Old Dominion to add football? [Archive]

henfan

June 14th, 2005, 09:00 AM

Maybe a new member to the CAA?

Unquestionably. The idea of football was sunk at ODU in the late '80's due, in large part, to a lack of a compatable conference affiliation. The CAA has already made a commitment to the conference's I-AAA schools. If any of them start football at the scholarship level, they will be automatically granted a spot in the CAA football league. ODU, George Mason and Georgia State are the likely candidates.

It'll be interesting to follow the football debate at GMU and GSU should ODU add football. It'll also be interesting to see what happens to the CAA's affiliate football members if the conference continues to expand with all-sport members.

saint0917

June 14th, 2005, 09:01 AM

Any clue on which sports ODU will add if they add football?

Always glad to see another school add the football to their lineup of sports!

No, I have no clue what other sports they will add.

I hope they add football too, for schools who don't already have football, I always like to see schools add football.

rokamortis

June 14th, 2005, 09:05 AM

It'll be interesting to follow the football debate at GMU and GSU should ODU add football. It'll also be interesting to see what happens to the CAA's affiliate football members if the conference continues to expand with all-sport members.

It will be interesting to see how everything shakes out. Do you think the A-10 schools will go back and play there? or will the CAA just grow to be a monster conference?

saint0917

June 14th, 2005, 09:21 AM

or will the CAA just grow to be a monster conference?

That's what I'm afraid of, The CAA will get to big, if ODU, GMU, and GSU, they'll be 15 teams, that's a little to much.

Lehigh Football Nation

June 14th, 2005, 09:59 AM

Unquestionably. The idea of football was sunk at ODU in the late '80's due, in large part, to a lack of a compatable conference affiliation. The CAA has already made a commitment to the conference's I-AAA schools. If any of them start football at the scholarship level, they will be automatically granted a spot in the CAA football league. ODU, George Mason and Georgia State are the likely candidates.

It'll be interesting to follow the football debate at GMU and GSU should ODU add football. It'll also be interesting to see what happens to the CAA's affiliate football members if the conference continues to expand with all-sport members.

I'm not so certain ODU joining the CAA in football is a done deal at all. When this was discussed months ago I seem to recall at one point ODU was considering starting football out as non-scholarship in an effort to control costs. Yes, playing in a somewhat regional CAA would save some costs, but they may wish to take some time to ease into having a 63 scholarship team. Furthermore, the financing I seem to remember was also up in the air.

If they do join the CAA, IMO it will probably happen in conjunction with a team leaving the conference for one reason or another. A 13-team CAA would probably require a Delaware to leave for I-A, Richmond to leave for the Patriot, or a "mass exodus" of the northern teams (UNH, URI, Maine, UMass). All of these possibilities don't seem likely to happen.

blukeys

June 14th, 2005, 10:09 AM

That's what I'm afraid of, The CAA will get to big, if ODU, GMU, and GSU, they'll be 15 teams, that's a little to much.

don't worry Saint they'll just split into 3 divisions, North, South, and........ Virginia! ;) ;)
Richmond
Bill and Mary
JMU
ODU
GMU
Could Hampton get into the mix?

Kill'em

June 14th, 2005, 10:30 AM

I've always wondered why Ga State doesn't field a football team. They are the second or third largest school in the state and one would think there would be enough alumni support for football.

henfan

June 14th, 2005, 10:43 AM

I'm not so certain ODU joining the CAA in football is a done deal at all. When this was discussed months ago I seem to recall at one point ODU was considering starting football out as non-scholarship in an effort to control costs.

You're very mistaken on thes points. Re-read the articles on ODU FB printed over the last several months.

As indicated by Ross Mugler, member of the ODU Board of Visitors, just yesterday in an opinion column in the Hampton Roads Daily Press:

Part of the reason football at Old Dominion University failed to come to fruition in the past was due to a lack of conference support. Today, that is not the case with the Colonial Athletic Association.

The CAA, which in the past several years has produced the top 1-AA
teams in the country, is now accepting A-10 schools into their football
line up... These new rivals, in addition to regional teams such as The
College of William & Mary and James Madison University, will mean a
schedule of exciting and popular games locally and regionally, as well as
regional and national press for our institution.

