FCS Football Budgets

[centennial]

Hammersmith on bisonville posted football budgets for some FCS conferences. Thought they would make interesting conversation.


Big Sky
Montana $5,896,289
Montana State $5,044,725
Portland State $3,832,289
UC Davis $3,566,555
Eastern Washington $3,444,305
Sacramento State $3,299,190
Northern Arizona $3,267,428
Idaho State $3,261,187
North Dakota $3,181,952
Cal Poly $3,066,342
Northern Colorado $2,965,650
Weber State $2,675,532
Southern Utah $2,333,902


Colonial
James Madison $6,986,160
Delaware $6,265,337
Richmond $6,068,055
Villanova $5,921,525
William & Mary $4,971,542
Stony Brook $4,399,966
New Hampshire $4,142,300
Maine $3,756,246
Towson $3,563,136
Rhode Island $3,559,524
Albany $2,191,690


MVFC
North Dakota State $4,044,796
Youngstown State $3,725,254
Southern Illinois $3,641,600
Northern Iowa $3,154,067
Illinois State $3,166,946
Western Illinois $3,007,439
Indiana State $2,859,361
South Dakota State $2,723,760
South Dakota $2,687,268
Missouri State $2,534,968


Southern
Furman $6,150,270
Samford $5,157,707
Appalachian State $4,214,171
Elon $4,201,027
Citadel $3,885,465
Wofford $3,879,148
Georgia Southern $3,521,604
Chattanooga $3,245,523
Western Carolina $2,792,939


Southland
Lamar $3,582,771
Stephen F. Austin $3,410,990
Sam Houston State $3,053,896
Northwestern State $2,946,079
SE Louisiana $2,842,750
Central Arkansas $2,602,141
McNeese State $2,488,286
Nicholls State $1,997,768
Houston Baptist NA

[BEAR]

Central Arkansas $2,602,141

That's about to go up with our new coach. Thankfully. But our A.D. Teague has done wonders with such a limited budget. That move from Division II in 2007 costs us more to spread around to all the new sports. Now the bubble should be working its way back to football. I mean Conque was making 141k while Campbell is now making 185k...so its taking time.

[Dane96]

The numbers aren't correct. They are calculating debt service as well.

For example, game day expenses at UA and SBU are around the same...approximately 600,000 dollars. SBU doesn't shell out huge money as a "money game" provider to visiting schools, and neither will Albany. SBU has 63 rides while UA, at the time of the OPE report, had 38 rides. The cost of attendance, and how it is calculated as in-state vs.out-of-state, are similar. Coaching salary is about the same across staffs, as are recruiting budgets.

Yet, with only 28 more scholarships SBU spends nearly more than double that of Albany?

This can only happen if they are counting the stadium debt service as a cost.

[Bogus Megapardus]

football budgets for major FCS conferences.

What do we call the other conferences - Minor? Insignificant? Waste-Of-Your-Time? Or do they simply not count?

The B.S. on this board really is getting to be infuriating - to the point where you can take your "Major" FCS conference crap and shove it.

[Bogus Megapardus]

That's not correct for Albany: it's around 3.3 million, and will increase with more scholarships (25 more based on the year the OPE was reported).

Is Albany now a "Major" FCS team?

[centennial]

What do we call the other conferences - Minor? Insignificant? Waste-Of-Your-Time? Or do they simply not count?

The B.S. on this board really is getting to be infuriating - to the point where you can take your "Major" FCS conference crap and shove it.
No need to get angry, I did not do these. I can ask him to do other leagues if you want.

[centennial]

The numbers aren't correct. They are calculating debt service as well.

For example, game day expenses at UA and SBU are around the same...approximately 600,000 dollars. SBU doesn't shell out huge money as a "money game" provider to visiting schools, and neither will Albany. SBU has 63 rides while UA, at the time of the OPE report, had 38 rides. The cost of attendance, and how it is calculated as in-state vs.out-of-state, are similar. Coaching salary is about the same across staffs, as are recruiting budgets.

Yet, with only 28 more scholarships SBU spends nearly more than double that of Albany?

This can only happen if they are counting the stadium debt service as a cost.
I assume that comes out of the athletic and specifically the football budget. Also consider that there are state schools and private schools on the list, the cost to go to these school vary a lot.

[Bogus Megapardus]

No need to get angry, I did not do these. I can ask him to do other leagues if you want.

It's hysterically funny to me, that's all. I rarely start new threads but this certainly deserves one - now that the FCS, like the FBS, has been divided into "real" conferences and "conferences that don't count and that no one cares about."

There's no need to ask anyone to do any more work to calculate the numbers for the "fake" FCS conferences. DFW HOYA already has done that work and has posted it on his excellent Third Rail (http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/11/by-numbers.html) blog. Besides, it's the thought that counts.

I now have a theme for the entire off season: to skewer and parody the "major" vs "worthless" FCS conference schism. It should be tons of fun. Shall we begin with a poll, perhaps? Who's "in" and who's "out?" Maybe I can make some special avatars too - but only posters from the "Major" FCS teams can use the really nice ones. That work for everyone?

[FargoBison]

Patriot League needs to be here....it is right on par with the new SoCon

[marenlee]

I also believe these numbers were from 2006-2011 right? So some schools are probably a little higher now, and some smaller.

[IBleedYellow]

What do we call the other conferences - Minor? Insignificant? Waste-Of-Your-Time? Or do they simply not count?

The B.S. on this board really is getting to be infuriating - to the point where you can take your "Major" FCS conference crap and shove it.

You're clearly not understanding how some schools choose FCS football. For some: It's the biggest part of their school. Football is the main show at the campuses which were listed above. Can you honestly tell me that Football is what runs the show in some of the Patriot or Pioneer leagues? It's a totally different mindset. Some schools are football driven, while others are basketball driven, but stay at the FCS so that the rest of their sports can be DI.

The major FCS conferences generally speaking push their football more. I know of a big exception in the Valley of UNI, they prefer to be known as a basketball school and football second.

It's not BS, it's reality, and something that I'm starting to not like about the FCS. Some teams use it as a "we're DI for all other sports, better have FCS football." While others (NDSU, SDSU, others) go "We want to be able to have a shot at going for National Titles at the highest level of competition where we aren't thrown away for obscurity, and actually have a shot at the Title." IE: FCS > FBS for those schools. If you honestly can't see the difference, that's your fault.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You're clearly not understanding how some schools choose FCS football. For some: It's the biggest part of their school. Football is the main show at the campuses which were listed above. Can you honestly tell me that Football is what runs the show in some of the Patriot or Pioneer leagues? It's a totally different mindset. Some schools are football driven, while others are basketball driven, but stay at the FCS so that the rest of their sports can be DI.

The major FCS conferences generally speaking push their football more. I know of a big exception in the Valley of UNI, they prefer to be known as a basketball school and football second.

It's not BS, it's reality, and something that I'm starting to not like about the FCS. Some teams use it as a "we're DI for all other sports, better have FCS football." While others (NDSU, SDSU, others) go "We want to be able to have a shot at going for National Titles at the highest level of competition where we aren't thrown away for obscurity, and actually have a shot at the Title." IE: FCS > FBS for those schools. If you honestly can't see the difference, that's your fault.


I know football is very important at Lehigh. Is more important than any academic endeavor? Absolutely not. But football, not wrestling, is the most important sport at Lehigh and has been for the better part of 40-50 years imo. Obviously the rivalry with Lafayette has a lot do with it but so does the local culture of football. I think Lehigh's AD would tell you directly that the programs goal is to win the national title. The amount of resources the school puts towards the program makes me believe there is a commitment.

I think Fordham has evolved into a decent football school over the last 10+ years as well. They've put a real emphasis on the sport since Clawson arrived in the late 90's.

The fact is, the PL institutions pour a lot of money into their programs, and in general, their facilities.

[Sader87]

You're clearly not understanding how some schools choose FCS football. For some: It's the biggest part of their school. Football is the main show at the campuses which were listed above. Can you honestly tell me that Football is what runs the show in some of the Patriot or Pioneer leagues? It's a totally different mindset. Some schools are football driven, while others are basketball driven, but stay at the FCS so that the rest of their sports can be DI.

The major FCS conferences generally speaking push their football more. I know of a big exception in the Valley of UNI, they prefer to be known as a basketball school and football second.

It's not BS, it's reality, and something that I'm starting to not like about the FCS. Some teams use it as a "we're DI for all other sports, better have FCS football." While others (NDSU, SDSU, others) go "We want to be able to have a shot at going for National Titles at the highest level of competition where we aren't thrown away for obscurity, and actually have a shot at the Title." IE: FCS > FBS for those schools. If you honestly can't see the difference, that's your fault.

Actually HC's football budget was larger than NDSU's in 2013 according to DFW's list. I don't pretend to be accountant or economist, so I'm not entirely sure what that means exactly, other than we paid a LOT more than you guys for our first downs this season.

Yes, fan enthusiasm has waned at HC (and other PL and IL schools) over the past 25 or so years but I would still say that football is very important to many of these schools alumni and fans.

It wasn't all that long ago that HC was drawing just as many (and more) fans to their home games as NDSU does today at the Fargo-Dome...hopefully with scholarships again, we can once again do the same.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You're clearly not understanding . . . If you honestly can't see the difference . . .

Do you REALLY want to go there with the "some schools" schtick? The Ivy League and Patriot League schools, for example, have excelled at the highest level and won championships in sports that North Dakota State University and and its "Major FCS" brethren have never heard of, while winning more football and basketball national championships that you possibly can imagine. These schools know a thing or two about operating intercollegiate athletics given the fact that they not only invented the game of college football, but they founded the NCAA as well.

Your "stay at FCS so their other sports can be Division I" rationalization might make sense to you and for an extremely narrow band of colleges - maybe a couple dozen - out of the thousands of members of the NCAA. But I have to tell you, it doesn't give rise to a, "you're clearly not understanding . . . if you honestly can't see the difference" blanket accusation to schools who always have played at the highest level and where, in some instances, a quarter (or even more) of the student population always has participated in varsity athletics.

No, I think that it is you who is "clearly not understanding" and who "honestly can't see the difference" between schools whose sports programs would be literally unaffected by the disappearance of all NCAA classifications (or even the NCAA itself), and institutions whose fundamental raison d'etre at every level would cease to exist were that to occur.

