Sioux to Sue

[SactoHornetFan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2615396

North Dakota taking NCAA to court over nickname
Associated Press

FARGO, N.D. -- State officials filed a lawsuit Friday against the NCAA to challenge its restrictions on the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux nickname.

Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem said the lawsuit, filed in Northeast Central District Court in Grand Forks, alleges a breach of contract by the NCAA, a breach of good faith and illegal restraint of trade.

Stenehjem said the lawsuit seeks to allow the University of North Dakota to use the nickname throughout the school year without being sanctioned in possible postseason play, along with unspecified money damages.

The NCAA has banned the use of some American Indian nicknames and logo in postseason tournaments, saying they are hostile and abusive.

Stenehjem said the NCAA overstepped its bounds.

"This is about a process to be followed by the NCAA," he said.

"Frankly, I don't think that anybody, regardless of how they feel about the result, should be satisfied or pleased with the process," Stenehjem said.

The NCAA has 20 days to respond after it is served with the lawsuit, the attorney general said.

NCAA officials were not immediately available for comment. NCAA President Myles Brand has said the NCAA will defend its policy "to the utmost."

The state Board of Higher Education voted in June to file the lawsuit after two North Dakota appeals were rejected.

"This action by the NCAA keeps me from doing what the Board of Higher Education says we should do here," UND President Charles Kupchella said. He said the NCAA process was unfair and wrong.

Other schools initially deemed to have unsuitable nicknames by the NCAA have won the right to use their monikers on appeal. They include the Florida State University Seminoles, the Central Michigan University Chippewas and the University of Utah Utes.

A number of Indian students want UND to drop the nickname and logo. One official with the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe wrote a letter supporting the university, but another opposed the nickname.

A branch of the University of North Dakota Alumni Association set up a fund to help pay for the lawsuit after the state board of education said it must be financed with private money.

Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press

[Hansel]

I have never heard of this "UND"... but they appear to be a racist institution :p

[FargoBison]

I wish the Sioux luck in their upcoming battle with the NCAA and I hope that win or lose they can finally resolve this issue that has been ongoing for years up there.

[AggieFinn]

I personally don't think Native American names should be used for University mascots. It seems wrong that the descendants of those who colonized and stole this country from the Indians and created universities for learning should use their tribal name as a mascot. And then make some Indian guy costume to run around in like a cartoon, just seems wrong. College and university were never a Native thing to begin with, but times change and maybe it's all good now. NDSU's Bison seems more appropriate...UND Prairie Dogs?

Before they take UND to court, let's tackle the Washington Redskin business? WTH? :cool:

http://www.fightingsioux.com/photos/2306.jpghttp://www.logoserver.com/college/NorthDakotaFightingSioux5.GIFhttp://www.dcist.com/attachments/dcist_mattbourque/Washington-Redskins-logo.jpg

[bison95]

I personally don't think Native American names should be used for University mascots. It seems wrong that the descendants of those who colonized and stole this country from the Indians and created universities for learning should use their tribal name as a mascot. And then make some Indian guy costume to run around in like a cartoon, just seems wrong. College and university were never a Native thing to begin with, but times change and maybe it's all good now. NDSU's Bison seems more appropriate...UND Prairie Dogs?

Before they take UND to court, let's tackle the Washington Redskin business? WTH? :cool:

http://www.fightingsioux.com/photos/2306.jpghttp://www.logoserver.com/college/NorthDakotaFightingSioux5.GIFhttp://www.dcist.com/attachments/dcist_mattbourque/Washington-Redskins-logo.jpg



Public Institution VS. Private Business

[AggieFinn]

Public Institution VS. Private Business

$$$ messes everything up.:cool:

[TexasTerror]

Props to North Dakota...

I'll be pulling for the soon to be I-AA...just another example of the NCAA going after a school not in the BS...there's no BS in the CS...

