NEC will moonwalk past the PL

[UNHknowledge]

NEC WILL be more competitive than the PL in the next 3 years if the PL does not grant full athletic scholarships. This is why (I'm going to use UNH references because that's what I know).

Yes the NEC's scholarships are limited right now but that makes a world of difference over having NO scholarships. UNH has a storied history of walk on success ranging from Sean McDonnell (All Conference player/ current UNH Head Coach), Brett Bashaw (former All Conference LB), George Peterson (All American DE), EJ Dewitt (All Conf. LB), to the great David Ball of Orange, VT. At least 3/4 of these guys if not all of them would've went to an Albany, CCSU, Monmouth if one of their coaches walked into their living room and said "Son, we want to offer you a FULL scholarship". Lots of these walk ons were recruited by PL's but didn't go because they are neither Ace's in the classroom or dirt poor to qualify for "needs based aide". 30 scholarships may not be a lot but it's 30 x's the amount the PL can offer. With the NEC's scholarships they will be able to steal a few A10 caliber recruits while also making it that much harder for the PL to find the perfect kid: D-I athlete, 1100+ SAT score, poor enough for "needs based aide", and hasn't been offered a scholarship to a better school. Good Luck PL hanging in there without scholarships.

[Pard4Life]

Yes the danger is there but I think it is a bit premature to sound the death knell of the PL. We need to get on board with scholarships though.

[dbackjon]

One year does not make a trend, but the NEC is heading in the right direction. And yes, I agree that the NEC will surpass the PL if the PL doesn't climb aboard the schollie train.

The PL stance is hypocritical, anyways - schollies are ok for basketball, but not football? Maybe the NEC emergence is the kick in the ass the PL presidents need to get knocked off their Ivory towers....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NEC WILL be more competitive than the PL in the next 3 years if the PL does not grant full athletic scholarships....With the NEC's scholarships they will be able to steal a few A10 caliber recruits while also making it that much harder for the PL to find the perfect kid: D-I athlete, 1100+ SAT score, poor enough for "needs based aide", and hasn't been offered a scholarship to a better school. Good Luck PL hanging in there without scholarships.

I'm loving the fact that folks can come out here and say statements like "In the next 3 years, the NEC will be better than the Patriot". What complete and utter baloney. You don't know that - nobody knows that.

Fact is, the NEC and Patriot are not competing for the same types of athletes most of the time. As a matter of fact, what you appear to be saying is that the A-10 is the league that needs to worry - you say that all of UNH's stars would have gladly gone to Albany, CCSU and Monmouth instead of UNH as long as they could dangle schollies in front of them :confused:

Did you ever stop to think that some players actually want to go to college to get the best possible education they can? Maybe up in UNH they need to dangle scholarships to get the players to live up in igloos all winter (and spring), but some players go to Patriot Schools to actually get jobs after graduation. Maybe UNH accepts players that "couldn't get a better scholly anywhere else" - maybe that's what you "know". But PL rosters have plenty of players who could get full rides somewhere else but actually want to, say, go to Georgetown to get a law degree or Lehigh to get an Engineering degree.

[Fordham]

The NEC's success could be the best thing that ever happened to PL football. Without them there is always a question of why schollies are needed when we have recently been consistently producing 2 playoff teams and getting some playoff victories here and there. Regardless of whether or not their success this year proves anything (I err on the side of thinking it does) or not ... it could be a help to those of us in the PL hoping that schollies are addressed sooner rather than later.

Their quick success certainly lights a fire under that discussion that otherwise may not be burning as brightly.

[Pard4Life]

One year does not make a trend, but the NEC is heading in the right direction. And yes, I agree that the NEC will surpass the PL if the PL doesn't climb aboard the schollie train.

The PL stance is hypocritical, anyways - schollies are ok for basketball, but not football? Maybe the NEC emergence is the kick in the ass the PL presidents need to get knocked off their Ivory towers....

Yeah I know, no real excuse to exclude football now.. that is a good thing...

[Dane96]

NM

[Pard4Life]

NM

:confused:

[Dane96]

:confused:

I decided to PM Lehigh Fan rather than start moving this thread in another direction.

[UNHknowledge]

I'm loving the fact that folks can come out here and say statements like "In the next 3 years, the NEC will be better than the Patriot". What complete and utter baloney. You don't know that - nobody knows that.

Fact is, the NEC and Patriot are not competing for the same types of athletes most of the time. As a matter of fact, what you appear to be saying is that the A-10 is the league that needs to worry - you say that all of UNH's stars would have gladly gone to Albany, CCSU and Monmouth instead of UNH as long as they could dangle schollies in front of them :confused:

Did you ever stop to think that some players actually want to go to college to get the best possible education they can? Maybe up in UNH they need to dangle scholarships to get the players to live up in igloos all winter (and spring), but some players go to Patriot Schools to actually get jobs after graduation. Maybe UNH accepts players that "couldn't get a better scholly anywhere else" - maybe that's what you "know". But PL rosters have plenty of players who could get full rides somewhere else but actually want to, say, go to Georgetown to get a law degree or Lehigh to get an Engineering degree.

I'm speaking first hand brother...I chose UNH over Colgate, Lehigh, and Bucknell. My parents made just enough money for me to have to pay a big chunk of change to go to Colgate. My brother went to Bucknell...although he has no regrets of his Bucknell decision he would've went to the place that offered him a schollie.

[UNHknowledge]

Lehigh Nation... you have a little bit TOO much PL pride. You act like a kid cannot get a law degree or engineering degree from an NEC institution. Yeah, a PL education is something to be proud of but I don't think someone with a law degree from Wagner is struggling for work.

[bluehenbillk]

There'll have to be an autobid question to settle. Do you give the NEC a bid & take one away from a league like the Patriot or MEAC?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There'll have to be an autobid question to settle. Do you give the NEC a bid & take one away from a league like the Patriot or MEAC?

:rolleyes:

Expand the playoffs

[youwouldno]

I'm loving the fact that folks can come out here and say statements like "In the next 3 years, the NEC will be better than the Patriot". What complete and utter baloney. You don't know that - nobody knows that.

Fact is, the NEC and Patriot are not competing for the same types of athletes most of the time. As a matter of fact, what you appear to be saying is that the A-10 is the league that needs to worry - you say that all of UNH's stars would have gladly gone to Albany, CCSU and Monmouth instead of UNH as long as a coach like Bob Ford could dangle schollies in front of them :confused:

Did you ever stop to think that some players actually want to go to college to get the best possible education they can? Maybe up in UNH they need to dangle scholarships to get the players to live up in igloos all winter (and spring), but some players go to Patriot Schools to actually get jobs after graduation. Maybe UNH accepts players that "couldn't get a better scholly anywhere else" - maybe that's what you "know". But PL rosters have plenty of players who could get full rides somewhere else but actually want to, say, go to Georgetown to get a law degree or Lehigh to get an Engineering degree.

Pretty hard to get a law degree as an undergrad, but I understand your point on academics. However, if the PL's goal is competitiveness in I-AA, academics alone are not enough. There's no need to attack other schools on that account. The NEC, by virtue of proximity, is likely to at least compete for some recruits.

Keep in mind though that there are other programs looking specifically for good students as well. The PL teams recruit a fair amount in the Southeast, but have trouble competing against schools like Furman, W&M, Richmond, Wofford, etc and increasingly Elon, because the SoCon teams offer regular scholarships and a strong conference.

The PL, to be successful, needs to offer actual schollies and see improvement outside the top tier programs. If anything, that will actually make it easier to attract good students who also want to play football.

[aceinthehole]

:rolleyes:

Expand the playoffs


xcoffeex FUNNY, NEC FANS HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ALL ALONG!!!!!!

Only when the possibility to lose the AQ does certain fans start supporting playoff expansion. Pretty fun if you ask me.

I have never supported taking a AQ from anyone, but the NEC needs to be included!!!!