There is absolutely no talk of low equity FB at ODU. They are looking at either fully funding a 63 scholarship program or not fielding a team at all. Of course there will be a short transition period, like what the start-ups at CCU and SELU have gone through.

The following quote also came from the Hampton Roads Daily Press, Mary O'Brien, 5/5/05, concerning whether or not the CAA's I-AAA schools would be granted admission to the football league:

[CAA Commissioner Tom]Yeager said that any of the CAA's six non-football schools will be granted admission to the football league if they add the sport.

Presumably, the CAA worked out that issue with the affiliate schools prior to bringing the America East and A-10 schools into the CAA.

Pure speculation on my part here but I believe some understanding was reached that affiliate FB memberships will not be around for the life of the conference. The CAA may only be a temporary home for some of the FB affiliates.

henfan

June 14th, 2005, 10:50 AM

Kill'em said:
I've always wondered why Ga State doesn't field a football team.

Pay close attention to what happens at GA State and George Mason if ODU adds football.

http://www.gstatefootball.com/images/gsuf_01.jpg

http://recsports.gmu.edu/football/img/corner.gif

blukeys

June 14th, 2005, 10:54 AM

Lehigh Football Nation

June 14th, 2005, 11:19 AM

There is absolutely no talk of low equity FB at ODU. They are looking at either fully funding a 63 scholarship program or not fielding a team at all. Of course there will be a short transition period, like what the start-ups at CCU and SELU have gone through....

Pure speculation on my part here but I believe some understanding was reached that affiliate FB memberships will not be around for the life of the conference. The CAA may only be a temporary home for some of the FB affiliates.

This may be true, but the last time ODU wanted to field a program, they were thinking of making it low-scholarship to start. Making the A-10 change to the CAA to me seems more like only a change in perception. ODU seemed to me to still have the same finanical issues about building a stadium and fielding a team that it had 15 years ago. I don't see how removing the A-10 banner and unfurling a CAA banner all of a sudden changes that. To me, it's more likely that the "pro-football" ODU people have seen this as an excuse to push football at ODU.

I also wouldn't pooh-pooh the affiliate memberships. The A-10 has always been top-heavy and wanting to protect the good thing they have - witness the fact that all the affiliates were 100% OK with going to the CAA. I think it will be very difficult to convince other CAA members that it would be better to *kick out* Maine, UMass, URI or UNH and insert a completely unproven program such as ODU.

What the articles do prove is that a lot of people in high places are interested in football. But the arguments are really only marginally better now than they were last time, IMO.

Husky Alum

June 14th, 2005, 11:39 AM

Apparently Ga State has a club team, and I think they play George Mason. On the CAA Zone website, the Ga State fans have boasted how if/when they get 1-AA football they can play their games at the Georgia Dome and would draw a good crowed.

Funny, because they don't draw well for any sport.

If in 3-5 years ODU, GMU and Ga State add football, I could see Richmond and Villanova heading off to the Patriot, and URI finally giving up scholarship football as we know it. That frees up 3 spots without any teams having to leave the conference. It makes for funky divisions though..

North
-----
NU
Maine
UMass
UNH
Hofstra
????

South
------
UD
Bill and Mary
Towson
ODU
GMU
JMU
GSU

I don't think UD would want to play in the North, but what do I know. This speculaton is all fun for now.

saint0917

June 14th, 2005, 11:46 AM

don't worry Saint they'll just split into 3 divisions, North, South, and........ Virginia! ;) ;)
Richmond
Bill and Mary
JMU
ODU
GMU
Could Hampton get into the mix?

The New CAA

North

Umass
Maine
Rhode Island
Northeastern
New Hampshire

South

Delaware
Towson
Villanova
Hofstra
Georgia St.

Virgina

Richmond
William & Mary
George Mason
James Madison
Old Dominion

I like it. :nod:

GannonFan

June 14th, 2005, 11:46 AM

I'm not sure where this "top-heavy" view of the A10 comes from - there's actually 5-6 teams every year that are pretty competitive - that's a lot more balance than really any conference out there.