You really do embarrass yourself, mr. giant "banhammer."

[lionsrking2]

Appreciate the effort in compiling the info, but comparing budgets, particularly from one conference to another, is apples and oranges due to the disparity in scholarship costs, and in some cases travel costs. Private school budgets will almost always be inflated, and public schools in some states have much higher tuition than others. And schools in the Big Sky have a lot of plane flights which can run up costs.

[BisonBacker]

What do we call the other conferences - Minor? Insignificant? Waste-Of-Your-Time? Or do they simply not count?

The B.S. on this board really is getting to be infuriating - to the point where you can take your "Major" FCS conference crap and shove it.

Male PMS? I'm guessing it was Hammersmith who put that together and from what I've read of his postings he's not a in your face kind of guy and very level headed fact finding type of poster. I can guarantee you he wasn't putting together any list/tables/graphs trying to slam any one conference. Man you must have had a bad week posting like that. Talk about shooting the messenger. Step away from the computer and take a deep breath.

[darell1976]

Hammersmith on bisonville posted football budgets for major FCS conferences. Thought they would make interesting conversation.

UND will always be middle or lower end of the BSC with football budgets as we are a hockey school, but have done a lot with the football money available, of course getting rid of the waste (Mussman) will help us financially in the long run with success on the field.

[centennial]

Appreciate the effort in compiling the info, but comparing budgets, particularly from one conference to another, is apples and oranges due to the disparity in scholarship costs, and in some cases travel costs. Private school budgets will almost always be inflated, and public schools in some states have much higher tuition than others. And schools in the Big Sky have a lot of plane flights which can run up costs.
Exactly, travel costs, scholarship cost are huge factors. PL and Ivy schools, a lot of CAA schools probably are 3x the tuition at a state school.

[citdog]

Patriot League needs to be here....it is right on par with the new SoCon


and FargoBison is in the lead for 2014 most humorous poster of the year award.

http://www.jockeysroom.com/TightFinish.jpg
The Southern Conference is just fine and will remain one of the top 3 leagues far into the future.
The Patsy league is getting better but still has a WAYS to go to be relevant. Their champion was completely dismantled in the first round and fordham was overrated by at least 10 spots in the poll this year.

[Vitojr130]

Do you REALLY want to go there with the "some schools" schtick? The Ivy League and Patriot League schools, for example, have excelled at the highest level and won championships in sports that North Dakota State University and and its "Major FCS" brethren have never heard of, while winning more football and basketball national championships that you possibly can imagine. These schools know a thing or two about operating intercollegiate athletics given the fact that they not only invented the game of college football, but they founded the NCAA as well.

Your "stay at FCS so their other sports can be Division I" rationalization might make sense to you and for an extremely narrow band of colleges - maybe a couple dozen - out of the thousands of members of the NCAA. But I have to tell you, it doesn't give rise to a, "you're clearly not understanding . . . if you honestly can't see the difference" blanket accusation to schools who always have played at the highest level and where, in some instances, a quarter (or even more) of the student population always has participated in varsity athletics.

No, I think that it is you who is "clearly not understanding" and who "honestly can't see the difference" between schools whose sports programs would be literally unaffected by the disappearance of all NCAA classifications (or even the NCAA itself), and institutions whose fundamental raison d'etre at every level would cease to exist were that to occur.

You really do embarrass yourself, mr. giant "banhammer."

Well, there is always the fact that the PL has never won a national championship at the D1-AA/FCS, which is why most people would not consider it a major conference for football. If I'm wrong, correct me... but I'm not.

[Sader87]

Exactly, travel costs, scholarship cost are huge factors. PL and Ivy schools, a lot of CAA schools probably are 3x the tuition at a state school.

I don't disagree....again, I can't make heads or tails out of what these budgets actually measure etc, but some Ivy schools, most surprisingly Harvard and Princeton, are way down on this list...spending less than Norfolk St etc

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/11/by-numbers.html

[Bogus Megapardus]

Step away from the computer and take a deep breath.

Next time one of your posters wants to announce the existence of two tiers of FCS football, tell him to come here to do it. I'm going to have fun with this (probably at NDSU's expense) for the rest of the off season. If you don't like it, don't read it.

[BisonBacker]

Next time one of your posters Posts something I don't like I'll remember my own advice., If you don't like it, don't read it.
There I fixed it for ya!

Oh and like the Avatar. Seems a little contradictory but hey whatever floats your boat xthumbsupx

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Patsy league is getting better but still has a WAYS to go to be relevant.

Relevant to whom? To you, Dorothy?

[lionsrking2]

Exactly, travel costs, scholarship cost are huge factors. PL and Ivy schools, a lot of CAA schools probably are 3x the tuition at a state school.

The best way to compare budgets would be to compare the itemized costs for salaries, equipment, and items that would be considered luxuries. For purposes of filling a roster, a full scholarship is a full scholarship, whether it costs 50K per year or 10K per year ... in most cases, public schools have an advantage of being able to budget less dollars than privates ... also schools in conferences which don't require plane flights, will have an advantage of spending less on travel.

Coaching salaries are somewhat apples and oranges as well, based on cost of living, but there's enough discretion in ability to pay that the ability to pay more would be considered an advantage. Also the ability to afford top of the line equipment and luxury items or facility upgrades which tend to lure recruits. That's where the real comparisons are valid IMO.

[citdog]

Next time one of your posters wants to announce the existence of two tiers of FCS football, tell him to come here to do it. I'm going to have fun with this (probably at NDSU's expense) for the rest of the off season. If you don't like it, don't read it.


if you can't see that there are at LEAST two tiers of FCS football you've got your headquarters where your hindquarters ought to be.

Power Conferences

Patriot, IVY

Pioneer

SWAC

[citdog]

Relevant to whom? To you, Dorothy?


Did you even WATCH the playoffs this season?

[Bisonator]

Next time one of your posters wants to announce the existence of two tiers of FCS football, tell him to come here to do it. I'm going to have fun with this (probably at NDSU's expense) for the rest of the off season. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Pull your panties out of the wad and put on your big boy pants!

[RichH2]

It's hysterically funny to me, that's all. I rarely start new threads but this certainly deserves one - now that the FCS, like the FBS, has been divided into "real" conferences and "conferences that don't count and that no one cares about."

There's no need to ask anyone to do any more work to calculate the numbers for the "fake" FCS conferences. DFW HOYA already has done that work and has posted it on his excellent Third Rail (http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/11/by-numbers.html) blog. Besides, it's the thought that cou

I now have a theme for the entire off season: to skewer and parody the "major" vs "worthless" FCS conference schism. It should be tons of fun. Shall we begin with a poll, perhaps? Who's "in" and who's "out?" Maybe I can make some special avatars too - but only posters from the "Major" FCS teams can use the really nice ones. That work for everyone?

Well said. Love the avatar. Thread about FCS expenses,it should include all of us not just the 'MAJORS'

[Bill]

I haven't had time to investigate further yet...is this the EADA data? If so, it can be extremely flawed....

[BisonBacker]

Well said. Love the avatar. Thread about FCS expenses,it should include all of us not just the 'MAJORS'
Wait a minute that option was offered but Bogus didn't like that either. You can't have it both ways now. ;)

[citdog]

It's hysterically funny to me, that's all. I rarely start new threads but this certainly deserves one - now that the FCS, like the FBS, has been divided into "real" conferences and "conferences that don't count and that no one cares about."

There's no need to ask anyone to do any more work to calculate the numbers for the "fake" FCS conferences. DFW HOYA already has done that work and has posted it on his excellent Third Rail (http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/11/by-numbers.html) blog. Besides, it's the thought that counts.

I now have a theme for the entire off season: to skewer and parody the "major" vs "worthless" FCS conference schism. It should be tons of fun. Shall we begin with a poll, perhaps? Who's "in" and who's "out?" Maybe I can make some special avatars too - but only posters from the "Major" FCS teams can use the really nice ones. That work for everyone?


you can do whatever you like in the off season but I wonder why you would want to enter a schmeckle measuring contest that you know you can't win.

- - - Updated - - -


It's hysterically funny to me, that's all. I rarely start new threads but this certainly deserves one - now that the FCS, like the FBS, has been divided into "real" conferences and "conferences that don't count and that no one cares about."

There's no need to ask anyone to do any more work to calculate the numbers for the "fake" FCS conferences. DFW HOYA already has done that work and has posted it on his excellent Third Rail (http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/11/by-numbers.html) blog. Besides, it's the thought that counts.

I now have a theme for the entire off season: to skewer and parody the "major" vs "worthless" FCS conference schism. It should be tons of fun. Shall we begin with a poll, perhaps? Who's "in" and who's "out?" Maybe I can make some special avatars too - but only posters from the "Major" FCS teams can use the really nice ones. That work for everyone?


you can do whatever you like in the off season but I wonder why you would want to enter a schmeckle measuring contest that you know you can't win.

[Bisonator]

Did you even WATCH the playoffs this season?

No he was too busy jerking off in the Lafayette at New Hampshire thread. xlolx

[BisonBacker]

No he was too busy jerking off in the Lafayette at New Hampshire thread. xlolx

Yeah that didn't go so well for them either. But they did get a participation ribbon because in Bogus's world everyones a winner.

[centennial]

Next time one of your posters wants to announce the existence of two tiers of FCS football, tell him to come here to do it. I'm going to have fun with this (probably at NDSU's expense) for the rest of the off season. If you don't like it, don't read it.
I already changed the verbiage, also asked you if you wanted me to ask for the other numbers on bisonville. Your butt hurt is incredible, you could have easily send me a PM and I would have changed my post. Why don't you pull up your big boy panties?
You have also completely thrown the thread completely off topic.

[Sader87]

The fact of the matter is that the PL can be a pretty strong conference once all the teams have a roster of full scholarships. Fordham has shown that to an extent already. I know it's not the 1980's anymore but when HC last had full scholarship rosters they were routinely in the 1-AA Top 10. Colgate and Lehigh have been strong nationally both in the 80s and in the non-scholarship PL era of the last 25 or so years.


