Army Football--more games against FCS?

[Go Green]

The New York times had an article about the state of Army Football.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/sports/ncaafootball/for-army-football-a-duty-to-win-again.html?_r=0

At the beginning of the season, the Army AD was openly talking about scheduling games against Ivy and Patriot teams (as Army did with frequency prior to the 1990s).

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130812/SPORTS36/308120322/-1/SPORTS

[Lehigh Football Nation]

He also said Army could be slightly more relaxed on its admissions policy when it came to superior athletes. “We’re looking for a level of trust that our people out there recruiting can recognize that a young man has the character and leadership qualities to come and succeed at West Point,” he said. “We want to be able to take an educated risk on someone that we’ve identified holistically. We’re not talking about five deviations from the average cadet.”

Sounds like the unofficial institution of Patriot League-type and Ivy League-type football AI for cadets. Very, very interesting.

[Bogus Megapardus]

My understanding is that it was part of the PL scholarship talks. Army and Navy had votes in that.

Shout out to the Red Raiders, too - " . . . playing some of our more traditional rivals with a Colgate or an Ivy or other Patriot League teams mixed in there, it's going very well. We are excited about that." Again, Army already has two confirmed dates with Lafayette in 2016 and 2018.

[DFW HOYA]

My understanding is that it was part of the PL scholarship talks. Army and Navy had votes in that.

Almost no chance Georgetown was included in that deal, unfortunately.

[blueballs]

Interesting...

It is looking like Jeff Monken will be the next coach at Army. They asked for and were granted permission by GSU to interview Monken. Mutual interest has been expressed publically. A plane went from West Point to Savannah late yesterday (per flightaware).

I wonder how Monken's hire will affect that, if at all.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The New York times had an article about the state of Army Football.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/sports/ncaafootball/for-army-football-a-duty-to-win-again.html?_r=0

At the beginning of the season, the Army AD was openly talking about scheduling games against Ivy and Patriot teams (as Army did with frequency prior to the 1990s).

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130812/SPORTS36/308120322/-1/SPORTS

Dartmouth last played Army in 1983 when the Black Knights were playing two Ivy and two PL each season. Could the Keggers be returning to Michie????

[Bogus Megapardus]

Interesting...

It is looking like Jeff Monken will be the next coach at Army. They asked for and were granted permission by GSU to interview Monken. Mutual interest has been expressed publically. A plane went from West Point to Savannah late yesterday (per flightaware).

I wonder how Monken's hire will affect that, if at all.

I doubt Monken has ever heard of the Ivy League, much less the Patriot. But it certainly bodes well for the continuation of the triple option at West Point.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Almost no chance Georgetown was included in that deal, unfortunately.

I am aware of nothing suggesting that the Hoyas were excluded. A Navy-Georgetown series would make perfect sense on several levels. But keep in mind that PL/Academy games almost certainly aren't aren't going to be guarantee games, so Georgetown would have to have other reasons to want to schedule Navy.

[blueballs]

I doubt Monken has ever heard of the Ivy League, much less the Patriot. But it certainly bodes well for the continuation of the triple option at West Point.

Considering the fact that he was an assistant at Navy for 7 years I'm quite sure he knows what the Ivy League is, as well as being very familiar with what a HC at an Academy has to deal with.

He was also on Paul Johnson's staff at GSU when GSU stomped Colgate in the 1998 playoffs.

[citdog]

Hudson High sure as HELL won't play The Citadel.


https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/970389_10200752032387757_1975065914_n.jpg

[caribbeanhen]

Always an FCS team at Army games

[Go Green]

Dartmouth last played Army in 1983 when the Black Knights were playing two Ivy and two PL each season. Could the Keggers be returning to Michie????

Could happen.

Army is visiting Yale in 2014. Yale and Penn have some open dates for 2015 and 2016 (all other Ivies booked through 2016).

[Go Green]

Hudson High sure as HELL won't play The Citadel.


https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/970389_10200752032387757_1975065914_n.jpg


Army does seem to have more fun playing VMI. :)

[Pard4Life]

Could happen.

Army is visiting Yale in 2014. Yale and Penn have some open dates for 2015 and 2016 (all other Ivies booked through 2016).

Penn? Oh no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no...

Remember, Al Bagnoli and the Penn administration are afraid of big bad scholarship Lafayette and Patriot League teams beating up on their inferior athletes. Penn and Lafayette have met 90 times, and no games are scheduled over the next three seasons.

[Sader87]

This situation has fascinated me for sometime now. I've been following Army pretty closely this Century and without fail it has followed the same exact script every 3 or 4 years i.e. "we need a new coach who gets the 'Army way'...once we get him in place, we'll get back to glory."

What they choose not to see, is that when they were last winning consistently in the 1980's they were playing a schedule heavily loaded with Ivy and Patriot teams every year.

I just don't think it's possible to win at the FBS-level at Army.... in any meaningful way anyway...that is, they can cobble 6 or 7 wins together playing MAC and Sun-Belt teams every few years...but is that really worth changing West Point?

[Go Green]

Penn? Oh no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no...

Remember, Al Bagnoli and the Penn administration are afraid of big bad scholarship Lafayette and Patriot League teams beating up on their inferior athletes. Penn and Lafayette have met 90 times, and no games are scheduled over the next three seasons.

We're all waiting to see exactly what Penn does.

If they schedule games against Georgetown and Davidson, we will have our answer.

Personally, I really don't see much of a difference between schedule Army and scheduling some of the teams Penn has played in recent years (i.e., good CAA and PL teams) as far as talent is concerned. If scheduling Army can draw twice as many fans at Franklin Field than scheduling Lafayette, then Penn should do so.

[Go Green]

What they choose not to see, is that when they were last winning consistently in the 1980's they were playing a schedule heavily loaded with Ivy and Patriot teams every year.



The Navy blogs have made this point repeatedly. Army really hasn't won against today's BCS teams on a consistent basis since the 1960s.

[Sader87]

I doubt Army ever goes to Franklin Field...it's possible, but doubtful right now.

