Fordham - how do you fumble in victory formation?

[Squealofthepig]

OK, there aren't a lot of Fordham and Bucknell fans on the board for some reason, but the end of this game was just bizarre, and it seems no one is talking about it.

Fordham manages to get in position to just run out the clock, and the second string quarterback FUMBLES in victory formation. Bucknell drives and (assisted by what many called a questionable flag against the Rams) drive to be in position for a game-winning field-goal.........which Fordham blocks to seal the win.

ESPN box: http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=333132230

Highlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE9-t3sz88E (from Fordham - some day they may discover the right channel on their sound mixing board) - fumble at about the 7:40 mark

[MTfan4life]

Watching the play it looks like both the QB and RB were looking around with their hands up as if they were asking the refs if the defense is allowed to push them over during that play. Is this the first time they've ever taken a knee?

[Squealofthepig]

Watching the play it looks like both the QB and RB were looking around with their hands up as if they were asking the refs if the defense is allowed to push them over during that play. Is this the first time they've ever taken a knee?

Yeah - it is just such a bizarre series of events - I had expected AGS to be all over it, but couldn't find anything. (And no, I'm not slamming either Fordham or Bucknell - just find the whole end of the game unique and thought it should be more well known here!)

[Mr. C]

Hey, if Joe Pisarcik, Larry Csonka and the New York Giants can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like that, so can Fordham. I can still see Herman Edwards running in for that Philadelphia Eagles touchdown. At least Fordham found a way to still win.

[ngineer]

Amazing finish. Can't ever recall seeing a fumble lost in 'victory formation'. Bucknell really a different team since Wesley returned. They will be up many nights thinking 'what could have been' had they had him all year.

[dudeitsaid]

Yeah - it is just such a bizarre series of events - I had expected AGS to be all over it, but couldn't find anything.

I'm sure they would have if it would have cost Fordham the game. Still very interesting to see. I've seen defenses try to disrupt the victory formation. But I've never seen one succeed! Never say die, I guess!

[JoltinJoe]

Watching the play it looks like both the QB and RB were looking around with their hands up as if they were asking the refs if the defense is allowed to push them over during that play. Is this the first time they've ever taken a knee?

I thought the Fordham players thought the Bucknell line jumped early and were asking the refs for the offsides flag. I only saw the play once, but I thought Bucknell dove in early.

[Fordham]

I thought the following post on our board summed it up pretty well. I was just sick listening to that as I was on a long drive today. Thought I might crash during that sequence especially as the signal kept going in and out:



I never saw a game like this one.* Within the last 55 seconds I said in sequence to my wife and daughter sitting with me in the stands.

With 55 seconds and ready to knell down for the victory in Bucknell territory.* "We won it.";D* *

Fumble on the kneel down!!* "Oh, no, we lost it!" :-\

2nd and 10 at the 30 for Bucknell with 34 seconds to go.* "We won it!!" :D

Pass interference putting Bucknell in field goal range with 1st down.* "We lost it###" >:(

Fumble by their quarterback on 3rd down.* "We Won it!!!" :o

Bad call by refs saying he downed it.* Field goal attempt coming with one second to go.* "On, no, lousy zebras.* We LOST IT***"???

Blocked/missed field goal, and no time on the clock.* "We WON IT!!!!!!! :P

A minute like that no sports fan should have to endure.

[Pards Rule]

Amazing finish. Can't ever recall seeing a fumble lost in 'victory formation'. Bucknell really a different team since Wesley returned. They will be up many nights thinking 'what could have been' had they had him all year.

Yes bizarre! The Miracle of the Meadowlands I at least had Pisarcik handing off to Czonka, not in victory formation. In fact the Giants fired the Offensive Coordinator the next day after that stunning loss.

[Fordham]

Go to the 8:20ish mark for the play before the fg. The same exact thing happens to the Bucknell QB where our DT shoves the C back so far that the QB loses control of the ball and fumbles. Amazingly, they say he actually spiked it and let Bucknell attempt the FG.

I've never seen that basically happen twice in the same game ( even though only one was called a fumble).

So strange

[bison137]

I thought the Fordham players thought the Bucknell line jumped early and were asking the refs for the offsides flag. I only saw the play once, but I thought Bucknell dove in early.


