For Your Consideration: A New Patriot League Funding Model

[DFW HOYA]

There 's been a lot of talk this week that the Patriot League suddenly has fallen behind the times due to its need-based aid policy. A loss to Monmouth or Albany will do that, I guess, but there seems to be less and less fan consensus on the PL model as it stands for football.

For fans of other conferences that confuse the PL with "non-scholarship" football, the PL model essentially provides preferential need based aid in football where the Ivies do not. This allows PL schools to buy out the loan portion of a need package and convert it to a grant. Four to five PL schools offer the equivalent of 50+ schoalrships in this need-based formula. One or two schools (depending on who's counting) are in the 40-50 range, while Georgetown, is only financially able to budget about a third of that (a long story for another thread...)

Because the Patriot League was formed with such close ties to the Ivy League, many assume that PL schools are staunchly 100% need based (as the Ivies are) and frown on merit based aid. In fact, five of the PL schools offer some sort of merit based grants to students as a whole (all but Georgetown and Colgate).

So is need based aid a requirement of the PL? It was at the start, especially in the John Brooks/John Feinstein "Last Amateurs" viewpoint, but adding basketball schoalrships and accepting a school like American (which was not committed to need based aid) has clouded the waters.

The PL has always been more about academic excellence than whether financial aid is a loan or a grant. As its web site reads: "The Patriot League, which was founded on the principles of admitting athletes who are academically representative of their class...Participation in athletics at Patriot League institutions is viewed as an important component of a well-rounded education. "

To the question of funding, this proposal: let PL schools offer merit OR need based athletic aid, so long as the recruits maintain the academic index set by the conference.

If Lehigh wants to give a kid with a 1300 SAT a full ride, or a 1200 kid a half scholarship, half need award...fine, as long as that recruit still fits the academic profile and that student is still "academically representative" regardless of the aid. An academic index maintains this and allays fears that schools will be overrun with JC transfers and what used to be called Prop 48 cases.

Conversly, if a PL school only wants to give need based aid, let them do that too. Georgetown (and Colgate as well) each have an longstanding institutional commitment to need based aid that ought to be respected. In either case, as long as the academic side of the house is in place, schools could offer a variety of funding options that fit its mission (and its finances).

As to expansion, it's a given that the schools that fit the geography of the league and are considered most attractive to the league (Richmond, Villanova, VMI) are not going to drop scholarships to do so. This proposal might give them the flexibility to offer them a home in a compettive conference with similar-sized programs and allows them to maintain the academic and competitive standards each school now enjoys.

Comments and questions welcome.

[youwouldno]

No other good academic schools in I-AA have problems because they offer scholarships (i.e. W&M, UR, FU). Why would the PL? It's so stupid because the institutions will still have control over who they admit... I don't understand any rational "fears" with regard to academic consequences.

[*****]

... the PL model essentially provides preferential need based aid in football where the Ivies do not. This allows PL schools to buy out the loan portion of a need package and convert it to a grant... many assume that PL schools are staunchly 100% need based (as the Ivies are) and frown on merit based aid. In fact, five of the PL schools offer some sort of merit based grants to students as a whole (all but Georgetown and Colgate)...Nice post DFW!

[colgate13]

DFW - no arguements from me. You've basically laid it out. One minor point though - both G'Town and Colgate give scholarships in other sports, which I would consider 'merit' aid. Therefore no PL school is 'Ivy-pure' or D-III like. It's a charade to consider otherwise.

The problem is some misguided officials wish to rub elbows with who they consider elite, and in doing so completely miss the mark of the niche of PL schools and the potential that we have.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nice post DFW. I've never had a cut-and-dried opinion on need-based aid or scholarships, and your proposal is interesting. But couldn't it, in effect, cause an arms race where teams like Georgetown are even less likely to compete? If (say) Colgate and Lehigh offer scholarships to get up to 63, it's unlikely that Georgetown (and I think Fordham and Holy Cross too) will follow suit. That could be a recipe for folks leaving the PL.