[Gordon Shumway]

How the NCAA can single out UND on this issue is mind boggling. It is OK for the FSU's of the world, but not UND, who by the way has more American Indian studies & opportunities than any university in the country.

UND has a lot to lose on this issue. It boils down to hockey and money (the post-season variety). I've also heard rumblings that their major benefactor, Ralph Englestad, had stipulations in his endowments regarding never changing the Fighting Sioux name. Maybe someone from ND can speak more authoritativley on that, as it is really conjecture on my part.

BTW their 11,000+ seat hockey arena is a palace, and a sight to behold (Ralph Engelstad Arena).

[SactoHornetFan]

I personally don't think Native American names should be used for University mascots. It seems wrong that the descendants of those who colonized and stole this country from the Indians and created universities for learning should use their tribal name as a mascot. And then make some Indian guy costume to run around in like a cartoon, just seems wrong. College and university were never a Native thing to begin with, but times change and maybe it's all good now. NDSU's Bison seems more appropriate...UND Prairie Dogs?

Before they take UND to court, let's tackle the Washington Redskin business? WTH? :cool:

So then you must have a problem with the Notre Dame Fighting Irish then? :eyebrow:

[Hansel]

How the NCAA can single out UND on this issue is mind boggling. It is OK for the FSU's of the world, but not UND, who by the way has more American Indian studies & opportunities than any university in the country.

UND has a lot to lose on this issue. It boils down to hockey and money (the post-season variety). I've also heard rumblings that their major benefactor, Ralph Englestad, had stipulations in his endowments regarding never changing the Fighting Sioux name. Maybe someone from ND can speak more authoritativley on that, as it is really conjecture on my part.

BTW their 11,000+ seat hockey arena is a palace, and a sight to behold (Ralph Engelstad Arena).
FSU has tribal endorsement for their nickname as does CMU etc

"UND" does not

[AZGrizFan]

Next up, us Irish take Notre Dame to court to get them to stop being offensive and abusive to us poor Irish with the "Fighting Irish" nickname. It's horrible, offensive, and I lay awake at night with horrible visions of drunk Irish bums in fisticuffs outside the local pub in Dublin. :bawling: :bawling: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Gordon Shumway]

FSU has tribal endorsement for their nickname as does CMU etc

"UND" does not

I am not an Indian tribal expert, but I'm pretty sure UND has the support of some main tribal leaders, and there are a minor number against the name. UND has the problem that there are many Sioux tribes, and only one has to object for the NCAA to feel justified. I live in Florida, and the Seminole tribe of Florida supports FSU, but it is all one tribe from a leadership perspective. However, the Seminole tribe in Georgia vehemently objected, but were ignored.

[AggieFinn]

FSU has tribal endorsement for their nickname as does CMU etc

"UND" does not

I'm not sure what tribal endorsement truly means in today's economy. Anybody from or close to the Res on this board who could shed some light? As for the Irish, and any other race being used as a mascot, it seems fundamentally wrong to me personally. It's so well established that I imagine most folks don't really care, and would rather just let it be. :cool:

[Hansel]

I am not an Indian tribal expert, but I'm pretty sure UND has the support of some main tribal leaders, and there are a minor number against the name. UND has the problem that there are many Sioux tribes, and only one has to object for the NCAA to feel justified. I live in Florida, and the Seminole tribe of Florida supports FSU, but it is all one tribe from a leadership perspective. However, the Seminole tribe in Georgia vehemently objected, but were ignored.
pretty sure they don't have an endorsement

One local tribe stated that they have no problem with the nickname- while other tribal councils have written resolultions against the nickname

the president of "UND" has spun this as tribal approval

[Hansel]

I'm not sure what tribal endorsement truly means in today's economy. Anybody from or close to the Res on this board who could shed some light? As for the Irish, and any other race being used as a mascot, it seems fundamentally wrong to me personally. It's so well established that I imagine most folks don't really care, and would rather just let it be. :cool:
don't know what it means either- but it was explicitly stated as the reason for the waivers for FSU et al

[Gordon Shumway]

pretty sure they don't have an endorsement

One local tribe stated that they have no problem with the nickname- while other tribal councils have written resolultions against the nickname

the president of "UND" has spun this as tribal approval

I go back to my original point. UND has apparently a received a mixed message/endorsement from tribal leaders, which is not good enough for the NC$$. FSU has received a mixed message/endorsement from tribal leaders, which is good enough for the NC$$.

