Bill & Mary changing logo

[AppGuy04]

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9718882

RICHMOND, Va. -- The feathers are flying at the College of William & Mary, right off the school's athletic logo.

In response to a ruling by the NCAA that called the imagery offensive to Native Americans, the school said Tuesday that it plans to phase out the use of two Indian feathers.

In a letter to the Williamsburg school's community, college president Gene R. Nichol lashed out about the NCAA's sanctions that ultimately forced the school to stop using the green and gold logo it has had since the late 1970s.

[aceinthehole]

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9718882

RICHMOND, Va. -- The feathers are flying at the College of William & Mary, right off the school's athletic logo.

In response to a ruling by the NCAA that called the imagery offensive to Native Americans, the school said Tuesday that it plans to phase out the use of two Indian feathers.

In a letter to the Williamsburg school's community, college president Gene R. Nichol lashed out about the NCAA's sanctions that ultimately forced the school to stop using the green and gold logo it has had since the late 1970s.

Sorry to all the W&M fans. This is just crazy.

The NCAA is out of control! Its funny how the I-A schools had no problems - Florida State, Illinois, Central Michigan, and Utah.

A proud and strong academic school beaten down by the overzelous NCAA. Way to go Mr. Brand, you are doing a fu$king terrible job!

[DTSpider]

W&M has chosen to take the higher road again. I applaud them for that.

[Ronbo]

I find it interesting that the images are found offensive. I live about 25 miles from a large reservation in the Flathead. When you drive through the towns up there all the Official Indian Reservation buildings proudly display Indian Images. The schools have mascots such as Braves and have huge paintings of Indian Warriors on the Gym. The Tribal Police have a Logo with feathers flowing from it. Hmmm.... I wonder what the agenda is? If that stuff is offensive why are they so proud of it on the Res.?

[MplsBison]

Illinois wasn't totally unscathed.

I think they had to stop using an indian mascot.


Though you're right about Utah, C Mich, and FSU.

I believe those 3 schools had pretty unanimous support from their respective tribal nations.

[MplsBison]

I find it interesting that the images are found offensive. I live about 25 miles from a large reservation in the Flathead. When you drive through the towns up there all the Official Indian Reservation buildings proudly display Indian Images. The schools have mascots such as Braves and have huge paintings of Indian Warriors on the Gym. The Tribal Police have a Logo with feathers flowing from it. Hmmm.... I wonder what the agenda is? If that stuff is offensive why are they so proud of it on the Res.?

My theory (could be completely wrong) is that some of the tribal nations absolutely hate and want nothing to do with the federal and state governments.

IE, they don't like state schools using "their" culture.


Private schools simply are caught being on the same sinking ship as state schools.

[Dane96]

Sorry to all the W&M fans. This is just crazy.

The NCAA is out of control! Its funny how the I-A schools had no problems - Florida State, Illinois, Central Michigan, and Utah.

A proud and strong academic school beaten down by the overzelous NCAA. Way to go Mr. Brand, you are doing a fu$king terrible job!

I have been quite on this issue for quite sometime, but I have had it with the NCAA. This, is a public service essay!

I understand why W&M is going to do this (not wanting to ruffle feathers ;)), however I think they should file a similar TRO against the NCAA.

Bottom line, while UND has a very serious problem with the structuring of financial packages and tie-ins to SIOUX logos and they need to sue, if more schools would ban together to FIGHT THE NCAA on this issue it would actually help many more issues than just this one, down the line.

The NCAA is ridiculous these days, high and mighty on certain topics but oblivious to others (it took this freaking long to realize certain high school/preps were basketball factories?!?!).

For a group that is 90% concerned with the financial bottom line and 10% with the actual welfare of ALL STUDENTS, they should understand how certain brand marketing effects the individual schools.

No question in my mind, if the Indian moniker was used in a derogatory fashion (I personally think Redskins is the worst of the bunch), we would have a different outcome.

Let's put it this way. The NCAA is NOT a public entity (a state high school association may, or may not be depending on the situation). There is VERY limited difference between the NFL and the NCAA. From a legal perspective, the NCAA and NFL are in the same boat as to whether or not they can legislate on the use of team nicknames.

It is obvious as to why the NFL wont force the Redskins to change their name: THEY ARE THE MOST VALUEABLE FRANCHISE IN SPORTS, yes, ahead of the Yankees and Manchester United.

Similarly, we have Florida State and the rest of the schools who got to keep their name after appeals. Using some assinine logic of "group support", the NCAA allowed certain schools to keep their names. WHY? Same reason as the Redskins are allowed to do so by the NFL: MONEY, PERIOD, END OF STORY!!