There are still issues i.e. the Academic Index, no red-shirting year (except for medical reasons) etc. but the PL is poised to be a pretty competitive conference nationally moving forward.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You have also completely thrown the thread completely off topic.

And what exactly is the topic, other than that NDSU people now have declared that there are two kinds of FCS conferences, just as there are two kinds of BCS conferences?

[Vitojr130]

And what exactly is the topic, other than that NDSU people now have declared that there are two kinds of FCS conferences, just as there are two kinds of BCS conferences?

And there are: The haves and the have-nots. How do you not see this?

I'm not sure what is more alarming: the fact that you believe the PL is a "major conference" or the fact that you are so blind you cannot see the parity in FCS just as there is in the BCS....

[IBleedYellow]

I know football is very important at Lehigh. Is more important than any academic endeavor? Absolutely not. But football, not wrestling, is the most important sport at Lehigh and has been for the better part of 40-50 years imo. Obviously the rivalry with Lafayette has a lot do with it but so does the local culture of football. I think Lehigh's AD would tell you directly that the programs goal is to win the national title. The amount of resources the school puts towards the program makes me believe there is a commitment.

I think Fordham has evolved into a decent football school over the last 10+ years as well. They've put a real emphasis on the sport since Clawson arrived in the late 90's.

The fact is, the PL institutions pour a lot of money into their programs, and in general, their facilities.

IMO, Lehigh should get out of their current conference and jump to another like the CAA where they can have relevance for football if that is their end goal. Yes this has way too many repercussions in other areas that I don't even want to get in, but at the end of the day the league that they are in just isn't known as a power football league, and they will suffer because of that.


Actually HC's football budget was larger than NDSU's in 2013 according to DFW's list. I don't pretend to be accountant or economist, so I'm not entirely sure what that means exactly, other than we paid a LOT more than you guys for our first downs this season.

Yes, fan enthusiasm has waned at HC (and other PL and IL schools) over the past 25 or so years but I would still say that football is very important to many of these schools alumni and fans.

It wasn't all that long ago that HC was drawing just as many (and more) fans to their home games as NDSU does today at the Fargo-Dome...hopefully with scholarships again, we can once again do the same.

Scholarships: This right here is probably my main argument. Now that we are finally at the level where almost everyone will be offering scholarships we are that much closer to a level playing field and not having two levels of FCS. I still will argue that there will be two levels of competition due to the fact that not all schools will be funding 63 scholarships. My first post was not talking about how the enthusiasm was, but where the FOCUS of the administration and the alumni's focus is. If you can't tell by now, NDSU's focus is on football. We've been a football school since the beginning. 11 National Titles later and that is still our focus and the push.


Do you REALLY want to go there with the "some schools" schtick? The Ivy League and Patriot League schools, for example, have excelled at the highest level and won championships in sports that North Dakota State University and and its "Major FCS" brethren have never heard of, while winning more football and basketball national championships that you possibly can imagine. These schools know a thing or two about operating intercollegiate athletics given the fact that they not only invented the game of college football, but they founded the NCAA as well.

Your "stay at FCS so their other sports can be Division I" rationalization might make sense to you and for an extremely narrow band of colleges - maybe a couple dozen - out of the thousands of members of the NCAA. But I have to tell you, it doesn't give rise to a, "you're clearly not understanding . . . if you honestly can't see the difference" blanket accusation to schools who always have played at the highest level and where, in some instances, a quarter (or even more) of the student population always has participated in varsity athletics.

No, I think that it is you who is "clearly not understanding" and who "honestly can't see the difference" between schools whose sports programs would be literally unaffected by the disappearance of all NCAA classifications (or even the NCAA itself), and institutions whose fundamental raison d'etre at every level would cease to exist were that to occur.

You really do embarrass yourself, mr. giant "banhammer."

Do tell me the FCS Titles that your amazing football schools have won, please? I'll even let you go to DI-AA. I already know the answer. The answer is the a WHOPPING ZERO! The fact that you bring up basketball makes your entire argument irrelevant. Your history is neat, founding the NCAA that we know and loathe.

The "stay fcs so other sports can be DI" actually has a name, which sadly I can't remember right now...but it involved keeping teams out of DIII and DII while having DI in all other sports. There CLEARLY is a reason that the FCS exists for those schools, and it allows the DII and DIII schools to not get killed all the time.

You know the schools that would be most affected if the NCAA divisions would vanish today as we know them? The bottom of the FCS (you're so called "non major" conferences) and the bottom of the FBS. There would be a homogenization that would occur where the schools at the top of the FCS would flow in with the bottom of the FBS and probably middle of the pack FBS and would play competition that is equal. Budgets would adapt to gel closer and more competition would come from it. That would leave the bottom FCS schools floundering. Considering the fact that half of those lower schools choose not to participate in NCAA Playoffs as it is, we would be left with the same schools competing at the end of the year anyway.

You attack my "Banhammer" banner? What's your problem? Do you even have a clue what it came from?


Next time one of your posters wants to announce the existence of two tiers of FCS football, tell him to come here to do it. I'm going to have fun with this (probably at NDSU's expense) for the rest of the off season. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Are you blind? There ARE two tiers of FCS football. Only a fool and a blind man couldn't see it. There are those without 63 scholarships, and those that have 63 scholarships. How hard is that to understand?


Relevant to whom? To you, Dorothy?

Well, the conferences that DESIRE TO COMPETE IN THE PLAYOFFS could care less about the teams that don't compete in the playoffs, that would make them pretty irrelevant in my book, considering I will probably never see the day we play them.


I'm going to swing this back on topic. My main post did not really talk about budgets, which was no ones fault other than my own. It was more talking about schools focus and where the administration wants to put their resources. That is my bad.


The fact that most FCS budgets are almost in the same ballpark in the 2-5M area is actually quite surprising.

[BisonBacker]

And what exactly is the topic, other than that NDSU people now have declared that there are two kinds of FCS conferences, just as there are two kinds of BCS conferences?

Go change your tampon!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I wonder why you would want to enter a schmeckle measuring contest that you know you can't win.


You don't think I can win? Just watch. xrolleyesx


And what, pray tell, is this: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/POTY%20Ubars/Grizo406.png ? Can you direct us somewhere that would demonstrate its deservedness, or did you just make that up all by yourself?

[BisonBacker]

xpopcornx

[IBleedYellow]

xpopcornx

I'm with you here. xcloud9x

[Sly Fox]

Hey, the Big South not only wasn't a major conference but didn't even make the leftover list in this thread. Now you know why we are so desperate to latch on to any FBS league.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm not sure what is more alarming: the fact that you believe the PL is a "major conference" or the fact that you are so blind you cannot see the parity in FCS just as there is in the BCS....

Please go back and find the part where I said that the PL is a "Major Conference." It's not. It's a tiny, regional conference filled with even tinier colleges.

There are no "Major" FCS schools. There are just FCS schools. If you were "Major" you'd be playing in the Windex Bowl or some such thing on New Year's Eve. But if there were no bowls, no FCS, no BCS, no NCAA, and (dare I say) no scholarships the PL would continue exactly as it is right now, without skipping a beat. Not so with NDSU, I'm afraid.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

IMO, Lehigh should get out of their current conference and jump to another like the CAA where they can have relevance for football if that is their end goal. Yes this has way too many repercussions in other areas that I don't even want to get in, but at the end of the day the league that they are in just isn't known as a power football league, and they will suffer because of that.



Scholarships: This right here is probably my main argument. Now that we are finally at the level where almost everyone will be offering scholarships we are that much closer to a level playing field and not having two levels of FCS. I still will argue that there will be two levels of competition due to the fact that not all schools will be funding 63 scholarships. My first post was not talking about how the enthusiasm was, but where the FOCUS of the administration and the alumni's focus is. If you can't tell by now, NDSU's focus is on football. We've been a football school since the beginning. 11 National Titles later and that is still our focus and the push.



Do tell me the FCS Titles that your amazing football schools have won, please? I'll even let you go to DI-AA. I already know the answer. The answer is the a WHOPPING ZERO! The fact that you bring up basketball makes your entire argument irrelevant. Your history is neat, founding the NCAA that we know and loathe.

The "stay fcs so other sports can be DI" actually has a name, which sadly I can't remember right now...but it involved keeping teams out of DIII and DII while having DI in all other sports. There CLEARLY is a reason that the FCS exists for those schools, and it allows the DII and DIII schools to not get killed all the time.

You know the schools that would be most affected if the NCAA divisions would vanish today as we know them? The bottom of the FCS (you're so called "non major" conferences) and the bottom of the FBS. There would be a homogenization that would occur where the schools at the top of the FCS would flow in with the bottom of the FBS and probably middle of the pack FBS and would play competition that is equal. Budgets would adapt to gel closer and more competition would come from it. That would leave the bottom FCS schools floundering. Considering the fact that half of those lower schools choose not to participate in NCAA Playoffs as it is, we would be left with the same schools competing at the end of the year anyway.

You attack my "Banhammer" banner? What's your problem? Do you even have a clue what it came from?



Are you blind? There ARE two tiers of FCS football. Only a fool and a blind man couldn't see it. There are those without 63 scholarships, and those that have 63 scholarships. How hard is that to understand?



Well, the conferences that DESIRE TO COMPETE IN THE PLAYOFFS could care less about the teams that don't compete in the playoffs, that would make them pretty irrelevant in my book, considering I will probably never see the day we play them.


I'm going to swing this back on topic. My main post did not really talk about budgets, which was no ones fault other than my own. It was more talking about schools focus and where the administration wants to put their resources. That is my bad.


The fact that most FCS budgets are almost in the same ballpark in the 2-5M area is actually quite surprising.

Lehigh has no reason to the leave the patriot league. It's made up of like minded institutions that actually form a legitimate conference rather than an "association" which is basically what most leagues are anymore. I honestly think the PL can and will make life difficult for the CAA. If you look at the head-2-heads of the two conferences in the playoffs from 1998 until 2005 or so, it was pretty even. I think that type of parity can be reached again.

The fact the PL has yet to win a national title is a bit skewed. Lehigh has lost a couple of heartbreakers to eventual champs. They can compete and field teams that are "championship worthy". Colgate made it to the title game but unfortunately went up against one if the most dominant teams of the last 25 years. Plus, the league had a self impose postseason ban from the 1986 until 1997. (Didn't HC win the AP national title in 1987?) So basically the league has been eligible for the title the last 15 years. In those 15 years the league has nothing to apologize for imo. The PL is to FCS what the Atlantic 10 is to college basketball....