BTW, I support FSU and believe their use of the Seminole mascot is done tastefully, and with respect. I just feel UND is being unfairly singled out because they don't have the same support base as the BCS schools.

[UNHknowledge]

I agree with AggieFinn on this subject. With a race issue such as the one with mascot representation, I think that it should only take 1 tribal leader to be offended in order to get rid of the name. There should be no issue with $ or with a majority decision. The chiefs that are opposed to the nicknames are not asking for $1million, they're simply asking for schools to drop nicknames that they feel are personally offensive. There is infinite names that these institutions could change their names to. None of the schools that have changed their names due to this issue have lost success because of a nickname. The great long distance runner Billy Mills spoke to student athletes at UNH when I was there and he felt very strongly about the mascot issue. Hearing his testimony in person and the emotion that he spoke with was enough for me to understand why schools should drop these nicknames.

[Hansel]

I agree with AggieFinn on this subject. With a race issue such as the one with mascot representation, I think that it should only take 1 tribal leader to be offended in order to get rid of the name. There should be no issue with $ or with a majority decision. The chiefs that are opposed to the nicknames are not asking for $1million, they're simply asking for schools to drop nicknames that they feel are personally offensive. There is infinite names that these institutions could change their names to. None of the schools that have changed their names due to this issue have lost success because of a nickname. The great long distance runner Billy Mills spoke to student athletes at UNH when I was there and he felt very strongly about the mascot issue. Hearing his testimony in person and the emotion that he spoke with was enough for me to understand why schools should drop these nicknames.
Billy Mills was part Sioux

[star2city]

pretty sure they don't have an endorsement

One local tribe stated that they have no problem with the nickname- while other tribal councils have written resolultions against the nickname

the president of "UND" has spun this as tribal approval
Spin from an NDSU fan. xcoffeex

The Spirit Lake Reservation has never withdrawn their 2000 resolution of support for the Sioux name, even after prodding from the NCAA. The Standing Rock Reservation's Council opposes the name, although the Standing ROck Judicial Committee, which favors the name, found that reservation members overwhelmingly supported the name in the districts that were allowed to vote.

In Michigan, the Saginaw Valley Chippewa Tribal Council supports Central Michigan's Chippewa nickname. While all the other Chippewa Tribes in Michigan oppose CMU's use of the name. The NCAA affirmed CMU's use of the name without even checking with other Michigan Chippewa tribes (and apparently the NCAA was even ignorant of their existence until after CMU's exemption). If the NCAA was truly acting in a non-biased manner, UND would also have received an exemption.

The legal documents for this case are posted at: http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7007

[The Sicatoka]

pretty sure they don't have an endorsement

One local tribe stated that they have no problem with the nickname- while other tribal councils have written resolultions against the nickname

the president of "UND" has spun this as tribal approval

Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe Resolution A05-01-041:

" ... not opposed to keeping the "Fighting Sioux" name and present Logo at UND"

That's the nearest Sioux Tribe to UND. That's the criteria that got Central Michigan a waiver (nearest Chippewa Tribe). That's the criteria that got Florida State a waiver (nearest Seminole Tribe).

This case is not about the policy, it's about how the policy was implemented, namely in breech of the contract between the NCAA and its (all of its) members, and the unequal implementation of it (UND no waiver; CMU waiver).

