football team where it's spread over a considerably larger base, so if the track team is managing to keep the APR up, and the baseball team, and the softball team, and the women's equestrian team, etc who have a handful of kids getting a scholarship, then there's no reason that the football team at the same school shouldn't be able to manage it.



Agreed, which is why I disagree with LFN and feel it is more a reflection on certain schools over-willingness to take in student-athletes that would have been better served getting up to speed with a year at a community college or some other college prepatory plan that does not involve them being on scholarship and instead gets them on the same page as the other incoming students. Florida A&M has a law school, Southern has doctoral level programs, they aren't NJIT. They shouldn't be taking in such a substantial number of borderline student-athletes that the whole team is at risk all-year, every-year.

Some kids need more prep than others - like, say, the many first-in-the-family college students that attend HBCUs. And its not like all JuCos are the answer, either. Some JuCos crank out kids ill-equipped to go the rest of the way. All extra prep, incidentally, that comes out of peoples pockets and don't exist in regards to the APR.

Think Kentucky worries about this?

[superman7515]

Some kids need more prep than others...

Which is why they shouldn't be recruited in the first place.

[clenz]

Which is why they shouldn't be recruited in the first place.
You don't see these HBCUs turning away the tuition they can suck from these kids away though, do you?

[superman7515]

You don't see these HBCUs turning away the tuition they can suck from these kids away though, do you?

According to LFN, they aren't getting any tuition from them to start with. They're all dirt poor and are only there on the institutions dime and once that dries up, out the door they go. If so, then the instituition shouldn't be recruiting them for football, basketball, badminton, quidditch, whatever the hell else they play. You want to give them a shot even though they lack the skills needed to be successful at a community college, then recruit them for the school, not for the football team.

[Panther88]

Nope, many (if not most) HBCUs graduate less than 10%.

That's too broad of a brush, PAllen. There were (past tense) here and there and I'm certain since they implemented admission standards, those #s rose recently.

Again, one IS what one RECRUITs and RETAINs. I have my thoughts on the matter and can only speak on one: Prairie View A&M University. The APR situation and even GSR% is ridiculously sad, imho. For some of us grads, we never learned the meaning of the word "excuses." And I've certainly witnessed quite a bit of excuse making by a few who are of the purple/gold ilk, staffers as well as "grads."

Ironically, where I attended & grad'd grad school #1, I saw a little bit of the same stupidity (Ohio State) through a few on the football and basketball teams, during that time (late 80s). xsmhx I EXPECT and DEMAND the BEST of Prairie View A&M University. Zero excuses. There is ZERO excuse not to put forth effort and attempt to attract mentally, as well as physically, gifted individuals. Their mentality (some staffers) is one that imbues the pre civil rights era. xsmhx

[Panther88]

Which is why they shouldn't be recruited in the first place.

Admins/scum suckers are attempting to substantiate their positions @ the "universities," super. They have become what they recruit(ed). xreadx

In PVAMU's case, they should've been elated w/ mucho joy that honor-student 18 y/o's like self actually volunteered to attend and bring self-financing (individual academic schols) w/ our < 4yr grad capabilities to augment their then putrid GSR%s. xsmhx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The focus is on HBCU's, but the fact remains that SFPA and Sacred Heart (and four of the schools of the NEC in football over the life of the APR program) have suffered APR-related penalties as well. Will the same blame thrown about here at HBCUs also be thrown at them?

Hint: The two shared characteristics are a large number of partial scholarships... and athletic departments with less than $12 million overall expenses and revenues.

[superman7515]

Will the same blame thrown about here at HBCUs also be thrown at them?

Yes, absolutely. I'm an equal opportunity blame placer. If they weren't academically ready for the school, whether they were playing a sport or not, whether the school is a PWC or HBCU, whether it's located in The Bronx or the sticks, they should not be brought into the school, let alone the team.

