Towson lost money in Playoffs

[Sammy94]

http://www.thetowerlight.com/2014/02/cover/comment-page-1/

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Towson ended up bringing more people along on the trip. “There were things we added to the experience to make sure all of our kids, the football student athletes, all of them went…we brought anyone else who was hurt. If they were part of the team, we were taking
them,” Leonard said. “The coaches’ families were there. We wanted to make sure anyone who deserved to be there was there.”



It's always funny to see things like this. "We wanted to add up extra expenses for our school until the time came to pay the bill."

[BisonFan02]

Since when did they HAVE to bid to host a game since they were a seed? It would look bad, but they don't have to pay the minimum bid to host do they?

[clenz]

Since when did they HAVE to bid to host a game since they were a seed? It would look bad, but they don't have to pay the minimum bid to host do they?
Bids are placed pretty early.

They didn't know they'd be a seed when they bid.

HOWEVER, I don't know that the NCAA takes the bid amount from a seed, though they still take their rather large cut.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm surprised Towson outbid Lehigh in 2011. The Tigers must have known there would be A LOT of interest in the game, it did ultimately sell out. It certainly helped that Lehigh brought 3k or so fans. I was very surprised how poor the crowd was for their game against Fordham this year. The Rams were another former PL foe who has solid name recognition in the region.

Temple and Towson share some traits. Historically, both were commuter schools who drew students from their respective metro areas. Only in the last 10 years has Towson's identity start to change. Part of the process was dropping "State" from their name.

[LoneStar]

http://www.thetowerlight.com/2014/02/cover/comment-page-1/

Not sure why this would surprise anyone considering the travel to Illinois, Washington and Texas.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Not sure why this would surprise anyone considering the travel to Illinois, Washington and Texas.

The NCAA pays for it anyway up to the point they described in the article.

[Missingnumber7]

I think schools like Montana, Montana State and NDSU that sell out regularly no matter what time of year the game is are about the only ones left in FCS that benefit any more. EIU didn't get any help with the weather for their home game. And the EWU game didn't look very full. I wasn't overly impressed with attendance for alot of these playoff games. And people complain that they aren't televised...well they aren't televised because the stands aren't full. Fill the stands and your games will be on TV. Demand created=publicity for team. Schools complaining about not making any money by making the playoffs are making the same arguement for what ruined D2 Football and regionalization. And I'm not going to complain to loudly right now because NDSU has played in such few road playoff games. But I struggle to see how you lose money when you only play one home playoff game this year and the NCAA pays all your travel costs for any legitimate attendees for road games. Maybe leaving the lights on at the practice facility is to expensive?

[Bisonator]

It's always funny to see things like this. "We wanted to add up extra expenses for our school until the time came to pay the bill."

Exactly.

Everything is going to be a losing proposition if you don't have fan support to begin with. I mean if you can't sell out your own stadium for a playoff game and make money you are doing something wrong!

[Wallace]

I think schools like Montana, Montana State and NDSU that sell out regularly no matter what time of year the game is are about the only ones left in FCS that benefit any more. EIU didn't get any help with the weather for their home game. And the EWU game didn't look very full. I wasn't overly impressed with attendance for alot of these playoff games. And people complain that they aren't televised...well they aren't televised because the stands aren't full. Fill the stands and your games will be on TV. Demand created=publicity for team. Schools complaining about not making any money by making the playoffs are making the same arguement for what ruined D2 Football and regionalization. And I'm not going to complain to loudly right now because NDSU has played in such few road playoff games. But I struggle to see how you lose money when you only play one home playoff game this year and the NCAA pays all your travel costs for any legitimate attendees for road games. Maybe leaving the lights on at the practice facility is to expensive?

Those schools you mentioned do not sell out every game, those who do not play in a dome.

[IBleedYellow]

How does some of this math add up?

Correct me if I am wrong but I'm like 99% sure that the NCAA covers all travel during the playoffs, am I wrong?

"Between trips to Eastern Illinois and Eastern Washington for playoff games and to Frisco, Texas. for the National Championship game, Towson lost $50,000, according to Director of Athletics Tim Leonard."

http://www.thetowerlight.com/2014/02/cover/

EDIT: Another GOLDEN quote.

“For FCS, the NCAA puts on the game, but in FBS, the bowl games [pay for the expenses],” Leonard said. “Either way, it’s not as profitable of a venture as people think it is.”

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yeah, there was a thread on this same article last week I think where we were discussing the matter. I'll see if I can find it and merge it and you can check it out.

[IBleedYellow]

Whomp, my bad.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The poor attendance for their game against Fordham had to of hurt. I'm still trying to figure out why the crowd was so bad. Fordham was highly ranked all season, they're a known name in the Mid-Atlantic and were a former conference foe. That game should have had 8k+ imo. The game against Lehigh in 2011 was an advanced sellout iirc.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Whomp, my bad.