The situation (the strong-armed, not following the designated process within the NCAA structure, enacting of this "policy") is best summed up here:


" ... if the NCAA can to this to us by executive fiat, who knows what the limits of that kind of action would be? ... this is a threat to all of us — no matter what your nickname. -- Charles E. Kupchella, Ph. D., president, University of North Dakota

[UNHknowledge]

Billy Mills was part Sioux

Indeed, and unless he drastically changed his opinion on this issue in the last 6 years then he would want UND to change their name.

[star2city]

With a race issue such as the one with mascot representation, I think that it should only take 1 tribal leader to be offended in order to get rid of the name. There should be no issue with $ or with a majority decision. The chiefs that are opposed to the nicknames are not asking for $1million, they're simply asking for schools to drop nicknames that they feel are personally offensive. There is infinite names that these institutions could change their names to. None of the schools that have changed their names due to this issue have lost success because of a nickname. The great long distance runner Billy Mills spoke to student athletes at UNH when I was there and he felt very strongly about the mascot issue. Hearing his testimony in person and the emotion that he spoke with was enough for me to understand why schools should drop these nicknames.By that same logic, any non-Native American should not legally be allowed to wear a feather or any article of Native clothing if it offends one tribal leader. Your embrace of emotion rather than reason and your apparent rejection of associated personal and corporate liberties are actually a step toward totalitarianism. There is no right to be non-offended.

Living on the Gulf Coast, I can claim I am highly offended by the Hurricane nickname. Should my or my neighbors offense be sufficient justification for Miami or Tulsa to change their nicknames?

FWIW, UND does not have a mascot (unlike FSU, Illinois, CMU, Utah), it has a logo and a nickname. The only people who are ever dressed as authentic Sioux at UND athletic events are actual Sioux, and this is only occasionally.

[bison95]

By that same logic, any non-Native American should not legally be allowed to wear a feather or any article of Native clothing if it offends one tribal leader. Your embrace of emotion rather than reason and your apparent rejection of associated personal and corporate liberties are actually a step toward totalitarianism. There is no right to be non-offended.

Living on the Gulf Coast, I can claim I am highly offended by the Hurricane nickname. Should my or my neighbors offence be sufficient justification for Miami or Tulsa to change their nicknames?

FWIW, UND does not have a mascot (unlike FSU, Illinois, CMU, Utah), it has a logo and a nickname. The only people who are ever dressed as authentic Sioux at UND athletic events are actual Sioux, and this is only occasionally.

What happened to the "bleacher creature"

[The Sicatoka]

Indeed, and unless he drastically changed his opinion on this issue in the last 6 years then he would want UND to change their name.

That's his opinion. He's entitled to it. (Ain't it a great country?)

But what about,

Most Indians Say Name of Washington “Redskins” Is Acceptable While 9 Percent Call It Offensive, Annenberg Data Show (http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf#search=%22Annenberg%20Redskins%22)

or,

"Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no."
Source: Peter Harris Research Group, Inc., as reported in Sports Illustrated, March 4, 2002, page 69.
Methodology: The pollsters interviewed 351 Native Americans (217 living on reservations, 134 living off). The responses were weighted according to US census figures for age, race, gender, and the distribution of Native Americans living on and off reservations.
Margin of error: Plus or minus 4 percent.

What about their opinion?


PS - Thankfully the "bleacher creature" crept way away. :)

[The Sicatoka]

The quick summary of "State of ND v. NCAA" is here:

http://www.ag.state.nd.us/documents/10-06-06.pdf

The other (previous) link has the full filings.

I hear anti-trust violations come with triple damages compensation to the injuried party .... ;)

[UNHknowledge]

I did not post to argue...i posted to give my opinion and I stick to it. Anyways, it seems like UND is very supportive of the Sioux and the Sioux are very supportive of UND and I think it's pretty cool that they do not have an animated native american mascot.

p.s. Hurricanes are not people nor do they have anything to do with race (so bad analogy).