The only reason they are going to Yale next year is due it being the Bowl's centennial...there was much gnashing of teeth about this at Army the last couple of years.

[Pard4Life]

The Navy blogs have made this point repeatedly. Army really hasn't won against today's BCS teams on a consistent basis since the 1960s.

So what does Navy do differently?

[Sader87]

The Navy blogs have made this point repeatedly. Army really hasn't won against today's BCS teams on a consistent basis since the 1960s.

HC beat Army in 1973, 1978, 1981, 1986, 1987 and 2002....just sayin' :)

[Sader87]

So what does Navy do differently?

That's been the $64K question.

Basically the answer lies somewhere in the realm of: coaching, location, Navy not as arduous at the academy or after, better (some might say looser) recruiting or any combination thereof.

[Bogus Megapardus]

So what does Navy do differently?

Navy training involves remaining motionless in a sardine can for long periods of time and paddling about on a sliver of driftwood now and then. Army training involves scaling 1,200 foot cliffs, forced dehydration and running full speed through rows of barbed wired eighteen hours a day - then going to practice.

[Pard4Life]

HC beat Army in 1973, 1978, 1981, 1986, 1987 and 2002....just sayin' :)

xlolx

Lafayette beat Army in 1940. And that's it. Though their coach at the time compared us favorably to Notre Dame.

[Red & Black]

I'd like to see Army play one of the top 3-4 teams in the FCS. NDSU/Army would be a blood-bath.

[Go...gate]

Considering the fact that he was an assistant at Navy for 7 years I'm quite sure he knows what the Ivy League is, as well as being very familiar with what a HC at an Academy has to deal with.

He was also on Paul Johnson's staff at GSU when GSU stomped Colgate in the 1998 playoffs.

You didn't exactly "stomp" us. It was tied at the half and GSU ultimately won 49-28.

[Pard4Life]

I'd like to see Army play one of the top 3-4 teams in the FCS. NDSU/Army would be a blood-bath.

They play Yale next year; not a top team of course but should be an interesting gauge. Army stomped a pitiful Fordham team 59-0 in a snowstorm two years ago.

[Sader87]

UNH stomped Army 28-10 in 2008...the Wildcats haven't been asked back to Michie since.

[Go Green]

Navy training involves remaining motionless in a sardine can for long periods of time and paddling about on a sliver of driftwood now and then. Army training involves scaling 1,200 foot cliffs, forced dehydration and running full speed through rows of barbed wired eighteen hours a day - then going to practice.

There's that.

And there's the fact that Navy (and Air Force) life after graduation is generally considered safer than Army life. If you want to serve in the military, but don't really want to have your limbs blown off, Navy/Air Force may be the better choice.

[DFW HOYA]

So what does Navy do differently?

Navy and Air Force are perceived as being somewhat more elastic in recruiting, esp. at skill positions. In addition, the specter of combat operations faces West Point in ways it does not at Annapolis and Colorado Springs.

Then, there is the year to year reputations of the schools. How many of today's kids have any memory of regular winning seasons on The Plain? Kids are drawn to winning programs. And it's not just the academies, A kid can get a great education at Penn or Columbia, but in recruiting, Penn wins that battle more times than not and Columbia...well, enough said. It's not just bad luck when Columbia has defeated Penn just three times since 1981 even as their admissions targets are the same every season.

[Pard4Life]

Navy and Air Force are perceived as being somewhat more elastic in recruiting, esp. at skill positions. In addition, the specter of combat operations faces West Point in ways it does not at Annapolis and Colorado Springs.

Then, there is the year to year reputations of the schools. How many of today's kids have any memory of regular winning seasons on The Plain? Kids are drawn to winning programs. And it's not just the academies, A kid can get a great education at Penn or Columbia, but in recruiting, Penn wins that battle more times than not and Columbia...well, enough said. It's not just bad luck when Columbia has defeated Penn just three times since 1981 even as their admissions targets are the same every season.

Has that been established? Because I was under the impression that Penn is still cutting corners, even though technically all Ivies are supposed to have the same academic index.

[Go Green]

Has that been established?

Probably been true since the mid 1990s. But before that, Penn was widely perceived as being at the bottom of the Ivy in terms of admissions standards for athletes for the previous decades.

[BisonFan02]

I would love to see NDSU play at a service academy some day. That would be a game I would attend.

[citdog]

I would love to see NDSU play at a service academy some day. That would be a game I would attend.

The Citadel would whip all three. vmi.....not so much.

[Go Green]

The Citadel would whip all three. vmi.....not so much.

Out of curiosity, do Citadel/VMI/Army generally pursue the same football recruits? And if so, are Navy and Air Force usually part of the competition?

[BisonFan02]

The Citadel would whip all three. vmi.....not so much.

I wouldn't mind seeing The Citadel on the schedule either. :)

[Sader87]

NDSU would blow Army out this year...Navy would be a good game. Bison would probably beat Air force this year too.

[ngineer]

Almost no chance Georgetown was included in that deal, unfortunately.

Likely, but, wouldn't it be interesting to see G'town play Navy or Army in DC at the new stadium..you could get all the Pentagon types and those from Foggy Bottom to pack the place!

[ngineer]

There's that.

And there's the fact that Navy (and Air Force) life after graduation is generally considered safer than Army life. If you want to serve in the military, but don't really want to have your limbs blown off, Navy/Air Force may be the better choice.

I think that is one of the major issues with Army's ability to recruit. The Army is viewed as the one that has to do the 'dirty work' and higher risk after graduation.

[ngineer]

Has that been established? Because I was under the impression that Penn is still cutting corners, even though technically all Ivies are supposed to have the same academic index.

Absolutely true. I know that we had a recruiting prospect get a thumbs down from Admissions, yet he ended up at Penn. They've been doing it for years.

[danefan]

I'd like to see Army play one of the top 3-4 teams in the FCS. NDSU/Army would be a blood-bath.


Stony Brook absolutely worked Army last year.

