Argument for USD if they go undefeated

[gobucknell06]

1. Either the 1-AA playoffs are fair or they are not fair.xcoffeex

2. If they are not fair, then everyone should be pissed off and yell.:bawling:

2. If they are fair, then everyone [unless conference restricted] has a chance to be in them.:thumbsup:

3. If everyone [unless conference restricted] has a chance to be in them, then there is something that every team can do given their schedule to be in the playoffs.

4. If there is something that every team can do given their schedule to be in the playoffs, then every team that is undefeated and wins by wide margins make the playoffs.

5. Therefore, either everyone should be pissed off and yell or every team that is undefeated and wins by wide margins makes the playoffs.

Constructive dilemma and hypothetical syllogism. (propositional calculus)

Look: :bang:

Some guarding:
(1) I did not go to USD and I don't particularly even like the institution.:eyebrow:

(2) I am not here to entertain fallacious ad hominum arguments against Jim Harbaugh. I don't care about him.:nono:

(3) If you are to make a genuine response, then you must reject one of my premises.:read:

[*****]

uh, USD is "conference restricted" and schedule restricted... for a first post .... well, read before posting...

[PMB4Life]

I would only like to add that you have two number twos. Other than that, I don't really have much of a constructive nature to add.:D

[GeauxColonels]

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[LeopardFan04]

hmmm...I don't think they have an argument...there are logistical reasons which would exclude them from the playoffs (this has obviously been discussed in one or two or 16 other threads as well)

nevertheless, welcome gobucknell...good to see another PLer aboard...

[*****]

hahahahahaa

[gobucknell06]

It's my understanding that the Gridiron Classic and UC Davis are nominal exercises in scheduling, and that USD will turn them down to play in the 1-AA playoffs.

[MrTitleist]

Oh look... a quarter...

[TheValleyRaider]

1. Either the 1-AA playoffs are fair or they are not fair.xcoffeex

You'll get arguments about this every year.:cool:


2. If they are not fair, then everyone should be pissed off and yell.:bawling:

See above.


2. If they are fair, then everyone [unless conference restricted] has a chance to be in them.:thumbsup:

True, if we assume 1 and 2 are true (we will for the time being)


3. If everyone [unless conference restricted] has a chance to be in them, then there is something that every team can do given their schedule to be in the playoffs.

Almost. Here's where you start to lose it. The SWAC, per se, is not restricted as a conference, as every SWAC team that is not Alabama State, Grambling, Southern, or in the Title Game is eligible for an at-large. However, this does rule out the aforementioned teams, who have scheduled themselves out of the Playoffs. Since you started the discussion to be about San Diego, let's consider their schedule. On top of playing in the Gridiron Classic (which they would if they went undefeated, thereby winning the Pioneer League) which already counts as a postseason event, they scheduled another game the week afterward (coinciding with the First Round of the Playoffs) against UC-Davis. Now, I've heard the argument on the board that games can be rescheduled and contracts with the GC can be broken. However, I have to say I will believe it when I see it. :twocents:


4. If there is something that every team can do given their schedule to be in the playoffs, then every team that is undefeated and wins by wide margins make the playoffs.

There I will also have to disagree. While the players themselves are at the mercy of the schedule, the team is judged by that schedule. In the case of San Diego, they have scheduled matchups against Azuza Pacific (NAIA school) and Dixie State (D-II) in addition to Yale, Drake, and UC-Davis, which can all be compared to other teams around the nation. Drake was hammered by Northern Iowa, a bubble team right now IMHO, so the best USD can do would be to match a bubble team there. Yale has wins against some of the Patriot League's best, but what's that worth this year, really? Finally, there's UC-Davis, a pretty good team. Unfortunately, they won't see UCD until after the playoff field is selected, at which point they would at best be 10-0, with another win against the NEC's best. This might be worth comparing to others, but until we see who it is, no comparison can really be made.


5. Therefore, either everyone should be pissed off and yell or every team that is undefeated and wins by wide margins makes the playoffs.

Well, that's going to happen anyway :cool: :)

By the way, welcome to the board for another Bucknellian:hurray: Always good to see the Patriot League getting well-represented all-around.