[Sader87]

NDSU had a team for the ages this year, no doubt. But to say that the MVFC is the "SEC" to the PL or IL "Sun-Belt" is a stretch and will be even more of a reach once all the PL teams have 60 scholarships on all their rosters.

Will the top couple of teams in the MVFC be stronger than the PL's down the road? Probably, but it won't be to the extent of comparing Alabama and LSU to Georgia St or Arkansas St.

[IBleedYellow]

NDSU had a team for the ages this year, no doubt. But to say that the MVFC is the "SEC" to the PL or IL "Sun-Belt" is a stretch and will be even more of a reach once all the PL teams have 60 scholarships on all their rosters.

Will the top couple of teams in the MVFC be stronger than the PL's down the road? Probably, but it won't be to the extent of comparing Alabama and LSU to Georgia St or Arkansas St.

Do tell me where I stated the MVFC is the SEC or anything of the sort in there, please?

[Sader87]

Do tell me where I stated the MVFC is the SEC or anything of the sort in there, please?

I'm just going with the "Power Conferences in the FCS" theme that's being debated here.

I agree that the CAA, MVFC and BSC will continue to be strong due to the fact that they are largely made up of state institutions that are not big enough for the FBS-level...but to say that they will be that much better than any other fully funded scholarship league at the FCS-level is a stretch.

[Vitojr130]

Please go back and find the part where I said that the PL is a "Major Conference." It's not. It's a tiny, regional conference filled with even tinier colleges.

There are no "Major" FCS schools. There are just FCS schools. If you were "Major" you'd be playing in the Windex Bowl or some such thing on New Year's Eve. But if there were no bowls, no FCS, no BCS, no NCAA, and (dare I say) no scholarships the PL would continue exactly as it is right now, without skipping a beat. Not so with NDSU, I'm afraid.

Please go back and review your butthurt when you realized that the PL wasn't in centennials list of "major" conference.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Please go back and review your butthurt when you realized that the PL wasn't in centennials list of "major" conference.

You're serious, aren't you? Someone on the NDSU board decides to declare that FCS has "Major" conferences due to its presence and you think that makes my butt hurt? Come on, you actually think I'm all teary-eyed because I'm not on the Bison's Best list?

I just thought it was funny. Laugh-out-loud funny. It's NDSU that needs to make lists and declare itself "Major," not us. We're decidedly un-major, believe me. Try to find a post that I have ever made that suggested that my college was better or more deserving than anyone, ever. Except Lehigh of course. Because they suck. But they're also noble and enlightened adversaries and I know they all understand what I'm writing about here.

You can keep your lists and distinctions, I have no need for them except as fodder for parody.

[RichH2]

All this ado over how much $$ schools put out in FCS.Hiven various accounting schemes,tuitions,travel etc tne gross numbers are skewed and relatively meaningless as a valid comparative measure.So other the " my dick is bigger than yours" rationale underlying the topic, why are we talking about this when recruiting,coach moves are relevant for all of us.

[Dane96]

Is Albany now a "Major" FCS team?

I never said that....but Albany was listed in his post. Yell at him.

[Hammersmith]

Can I chime in since I'm the guy who put the list together in the first place?

Someone on Bisonville asked what the football budgets were in the MVFC. Someone else pointed to the annual USA Today article and database on college athletic budgets. The problem is that that database doesn't breakdown by sports. I offered the info from the Equity in Athletics database run by the Office of Postsecondary Education division of the Department of Education(http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/). It's not perfect by a long shot, but it's probably the best apples to apples source available when you need to compare all schools within a conference and then compare that group to other conferences from your subdivision and others.

The problem is that it takes some time to put the data together; it doesn't get spit out in a form that you can cut and paste into a post. After I did the MVFC, I expected people on BV would ask for other conferences(and I was a little curious myself). Again, it takes time to do the work and I couldn't do all 125ish teams at once. So I focused on the conferences with schools that BV would be most interested in. The rest would come as I had time. If someone else wants to do the work for the other conferences, feel free. All data in the original post is from the 2012-2013 fiscal year. You can go back further if you want.

Don't read more into it other than limited time and a project too big for one sitting.

(Oh, and I never used the phrase "major FCS conferences" in my BV post. Though I may have used "Big5" as a joke since I use it when referring to the 5 FBS conferences that are part of the news so often.)

[RichH2]

Hammer you tried to start a valid conversation. Not your fault that others split off to divide FCS ala FBS.

[ramMan]

There's no need to ask anyone to do any more work to calculate the numbers for the "fake" FCS conferences. DFW HOYA already has done that work and has posted it on his excellent Third Rail (http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/11/by-numbers.html) blog. Besides, it's the thought that counts.

DFW Hoya's numbers are for fiscal year 2012. Below are the FCS football budgets for FY 2013. Patriot League schools are in bold.

JamesMadison $6,986,160
Liberty $6,456,306
Delaware $6,265,337
Furman $6,150,270
Richmond $6,068,055
Villanova $5,921,525
Montana $5,896,289
Fordham $5,606,350
Samford $5,157,707
Montana State $5,044,725
William & Mary $4,971,542
Colgate $4,757,988
Coastal Carolina $4,676,316
Lafayette $4,663,596
Holy Cross $4,440,068
Stony Brook $4,399,966
Appalachian State $4,214,171
Elon $4,201,027
Lehigh $4,189,735
New Hampshire $4,142,300
North Dakota State $4,044,796
Bethune-Cookman $4,008,640
Gardner-Webb $3,915,088
Citadel $3,885,465
Wofford $3,879,148
Portland State $3,832,289
Tennessee State $3,794,982
Maine $3,756,246
Youngstown State $3,725,254
Southern Illinois $3,641,600
Jacksonville State $3,584,259
Lamar $3,582,771
UC Davis $3,566,555
Towson $3,563,136
Rhode Island $3,559,524
Georgia Southern $3,521,604
Presbyterian $3,476,972
Eastern Washington $3,444,305
Stephen F. Austin $3,410,990
Virginia Military Institute $3,345,744
Sacramento State $3,299,190
Northern Arizona $3,267,428
Idaho State $3,261,187
South Carolina State $3,253,937
Chattanooga $3,245,523
North Dakota $3,181,952
Illinois State $3,166,946
Northern Iowa $3,154,067
Bucknell $3,095,126
Eastern Illinois $3,091,837
Cal Poly $3,066,342
Sam Houston State $3,053,896
Yale $3,039,347
Western Illinois $3,007,439
Wagner $3,004,608
Alabama State $2,995,413
Hampton $2,990,654
Northern Colorado $2,965,650
Monmouth $2,964,667
Tennessee Tech $2,954,670
Florida A&M $2,951,985
Northwestern State $2,946,079
Columbia $2,926,104
Delaware State $2,880,736
Southern Utah $2,863,719
Indiana State $2,859,361
Southeastern Louisiana $2,842,750
Western Carolina $2,792,939
Charlotte $2,777,987
Eastern Kentucky $2,772,917
South Dakota State $2,723,760
Texas Southern $2,720,494
NC Central $2,709,656
Murray State $2,707,023
South Dakota $2,687,268
Weber State $2,675,532
Morgan State $2,671,554
Tennessee-Martin $2,614,504
Central Arkansas $2,602,141
Dartmouth $2,597,682
Alabama A&M $2,596,332
Harvard $2,568,945
Missouri State $2,534,968
Duquesne $2,524,618
Charleston Southern $2,508,952
Cornell $2,495,666
McNeese State $2,488,286
Princeton $2,445,689
Norfolk State $2,439,365
Pennsylvania $2,359,487
Incarnate Word $2,307,601
Bryant $2,286,619
Howard $2,278,816
Alcorn State $2,226,760
North Carolina A&T $2,212,697
Albany $2,191,690
Robert Morris $2,186,475
Prairie View A&M $2,184,367
Southeast Missouri State $2,182,015
Grambling State $2,060,211
Austin Peay $2,050,927
St. Francis $2,048,342
Nicholls State $1,997,768
Brown $1,971,265
Abilene Christian $1,967,119
Central Connecticut State $1,965,576
Savannah State $1,955,749
Sacred Heart $1,929,779
Southern University $1,804,744
Campbell $1,734,052
Georgetown $1,710,518
Arkansas-Pine Bluff $1,654,317
Jackson State $1,613,437
Jacksonville $1,260,306
San Diego $1,129,890
Davidson $1,122,844
Mississippi Valley State $1,098,231
Stetson $1,063,311
Dayton $1,046,059
Morehead State $987,153
Marist $968,943
Drake $918,926
Valparaiso $856,519
Butler $787,93

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There's no doubt that Butler got the biggest ROI! WOW!

[RichH2]

There's no doubt that Butler got the biggest ROI! WOW!


xlolx True. Didn't realize that LU had slid to the middle of the Pl in spending last year. Was not that long ago that only Gate outspent us and not by that much.

[Tribal]

Thanks, guys, I planned to leave at 9:15 to see the 10:00 start for Lone Survivor but couldn't stop reading this. Messageboards.

[Sader87]

We spent almost about $1,500,000 to beat Central Connecticut....and another $3,000,000 to beat Dartmouth and Bucknell!!!!

Money well spent actually!!! xrotatehx

[Darlinikki150]

Seems to me the PL is spending some $ for not that much return. Is coaching, recruiting, or school culture holding these teams back from becoming more prominent in playoffs or NCs?

[Sader87]

Seems to me the PL is spending some $ for not that much return. Is coaching, recruiting, or school culture holding these teams back from becoming more prominent in playoffs or NCs?

We just like to spend, spend, spend.....money be damned, we've got plenty of it. xrotatehx

[RichH2]

Bulk of that money,other than FU, is for need aid . PL only at 15 schollies last yr plus equivalencies. Going forward PL s/b much more competitive but will still be limited by AI and no red shirt rule.Even with need aid only PL always has had 1 or 2 teams each year that could compete OOC. Hopefully 60 schollies will raise those using them . PL will never have depth of talent like CAA et al but top of league will challenge the best.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Seems to me the PL is spending some $ for not that much return. Is coaching, recruiting, or school culture holding these teams back from becoming more prominent in playoffs or NCs?