[WMTribe90]

I agree with UNHKnowledge here. I pretty much had my choice of Ivy and PL schools, including Lehigh and Harvard, but chose WM because they offered a full athletic scholarship. Didn't see the need to make my middle-class parents pay half the tuition at Harvard vs a free education at WM. The NEC teams may not be the academic equivalent of the PL schools, but they're close enough to justify saving 10 to 15,000/yr in tuition.

[DFW HOYA]

Some clarification nbeeds to be in order. The NEC is not a monolithic conference, meaning there's a big gap betwen Monmouth and Albany versus Wagner and St. Francis. The top of the NEC is benefiting from scholarships, less so on the lower half.

Likewise, the Patriot is not one homogenuous league. You've got three teams spending over $3 million a year and one which struggles to afford a third of that. No one seemed to worry about out of conference losses when it was Georgetown and Bucknell, now, all of a sudden, Lehigh and Colgate loses and people are assuming the worst.

The PL problem is not easily defined as "scholarships or else." There is a growing financial disparity between the schools and this needs to be settled first for the entire conference to be competitive.

[Pard4Life]

xcoffeex FUNNY, NEC FANS HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ALL ALONG!!!!!!

Only when the possibility to lose the AQ does certain fans start supporting playoff expansion. Pretty fun if you ask me.

I have never supported taking a AQ from anyone, but the NEC needs to be included!!!!

Yeah, and some PL fans have agreed with you! Including myself and LFN! Didn't LFN do a pre-season piece promoting the playoff's expansion? And we thought the PL was a two bid league this year no less! We are not pulling a double-speak here.. ugh..

[colgate13]

Be careful what some of you wish for. If the PL gets its scholarship act together, look out. There is a market there that a conference as a whole has not touched. Individual schools like W&M or Furman reside there, but the weight of an entire conference that emphasizes academics AND athletics will occupy a nice spot. It's there for the PL's taking.

[Dane96]

Agreed, especially with kids from DC to Maine who want: a free ride; good academics; good athletics; "college campus feel" (compared to some large school); and a nice pipe line to a first job out of college.

PL schools with rides would be a force!

[dbackjon]

Be careful what some of you wish for. If the PL gets its scholarship act together, look out. There is a market there that a conference as a whole has not touched. Individual schools like W&M or Furman reside there, but the weight of an entire conference that emphasizes academics AND athletics will occupy a nice spot. It's there for the PL's taking.

But will the PL Presidents be smart enough to recognize that??

[DFW HOYA]

But will the PL Presidents be smart enough to recognize that??

It not enough to recognize it, you have to afford it, as well as measure the Title IX impact of converting need based aid to grants.

[youwouldno]

Be careful what some of you wish for. If the PL gets its scholarship act together, look out. There is a market there that a conference as a whole has not touched. Individual schools like W&M or Furman reside there, but the weight of an entire conference that emphasizes academics AND athletics will occupy a nice spot. It's there for the PL's taking.

Exactly. It might mean some more competition for players Furman recruits but I'm all for a beefed up PL. I think the biggest losers would probably be the Ivies.

[Go...gate]

NEC WILL be more competitive than the PL in the next 3 years if the PL does not grant full athletic scholarships. This is why (I'm going to use UNH references because that's what I know).

Yes the NEC's scholarships are limited right now but that makes a world of difference over having NO scholarships. UNH has a storied history of walk on success ranging from Sean McDonnell (All Conference player/ current UNH Head Coach), Brett Bashaw (former All Conference LB), George Peterson (All American DE), EJ Dewitt (All Conf. LB), to the great David Ball of Orange, VT. At least 3/4 of these guys if not all of them would've went to an Albany, CCSU, Monmouth if one of their coaches walked into their living room and said "Son, we want to offer you a FULL scholarship". Lots of these walk ons were recruited by PL's but didn't go because they are neither Ace's in the classroom or dirt poor to qualify for "needs based aide". 30 scholarships may not be a lot but it's 30 x's the amount the PL can offer. With the NEC's scholarships they will be able to steal a few A10 caliber recruits while also making it that much harder for the PL to find the perfect kid: D-I athlete, 1100+ SAT score, poor enough for "needs based aide", and hasn't been offered a scholarship to a better school. Good Luck PL hanging in there without scholarships.

Average incoming SAT's of FB players are actually closer to 1200 the last few years, so the pool is even smaller.

[WMTribe90]

Be careful what some of you wish for. If the PL gets its scholarship act together, look out. There is a market there that a conference as a whole has not touched. Individual schools like W&M or Furman reside there, but the weight of an entire conference that emphasizes academics AND athletics will occupy a nice spot. It's there for the PL's taking.

13,

I'm certainly hope the PL stays need-based. A PL with schollies would put a big tent in our PA and NJ pipelines. No doubt we would lose more players to the PL if thsi came to pass.

[LUHawker]

I agree with UNHKnowledge here. I pretty much had my choice of Ivy and PL schools, including Lehigh and Harvard, but chose WM because they offered a full athletic scholarship. Didn't see the need to make my middle-class parents pay half the tuition at Harvard vs a free education at WM. The NEC teams may not be the academic equivalent of the PL schools, but they're close enough to justify saving 10 to 15,000/yr in tuition.

I was always disappointed that W&M didn't join the PL (and its predecessor). I understand the reasons why, although if W&M and Richmond both went to the PL, that would be a fantastic conference with second-to-one (ie Ivy) academics and solid athletics. Maybe that will come to pass if and when fellow Virginia school, JMU, goes I-A.

[Go...gate]

xcoffeex FUNNY, NEC FANS HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ALL ALONG!!!!!!

Only when the possibility to lose the AQ does certain fans start supporting playoff expansion. Pretty fun if you ask me.

I have never supported taking a AQ from anyone, but the NEC needs to be included!!!!

IMO, this is the solution as well. Whatever the PL does, I don't think it will ever be a 65-scholarship football conference. But even with scholarships, it may have down years. Does it have to worry about its auto-bid every time its members lose a few games to other conferences in its region? It sounds like pro soccer in England or Italy.

[Granite]

It not enough to recognize it, you have to afford it, as well as measure the Title IX impact of converting need based aid to grants.

That's a very good point, Hoya - one that certainly has an impact on the overall decision-making calculus here.

[carney2]

Lots of great comments. Just a reminder that, in the end, this will not be an exclusively "football decision." The final say will come from the chief executives supported by their faculty. Wins, losses and OOC competitiveness will weigh heavily in the discussions, but academic and financial considerations will be at the top of the list. Also, there will be concerns about the accelerating athletic arms race that was started by Holy Cross about 10 years ago. How much is enough? Someone made the argument that if basketball has scholarships, then it's only fair that football should have them too. Is it also unfair that volleyball participants don't get a free ride? How about golf? Tennis? Cross country? At some PL schools you can look for a faculty response that maybe the tail is beginning to wag the dog here.

Not necessarily my opinions, but food for thought.

[colorless raider]

Be careful what some of you wish for. If the PL gets its scholarship act together, look out. There is a market there that a conference as a whole has not touched. Individual schools like W&M or Furman reside there, but the weight of an entire conference that emphasizes academics AND athletics will occupy a nice spot. It's there for the PL's taking.
Now is the time to strike. The Ivies dominated the PL last year and is off to a great start this year and the NEC is close behind. If the PL waits too long all momentum will be lost and we will lose our automatice bid!!!

[Fordham]

"The Athletic Ivies"

[blukeys]

It not enough to recognize it, you have to afford it, as well as measure the Title IX impact of converting need based aid to grants.


Just offering Scholarships should not affect Title IX scholarships. The PL and Ivies already have to comply with Title IX as measured thru "equivalencies".

I really don't think that offering scholarships will make a huge difference for the better PL teams. Those teams have already figured out how to recruit in the needs based environment and do so successfully.