For the score to fall below 910, whether it's at Sacred Heart or Mississippi Valley State or Ohio State or Johns Hopkins, that's more than half the team failing, and there's no way that they all suddenly had to go home to help milk the cows and feed the chickens because Ma came down with the consumption. If it is such an imperative that they continue to let in mediocre students simply because they are first-in-the-family to go to school, whatever school that may be, then enroll them in the school. But don't allow the individual on the team if their situation is so tenuous as to put the entire teams goals at risk.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, absolutely. I'm an equal opportunity blame placer. If they weren't academically ready for the school, whether they were playing a sport or not, whether the school is a PWC or HBCU, whether it's located in The Bronx or the sticks, they should not be brought into the school, let alone the team.

For the score to fall below 910, whether it's at Sacred Heart or Mississippi Valley State or Ohio State or Johns Hopkins, that's more than half the team failing, and there's no way that they all suddenly had to go home to help milk the cows and feed the chickens because Ma came down with the consumption. If it is such an imperative that they continue to let in mediocre students simply because they are first-in-the-family to go to school, whatever school that may be, then enroll them in the school. But don't allow the individual on the team if their situation is so tenuous as to put the entire teams goals at risk.

Or maybe, just maybe, partial scholarships have something to do with it?

[Panther88]

Yes, absolutely. I'm an equal opportunity blame placer. If they weren't academically ready for the school, whether they were playing a sport or not, whether the school is a PWC or HBCU, whether it's located in The Bronx or the sticks, they should not be brought into the school, let alone the team.

For the score to fall below 910, whether it's at Sacred Heart or Mississippi Valley State or Ohio State or Johns Hopkins, that's more than half the team failing, and there's no way that they all suddenly had to go home to help milk the cows and feed the chickens because Ma came down with the consumption. If it is such an imperative that they continue to let in mediocre students simply because they are first-in-the-family to go to school, whatever school that may be, then enroll them in the school. But don't allow the individual on the team if their situation is so tenuous as to put the entire teams goals at risk.

You are my hero. Rep points for you sir!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The focus is on HBCU's, but the fact remains that SFPA and Sacred Heart (and four of the schools of the NEC in football over the life of the APR program) have suffered APR-related penalties as well. Will the same blame thrown about here at HBCUs also be thrown at them?

Hint: The two shared characteristics are a large number of partial scholarships... and athletic departments with less than $12 million overall expenses and revenues.

Your tactic of trying to paint logical and fair discussion of the issue as having some racial undertones that you are somehow championing is pretty sickening dude.

Of course the arguments would apply to any institution. The fact that you even throw that out there says a little something about your perspective here.

I don't remember anyone here not being sickened by how the Grambling players were being treated and what they were being told to endure by the higher ups at Grambling and what I've seen here is no different. These problems are not stemming from the young adults they are stemming from those that should be guiding them to their next stage of life and those people are failing and should be held accountable for this and the unfortunate reality is that holding post season play as the achievement and penalty for good student success is one of the few ways to accomplish this.

[clenz]

Your tactic of trying to paint logical and fair discussion of the issue as having some racial undertones that you are somehow championing is pretty sickening dude.

Of course the arguments would apply to any institution. The fact that you even throw that out there says a little something about your perspective here.

I don't remember anyone here not being sickened by how the Grambling players were being treated and what they were being told to endure by the higher ups at Grambling and what I've seen here is no different. These problems are not stemming from the young adults they are stemming from those that should be guiding them to their next stage of life and those people are failing and should be held accountable for this and the unfortunate reality is that holding post season play as the achievement and penalty for good student success is one of the few ways to accomplish this.
White guilt is a hell of a thing.

[superman7515]

Or maybe, just maybe, partial scholarships have something to do with it?