At Holy Cross and Lafayette it's cultural imo. Everything else is in place to succeed. Bucknell's troubles are related to its isolated location. Being in the shadows of Penn St. doesn't help either.

Lehigh and Colgate have been nationally relevant since the PL entered the playoffs in 1997. Lafayette had a nice run about 8 years ago but couldn't sustain it.

Fordham has potential but desperately needs to improve its facilities. Their reign at the top might not last long...

Georgetown is a lost cause....

[Vitojr130]

You're serious, aren't you? Someone on the NDSU board decides to declare that FCS has "Major" conferences due to its presence and you think that makes my butt hurt? Come on, you actually think I'm all teary-eyed because I'm not on the Bison's Best list?

I just thought it was funny. Laugh-out-loud funny. It's NDSU that needs to make lists and declare itself "Major," not us. We're decidedly un-major, believe me. Try to find a post that I have ever made that suggested that my college was better or more deserving than anyone, ever. Except Lehigh of course. Because they suck. But they're also noble and enlightened adversaries and I know they all understand what I'm writing about here.

You can keep your lists and distinctions, I have no need for them except as fodder for parody.

But you see, we aren't just considering NDSU "major", but moreso our conference. This is all in reference to the FCS and FCS only. There IS a parity whether you think so or not. On one end, you have the MVFC, CAA, Big Sky, etc. and on the other you have the Pioneer, NEC, etc. etc. If you do not think there is a difference, then there is no reasoning with you.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Seems to me the PL is spending some $ for not that much return. Is coaching, recruiting, or school culture holding these teams back from becoming more prominent in playoffs or NCs?

This is oversimplified, but it illustrates the issue.

60 scholarships times $60,000/yr tuition = $3,600,000 a year in financial aid
63 scholarships times $15,000/yr tuition = less than $1 million a year in financial aid

[Bisonwinagn]

Patriot League needs to be here....it is right on par with the new SoCon

Patriot league is no different than the Pioneer league. They should just combine the two leagues and have an east and west division.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Patriot league is no different than the Pioneer league. They should just combine the two leagues and have an east and west division.

Not enough travel for us. But it's a thought. Move a couple of letters around and you're there.

Do you have a phone number for "They?" It doesn't seem to be listed.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Patriot league is no different than the Pioneer league. They should just combine the two leagues and have an east and west division.

I think the PL schools should just purchase the PFL institutions and make them their Midwest satellite campuses. Lehigh could simply buy Valparaiso to ensure Cecchini remains on the coaching staff. Butler would be a great get for Bucknell's hoop program....

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think the PL schools should just purchase the PFL institutions and make them their Midwest satellite campuses. Lehigh could simply buy Valparaiso to ensure Cecchini remains on the coaching staff. Butler would be a great get for Bucknell's hoop program....

Works for me. I'm calling dibs on Stetson. A nice warm climate for the holidays.

Crusaders or Colgate might want to lock up San Diego before it's too late.




EDIT - Georgetown might consider purchasing Drake - get an early jump on those Iowa caucuses from a prime location.

[ngineer]

I know football is very important at Lehigh. Is more important than any academic endeavor? Absolutely not. But football, not wrestling, is the most important sport at Lehigh and has been for the better part of 40-50 years imo. Obviously the rivalry with Lafayette has a lot do with it but so does the local culture of football. I think Lehigh's AD would tell you directly that the programs goal is to win the national title. The amount of resources the school puts towards the program makes me believe there is a commitment.

I think Fordham has evolved into a decent football school over the last 10+ years as well. They've put a real emphasis on the sport since Clawson arrived in the late 90's.

The fact is, the PL institutions pour a lot of money into their programs, and in general, their facilities.

I really can't agree with this as an "absolute" statement. I agree the 'tie' with Lafayette makes football more visible to a greater audience, but in terms of national prominence within the athletic world, the wrestling program has been by far the most renowned. Numerous articles in Sports Illustrated, NY Times, USA Today, etc. have put the spot light consistently on the wrestling program, and I dare say if you went to the Midwest and asked people on the street what Lehigh was known for, athletically, (assuming they were familiar with college sports), more would recognize Lehigh for its wrestling program than football. This is not to play down the importance of the football program. As a former player, I am a huge supporter of our school and love to see us striving to become relevant on a national level,consistently, without sacrificing the academics. As I started out, depending on who you talk to will get you different answers. But being the 5th all-time in NCAA champions in wrestling, as well as 7th or 8th in All-Americans places the wrestling program in unique company with the "major" national powers from the Big Ten, Big 12 and EIWA. We are also in the top 5-7 annually in attendance, with the Arena usually at least 85% full. The Lehigh Wrestling Club is now consistently around 1,000 members each year, which for such a small school is amazing, and is the largest in the East (PSU being considered Big Ten, and of course 10 times bigger).

So there is a constant 'rivalry' for dollars within the athletic department at Lehigh, not only due to football and wrestling, but basketball is trying to make effort at making a name, building off the Duke upset a couple years ago, and lacrosse is now consistently in the top 20 with a great young new coach, as with b-ball. Keeping Caccesse and Reed at Lehigh will be difficult. All of this means that Lehigh alums and friends have to step up if they want to see football 'get to the next level'. There is no 'state budget' and the University will not sacrifice its academic budget for athletics, despite recognizing its importance to the overall student development. The PL schools are therefore constrained in reliance on private donors if they want to spend that which is necessary to staff and equip a program that can challenge for a national title at this level.

[superman7515]

if you can't see that there are at LEAST two tiers of FCS football you've got your headquarters where your hindquarters ought to be.

Power Conferences

Patriot, IVY

Pioneer

SWAC


Hey, the Big South not only wasn't a major conference but didn't even make the leftover list in this thread. Now you know why we are so desperate to latch on to any FBS league.

Don't feel bad Sly Fox, the MEAC and OVC are right there with ya. Wherever "there" is.

[citdog]

You don't think I can win? Just watch. xrolleyesx


And what, pray tell, is this: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/POTY%20Ubars/Grizo406.png ? Can you direct us somewhere that would demonstrate its deservedness, or did you just make that up all by yourself?



you had every opportunity to vote against me. the thread was up for over a week. thanks to the members who voted!

- - - Updated - - -


You don't think I can win? Just watch. xrolleyesx


And what, pray tell, is this: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/POTY%20Ubars/Grizo406.png ? Can you direct us somewhere that would demonstrate its deservedness, or did you just make that up all by yourself?



you had every opportunity to vote against me. the thread was up for over a week. thanks to the members who voted!

[Bogus Megapardus]

This is oversimplified, but it illustrates the issue.

60 scholarships times $60,000/yr tuition = $3,600,000 a year in financial aid
63 scholarships times $15,000/yr tuition = less than $1 million a year in financial aid

Exactly. And the unusually high overall cost at New Hampshire and Delaware, for example, reflect that the vast majority of players at those schools come from out of state; scholarship costs for those students (presumably) are calculated at out-of-state rates.

[Bogus Megapardus]

you had every opportunity to vote against me. the thread was up for over a week. thanks to the members who voted!

Who was your opponent? Was it a damned Yankee aggressor?

And BTW, I still think I'll win the schmecklmania. Pure octagon.

[citdog]

Don't feel bad Sly Fox, the MEAC and OVC are right there with ya. Wherever "there" is.


the big South and OVC are now included in the power conferences. damn Supe keep up Bro

[kalm]

the big South and OVC are now included in the power conferences. damn Supe keep up Bro

The OVC, Big South, and Patriot are power conferences, B. Some strides have been made, seperating them a bit from the NEC and MEAC, but they need deeper runs to legitimize.

[citdog]

Who was your opponent? Was it a damned Yankee aggressor?

And BTW, I still think I'll win the schmecklmania. Pure octagon.

my opponent should have won. i've been mailing it in for YEARS now.

[Tribal]

And BTW, I still think I'll win the schmecklmania. Pure octagon.

No cops.

[MplsBison]

The numbers aren't correct. They are calculating debt service as well.

For example, game day expenses at UA and SBU are around the same...approximately 600,000 dollars. SBU doesn't shell out huge money as a "money game" provider to visiting schools, and neither will Albany. SBU has 63 rides while UA, at the time of the OPE report, had 38 rides. The cost of attendance, and how it is calculated as in-state vs.out-of-state, are similar. Coaching salary is about the same across staffs, as are recruiting budgets.

Yet, with only 28 more scholarships SBU spends nearly more than double that of Albany?

This can only happen if they are counting the stadium debt service as a cost.

Would LOVE to see the line items that go into each of the above numbers, because undoubtedly they're not consistent school to school.

[thebootfitter]

But you see, we aren't just considering NDSU "major", but moreso our conference. This is all in reference to the FCS and FCS only. There IS a parity whether you think so or not. On one end, you have the MVFC, CAA, Big Sky, etc. and on the other you have the Pioneer, NEC, etc. etc. If you do not think there is a difference, then there is no reasoning with you.
Parity. You keep saying that. At first, I thought perhaps it was just a typo. I do not think that word means quite what you think it means. I think maybe you might mean "disparity" instead?

par·i·ty1
ˈparitē/
noun



1.
the state or condition of being equal, esp. regarding status or pay.
"parity of incomes between rural workers and those in industrial occupations"


synonyms:
equality (https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=93&q=define+equality&sa=X&ei=I3rUUpL3J7XNsQSyzICIBQ&ved=0CC0Q_SowAA), equivalence (https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=93&q=define+equivalence&sa=X&ei=I3rUUpL3J7XNsQSyzICIBQ&ved=0CC4Q_SowAA), uniformity (https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=93&q=define+uniformity&sa=X&ei=I3rUUpL3J7XNsQSyzICIBQ&ved=0CC8Q_SowAA), consistency (https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=93&q=define+consistency&sa=X&ei=I3rUUpL3J7XNsQSyzICIBQ&ved=0CDAQ_SowAA), correspondence (https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=93&q=define+correspondence&sa=X&ei=I3rUUpL3J7XNsQSyzICIBQ&ved=0CDEQ_SowAA),congruity, levelness, unity (https://www.google.com/search?espv=210&es_sm=93&q=define+unity&sa=X&ei=I3rUUpL3J7XNsQSyzICIBQ&ved=0CDIQ_SowAA), coequality More

[Bogus Megapardus]

I do not think that word means quite what you think it means.








http://www.wired.com/geekdad/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/mp2.gif




.