Delaware went from a needs based grant in aids to scholarships in the mid 80's and was no more competitive then they had been in the 70's.

I think the schools that will improve the most are the PL teams that are less competitive using the current system of financing for athletes.

[Go...gate]

If the PL cannot find consensus for football, which would be unfortunate, you will see some awfully desirable candidates out there for new football affiliations.

[UNHFan99]

I agree with UNHKnowledge. Without offering scholarships the PL might not be surpassed but will certainly have a harder time recruiting. Especially because some of these schools look to prep school to get their players accepted. Some of these prep school recruits might pass on a prep school scholarship for an NEC scholarship.

My prep school coach was the legendary Bill Russo "Lafayette". Even though his loyalties were still with the PL he steered me away from looking at some non scholarship 1-AA's. We had many post grads that chose PL schools, but he expressed to me that recieving a scholarship was the way to go. He admitted that by recieving a scholarship then the school has already committed to you and you wouldnt be one of like 30 guys some of these grant aid institutions might have commit to them. I understand that if you are good enough to recieve a scholarship then you should be able to compete anyway. Its just that by getting a scholarship its helps your chances from the start.

Plus alot of being a recruit is about ego. All of your parents friends and high school fans waiting for you to commit somewhere for money. I think alot of players like the idea of saying that they are a full scholarship athlete. Although in the long run a PL education might be worth more, I feel recruits will not realize that at the time.

[Franks Tanks]

I agree with UNHKnowledge. Without offering scholarships the PL might not be surpassed but will certainly have a harder time recruiting. Especially because some of these schools look to prep school to get their players accepted. Some of these prep school recruits might pass on a prep school scholarship for an NEC scholarship.

My prep school coach was the legendary Bill Russo "Lafayette". Even though his loyalties were still with the PL he steered me away from looking at some non scholarship 1-AA's. We had many post grads that chose PL schools, but he expressed to me that recieving a scholarship was the way to go. He admitted that by recieving a scholarship then the school has already committed to you and you wouldnt be one of like 30 guys some of these grant aid institutions might have commit to them. I understand that if you are good enough to recieve a scholarship then you should be able to compete anyway. Its just that by getting a scholarship its helps your chances from the start.

Plus alot of being a recruit is about ego. All of your parents friends and high school fans waiting for you to commit somewhere for money. I think alot of players like the idea of saying that they are a full scholarship athlete. Although in the long run a PL education might be worth more, I feel recruits will not realize that at the time.

Nice the LEGENDARY Billy Russo is right, im sure you had fun running the 37 grace baby!

[UNHFan99]

LEGENDARY Billy Russo

I thought you would like that Franks Tanks

[LBPop]

I think I can add a little bit of a personal angle to the scholarship vs. non-scholarship discussion. LBKid was recruited by Ivies and PL schools. He matched up just fine with them academically and athletically. Thankfully, we were in a position to tell him that if he got into one of those schools, we would find a way to make it happen. We fell into that category where it is painful but possible for us to handle the cost. However if a similar quality school could have been able to dodge the "financial need" guidelines and simply say, "If you come here, we'll pay X", it would probably have been a done deal. We all know the "need" drill--if you have money, the cost is no big deal; if you don't, you get what you need. The families in the middle (like us) are the ones who would jump at an athletic scholarship if the academics were close to equal.

I remember reading one of Lembo's comments when he first took the job at Elon. He said he looked forward to being able to simply give the money to the families whose kids he wanted and not play the financial need game. I think we are one of the families to which he was referring. My kid visited one PL school...the rest Ivies. Do you want to know if scholarships would make a difference? The simple answer is that if the Patriot League had scholarships, that ratio would have probably been reversed.

[BEAR]

What scares me about this thread was the term
"moonwalk" was used.xlolx :eyebrow:

[Franks Tanks]

Honestly I do think the current trend in the league is a tad bit troubling, but I have confidence that it is just a down year. What really scares me is losing the reputation that we worked so hard to build the last few years. Many forget that the Patriot League was the red headed stepchild of 1-AA for years until Lehigh had a great run in the late 90's and early 2000's and gave us respectability. Then Colgate went all the way to the championship in 2003 and we recieved multiple playoff bids for the last several years to solidify the fact that we play some pretty darn good football. Not having scholarships makes things much dificult of course, and we will always lose recruits to the Ivy's or some of the very good academic scholarship school, but hey thats what were used too. I would like to see scholarships myself but it will of course be a while, but the Patriot League will be back, and I think we can stop talking about how the sky is falling.

[colgate13]

But will the PL Presidents be smart enough to recognize that??

Some already do! :nod:

It's the ones that don't that are the problem. :bang:

[colgate13]

Exactly. It might mean some more competition for players Furman recruits but I'm all for a beefed up PL. I think the biggest losers would probably be the Ivies.

The Ivies would lose those 2-3 players per team that standout. Say goodbye to Clifton Dawson at Harvard. Say hello to him at Georgetown.

The A-10 would take a little bite too, as would the rest of the I-AA conferences where we often can't get in the door. Explaining the need-based system just takes to long!xcoffeex

Bottom line, it would make things a whole lot easier, and would even out some of these ups and downs PL teams experience. Less diamonds in the rough to recruit and more proven blue chips.

[colgate13]

Lots of great comments. Just a reminder that, in the end, this will not be an exclusively "football decision." The final say will come from the chief executives supported by their faculty. Wins, losses and OOC competitiveness will weigh heavily in the discussions, but academic and financial considerations will be at the top of the list. Also, there will be concerns about the accelerating athletic arms race that was started by Holy Cross about 10 years ago. How much is enough? Someone made the argument that if basketball has scholarships, then it's only fair that football should have them too. Is it also unfair that volleyball participants don't get a free ride? How about golf? Tennis? Cross country? At some PL schools you can look for a faculty response that maybe the tail is beginning to wag the dog here.

Not necessarily my opinions, but food for thought.

Some schools more than others carney. At LC the faculty have a ridiculous amount of power that they, IMHO, shouldn't. Weiss should slap them around a bit and get them in line! The story is quite different at Colgate. The BOT and Pres. run the show. The loudmouth faculty member who thinks scholarships are the end of all that is holy are outcasts.

And at some PL schools, those other sports have always been at a lower tier than the top ones. There is nothing wrong with that. Give the money to the sports that matter to the school and be done with it. No apologies.

[UNHknowledge]

What scares me about this thread was the term
"moonwalk" was used.xlolx :eyebrow:

I'm happy you could appreciate that xlolx

[colgate13]

Just offering Scholarships should not affect Title IX scholarships. The PL and Ivies already have to comply with Title IX as measured thru "equivalencies".

DING DING DING!

You are correct sir! Just a change in name and philosophy.

[colgate13]

If the PL cannot find consensus for football, which would be unfortunate, you will see some awfully desirable candidates out there for new football affiliations.

That's a bit down the road, but I too see this as possible. There is only so long football hungry schools can be held back by those not interested... and I won't even bother to be coy anymore. Basically, Holy Cross can only hold up Colgate's plans for so long! ;)

If push comes to shove, and the PL majority doesn't budge, why should Colgate (or any other school interested) let the priorities of another school dictate our direction?

I don't think it will come to this, but it's the 'nuclear option'.

[colgate13]

What really scares me is losing the reputation that we worked so hard to build the last few years.

Agree 100%. What took about a decade to build could unravel in a year or two. : smh :

[LUHawker]

That's a bit down the road, but I too see this as possible. There is only so long football hungry schools can be held back by those not interested... and I won't even bother to be coy anymore. Basically, Holy Cross can only hold up Colgate's plans for so long! ;)

If push comes to shove, and the PL majority doesn't budge, why should Colgate (or any other school interested) let the priorities of another school dictate our direction?

I don't think it will come to this, but it's the 'nuclear option'.