As for the affiliates, Richmond has already shown some reservation to continuing the way they are going and could always rethink a move to the Patriot in a few years. nova has made no secret that they are losing a bunch of money now where they are and as unlikely as it seems (they aren't automatically guaranteed admission into the Big East for football) they could always consider IA football in the future or conversely just dropping the whole program again. URI is probably the least stable of any A10 team - no following, bad facilities, bad history, etc. They would be my first guess as an affiliate to leave the A10/CAA, again possibly by dropping the sport. And UMass is kinda similar to nova in that they have higher aspirations but aren't well positioned (losing money as well) to make a move. That leaves only Maine and UNH as affiliates and they have made committments recently to football that show they are interested in keeping it alive. They don't have a lot of options anyway so they're best bet, especially competitively, is to stay with the CAA as affiliates. Right now only ODU, George Mason, and Georgia State would be in any position to have a football team in the next 5 years so I don't expect there to be any sudden changes to the makeup of the A10/CAA.

ChickenMan

June 14th, 2005, 11:54 AM

If in 3-5 years ODU, GMU and Ga State add football, I could see Richmond and Villanova heading off to the Patriot, and URI finally giving up scholarship football as we know it. That frees up 3 spots without any teams having to leave the conference. It makes for funky divisions though..

North
-----
NU
Maine
UMass
UNH
Hofstra
????

South
------
UD
Bill and Mary
Towson
ODU
GMU
JMU
GSU

I don't think UD would want to play in the North, but what do I know. This speculaton is all fun for now.

UD played pretty much in the 'North'... the old Yankee conference for a while ('86 to '93) before the Yankee expanded to include W&M...JMU and N'eastern. But I'm sure if they had their choice... UD would prefer being matched with the Virginia teams.

blukeys

June 14th, 2005, 12:04 PM

ODU seemed to me to still have the same finanical issues about building a stadium and fielding a team that it had 15 years ago. I don't see how removing the A-10 banner and unfurling a CAA banner all of a sudden changes that. To me, it's more likely that the "pro-football" ODU people have seen this as an excuse to push football at ODU.

I also wouldn't pooh-pooh the affiliate memberships. The A-10 has always been top-heavy and wanting to protect the good thing they have - witness the fact that all the affiliates were 100% OK with going to the CAA. I think it will be very difficult to convince other CAA members that it would be better to *kick out* Maine, UMass, URI or UNH and insert a completely unproven program such as ODU.

What the articles do prove is that a lot of people in high places are interested in football. But the arguments are really only marginally better now than they were last time, IMO.
The stadium issue is still there but it is a doable project. I'm sure there is some Va. state agency that could issue revenue bonds to get construction underway. A commitment from ODU would be necessary to guarantee the interest payments but this can be accomplished if the school is committed to getting it done.
I don't agree that the arguments are marginally better. ODU has grown immensely in the last 15 years and has doubled their alumni base. Their success in other sports has paid off in increased interest and applications to the school. The Norfolk, Hampton, Virginia beach area has grown rapidly in the last 15 years providing an additional fan base. The area is being recruited heavily and has great football talent. CAA membership offers instant local rivals that have already been built up due to competition in other sports .
ODU would have very reasonable travel arrangements for away games. By looking at the No/low scholarship option 15 years ago ODU basically took themselves out of these arrangements. ODU can afford the scollies and the equivalents on the women's side. This is the time for ODU to act. There will be no better time for them to get into the game.

There will be no kicking out of affiliates. You are right the A-10 has always been top heavy and has had to find some creative solutions for scheduling but they have found a way around it. Instead certain schools may find that their goals no longer fit within the CAA framework.

mainejeff

June 14th, 2005, 12:20 PM

I have serious doubts about ODU football, but if it ever does happen (or Georgia State and George Mason as well)......I see CAA football also adding Albany and Stony Brook as affiliates to form a possible 16 team league. At that point, the 2 groups could break off with sizeable memberships so that neither would be threatened with losing an auto bid:

CAA North:

Maine
UNH
Northeastern
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Hofstra

CAA South:

Villanova
Delaware
Towson
GMU/GSU
JMU
Richmond
W&M
ODU

Or their could be an exodus of affiliate members. Richmond and/or Villanova would be the best bets IMHO.

henfan

June 14th, 2005, 12:26 PM

This may be true, but the last time ODU wanted to field a program, they were thinking of making it low-scholarship to start. Making the A-10 change to the CAA to me seems more like only a change in perception.