[jmufan999]

Appreciate the effort in compiling the info, but comparing budgets, particularly from one conference to another, is apples and oranges due to the disparity in scholarship costs, and in some cases travel costs.

going to get philosophical here. i think people nowadays have taken the term "apples and oranges" and just throw it out whenever they don't like something.

it's not apples and oranges. it's apples and apples, or oranges and oranges. it's a very clear, definable list.

now HOW YOU INTERPRET that list is up to you, and what other variables (revenue sources, private vs. public, etc.) you add to the equation is up to you.

but the list itself is NOT apples and oranges.

[RichH2]

going to get philosophical here. i think people nowadays have taken the term "apples and oranges" and just throw it out whenever they don't like something.

it's not apples and oranges. it's apples and apples, or oranges and oranges. it's a very clear, definable list.

now HOW YOU INTERPRET that list is up to you, and what other variables (revenue sources, private vs. public, etc.) you add to the equation is up to you.

but the list itself is NOT apples and oranges.
Perhaps so but while the numbers are entitled the same ,there is no assurance that those numbers were arrived at by the same methods or using the same input..

[lionsrking2]

going to get philosophical here. i think people nowadays have taken the term "apples and oranges" and just throw it out whenever they don't like something.

it's not apples and oranges. it's apples and apples, or oranges and oranges. it's a very clear, definable list.

now HOW YOU INTERPRET that list is up to you, and what other variables (revenue sources, private vs. public, etc.) you add to the equation is up to you.

but the list itself is NOT apples and oranges.

You're not being "philosophical" as much as being technical. While you may be technically correct, practically speaking the comparisons are indeed apples and oranges in many cases. If you're comparing similar programs from similar states and/or conferences, then it may be more apples to apples.

[Bill]

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/mp2.gif







.

Now, prepare to die :)

[centennial]

This thread still going. Apples and oranges, parity? Fun.

[RichH2]

Apples, oranges what poppycock. Kiwis its all Kiwis.

[jmrepak]

The OVC, Big South, and Patriot are power conferences, B. Some strides have been made, seperating them a bit from the NEC and MEAC, but they need deeper runs to legitimize.
I don't think I agree with the Patriot being considered a power conference. Fordham had a great year, and they very well may sustain it. However, a 2-bid league when one of them was 5-6 cannot be considered a power conference. They still have some work to do. Also, I know everyone from the Patriot are going to say where was the Big South's 2nd bid. My proper response would be, it was occupied by the patriot league through a technicality since Fordham deserved to be in, but couldn't win the autobid. That wouldn't happen in any other year.

The OVC looks better, and I do believe that if the Big South Conference can hold some of the gains outside of Coastal then we should be in good shape to be a top 5 or 6 conference on GPI this year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't think I agree with the Patriot being considered a power conference.

The Patriot League is not a Power Conference. It has never been a Power Conference. It will never be a Power Conference.

This is the FCS. There are no Power Conferences. Just conferences. To paraphrase carney2 - if you want Power Conference, go buy a plastic hog nose and hang a pork chop around your neck.

[RichH2]

The Patriot League is not a Power Conference. It has never been a Power Conference. It will never be a Power Conference.

This is the FCS. There are no Power Conferences. Just conferences. To paraphrase carney2 - if you want Power Conference, go buy a plastic hog nose and hang a pork chop around your neck.


+ 1

[Franks Tanks]

I don't think I agree with the Patriot being considered a power conference. Fordham had a great year, and they very well may sustain it. However, a 2-bid league when one of them was 5-6 cannot be considered a power conference. They still have some work to do. Also, I know everyone from the Patriot are going to say where was the Big South's 2nd bid. My proper response would be, it was occupied by the patriot league through a technicality since Fordham deserved to be in, but couldn't win the autobid. That wouldn't happen in any other year.

The OVC looks better, and I do believe that if the Big South Conference can hold some of the gains outside of Coastal then we should be in good shape to be a top 5 or 6 conference on GPI this year.

That would be an incorrect response. Yes, Fordham was ineligible for the PL auto-bid, but even if eligible they wouldn't have been granted the autobid. Lafayette beat Fordham and won the PL title and the autobid fair and square.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I don't think I agree with the Patriot being considered a power conference. Fordham had a great year, and they very well may sustain it. However, a 2-bid league when one of them was 5-6 cannot be considered a power conference. They still have some work to do. Also, I know everyone from the Patriot are going to say where was the Big South's 2nd bid. My proper response would be, it was occupied by the patriot league through a technicality since Fordham deserved to be in, but couldn't win the autobid. That wouldn't happen in any other year.

The OVC looks better, and I do believe that if the Big South Conference can hold some of the gains outside of Coastal then we should be in good shape to be a top 5 or 6 conference on GPI this year.

If you expand the sample size beyond one year the PL has been pretty good relative to the Big South and OVC. Lehigh and Fordham have both finished in the Top 10 the last few years. If nothing else, I think all three conferences need to be defined by their top because the cellar dwellers are equally bad. They're not going to win any "depth" competitions.....

[BisonBacker]

The Patriot League is not a Power Conference. It has never been a Power Conference. It will never be a Power Conference.

This is the FCS. There are no Power Conferences. Just conferences. To paraphrase carney2 - if you want Power Conference, go buy a plastic hog nose and hang a pork chop around your neck.

May I suggest you change the your avatar to this...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FZ4J-5IN3p4/UYzbtyRaq8I/AAAAAAAADYI/HhEc-Xa_BlM/s1600/ostrich.jpg

[Bogus Megapardus]

May I suggest you change the your avatar to this...

You're right. Enough of the suggestizing and the avatorials.






http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/827/v2hj.png




There. That oughta slice the cheddar. Feel better now?

[centennial]

You're right. Enough of the suggestizing and the avatorials.





http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/526/v2hj.png





There. That oughta slice the cheddar. Feel better now?
You've got a lot of free time to Photoshop that. Creative.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You've got a lot of free time to Photoshop that.

It took me about seven minutes and a cup of coffee. And I didn't even have to use Photoshop.

I coulda done it faster (and better) if I'd been in a Power Conference, though.

[centennial]

It took me about seven minutes and a cup of coffee.

I coulda done it faster (and better) if I'd been in a Power Conferences, though.
Maybe Lafayette could be a power Photoshopping school? Excuse my poor Photoshopping skills.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18764&d=1389728915

[Fox 94]

You're clearly not understanding how some schools choose FCS football. For some: It's the biggest part of their school. Football is the main show at the campuses which were listed above. Can you honestly tell me that Football is what runs the show in some of the Patriot or Pioneer leagues? It's a totally different mindset. Some schools are football driven, while others are basketball driven, but stay at the FCS so that the rest of their sports can be DI.

The major FCS conferences generally speaking push their football more. I know of a big exception in the Valley of UNI, they prefer to be known as a basketball school and football second.

It's not BS, it's reality, and something that I'm starting to not like about the FCS. Some teams use it as a "we're DI for all other sports, better have FCS football." While others (NDSU, SDSU, others) go "We want to be able to have a shot at going for National Titles at the highest level of competition where we aren't thrown away for obscurity, and actually have a shot at the Title." IE: FCS > FBS for those schools. If you honestly can't see the difference, that's your fault.

The rest of the sports being division 1 is what forces pioneer schools to play at FCS, so says the NCAA. It is true football is secondary at PFL schools. It is also true they believe in playing football. Most people here agree that playing football is better than not playing football so the PFL schools play football at the level the NCAA tells them to. Take your beef to the NCAA and not to the PFL schools who would happily play D3 football if they can keep their Very competitive D1 hoops programs.

although Marist will never win the national championship I will still be attending games enjoying every minute of watching some of the finest student athletes compete in a beautiful setting regardless of what you think.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Maybe Lafayette could be a power Photoshopping school? Excuse my poor Photoshopping skills.



I'll let citdog be the judge but that was pretty weak, centennial. All you got?

[Bogus Megapardus]

The rest of the sports being division 1 is what forces pioneer schools to play at FCS, so says the NCAA. It is true football is secondary at PFL schools. It is also true they believe in playing football. Most people here agree that playing football is better than not playing football so the PFL schools play football at the level the NCAA tells them to. Take your beef to the NCAA and not to the PFL schools who would happily play D3 football if they can keep their Very competitive D1 hoops programs.

although Marist will never win the national championship I will still be attending games enjoying every minute of watching some of the finest student athletes compete in a beautiful setting regardless of what you think.

Fox 94, I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit (without being a contrarian, I hope). I think I have a decent feel for Marist - several family members have attended and one acquaintance of mine is on faculty. At its essence Marist really is not much different than Bucknell or Lafayette or Wagner or Sacred Heart. Just like those schools Marist plays football for reasons much different from the reasons that most other FCS institutions play football. Marist plays because it wants to, not because it must. I think that if you polled current Marist students and alumni, and even faculty, I think you'd find that they'd be very much against a drop to Division III football even if such a drop (while permitting other DI sports) were to be permitted by the NCAA.

The culture at Marist is not at all similar to the culture, for example, at Marist's cross-town neighbor, Vassar College. Notions of physical well-being and competitive enthusiasm are anathema at Vassar. Not so at Marist. While Red Fox basketball and lacrosse certainly trump football for the time being in your corner of Poughkeepsie, the institution has demonstrated its gridiron support in spades in recent years. Red Fox football will only get better.

[caribbeanhen]

It took me about seven minutes and a cup of coffee. And I didn't even have to use Photoshop.

I coulda done it faster (and better) if I'd been in a Power Conference, though.

be interesting to see the other side of the Avatar as who would you put as the face of the conference so to speak

[Bogus Megapardus]

be interesting to see the other side of the Avatar as who would you put as the face of the conference so to speak

I would do that, but I have no idea what MplsBison looks like.