Merged with the other one. I can see why you skipped over it cuz the title wasn't too specific. Check out the early posts cuz it went right where you were headed with the discussion.

[AmsterBison]

The poor attendance for their game against Fordham had to of hurt. I'm still trying to figure out why the crowd was so bad. Fordham was highly ranked all season, they're a known name in the Mid-Atlantic and were a former conference foe. That game should have had 8k+ imo. The game against Lehigh in 2011 was an advanced sellout iirc.

I'm sure it hurt the budget, but the AD specifically complained about the road trips even though the NCAA gave them enough money to get their team to the game and back; Towson's AD just chose to spend money bringing more people and now is acting like he thinks the NCAA should have covered that expense. Takes a lot of gall to do that.

Maybe he should send a thank you note to NDSU for saving him the cost of buying a set of championship rings.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm sure it hurt the budget, but the AD specifically complained about the road trips even though the NCAA gave them enough money to get their team to the game and back; Towson's AD just chose to spend money bringing more people and now is acting like he thinks the NCAA should have covered that expense. Takes a lot of gall to do that.

Maybe he should send a thank you note to NDSU for saving him the cost of buying a set of championship rings.

xlolx

I remember Lakes griping about the band not getting to go to the NC on either the schools dime or the NCAA's dime back when the first one came around and I couldn't believe it from him so from the AD this is a real head scratcher.

[IBleedYellow]

The NCAA just needs to be happy that schools like Montana and Montana State actually foot the bill every year for the rest of the playoffs.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The NCAA just needs to be happy that schools like Montana and Montana State actually foot the bill every year for the rest of the playoffs.

and NDSU now.xthumbsupx

[BisonFan02]

and NDSU now.xthumbsupx

http://cdn.weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/christian-bale-upvote-gif.gif

[UAalum72]

How does some of this math add up?

Correct me if I am wrong but I'm like 99% sure that the NCAA covers all travel during the playoffs, am I wrong?

Only up to 60 players and 130 travel party (145 for Champ. game), up to $130 per diem, not including local transportation.
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2013-14%2BD1%2Bchamps%2Btrav%2Bpolicies.pdf

[lionsrking2]

If at the end of the day, the entire playoffs, including the NC game, only cost Towson $50k then it's a huge bargain. They got more than 50k worth of free advertising and publicity for their football program, as well as their school. If they just get five walk-ons to come to Towson, who otherwise wouldn't, that would easily make up the difference.

[Tribe93]

I think schools like Montana, Montana State and NDSU that sell out regularly no matter what time of year the game is are about the only ones left in FCS that benefit any more.

What else is there to do in Montana and N. Dakota between October and January besides hunt/fish, split firewood, and attend the one sporting event within a day's drive? Of course people attend the only attraction in town. Montana is two states removed from the nearest professional team and N. Dakota is 3 1/2 hours from Minneapolis. You can only find interest in Bonanzaville USA once or maybe twice in a calendar year, right?

[BisonFan02]

What else is there to do in Montana and N. Dakota between October and January besides hunt/fish, split firewood, and attend the one sporting event within a day's drive? Of course people attend the only attraction in town. Montana is two states removed from the nearest professional team and N. Dakota is 3 1/2 hours from Minneapolis. You can only find interest in Bonanzaville USA once or maybe twice in a calendar year, right?


You forgot curling bro. Don't we need trees in ND before we can even bother "splitting firewood"?

[Tribal]

Vinny Gambini (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0000582): Mr. Crane, what are these pictures of?
Ernie Crane (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm1807200): My house and stuff.
Vinny Gambini (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0000582): And what are these really big things that are right in the middle of your view of the Sac-o-Suds and your kitchen window, what do we call these big things?
Ernie Crane (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm1807200): Trees?
Vinny Gambini (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0000582): Trees, that's right, don't be afraid just shout 'em right out when you know 'em.

http://p-ec2.pixstatic.com/5170979e74c5b631ad000040._w.270_h.190_s.centercrop _.jpg

[BisonFan02]

Vinny Gambini (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0000582): Mr. Crane, what are these pictures of?
Ernie Crane (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm1807200): My house and stuff.
Vinny Gambini (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0000582): And what are these really big things that are right in the middle of your view of the Sac-o-Suds and your kitchen window, what do we call these big things?
Ernie Crane (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm1807200): Trees?
Vinny Gambini (http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0000582): Trees, that's right, don't be afraid just shout 'em right out when you know 'em.

http://p-ec2.pixstatic.com/5170979e74c5b631ad000040._w.270_h.190_s.centercrop _.jpg

Would I have been better off just smacking myself with ND being flat? How about the cold weather? No population? Ole/Lena jokes? :D

[BisonFan02]

We should go to firewood the rest of this year...I dunno if we have electricity all over just yet and propane is getting pretty expensive dontcha know? You betchya!