If you watch the video frame-by-frame, it appears the Fordham line moves before the Bucknell line. It just appears that they were expecting Bucknell to stand there and not go at them with any force. Same with Maetzold apparently. Instead two Bucknell interior linemen blew up the play.

[Fordham]

Isn't this the same thing that Schiano got ripped for doing at TB? Interesting that Susan from the same staff from Rutgers. Can't knock it IMO if it helps you get the win.

I would think you'll see a lot more victory formations where the QB alters the snap count to produce an easy off sides and possibly more including ejections, etc

[FordhamFan]

I think it's totally bush league to rush the center and qb in victory formation, but I have a very hard time arguing when it works.

Let's just say I wouldn't be surprised at all if Fordham starts taking it's kneel downs from the gun. Always wondered why teams who never take a snap under center do so when they need to secure the ball the most. Either way, crazy effing game.

[bison137]

I think it's totally bush league to rush the center and qb in victory formation, but I have a very hard time arguing when it works.




Why is trying to win the game bush league? Do you also consider it bush league for a basketball team to try to steal the ball when trailing by two in the final seconds?

It is only bush league in football if the defensive team is trailing by more than 8 points.

[Fordham]

I have no problem with the play but agree with the less than 8 point rule. Jeez, it almost worked and would have been a brilliant example of never giving up IMO if they made the field goal.

[ASU Tailgaiteer]

Why is trying to win the game bush league? Do you also consider it bush league for a basketball team to try to steal the ball when trailing by two in the final seconds?

It is only bush league in football if the defensive team is trailing by more than 8 points.

Absolutely agree that there is nothing bush league about this play. You compete until the final gun sounds (as long as you are within striking distance). How many legendary comebacks would have never happened if the trailing team conceded?
When I grew up playing Pop Warner football in the early 80's, it was considered "bush league" to strip the ball from a runner. Now, it's an every day, almost every play occurrence.

[Lehigh'98]

As O linemen, we were taught to fire off the ball in victory formation and expect the Dline to come after us. Nothing bush league about playing hard to the gun when the game is up for grabs.

[RichH2]

As O linemen, we were taught to fire off the ball in victory formation and expect the Dline to come after us. Nothing bush league about playing hard to the gun when the game is up for grabs.

Yup, both Hs and at LU drilled in firing out on every play. Line coach would pull anyone who didn't regardless of score,situation or time. Not a bush play to try to win.

[ace93]

I think it's totally bush league to rush the center and qb in victory formation, but I have a very hard time arguing when it works.

Let's just say I wouldn't be surprised at all if Fordham starts taking it's kneel downs from the gun. Always wondered why teams who never take a snap under center do so when they need to secure the ball the most. Either way, crazy effing game.

I don't think it is bush league at all, not when you still have a chance to win. I would say that even within 2 scores it might still be ok.

Fully agree with the idea that we might look into going into victory formation from the gun. At the same time, if the line does their job, it really should not be an issue.

Will also say that the FG attempt by Bucknell should not have taken place since they clearly fumbled that ball when attempting the spike. Crazy to think that we fumble in victory formation and they fumble when attempting to spike the ball (even though their fumble was not called).

[Hammerhead]

Most teams don't line up in the victory formation with a 2-point lead.

[ETSUfan1]

I thought there was a new rule that said when the clock is rolling you cant spike the ball in the last 3 seconds...

[Vooter]

Most teams don't line up in the victory formation with a 2-point lead.

Oh, really? You don't take a knee when you're leading by two, there are 55 seconds left, you're on the opponent's 33, they have no timeouts, and you have a first down? LOL...what do teams from North Dakota do in that situation?

[FordhamFan]

I thought there was a new rule that said when the clock is rolling you cant spike the ball in the last 3 seconds...

That was a hugeeee argument at the game yesterday. Moorhead (Fordham's HC) was out to the right hash yelling at the refs about it. I always feel for the zebras, my father used to officiate college football, but they struggled to stay consistent in the game yesterday, and by the end it seemed they were overwhelmed.

[bison137]

I thought there was a new rule that said when the clock is rolling you cant spike the ball in the last 3 seconds...


Not true. The rule says if there is less than 3 seconds remaining when the referees have stopped play to move the chains, then there is no expectation that there will be time to spike the ball before zero. The rule also specifically says that if there are three seconds left, the presumption is that there is enough time to spike it before zero.