[SactoHornetFan]

Its finally nice to see a State take on the NCAA. Here's where academia meets the real world :hurray:

[AZGrizFan]

I did not post to argue...i posted to give my opinion and I stick to it. Anyways, it seems like UND is very supportive of the Sioux and the Sioux are very supportive of UND and I think it's pretty cool that they do not have an animated native american mascot.

p.s. Hurricanes are not people nor do they have anything to do with race (so bad analogy).

Yeah, but what about my "Fightin' Irish" analogy? I'm one pissed off Irishman right now, I'll tell you what!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[RobsPics]

So then you must have a problem with the Notre Dame Fighting Irish then? :eyebrow:

Not the same.

I never heard of the Irish population getting upset over the ND mascot.

If there is a Native American tribe upset over a mascot, then the issue should be addressed. Native Americans...men, women and children...were SLAUGHTERED and almost obliterated from that face of the earth with the consent of the US Government.

True...it was a long time ago, and the people rsponsible are long dead. But I can understand it if the current Native Amrican population considers those mascots as a slap in the face. I am not going to try and discount their feelings because I wouldn't know how they feel.

[ucdtim17]

Yeah, but what about my "Fightin' Irish" analogy? I'm one pissed off Irishman right now, I'll tell you what!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


I may need the batteries in my sarcasm meter replaced, but you are the first person I've ever heard offended by the "Fightin' Irish." I think it is pretty generally accepted as a term of endearment, as opposed to "Redskins," or the like

[AZGrizFan]

I may need the batteries in my sarcasm meter replaced, but you are the first person I've ever heard offended by the "Fightin' Irish." I think it is pretty generally accepted as a term of endearment, as opposed to "Redskins," or the like

You, sir, need to read up on your history books about how the Irish were treated in this country in the late 1800's and early 1900's. It'd curl your hair.

I'm sure you're familiar with the line from Blazing Saddles:

"We'll take the chinks, and we'll take you nigg**s, but we DON'T WANT THE IRISH!!!"

[Hammerhead]

At one time in our country's history, it was not uncommon to see signs saying "Irish need not apply" due, in part, to the stereotype of drunken brawlers.

On a side note, the high shcool in Devils Lake (the white man's name for Spirit Lake) changed their mascot a few years ago.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/08/22/satans.no.more/index.html

Now that Satans is available, why not use that nickname? Can't be much worse than the Vandals.xlolx

[AggieFinn]

The only people who are ever dressed as authentic Sioux at UND athletic events are actual Sioux, and this is only occasionally.

Good. I've seen some Native mascot schools with bad taste, but sounds like UND has the right tone. :cool:

[RobsPics]

When the Irish get slaughtered by the thousands at the hands of the US Government, and there is an outcry from the Irish community (not just a handful of people trying to make a "point")...then it can be compared to the Native American mascot issue.

Right now, trying to compare the "Fighting Irish" to the issue of Native American mascots is just a dishonest way of trivializing the issue.

[AZGrizFan]

When the Irish get slaughtered by the thousands at the hands of the US Government, and there is an outcry from the Irish community (not just a handful of people trying to make a "point")...then it can be compared to the Native American mascot issue.

Right now, trying to compare the "Fighting Irish" to the issue of Native American mascots is just a dishonest way of trivializing the issue.

Isn't there a statute of limitations on guilt? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Aren't the Indian communities taking our (white man's) money by the truckload through the loophole called "Indian Casinos"? I'm more than a little pissed about that one.... :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2:







:D :p

[RobsPics]

Isn't there a statute of limitations on guilt? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Aren't the Indian communities taking our (white man's) money by the truckload through the loophole called "Indian Casinos"? I'm more than a little pissed about that one.... :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2:

:D :p


No one said you should feel guilty about Native Americans getting slaughtered. All I am asking for is respect for a tribe's history and feelings. Should there be a statute of limitations on respect?

If a tribe has no problem with a particular mascot, then everything is fine. Let it continue.

But if a certain tribe feels slapped in the face because of a particular mascot, then the issue shuold be addressed.

And why are you pissed about Reservation Casinos? No one is forcing "the white man" to enter any casino either.