[DetroitFlyer]

Now, please try to explain to me again the difference between the PL model and the PFL model. I see both conferences providing "need based aid" to players.... Neither conference provides "scholarships" in the traditional sense of the word. It would seem as though the top PFL teams, Dayton, Drake, San Diego would be very competitive with the PL teams and Duquesne has been very competitive. The "difference" I see is that the PL reports the amount of "need based aid" provided to players while the PFL does not appear to report the amount of need based aid granted to players. So.... The PL teams appear to spend millions of dollars a year on football, while the PFL teams appear to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on football.... What would the numbers look like if the PFL teams included the amount of "need based or academic" aid provided to football players in their numbers? It also seems to me that the PFL is banging heads most often with the Ivy and PL for players. We win some battles and lose some battles so we must be competitive in our aid packages.... I think that maybe the PL, however it is done, must ultimately provide more 100% free rides than the PFL...? The Ivy seems to provide more "free rides" as well? This seems to be a numbers game that could be made much more transparent by specifying a minimum number of actual scholarships....

[Dane96]

Now, please try to explain to me again the difference between the PL model and the PFL model. I see both conferences providing "need based aid" to players.... Neither conference provides "scholarships" in the traditional sense of the word. It would seem as though the top PFL teams, Dayton, Drake, San Diego would be very competitive with the PL teams and Duquesne has been very competitive. The "difference" I see is that the PL reports the amount of "need based aid" provided to players while the PFL does not appear to report the amount of need based aid granted to players. So.... The PL teams appear to spend millions of dollars a year on football, while the PFL teams appear to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on football.... What would the numbers look like if the PFL teams included the amount of "need based or academic" aid provided to football players in their numbers? It also seems to me that the PFL is banging heads most often with the Ivy and PL for players. We win some battles and lose some battles so we must be competitive in our aid packages.... I think that maybe the PL, however it is done, must ultimately provide more 100% free rides than the PFL...? The Ivy seems to provide more "free rides" as well? This seems to be a numbers game that could be made much more transparent by specifying a minimum number of actual scholarships....

According to the PFL, they PROVIDE NO ATHELTIC AID...not even need based aid. Of course we know that is a load of crap, but it is how they (maybe) appease the academics?!

[MplsBison]

Stanford gives 85 scholarships in football.

No schools in the PL or PFL (and some in the Ivy) are as good academically as Stanford.


So there is no arguement that works for not providing scholarships for football.


I'm sick of this "need based" crap.

0 scholarships is 0 scholarships.


There needs to be a minimum for I-AA.

[DetroitFlyer]

My daughter receives a "Presidents Scholarship" at Dayton based on her academic performance in high school and the stipulation that she maintains a 3.0 average while at Dayton.... I'm betting that there are football players at Dayton also receiving a "Presidents Scholarship". According to Dayton, depending on the source, approximately 90% of the students receive some form of aid to attend the school. The aid comes in all shapes, sizes, and manner and is avaialble to all students, including football players.... Now, my daughter's scholarship covers about 25% of the cost of attending Dayton. So, a football player, receiving a similar scholly, is still paying 75% of the bill. The bottom line is that Dayton does recruit football players and offers them aid packages to attend Dayton. The aid is not called a "football scholarship" because it is available to all students. In the PL model, I'm guessing the aid is not available to all students and is specifically offered to football players? If so, the PL "reports" the aid which "inflates" the football budget. In Dayton's model, the aid is not reported because it is the "same" aid available to all students. Also, the money paid by the football players to attend the school is not reported as revenue in either the PL or PFL model.... Very confusing topic.... Of course I am bothered by this because the old guard has attempted to ban the PFL, NEC and MAAC from the playoffs by requiring a miniumum number of schollys or a minimum amount of funding in order to accomodate the PL. I still struggle to see the real difference between the PL model and the PFL model, other than how the numbers are reported....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

DF, DFW explains it in his thread:


For fans of other conferences that confuse the PL with "non-scholarship" football, the PL model essentially provides preferential need based aid in football where the Ivies do not. This allows PL schools to buy out the loan portion of a need package and convert it to a grant. Four to five PL schools offer the equivalent of 50+ schoalrships in this need-based formula.

Basically, students qualify for "traditional" financial aid, which is then turned around and turned into a grant. This is also called "grants-in-aid" and has the same effect as being a scholarship.

This is NOT the same as Dayton offering a football player a partial scholarship that anyone can qualify for. It's also not the same as the Ivies' "need-blind" aid that recognizes "athletic ability" as a part of its criteria. All three are different animals, really.