[Seawolf97]

Yes we did 23-3 and we called off the dogs with 5 minutes left. Would like to play them again it is really a nice day at the Point.

[Sycamore62]

NDSU would blow Army out this year...Navy would be a good game. Bison would probably beat Air force this year too.

Navy no

home team wins an Air Force match up. I'm giving them the edge at home for altitude.

[DFW HOYA]

An article on the challenges ahead for Army:

http://www.footballscoop.com/news/12005-an-inside-look-at-the-challenges-the-next-army-coach-will-face

[Mr. C]

Hudson High sure as HELL won't play The Citadel.


https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/970389_10200752032387757_1975065914_n.jpg

I think I see Citdog celebrating out there in the middle of that field.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I thought Citdog was the one waving the Confederate flag. Well, one of those guys.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I thought Citdog was the one waving the Confederate flag. Well, one of those guys.

That's the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag, son. Citdog would be furious!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I thought, incidentally, after those two Ari Confessor TDs had Holy Cross beating Army 30-21 - that's when Army stopped scheduling PL games.

[ccd494]

There's that.

And there's the fact that Navy (and Air Force) life after graduation is generally considered safer than Army life. If you want to serve in the military, but don't really want to have your limbs blown off, Navy/Air Force may be the better choice.

Let's calm down on that. There are plenty of Marine Corps officers with degrees from Annapolis.

[Bill]

ccd - I see your point, but I was under the impression that Naval academy students can choose to go in the marines - but obviously don't have to. I have heard several West Point grads state to me that, all things being equal, Army grads are significantly more likely to be put in harms way over the last 10-12 years....

[Go Green]

Let's calm down on that. There are plenty of Marine Corps officers with degrees from Annapolis.

I didn't say that Navy and AF grads all get desk jobs. Of course they get put in harms' way as well. But as Bill said, relatively speaking, Army is generally regarded as the most dangerous of the three branches.

[ccd494]

I didn't say that Navy and AF grads all get desk jobs. Of course they get put in harms' way as well. But as Bill said, relatively speaking, Army is generally regarded as the most dangerous of the three branches.

That may be, but if you walk into an academy with the line of thinking that you are hoping to avoid being put into harm's way, it's tough to imagine you will even get through a semester.

[Ivytalk]

Harvard played Army each year from 1980 through 1984, winning twice. Harvard lost in 1989 and 1991 at Michie. I'd like to see that series start up again.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Aside from Navy and Air Force, who exactly are Army's "traditional rivals" to whom they'll be returning? They're the usual suspects, of course (fifteen or more games played):


Yale - 45

Notre Dame - 40

Harvard - 39

Rutgers - 39

Boston College - 38

Colgate - 29

Pittsburgh - 27

Holy Cross - 24

Penn State - 23

Duke - 22

Columbia - 21

Syracuse - 21

Villanova - 21

Penn - 19

Lafayette - 18

VMI - 15

[Sader87]

The Holy Cross-Army games of the 1970's and 1980's were terrific both on and off the field. Always a sell-out (or near one) as the HC alumni of the tri-state area turned out in great numbers for games at Michie. It was a close 2nd to the BC game as the most attractive on the schedule then.

[bojeta]

Hmmm.... makes me wonder how former Cal Poly coach Rich Ellerson might have done with Army had they let him recruit more aggressively, and schedule more FCS games...? He's one of the most successful Army coaches of the last 15-20 years in spite of back to back poor performances. Took them to a bowl game and won during his short 5 year stint. Then they can him, and release this :/

[Go...gate]

The Holy Cross-Army games of the 1970's and 1980's were terrific both on and off the field. Always a sell-out (or near one) as the HC alumni of the tri-state area turned out in great numbers for games at Michie. It was a close 2nd to the BC game as the most attractive on the schedule then.

Same with Colgate.

I noticed Rutgers was not on the list. Thought they had played West Point more than fifteen times.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Same with Colgate.

I noticed Rutgers was not on the list. Thought they had played West Point more than fifteen times.

4th on the list, 'gate.

[Go...gate]

4th on the list, 'gate.

Ouch. My latest senior moment. Sorry.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette at West Point:




http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5233/puyy.jpg



Football in the northeast really doesn't get any better than this.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This just in . . . Army Will Play Notre Dame at Alamodome in 2016

http://www.goarmysports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/122013aaa.html

Reading between the lines (and in the context of this thread), is this how Army dumps North Texas, Baylor and Texas A&M from the schedule but still remains relevant in the Lone Star State?

[Go...gate]

Lafayette at West Point:



http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5233/puyy.jpg



Football in the northeast really doesn't get any better than this.

Amen. Nothing like a Saturday afternoon watching your team at the Point. Great football, terrific pageantry and the whispers of ghost spectators with names like Bradley, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Lee (that one's for you, Citdog), Lombardi, Blaik and countless others.

[Go...gate]

This just in . . . Army Will Play Notre Dame at Alamodome in 2016

http://www.goarmysports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/122013aaa.html

Reading between the lines (and in the context of this thread), is this how Army dumps North Texas, Baylor and Texas A&M from the schedule but still remains relevant in the Lone Star State?

Army will always play the Texas teams. Lots of cadets from TX, lots of army installations in TX, etc.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Amen. Nothing like a Saturday afternoon watching your team at the Point. Great football, terrific pageantry and the whispers of ghost spectators with names like Bradley, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Lee (that one's for you, Citdog), Lombardi, Blaik and countless others.

But you know, 'gate, it's not as if PL fans don't get to see Michie every year. The Black Knights do play *another* sport there as well, you know . . .






http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/2716/yygr.png




xnodx

[Go...gate]

My brother played Lacrosse for the Red Raiders and played at Army. It was quite an experience.

[buffalobill]

Have any of the academies played a home and home with an FCS/1-AA school?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Have any of the academies played a home and home with an FCS/1-AA school?

Yale and Harvard did up through the 1990s. Army plays at Yale next year. None of the PL schools.