You've got it all wrong. There have been considerable institutional changes at ODU in the last 15 years, as well as the circumstances in conference affiliation that change the situation entirely for ODU. I'd encourage you to read Ross Mugler's column.

In the late '80's, the A-10 didn't even exist. The YankCon administered a FB league at that time but had only one VA team as a member (Richmond.) JMU and W&M were still I-AA FB independents. I don't recall there being any mutal interest between ODU and the YankCon, as if it would have even made sense. At the time, ODU didn't even belong to the CAA. Fast forward 15 years and ODU now has an opportunity to join a FB league that includes a half dozen of its Olympic sport conference rivals.

It's hard to believe ODU, or any start-up, could jump right in to I-AA with 63 scholarships. Naturally, there's going to be a couple years of transition. I'd imagine they would begin as a I-AA independent playing low equity I-AAs, D-IIs and D-IIIs and would work their way into a full CAA schedule.

I think it will be very difficult to convince other CAA members that it would be better to *kick out* Maine, UMass, URI or UNH and insert a completely unproven program such as ODU.

It's highly unlikely that the CAA would have any interest in forceably removing an affiliate without cause. That's not what I was implying at all.

There may be circumstances that arise that encourage an affiliate or three to withdrawal in a few years. It's rumored (I've not been able to verify it though) that the CAA's affiliate agreements are very flexibile, requiring only one year notification for withdrawal in lieu of a comparatively minimal financial penalty. If a school finds full scholarship FB too costly, if they desired a more appropriate FB conference affiliation or if they wanted to reclassify, there's an easy out.

henfan

June 14th, 2005, 12:43 PM

I don't see Albany or Stony Brook ever being part of the CAA as affiliate members, even if they ever decided to begin playing full equity I-AA FB. There's absolutely no point in expanding with more affiliates for the sake of it.

If it the CAA FB expands at all it will be because one of its full members have added football (ODU, George Mason or GA State) or because the conference has added a full-member already with a I-AA FB program. They will not be hot to bring in more affiliates, especially if some of the existing affiliates leave.

bluehenbillk

June 14th, 2005, 12:53 PM

Stony who???? :) please....

The Gadfly

June 14th, 2005, 12:59 PM

If you need any other full members Coastal would jump right in :D . The CAA is starting to become an interesting topic on CoastalFans.com (http://www.coastalfans.com) since the SoCon meetings this Spring.

rokamortis

June 14th, 2005, 01:51 PM

It's hard to believe ODU, or any start-up, could jump right in to I-AA with 63 scholarships. Naturally, there's going to be a couple years of transition. I'd imagine they would begin as a I-AA independent playing low equity I-AAs, D-IIs and D-IIIs and would work their way into a full CAA schedule.

I don't know if this would work at ODU or not but this is what CCU did.
2001-2002
Hire coach and 3 asst coaches.
Start recruiting.
Practice with a skeleton crew.
Will join the Big South.
No games.
2002-2003
First class is all red shirts and walk ons. About 15 scholarships.
Recruit more.
2003-2004
Second class comes in. About 30 scholarships.
First Season of play - play light schedule
2004-2005
Third class comes in. About 45 scholarships.
Second Season of play - play light schedule - turn some heads
2005-2006
4th class comes in. About 60 scholarships.
Third Season of play - play tough schedule
???

blukeys

June 14th, 2005, 02:05 PM

Looks like a good plan Rock.

Go...gate

June 14th, 2005, 02:43 PM

This should be good news for those Fordham fans who want to see their school move up to the A-10 in all sports, because it now makes sense that they would be a fourteenth member of such a football conference.