Is there a widespread problem across Division 1 with baseball APR's? They have 11.7 scholarships generally spread across 27 student-athlete counters on a 35-man roster and it's almost impossible to get a full scholarship, yet the average baseball APR is 16 points higher than the average football APR. And that's with having fewer players to spread the problems across, 27 versus 85, where we have already established that one student having an issue on a roster of 27 is much more detrimental than one sudent having an issue on a roster of 85.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is there a widespread problem across Division 1 with baseball APR's? They have 11.7 scholarships generally spread across 27 student-athlete counters on a 35-man roster and it's almost impossible to get a full scholarship, yet the average baseball APR is 16 points higher than the average football APR. And that's with having fewer players to spread the problems across, 27 versus 85, where we have already established that one student having an issue on a roster of 27 is much more detrimental than one sudent having an issue on a roster of 85.

That's because D-I baseball teams are dropping like flies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_college_baseball_teams

Note how many have dropped baseball in the last twenty years.

Can't have an APR violation if you don't have a program.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Your tactic of trying to paint logical and fair discussion of the issue as having some racial undertones that you are somehow championing is pretty sickening dude.

I don't understand the unwillingness to accept the idea that partial scholarships have something to do with this. If anything I am trying to take race out of it by pointing out that the NEC schools hit with APR violations over the years split their scholarships and have tiny athletic departments. Those are two pretty strong correlations to the problems at the HBCU's, which also have problems with the APR. As for the SLC schools close to the level, I can't (and don't try) to explain that.

Supe and I are having a healthy debate on this, which I welcome.

[superman7515]

That's because D-I baseball teams are dropping like flies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_college_baseball_teams

Note how many have dropped baseball in the last twenty years.

Can't have an APR violation if you don't have a program.

Dropping like flies? 298 NCAA Division 1 baseball teams vs 235 NCAA Division 1 football teams. Yet the reason they don't have a problem is because they're cutting programs?

The last 20 years? So it's your professional opinion that Colgate dropped baseball in 1996 because they were afraid of the APR which went into affect in 2004?

Prairie View A&M baseball - 957
Prairie View A&M football - 908 and penalized

Same school, both programs offering partial scholarships, both programs offering the same institutional support, while baseball has a smaller margin of error vs football.

[Laker]

That's because D-I baseball teams are dropping like flies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_college_baseball_teams

Note how many have dropped baseball in the last twenty years.

Can't have an APR violation if you don't have a program.

Schools didn't drop baseball for APR reasons- they dropped them for Title IX reasons.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I don't understand the unwillingness to accept the idea that partial scholarships have something to do with this. If anything I am trying to take race out of it by pointing out that the NEC schools hit with APR violations over the years split their scholarships and have tiny athletic departments. Those are two pretty strong correlations to the problems at the HBCU's, which also have problems with the APR. As for the SLC schools close to the level, I can't (and don't try) to explain that.

Supe and I are having a healthy debate on this, which I welcome.

"Will the same blame thrown about here at HBCUs also be thrown at them?"
"Plantation mentality"

Sure isn't coming off that way LFN. I agree it's a good discussion just not sure why the buzzwords/phrases and so forth keep entering in.

[clenz]

I don't understand the unwillingness to accept the idea that partial scholarships have something to do with this. If anything I am trying to take race out of it by pointing out that the NEC schools hit with APR violations over the years split their scholarships and have tiny athletic departments. Those are two pretty strong correlations to the problems at the HBCU's, which also have problems with the APR. As for the SLC schools close to the level, I can't (and don't try) to explain that.

Supe and I are having a healthy debate on this, which I welcome.
Partial scholarships may have to do with them dropping out, I won't deny that.

HOWEVER, it would have ZERO affect on the APR if they were eligible/in good academic standing.

[clenz]

"Will the same blame thrown about here at HBCUs also be thrown at them?"
"Plantation mentality"

Sure isn't coming off that way LFN. I agree it's a good discussion just not sure why the buzzwords/phrases and so forth keep entering in.
http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i59/5/8/29/frabz-I-always-play-the-race-card-because-i-seek-absolution-for-my-whi-58defa.jpg

[superman7515]

I understand the oft-quoted mantra that HBCU's have an obligation to admit risky students, those who are the first in their family, those who have borderline grades, etc. While I disagree that they are obligated to do so, as some say, I don't condemn them for attempting to do that either. My condemnation is very narrowly focused for them or any other school that wishes to follow along those footsteps; you can let in any Tom, Dick, and Harry off the street if you so wish and do anything you can to educate them to the best of their abilities, but no one at any school, be that PWC or HBCU, D1 or D3, coast to coast, has any obligation to place them on the any athletic team. That problem is of your own creation.