[blueballs]

Have any of the academies played a home and home with an FCS/1-AA school?

Delaware and Navy played many times.... Delaware won their fair share too.

[TigerFen]

Even though I live in MD and am close to the Naval Academy, I am an Army fan (probably the only team I care about in FBS). I don't think more games against FCS schools will prepare Army better to beat Navy or Air Force. I think there is still a difference in competition between FCS and FBS still. If they can relax the academic standards a touch, then that would probably help them much more than playing Colgate and Lafayette.

[Sitting Bull]

Have any of the academies played a home and home with an FCS/1-AA school?

W&M has played Navy 42 times, all in Annapolis except one game in the early 80s at the Oyster Bowl in Norfolk (now ODU's home stadium). Navy was ranked then in the top 20 under George Welsh and pulled away late for a 24-7 win.

The Oyster Bowl was an annual game played there until the mid 90s, put on by the local Shriners. Navy played in the annual game often, usually against Duke though they also played VMI there one year in the 60s. W&M played in the game about 10 times, including a very memorable win against East Carolina in 1977 where an old coach on the ECU sidelines ran onto the field to tackle the W&M QB sprinting down the sidelines for the decisive TD. The game cost ECU a Peach Bowl berth, Tribe won 21-17.

Navy dominated W&M in the all time series through the Tribe won the last two visits to Annapolis in 1988 and 1991. We haven't been on their schedule since.

The Tribe upset of Navy in 1967 still ranks among the top 10 upsets all time in College Football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Even though I live in MD and am close to the Naval Academy, I am an Army fan (probably the only team I care about in FBS). I don't think more games against FCS schools will prepare Army better to beat Navy or Air Force. I think there is still a difference in competition between FCS and FBS still. If they can relax the academic standards a touch, then that would probably help them much more than playing Colgate and Lafayette.

But Army fans withing driving distance of Michie would much rather see Colgate or Yale than Central Michigan or Ball State. Plus we're only talking about a couple of games each season.

[Bogus Megapardus]

W&M has played Navy 42 times, all in Annapolis except one game in the early 80s at the Oyster Bowl in Norfolk (now ODU's home stadium). Navy was ranked then in the top 20 under George Welsh and pulled away late for a 24-7 win.

The Oyster Bowl was an annual game played there until the mid 90s, put on by the local Shriners. Navy played in the annual game often, usually against Duke though they also played VMI there one year in the 60s. W&M played in the game about 10 times, including a very memorable win against East Carolina in 1977 where an old coach on the ECU sidelines ran onto the field to tackle the W&M QB sprinting down the sidelines for the decisive TD. The game cost ECU a Peach Bowl berth, Tribe won 21-17.

Navy dominated W&M in the all time series through the Tribe won the last two visits to Annapolis in 1988 and 1991. We haven't been on their schedule since.

The Tribe upset of Navy in 1967 still ranks among the top 10 upsets all time in College Football.

The problem with Navy is, they joined that stupid conference that they thought was the Big East but now isn't. Huge mistake. They're locked into 8 conference games plus yearly games vs Air Force, Army and Notre Dame. That leaves just one discretionary game for the Midshipmen in a 12 game schedule. Supposedly that one game will be a PL opponent, but that remains to be seen. I know only that Navy's contract specifically states that they are to remain in the PL for all non-football sports and that there's supposed to be some "flexibility," whatever that means. Navy vs. Penn (47 games and counting), W&M (42 games), Princeton (36 games), Lehigh (21 games), an improved scholarship Georgetown (19 games) and Delaware (17 games) would make just too much sense.

[CID1990]

Likely, but, wouldn't it be interesting to see G'town play Navy or Army in DC at the new stadium..you could get all the Pentagon types and those from Foggy Bottom to pack the place!

Foggy Bottom? You must be thinking of Langley or something else, because Foggy Bottom is full of cookie pushers who prefer ladies' field hockey and tea with scones over football.

[Go Green]

Foggy Bottom? You must be thinking of Langley or something else, because Foggy Bottom is full of cookie pushers who prefer ladies' field hockey and tea with scones over football.

:)

Those who don't know--Foggy Bottom is where the State Department is. The folks that like to solve the world's problems through diplomacy.

[Go Green]

Even though I live in MD and am close to the Naval Academy, I am an Army fan (probably the only team I care about in FBS). I don't think more games against FCS schools will prepare Army better to beat Navy or Air Force. I think there is still a difference in competition between FCS and FBS still. If they can relax the academic standards a touch, then that would probably help them much more than playing Colgate and Lafayette.

Scheduling down worked wonders for Bill Snyder at Kansas State.

But I agree with the larger point that getting better athletes to come to Army is far more important than Colgate v. Ball State on the schedule.

[Bogus Megapardus]

:)

Those who don't know--Foggy Bottom is where the State Department is. The folks that like to solve the world's problems through diplomacy.

I always thought it was where George Washington University is located. That and the Watergate building. My maroon bison avatar has a foggy bottom, too.

[Sitting Bull]

But Army fans withing driving distance of Michie would much rather see Colgate or Yale than Central Michigan or Ball State. Plus we're only talking about a couple of games each season.

Very true.

The MAC is a sheep in wolfs clothing in terms of FBS. Not only your Army example, UVA did same, trading in games against W&M, VMI, JMU and Richmond for a period and replaced with the Ball States, Eastern Michigans and Idaho's of the world - back when they needed "1A" wins.

I guess the MAC serves the purpose, as does the Sun Belt, of providing the BCS teams a cupcake (most of the time) often at the expense of regional matchups with FCS teams that would actually draw more interest and fans.

[DFW HOYA]

Army might add a PL team to the rotation but Navy is not. The AAC commitments plus Army, Air Force, and ND make that infeasible.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Army might add a PL team to the rotation but Navy is not. The AAC commitments plus Army, Air Force, and ND make that infeasible.