[GOTOREROS]

Well, we USD fans can't be blamed for this thread - maybe the 17 others but not this one! :hurray:

GOTOREROS

P.S. I think we discussed in one of the other 17 threads that USD would accept an invitation to play in this years Super Bowl in Miami as the NCAA only allows you to participate in one post-season activity. Harbaugh has already accepted the NFL's invitation.....so we really aren't interested in the I-AA playoffs. We need to think BIGGER.....:D

[*****]

It's my understanding that the Gridiron Classic and UC Davis are nominal exercises in scheduling, and that USD will turn them down to play in the 1-AA playoffs.That is wrong. You can't cancel a game on a team during the season without reason given to the NCAA. I don't think "we may be chosen for the playoffs" is a reason and that's if USD wins the PFL and breaks a contract to play in the GC.

WHAT IS WRONG HERE????

Stop it now folks. USD will not be in the playoffs this year.

[gobucknell06]

I expected (4) to be the most controversial premise. I did, though, anticipate that some people just might reject the fairness premise that we should all yell if it's not fair...that it is just about money, and that we should not care.

[gobucknell06]

The argument is normative. Re-read the conclusion. It does not make the claim that USD will be in the playoffs. Please try to be less cavalier in the future.

[GOTOREROS]

That is wrong. You can't cancel a game on a team during the season without reason given to the NCAA. I don't think "we may be chosen for the playoffs" is a reason and that's if USD wins the PFL and breaks a contract to play in the GC.

WHAT IS WRONG HERE????

Stop it now folks. USD will not be in the playoffs this year.

But you could "re-schedule" a game. December 2nd is open for both USD and Cal Poly...

Now the GIC is another issue - but like others have said, it really isn't realistic to think USD will get a bid so that game is a moot point. There might be a technical way for USD to participate in the playoffs but the reality is that due to the schedule we won't get a bid even if undefeated. And that is OK - you have to start somewhere...

GOTOREROS

[gobucknell06]

Although I did see USD play in person against Yale. They are ungodly. I suppose that it is my motivation.

[GOTOREROS]

Although I did see USD play in person against Yale. They are ungodly. I suppose that it is my motivation.

Is "Bucknell" a suburb of San Diego I was not aware of? :D

GOTOREROS

[gobucknell06]

Relax. I'm simply concerned with justice. I'm no USD lover. I just have to admit when I've seen an unbelievable 1-AA team. The offense is stacked at HB, QB, TE, and WR.

[gobucknell06]

Oh, and USD is 1st in the nation in total offense and total defense. The QB is 2nd in total offense and projected to go into the NFL.

[GOTOREROS]

Relax. I'm simply concerned with justice. I'm no USD lover. I just have to admit when I've seen an unbelievable 1-AA team. The offense is stacked at HB, QB, TE, and WR.

GoBucknell-

Our agreement was $10 for each compliment with a max of 7 compliments per day. Please don't breach our contract....we are a non-scholarship school....KEEP HOPE ALIVE!

GOTOREROS

[*****]

... There might be a technical way for USD to participate in the playoffs... ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

You'd have to break two contracts and trusts plus count on the NCAA to look past it to select USD. Really, that is not how you want your first playoff game to be known.

Read my replies, not what you want to read gobucknell06.

BTW, San Diego currently plays I-AA, not 1-AA (attention my good person).

Also, USD is not top in total defense... I think CP has a claim there downstaters. Man is this a planned house of cards?
(I'll provide sources for my claims, something that is expected on this discussion board... http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/natlRank.jsp?year=2006&div=5&rpt=IAA_teamtotdef&site=org )

[gobucknell06]

I'm fully aware of the nomenclature, thank you. And while we are being semantic crybabies, I'm not going to break contracts. I will never play in a playoff game.

You see, my beef was with your misinterpretation of my broad claim. It had a point.

[GOTOREROS]

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

You'd have to break two contracts and trusts plus count on the NCAA to look past it to select USD. Really, that is not how you want your first playoff game to be known.

