RYAN BAKKEN: Face it, NDSU doesn’t need UND

[Gil Dobie]

Yes another thread on the rivalry, maybe the last one coming from the Grand Forks Herald. Ryan Bakken makes a good point.

Link (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/273703)


The harsh reality is that North Dakota State doesn’t need an in-state football dance partner. So, despite the recent pleas of celebrities, powerbrokers and rank-and-file North Dakotans alike, don’t expect UND to land on Bison football’s dance card any time soon.
By: Ryan Bakken (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/author/name/Ryan_Bakken/), Grand Forks Herald

It takes two to tango.
Or waltz.
Or grind.
However, the harsh reality is that North Dakota State doesn’t need an in-state football dance partner. So, despite the recent pleas of celebrities, powerbrokers and rank-and-file North Dakotans alike, don’t expect UND to land on Bison football’s dance card any time soon.
Last week in Grand Forks, former football coach and current ESPN analyst Lou Holtz called for legislative intervention to force the two universities to meet on the — please excuse the ensuing jargon; old habits die hard — gridiron. Earlier this month, Dave St. Peter, a UND alum and the president of the Minnesota Twins, made a similar pitch.
I have shared that opinion to force a game for a long time. But my mind recently has changed, because the times have changed.
Some background first:
When NDSU took the leap to NCAA Division I in 2004, it wanted UND to come along. But UND balked. And UND, as a Division II team, refused NDSU offers to continue the football rivalry because the Bison were able to offer more scholarships and thus have an advantage.
Then, when UND eventually followed NDSU’s upward move to D-I, NDSU athletics officials declined to add their neighbor to their schedule. The decision had the aroma of sour grapes, of payback for UND’s schedule shunning earlier.
However, now NDSU has a legitimate reason for keeping UND off its schedule: It has bigger fish to fry. After back-to-back Football Championship Subdivision national championships and a string of upsets of established Football Bowl Subdivision teams Minnesota (twice), Colorado State, Kansas and Kansas State, NDSU doesn’t need UND.
For those of you who are not convinced, answer this: If NDSU adds Division I hockey as a sport, should UND feel obligated to add the Bison to their schedule?
Of course not. Nor should NDSU be forced into a schedule not in its own interests.
However, like many state residents, I would enjoy seeing the state’s two major universities meet in football again after a 10-year absence. It’s great theater, on and off the field.
Besides, It would be an opportune time for NDSU to narrow the gap on UND’s 62-45-3 record in the football series.
With NDSU gone and the Minnesota Gophers in another hockey league, UND fans will go years between boo-worthy visitors.

[IBleedYellow]

This DID NOT need to be posted....The other 10000000th thread had all of these in it.

/sigh

Sorry all non-UN_ people...

[NoDak 4 Ever]

He's absolutely right. That does not mean I'm not disappointed by the situation. I think it's just a shame that things got this way.

[Darlinikki150]

Lol I posted it on the old thread, just the link however. Its the latest on a long line, but this one makes the point that most ppl have hard time understanding.

[dewey]

An article like that out of El Forko Grande? I wonder if he got fired for saying such outrageous things.

(NDSU cannot survive at the FCS level without UND. No rival, no sellouts and no big games for the fans to look forward to. Boy if NDSU doesn't play UND again they will never show up on ESPN again. Heck the UND-NDSU game is the only way NDSU will ever get a game televised)...HEAVY sarcasm!

I do find it funny that he mentions the overall series record in favor of UND but forgets that 10>1

Dewey

[deez_na]

Great points Mr. Bakken

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'll admit. I looked at SS to see what they thought of this. God damn, that makes goEMAW look like NPR.

[IBleedYellow]

I'll admit. I looked at SS to see what they thought of this. God damn, that makes goEMAW look like NPR.

I realized it's NEVER worth my time to go there. Their heads are so far up they hockey teams butt and hatred of NDSU is hilarious almost.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I realized it's NEVER worth my time to go there. Their heads are so far up they hockey teams butt and hatred of NDSU is hilarious almost.

I visit other boards to see how they interact. That is a trainwreck, if all the train cars were filled with dumpsters on fire.