If HC is holding back the PL, then the hell with them - let's jettison HC. They ran roughshod over the PL regarding basketball schollies and now sit squarely on the other side of the fence because it doesn't suit their finances. I'd like to have HC in the PL, but if the PL gives schollies and HC wants out, then so be it. Imagine the possibilities of which schools we may attract because of schollies: Richmond, Villanova, and I'd even throw in W&M if Richmond goes and JMU gives more consideration to moving to I-A. Adding Richmond and W&M would really make the PL a hell of a conference. I'd love Army and Navy in the PL for football, but that is getting carried away.

[LBPop]

Explaining the need-based system just takes to long!xcoffeex


Boy, are you on the money (bad pun intended)! I still talk to people who tell everyone that their son got a football scholarship to an Ivy League or Patriot League School. Sadly, somebody is at best plain wrong or at worst, lying. Either they got need based financial aid and did not want to admit it (which I would be only too pleased to do if I got some of that $$), or the school found a way to slip them some cash and dodge the rules. Of course, that is the rumor that constantly seems to circulate--"The Ivys will find a way to get the money to the players they want..."

It's all so silly and contrived. If I had a $5,000,000 house without a mortgage but no cash, I would qualify for aid. But by having a little forsight and saving some money, I don't "need" the aid. Well, now I have to go back to work. That second semester bill comes out in a couple of months. :bawling:

[Pard4Life]

Boy, are you on the money (bad pun intended)! I still talk to people who tell everyone that their son got a football scholarship to an Ivy League or Patriot League School. Sadly, somebody is at best plain wrong or at worst, lying. Either they got need based financial aid and did not want to admit it (which I would be only too pleased to do if I got some of that $$), or the school found a way to slip them some cash and dodge the rules. Of course, that is the rumor that constantly seems to circulate--"The Ivys will find a way to get the money to the players they want..."

It's all so silly and contrived. If I had a $5,000,000 house without a mortgage but no cash, I would qualify for aid. But by having a little forsight and saving some money, I don't "need" the aid. Well, now I have to go back to work. That second semester bill comes out in a couple of months. :bawling:

Crap like that infuriates me beyond belief and makes me want to drive around in doughnuts on a muddy Lafayette Quad and run over administrators... I knew plenty of money people getting considerable aid while financially responsible yet modest family P4L gets shafted.. and it has happened to a few others I know of... at least Weiss wants to make some aid changes..

We are rewarding the financially irresponsible and hurting the financially responsible.. what is this... Soviet Russia?! FAFSA is another great enemy of mine...

But back on topic... Ivies can essentially give full-tuition if need is demonstrated without having to a dime to the university... that's what an billion+ endowment does...

[Dane96]

And it is true...if an IVY wants a kid...they find a way to get him $$$.

As for the grant/scholarship hogwash. It is just that. Heck, Gate13 can correct me if I am wrong, but nearly 3/4 of students at the Gate get some aid.

In the end...the grant/scholarship thing is a ruse at most of these schools.

[DFW HOYA]

If HC is holding back the PL, then the hell with them - let's jettison HC. They ran roughshod over the PL regarding basketball schollies and now sit squarely on the other side of the fence because it doesn't suit their finances. I'd like to have HC in the PL, but if the PL gives schollies and HC wants out, then so be it.

Realistically, the PL won't dump HC. If they did, they'd be one school away from losing the autobid for good, and there really aren't any schools knocking on the door to join the league--if there were, American would not have been invited in the first place.

W&M is not leaving the CAA. Villanova is not going to join at least as long as Andy Talley is there. We all saw how Richmond reacted when William Cooper floated the PL proposal. And if Leh/Laf, Colgate, and Bucknell impose a plan that can't get support from the other PL schools, they'll be marooned as a de facto collection of football independents.

Is that what these schools want? I don't think so.

[colgate13]

If HC is holding back the PL, then the hell with them - let's jettison HC. They ran roughshod over the PL regarding basketball schollies and now sit squarely on the other side of the fence because it doesn't suit their finances. I'd like to have HC in the PL, but if the PL gives schollies and HC wants out, then so be it. Imagine the possibilities of which schools we may attract because of schollies: Richmond, Villanova, and I'd even throw in W&M if Richmond goes and JMU gives more consideration to moving to I-A. Adding Richmond and W&M would really make the PL a hell of a conference. I'd love Army and Navy in the PL for football, but that is getting carried away.

Start preaching that gospel brother! That is the positive view of things.

[colgate13]

Crap like that infuriates me beyond belief and makes me want to drive around in doughnuts on a muddy Lafayette Quad and run over administrators... I knew plenty of money people getting considerable aid while financially responsible yet modest family P4L gets shafted.. and it has happened to a few others I know of... at least Weiss wants to make some aid changes..

We are rewarding the financially irresponsible and hurting the financially responsible.. what is this... Soviet Russia?! FAFSA is another great enemy of mine...

But back on topic... Ivies can essentially give full-tuition if need is demonstrated without having to a dime to the university... that's what an billion+ endowment does...

The Profile is your enemy, not the FAFSA!

The examples cited are in reality few and far between. Does need-based aid reward spenders and penalize savers? A little, but not to the extent being admonished.

Bottom line: current income is the biggest driver of a parent contribution. Make $150K per year and only have one child in school? Likely little to no need for that family. The definition of middle-class is very different between schools and families.

[colgate13]

And it is true...if an IVY wants a kid...they find a way to get him $$$.

I often heard this but in experience Colgate was on par or better than what an Ivy would offer, and we are on the up and up.


As for the grant/scholarship hogwash. It is just that. Heck, Gate13 can correct me if I am wrong, but nearly 3/4 of students at the Gate get some aid.

It was about 46% last I checked. Colgate is an affluent schools by comparison to the general public.


In the end...the grant/scholarship thing is a ruse at most of these schools.

When it comes to I-AA football, I completely agree.

[colgate13]

Realistically, the PL won't dump HC. If they did, they'd be one school away from losing the autobid for good, and there really aren't any schools knocking on the door to join the league--if there were, American would not have been invited in the first place.

W&M is not leaving the CAA. Villanova is not going to join at least as long as Andy Talley is there. We all saw how Richmond reacted when William Cooper floated the PL proposal. And if Leh/Laf, Colgate, and Bucknell impose a plan that can't get support from the other PL schools, they'll be marooned as a de facto collection of football independents.

Is that what these schools want? I don't think so.
Well put DFW - this is the counter that prevents say, Colgate from forcing a hand (yet). Because of our league size, we can't be so forceful. Ultimately, if HC says no (and IMO then ends the program) the PL will need to have new players lined up to keep the league status quo. It's only after scholarships are established that we can dream of attracting the usual suspects of ideal candidates. A bit of a catch 22 - and a reason why I said elsewhere that perhaps Stony Brook and/or Albany would be part time fixes for the league. I could see a mutually beneficial situation that allows SB and UA to ramp up schollies, play a fixed schedule and wait for the right America East/whatever option to open up while the other schools we are interested in have time to decide to get on board. Heck, I guess Monmouth should be added too. 10 team league (9 if HC bailed). Not too bad...

Basically, HC is stalling and some other schools are allowing it. But bottom line: the issue will not die. There will be some action in the next 2-3 years.:read:

[Go...gate]

Some schools more than others carney. At LC the faculty have a ridiculous amount of power that they, IMHO, shouldn't. Weiss should slap them around a bit and get them in line! The story is quite different at Colgate. The BOT and Pres. run the show. The loudmouth faculty member who thinks scholarships are the end of all that is holy are outcasts.
And at some PL schools, those other sports have always been at a lower tier than the top ones. There is nothing wrong with that. Give the money to the sports that matter to the school and be done with it. No apologies.

It took a long time to get this way, however. Prexies like Bartlett, Langdon, Grabois and "Buddy" were staunchly opposed to athletics generally, as were many faculty members. For every Jonathan Kistler and Harry Behler, there was a Neill Joy, Pat Dutcher, Wanda Berry et. al who hated athletics and contempt for the student-athlete in general.