That's why I used the term "technically". I didn't say "realistically" - two different terms. Just because I said "technically" doesn't mean I think it will happen in a million years. I am simply alluding that in a billion, million, gillion to one odds it could happen. Not trying to parse words, just being specific...yes, it would not be a great way to get in but that's not the point. Simply, saying there is a way - although as you said not the way you want to get in. What's wrong with saying that? I am not saying it will happen, jeez....:confused:

GOTOREROS

[gobucknell06]

Again, what I'm saying is USD should be in the playoffs if they win out. Geez.

Suppressed belief: If USD goes undefeated, they should be invited.

I did not say (GUARDING for the future): USD will be in the playoffs. USD will win the playoffs. I like Jim Harbaugh. Marry me.

[Mr. C]

Cal Poly is first in total defense on the NCAA site, with Iona second and San Diego third (based on average yards allowed per game).

[redbirdtim]

Are your stats that they are #1 in the nation counting the games against these schools...

NAIA Azuza Pacific
DII Dixie State
Butler...the same Butler team that lost 31-10 to DIII Albion College of the Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association?
Valpo...the same Valpo team that lost 39-20 to NAIA Trinity International.

You played Yale, an alright team and Davidson...but honestly, you play a schedule that's weaker than St. Mary's School for the Blind.

Once you are able to play a schedule that doesn't look like it's DIII or NAIA then you will get respect. Put a top 10 team up against this schedule and they will average wins of about 70-7.

[*****]

That's why I used the term "technically". I didn't say "realistically"...I am saying realistically and technically. That's all. Please be happy that you have a shot at what your school believes is a great opportunity, the Gridiron Classic.

[gobucknell06]

It's my team!!!!!!!!!:bang:

AGH!

[*****]

Again, what I'm saying is USD should be in the playoffs if they win out. Geez.
Suppressed belief: If USD goes undefeated, they should be invited.
I did not say (GUARDING for the future): USD will be in the playoffs. USD will win the playoffs. I like Jim Harbaugh. Marry me.WHO ARE YOU???? You come on the top community of I-AA, spelling the name wrong, saying USD should be considered for the playoffs even though they have two contracts they would (possibly) need to break to get there. You must be Jimbo being jocular. xlolx

[gobucknell06]

For God's sakes, I don't even like USD!

[gobucknell06]

And I think they would beat Furman, for instance.

[*****]

It's my team!!!!!!!!!:bang:
AGH!Then YOU VOTED FOR THE GRIDIRON CLASSIC AND THE UC DAVIS GAME.

[gobucknell06]

Umm....no Mr. Smug. I'm just really into justice.

Even if justice is a b**** and hands it to USD in the playoffs. It's only fair. And fairness is part of justice.

[usdtoreros]

Put a top 10 team up against this schedule and they will average wins of about 70-7.

They wouldn't average 70-7 because they don't have Harbaugh coaching them. From what I have read from the other threads, Harbaugh has been "running up the score" and no other team would dare do that.

By the way, anyone that was at USD's last game would know that they could've scored 100 if they really wanted to. It was 28-0 after the first quarter and they didn't run a full-throttle offense after that.

It is true there is no perfect way to compare the stats of teams with totally different schedules, but any way you look at it, USD has been impressive this year. Also, if anyone has seen USD play in person, I don't think they could argue that USD couldn't compete against any of the top teams.

[gobucknell06]

I think they could beat Furman, for instance. But does it matter? Is there no one who honestly cares enough about an undefeated team not making the playoffs. Seriously, that's so I-Aish.

[*****]

Moderators, kill this thread please. We have a runaway mouth here...

[*****]

Umm....no Mr. Smug. I'm just really into justice.

Even if justice is a b**** and hands it to USD in the playoffs. It's only fair. And fairness is part of justice.justice would not let you break TWO contracts you agreed to... Mr. Smack.

[gobucknell06]

And that is where we disagree, Mr. Ad Hominum. I happen to think that the I-AA playoffs are the crown of 1-AA. The other games function only in order to serve the greater good of the playoffs.

[*****]

WHAT PART OF THE RULES DO YOU ALL NOT UNDERSTAND?

Stop this "USD for the playoffs" stuff and respect the contracts in place. Respect the Gridiron Classic. Respect the schedule you submitted to the NCAA.

[gobucknell06]

HOLD THE BS.

CS IS THE BEST.