[MplsBison]

Love that movie! That's where I got saying "lucid" from on here.

"That was a lucid, intelligent, well thought out objection." "Thank you, your honor!" "...OVERRULED...."

[MplsBison]

Since when did they HAVE to bid to host a game since they were a seed? It would look bad, but they don't have to pay the minimum bid to host do they?

No, you don't have to bribe the NCAA to host if you're seeded. He's saying the operating costs of conducting the game on campus in the stadium there were not budgeted for. And the NCAA takes a very healthy cut of any revenues from the game, so whatever was leftover certainly wasn't going to pay for that expense.

Human nature is to feel ripped off if you have to pay twice for something, even if you actually gained in the process or perhaps even would've saved money over paying for everything up front. Well, almost no schools (probably none) actually put in the budget extra money for post-season expenses. So when the bills come due for extra money, human nature kicks in.


The NCAA of course kicks in some money for teams' expenses for post-season games, but they ultimately don't give a rip about the division and aren't going to break any kind of account making sure little FCS McNormal College has a fine and dandy time in the playoffs. However, point here is that if your school can't afford to spend anything more than what the NCAA pays - you're not doing it right anyway. That's bare bones and it says something about your program if you're arriving to Frisco the day before the game like the Clampett's.

[IBleedYellow]

What else is there to do in Montana and N. Dakota between October and January besides hunt/fish, split firewood, and attend the one sporting event within a day's drive? Of course people attend the only attraction in town. Montana is two states removed from the nearest professional team and N. Dakota is 3 1/2 hours from Minneapolis. You can only find interest in Bonanzaville USA once or maybe twice in a calendar year, right?


Hunting/Fishing are two great activities, highly recommend people try them.

Also, you forgot one big event around here: Drinking.

[SIUSalukiFan]

Bids are placed pretty early.

They didn't know they'd be a seed when they bid.

HOWEVER, I don't know that the NCAA takes the bid amount from a seed, though they still take their rather large cut.

The NCAA not only takes the bid amount from the school but 50% of the gate receipts.

[SIUSalukiFan]

I think schools like Montana, Montana State and NDSU that sell out regularly no matter what time of year the game is are about the only ones left in FCS that benefit any more. EIU didn't get any help with the weather for their home game. And the EWU game didn't look very full. I wasn't overly impressed with attendance for alot of these playoff games. And people complain that they aren't televised...well they aren't televised because the stands aren't full. Fill the stands and your games will be on TV. Demand created=publicity for team. Schools complaining about not making any money by making the playoffs are making the same arguement for what ruined D2 Football and regionalization. And I'm not going to complain to loudly right now because NDSU has played in such few road playoff games. But I struggle to see how you lose money when you only play one home playoff game this year and the NCAA pays all your travel costs for any legitimate attendees for road games. Maybe leaving the lights on at the practice facility is to expensive?

How long have you been following FCS football? Obviously, not very long.

Only five or six FCS programs in America turn any kind of profit. Maybe one of our Montana friends can help here but I think I remember reading once the Griz had no chance to make a profit in a year unless they hosted at least two playoff games.

Few people give a **** about FCS football. It's a fact of life.

[lionsrking2]

How long have you been following FCS football? Obviously, not very long.

Only five or six FCS programs in America turn any kind of profit. Maybe one of our Montana friends can help here but I think I remember reading once the Griz had no chance to make a profit in a year unless they hosted at least two playoff games.

Few people give a **** about FCS football. It's a fact of life.

Very few schools at the FBS level turn a profit, and no FCS schools do. Of course it all depends on the definition of "profit" and what's considered a subsidy.

[MplsBison]

The NCAA not only takes the bid amount from the school but 50% of the gate receipts.

Not sure I believe the part about taking the bid if they get seeded. Seems too close to actually taking a bribe.

Certainly one thing is for sure, if a school does not submit a bid but then gets seeded - the NCAA does not force the minimum bid amount out of them. That would be downright mob boss with a wrench to the knee cap style fraud.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

How long have you been following FCS football? Obviously, not very long.

Only five or six FCS programs in America turn any kind of profit. Maybe one of our Montana friends can help here but I think I remember reading once the Griz had no chance to make a profit in a year unless they hosted at least two playoff games.

Few people give a **** about FCS football. It's a fact of life.

Montana has said for a long time that don't make a profit and on the P&L they can certainly make it look that way. Of the actual money the games bring in it is diverted to different areas like the plant, the bookstore, etc.

Makes justification of a $40-$50 game ticket a little easier and asking for donations also. I counted up the parking places (roughly) a few years ago and took it times the price per spot and then rough estimated the "grander" tailgating spots and fees and it came up to $50-60K just on fees collected from tailgaters per game. Now take the avg. ticket price/game at $38 for the cheapest seats and multiply by 25,000. Box fees, concessions, apparel sales, and rent from the vendors we don't even need to consider when you start adding up the rest to see that there is a profit whether it show on the sheets or not.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the NCAA takes 75% not 50%.