[colgate13]

It took a long time to get this way, however. Prexies like Bartlett, Langdon, Grabois and "Buddy" were staunchly opposed to athletics generally, as were many faculty members. For every Jonathan Kistler and Harry Behler, there was a Neill Joy, Pat Dutcher, Wanda Berry et. al who hated athletics and contempt for the student-athlete in general.

AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP IT, STOP SAYING HER NAME!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:pumpuke:

Seriously though, that anti-establishment crowd that hates athletics is losing or has already lost the majority position of faculties and newer faculty are much more amenable to the 'dreaded' scholarship... or even Division I athletics.

I think the BOT affirming, on more than one occasion, that Colgate is a Division I school and D III will never be an option finally shut most of them up and gave Chopp the power to move us forward.

[Doc QB]

Sorry to step back...but where does the notion that Holy Cross is stalling a move towards scholarship football? I don't remember the reference or how that information was generated. If they are the problem, I can't see why...they dominated the PL until their schollie athletes graduated and were something like 66-5 under Duffner (losing to Army twice, the rest I forget). Why would they not want to go back to that dominance?

From yet (another) personal perspective. I took official visits to Richmond, W&M, JMU, Lehigh, Holy Cross. Richmond was terrible at the time (early 90's), W&M didn't offer a QB that year, JMU had brand new coach (Rip Scherer). It came down to HC and Lehigh. My pop played at LU. I wanted to go to HC and play for Duffner. My middle class roots prevented ANY money from HC, but had mom working at LU (which made it free. I turned down Richmond and JMU to go to LU (did not want to walk-on at W&M, and turned down rides to URI, UMass). I wanted to be apart of that dominant Holy Cross program, but cash DOES change all of that, no question. But, in my case, LU over A-10 teams (Yankee at the time). Maybe I am the odd ball.

And for the record, prior to Kevin Higgins at Lehigh (after I left), the Ivies started to whip us, and all the talk was of the death of the PL. That changed, obviously. Most of this is all very cyclical. Talk of losing the bid is premature.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And for the record, prior to Kevin Higgins at Lehigh (after I left), the Ivies started to whip us, and all the talk was of the death of the PL. That changed, obviously. Most of this is all very cyclical. Talk of losing the bid is premature.

Couldn't agree more.

[carney2]

Sorry to step back...but where does the notion that Holy Cross is stalling a move towards scholarship football? I don't remember the reference or how that information was generated. If they are the problem, I can't see why...they dominated the PL until their schollie athletes graduated and were something like 66-5 under Duffner (losing to Army twice, the rest I forget). Why would they not want to go back to that dominance?

To say that Holy Cross is "stalling" a move toward scholarship football is, I believe, inaccurate. It would be more accurate at this time to say that they are not part of any movement that may now exist, or may come into being in the foreseeable future. Some 10 years ago or so, Holy Cross started the athletic arms race in the Patriot League with their "give us basketball scholarships or we are taking our ball and playing elsewhere" edict. As I recall, some of the PL members were willing to say "goodbye" until Army chimed in with "They go; we go." Apparently, the Pointers were convinced that the loss of even one member at that time made the league nonviable.

Now Holy Cross considers itself a basketball school, not unlike some of their Roman Catholic brethren (Providence, Seton Hall, and, yes, Georgetown). They apparently feel that their situation (financial? academic?) cannot handle a return to the days of Gordie Lochbaum and the significant commitments required by scholarship Division I football. They are not stalling; they are not roadblocking; they are merely beginning to define a position much different from some other Patriot League schools. Their marketing and internal studies have told them that a commitment to basketball is the way for them to go. I believe, at this time, that all other athletic endeavors are secondary.

Where does that leave the Patriot League? In a position where a decision is not necessarily imminent, but is ultimately necessary. The league needs new blood (names have been mentioned here), and it does not appear that can happen without some give on football scholarships. Three things seem obvious:

1. Most of the schools mentioned as "immediately" available for potential membership (Albany, Monmouth, Marist, etc.) are either state schools or are otherwise not a legitimate match with most of the current members. Any move in this direction would be a temporary fix, at best.

2. The better "fits" for the league (Villanova, Richmond, W&M, etc.) have no leanings in that direction at the moment, and there would be no point in even "rumoring" with any of them without scholarships.

2. Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette and Lehigh are joined at the hip. None of them are ever in their wildest dreams going to find a better match than with each other. A lone ranger move by any of them would, in the long run, prove suicidal - and detrimental to the others. It is in the best interest of each and every one of them to hold this thing together by whatever means necessary. If that means football scholarships, so be it. If that means that a current member has to be jetisoned, so be it. If that means that new members must be solicited, so be it.

[LBPop]

Has anybody else noticed that this thread has really awakened our Colgate 13 colleague? Borrowing from Will Farrell, "We had a fever and what we needed was more 13!" Nice to see that Avatar in plentiful supply. :thumbsup:

[Go...gate]

Damn good to see 13 again. The Patriot League gang is all here.

[colgate13]

Yea - and instead of killing my work productivity you're keeping me up late at night!

As for HC stalling, what I learned a while ago was that when the subject was brought up by Colgate, HC gave a fat NO, and Lafayette gave a "not this year, but soon. let's get these first scholarships through first". That was the opposition. Lafayette is a yes in a few years, so it's HC. And for HC (and interestingly enough not the rest of the league) it's claims about Title IX and a misguided respect for Brooks (right? I mix up the priests).

So yes, this is mostly a Holy Cross deal right now.

[carney2]

Yea - and instead of killing my work productivity you're keeping me up late at night!

As for HC stalling, what I learned a while ago was that when the subject was brought up by Colgate, HC gave a fat NO, and Lafayette gave a "not this year, but soon. let's get these first scholarships through first". That was the opposition. Lafayette is a yes in a few years, so it's HC. And for HC (and interestingly enough not the rest of the league) it's claims about Title IX and a misguided respect for Brooks (right? I mix up the priests).

So yes, this is mostly a Holy Cross deal right now.

This raises the question "Does a single school have veto power?" If yes, then there is trouble ahead. If no, then there had better be some viable replacements in the wings to replace defectors.

Also, what happens if one school says that they are going ahead with scholarships regardless, but has no intention of leaving the league? This would be something of a spin on Holy Cross's position on basketball, but they did, of course, say "scholarships or we are gone."

As for our old friend, 13, it's the scholarship issue that dragged him out of his hole. This is to him as an "all you can eat buffet" would be to me.

[Go...gate]

If that is true, than, with regret, I wish Holy Cross much success in the MAAC for all sports. It is their turn to get with the program or go.

[carney2]

If that is true, than, with regret, I wish Holy Cross much success in the MAAC for all sports. It is their turn to get with the program or go.

We tend to not "walk a mile in their shoes," so if we look at it from the Holy Cross standpoint, they have some problems with this too. If we accept the view that they are, at best, only mildly competitive with other PL schools in most sports other than basketball, ya gotta ask where they can find a home for their "no emphasis" athletics, but still maintain some visibility for their pride and joy basketball programs. It's Bob Cousy to Gordie Lochbaum to chaos.

[Go...gate]

We tend to not "walk a mile in their shoes," so if we look at it from the Holy Cross standpoint, they have some problems with this too. If we accept the view that they are, at best, only mildly competitive with other PL schools in most sports other than basketball, ya gotta ask where they can find a home for their "no emphasis" athletics, but still maintain some visibility for their pride and joy basketball programs. It's Bob Cousy to Gordie Lochbaum to chaos.

The MAAC has a very strong BB profile (much stronger than the PL top to bottom), and HC was there for many years.