Navy gets one discretionary game in a 12 games season if it continues football in the conference formerly known as the big east. Supposedly the PL gets that game, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Go Green]

Navy gets one discretionary game in a 12 games season if it continues football in the conference formerly known as the big east. Supposedly the PL gets that game, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Navy usually tries to get games with California schools. If not a PL team, expect Navy to play the San Diego States and San Jose States o the world.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

As long as only one FCS game counts toward bowl eligibility, you'll probably only see one FCS game on their schedule each year.

[DFW HOYA]

Even if the academies wanted to play PL teams (and it's questionable) Bucknell is not getting a game, though unfairly so. The academies aren't going to entertain the thought of Georgetown because the Hoyas are already being marginalized and isn't a counter for bowl purposes.

[Ramblin' Man]

Army is playing Fordham at West Point on November 22 next year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Even if the academies wanted to play PL teams (and it's questionable)

" . . . playing some of our more traditional rivals with a Colgate or an Ivy or other Patriot League teams mixed in there, it's going very well. We are excited about that."

That's not exactly rendering the notion anathema.

[Go...gate]

The problem with Navy is, they joined that stupid conference that they thought was the Big East but now isn't. Huge mistake. They're locked into 8 conference games plus yearly games vs Air Force, Army and Notre Dame. That leaves just one discretionary game for the Midshipmen in a 12 game schedule. Supposedly that one game will be a PL opponent, but that remains to be seen. I know only that Navy's contract specifically states that they are to remain in the PL for all non-football sports and that there's supposed to be some "flexibility," whatever that means. Navy vs. Penn (47 games and counting), W&M (42 games), Princeton (36 games), Lehigh (21 games), an improved scholarship Georgetown (19 games) and Delaware (17 games) would make just too much sense.


Navy did not drop the Princeton series. Princeton did after the 1984 season. Navy came to Palmer Stadium periodically over the years.

[Go...gate]

Scheduling down worked wonders for Bill Snyder at Kansas State.

But I agree with the larger point that getting better athletes to come to Army is far more important than Colgate v. Ball State on the schedule.

A game on the 2014 Red Raider schedule.

[Go...gate]

Even if the academies wanted to play PL teams (and it's questionable) Bucknell is not getting a game, though unfairly so. The academies aren't going to entertain the thought of Georgetown because the Hoyas are already being marginalized and isn't a counter for bowl purposes.

Not necessarily true. Army did play Bucknell once and the gesture of playing them would never hurt from a PL conference relationship standpoint, as both are full PL members.

Georgetown, on the other hand, will probably get all the Ivy schools it wants because of the continuance of its present finanacial aid arrangements for FB.

[Bogus Megapardus]

all the Ivy schools it wants

True justice would be served if Georgetown gets only the Ivy schools it doesn't want.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Army is playing Fordham at West Point on November 22 next year.

Yeah, well it's about time that the Rams bring all their sports back home to the Patriot League. xsmiley_wix

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown, on the other hand, will probably get all the Ivy schools it wants because of the continuance of its present finanacial aid arrangements for FB.

No guarantees there, either. If not, maybe Georgetown can play home and away with Davidson...within the same season.

[Ramblin' Man]

Yeah, well it's about time that the Rams bring all their sports back home to the Patriot League. xsmiley_wix


Fordham AD David Roach said on radio WFUV last Saturday that future football opponents will include Army in 2014 and 2015, Navy in 2016, home and home with Richmond and with William and Mary and an away game with Charlotte in 2016 or 2017.

[Bogus Megapardus]

an away game with Charlotte

Why'd he have to go and spoil it like that? The schedule is terrific otherwise!

[Ramblin' Man]

Why'd he have to go and spoil it like that? The schedule is terrific otherwise!

We have to give our many North Carolina alumni a chance to see the Rams in person. :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

We have to give our many North Carolina alumni a chance to see the Rams in person. :)


Prescient.

The Bronx, North Carolina (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/316185/bronx-north-carolina-kevin-d-williamson)

[Go...gate]

No guarantees there, either. If not, maybe Georgetown can play home and away with Davidson...within the same season.

No guarantees, but I'd bet a few bucks on it. Gary Walters of Princeton was only too happy to swap us out for Georgetown. You think that Columbia, Penn and Harvard won't feel the same way? And Dartmouth wants a return game with you guys in Hanover, but they are still waiting for GU to agree to it.

[Go...gate]

We have to give our many North Carolina alumni a chance to see the Rams in person. :)

Gotta think that the Rams have a few alums down there....

[Engineer86]

Delaware and Navy played many times.... Delaware won their fair share too.

I think these are always at Navy.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think these are always at Navy.

Navy lost at Delaware in 1985, 1989 and 1992.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Even if the academies wanted to play PL teams (and it's questionable) Bucknell is not getting a game, though unfairly so. The academies aren't going to entertain the thought of Georgetown because the Hoyas are already being marginalized and isn't a counter for bowl purposes.

Army doesn't need bowls. Army needs to beat Navy; that's all.

[Engineer86]

Navy lost at Delaware in 1985, 1989 and 1992.

1992 was the last time Navy went to Newark

[Sandlapper Spike]

Navy also played at The Citadel in 1988 (and lost). I don't expect to see the Midshipmen back in Johnson Hagood Stadium again.

---

Incidentally, one possible reason for the difference in on-field success between Army and Navy might be financial:


Because NAAA is a 501(c)(3) corporation and not funded by the government, it isn’t subject to the same government regulations when it comes to fundraising. Army and Air Force are organized differently. While their coaches are not paid with taxpayer money, they are paid with government money through the Non-Appropriated Fund Instrumentalities set up to support their athletic departments (both Army and Air Force coaches are technically government contractors). NAFI fundraising is more restrictive than what Navy is able to do. Navy simply has more money to pay ADs and coaches, so on average, they hire better ones.

Link (http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2013/12/08/army-week-whats-wrong-with-army/)

[Bogus Megapardus]

Incidentally, one possible reason for the difference in on-field success between Army and Navy might be financial:

Link (http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2013/12/08/army-week-whats-wrong-with-army/)

Army and Navy both have indicated on many occasions their desire to have all their sports become (and remain) completely financially independent of non-dedicated funding. Having endowed coaches and scholarships (as have most other PL teams, to some degree) is the sure-fire way to be sure that variances in institutional funding do not disrupt signature athletic programs.