This is my first post on this board and it is a great setup!!

henfan

June 14th, 2005, 03:39 PM

A poster on the ODU CAA message board is reporting that the Board of Visitors voted today for ODU to begin playing football in Fall 2009.

http://www.caazone.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=29828

89Hen

June 14th, 2005, 03:59 PM

I don't know what a 13th football program would do, but I don't think these ideas about 14, 16... will ever fly. IF ODU, GMU and GSU all started up football, I would have to believe that the CAA would cut all associate members and just go with the 9 full member teams. I can't see adding anyone who isn't already in the CAA now. With no conference championship games in I-AA, IMO 9 is the perfect number.

henfan

June 14th, 2005, 04:06 PM

IMO 9 is the perfect number.

IMO, that's the idea 89Hen- a 9 or 10 team conference, all of whom play sports in the CAA. Zero affiliates. Don't know if we'll ever get there but that may be a long-term goal.

bluehenbillk

June 14th, 2005, 04:12 PM

Well you have programs like URI, Maine or UMass that would be the first 3 kicked to the curb.

DemiGS

June 14th, 2005, 04:45 PM

How confusing would that be if Ga State added football. Two GSUs in the same state??? Anyways I can't imagine they would draw all that well. I grew up in Atlanta and if you've never been to Ga State it isn't in the same category as UD, UM, GSU, or most any other university playing I-AA football. The "campus" is a scattering of buildings in the jumble of downtown Atlanta and a large part of their student body are commuter students in the real sense of the word. There isn't much spirit, and a complete absence of college town feel. When I have visited there I get the feeling that the student body is composed of: A) kids that live at home in the metro area after for one reason or the other leaving one of the other schools in the state. B) Are people going back to school after having worked a while. C) are currently holding down a job and family while taking night classes. None of this amounts to fans in the stands and a feeling of college town pride. Contrast this with either UGA or the real GSU and you find that in these two cases not only does the school provide the college experience, but quite literally the towns these schools are in owe there existence to the school. Athens and Statesboro would each be a wide spot in the road today without there respective schools.
Just my two cents.

mainejeff

June 14th, 2005, 09:09 PM

Will the CAA offer monetary compensation to the affiliates if they are cut loose without their OK?

henfan

June 15th, 2005, 09:15 AM

Jeff, both sides would be expected to live up to the terms of their contractual agreement, whatever the terms are. I'm guessing the CAA affiliate deals are probably 2 or so year arrangements with an early withdrawal fee. UMaine's FB affiliation is probably secure until 9/2009 at a minimum.

Fordham

June 15th, 2005, 09:59 AM

Did CCU jump right into I-AA or start out at III or II and work their way up? What other schools have started football from scratch and jumped into an upper level like this (anyone? Bueller?)

This should be good news for those Fordham fans who want to see their school move up to the A-10 in all sports, because it now makes sense that they would be a fourteenth member of such a football conference.

1. Note that it's now the CAA, which means that it's not the same conference that we currently play all other sports in - the A-10. If, hypothetically, we joined this conference it would either be as an football-only affiliate or b/c we left the A10 and joined the CAA for all sports.

2. I agree with those posters on here who believe that CAA expansion will only come from either new programs from current full sport members (like this ODU discussion) or from adding new full sport members .... and not from adding more affiliate members. There are some FU fans who disagree with me (as "Go...gate noted). However, my preference is that remain in the PL, so maybe that's why I'm easily convinced that these are the only ways we would join.

3. Welcome to the board, Go...gate. Great to have another PL supporter here.

UAalum72

June 15th, 2005, 10:20 AM

What other schools have started football from scratch and jumped into an upper level like this (anyone? Bueller?)

Florida Atlantic and Florida International were probably the most recent, although they were on the way to I-A ASAP.

Kill'em

June 15th, 2005, 11:57 PM

Georgia Southern ( the real GSU ) played two years of club football before jumping to I-AA and everyone knows what happened in our second year of I-AA ball :)

Lapper

June 16th, 2005, 09:35 AM

Did CCU jump right into I-AA or start out at III or II and work their way up? What other schools have started football from scratch and jumped into an upper level like this (anyone? Bueller?)

Coastal Carolina jumped right in like South Florida, FIU, and FAU, who are all now at the I-A level. I remember watching the Citadel pound USF in the ground in their first season. Now they're in the big leagues and I bet ya the Citadel can still pound'em. Not a Citadel fan, just a I-AA fan. ;)