[Twentysix]

I'll admit. I looked at SS to see what they thought of this. God damn, that makes goEMAW look like NPR.

goEMAW is intentionally outrageous, they are the rebel board.

ss.com is just dumb.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

goEMAW is intentionally outrageous, they are the rebel board.

ss.com is just dumb.

Yeah. I have an "R" word in mind. It's not rebel. xthumbsupx

[SDFS]

Yes another thread on the rivalry, maybe the last one coming from the Grand Forks Herald. Ryan Bakken makes a good point.

Link (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/273703)

For those of you who are not convinced, answer this: If NDSU adds Division I hockey as a sport, should UND feel obligated to add the Bison to their schedule?
Of course not. Nor should NDSU be forced into a schedule not in its own interests.

The game should only happen when both schools agree and it should not be decided by forcing one school to play. As for Bakken's money statement - If NDSU added Division I hockey as a sport, should UND feel obligated to add the Bison to their schedule? - it is stupid because NDSU would never try to get a game with UND. As NDSU's AD said last year his word not mine. We looked adding D-1 hockey and determined that we had no chance in completing with what's up north (to people outside of the North Dakota area.. up North or school to the North is in reference to UND.. in general most people in North Dakota depending on which camp you are in do not refer to other school by name only by directional references or/and criminal records).

[darell1976]

The game should only happen when both schools agree and it should not be decided by forcing one school to play. As for Bakken's money statement - If NDSU added Division I hockey as a sport, should UND feel obligated to add the Bison to their schedule? - it is stupid because NDSU would never try to get a game with UND. As NDSU's AD said last year his word not mine. We looked adding D-1 hockey and determined that we had no chance in completing with what's up north (to people outside of the North Dakota area.. up North or school to the North is in reference to UND.. in general most people in North Dakota depending on which camp you are in do not refer to other school by name only by directional references or/and criminal records).

Its also stupid because UND has had a football team in the same division as NDSU every year except (2004-2007) when did NDSU have DI hockey? Missed that one Ryan. This guy is a tool. NDSU doesn't need UND, of course they do, just as NDSU needs every other DI OOC team to play them. When NDSU had scheduling problems in 2011, they (Fargo media) looked at UND, same thing happened last year when MSU backed out, there was talk about what if UM bought out the UND game, and this and that. So saying NDSU doesn't need UND is stupid. The two need each other, there isn't many DI teams in this area, and now that DII teams count (a little) would NDSU or UND schedule a DII team instead of UND/NDSU? I hope not.

[Gil Dobie]

I like the fans on siouxsports that are saying UND to drop Football and concentrate on Hockey.

[Gil Dobie]

Its also stupid because UND has had a football team in the same division as NDSU every year except (2004-2007) when did NDSU have DI hockey? Missed that one Ryan. This guy is a tool. NDSU doesn't need UND, of course they do, just as NDSU needs every other DI OOC team to play them. When NDSU had scheduling problems in 2011, they (Fargo media) looked at UND, same thing happened last year when MSU backed out, there was talk about what if UM bought out the UND game, and this and that. So saying NDSU doesn't need UND is stupid. The two need each other, there isn't many DI teams in this area, and now that DII teams count (a little) would NDSU or UND schedule a DII team instead of UND/NDSU? I hope not.

NDU was a NCAA small college member since 1937. NDSU was NAIA prior to joining the NCAA small college division in 1956 as a dual member in NAIA until 1960.

[darell1976]

NDU was a NCAA small college member since 1937. NDSU was NAIA prior to joining the NCAA small college division in 1956 as a dual member in NAIA until 1960.

But was a member of the NCC from 1922-2003
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_State_Bison_football

Were they an NAIA Independent?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Its also stupid because UND has had a football team in the same division as NDSU every year except (2004-2007) when did NDSU have DI hockey? Missed that one Ryan. This guy is a tool. NDSU doesn't need UND, of course they do, just as NDSU needs every other DI OOC team to play them. When NDSU had scheduling problems in 2011, they (Fargo media) looked at UND, same thing happened last year when MSU backed out, there was talk about what if UM bought out the UND game, and this and that. So saying NDSU doesn't need UND is stupid. The two need each other, there isn't many DI teams in this area, and now that DII teams count (a little) would NDSU or UND schedule a DII team instead of UND/NDSU? I hope not.