[Tribal]

Very few schools at the FBS level turn a profit, and no FCS schools do. Of course it all depends on the definition of "profit" and what's considered a subsidy.

That's the key issue...profit, as you allude to, is more than cash on the spot. NDSU's ESPN Gameday stint was probably worth a million in advertisement. America can now tell you more about the Bison than U of Buffalo.

[WileECoyote06]

But in another thread, posters were critical of the SWAC for refusing to participate in the playoffs. When you consider the bottom-line, I can't blame them. I wouldn't choose that for my own institution, but I can certainly understand.

[Bisonator]

We should go to firewood the rest of this year...I dunno if we have electricity all over just yet and propane is getting pretty expensive dontcha know? You betchya!

Don't forget we're still fighting with the Indians out here too! Hate it when they get all riled up and start egging our soddy's! xlolx

[Twentysix]

Don't forget we're still fighting with the Indians out here too! Hate it when they get all riled up and start egging our soddy's! xlolx

The worst is when you forget to shovel your roof, and all the sod collapses in January.

Then you have to try and make it through -45F without a gd roof.

[MplsBison]

But in another thread, posters were critical of the SWAC for refusing to participate in the playoffs. When you consider the bottom-line, I can't blame them. I wouldn't choose that for my own institution, but I can certainly understand.

Then drop down to DII and play the CIAA. That's what it should be.

[SIUSalukiFan]

BTW, I'm pretty sure the NCAA takes 75% not 50%.

You may be right. My numbers might be outdated.

I get a kick out of people who expect cash-strapped schools to host playoff games so those schools get the honor of losing more money. Yes, we all want our schools to play home games but if you don't have the money you don't have the money.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You may be right. My numbers might be outdated.

I get a kick out of people who expect cash-strapped schools to host playoff games so those schools get the honor of losing more money. Yes, we all want our schools to play home games but if you don't have the money you don't have the money.

Yes, it's why I scoff pretty heavily at all the conspiracy theorists about the NCAA doing shenanigans to get certain teams home games in the playoffs. They don't need to. Some AD's just say "phooey" and place the minimum bids and let it ride so it's a pretty safe bet they don't even have to mess with what the stated procedures are...which we've all known for a long, long time.

A few years back the Montana Athletic Dept. sent a check to the NCAA for something like 1.8 million for the 3 home games hosted. You get a few teams that can do that and financially your tournament is looking a little better.

Hell, I'm happy as can be to support some of those teams that can't make it so we have a good playoff.:D

[tribe_pride]

But in another thread, posters were critical of the SWAC for refusing to participate in the playoffs. When you consider the bottom-line, I can't blame them. I wouldn't choose that for my own institution, but I can certainly understand.

Pretty sure the criticism is more on the realm of if you are going to play in FCS, participate in all of FCS including the playoffs. Otherwise, what is the point of being FCS? People also are critical of the Ivies for the same reason.

[SIUSalukiFan]

Yes, it's why I scoff pretty heavily at all the conspiracy theorists about the NCAA doing shenanigans to get certain teams home games in the playoffs. They don't need to. Some AD's just say "phooey" and place the minimum bids and let it ride so it's a pretty safe bet they don't even have to mess with what the stated procedures are...which we've all known for a long, long time.

A few years back the Montana Athletic Dept. sent a check to the NCAA for something like 1.8 million for the 3 home games hosted. You get a few teams that can do that and financially your tournament is looking a little better.

Hell, I'm happy as can be to support some of those teams that can't make it so we have a good playoff.:D

You know what? We were both wrong about how big a piece of the gate receipts the NCAA gets from FCS host schools.

The NCAA gets nothing outside the bid money put up to host the game.

I did not know that before today. If a school has to bid $40,000 to host a playoff game and tickets are $15 a piece then said school has to sell 2,666 tickets just to break even. For most schools, there's not much profit but under this scenario teams that draw well actually do pretty nicely.

[MplsBison]

You know what? We were both wrong about how big a piece of the gate receipts the NCAA gets from FCS host schools.

The NCAA gets nothing outside the bid money put up to host the game.

I did not know that before today. If a school has to bid $40,000 to host a playoff game and tickets are $15 a piece then said school has to sell 2,666 tickets just to break even. For most schools, there's not much profit but under this scenario teams that draw well actually do pretty nicely.

Do you have anything back that up? I've always read that the NCAA took a large percentage of ticket revenue for each playoff game.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You know what? We were both wrong about how big a piece of the gate receipts the NCAA gets from FCS host schools.

The NCAA gets nothing outside the bid money put up to host the game.