[centennial]

I'll let citdog be the judge but that was pretty weak, centennial. All you got?
Sorry, I've offended enough "non-major" FCS football fans. Find someone else to teach how to use parity...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

be interesting to see the other side of the Avatar as who would you put as the face of the conference so to speak


I would do that, but I have no idea what MplsBison looks like.

My question is, would they, combined, have a full set of teeth?

[Bogus Megapardus]

My proper response would be, it was occupied by the patriot league through a technicality since Fordham deserved to be in, but couldn't win the autobid. That wouldn't happen in any other year.

We've debated this pretty thoroughly on the various PL boards but we're always open to a different point of view.

From your chair, how would the 2013 FCS Tournament, its seedings and its pairings have been different had Fordham been eligible to win the 2013 Patriot League autobid? Which of the two Patriot League teams that gained entry to the tournament (Fordham and Lafayette) would not have done so, and why? To a person all of the national analysts, including those at ESPN and CBS Sports, concluded that the tournament would have been exactly the same - including both entries from the Patriot League - regardless of whether Fordham was eligible for the Patriot League autobid or not. I can provide links to video analyses from those sources if you like.

I don't mean this to be factitious in any way. I'm simply interested in your take on it with a brief explanation of how the PL would have wound up with less than two bids for the 2013 tournament.

[Bogus Megapardus]

My question is, would they, combined, have a full set of teeth?

Possibly. But my graphics software doesn't do that color.

[BisonBacker]

You're right. Enough of the suggestizing and the avatorials.





http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/827/v2hj.png





There. That oughta slice the cheddar. Feel better now?
I have to give you credit that's some grade "A" smack.

[danefan]

We've debated this pretty thoroughly on the various PL boards but we're always open to a different point of view.

From your chair, how would the 2013 FCS Tournament, its seedings and its pairings have been different had Fordham been eligible to win the 2013 Patriot League autobid? Which of the two Patriot League teams that gained entry to the tournament (Fordham and Lafayette) would not have done so, and why? To a person all of the national analysts, including those at ESPN and CBS Sports, concluded that the tournament would have been exactly the same - including both entries from the Patriot League - regardless of whether Fordham was eligible for the Patriot League autobid or not. I can provide links to video analyses from those sources if you like.

I don't mean this to be factitious in any way. I'm simply interested in your take on it with a brief explanation of how the PL would have wound up with less than two bids for the 2013 tournament.

You really think (use your objective mind here) that a 5-6 Lafayette team would have gotten an at-large bid?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You really think (use your objective mind here) that a 5-6 Lafayette team would have gotten an at-large bid?

Lafayette would have won the automatic bid anyway, since they would have ended up with an identical conference record as Fordham and won the head-to-head matchup. Fordham, based on their FBS win and wins over at least two ranked opponents (Villanova and Lehigh), were a strong at-large candidate. No prognosticators of the field had them out of the playoffs.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You really think (use your objective mind here) that a 5-6 Lafayette team would have gotten an at-large bid?

Of course not. And it's mighty awkward to be in the playoffs with a losing record. But Lafayette won its conference title and because of that it received an automatic bid regardless of its record. Under no circumstances would Lafayette have been awarded an at-large spot if Colgate or Lehigh had won the conference.

But that doesn't answer the question.

[danefan]

Lafayette would have won the automatic bid anyway, since they would have ended up with an identical conference record as Fordham and won the head-to-head matchup. Fordham, based on their FBS win and wins over at least two ranked opponents (Villanova and Lehigh), were a strong at-large candidate. No prognosticators of the field had them out of the playoffs.

Fordham was in. No doubt. Bogus seemed to be indicating that Lafayette would have been an at-large team. If they win the AQ of course they're in and so is Fordham.

- - - Updated - - -


Of course not. And it's mighty awkward to be in the playoffs with a losing record. But Lafayette won its conference title and because of that it received an automatic bid regardless of its record. Under no circumstances would Lafayette have been awarded an at-large spot if Colgate or Lehigh had won the conference.

But that doesn't answer the question.

I read your post wrong then.

[DoubleH]

and FargoBison is in the lead for 2014 most humorous poster of the year award.

http://www.jockeysroom.com/TightFinish.jpg
The Southern Conference is just fine and will remain one of the top 3 leagues far into the future.
The Patsy league is getting better but still has a WAYS to go to be relevant. Their champion was completely dismantled in the first round and fordham was overrated by at least 10 spots in the poll this year.

I disagree, kicker. Granted, the bottom of the Patriot League was bad, but Lehigh was good (choking away the auto-bid notwithstanding) and would have, at a minimum, been competitive in any conference. Fordham, who I saw in person, was very good and would have won the SoCon had they been in it this year.

Saying the PL is a ways off is not accurate, the best team from the league was one of the best teams in the country, and I'd expect the PL as a whole to get even better going forward as they continue to implement scholarships. Even when they were "non-scholarship", the top team or two was pretty good; depth in the conference was weak but that likely won't be the case in the very near future.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I have to give you credit that's some grade "A" smack.

Grade "A" smack would have been to exclude the MVFC and put the Big Sky up there instead. I considered it.

[BisonBacker]

Grade "A" smack would have been to exclude the MVFC and put the Big Sky up there instead. I considered it.
No actually now that I think of it Grade A would have been if you had added a turd down below one of those backsides and labeled it Big SKY xlolx

[citdog]

I disagree, kicker. Granted, the bottom of the Patriot League was bad, but Lehigh was good (choking away the auto-bid notwithstanding) and would have, at a minimum, been competitive in any conference. Fordham, who I saw in person, was very good and would have won the SoCon had they been in it this year.

Saying the PL is a ways off is not accurate, the best team from the league was one of the best teams in the country, and I'd expect the PL as a whole to get even better going forward as they continue to implement scholarships. Even when they were "non-scholarship", the top team or two was pretty good; depth in the conference was weak but that likely won't be the case in the very near future.

here is what you patsy fellas don't or WON'T understand. when you play SOMEBODY EVERY WEEK it is tougher than when only two of the teams in your league are any good. there were five teams in the SoCon this year that were better than the rams. vermin, chatt, pigs ass, samford, and woffy.

[citdog]

Lafayette would have won the automatic bid anyway, since they would have ended up with an identical conference record as Fordham and won the head-to-head matchup. Fordham, based on their FBS win and wins over at least two ranked opponents (Villanova and Lehigh), were a strong at-large candidate. No prognosticators of the field had them out of the playoffs.

temple=SUCKS
le high= sucks less than temple


see the pattern?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

temple=SUCKS
le high= sucks less than temple


see the pattern?

And both Lehigh and Temple suck less than your mother, except that one regrettable nooner....

[citdog]

And both Lehigh and Temple suck less than your mother, except that one regrettable nooner....


more gentlemanly good deportment being displayed by the above poster. he's just pissed that my Mother's school has patriot league academics and GOOD FOOTBALL.....at HALF the price even!

[Sonic98]

Ok, so where can I get the most accurate and most current budget numbers?

[centennial]

Ok, so where can I get the most accurate and most current budget numbers?
I can't believe you resurrected this train wreck.. the NCAA publishes a spreadsheet that someone on Bisonville used to calculate these numbers. No idea where it is located however.

[344Johnson]

Should also note that the numbers are very messed up.... Scholarships cost different amounts at different schools.

[BisonBacker]

Hammersmith on bisonville posted football budgets for some FCS conferences. Thought they would make interesting conversation.
Big Sky
Montana $5,896,289
Montana State $6,955,242 $6,955,242
Portland State $3,832,289
UC Davis $3,566,555
Eastern Washington $3,444,305
Sacramento State $3,299,190
Northern Arizona $3,267,428
Idaho State $3,261,187
North Dakota $3,181,952
Cal Poly $3,066,342
Northern Colorado $2,965,650
Weber State $2,675,532
Southern Utah $2,333,902


Colonial
James Madison $6,986,160
Delaware $6,265,337
Richmond $6,068,055
Villanova $5,921,525
William & Mary $4,971,542
Stony Brook $4,399,966
New Hampshire $4,142,300
Maine $3,756,246
Towson $3,563,136
Rhode Island $3,559,524
Albany $2,191,690


MVFC
North Dakota State $4,044,796
Youngstown State $3,725,254
Southern Illinois $3,641,600
Northern Iowa $3,154,067
Illinois State $3,166,946
Western Illinois $3,007,439
Indiana State $2,859,361
South Dakota State $2,723,760
South Dakota $2,687,268
Missouri State $2,534,968


Southern
Furman $6,150,270
Samford $5,157,707
Appalachian State $4,214,171
Elon $4,201,027
Citadel $3,885,465
Wofford $3,879,148
Georgia Southern $3,521,604
Chattanooga $3,245,523
Western Carolina $2,792,939


Southland
Lamar $3,582,771
Stephen F. Austin $3,410,990
Sam Houston State $3,053,896
Northwestern State $2,946,079
SE Louisiana $2,842,750
Central Arkansas $2,602,141
McNeese State $2,488,286
Nicholls State $1,997,768
Houston Baptist NA

Updated numbers Note that the website I got these numbers from may not be the same source as the original poster and likely isn't. With that being said here is the source I got these numbers from. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/
Note you will have to search for each college. I only did the following from the original list as some of these schools are no longer FCS and I didn't want to take the time to do all of them. If you want you can take a look yourself. Also the website doesn't list the year for which these numbers were reported so I can only assume it was the last year that numbers were reported by the colleges so take that for what it's worth it maybe 2019 or 2020, YMMV. I also found it very interesting that so many colleges reported an exact expense versus revenue for football ie no profit or loss. Must be some real accounting gymnastics going on there. In any event if there is a reported profit or loss I included it with the reported budget number. If you only see one number by each school they reported the exact same amount for their expense vs. profit. You can read into that what you want.

So anyway I thought this was an appropriate thread to revive since there has been so much talk about NDSU and "Oil Money" on other forums along with all kinds of other crazy conspiracy theories. So here you go folks dig in and if you think these numbers are off show your sources. They could be but it's what I found on this website and no I didn't spend a ton of time looking for other sources. I did enough to rekindle this conversation so have at it.