IF UND and W&M were NCAA cash cows...bet your asses this would be moot.

It is about time people band together and wake the NCAA up to the point where they are tackling serious issues: scandels, unscrupulous street agents/prep schools, playoffs, etc.

This stand is a half-assed one on behalf of the NCAA. If a school was using the term "Central Michigan Natives", or "William and Mary Head Scalpers", or "University of North Dakota Brown Skins", I would stand behind them with all my might.

The issue they are trying to legislate is truly making a mountain out of a molehill.

I am sure there are many conservative, non-football fanatical, Irish descendants who are offended by the term FIGHTIN IRISH. You think the NCAA would force Notre Dame to drop that moniker if a push were made?! HELL NO!

Fightin Irish, however is no more derogatory than Fightin Sioux. I am intelligent enough to know the horrific atrocities suffered by the Native American Indians, however Irishman also suffered some pretty bad conditions, jailings, beatings, forced labor (see the Civil War), etc., by the U.S. government.

That is NOT a reason to be used by Irishmen to dump the Fightin Irish moniker.

It is one thing for a state to legislate schools that receive state monies, even the semi-private (W&M) state schools. It is another for a private, third party institution to do so...in sporadic fashion, which IS KEY HERE!!! EVERY SCHOOL RECEIVES FEDERAL MONIES...You dont see Congress legislating this, something they could legally do.

THE NCAA NEEDS TO BAN IT COMPLETELY...OR STEP OFF THE TOPIC. HYPOCRISCY (SP?) IS THE WORST SIN OF THIS WHOLE ISSUE!

Again, I understand William and Mary's acquiesence, however I wish they would band together with other schools and fight! Such a fight, howver, would cost upwards of 350k per month, plus trial fees...getting into the 15mm range for such a suit...at best!

JMHO!

[Dane96]

My theory (could be completely wrong) is that some of the tribal nations absolutely hate and want nothing to do with the federal and state governments.

IE, they don't like state schools using "their" culture.


Private schools simply are caught being on the same sinking ship as state schools.


Here's the thing though...THE STATES ARE NOT OUTLAWING THE USE...it is a third party to a third party. UNHEARD OF!!! Basically, certain groups are circumventing the same state and govt entities that fund them, to outlaw a group which IS a third party itself (private schools) or a state school.

Ridiculous!

[gophoenix]

Ugh, stupid PC garbage.

To note, one small school won too: UNC-Pembroke.

When is the NCAA going to make Furman change (well, change again) from the Paladins. War like man that offends me ;)

Or what about the WVU and App Mountaineers.... how offensive is that to people living in the Appalachians?

[HensRock]

Williamsburg, VA -- In an effort to appease the NCAA in it's rampant campaign of political correctness, The College of William & Mary today unveiled a new proposed logo for Tribe athletics. The NCAA had called the previous use of two Indian feathers, "offensive to Native Americans".

"We've done extensive market research in coming up with the new logo to ensure that it is not offensive to any reasonable group of people", says the College's Minister of Public Relations, Faulker Huber. "We quite confident that no reasonably intelligent person could possibly find this new logo in any way offensive. Lord knows, we don't want to have to go through this useless excercise again any time soon."

The new logo is in keeping with the historic traditions of the College as a bastion of forward thinking and free speech in a brave new world.

http://www.gohens.net/images/NewWMLogo.jpg

GO TRIBE

[Ivytalk]

Williamsburg, VA -- In an effort to appease the NCAA in it's rampant campaign of political correctness, The College of William & Mary today unveiled a new proposed logo for Tribe athletics. The NCAA had called the previous use of two Indian feathers, "offensive to Native Americans".

"We've done extensive market research in coming up with the new logo to ensure that it is not offensive to any reasonable group of people", says the College's Minister of Public Relations, Faulker Huber. "We quite confident that no reasonably intelligent person could possibly find this new logo in any way offensive. Lord knows, we don't want to have to go through this useless excercise again any time soon."

The new logo is in keeping with the historic traditions of the College as a bastion of forward thinking and free speach in a brave new world.

http://www.gohens.net/images/NewWMLogo.jpg

GO TRIBE

Outstanding! :bow: :bow: :hurray: :hurray:

[AppGuy04]

Williamsburg, VA -- In an effort to appease the NCAA in it's rampant campaign of political correctness, The College of William & Mary today unveiled a new proposed logo for Tribe athletics. The NCAA had called the previous use of two Indian feathers, "offensive to Native Americans".