[*****]

HOLD THE BS.
CS IS THE BEST.cool! :nod: STAND AND DELIVER, BEAT YOUR SCHED! They can say you are worse but until they schedule you they can't prove it.

[usdtoreros]

HOLD THE BS.

CS IS THE BEST.

Ah, but he was older then. He's younger now.

[gobucknell06]

I DONT PLAY FOR FREAKING USD!!!!!!!! I don't LIKE THEM! STOP!

[*****]

I DONT PLAY FOR FREAKING USD!!!!!!!! I don't LIKE THEM! STOP!xidiotx xidiotx Freakish xidiotx xidiotx xcoffeex C'mon USD fans, show us your great side (as has been exhibited by some already).

[Tailbone]

1. Either the 1-AA playoffs are fair or they are not fair.xcoffeex

2. If they are not fair, then everyone should be pissed off and yell.:bawling:

2. If they are fair, then everyone has a chance to be in them.:thumbsup:

Fairness is a subjective assessment. There is no absolutely objective criteria (under the rules of selection) by which a participant selection might be made.
See NCAA rules below.


3. If everyone [unless conference restricted] has a chance to be in them, then there is something that every team can do given their schedule to be in the playoffs.

4. If there is something that every team can do given their schedule to be in the playoffs, then every team that is undefeated and wins by wide margins make the playoffs.

Every team has equal access provided the institutions represented by the teams meet certain requirements. whether or not they wish to participate is a voluntary decision and requires meeting the established (and agreed upon) criteria.
For criteria, see NCAA guidelines below.


5. Therefore, either everyone should be pissed off and yell or every team that is undefeated and wins by wide margins makes the playoffs.

WRONG! Every premise except the first is fallacious and the first requires a subjective assessment of what is "fair" and what is not. Since the fundamental premise cannot be objectively established, there can be no meaningful, or logically consistent conclusion.


(3) If you are to make a genuine response, then you must reject one of my premises.:read:

I reject them all.



Championship Selection

[Reference: Bylaws 31.01.2, 31.01.3 and 31.3 in the NCAA Manual.]

At-large teams shall be selected by the Division I-AA football committee, assisted by
four regional advisory committees that serve in an advisory capacity only.

The following principles shall apply when selecting at-large teams:

1. [u]The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to complete the bracket;

2. There is no limit to the number of teams the committee may select from one conference;

3. [b]The won-lost record of a team will be scrutinized to determine a team’s strength of schedule; however, less than seven Division I wins may place a team in jeopardy of not being selected;

4. The committee may give more consideration to those teams that have played all Division I opponents; and

5. If the team of a committee member is under consideration, the member may not vote for the team being considered and will not be in the room when a vote is taken.



Every debate regarding USD's participation in the play-offs ultimately comes down to whether or not the Torero's are worthy of a berth. Ultimately, one has to answer no - based on accepted criteria.

But don't worry, anything is possible. Selection committee gaffs are an annual phenomenon. However unworthy USD might be, the possibility of a berth does exist....as unfair as that might be.

[UMass922]

3. If everyone [unless conference restricted] has a chance to be in them, then there is something that every team can do given their schedule to be in the playoffs.

I reject this premise. Given the very limited number of at-large spots--eight available for the 100+ remaining teams after the automatic qualifiers--many teams' hopes for a playoff bid depend not just on what they do with their own schedule but also on what other teams do with theirs. Selecting at-large teams is an inevitably comparative process.

By the time the playoff field is selected, San Diego will have played eight games against Division I opponents. This means that that greatest number of D-I wins San Diego could possibly have is eight. Typically, teams with fewer than eight D-I wins do not get selected. The selection committee uses seven wins as its rule-of-thumb bare-minimum number of wins for a team to be considered for at-large selection--but seven-win teams pretty much never get selected, because there are almost always enough quality eight-win teams available. In fact, there are usually more than enough--so even eight-win teams often get left out. That is to say, most eight-win teams can be considered squarely on the bubble. Accordingly, the best San Diego can hope to do with its schedule is put itself on the bubble.