[JALMOND]

Very interesting given the history of the Lakota Sioux Nation and the U.S. government. History books in the early 1900's chastised the Sioux, even stating as fact that the Sioux had ambushed Custer and his men at Little Big Horn (later proven untrue). That the Dakota nation (named in error, should have been Lakota) was never to be separated, yet it was. That the government gave the Black Hills to the tribe, only to take it away because of the discovery of gold. That, instead of correcting the name "Dakota" back to "Lakota", the history books recognized the French pronounciation of "Sioux". That the Sioux, in outright defiance of the U.S. government, tried to keep some semblence of their culture and way of life that led to the government firing on Sioux women and children at Wounded Knee, one of the worse Indian massacres on U.S. soil.

Based on all this, that some predominately white university would even try to keep the name "Sioux" seems rather petty.

[AggieFinn]

I'm a white male, I feel awful, I'm going to go get really drunk then shoot myself for all that has happened, no wait, I'll pick a fight with Chuck Norris instead, that's worse. :cool:

[LeftyZL]

Very interesting given the history of the Lakota Sioux Nation and the U.S. government. History books in the early 1900's chastised the Sioux, even stating as fact that the Sioux had ambushed Custer and his men at Little Big Horn (later proven untrue). That the Dakota nation (named in error, should have been Lakota) was never to be separated, yet it was. That the government gave the Black Hills to the tribe, only to take it away because of the discovery of gold. That, instead of correcting the name "Dakota" back to "Lakota", the history books recognized the French pronounciation of "Sioux". That the Sioux, in outright defiance of the U.S. government, tried to keep some semblence of their culture and way of life that led to the government firing on Sioux women and children at Wounded Knee, one of the worse Indian massacres on U.S. soil.

Based on all this, that some predominately white university would even try to keep the name "Sioux" seems rather petty.

First Time Poster Here-

What seems pretty petty in all this is that people who posted on this topic seem to have little or no knowledge of what the University of North Dakota does for Native Americans. Before you go off, do a little research on the topic, not just from the historical perspective leading up to the Wounded Knee Massacre of 1890. Now, I'm not saying that what UND does for Native Americans should make it exempt just on that, but it is worth while to know how much UND does for Native Americans compared to the rest of the universities in this country.

Here's a start for your research: UND Native American Programs (http://www.und.nodak.edu/dept/aiss/tier%203/indianrelatedprograms.htm)

Central Michigan Native American Programs (http://diversity.cmich.edu/nativ/)

SiouxSports.Com Forum (http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?showforum=2)

-The third link will give you endless information regarding the lawsuit announced today among other things. Feel free to look around.


If a tribe has no problem with a particular mascot, then everything is fine. Let it continue.

But if a certain tribe feels slapped in the face because of a particular mascot, then the issue shuold be addressed.

Answer Me These Questions: How is Florida State on the "excluded" list of hostile and abusive school, yet Seminole tribes have spoken out publicly about their dissatisfaction of the name? 1 tribe being ok with the name out of how many tribes makes it ok according to the NCAA? Your statement above fails just on the FSU argument alone. How is Illinois on this list, but San Diego State is not? Both school's nicknames are named after Native American tribes that are no longer in existence. Who does the NCAA ask whether they agree with each particular nickname or not? SDSU gets a bye according to the NCAA, yet Illinois is placed on the list?

What every UND student/alumni/faculty/administrator has said who doesn't have a problem with the Sioux name is this: The NCAA has not been consistent at all in applying their rules to all the schools fairly and evenly. That's all that the lawsuit from the State of ND to the NCAA is saying. Where is the consistency? The Answer....There is none.

[SIOUX>gophers]

This is my first post. I was reading through at what people are writing and had to join.