I did not know that before today. If a school has to bid $40,000 to host a playoff game and tickets are $15 a piece then said school has to sell 2,666 tickets just to break even. For most schools, there's not much profit but under this scenario teams that draw well actually do pretty nicely.

I think you got faulty information there my man. They get the Lions share of the ticket price and usually the only money made by UM is on service fees, concessions, etc. If they only get the bid either UM was bidding 1/2 million or our AD was lying when he told the story of the check that went to the NCAA for the playoffs.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You know what? We were both wrong about how big a piece of the gate receipts the NCAA gets from FCS host schools.

The NCAA gets nothing outside the bid money put up to host the game.

I did not know that before today. If a school has to bid $40,000 to host a playoff game and tickets are $15 a piece then said school has to sell 2,666 tickets just to break even. For most schools, there's not much profit but under this scenario teams that draw well actually do pretty nicely.

Here is an excerpt from former AD Jim O'Day in an email he sent out in 2011.


– We are NOT guaranteed home playoff games. We have been extremely fortunate in the past. To put in perspective, we made about $100,000 for the three home playoff games last year – and sent another $1.1 million to the NCAA. A regular season home game nets between $400,000 and $1 million (Montana State, App State, etc.).

[McNeese72]

You know what? We were both wrong about how big a piece of the gate receipts the NCAA gets from FCS host schools.

The NCAA gets nothing outside the bid money put up to host the game.

I did not know that before today. If a school has to bid $40,000 to host a playoff game and tickets are $15 a piece then said school has to sell 2,666 tickets just to break even. For most schools, there's not much profit but under this scenario teams that draw well actually do pretty nicely.

That's not the way it was explained to me in the past. The bid is the minimum that the NCAA will get. The NCAA gets a percentage of the gate (I forget the percentage. 75%???) or the bid, whatever is higher.

Doc

[WileECoyote06]

Pretty sure the criticism is more on the realm of if you are going to play in FCS, participate in all of FCS including the playoffs. Otherwise, what is the point of being FCS? People also are critical of the Ivies for the same reason.

Because they can't go down and still be eligible for the basketball tournament. But criticism aside, if FCS is about cost-containment, and playoff teams are still losing money, then why not take an option to make money?

[Twentysix]

That's not the way it was explained to me in the past. The bid is the minimum that the NCAA will get. The NCAA gets a percentage of the gate (I forget the percentage. 75%???) or the bid, whatever is higher.

Doc

This is also the way I understand it.

If the schools bid exceeds 75% of profits, then you pay the bid and lose money. If 75% of profits exceeds the bid, the school pays the 75%.

In the instance of a seed, they host so long as they meet the round minimum $$, (of course if they bid way above the round minimum the that bid would still apply).

Essentially no matter what schools like NDSU and UM pay the 75% whether they are seeded or not, because, they can outbid most other schools without coming close to the 75% profit margin making the dollar bid a sort of semantics. Schools that have a poor draw pay their bid and lose money rather than the 75% of profits.

In every instance, the greatest amount of cash (tax) that can flow into the NCAA's coffers to finance the playoffs is always extracted. And as far as I know the NCAA always breaks even or loses money on the playoffs.

Scenario A) Bid 100,000; Profit 1,000,000; NCAA nets 750,000; school is left with 250,000
Scenario B) Bid 50,000; Profit 12,000; NCAA nets 50,000; school is left with -38,000.

NCAA then uses profits to finance all of the away team expenses for the entire tournament, and to finance the championship experience. Scenario A finances the travel for 5 or 6 games. Scenario B finances the travel for 1/2 a game.

There are more B's than A's in the FCS.

[andy7171]

Late to the game here fellas, sorry.

From what I've heard, we put in a giant bid to host our first D.Iaa play-off appearance to host Lehigh in '11. I was told that we put in a very small bid knowing we would travel if not receiving a seed this past year. Why, I'm not sure. The crowd at the Fordham game was completely embarrassing. It was obvious, the attendance was going to be low in the parking lot. Students were a complete no-show. Not like in the past where they didn't make it out of the parking lot, they just didn't come. Sad really.

And I agree after three long road trips bringing along friends and family and only losing $50K is not much to be upset about.

The Towerlight loves to cause problems between athletics and academics. Been going on since my days there.

[AmsterBison]

Because they can't go down and still be eligible for the basketball tournament. But criticism aside, if FCS is about cost-containment, and playoff teams are still losing money, then why not take an option to make money?

Well, you could lose money in the BB tourney too. All you have to do is bring X+Y people to the game when the NCAA pays for X to go.

[TexasTerror]

My two cents...

Towson may have lost $50k... but how much $$$ worth of additional exposure (yes, it is soft money) did they get from the three hour 'commercials' that came with having games on ESPN and ESPN2?