This, I think, is realistically how the committee would view San Diego: not as an undefeated team (even though that would technically be true) but as one eight-win team among many others. At that point, then, the committee would compare the strength of San Diego's eight wins with those of other potential-at large teams--"The won-lost record of a team will be scrutinized to determine a team’s strength of schedule." No bones about it: strength of schedule matters. And I imagine that there are not likely to be any eight-win teams with schedules weaker than San Diego's. In fact, since the selection committee does consider seven-win teams, it's highly likely that they would give a seven-win team with a significantly more challenging schedule than San Diego's much more consideration for an at-large birth.

Since ultimately you're looking at this issue as a matter of justice, I'll put my conclusion in those terms: I do not find it unjust for an eight-win team with a comparatively weak schedule to be denied an at-large berth to the playoffs. What I would find unjust is San Diego getting chosen over a team that earned the same number of wins against a significantly more challenging schedule.

[UMass922]

Blah. My comment was way too wordy. Let me state it more concisely:

--For the purposes of playoff consideration, San Diego would be an eight-win team.

--Eight wins has proven to be about where the "bubble" lies for potential at-large teams: some eight-win teams make the playoffs, some don't.

--Win totals being equal, priority should be given to those teams that won their eight games against the toughest competition.

--There is nothing unjust about an eight-win team with a relatively weak schedule being denied a playoff berth.

[LeopardFan04]

good argument, UMass...

[AggiePride]

It's as if we don't exist when people create these stupid threads.

[Death Dealer]

GB06, you're an idiot. Spewing useless jargon doesn't bring validity to your argument. "fair"? What is that exactly? Define it in anyway that does not rely upon subjective interpretation. You can try, but you can't. It really sucks when a USD fan has to portray themselves as something they aren't and add further to the endless and useless threads on this same old subject.

Everyone will tell you that I have been championing USD as a legit program that has a bright future, but I have to step up and say the endless threads have to stop. Ralph, is it possible to restrict the number of threads about a certain topic on this board? If not, the mods should consider instituting a rule to that effect.

Your entire argument is pointless as has been stated and proven ad nauseum.

By the way, there is about as much chance of a monkey flying out of your ass as there is of USD beating any member of the SOCON, much less FU.xlolx :nod: xlolx :nod:

[USDFAN_55]

GB06, you're an idiot. Spewing useless jargon doesn't bring validity to your argument. "fair"? What is that exactly? Define it in anyway that does not rely upon subjective interpretation. You can try, but you can't. It really sucks when a USD fan has to portray themselves as something they aren't and add further to the endless and useless threads on this same old subject.

Everyone will tell you that I have been championing USD as a legit program that has a bright future, but I have to step up and say the endless threads have to stop. Ralph, is it possible to restrict the number of threads about a certain topic on this board? If not, the mods should consider instituting a rule to that effect.

Your entire argument is pointless as has been stated and proven ad nauseum.

By the way, there is about as much chance of a monkey flying out of your ass as there is of USD beating any member of the SOCON, much less FU.xlolx :nod: xlolx :nod:

By the way
Hey man, don't let it get to you. The true fans of I-AA football know what the reality is on this subject. Try and ignore the lame playoff talks, and maybe we can all talk about more of the future of USD football and it's implication into the GWFC.

[gobucknell06]

Yeah. Again. Not a USD fan. Don't like USD and never will.

And I bet the Furman fellow thought that Coastal would never beat Furman either.

USD would beat Coastal. Hands down.

[BigApp]

ahhhh..........San Diego....lovely place....warm days......light breezes...San Diego.....I like San Diego....San Diego....
: retard :

[Death Dealer]

Again. Not a USD fan. Don't like USD and never will.

You keep saying that, but noone believes you.xidiotx

[Death Dealer]

USD would beat Coastal. Hands down.

Don't cast stones. Despite Harbaugh's delusion's of grandeur, there are many programs out there who can play quite a good game of football. Thigpen and Simpson would pick you guys apart...then you'd see what a real I-AA QB can do.

[usdtoreros]

Blah. My comment was way too wordy. Let me state it more concisely:

--For the purposes of playoff consideration, San Diego would be an eight-win team.

--Eight wins has proven to be about where the "bubble" lies for potential at-large teams: some eight-win teams make the playoffs, some don't.