Big Sky
Montana $5,747,021 (Reported Profit of 2.8million)
Montana State $6,955,242 (Reported Profit of 1.7 Million)
Portland State $4,092,668 (Reported Profit of 470K)
UC Davis $5,754,648
Eastern Washington $6,739,278 (Reported loss of $1.00)
Sacramento State $5,515,779
Northern Arizona $5,002,914
Idaho State $3,993,358
Cal Poly $4,546,931
Northern Colorado $3,882,353
Weber State $4,092,794
Southern Utah $3,762,056 (Reported Profit of 620K)


Colonial
James Madison $10,649,299
Delaware $7,844,569 (Claimed a 460K Profit)
Richmond $7,031,345
Villanova $6,765,161
William & Mary $7,073,588
Stony Brook $5,162,317 (A 913K reported Loss)
New Hampshire $5,264,384
Maine $4,287,134
Towson $4,822,097
Rhode Island $4,667,164 (Reported 15K profit)
Albany $4,910,081 (Reported 460k profit)


MVFC
North Dakota State $6,048,728
Youngstown State $4,349,972
Southern Illinois $4,212,321
Northern Iowa $4,281,286
Illinois State $4,429,532
Western Illinois $3,100,811
Indiana State $4,256,090 (A reported 244k net profit)
South Dakota State $3,950,727
South Dakota $4,031,135
Missouri State $3,846,066
North Dakota $4,965,053 (NOW MVFC)

[BisonBacker]

One more thing. I found it quite interesting how some of these schools budgets changed over the years and yet some stayed close to the same yet 7 or 8 years have passed.

[DFW HOYA]

Colonial
James Madison $10,649,299
Delaware $7,844,569 (Claimed a 460K Profit)
Richmond $7,031,345
Villanova $6,765,161
William & Mary $7,073,588
Stony Brook $5,162,317 (A 913K reported Loss)
New Hampshire $5,264,384
Maine $4,287,134
Towson $4,822,097
Rhode Island $4,667,164 (Reported 15K profit)
Albany $4,910,081 (Reported 460k profit)


For comparison purposes using the same web site, the one-bid Patriot League:

Fordham: $7,594,200
Lafayette: $6,840,900
Colgate: $6,743,022
Bucknell: $6,192,470
Lehigh: $5,696,420
Holy Cross: $5,605,872
Georgetown: $2,349,037

[nodak651]

PSA PSA PSA PSA !!!!!!!!!!!
Matt Brown has been compiling the actual source documents which contain broken down revenue and expense account info. Please take a look at his database of University NCAA Financial Reports found here: https://www.extrapointsmb.com/foia-directory/

[BisonBacker]

PSA PSA PSA PSA !!!!!!!!!!!
Matt Brown has been compiling the actual source documents which contain broken down revenue and expense account info. Please take a look at his database of University NCAA Financial Reports found here: https://www.extrapointsmb.com/foia-directory/

You have to subscribe for that site to read the full documents for each school. No thanks.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fun fact:

If you're Lehigh and your scholarshipping 60 equivalent players and the price is $60K per scholarship: $3,600,000 in scholarship costs
If you're NDSU and you're scholarshipping 63 players and the price is $20K per scholarship: $1,260,000 in scholarship costs

Conclusion: Raw budgets are not a meaningful stat. You have to take into account these differing scholarship costs. And even then, as anyone will tell you, these are "full sticker price" scholarships, amounts which most regular students might not pay. So there's a lot of weirdness in these numbers.

[Friday I'm in Love]

If you fast forward to 1:55, they are listed by conference. FCS ranking on left chart, approximate budget on right chart. But the video is from June, so it's not up-to-date on future alignments.


https://youtu.be/gYtGUNsquzI

[BisonBacker]

Fun fact:

If you're Lehigh and your scholarshipping 60 equivalent players and the price is $60K per scholarship: $3,600,000 in scholarship costs
If you're NDSU and you're scholarshipping 63 players and the price is $20K per scholarship: $1,260,000 in scholarship costs

Conclusion: Raw budgets are not a meaningful stat. You have to take into account these differing scholarship costs. And even then, as anyone will tell you, these are "full sticker price" scholarships, amounts which most regular students might not pay. So there's a lot of weirdness in these numbers.

Fun Fact:

Budgets are Budgets. I don't give a rats ass if you go to a high priced college or a Land Grant college it's all ****ing expensive these days. The fact that some schools charge insane tuition rates is your ****ing problem if you choose to go to one them. Like I said 4 year degrees are insanely expensive. Bottom line the football budgets are more than just scholarship costs and everyone talks about budgets. If you want to try to make the apples to oranges argument because you support a school with insane tuition rates you can pound sand.

[nodak651]

You have to subscribe for that site to read the full documents for each school. No thanks.

That section of the website is free. The individual documents were originally all hosted on Scribd, which may require a fee after a certain number of page views, however, he is converting all of these reports so they can be directly downloaded from his website, free of charge. He seems to be doing this in alphabetical order, as schools that start with letters a-c can already be downloaded directly from his website, rather than through scribd. I have a Scribd account, so if you know of a good place for me to upload the files, I would be happy to do so so you can take a look at them, if you're interested.

[BisonBacker]

That section of the website is free. The individual documents were originally all hosted on Scribd,which may require a fee after a certain number of page views, however, he is converting all of these reports so they can be directly downloaded from his website, free of charge. He seems to be doing this in alphabetical order, as schools that start with letters a-c can already be downloaded directly from his website, rather than through scribd. I have a Scribd account, so if you know of a good place for me to upload the files, I would be happy to do so so you can take a look at them, if you're interested.

I'll have to go back and look again. I clicked on your link and started reading and only got so far before it said I could create a free 30 day trial and after that it was a subscription based service.

[JSUSoutherner]

If you fast forward to 1:55, they are listed by conference. FCS ranking on left chart, approximate budget on right chart. But the video is from June, so it's not up-to-date on future alignments.


https://youtu.be/gYtGUNsquzI
I'd be interested on where they are getting their numbers because the numbers I have show JSU at around $7m right now.

[Friday I'm in Love]

The first slide says the numbers are pulled from Dept of Education Equity in Athletics for 2019-2020. I’m guessing there’s a 2-year lag between each school submitting their numbers and the DOE releasing them. So that leaves room for schools like JSU to increase budgets in the 2-year interim.

[BisonBacker]

Updated numbers Note that the website I got these numbers from may not be the same source as the original poster and likely isn't. With that being said here is the source I got these numbers from. https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/
Note you will have to search for each college. I only did the following from the original list as some of these schools are no longer FCS and I didn't want to take the time to do all of them. If you want you can take a look yourself. Also the website doesn't list the year for which these numbers were reported so I can only assume it was the last year that numbers were reported by the colleges so take that for what it's worth it maybe 2019 or 2020, YMMV. I also found it very interesting that so many colleges reported an exact expense versus revenue for football ie no profit or loss. Must be some real accounting gymnastics going on there. In any event if there is a reported profit or loss I included it with the reported budget number. If you only see one number by each school they reported the exact same amount for their expense vs. profit. You can read into that what you want.

So anyway I thought this was an appropriate thread to revive since there has been so much talk about NDSU and "Oil Money" on other forums along with all kinds of other crazy conspiracy theories. So here you go folks dig in and if you think these numbers are off show your sources. They could be but it's what I found on this website and no I didn't spend a ton of time looking for other sources. I did enough to rekindle this conversation so have at it.

Big Sky
Montana $5,747,021 (Reported Profit of 2.8million)
Montana State $6,955,242 (Reported Profit of 1.7 Million)
Portland State $4,092,668 (Reported Profit of 470K)
UC Davis $5,754,648
Eastern Washington $6,739,278 (Reported loss of $1.00)
Sacramento State $5,515,779
Northern Arizona $5,002,914
Idaho State $3,993,358
Cal Poly $4,546,931
Northern Colorado $3,882,353
Weber State $4,092,794
Southern Utah $3,762,056 (Reported Profit of 620K)


Colonial
James Madison $10,649,299
Delaware $7,844,569 (Claimed a 460K Profit)
Richmond $7,031,345
Villanova $6,765,161
William & Mary $7,073,588
Stony Brook $5,162,317 (A 913K reported Loss)
New Hampshire $5,264,384
Maine $4,287,134
Towson $4,822,097
Rhode Island $4,667,164 (Reported 15K profit)
Albany $4,910,081 (Reported 460k profit)


MVFC
North Dakota State $6,048,728
Youngstown State $4,349,972
Southern Illinois $4,212,321
Northern Iowa $4,281,286
Illinois State $4,429,532
Western Illinois $3,100,811
Indiana State $4,256,090 (A reported 244k net profit)
South Dakota State $3,950,727
South Dakota $4,031,135
Missouri State $3,846,066
North Dakota $4,965,053 (NOW MVFC)
Murray State $3,514,694
Assuming all the talk is true about them being added. They'll be near the bottom of the list on budgets in the MVFC behind only Western Illinois. Just another whipping boy.

[Sonic98]

Anyone have the conference averages for all conferences?

[Hammerhead]

I had a professor who said this about statistics and it might also apply to budgets. What they reveal is interesting and what they hide is essential.

[AmsterBison]

What do we call the other conferences - Minor? Insignificant? Waste-Of-Your-Time? Or do they simply not count?

The B.S. on this board really is getting to be infuriating - to the point where you can take your "Major" FCS conference crap and shove it.

I'm pretty sure Hammersmith did the conferences that are mostly public schools. I don't think that private schools report their budget information.

Is the Patriot League "major"? Aren't they undefeated against JMU in the playoffs?

[DFW HOYA]

Anyone have the conference averages for all conferences?

Conference averages per alignments in the 2019-20 season:


Colonial $6,615,002
Patriot $5,832,908
Big Sky $5,165,001
Southern $4,976,314
MVFC $4,206,151
Southland $3,987,658
Big South $3,933,563
OVC $3,738,771
Ivy $3,574,644
NEC $3,504,299
MEAC $3,479,440
SWAC $3,196,520
Pioneer $1,374,102

[nodak651]

I'll have to go back and look again. I clicked on your link and started reading and only got so far before it said I could create a free 30 day trial and after that it was a subscription based service.

FYI, just noticed that he added all of the 2020 and 2021 reports to google docs folders. 2020 data is most relevant because the 2021 reports represents the year everything was shut down for covid. https://www.extrapointsmb.com/foia-directory/