[Dane96]

My daughter receives a "Presidents Scholarship" at Dayton based on her academic performance in high school and the stipulation that she maintains a 3.0 average while at Dayton.... I'm betting that there are football players at Dayton also receiving a "Presidents Scholarship". According to Dayton, depending on the source, approximately 90% of the students receive some form of aid to attend the school. The aid comes in all shapes, sizes, and manner and is avaialble to all students, including football players.... Now, my daughter's scholarship covers about 25% of the cost of attending Dayton. So, a football player, receiving a similar scholly, is still paying 75% of the bill. The bottom line is that Dayton does recruit football players and offers them aid packages to attend Dayton. The aid is not called a "football scholarship" because it is available to all students. In the PL model, I'm guessing the aid is not available to all students and is specifically offered to football players? If so, the PL "reports" the aid which "inflates" the football budget. In Dayton's model, the aid is not reported because it is the "same" aid available to all students. Also, the money paid by the football players to attend the school is not reported as revenue in either the PL or PFL model.... Very confusing topic.... Of course I am bothered by this because the old guard has attempted to ban the PFL, NEC and MAAC from the playoffs by requiring a miniumum number of schollys or a minimum amount of funding in order to accomodate the PL. I still struggle to see the real difference between the PL model and the PFL model, other than how the numbers are reported....

Ding, Ding, you hit it on the head. IT has been, always will be a guise. IN DIII we gave $$$ to "needy students" (E.O.P., need based, etc). Anyone who believes a coach cant say to a player, hey...I am sure you are going to get aid based on your parents financials...is living in a dream world. You think the DIII powerhouses got that way on luck alone?

I may be wrong, but I believe most PL's are not allowed to give "merit" (Presidential scholars) aid to football players (I think Gate13 explained that to me once).

Look...if a kid falls in the guidelines and plays football, he is getting some sort of aid...he just doesnt sign scholarship papers.

[LUHawker]

Neither conference provides "scholarships" in the traditional sense of the word. It would seem as though the top PFL teams, Dayton, Drake, San Diego would be very competitive with the PL teams and Duquesne has been very competitive.


Please, please, please DetroitFlyer, lay off the crack pipe. "Dayton, Drake and San Diego would be very competitve with the PL teams" Based on what? Just because the PL appears to be having one "down" year at this point in the season, doesn't mean that they would be very competitive. Last year there were PL 2 teams in the rankings all year and a third just outside. Same thing with the prior couple of years. Also, please don't cite USD as your torch-bearer.

Finally, the other main difference between the PL and PFL from a recruiting standpoint is the academic index qualifier. Your post would suggest that the PL and PFL are equals from a recruitment perspective and therefore it should follow that the conferences might be as well. Could a top level USD or Dayton defeat a lower level PL team, sure, on Any Given Saturday, but certainly not on most or even a few.

[Go...gate]

DFW's post is really informative - great job! xsmileyclapx

[MplsBison]

Just think if the Ivy schools gave 63 or 85 scholarships. Think about the matchups: Princeton Rutgers, Yale UConn, Harvard UMass, etc.

[Ruler 79]

Lets not look past the comment thet Stanford is better then ANY Ivy League school. C'mon, now thats crap. I work on Wall Street and the Harvard kid gets the job EVERYTIME!!!!!

PS I agree that 1AA should have scholarship minimums.

[DUPFLFan]

Look...if a kid falls in the guidelines and plays football, he is getting some sort of aid...he just doesnt sign scholarship papers.

Dane - I can't speak for other schools but at Drake, the Presidential Scholarship is for all students.

Here is an exerpt from Drake's web site (NOT the athletic site):

Presidential Scholarships
Presidential Scholarships range from $5,000 to $12,000 per year. All prospective students that have applied and been admitted by the priority deadline of March 1 are automatically considered for these awards. Recipients of these tuition scholarships are chosen on the basis of academic achievement.

http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/merit.asp

More notes from Drake Financial Aid:

In fall 2005, approximately 98% of first-year students recevied a scholarship or grant from Drake University. The average financial aid package including grants, scholarships, need-based loans, and need-based work study was $17,550.

Merit-based Scholarships (http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/merit.asp) - based on academics and achievement
National Alumni Scholarship (http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/nas.asp)
Other Scholarships and Awards (http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/other.asp)
Federal Assistance (http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/federal.asp) - grants and loans
State Assistance (http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/state.asp) - for Iowa residents only
Student Employment (http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/employment.asp)
Alternative Financing Options (http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/altoptions.asp) - additional resources including helpful links
Information for International Students (http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/international/finaid.asp)http://www.choose.drake.edu/admissions/finaid/types.asp

Dane - Academic Achievement as was explained to me by admissions is the student's test scores, class rank and GPA. The athletic department has no influence into the decision. I know that Drake, for example, has lost All-State caliber recruits whose parents wanted some "need based aid".