I've heard that the advice and guidance of other PL schools has been a huge help to the Academies in achieving this goal across the board. That's one of the reasons the Academies like the PL so much. We're pretty good at that sort of thing, you know . . . xnodx

[Sader87]

We'll be right back here talking about the same thing in 4 or 5 years if Army doesn't make major institutional changes at West Point. i.e. ease up on admissions, giving football players more leeway to avoid things like Beast Barracks etc etc.

Personally, I don't think it can be done (winning consistently at Army at a FBS level) in the 21st Century.

[Bogus Megapardus]

We'll be right back here talking about the same thing in 4 or 5 years if Army doesn't make major institutional changes at West Point. i.e. ease up on admissions, giving football players more leeway to avoid things like Beast Barracks etc etc.

Personally, I don't think it can be done (winning consistently at Army at a FBS level) in the 21st Century.


I don't think that will happen. All cadets are required to participate in a sport and all are expected to face the same challenges. You can argue that football training and conditioning is more arduous than, say, baseball or golf, but I'm not sure that's going to result in a change of policy at West Point.

[Sader87]

I don't think that will happen. All cadets are required to participate in a sport and all are expected to face the same challenges. You can argue that football training and conditioning is more arduous than, say, baseball or golf, but I'm not sure that's going to result in a change of policy at West Point.

Ordinarily I'd agree Bogey but I think Army's at the point that "this is it." We have to get better or it's PL football for us from here on....look from some institutional changes both off (501c3 funding) and on the field (easier recruiting, more football practice less military training etc).

[kdinva]

Here's a list of Army's future opponents:

http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa/indep/army-black-knights.php

2014) Yale
2015) Fordham
2016) Lafayette
2017)
2018) Lafayette

I heard third-hand Army and VMI are talking about a couple of games....like 2019 & 2021, or 2020 & 2022.....

[blueballs]

Several media outlets are reporting GSU coach Jeff Monken has accepted the Army HC position....contract details still being ironed out.... official announcement to follow once contract finalized.

[DFW HOYA]

Personally, I don't think it can be done (winning consistently at Army at a FBS level) in the 21st Century.

Of course it can. If Navy and Air Force can win, so can Army.

Remember, it wasn't that long ago that John Feinstein was telling his readers that Duke should drop football entirely, because it cannot compete in the ACC.

[Sader87]

Of course it can. If Navy and Air Force can win, so can Army.

Remember, it wasn't that long ago that John Feinstein was telling his readers that Duke should drop football entirely, because it cannot compete in the ACC.

Army has beaten 6 or more FBS teams in one season something like 2 or 3 times since the early 1970s....just sayin'....that's what they're up against at West Point.

[DFW HOYA]

Army has beaten 6 or more FBS teams in one season something like 2 or 3 times since the early 1970s....just sayin'....that's what they're up against at West Point.

I was simply using the Duke analogy as a comparison for wayward programs. From 2000-07, Duke had just 10 wins, three of those vs. I-AA teams.

I sometimes use the Army analogy as it relates to Georgetown--a program that should do much, much better given their national reach and internal resources.

[Bill]

DFW - forgive me if this has been asked of you before, but:

Back in the early 1990's most schools were forced to bring all of their athletic programs to the same division...no more DI hoops and DIII football set ups. Do you think, if given the choice, Georgetown would have preferred to remain DIII? Just curious....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Navy also played at The Citadel in 1988 (and lost). I don't expect to see the Midshipmen back in Johnson Hagood Stadium again.

---

Incidentally, one possible reason for the difference in on-field success between Army and Navy might be financial:



Link (http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2013/12/08/army-week-whats-wrong-with-army/)

This is an excellent point. I remember wading through this stuff during the government shutdown and finding out which athletic departments were affected.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/10/congress-shuts-down-government-and-army.html


"There are differences in how each academy funds their athletics programs," Urban told Mark Schlabach of ESPN.com. "One academy can pay for its entire program through non-appropriated funds. Others do not have that setup."

As a part of the Mountain West's TV contract, the Air Force gets "non-appropriated funds" through a payment for TV rights. This is not the case with Army and Navy, in the Patriot League for most sports and competing as an independent in FBS.

All three have different setups, and what's clear is Army's is more behind the eight ball than both the USNA and the ASAFA.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW - forgive me if this has been asked of you before, but:

Back in the early 1990's most schools were forced to bring all of their athletic programs to the same division...no more DI hoops and DIII football set ups. Do you think, if given the choice, Georgetown would have preferred to remain DIII? Just curious....

For some. Georgetown had a variety of sports across diferent divisions (tennis played in D-II for a while in the 1980's, for example) and a D-III team would have allowed it to keep a popular head coach (Scotty Glacken, the former Duke and Denver Broncos QB in the early 1960's) to stay on, given that he was only a part-time coach and made far more money in the real estate market than he would in football. His assistants were all part-time as well, so the program basically closed up shop each year in November. Glacken was discouraged to be let go in 1993, but made peace with the program before his untimely death in 2007.

Notwithstanding, I-AA was the right move. Part of the current problem is strategic thinking, inasmuch as Georgetown still seems to be on the same page that Bob Benson introduced in 1993. And that's what also is at issue at Army--change is difficult at the Point and no A.D. wants to get ahead of the Supe when it comes to program change. The brass don't want to be the Notre Dame of the East, they just want to be Army, on their terms, so digging itself out of the ditch isn't as easy as it would be at other schools. (So too, at Georgetown.)

[dgtw]

Ordinarily I'd agree Bogey but I think Army's at the point that "this is it." We have to get better or it's PL football for us from here on....look from some institutional changes both off (501c3 funding) and on the field (easier recruiting, more football practice less military training etc).

I'd prefer they have same military training everyone else there gets. I understand all schools ease up on admissions to some extent for athletes, but the academies should not do that.