Can any school accurately predict how well every student-athlete that is recruited will do in class? Absolutely not, nor am I suggesting otherwise. But more than half of the team? There is a deeper issue than just they don't have the finances. There is poor decision making in the recruiting and admittance process and it isn't the fault of the kid who is being recruited. Paying for a share of their college and a chance to play sports while doing so? No one should be blamed for accepting that option. But there is obviously a large segment that should have never been given that option to start with, whatever the instituion is, and I don't care how much money they do or do not have available to throw at the problem, it shouldn't have come up in the first place.

[citdog]

Super - we can't avoid dropping the word "plantation" in there, eh? Sounds like a lot of excuses.


lfn your yankee white guilt is showing. you better 'check your privilege' .

[TheRevSFA]

Schools didn't drop baseball for APR reasons- they dropped them for Title IX reasons.

Exactly

[major095]

Let me tell you about the mission of HBCU's. I know a kid, who didn't have the grades or ACT score to get in school, but he did. Had to start with the remedial classes. He failed, and had to sit out. Got back in, lost what piece of scholarship he had. It took him 10 years to graduate. If he'd tried to go to a 4 year school that was not a HBCU he would not have gotten in. Community college would have been his only bet. He is my brother. Got a B.S. in computer science just a week ago. HBCU's help kids like him. He didn't play sports, he was in the band. If he'd played football, he would have killed their rpi. He is what's HBCU's do well. Take kids who have no business there and work with them until they turn into something good. He'll be making more money than me in a year because, well, I'm a teacher.

[citdog]

Let me tell you about the mission of HBCU's. I know a kid, who didn't have the grades or ACT score to get in school, but he did. Had to start with the remedial classes. He failed, and had to sit out. Got back in, lost what piece of scholarship he had. It took him 10 years to graduate. If he'd tried to go to a 4 year school that was not a HBCU he would not have gotten in. Community college would have been his only bet. He is my brother. Got a B.S. in computer science just a week ago. HBCU's help kids like him. He didn't play sports, he was in the band. If he'd played football, he would have killed their rpi. He is what's HBCU's do well. Take kids who have no business there and work with them until they turn into something good. He'll be making more money than me in a year because, well, I'm a teacher.

Congrats to your Brother. Perhaps these schools should focus on helping students like him and just forego playing football.

[clenz]

Congrats to your Brother. Perhaps these schools should focus on helping students like him and just forego playing football.
Exactly this.

Also, there is nothing wrong with community colleges. He should have gone CC and gotten a 2 year computer science degree and had his employer pick up the costs of extra certifications.

That's great he was able to get his degree though xbowx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Congrats to your Brother. Perhaps these schools should focus on helping students like him and just foroego playing football.

I don't know if they need to forgo football but there should probably be some academic scholarship type creteria applied to the athletic scholly's to try and get beyond these problems.

I agree though that's a good tale and congrats to the brother for sticking with it and the school sticking with him to achieve.xthumbsupx

[BluBengal07]

10 pages.... all HBCUs are not the same.

[citdog]

10 pages......everyone is an expert on HBCUs, which they care less about.


Is it one of those 'black things' that people are no longer allowed to notice or discuss?

[BluBengal07]

Is it one of those 'black things' that people are no longer allowed to notice or discuss?

didn't meant it in that format. and this is not a race problem, it's an institutional problem. the originator of this thread chose to pick out the HBCUs for his focus. it's just interesting when there is a negative subject on a HBCU or a collection of them, there is mass response with multiple pages. when it's positive, it might gain 3 pages. just an observation. carry on.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

didn't meant it in that format. and this is not a race problem, it's an institutional problem. the originator of this thread chose to pick out the HBCUs for his focus. it's just interesting when there is a negative subject on a HBCU or a collection of them, there is mass response with multiple pages. when it's positive, it might gain 3 pages. just an observation. carry on.