"We've done extensive market research in coming up with the new logo to ensure that it is not offensive to any reasonable group of people", says the College's Minister of Public Relations, Faulker Huber. "We quite confident that no reasonably intelligent person could possibly find this new logo in any way offensive. Lord knows, we don't want to have to go through this useless excercise again any time soon."

The new logo is in keeping with the historic traditions of the College as a bastion of forward thinking and free speach in a brave new world.

http://www.gohens.net/images/NewWMLogo.jpg

GO TRIBE

Nice, I want a t-shirt

[dbackjon]

http://www.gohens.net/images/NewWMLogo.jpg

GO TRIBE

:hurray: :hurray:

[Tribe4SF]

That logo already exists with the NCAA and finger over two feathers in the form of car magnets that have been selling like hotcakes. Local entrepreneurs have designed a number of t-shirts, feather magnets, etc.

[Blue Hen Nation]

The college can always resurrect Ebirt. He's warm, friendy and PC.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[FUwolfpacker]

http://www.gohens.net/images/NewWMLogo.jpg

GO TRIBE

xsmileyclapx xlolx xsmileyclapxxlolx xsmileyclapx BRILLIANT!:hurray::bow: :hurray: :bow: :hurray:

[arkstfan]

{Sigh}

The letters WM with two feathers is hostile and abusive? : smh :

Now I'll admit there is a nice side impact of the NCAA edict. Arkansas State finally rids itself of "Letterhead Joe" our bland logo.
http://finance.astate.edu/images/ASU%20Spirit.jpg

Now we go back to what we used for twenty years until some marketing genius told us to totally eliminate it. xidiotx

Fan demand finally forced the school to bring back the old logo and now its been "re-adopted" to comply with the NCAA mandate
https://www.nmnathletics.com/ecomphotos1/400/194/8194.jpg

[goasu984Life]

Williamsburg, VA -- In an effort to appease the NCAA in it's rampant campaign of political correctness, The College of William & Mary today unveiled a new proposed logo for Tribe athletics. The NCAA had called the previous use of two Indian feathers, "offensive to Native Americans".

"We've done extensive market research in coming up with the new logo to ensure that it is not offensive to any reasonable group of people", says the College's Minister of Public Relations, Faulker Huber. "We quite confident that no reasonably intelligent person could possibly find this new logo in any way offensive. Lord knows, we don't want to have to go through this useless excercise again any time soon."

The new logo is in keeping with the historic traditions of the College as a bastion of forward thinking and free speech in a brave new world.

http://www.gohens.net/images/NewWMLogo.jpg

GO TRIBE

That is just too awesome for words.

:thumbsup:

[ChickenMan]

W&M has a new logo...


http://www.san-val.com/images/t-specials/2004-03/2004-01/trashtruck4.jpg

:) :p :D

[HensRock]

That logo already exists with the NCAA and finger over two feathers in the form of car magnets that have been selling like hotcakes. Local entrepreneurs have designed a number of t-shirts, feather magnets, etc.

Can't use feathers. That would be offensive. :nono: xlolx

(I guess great minds think alike - sorta)

[blur2005]

The college can always resurrect Ebirt. He's warm, friendy and PC.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
Shucks, someone beat me to it. With a mascot like that, how can you say William & Mary is out to offend anyone? :)

[LeopardFan04]

http://www.gohens.net/images/NewWMLogo.jpg




:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

[Apps32]

Should the NCAA not threaten to move their headquarters until the names of the city and state they are in are changed from the offensive and hostile Indianapolis and Indiana to Native Americanapolis and Native Americana?

[Dane96]

NOW THAT...that's funny!!!!

[dbackjon]

Should the NCAA not threaten to move their headquarters until the names of the city and state they are in are changed from the offensive and hostile Indianapolis and Indiana to Native Americanapolis and Native Americana?

:hurray: :hurray:

Oh, the irony!!

[Pard4Life]

Well what about the Notre Dame Fighting Irish?

I now know all Irish are 'fightin mad and mighty drunk thanks to you Notre Dame! Let's change the logo!

If the NCAA got serious about changing that logo I bet there would be a few assasinations :rolleyes:

[AZGrizFan]

Williamsburg, VA -- In an effort to appease the NCAA in it's rampant campaign of political correctness, The College of William & Mary today unveiled a new proposed logo for Tribe athletics. The NCAA had called the previous use of two Indian feathers, "offensive to Native Americans".