What galls me is that they refused to give up FB scholarships in the early years of the league and kept them until '92, then they held a gun to the rest of the conference members in the mid '90's regarding BB scholarships. Later, when they had a chance to join the ECAC Hockey League, which would have added a lot of standing to their program, they would only join if they did not have to upgrade their women's hockey program, which was different than the rest of the ECACHL. Now they want to hold the rest of us up on FB scholarships, which will hurt the long-term viability of the Patriot League.

[LUHawker]

Does anyone know with any certainty, where Lehigh stands on the scholarship issue? I've got to believe LU is firmly in the yes camp if it comes up, but I just haven't had any inside info.

[dbackjon]

The MAAC has a very strong BB profile (much stronger than the PL top to bottom), and HC was there for many years.

What galls me is that they refused to give up FB scholarships in the early years of the league and kept them until '92, then they held a gun to the rest of the conference members in the mid '90's regarding BB scholarships. Later, when they had a chance to join the ECAC Hockey League, which would have added a lot of standing to their program, they would only join if they did not have to upgrade their women's hockey program, which was different than the rest of the ECACHL. Now they want to hold the rest of us up on FB scholarships, which will hurt the long-term viability of the Patriot League.

Sounds like Holy Cross doesn't work and play well with others, and takes too many lessons from Notre Dame on trying to run everything.

Also sounds like the PL would be better off without the headache.

[jimbo65]

I have no first hand knowledge regarding how the PL Fball members would vote re. schollies. My guess is that all but H Cross & Gtown would vote Yes. Actually, I have read, I believe on my Fordham Board, that Fordham & Gtown do not get a vote. Makes sense since they are affiliate members. HC & Gtown are Jesuit institutions but IMO, they do not consider Fordham, or the other Jesuit schools "in their class". For example, all other Jesuit schools have a reciprocal agreement wherein dependents of full time workers get free tuition at any school they can gain admittance to. HC & Gtown, do not, or did not, participate.

When Fordham was seeking admittance to the PL (a disaster for us for everything but fball) I was told that our aliies were LaFayette & Army not HC. Fordham just dropped HC from the basketball schedule. The last time Gtown played FU in bball was I believe Thompson's first or second year. There is little athletic love lost among the three Jesuit PL members.

I hope the PL goes to scholly and if we can vote that we vote in the affirmative. We are getting beat by the NEC for goodness sake.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross also cannot raise economic weakness as an issue. They already have the facilities and an endowment of over $400 million.

The whole thing is regrettable, as Colgate and Holy Cross go back nearly a century in athletics.

[Doc QB]

When I was at Lehigh, the PL rule was up to 13 "slots" or equivalencies, broken up as they wish, per year. Simple math demonstrates 13x4=52 full tickets to athletes. Now, instead of being so darn self righteous and or self promoting, what does it really take, beyond a simple change in athletic policy football aid to say, "Okay. Screw need-based aid. We are going after 52 full ticket players. Sure its not the maximum 63 allowable, but it is WHAT WE CAN SPEND ANYWAY by league bylaws."

Now, clearly not all schools spend up to 13 a year or the total which may be 52. Neither do all of the A-10 schools (i.e. Rhody and Richmond). %@ kids is pretty decent two deep, and you will still have kids who pay thier way, or you can give half rides (which W&M does all the time). The money is already spent this way, isn't it? Change the semantics and really put the PL as a trend setter/standard setter.

If you allow it, the need based crap is gone, you have one hell of a marketing ticket that the old originators of the Colonial league missed out on when they tried to become IVY lite...you have rigorous academic standards across the league, and you give the kids the whole boat. That IS unique--need based is not.

Does anyone agree? Isn't it really this simple?

[youwouldno]

Yeah, it is that simple. Anytime academics are used to justify not offering scholarships, there is lying involved. Scholarships actually make it easier to attract quality students who have numerous college options.

[carney2]

Does anyone know with any certainty, where Lehigh stands on the scholarship issue? I've got to believe LU is firmly in the yes camp if it comes up, but I just haven't had any inside info.

I don't want to steal his thunder, but Mr. 13 posted on this exact issue a few months ago and, at the time thought:

Colgate: Yes, dammit!
Lafayette: The closest to Colgate, but don't rush 'em.
Lehigh: A little iffy, but let's see where the new Prez settles in here.
Fordham: Iffy, like Lehigh, but since they are football only members, it is a little uncertain how much serious thought they are giving it.
Bucknell: More scholarships, please! Oh, you're talking about football aren't you?
Georgetown: Which way is the wind blowing today?
Holy Cross: No.

Since this is his defining issue, let's hope that 13 burns his midnight oil tonight and gives us an update. In any event, the only "certains" appear to be Colgate and Holy Cross at the moment.

[carney2]

When I was at Lehigh, the PL rule was up to 13 "slots" or equivalencies, broken up as they wish, per year. Simple math demonstrates 13x4=52 full tickets to athletes. Now, instead of being so darn self righteous and or self promoting, what does it really take, beyond a simple change in athletic policy football aid to say, "Okay. Screw need-based aid. We are going after 52 full ticket players. Sure its not the maximum 63 allowable, but it is WHAT WE CAN SPEND ANYWAY by league bylaws."

Now, clearly not all schools spend up to 13 a year or the total which may be 52. Neither do all of the A-10 schools (i.e. Rhody and Richmond). %@ kids is pretty decent two deep, and you will still have kids who pay thier way, or you can give half rides (which W&M does all the time). The money is already spent this way, isn't it? Change the semantics and really put the PL as a trend setter/standard setter.

If you allow it, the need based crap is gone, you have one hell of a marketing ticket that the old originators of the Colonial league missed out on when they tried to become IVY lite...you have rigorous academic standards across the league, and you give the kids the whole boat. That IS unique--need based is not.

Does anyone agree? Isn't it really this simple?

Sounds logical, but you have stumbled in the somewhat hidden backdoor of academia where many do not want to be confused by logic. Some of these institutions have a very strong faculty who will fight every step of the way.

Splitting hairs I know, but my understanding is that Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh are somewhere north of 55 equivalencies at the moment, with Fordham at 50+ and Bucknell getting off their duff to join the others. Georgetown is in a state of confusion and Holy Cross is way down the road in a state of denial.

[TheValleyRaider]

Another interesting twist on the matter: what about the increased profile for the Patriot League in basketball? With Bucknell grabbing wins the past two years (and earning a Top 25 ranking to boot), many Crusader fans are undoubtably saying "That should have been us!" Now the MAAC might have institutional ties (I believe they're all Catholic or formerly Catholic colleges), but no one with the cache of Bucknell in their League. If push comes to shove, and HC is told "get some scholarships or start packing", would they really abandon the great positive press their very important basketball program gets from winning as a member of the Patriot League?

[DFW HOYA]

Splitting hairs I know, but my understanding is that Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh are somewhere north of 55 equivalencies at the moment, with Fordham at 50+ and Bucknell getting off their duff to join the others. Georgetown is in a state of confusion and Holy Cross is way down the road in a state of denial.

Georgetown is not in a state of confusion. It is committed to intercollegiate athletics but burdened by considerable debt issues which limit the University's means to provide basic facilities and capital investment for its teams...at this time.

And don't equate endowment with access to capital. Georgetown's endowment is $200 million more than Holy Cross and HC has much more financial freedom of late.

[Fordham]

I don't want to steal his thunder, but Mr. 13 posted on this exact issue a few months ago and, at the time thought:

Colgate: Yes, dammit!
Lafayette: The closest to Colgate, but don't rush 'em.
Lehigh: A little iffy, but let's see where the new Prez settles in here.
Fordham: Iffy, like Lehigh, but since they are football only members, it is a little uncertain how much serious thought they are giving it.
Bucknell: More scholarships, please! Oh, you're talking about football aren't you?
Georgetown: Which way is the wind blowing today?
Holy Cross: No.