[CID1990]

Navy lost at Delaware in 1985, 1989 and 1992.

Navy also lost at The Citadel in 1988. They lost at Annapolis in 1989.

Navy never scheduled us again.

[CID1990]

I'd prefer they have same military training everyone else there gets. I understand all schools ease up on admissions to some extent for athletes, but the academies should not do that.

Well, they do and they don't...

They have their own prep schools to weed out the real duds (sure would be nice if we could all have that- huh?)

But the average wide receiver at Navy is not your future submarine skipper or admiral.

[Go Green]

Washington Post publishes an opinion piece saying that Army shouldn't lower admission standards for football.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/west-point-is-placing-too-much-emphasis-on-football/2014/02/23/a4f08694-97fa-11e3-afce-3e7c922ef31e_story.html

Honestly, if he thinks Army is placing "too much emphasis on football" right now, he should just come out and say that Army should join the PL.

[DFW HOYA]

The backstory is that many West Point grads don't feel comfortable that Navy and Air Force standards are even more lax and Army isn't in a position to match it.

[Sader87]

I've said this for awhile now, the growing professionalism of FBS, the cuts in the defense dept., the political-pressure etc etc. are ultimately going to make having the service academies play at the FBS-level untenable. How this will play out will be interesting. Will they just drop football altogether? Will Army and Navy go PL? What happens to AFA football....Big Sky?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

West Point admission standards are already relaxed for recruited athletes. Sixty-one percent of West Point’s current football players (http://www.goarmysports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/army-m-footbl-mtt.html) matriculated through the U.S. Military Academy Preparatory School, where academic risk thresholds are significantly lower than for standard academy admissions, and virtually everyone who completes the coursework enters the academy.

I fail to see why a year of prep school equates "significantly lower admissions standards". If anything, the USMAPS is a lifeline to prepare future cadets and athletes for their time there, and probably does more to retain cadets (or weed them out before they become cadets) than many other institutions of higher learning.


Students at USMAPS are known as Cadet Candidates (often abbreviated to "CCs"); board and tuition are free and they are paid a small stipend as they are active members of the U.S. Army. The course extends over a ten-month scholastic year and aims at training the "CCs” to cope with the academic and military rigors of an army education before attending West Point the following academic year.

They also have already gone through the process of getting the letters from their congressman, etc. for matriculation to USMA.

[MR. CHICKEN]

I've said this for awhile now, the growing professionalism of FBS, the cuts in the defense dept., the political-pressure etc etc. are ultimately going to make having the service academies play at the FBS-level untenable. How this will play out will be interesting. Will they just drop football altogether? Will Army and Navy go PL? What happens to AFA football....Big Sky?

18856.....NOT HAPPENIN'.........RECRUITIN' [email protected] LEAST............................................. ......AWK!

[Sader87]

18856.....NOT HAPPENIN'.........RECRUITIN' [email protected] LEAST............................................. ......AWK!

Good point Mr Chicken....one could make an argument that this is the only reason FBS football still exists at the SA's.

I still feel though that their days are numbered in FBS. In many ways, the SA's are closely aligned to the Ivies (and the PL) institutionally/philosophically and those schools decided to drop "big-time football" decades ago.

[MR. CHICKEN]

18857....AH'M STILL FEELIN'......ACADEMY TRIPS TA....HAWAII.....IRELAND...ETAL........WILL STILL ENSURE.....FUTURE....ADMIRALS AN' GENERALS.......FO' LONG TIME GI.......:)...BRAWK!

[Sader87]

I don't disagree but I also think their decision to remain FBS is going to be made for them...it's becoming too costly/too professionalized, the political pressure will continue to mount (eg. "What's the real purpose of a SA???" etc).

The ultimate break-away of the BCS schools in some way, shape or form will force the SA's hand to reexamine at what level they should play football....it wouldn't shock me if they dropped football altogether.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The ultimate break-away of the BCS schools in some way, shape or form will force the SA's hand to reexamine at what level they should play football....it wouldn't shock me if they dropped football altogether.

Not when


On Dec. 15, shortly after Army football’s 12th consecutive loss to the U.S. Naval Academy, the superintendent of West Point, Lt. Gen. Robert Caslen (http://undertheradar.military.com/2013/12/army-coach-rich-ellerson-gets-the-boot/) , announced that he was considering institutional changes to build a winning program. “When America puts its sons and daughters in harm’s way, they do not expect us to just ‘do our best’ . . . but to win,” he wrote. “Nothing short of victory is acceptable. . . . Our core values are Duty, Honor, Country. Winning makes them real.”

[Sader87]

I've said this before, but the Monken hire is really their last stab at FBS respectability...if he goes down, serious discussions will be made.

In many ways this is out of their hands....the SA's really can't recruit to be a perennial Top 50 or so program anymore. The restrictons/constraints (i.e. the other obligations they have at Annapolis, Colorado Springs, West Point etc) further make it difficult to be a very competitive FBS program.

The mounting political and economic pressure will force their hand ultimately.

[PAllen]

I've said this before, but the Monken hire is really their last stab at FBS respectability...if he goes down, serious discussions will be made.

In many ways this is out of their hands....the SA's really can't recruit to be a perennial Top 50 or so program anymore. The restrictons/constraints (i.e. the other obligations they have at Annapolis, Colorado Springs, West Point etc) further make it difficult to be a very competitive FBS program.

The mounting political and economic pressure will force their hand ultimately.

But you don't have to "recruit to be a perennial Top 50 or so program" to go to a bowl game in FBS as a SA. Army and Navy will never play FB in the PL. Syracuse would drop down to FCS before they do. This continual fantasizing about the SAs in the PL for FB is worse than Villanova, W&M, and Richmond. At least VU, WM, and UR could see some upside in the move. Army and Navy playing football in the PL would require total collapse of the academies, not just the FB programs, but the entire institutions.