You may only be noticing it in that regard Blu but trust me it happens in any situation. A negative thread about team or conference will have automatic traction.

I'd say the same thing you did about Montana threads for instance.

[major095]

Congrats to your Brother. Perhaps these schools should focus on helping students like him and just forego playing football.

Perhaps most of our schools should focus on helping students like him. Many of these kids, the only reason they finished high school was because of athletics. They live for friday night on the field or in the gym. sports is the only reason they stick around the school and as a bonus to themselves and everyone else, they get a high school diploma. Now they have an opportunity to keep playing the game they love and in doing so they get a degree. Many don't get it done to their own detriment, but many do. It is a noble mission and one that I hope alcorn never forsakes in the name of apr.

without athletics many of these kids would never complete high school. who does that benefit? consider this... 75% of all crime in the U.S. is committed by high school drop outs. so if high schools adopted the same position you've advocated, to drop athletics and focus on just education, those kids would never finish. they would, if you believe the numbers, fill the jails. if hbcu's dropped scholarship athletics many kids would never even enroll because (1) it cost money to go to college, & (2) they only ever showed up because of the lure of the game.

[Panther88]

Also, there is nothing wrong with community colleges. He should have gone CC and gotten a 2 year computer science degree and had his employer pick up the costs of extra certifications.



There has to be a thread of common dna between clenz and I somewhere :(. Those words are the gospel I preach to ALL kids who are seeking a 4-yr degree. I even use the cost factor to help them understand that attending a univ is quite expensive so why not go the cheaper route, earn another degree (Assocs), and then have your new employer pick up the tab to complete your next degree(s)?

Makes too much sense.

[Panther88]

Is it one of those 'black things' that people are no longer allowed to notice or discuss?

lol

[GAD]

No HBCU in the nation graduates less than 10% of their students, at any level, whether offering sports or not. While the number aren't great for many, for you to claim the majority is such a low number is simply insulting.

Just using the data from the Division 1 schools, the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education lists the following graduation rates for black students (the univerisities total graduation rate at every school is actually higher, but since the focus of this traveshamockery seems to be the minority students, this is a better comparitive rate):
Howard University - 64%
Hampton - 56%
Jackson State - 43%
NC Central - 43%
Alabama A&M - 40%
North Carolina A&T - 40%
Bethune-Cookman - 38%
South Carolina St - 36%
Delaware St - 36%
Tennessee St - 36%
Alcorn St - 35%
Norfolk St - 35%
Florida A&M - 34%
Prairie View A&M - 33%
Savannah St - 32%
Maryland-Eastern Shore - 31%
Grambling - 28%
Southern - 28%
Mississippi Valley St - 26%
Alabama St - 25%
Arkansas Pine Bluff - 25%
Coppin St - 15%
Texas Southern - 11%
Numbers can sometimes be misleading, a lot of kids leave but the return later to complete there degree
just because some don't complete there education in four or five straight years does not mean that they don't graduate. It just won't count towards those numbers


Here is an article about a friend of mine who did just that
http://theadvocate.com/sports/preps/6161392-123/cleotha-johnigan-new-pointe-coupee

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let me tell you about the mission of HBCU's. I know a kid, who didn't have the grades or ACT score to get in school, but he did. Had to start with the remedial classes. He failed, and had to sit out. Got back in, lost what piece of scholarship he had. It took him 10 years to graduate. If he'd tried to go to a 4 year school that was not a HBCU he would not have gotten in. Community college would have been his only bet. He is my brother. Got a B.S. in computer science just a week ago. HBCU's help kids like him. He didn't play sports, he was in the band. If he'd played football, he would have killed their rpi. He is what's HBCU's do well. Take kids who have no business there and work with them until they turn into something good. He'll be making more money than me in a year because, well, I'm a teacher.

Congrats to you and your brother, and thanks for putting this in a way that I cannot.