Since this is his defining issue, let's hope that 13 burns his midnight oil tonight and gives us an update. In any event, the only "certains" appear to be Colgate and Holy Cross at the moment. Fordham's not "iffy" - we're definitely in the pro-scholly camp. The questions are whether or not this matters since we're affiliate members (I think it certainly helps but not as much as if a full member supported it) and whether or not our pro-scholly stance is stronger than our tied-to-the-hip w/HC stance.

What is the status of HC's alumni support? It sounds to me like they just got an alumni club going and it's actually something run by the school. What they really need, imo, is some leadership from the alums making it clear how important this is to them. Perhaps some are doing this and I'm just not aware of it but I really get the impression that most alums are resigned to whatever their leadership hands to them.

[ngineer]

Yeah, it is that simple. Anytime academics are used to justify not offering scholarships, there is lying involved. Scholarships actually make it easier to attract quality students who have numerous college options.

Yes, this has been proven with our wrestling and basketball programs. The academics of both teams has RISEN with the use of non-need based scholarships. In fact, over half to the wrestling team has over 3.00 last year.
It soley comes down to philosophy regarding the cost of private college education and making it available to the middle and lower economic classes who could otherwise not afford to send their students to a PL school. It will be up to the League Presidents to decide.

[Go...gate]

Does anybody know if this issue is on the agenda of the PL Council of Presidents? :confused:

[carney2]

Does anybody know if this issue is on the agenda of the PL Council of Presidents? :confused:

Personally, I would be more than surprised if it is. Something as "revolutionary" (for the PL) as this needs to gather some steam before it becomes a legitimate agenda item. At this point, to the best of my knowledge, the only fire under this kettle has come from

a remark or two by the Colgate AD;
some isolated "they should do it" comments by reporters; and
a lot of fussin' on this website.

Not even lukewarm yet.

[carney2]

Georgetown is not in a state of confusion. It is committed to intercollegiate athletics but burdened by considerable debt issues which limit the University's means to provide basic facilities and capital investment for its teams...at this time.

And don't equate endowment with access to capital. Georgetown's endowment is $200 million more than Holy Cross and HC has much more financial freedom of late.

A feeble attempt at humor: state of confusion; state of denial; state of Wyoming; I don't know. Still, the old coach is gone, a new, high profile, coach is hired, but there is every indication that it's business as usual on the Potomac. I, personally, am very confused about Georgetown's place in the PL universe. Why are they here? What are they doing? Where are they going? I don't know. Do you? Does anyone at Georgetown? If they do, they are keeping it a closely guarded secret. State of confusion? Absolutely.

[colgate13]

I don't want to steal his thunder, but Mr. 13 posted on this exact issue a few months ago and, at the time thought:

Colgate: Yes, dammit!
Lafayette: The closest to Colgate, but don't rush 'em.
Lehigh: A little iffy, but let's see where the new Prez settles in here.
Fordham: Iffy, like Lehigh, but since they are football only members, it is a little uncertain how much serious thought they are giving it.
Bucknell: More scholarships, please! Oh, you're talking about football aren't you?
Georgetown: Which way is the wind blowing today?
Holy Cross: No.


Carney, you've got a good handle on it with the exception of Fordham being more on board.

I think this is a 2-3 teams solidly pro, 2-3 in the undecided and 1-2 in the no.

[colgate13]

Does anybody know if this issue is on the agenda of the PL Council of Presidents? :confused:

Rebecca Chopp of Colgate took over the reigns of the Council this year. I believe it is a 2-3 year stint. One of her top agenda items (so I was told) was to not let this football scholarship issue drop and to keep the pressure on. It has already been bought up at the presidents level last fall with a study on league wide expenditures. My personal opinion only: Colgate's time frame to push this through diplomatically or else start weighing some options is her time as chair of this council.

The options?
1. blackmail a la Holy Cross hoops
2. a game of chicken by giving scholarships and telling the PL to kick us out if you dare (an interesting idea since the PL is such a delicate balance... we worry about autobids and stability on the low end if HC left - what about the remaining schools if the top threatened? Would the rest of the PL kick Colgate out over a hypocritical issue like football scholarships if it meant a potential dissolution of the league?)
3. publicly open up the idea of affilate football membership elsewhere and shame the rest of the league for holding onto an antiquated ideal already demolished in other sports
4. 'the nuclear option' - decide we can do better and shop the whole program around. Very little chance of happening due to our great relationships with our schools, but at Colgate, the top sports are football and ice hockey. We want football to be at the level of ice hockey nationally. Hoops is such an also-ran consideration it's not even funny. I think lax passes it by soon if it already hasn't.

[colgate13]

Personally, I would be more than surprised if it is. Something as "revolutionary" (for the PL) as this needs to gather some steam before it becomes a legitimate agenda item. At this point, to the best of my knowledge, the only fire under this kettle has come from

a remark or two by the Colgate AD;
some isolated "they should do it" comments by reporters; and
a lot of fussin' on this website.

Not even lukewarm yet.

It's more than lukewarm at some schools, and as I mentioned, it's already been looked at by the presidents and will not drop.

[carney2]

Rebecca Chopp of Colgate took over the reigns of the Council this year. I believe it is a 2-3 year stint. One of her top agenda items (so I was told) was to not let this football scholarship issue drop and to keep the pressure on.

A woman with a football-esque name and an agenda to match. I like her already.

[colgate13]

A woman with a football-esque name and an agenda to match. I like her already.

Weiss was becoming a good buddy too last I knew. They will lead this thing hand and hand IMO.

[carney2]

Weiss was becoming a good buddy too last I knew. They will lead this thing hand and hand IMO.

If I am absorbing anything at all from what I read here and elsewhere, it appears that Weiss will have a great deal more trouble with his faculty than Chopp will have with hers. Rothkopf allowed them to run wild - run the institution, actually. Prior to Artie's term it was 12 or 13 years of utter chaos, creating a power vacuum that was at least partially occupied by - guess who? - the faculty. The point is that the academics have either been in charge or thought they were in charge for 25 years. Weiss isn't going to wave a magic wand and make those years and that sense of empowerment go away.

[carney2]

I don't want to sound negative here because I'm not, but this question has been rattling around in my empty head for a while. Why are football scholarships such a seemingly critical issue at Colgate? It appears - and I don't know much, so this could be a false conclusion on my part - that it is more important up in Hamilton than on any other PL campus - maybe more important than for all the others combined. It's not like we are going to see Colgate in the Rose Bowl or building an 80,000 seat stadium in the next 25 years so what gives?

[colgate13]

Weiss isn't going to wave a magic wand and make those years and that sense of empowerment go away.

No... but with the backing of the BOT he can get the job done. Ultimately, the school's policy of awarding aid is not up to the faculty but the president. Hey, he got through 4 sports. With time he can get the rest.

[colgate13]

I don't want to sound negative here because I'm not, but this question has been rattling around in my empty head for a while. Why are football scholarships such a seemingly critical issue at Colgate? It appears - and I don't know much, so this could be a false conclusion on my part - that it is more important up in Hamilton than on any other PL campus - maybe more important than for all the others combined. It's not like we are going to see Colgate in the Rose Bowl or building an 80,000 seat stadium in the next 25 years so what gives?
Every school is different, but try and follow me here, because the reasons for CU probably are most pertinent for LC more than any other PL school. So insert 'Lafayette' for Colgate and I think you'll see what I mean.

Colgate is a top 15ish Liberal Arts College (LAC) and we have every desire to continue to move up. I would bet that Chopp's personal goal would be to move us closer to 10 during her time in charge. You know this arms race and how this game goes - so in order to do so Chopp has to raise money and raise our perceived academic stature among our peers. One great way to do that is to increase our incoming scores and tests.