I still think the 'soft money' (untraceable benefits in exposure, application increases, enrollment increases + net student athletic fee gain, donor gifts related to athletics) outweigh the 'hard money' when you are just talking something like $50k. Isn't part of the reason we all have athletic programs the connection to alumni? The exposure our Universities get (sorry, sTu baseball gets more pub than the biology department at the school!) and the list goes on? I'd say so! I've seen multiple Presidents reference having football programs and/or athletic programs at the Division I level for that.

SHSU did not see significant (if any) attendance increases during the postseason runs, but again - how were applications impacted by two, three games on ESPN/ESPN2 each year during the run? The year SHSU made the NCAA tournament in basketball for the first time (2003), the University experienced its highest attended 'Saturday at Sam' in school history two weeks later. That's an event for prospective students. Was there a correlation? The President thought so.

There's a benefit to having athletics... there's a benefit to additional national exposure...

BTW... do you realize athletic departments typically lose money when they send their baseball, softball, tennis or whatever teams into the postseason? You guys mentioned FBS schools losing money left and right (more times than not, even when BCS games involved), but it happens across the board. The NCAA does not cover the full check that Universities end up spending. And yet, all 350+ Div I schools still keep the current system in place. Go figure!

[GAD]

My two cents...

Towson may have lost $50k... but how much $$$ worth of additional exposure (yes, it is soft money) did they get from the three hour 'commercials' that came with having games on ESPN and ESPN2?

I still think the 'soft money' (untraceable benefits in exposure, application increases, enrollment increases + net student athletic fee gain, donor gifts related to athletics) outweigh the 'hard money' when you are just talking something like $50k. Isn't part of the reason we all have athletic programs the connection to alumni? The exposure our Universities get (sorry, sTu baseball gets more pub than the biology department at the school!) and the list goes on? I'd say so! I've seen multiple Presidents reference having football programs and/or athletic programs at the Division I level for that.

SHSU did not see significant (if any) attendance increases during the postseason runs, but again - how were applications impacted by two, three games on ESPN/ESPN2 each year during the run? The year SHSU made the NCAA tournament in basketball for the first time (2003), the University experienced its highest attended 'Saturday at Sam' in school history two weeks later. That's an event for prospective students. Was there a correlation? The President thought so.

There's a benefit to having athletics... there's a benefit to additional national exposure...

BTW... do you realize athletic departments typically lose money when they send their baseball, softball, tennis or whatever teams into the postseason? You guys mentioned FBS schools losing money left and right (more times than not, even when BCS games involved), but it happens across the board. The NCAA does not cover the full check that Universities end up spending. And yet, all 350+ Div I schools still keep the current system in place. Go figure!
Why do you think you saw no increase in attendance during your playoffs runs? Considering the size of your student population, and alumni base

[smallcollegefbfan]

I think schools like Montana, Montana State and NDSU that sell out regularly no matter what time of year the game is are about the only ones left in FCS that benefit any more. EIU didn't get any help with the weather for their home game. And the EWU game didn't look very full. I wasn't overly impressed with attendance for alot of these playoff games. And people complain that they aren't televised...well they aren't televised because the stands aren't full. Fill the stands and your games will be on TV. Demand created=publicity for team. Schools complaining about not making any money by making the playoffs are making the same arguement for what ruined D2 Football and regionalization. And I'm not going to complain to loudly right now because NDSU has played in such few road playoff games. But I struggle to see how you lose money when you only play one home playoff game this year and the NCAA pays all your travel costs for any legitimate attendees for road games. Maybe leaving the lights on at the practice facility is to expensive?

The only teams I know of who make a profit are Montana, NDSU, and GSU and App when they were in FCS. Most teams don't. I would say EWU might make some money but most teams do not, especially if they are bidding for home games. I love this level and there might be a passionate group of fans on here but most teams don't make money. Why do people think that many FCS teams are willing to play in the toilet bowl rather than win championships at this level? It's because the toilet bowl in FCS pays out more and they are more likely to make money. Not all bowl teams make money but if they travel well and sell out or are close to selling out home games, they usually do make money because they bring good crowds to bowls. South Carolina, Clemson, UNC, Michigan, Florida State, Texas, USC, etc all make big money when they go to bowls because they bring strong crowds and the payout is very good.

I don't know for sure how many FCS teams make money but I would imagine it's less than 10. Many teams just don't have the fan support. It's too bad SWAC and Ivy League teams don't participate because I imagine most of them would make money in the playoffs.

[TexasTerror]

Why do you think you saw no increase in attendance during your playoffs runs? Considering the size of your student population, and alumni base

Several fold...

Whether I agree with it or not... one of the biggest complaints of the fan base is the date/time of games. With so many people having to commute in, they are not fans of the 2 PM game time on Saturday.