I am a sophmore at UND and so far what people have said about the tribal support of UND is true. I also want to add that UND has over 400 American Indain student (more then any other University in the country). Has the only American Indians into Medicine program in the U.S (which basicacly pays for American Inidian to go to Med school). Many of the doctors that serve the Sioux tribes were traind in this program. UND also has a $3 million American Indians center that was finish in the spring of 2006. And we DO NOT have a mascot that dances around the only people that i have ever scene at a game dressed as a Sioux have been Sioux Indians.

Here is the history behind our current logohttp://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/artist_logo.html

Noted artist Bennett Brien, an American Indian from Belcourt, N.D., created The University of North Dakota's current Fighting Sioux logo. Brien, who holds a Master of Fine Arts degree from UND, describes the symbolism of the UND athletic mark as follows:

- The feathers symbolize the outstanding rewards that students, faculty, staff and alumni will achieve for academic, athletic and lifelong excellence.
- The determined look in the eyes symbolizes fortitude and never giving up and the focus necessary for sustained academic, athletics and lifelong achievement.
- The paint on the cheekbone symbolizes that life can be a battle and we have daily struggles.
- The color green symbolizes the development of young people and their growth at the University of North Dakota.
- The color yellow symbolizes the sun which provides humanity light and warmth in order that life may continue.
- The color red symbolizes the lifeblood that has been poured out to make our state and peoples great.


Also by the way never take what an NDSU fan says about UND to be the complete truth.

[Ronbo]

How the NCAA can single out UND on this issue is mind boggling. It is OK for the FSU's of the world, but not UND, who by the way has more American Indian studies & opportunities than any university in the country.

UND has a lot to lose on this issue. It boils down to hockey and money (the post-season variety). I've also heard rumblings that their major benefactor, Ralph Englestad, had stipulations in his endowments regarding never changing the Fighting Sioux name. Maybe someone from ND can speak more authoritativley on that, as it is really conjecture on my part.

BTW their 11,000+ seat hockey arena is a palace, and a sight to behold (Ralph Engelstad Arena).

And they do that embarrassing indian tomahawk chant. xidiotx 's

[RobsPics]

Answer Me These Questions: How is Florida State on the "excluded" list of hostile and abusive school, yet Seminole tribes have spoken out publicly about their dissatisfaction of the name?


I'm not an NCAA Rep....ask them if you want an answer to this question.



1 tribe being ok with the name out of how many tribes makes it ok according to the NCAA? Your statement above fails just on the FSU argument alone. How is Illinois on this list, but San Diego State is not? Both school's nicknames are named after Native American tribes that are no longer in existence. Who does the NCAA ask whether they agree with each particular nickname or not? SDSU gets a bye according to the NCAA, yet Illinois is placed on the list?


Again...I'm not an NCAA rep, so you should ask them if you want an answer.



What every UND student/alumni/faculty/administrator has said who doesn't have a problem with the Sioux name is this: The NCAA has not been consistent at all in applying their rules to all the schools fairly and evenly. That's all that the lawsuit from the State of ND to the NCAA is saying. Where is the consistency? The Answer....There is none.


Even if we assume that the NCAA rules have not been applied consistently...so what? Is that illegal? The NCAA is not a government entity...they can apply the rules as they see fit. If a school doesn't like it, it can do one of three things:

1. Take their ball and go home.
2. Suck it up , continue to participate and follow the rules.
3. Lobby the NCAA to change the rules.

It's pretty simple I think.

[JALMOND]

I'm sure both UND and NDSU provide excellent resources for all Native Americans, Siouian and others. The history of Sioux (Lakota) defiance goes well beyond Wounded Knee, it did not stop at 1890. The cowardly killing of Crazy Horse, the forced obediance of Sitting Bull, the government involvement of the peaceful protests at Wounded Knee in 1973, and the commission to erect a statue of Crazy Horse in the Black Hills all show a continued misguided effort of the U.S. government to keep the Lakota Nation in check, right up to the present. Yet here we all are, arguing whether or not a predominatly white university, fully funded by the government, should give up the French label "Sioux" that has been used to describe the Lakota Nation. Sounds very petty to me.