I've never argued this on an institutional level as in one school needs another but following your analysis....NDSU needs UND as much as it needs Delaware State, PVAM, St Francis, Lafayette, Morgan State, Robert Morris, etc.

There are a LOT of teams out there willing to come for a paycheck.

[Gil Dobie]

But was a member of the NCC from 1922-2003
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_State_Bison_football

Were they an NAIA Independent?

From what I can find out, they were in the same conference but were aligned with different organizations. Who knows what the rules were back then. NDSU didn't win a conference title between 1935 and 1964. 1964 coming 4 years after dropping the NAIA affiliation. It would be nice if someone had the history behind this besides what is in the data warehouse.

[darell1976]

I've never argued this on an institutional level as in one school needs another but following your analysis....NDSU needs UND as much as it needs Delaware State, PVAM, St Francis, Lafayette, Morgan State, Robert Morris, etc.

There are a LOT of teams out there willing to come for a paycheck.

True, so just saying NDSU doesn't need UND is just a blind, stupid, statement. The two are DI teams separated by 70 miles, they play in all other sports except football. They were the most talked about rivalry in DII, so much NFL films did a piece on it (Football America). Yes they are in different conferences, but still should that be the only reason they don't play? My opinion has changed so many times, I would love to see it every year. But I see where GT comes from where you are limited to 3 OOC games (and since $$$$ means FBS its actually 2 games in most years). Fans would love to see new teams come to town, but should you close the door on your rival?

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Bakken has it right....finally!!xcoolx

[darell1976]

From what I can find out, they were in the same conference but were aligned with different organizations. Who knows what the rules were back then. NDSU didn't win a conference title between 1935 and 1964. 1964 coming 4 years after dropping the NAIA affiliation. It would be nice if someone had the history behind this besides what is in the data warehouse.

That seems really weird and wouldn't happen today (cough, Super 5 conference, cough).

[Bisonoline]

True, so just saying NDSU doesn't need UND is just a blind, stupid, statement. The two are DI teams separated by 70 miles, they play in all other sports except football. They were the most talked about rivalry in DII, so much NFL films did a piece on it (Football America). Yes they are in different conferences, but still should that be the only reason they don't play? My opinion has changed so many times, I would love to see it every year. But I see where GT comes from where you are limited to 3 OOC games (and since $$$$ means FBS its actually 2 games in most years). Fans would love to see new teams come to town, but should you close the door on your rival?

Besides all of the points you are making you still havent shown why NDSU NEEDS UND. Fact is we dont. I would love to see the game played but there is no NEED.

[aces1180]

I've never argued this on an institutional level as in one school needs another but following your analysis....NDSU needs UND as much as it needs Delaware State, PVAM, St Francis, Lafayette, Morgan State, Robert Morris, etc.

There are a LOT of teams out there willing to come for a paycheck.

Great points! NDSU needs UN_ like it needs Ferris State, Delaware St., etc. Put butts in the seats, make some $$ and get an easy win, with no return game. This, and only this, is how this game should happen.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Great points! NDSU needs UN_ like it needs Ferris State, Delaware St., etc. Put butts in the seats, make some $$ and get an easy win, with no return game. This, and only this, is how this game should happen.

I don't know but the UND posters are really bugging the **** out of me on this.

I think this game needs to be played for a thousand intangible reasons, nothing to do with money.

[MplsBison]

I've never argued this on an institutional level as in one school needs another but following your analysis....NDSU needs UND as much as it needs Delaware State, PVAM, St Francis, Lafayette, Morgan State, Robert Morris, etc.

There are a LOT of teams out there willing to come for a paycheck.

What you mean is, there are a lot of teams out there willing to come for a $250,000 (or more) paycheck.

What if GT goes to call up some teams for the next couple years and they all say "We're not coming for less than $350k. Sorry, that's just the fact Jack."


Is there no price that NDSU can't pay for home games?