There's also some mythical barrier separating Houston/Huntsville. So many folks come to the Battle of Piney Woods in Houston who never make it to Huntsville for Homecoming, a big game or what not. It's great alumni building relations - but certainly an issue. I'm curious to see with more games in Houston (with HBU in the league, baseball playing in the Minute Maid Park Classic and increased alumni events), if more folks start showing up to other Houston events.

As it relates to student base, think fans are asking for more to promote an environment for students to enjoy. I think the University is working to increase how many students live on campus, which will be a boon too.

[CrazyCat]

Students can't use their season passes for playoff games. They have to buy their ticket like everyone else. I also think that attendance is calculated differently by the NCAA than schools do during the regular season.

[BisonFan02]

Students can't use their season passes for playoff games. They have to buy their ticket like everyone else. I also think that attendance is calculated differently by the NCAA than schools do during the regular season.

Correct to a point. It is on paid attendance for the NCAA (across the board). ie. NDSU loses a few hundred for postseason "capacity" due to the band. I think there is a lot of creative ways some regular season attendance is counted in a few places. :D

[Twentysix]

Correct to a point. It is on paid attendance for the NCAA (across the board). ie. NDSU loses a few hundred for postseason "capacity" due to the band. I think there is a lot of creative ways some regular season attendance is counted in a few places. :D

Could you imagine if ORU had a football team? 400,000 at every game, no doubt.

(for those confused, ORU routinely gets crowds of around 500-1000, and proclaims they have 8,000-9,000 in attendance at basketball games.)

NDSU football averages about 160,000 fans a game in ORU numbers :p.

[Missingnumber7]

I don't know for sure how many FCS teams make money but I would imagine it's less than 10. Many teams just don't have the fan support. It's too bad SWAC and Ivy League teams don't participate because I imagine most of them would make money in the playoffs.
Attendance is a big issue. When you watch FCS games and stands are half full at best, shoot even when NDSU travels and sees that 2/3 of the attendance is Bison faithful it tells me that it just isn't a big draw and schools losing money on playoff games makes sense.

For those that haven't, tune in to an Ivy game or a SWAC game. If the product on the field is average, the stands are full or at least look full. And I would bet with a playoff game it would be even more. I understand some of the lack in playoff attendance is due to weather, and the one week planning has some to do with it as well. But some of the playoff attendance has been downright embarassing, and that goes into the bottom line of making money for hosting.

[TexasTerror]

Soft money benefit...??? Significant growth in royalties for North Dakota State, significant influx of NDSU merchandise into the marketplace and in turn, bolster of promoting school to perspective students, fans and donors....


Just like a solid food chain, everyone tied to it is looking for their piece of the apparel pie. NDSU Marketing tells us for every ten dollars spent, NDSU gets a dollar of the wholesale cost. NDSU is seeing tremendous increases in royalties. In 2010, their cut was nearly $117,000. Last year, it was more than $418,000, a four hundred percent increase. With time left in this budget year, they've already met expectations and could easily reach a half million dollars.

"We've worked the math backwards, just to see what kind of impact it has on our retail economy. When you think of 10% in royalties, I think we've figured 12-15 million dollars in retail sales," says Troy Goergen, NDSU Marketing.

http://www.valleynewslive.com/story/24721804/the-sport-of-game-gear

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Attendance is a big issue. When you watch FCS games and stands are half full at best, shoot even when NDSU travels and sees that 2/3 of the attendance is Bison faithful it tells me that it just isn't a big draw and schools losing money on playoff games makes sense.

For those that haven't, tune in to an Ivy game or a SWAC game. If the product on the field is average, the stands are full or at least look full. And I would bet with a playoff game it would be even more. I understand some of the lack in playoff attendance is due to weather, and the one week planning has some to do with it as well. But some of the playoff attendance has been downright embarassing, and that goes into the bottom line of making money for hosting.

I've been to 4 of the other schools in the MVFC, only SDSU and UNI even looked full and had enormous Bison turnouts. SIU and ISUb were half full at best.

[AmsterBison]

Soft money benefit...??? Significant growth in royalties for North Dakota State, significant influx of NDSU merchandise into the marketplace and in turn, bolster of promoting school to perspective students, fans and donors....

http://www.valleynewslive.com/story/24721804/the-sport-of-game-gear

Yeah, riding high now, but even if NDSU falters a bit, they've won a new generation of fans. Heck,, I'm waiting to see what kind of TV money NDSU might be able to command. NDSU got over a 70-share of the Fargo-Moorhead television audience last year (and that's with a UND game televised on a different channel) and a 50+ share of the statewide audience as well. The Winter Olympics aren't gong to get those numbers this weekend, and they are aired opposite infomercials, not SEC and Big10 football games.

[henfan]

The only teams I know of who make a profit are Montana, NDSU, and GSU and App when they were in FCS. Most teams don't.