"We've done extensive market research in coming up with the new logo to ensure that it is not offensive to any reasonable group of people", says the College's Minister of Public Relations, Faulker Huber. "We quite confident that no reasonably intelligent person could possibly find this new logo in any way offensive. Lord knows, we don't want to have to go through this useless excercise again any time soon."

The new logo is in keeping with the historic traditions of the College as a bastion of forward thinking and free speech in a brave new world.

http://www.gohens.net/images/NewWMLogo.jpg

GO TRIBE


Hmmmm. Isn't that something. You learn something knew every day here on AGS. I'm 44 years old, and all this time, I never knew Indians had feathers.

I thought all feathers came from BIRDS!!!!!

[Dane96]

Well what about the Notre Dame Fighting Irish?

I now know all Irish are 'fightin mad and mighty drunk thanks to you Notre Dame! Let's change the logo!

If the NCAA got serious about changing that logo I bet there would be a few assasinations :rolleyes:


Read my long, legal inspired post on the first page. I cover this very same thing.

[Tribe4SF]

Shucks, someone beat me to it. With a mascot like that, how can you say William & Mary is out to offend anyone? :)

We offended only ourselves with Ebirt.:o

[Tribe4SF]

Can't use feathers. That would be offensive. :nono: xlolx

(I guess great minds think alike - sorta)

I got the idea for the car magnets last June from a column in the Peoria paper about how our situation was far more ridiculous than their Bradley Braves. The Sports Editor concluded his rant by saying..."William and Mary needs to send the NCAA a bird it can understand!"

And, yes, great minds do think alike!:bow:

[aceinthehole]

A few quick questions:

1) Did the NCAA really say the the feather logo was "offensive," yet the nickname "Tribe" was not?

2) Will the team still be refered to as "Tribe" and can use the name on uniforms, etc?

3) I think W&M should keep the nickname and logo, however, how can the NCAA rationalize that feathers are offfensie, but the nickname isn't?

4) What is W&M goin to do for a new logo, or will it just remove the feathers?

BTW - I like the "new logo" proposed on this board :) and I hate the NCAA :mad:

[flexbone]

I find it interesting that the images are found offensive. I live about 25 miles from a large reservation in the Flathead. When you drive through the towns up there all the Official Indian Reservation buildings proudly display Indian Images. The schools have mascots such as Braves and have huge paintings of Indian Warriors on the Gym. The Tribal Police have a Logo with feathers flowing from it. Hmmm.... I wonder what the agenda is? If that stuff is offensive why are they so proud of it on the Res.?

Great post. A school doesn't pick a nickname to belittle itself.
Nicknames are given because they represent something positive.
People and schools want to be Lions, Tigers, Bears, Fightin Irish, or Braves. Not dumbasses , losers, or the weak.

[TheTribeHasSpoken]

That logo already exists with the NCAA and finger over two feathers in the form of car magnets that have been selling like hotcakes. Local entrepreneurs have designed a number of t-shirts, feather magnets, etc.
What are the t-shirts? I got the finger over two feathers one and the plain ol' 2 feathers one, but need some shirts:nod:

[HiHiYikas]

I know this is a preposterous scenario, but I'm curious about what would happen if W&M changed the name of their mascot to "The Feathers?" Could they keep them in that case?

[JohnStOnge]

This is so stupid.

[igo4uni]

Should the NCAA not threaten to move their headquarters until the names of the city and state they are in are changed from the offensive and hostile Indianapolis and Indiana to Native Americanapolis and Native Americana?

Good point.

[tribe_pride]

A few quick questions:

1) Did the NCAA really say the the feather logo was "offensive," yet the nickname "Tribe" was not?

2) Will the team still be refered to as "Tribe" and can use the name on uniforms, etc?

3) I think W&M should keep the nickname and logo, however, how can the NCAA rationalize that feathers are offfensie, but the nickname isn't?

4) What is W&M goin to do for a new logo, or will it just remove the feathers?

BTW - I like the "new logo" proposed on this board :) and I hate the NCAA :mad:

1) Yes that is exactly what the NCAA said

2) Yes we can keep "Tribe"

3) President Nichol sent out a letter today stating we would not keep the logo because (1) we would not be able to host any NCAA championship events and we currently have a nationally ranked women's soccer team that has a chance to host a playoff game but won't if we keep the logo, (2) our resources are better spent on the students, and (3) he does not want the NCAA to miscast our thoughts towards Native Americans which they would do if we sued them.