In any event, this rule does not even apply to the Bucknell-Fordham situation since the clock was not stopped at all prior to the play.

[superman7515]

Hey, if Joe Pisarcik, Larry Csonka and the New York Giants can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like that, so can Fordham. I can still see Herman Edwards running in for that Philadelphia Eagles touchdown. At least Fordham found a way to still win.

Except that the Giants didn't line up for a "victory formation" QB kneel, it didn't even exist at the time, they lined up to run off tackle twice.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lysQ8xt_Css

[bison137]

I don't think it is bush league at all, not when you still have a chance to win. I would say that even within 2 scores it might still be ok.



Yes, I'd agree within two scores it's OK if there's still a reasonable amount of time left. If there are 20 seconds left and a team is trailing by two scores, then I'd question it.

[robsnotes4u]

Oh, really? You don't take a knee when you're leading by two, there are 55 seconds left, you're on the opponent's 33, they have no timeouts, and you have a first down? LOL...what do teams from North Dakota do in that situation?

At UND we are never in that situation, we will need to add that to the play book.


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[ASU_Fanatic]

guy had the most annoying voice ever, holy *****

[Pards Rule]

Kudos to the Bison!! Endorse the play wholeheartedly! You play to win not watch the clock strike zero!!!

[ElCid]

I just watched it about 10 times and the only thing that is for certain is that nobody watching this can tell if Bucknell jumped early or not because you can not see when the snap actually occurred. Frame by frame shows that each team moved almost instantaneously which is good on Bucknell if they actually timed it perfectly. HOWEVER, once they did move, what was Fordam to do even if had not been snapped? The ball may not have even been snapped yet. Again, you cannot tell when that happened and the center may have just snapped it once movement began. Not saying that happened, but unless you were on the line, it is just as likely. In any event, that had to be the craziest finish I have ever seen. The officials were obviously asleep during this whole thing.

[Mr. C]

I think it's totally bush league to rush the center and qb in victory formation, but I have a very hard time arguing when it works.

Let's just say I wouldn't be surprised at all if Fordham starts taking it's kneel downs from the gun. Always wondered why teams who never take a snap under center do so when they need to secure the ball the most. Either way, crazy effing game.
Most teams practice victory formation to end their walk-throughs on Fridays before the game the net day. There would be more statistical risk of a bad snap, or a fumbled snap, from shotgun than there would be going under center.

[Mr. C]

I just watched it about 10 times and the only thing that is for certain is that nobody watching this can tell if Bucknell jumped early or not because you can not see when the snap actually occurred. Frame by frame shows that each team moved almost instantaneously which is good on Bucknell if they actually timed it perfectly. HOWEVER, once they did move, what was Fordam to do even if had not been snapped? The ball may not have even been snapped yet. Again, you cannot tell when that happened and the center may have just snapped it once movement began. Not saying that happened, but unless you were on the line, it is just as likely. In any event, that had to be the craziest finish I have ever seen. The officials were obviously asleep during this whole thing.
From what has been described, it sounds like the officials were out to lunch on the play. They probably should have blown the play dead for a false start, or offsides with contact.

[Mr. C]

Except that the Giants didn't line up for a "victory formation" QB kneel, it didn't even exist at the time, they lined up to run off tackle twice.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lysQ8xt_Css
I didn't say that the Giants lined up in victory formation. Work on those reading skills. I just was making a comparison to a crazy ending.

[superman7515]

Let's see...
Question... "How do you fumble in victory formation?"
Reply... "Hey, if Joe Pisarcik, Larry Csonka and the New York Giants can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like that, so can Fordham."
Using proper English grammar, "Like that" = "fumbling in victory formation". If that isn't what you meant to say, perhaps you should have said what you meant.

[Mr. C]

Let's see...
Question... "How do you fumble in victory formation?"
Reply... "Hey, if Joe Pisarcik, Larry Csonka and the New York Giants can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like that, so can Fordham."
Using proper English grammar, "Like that" = "fumbling in victory formation". If that isn't what you meant to say, perhaps you should have said what you meant.
There isn't anything wrong with the grammar.

Liked your playoff summary, BTW, but you are being nit-picky here.