Ahem. UD has reported net profits on FB since at least 1997 and many suspect it's been the case since 1972 when they expanded the stadium. However, locals seem to be tiring of FCS FB, the program itself has not generated much juice in recent years and attendance continues to decline. Don't know how much longer FB will be a profitable venture in Newark, DE.

The TU bellyaching is disingenuous for the reasons mentioned here.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Ahem. UD has reported net profits on FB since at least 1997 and many suspect it's been the case since 1972 when they expanded the stadium. However, locals seem to be tiring of FCS FB, the program itself has not generated much juice in recent years and attendance continues to decline. Don't know how much longer FB will be a profitable venture in Newark, DE.

The TU bellyaching is disingenuous for the reasons mentioned here.

Is it the tiring of FCS or from what I understand it is more the tiring of UD administration and their treatment of fans/season ticket holders?

[Twentysix]

Soft money benefit...??? Significant growth in royalties for North Dakota State, significant influx of NDSU merchandise into the marketplace and in turn, bolster of promoting school to perspective students, fans and donors....



http://www.valleynewslive.com/story/24721804/the-sport-of-game-gear

12-15 million bucks is pretty good for FCS apparel. I would assume the vast majority of that is sold in ND/Minneapolis.

Though I did find NDSU stuff for sale in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Kansas City and Billings Montana. (It has always just been one or two types of items though.

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1545595_10153710141900384_1011098673_n.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BeyieBjCAAAOh2B.jpg:large

Both those shots are from Las Vegas (I didn't take either picture).

[henfan]

Is it the tiring of FCS or from what I understand it is more the tiring of UD administration and their treatment of fans/season ticket holders?

IMO, the latter resulted in the former. Through their own short-sighted planning, the UD administration inadvertently chased away a considerable chunk of the older fanbase, who had been among the most ardent supporters of FCS FB. Despite efforts to attract new season ticket holders with lower ticket prices, reduced requirements for donations, etc., younger fans in this region appear to be not terribly interested in FCS FB, unfortunately. Season ticket numbers continue to plummet. The modest results on the field over the last three seasons haven't helped either but that doesn't come close to explaining the drop off. Record low attendance during the 2010 championship playoff run was a major red flag that something was terribly amiss in River City. It's only gotten worse.

Losing rivals like UMass, ODU and, now potentially, JMU makes it an even tougher sell, as do unappealing non-conference home slates.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

unappealing non-conference home slates

A Lehigh home-and-home would help with that. Just sayin.

Lafayette will help with that, too, and I understand that's already on the schedule. Regional rivalries with teams of the same level.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

IMO, the latter resulted in the former. Through their own short-sighted planning, the UD administration inadvertently chased away a considerable chunk of the older fanbase, who had been among the most ardent supporters of FCS FB. Despite efforts to attract new season ticket holders with lower ticket prices, reduced requirements for donations, etc., younger fans in this region appear to be not terribly interested in FCS FB, unfortunately. Season ticket numbers continue to plummet. The modest results on the field over the last three seasons haven't helped either but that doesn't come close to explaining the drop off. Record low attendance during the 2010 championship playoff run was a major red flag that something was terribly amiss in River City. It's only gotten worse.

Losing rivals like UMass, ODU and, now potentially, JMU makes it an even tougher sell, as do unappealing non-conference home slates.

This appears to be a pretty good analysis, thanks for the further explanation.

[henfan]

A Lehigh home-and-home would help with that. Just sayin.

Lafayette will help with that, too, and I understand that's already on the schedule. Regional rivalries with teams of the same level.

Those games would certainly attract more fans from the visiting schools than some of the non-conference games scheduled recently. Unfortunately, they wouldn't/won't like result in much more interest among potential UD ticket buyers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Those games would certainly attract more fans from the visiting schools than some of the non-conference games scheduled recently. Unfortunately, they wouldn't/won't like result in much more interest among potential UD ticket buyers.

Personally I think having a bunch of visiting Lehigh fans to taunt and boo might be a bigger draw than you might imagine, but I understand what you're saying. I can't imagine the atmosphere was that great with the 27 Jacksonville Dolphin fans that made the trip to the Tub, and the fans who showed up probably said, "Who?"

[henfan]

Personally I think having a bunch of visiting Lehigh fans to taunt and boo might be a bigger draw than you might imagine, but I understand what you're saying. I can't imagine the atmosphere was that great with the 27 Jacksonville Dolphin fans that made the trip to the Tub, and the fans who showed up probably said, "Who?"

27 is a pretty accurate number too, sadly. No disrespect intended towards Jacksonville but that's a long way to travel and just not a very good match up from almost any standpoint.

[caribbeanhen]

Is it the tiring of FCS or from what I understand it is more the tiring of UD administration and their treatment of fans/season ticket holders?

Henfan abandoned AGS 10 years ago, lifelong dream was to attend a bowl game that Delaware was playing in apparently and FCS doesn’t have those unless you’re a HBC