--Win totals being equal, priority should be given to those teams that won their eight games against the toughest competition.

--There is nothing unjust about an eight-win team with a relatively weak schedule being denied a playoff berth.

You are going to honestly tell me that the committee will look at an 8-0 team as being identical to an 8-3 or 8-4 team. That's a horrible argument. If losses didn't matter, every team would just schedule as many games as allowed. I am not saying that USD will or should get in. I just don't think your argument is very strong.

[OrneryAggie]

Yeah. Again. Not a USD fan. Don't like USD and never will.

And I bet the Furman fellow thought that Coastal would never beat Furman either.

USD would beat Coastal. Hands down.

disclaimer, Not an SDSU fan. Don't like SDSU and never will. But..

South Dakota St woud rock U San Diego's world. Hands down and only playing left handed.

[DUPFLFan]

It won't matter in about three days...

[Death Dealer]

Hey man, don't let it get to you. The true fans of I-AA football know what the reality is on this subject. Try and ignore the lame playoff talks, and maybe we can all talk about more of the future of USD football and it's implication into the GWFC.

Hey USDF55, hope you're doing well. Your right, I know. Thanks for the reality check. :thumbsup: Sorry for the dig at your boys...had to respond to that smack against my 'dins.:nod: Gotta stand proud for your team and conference!:hurray:

[PMB4Life]

gobucknell06 is invariably an understated and pristine genius. His expansive vocabulary is overwhemingly indicative of an underlying anamoly in his brain, sending all others into an aberrational sense of panic and morosity.

Translation: big words don't make you smart. Knock it off.

[UMass922]

If losses didn't matter, every team would just schedule as many games as allowed.

As far as I know, pretty much every team does schedule as many games as allowed. The Ivies only schedule ten, I believe, and there may be a handful of others who do, too. But every team that wants a shot at the playoffs schedules the maximum number of regular-season games, which I believe the NCAA caps at eleven. In years when it's been twelve, most teams have scheduled twelve.

If simply going undefeated counted for much, every team would try to load its OOC schedule with as many weak D-II, D-III, and NAIA teams as possible. They would give themselves as few D-I games as possible in order to maximize their potential of going undefeated in D-I.

But it doesn't work that way. Scheduling as few D-I games as possible doesn't increase your margin for error; rather it substantially decreases your margin for error.

Others here have posted the selection guidelines that make this and several things clear:

--Wins against non- D-I teams are disregarded.

--The raw number of D-I wins matters, regardless of the number of accompanying losses: a team that goes 6-0 against D-I opponents will not be considered seriously for at-large selection. A team that goes 7-4 against D-I opponents will.

--Strength of schedule matters. Schedules of potential at-large teams are scrutinized and compared. The committee will ask itself if other potential at-large teams could have gone undefeated against San Diego's schedule, and vice versa.

11-0 against a weak D-I schedule would be one thing. 8-0 against a strong D-I schedule would be one thing. But 8-0 against a weak D-I schedule is something else--something that I don't think would hold up well against teams that have gone 8-1, 8-2, or 8-3 against much stronger schedules. An 8-0 San Diego would get at-large consideration. I'm sure the committee would take the team seriously. But I don't think they would ultimately select them.

[JohnStOnge]

The I-AA playoffs are not fair when it comes to at large bids. That's just the way it is.

Fair would be setting up a quantiative system before the season and saying that the top 8 teams according to that system that don't get automatic bids get the at large bids. That would mean that, at the end of the season, there would be no subjective judgement by a committee. Everybody would know what the system was before hand and the chips would fall where they may.

Of course, the fairest thing would be to give every I-AA conference an automatic bid and combine that with a quantitative system established before the season for at large bids. Then every team except for independents would control its own destiny. Yes, some conferences are tougher than others. But if you're in a conference and don't get the automatic bid well...you had a chance and just didn't get it done.

[USDFAN_55]

Hey USDF55, hope you're doing well. Your right, I know. Thanks for the reality check. :thumbsup: Sorry for the dig at your boys...had to respond to that smack against my 'dins.:nod: Gotta stand proud for your team and conference!:hurray:
Of course you do. I think some people here need to realize that there is a board specifically for smack talk.