[DJKyR0]

The only thing NDSU "needs" UND for is as a point of comparison between a top-tier, elite FCS football program and...whatever the opposite of that is. NDSU is filling the dome, playing at a high level, and attracting better recruits than ever, and that's without having played UND since 2003. Clearly NDSU does not need UND.

NDSU is drumming up plenty of interest in itself. We have established new rivalries. We are operating on a level above that of UND. You want that to change? Catch up. Until then, quit clamoring for what you see as "fair" when in reality what you want is a hand-out. I think it's patently ridiculous how UND fans seem to think that NDSU is operating on some kind of borrowed time where playing UND is an eventuality that is paved with NDSU's apparent iniquity. News flash, kids: NDSU is paving its own way, and that way does not have to include the school to the north.

Now, let's turn the argument around. Does UND need NDSU? No. They found their way into a separate conference and have done a passable job establishing themselves in it. There is a clear division between the two Dakota schools football programs right now, and it's not just because NDSU had a few years' head start. What UND needs is the injection of rabid following and polarization that a game against NDSU would bring. That would fill the Alerus (whenever that game is played in Forks) and get a bunch of folks fired up for what has so far been a very underwhelming program. NDSU, on the other hand, already has everything it would get from playing UND - again, the Dome is full, and the program is trending at a very high level.

Quit saying NDSU needs UND without backing it up. It is false, false, false.

[NDB]

True, so just saying NDSU doesn't need UND is just a blind, stupid, statement.


Good God, Darell. Do you know the definition of the word need?

[MplsBison]

The only thing NDSU "needs" UND for is as a point of comparison between a top-tier, elite FCS football program and...whatever the opposite of that is. NDSU is filling the dome, playing at a high level, and attracting better recruits than ever, and that's without having played UND since 2003. Clearly NDSU does not need UND.

NDSU is drumming up plenty of interest in itself. We have established new rivalries. We are operating on a level above that of UND. You want that to change? Catch up. Until then, quit clamoring for what you see as "fair" when in reality what you want is a hand-out. I think it's patently ridiculous how UND fans seem to think that NDSU is operating on some kind of borrowed time where playing UND is an eventuality that is paved with NDSU's apparent iniquity. News flash, kids: NDSU is paving its own way, and that way does not have to include the school to the north.

Now, let's turn the argument around. Does UND need NDSU? No. They found their way into a separate conference and have done a passable job establishing themselves in it. There is a clear division between the two Dakota schools football programs right now, and it's not just because NDSU had a few years' head start. What UND needs is the injection of rabid following and polarization that a game against NDSU would bring. That would fill the Alerus (whenever that game is played in Forks) and get a bunch of folks fired up for what has so far been a very underwhelming program. NDSU, on the other hand, already has everything it would get from playing UND - again, the Dome is full, and the program is trending at a very high level.

Quit saying NDSU needs UND without backing it up. It is false, false, false.

To your barrowed time comment - being fair, can you name any other state that has two, obvious, flagship public universities with football teams that don't play each other every year?

I'm drawing a blank right now other than North Dakota. South Dakota got their act together now. Probably the best you could do is Idaho, but calling Boise St a flagship public school is a huge stretch. They might have the most popular football team in the state, but that hardly makes the school a flagship.

[DJKyR0]

To your barrowed time comment - being fair, can you name any other state that has two, obvious, flagship public universities with football teams that don't play each other every year?

I'm drawing a blank right now other than North Dakota. South Dakota got their act together now. Probably the best you could do is Idaho, but calling Boise St a flagship public school is a huge stretch. They might have the most popular football team in the state, but that hardly makes the school a flagship.

For what it's worth, Texas A&M and Texas aren't currently playing each other. Besides, just because other schools are doing it, why should we? If it's not beneficial to us or brings something to the table we don't already have (keep in mind, this agreement would cost us one home game every other year, so it's not just a matter of picking this game over a non-con punching bag, there is a real cost associated with it), why simply do what other schools do?

[frozennorth]

True, so just saying NDSU doesn't need UND is just a blind, stupid, statement.
no, this is what a blind, stupid statement looks like.