[Sader87]

But you don't have to "recruit to be a perennial Top 50 or so program" to go to a bowl game in FBS as a SA. Army and Navy will never play FB in the PL. Syracuse would drop down to FCS before they do. This continual fantasizing about the SAs in the PL for FB is worse than Villanova, W&M, and Richmond. At least VU, WM, and UR could see some upside in the move. Army and Navy playing football in the PL would require total collapse of the academies, not just the FB programs, but the entire institutions.

Hyperbole much???

Believe me, I'm not "pushing for Army and Navy" to play football in the PL....just that it will be a (possible) outgrowth of changes not only in FBS college football but societal changes (changes in the academies: funding, priorities etc) as well.

[Go Green]

. Army and Navy will never play FB in the PL.

Everyone agrees that Navy isn't going FCS anytime soon.

The issue is Army. Army basically has three choices: 1) go 3-9 every year, 2) lower admissions/training requirements, or 3) go FCS.

Of the three options, I'd say #2 is least realistic.

[Sader87]

Beating a dead horse, but some would say they've been doing #2 (no pun intended I swear xrotatehx) for many years already.

Navy football is to be applauded for what they've accomplished over the last decade plus but it will be interesting once they get into the AAC and have to play a tougher FBS schedule week-in, week-out rather than their sort of cherry picked schedule they've had during this period of success.

[Brad82]

Could Army beat Fordham,Lehigh or Harvard?
Watering down the schedule is just trying to play the odds (probably won't work).
Best bet is to beef up and get better at FBS level.
Either relax the standards or continue to get pounded each year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What annoys me to no end is how much of this involves word play. The author clearly thinks having the USMAPS at all is "relaxing admissions standards", whereas I don't feel like it is.

"Relaxing admissions standards" paints a picture of USMA coaches pushing for rockheads to make it into the USMA so that they can win football games. "With those relaxed standards, now we can get that NCAA clearinghouse kid!" This is completely inaccurate. Having a prep school available to allow some potential cadets to adjust to military life, and to help with some aspects of their grades - isn't that what they should be doing for some kids?

If Boo Corrigan did his own op-ed saying that he wants to help more kids do better at USMA by offering more academic help services and expanding the USMAPS, there would be no debate and no discussion - it would be seen as a great thing. But because some faculty member considers it "relaxing standards", suddenly it's bad.

[PAllen]

When I went through the process in the early 1990s, NAPS was all about getting kids who weren't quite up to snuff academically an appointment. It was actually brought up in one of my interviews with congressional staffers that they were planning on pushing one or two appointments to NAPS (they had a lot of spare appointments due to a cheating scandal and wanted to spread them out), but I wasn't a good candidate for that as my academics were already at or above what I would get at NAPS. I did have a teammate a year ahead of me in HS who went to NAPS on his way to the USNA. He was just below the bar academically, but otherwise fit the mold. At least back then, that was the mission. It was academics, not adjusting to military life. Plebe summer got you adjusted to that.

[DFW HOYA]

Could Army beat Fordham,Lehigh or Harvard?
Watering down the schedule is just trying to play the odds (probably won't work).
Either relax the standards or continue to get pounded each year.

The same can be said of Georgetown, or VMI, or a half dozen other schools which are institutionally limited on recruiting while their athletic peers are not.

And the solution is the same: recruit good coaches, sign good student-athletes, and keep fighting.

[CID1990]

I think I see Citdog celebrating out there in the middle of that field.

Actually, I am out celebrating in the middle of that field.

[Seawolf97]

Could Army beat Fordham,Lehigh or Harvard?
Watering down the schedule is just trying to play the odds (probably won't work).
Best bet is to beef up and get better at FBS level.
Either relax the standards or continue to get pounded each year.
I watched us play the Cadets and they were small. Liberty, JMU and a few others put more beef on the field than Army did. And they have to figure out how to pass the ball. 90 % run games aren't going to win many games especially against the Big Boys. Sad they have great facilities, tradition and fan support and they cant get it done. But I highly doubt they will come down to FCS anytime soon.

[Go Green]

If this SI article is any indication, the current brass at West Point is absolutely committed to staying at FBS in football.

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/08/21/army-black-knights-jeff-monken

[Pard4Life]

If this SI article is any indication, the current brass at West Point is absolutely committed to staying at FBS in football.

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/08/21/army-black-knights-jeff-monken

Indeed... they are not going anywhere. I don't know why everyone keeps bringing up the contrary. Curious to see how they do vs. Yale. I'll never forget how a mediocre Holy Cross team beat them in 2002, a team that the Pards put up 50+ against.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Indeed... they are not going anywhere. I don't know why everyone keeps bringing up the contrary. Curious to see how they do vs. Yale. I'll never forget how a mediocre Holy Cross team beat them in 2002, a team that the Pards put up 50+ against.

Ari Confessor went crazy IIRC.....

[ngineer]

If this SI article is any indication, the current brass at West Point is absolutely committed to staying at FBS in football.

http://www.si.com/college-football/2014/08/21/army-black-knights-jeff-monken

The generals and the admirals will not allow their academies to be 'down graded'.

[Go Green]

The generals and the admirals will not allow their academies to be 'down graded'.

There is no need for the admirals to downgrade their academy. Navy is doing fine. If you're ahead of Ohio State at halftime, then you are a legit FBS team.

Army on the other hand... if you look at their schedule (which is pretty weak) it's hard to see them getting more than three wins. And they could very well end up something like 1-11. If they really think that hiring yet another toughass coach is going to change things, then they can keep on dreaming.

[Pard4Life]

There is no need for the admirals to downgrade their academy. Navy is doing fine. If you're ahead of Ohio State at halftime, then you are a legit FBS team.

Army on the other hand... if you look at their schedule (which is pretty weak) it's hard to see them getting more than three wins. And they could very well end up something like 1-11. If they really think that hiring yet another toughass coach is going to change things, then they can keep on dreaming.

Right, and they can't use the excuse that they are a service academy... look at Navy and Air Force. May not be perennial top 25 programs, but they can knock off a power team if the timing is right.