By the way - my son received the Presidential Scholarship based on his academic performance and nothing else. I still pay 75% of his expenses for College.

[Go...gate]

Just think if the Ivy schools gave 63 or 85 scholarships. Think about the matchups: Princeton Rutgers, Yale UConn, Harvard UMass, etc.

Not to mention Army-Yale, Harvard-Stanford, Cornell-Syracuse and others.

[colgate13]

Big difference between PFL and PL aid: there are dedicated admission slots and financial aid grant to meet need slots ONLY available to football players.

This is money just for them. And many PL schools are need blind for the general population, so they give plenty of $$$ there too. No need to 'hide' it for football players.

[Doc QB]

To the PFL fans who are confused regarding PL need based grants: IT IS A SCHOLARSHIP. Be it based on need, it is funded by the athletics departments, for football players, and if you quit, you lose it. They just have less to give, but if they found fifty some players who needed each dollar of tution, room and board, they would have fifty full scholarship players. They just typically dole it out in pieces, because they get people who need less, and lose some people who want (but don't need) more to full UNRESTRICTED scholarships. It is EXACTLY like scholarships at A-10 schools, which if you have seen one dangled in front of you on a recruiting trip by their staff, it ALSO officially is called a "grant-in-aid."

It is a hundred times different than a D III or non-scholarship program awards, which are often blind to the fact that a applicant is an athlete. It can not be more clear. In the PL it is a scholarship, athletically merit based and by what mom and pop make. You quit, you pay your own way. Period. An athlete at an Ivy or PFL league should never lose their financial aid for quiting football.

[Franks Tanks]

To the PFL fans who are confused regarding PL need based grants: IT IS A SCHOLARSHIP. Be it based on need, it is funded by the athletics departments, for football players, and if you quit, you lose it. They just have less to give, but if they found fifty some players who needed each dollar of tution, room and board, they would have fifty full scholarship players. They just typically dole it out in pieces, because they get people who need less, and lose some people who want (but don't need) more to full UNRESTRICTED scholarships. It is EXACTLY like scholarships at A-10 schools, which if you have seen one dangled in front of you on a recruiting trip by their staff, it ALSO officially is called a "grant-in-aid."

It is a hundred times different than a D III or non-scholarship program awards, which are often blind to the fact that a applicant is an athlete. It can not be more clear. In the PL it is a scholarship, athletically merit based and by what mom and pop make. You quit, you pay your own way. Period. An athlete at an Ivy or PFL league should never lose their financial aid for quiting football.

Thank You, said so perfectly. From now on when anyone questions the structure of our aid thet should just reference this post. That means you MplsBison, and yes the Ivy's would eb great with legitimate scholarships, but they made the decision to not to that in I believe 1953 when the Ivy league was frmed so I wouldnt hold my breath.

[colgate13]

You quit, you pay your own way. Period. An athlete at an Ivy or PFL league should never lose their financial aid for quiting football.
Well...

It's not that simple. You quit, you pick up a loan and job and, if the school has a policy of meeting all student's need - you get need-based grant for the rest out of a different pot.

Players who quit who need money aren't left dangling in the wind - at least at Colgate and I assume at most if not all PL schools.:twocents:

That said, yes, it's a scholarship with a horrible huge hurdle that limits a coaches options.

[MplsBison]

Lets not look past the comment thet Stanford is better then ANY Ivy League school. C'mon, now thats crap. I work on Wall Street and the Harvard kid gets the job EVERYTIME!!!!!


No schools in the PL or PFL (and some in the Ivy) are as good academically as Stanford.

Come on, man.

If you going to post that, at least make sure that you're correct.


Obviously schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. are as good or likely better than Stanford.


The main point is that Stanford is a top university in the US and they give 85 scholarships for football. And they have a great rivalry with Cal. Just like UCLA and USC do. Just like Yale and UConn could. etc.

[MplsBison]

regarding PL need based grants: IT IS A SCHOLARSHIP.

Then why do PL schools offer 0 scholarships for football?