[frozennorth]

To your barrowed time comment - being fair, can you name any other state that has two, obvious, flagship public universities with football teams that don't play each other every year?

I'm drawing a blank right now other than North Dakota. South Dakota got their act together now. Probably the best you could do is Idaho, but calling Boise St a flagship public school is a huge stretch. They might have the most popular football team in the state, but that hardly makes the school a flagship.

michigan michigan state
OU OSU
UW WSU
UCLA UC
UO OSU
KU KSU
Purdue UI
VT UV
ole miss MSU
alabama auburn
sdsu usd

see a common thread here?

[darell1976]

michigan michigan state
OU OSU
UW WSU
UCLA UC
UO OSU
KU KSU
Purdue UI
VT UV
ole miss MSU
alabama auburn
sdsu usd

see a common thread here?

Iowa Iowa St
Florida Florida St
Georgia Georgia Tech
UND NDSU

I see a common thread

[NoDak 4 Ever]

What you mean is, there are a lot of teams out there willing to come for a $250,000 (or more) paycheck.

What if GT goes to call up some teams for the next couple years and they all say "We're not coming for less than $350k. Sorry, that's just the fact Jack."


Is there no price that NDSU can't pay for home games?

Whatever the break even is on a home game I guess. Maybe a little bit more.

[MplsBison]

For what it's worth, Texas A&M and Texas aren't currently playing each other. Besides, just because other schools are doing it, why should we? If it's not beneficial to us or brings something to the table we don't already have (keep in mind, this agreement would cost us one home game every other year, so it's not just a matter of picking this game over a non-con punching bag, there is a real cost associated with it), why simply do what other schools do?

I hadn't realized that Texas and A&M decided not to play each other in non conference games. I think it's reasonable to say that they are the two, obvious flagships in that state, although you could have all sorts of arguments about that with fans of other public schools in the state.

I thought of perhaps another example: Penn St and Pitt. But again, not sure that falls as cleanly into the description as the schools in the states I had in mind:

Conference games:
Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Nevada, Montana, South Dakota, Kansas, Oklahoma, Michigan, Indiana, Mississippi, Alabama, North Carolina, Virginia

Non-conference games:
Utah, New Mexico, Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina


That said, the purpose of me bringing this point up was not to provide ammunition for the "play the game" side of the argument or set up a gotcha trap. Just thought it was worthwhile to the discussion to bring up the fact that in every state with two, obvious public flagships - their football teams play each other every year. Except in Idaho, Texas and Pennsylvania, which may or may not fit the parameters of the point. And North Dakota, which fits the parameters to a T.

[MplsBison]

Whatever the break even is on a home game I guess. Maybe a little bit more.

So you say that NDSU nets $500k on a sold out home game. Except they have to pay $300k on a guarantee for any non conference home game. That's a $400k total net on a home game in two consecutive seasons ($200k in year one, $200k in year two).

OR, they could do a home/home with UND and net $500k for the one home game in Fargo in year one, and net zero for the away game in Grand Forks in year two. That's $500k total net.


Playing the home/home gets NDSU more money in that case. But it does lose the "home game" atmosphere in year two. Here's a possible compromise/solution for that: have the Fargodome tailgating lots open during gameday at UND. People can tailgate, party, then watch the game in the tailgating lots and NDSU will provide buses up to Grand Forks for those people who have tickets. They could also put up a big screen for people to watch in the lot if they aren't going up to GF.

[NDSUstudent]

Its also stupid because UND has had a football team in the same division as NDSU every year except (2004-2007) when did NDSU have DI hockey? Missed that one Ryan. This guy is a tool. NDSU doesn't need UND, of course they do, just as NDSU needs every other DI OOC team to play them. When NDSU had scheduling problems in 2011, they (Fargo media) looked at UND, same thing happened last year when MSU backed out, there was talk about what if UM bought out the UND game, and this and that. So saying NDSU doesn't need UND is stupid. The two need each other, there isn't many DI teams in this area, and now that DII teams count (a little) would NDSU or UND schedule a DII team instead of UND/NDSU? I hope not.

Step away from the edge darell. lol wow.