[JohnStOnge]

$$$ messes everything up.:cool:

Try going through life without it.

[Purple Knight]

I'm just glad John Wayne didn't live long enough to witness this crap.

[AZGrizFan]

No one said you should feel guilty about Native Americans getting slaughtered. All I am asking for is respect for a tribe's history and feelings. Should there be a statute of limitations on respect?

If a tribe has no problem with a particular mascot, then everything is fine. Let it continue.

But if a certain tribe feels slapped in the face because of a particular mascot, then the issue shuold be addressed.

And why are you pissed about Reservation Casinos? No one is forcing "the white man" to enter any casino either.

Dude, calm down. I've been baiting you....note the similies..... :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

[star2city]

I'm sure both UND and NDSU provide excellent resources for all Native Americans, Siouian and others.
The facts are that UND provides much better resources and programs for Native Americans than NDSU, SDSU, or USD and American Indian enrollment verifies this. Obviously, NDSU or SDSU can not match UND's providing 20% of all American Indian doctors as they don't have med schools, but even programs like engineering and sciences have been formalized for American Indians at UND. It can be argued that the use of the Sioux name and the sensitivity of UND's leadership to its usage brought about theses programs beginning 35-40 years ago. If UND did not have the Sioux nickname, its service toward Native American people would likely be at the much lower level that NDSU or SDSU provide.


The history of Sioux (Lakota) defiance goes well beyond Wounded Knee, it did not stop at 1890. The cowardly killing of Crazy Horse, the forced obediance of Sitting Bull, the government involvement of the peaceful protests at Wounded Knee in 1973, and the commission to erect a statue of Crazy Horse in the Black Hills all show a continued misguided effort of the U.S. government to keep the Lakota Nation in check, right up to the present. Yet here we all are, arguing whether or not a predominatly white university, fully funded by the government, should give up the French label "Sioux" that has been used to describe the Lakota Nation. Sounds very petty to me.

BTW, how much is Portland State or UC Davis helping to serve and better the Native American populations? How much does the average "Aggie" or "Viking" know about the history and plight of American Indians in Oregon and California?

[star2city]

And they do that embarrassing indian tomahawk chant. xidiotx 's

That does not occur at UND. But remember, the NCAA policy has authorized FSU's mascot and behavior, including the tomahawk chop and chant.

[pcola]

Hearing date has been set for UND's lawsuit against NCAA.

http://www.uscho.com/news/id,12904/HearingDateSetForNorthDakotaSuitVsNCAA.html

[pcola]

Today is the initial hearing in the lawsuit of the State of North Dakota vs. the NCAA. The results of this lawsuit could have widespread implications beyond the original schools that were on the list. If an exectuve committee can dictate rules, such as schools that they deem have hostile and abusive nicknames, who do they go after next? If Indians are considered hostile and abusive are cowboys? What about religous names such as Crusaders? Could the Blue Devils be put on the list? The obvious one that the NCAA would never challenge is Notre Dame. Can you imagine of their was a pro-PETA person on the board.

Stories on today's hearing.
http://www.grandforksherald.com/articles/index.cfm?id=16246&section=News&freebie_check&CFID=5178573&CFTOKEN=14308855&jsessionid=88303fad35ec54100a3f

http://www.uscho.com/news/id,13026/NorthDakotaNCAAMeetInCourtThursday.html

And as always there is plenty of discussion regarding the Sioux name at http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php

[TexasTerror]

Good luck to UND on getting that preliminary injunction...

Don't see why you wouldn't get it. Give'em hell!

[pcola]

I neglected to include what today's hearing is to address.

From the GF Herald:

The first round in the legal battle between UND and the NCAA over the school's use of the “Fighting Sioux” nickname begins today.

Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem said his office will ask the district court in Grand Forks for a preliminary injunction against National Collegiate Athletic Association rules banning use of the nickname in playoffs and tournaments. He said his goal is to maintain the status quo while the larger nickname issue is decided.