[*****]

... The main point is that Stanford is a top university in the US and they give 85 scholarships for football. And they have a great rivalry with Cal...and they got beat by a school in transition to I-AA last year that had less than 40 scholarships... :eyebrow:

[Doc QB]

That you still get hung up on why they "don't offer scholarships," I tried to be clear. You must think a little harder when you read my post. Since they are restriced by parental contribution ability, they will NEVER be advetised the way A-10, National Letter of Intent grants are. To continue to be confused by this is getting a little tiresome.

SO THE PL SHOULD JUST JOIN THE DANCE AND GIVE IT ALL WITHOUT RESTRICTION.

Then could we all understand more easily?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

...yes the Ivy's would be great with legitimate scholarships,...

I just wanted to mention something about this: I don't think the Ivies would be better with traditional football scholarships because of two factors.

1) You're never going to have a "Dexter Manley" problem at the Ivies because they are serious about the academic index and their academic prestige - and the fact that they don't play in any postseason competitions. Furthermore, the Ivies trade on their academic reputation, and anything that could impinge on this "brand" could be devastating. Imagine if a Dexter Manley WERE to get on the Harvard football team. Everything about Harvard's admission and it's prestige as an instutition could be undermined, perhaps irreperably.

2) The biggest Ivy schools (H-Y-P in particular) are the richest schools in the world and already are quite capable of giving "full rides" to students who are good athletes. They just go through the traditional "Ivy process" to get aid - in which "athletic ability" is considered. Basically, if you are a B+ student and can throw the football 70 yards across your body, you will have a better chance of getting aid than an A- student that's not a legacy and is the captain of the debate team. (JMHO, of course.)

[Husky Alum]

Basically, if you are a B+ student and can throw the football 70 yards across your body, you will have a better chance of getting aid than an A- student that's not a legacy and is the captain of the debate team. (JMHO, of course.)

A couple of points - if people think D-III schools are "blind" to athletics they're smoking crack. My sister was accepted at half the NESCAC because she was a 3 sport athlete with 1200 on her SAT's. If she was just a normal student, Colby, Tufts, Bowdoin, Amherst, and Williams wouldn't have given her a sniff.

Secondly, Yale or Harvard's endowments are so silly they could fund anything they wanted to do and not even worry. Someone once told me that with the interest Yale earned on its endowment, no student there could conceivably have to pay to go to school there for YEARS before the corpus of the endowment was touched - I haven't done the math, but I think that's not an off the mark statement.

Third, Ivies give money to athletes they want to go there. Period. Call it a scholarship, call it a grant, call it what you want. They also give money to violinists, rowers, painters, dancers, and figure skaters - they just don't call them scholarships.

I was recruited by Harvard, Penn, Dartmouth and Columbia (And some I-A schools), to play football. I had specially coded applications from these schools and was in a whole "parallel admissions process" than my peers - until I tore up my knee after my senior season and before I was admitted to any school. Once I tore up my knee, 3 of the 4 schools asked for the applications back, and replaced them with general student applications.

It was the same application, it just didn't have certain stamps on it and didn't go to the general admissions office. Amazingly, the "free money" I had with the "Special" applications went away, and my chances of getting in dipped precipitously.

I hold no ill will towards those schools. I just laugh when people say the Ivies don't give scholarships. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and sh-ts like a duck, it's a duck.

[LBPop]

I was recruited by Harvard, Penn, Dartmouth and Columbia (And some I-A schools), to play football. I had specially coded applications from these schools and was in a whole "parallel admissions process" than my peers - until I tore up my knee after my senior season and before I was admitted to any school. Once I tore up my knee, 3 of the 4 schools asked for the applications back, and replaced them with general student applications.

It was the same application, it just didn't have certain stamps on it and didn't go to the general admissions office. Amazingly, the "free money" I had with the "Special" applications went away, and my chances of getting in dipped precipitously.

While I suspect you may be right, your example does not support your position with respect to financial aid. My son got those same specially marked applications and the Ivys make no secret of the fact that for ADMISSION those kids get preferential treatment. Three years ago the Yale coach estimated that less than 10% of the prior year's class would have gotten into Yale were they not football players.

As I said, I suspect you are right, but you cannot connect those dots. The admission decision is separate from the financial aid decision. I know that there is some discretion, but I would wager that a football player whose family earns big bucks, does not get the money.