By the Way, the NCAA's rationale was "the committee believes that coupling the term “Tribe” with imagery that has traditionally been linked to Native Americans, for example eagle feathers and arrowheads, transforms that use from one associated with “togetherness,” “shared idealism,” and “commitment” to a stereotypical reference to Native Americans...The committee believes that while the college’s rationale for the use of the nickname and imagery is not inherently hostile or abusive, and the college may not intend to malign Native Americans, the continued use of such Native American references creates an environment over which an institution may not have full control. Fans, opponents, and others can and will exhibit behaviors that indeed are hostile or abusive to Native Americans"

4)We are currently looking for a new logo

Most that I have talked to hate the NCAA's decision and reluctantly agree (as I do) that President Nichol did the right thing. If UND wins their suit against the NCAA, we could always sue then but right now, I think it is a losing suit. That NCAA explanation is just impossible to argue against because it is so irrational.

[Dane96]

It would be a winning suit, however your President is right....the $$$ are better spent elsewhere. The NCAA, bet your piggybank, is hoping schools would rather spend the money on students than a suit.

[arkstfan]

I'm not sure that a lawsuit on this issue is a winner.

I don't want to see Sammy Seminole or Arkansas State's "Jumping Joe" come back, those logos are so cartoony that they can easily be taken as offensive.

The problem I have is the idea that nicknames in and of themself are offensive because they are intended to ridicule, that just is illogical. The argument is often made what if a team were called __________ (insert slur here)? Well teams weren't called whichever slur because those groups weren't seen as having characteristics worthy of identifying with. The question that should be asked is why do people not want to be affiliated with that minority group.

The fascinating thing to me is that Native American names started being adopted at a time when there was a significant number of Indian Wars veterans still alive. It amazes me that the victors saw the enemy as worthy of identifying with. Those veterans would have been about the age of many of our Vietnam War veterans today. Can you imagine a school adopting the name Viet Cong today?

[Tribe4SF]

What are the t-shirts? I got the finger over two feathers one and the plain ol' 2 feathers one, but need some shirts:nod:

The nicest ones have the two feathers on the back, and "Feathers Forever" on the front. Shirts are gold. Catch me at the QB Club and I'll link you to the guy who makes them. He's a QB Club member, and parks in the lot.

[Umass74]

The fascinating thing to me is that Native American names started being adopted at a time when there was a significant number of Indian Wars veterans still alive. It amazes me that the victors saw the enemy as worthy of identifying with. Those veterans would have been about the age of many of our Vietnam War veterans today. Can you imagine a school adopting the name Viet Cong today?

A lot of people and insititutions during early days seemed to identify with or honor Native Americans.

People named their kids with Indian Names--William Techumsa Sherman.

The US Navy has a long history of naming ships for Native America tribes or leaders. The whole Moniter Class of ships during the Civil War was given Indian Names. Several SBN submarines were named after Native American leaders.

[tribe_pride]

As for W&M, we have had a long standing history with Native Americans dating back to our early years when we housed the first Native American school in America. The Brafferton House, which was the building where classes were held, still stands on the campus.

[arkstfan]

A lot of people and insititutions during early days seemed to identify with or honor Native Americans.

People named their kids with Indian Names--William Techumsa Sherman.

The US Navy has a long history of naming ships for Native America tribes or leaders. The whole Moniter Class of ships during the Civil War was given Indian Names. Several SBN submarines were named after Native American leaders.

Isn't that odd though. I can kind of understand the fascination in first part of the 20th century. Rapid techological change could easily cause people to identify with intimate culture of a Native American tribe or the simpler lifestyle, but Sherman is a great example, he was born in an era when relations often turned sour with the tribes.

[Umass74]

From the US Navy history site

(on Civil War Names) Many ships, including gunboats and monitors, bore names of American Indian origin, such as Owasco, Sagamore, Saugus, and Onondaga.

(on current ship names) Fleet tugs, big seagoing ships capable of rescue and firefighting as well as towing, bear American Indian names (Powhatan, Navajo)

[CatFan22]

W&M has a new logo...


http://www.san-val.com/images/t-specials/2004-03/2004-01/trashtruck4.jpg

:) :p :D

LOL. That's what I think of EVERY time a see a Waste Management commercial. I love it! xlolx

[Apps32]

Great post. A school doesn't pick a nickname to belittle itself.
Nicknames are given because they represent something positive.
People and schools want to be Lions, Tigers, Bears, Fightin Irish, or Braves. Not dumbasses , losers, or the weak.

Well, Terriers. Other than that, though I would agree. xlolx