Of course, this is at odds with our other major committment of maintaining a Division I program. One of the major reasons for going to scholarships in all other sports was to increase our academic profile. We do this in two major ways: by being able to increase the academic standards of the athlete themselves and by being able to recruit less diamonds in the rough and get by with a lesser number of blue chips recruits. So for example, instead of having to bring in 5 soccer players a year in the hopes that 2 pan out in 3 years - you bring in 3 potentially smarter than before athletes who will produce as soon as they get their shot. You also get to replace those 2 spots with 2 'normal' students - that physics brainiac or that drama standout.

That has an impact on schools like Colgate when incoming class sizes are 720 or so. It would be even bigger at smaller schools. So when you look at rosters... the elephant in the room is football. HUGE roster size and, typically some of the largest stretches to admit. Imagine taking 30 guys coming in and take that down to 20ish. That's 8-10 students per year that become 'regular' students and that's 20 marginally smarter football players.

You essentially have an opportunity to take the very bottom of a class and replace them with the very top students and improve what is left of the bottom. That kind of impact could buy a school a spot or two in the rankings at our level, and at LC's level it could be even more than that.

So, besides the desire to win and use our money as most efficiently as possible, there are real institutional goals that could be met with a move to football scholarships. That is IMO why Colgate is hot to trot. It's not about the Rose Bowl; it's about the position of the University and our desire to move up.:twocents:

[carney2]

No... but with the backing of the BOT he can get the job done.

Unfortunately, if you look up "idiot" in the dictionary you will find a group photograph of the Lafayette Board of Trustees. (Any Pards out there want to argue this one out, let's find a suitable forum and I'll go to the mat on this one - little, if any, of it related to athletics.)

[carney2]

Pardon me, Mr. 13, if I walk the devil's advocate side of the street here. I want to understand the argument.

My Q&D (quick & dirty) reading of your comments tells me that you believe football scholarships will raise the Academic Index of incoming freshmen. Not only will it do it, but it is a "lock," a non-arguable point. I know that Lehigh states that this has been true for their basketball and wrestling programs, but these are small numbers over a relatively short period of time (and, unfortunately, the only "data" that I have heard on this point). Why is this some sort of a guaranteed result, and wouldn't it begin to break down a little with the larger numbers involved in football, AND the desire to win will place some real stess on your argument as the coaches and influential alumni exert pressures to expand the available pool of talent? No matter how much scholarships expand the applicant pool, there will always be somebody just below the line who is a little bigger, a little faster.

I don't want to get into an in depth pen pal thing here, but, on the surface, your argument - as far as you have taken it - is not as obvious as the sunrise.

[Fordham]

carney, I think it's about a) the size of the applicant pool you can recruit from and b) whether or not you believe that families from better financial means typically produce children who, in turn, produce better "measurables".

It does beg the question of motivations other than simply a raise in ranking, though, 13 ... since completely dissolving the f-ball team would then theoretically have an even greater impact on your ranking.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

...I know that Lehigh states that this has been true for their basketball and wrestling programs, but these are small numbers over a relatively short period of time (and, unfortunately, the only "data" that I have heard on this point)...

I don't know what data you're looking at, but in the recent NCAA report on graduation indexes Lehigh's wrestling team was 83, compared to high 90s and 100's everywhere else. This data was collected 1996-1999, when the only scholarship sport at Lehigh was wrestling.

[Go...gate]

Every school is different, but try and follow me here, because the reasons for CU probably are most pertinent for LC more than any other PL school. So insert 'Lafayette' for Colgate and I think you'll see what I mean.

Colgate is a top 15ish Liberal Arts College (LAC) and we have every desire to continue to move up. I would bet that Chopp's personal goal would be to move us closer to 10 during her time in charge. You know this arms race and how this game goes - so in order to do so Chopp has to raise money and raise our perceived academic stature among our peers. One great way to do that is to increase our incoming scores and tests.

Of course, this is at odds with our other major committment of maintaining a Division I program. One of the major reasons for going to scholarships in all other sports was to increase our academic profile. We do this in two major ways: by being able to increase the academic standards of the athlete themselves and by being able to recruit less diamonds in the rough and get by with a lesser number of blue chips recruits. So for example, instead of having to bring in 5 soccer players a year in the hopes that 2 pan out in 3 years - you bring in 3 potentially smarter than before athletes who will produce as soon as they get their shot. You also get to replace those 2 spots with 2 'normal' students - that physics brainiac or that drama standout.

That has an impact on schools like Colgate when incoming class sizes are 720 or so. It would be even bigger at smaller schools. So when you look at rosters... the elephant in the room is football. HUGE roster size and, typically some of the largest stretches to admit. Imagine taking 30 guys coming in and take that down to 20ish. That's 8-10 students per year that become 'regular' students and that's 20 marginally smarter football players.

You essentially have an opportunity to take the very bottom of a class and replace them with the very top students and improve what is left of the bottom. That kind of impact could buy a school a spot or two in the rankings at our level, and at LC's level it could be even more than that.

So, besides the desire to win and use our money as most efficiently as possible, there are real institutional goals that could be met with a move to football scholarships. That is IMO why Colgate is hot to trot. It's not about the Rose Bowl; it's about the position of the University and our desire to move up.:twocents:

At the very least, Chopp wants to get us past Davidson, which is the only Division I "peer school" ahead of us right now.

[dbackjon]

At the very least, Chopp wants to get us past Davidson, which is the only Division I "peer school" ahead of us right now.


She gonna start doing all the students' laundry?

[colorless raider]

She gonna start doing all the students' laundry?
When my wife took my son there and heard about the laundry deal she said "he' s a lock for Colgate". That's all this generation needs!!

[colgate13]

Pardon me, Mr. 13, if I walk the devil's advocate side of the street here. I want to understand the argument.

My Q&D (quick & dirty) reading of your comments tells me that you believe football scholarships will raise the Academic Index of incoming freshmen. Not only will it do it, but it is a "lock," a non-arguable point. I know that Lehigh states that this has been true for their basketball and wrestling programs, but these are small numbers over a relatively short period of time (and, unfortunately, the only "data" that I have heard on this point). Why is this some sort of a guaranteed result, and wouldn't it begin to break down a little with the larger numbers involved in football, AND the desire to win will place some real stess on your argument as the coaches and influential alumni exert pressures to expand the available pool of talent? No matter how much scholarships expand the applicant pool, there will always be somebody just below the line who is a little bigger, a little faster.

I don't want to get into an in depth pen pal thing here, but, on the surface, your argument - as far as you have taken it - is not as obvious as the sunrise.

My quick and dirty is that:

a) schools put academic minimums on the scholarships. Colgate does this now with our scholarships. The team average of the scholarships used has to be of a certain level, using the AI as a guideline.

b) the trade off of football players to 'regular' students is a no-brainer. There is no 'stretch' there academically. Of course getting rid of the whole team would increase it even more, but this is about acheiving multiple goals. There are trade offs.

c) I don't understand the question about breaking down over larger numbers. The larger numbers of football compound the impact of scholarships rather than break it down. I guess this question is about institutional discipline. I'm not concerned about Colgate succumbing to big boosters and turning into something dishonourable.

d) The results are/were pretty clear from the very first class of scholarships. Overall, without arguement, the players are better and the average academics stats of the teams are higher. Colgate hockey, lacrosse, soccer, swimming (am I forgetting any?) haven't had futures this bright in a long time, if ever.

I guess the bottom line is that schools can manage this as well as they would like, tweaking one side for the other depending on what priority is more important (winning or rising in the rankings). I think what is blantantly clear to me and to Colgate is right now with need-based aid we handicap ourselves to even have that hypothetical question to figure out and answer. At the end of the day in need-based athletic aid you don't control who you can try and enroll most effectively (with money). Therefore you don't have the best players or the best students or the best-student athletes on your teams. You have the best players, students or student-athletes who had the financial background to qualify for enough money to make money a non-issue.

[colgate13]

It does beg the question of motivations other than simply a raise in ranking, though, 13 ... since completely dissolving the f-ball team would then theoretically have an even greater impact on your ranking.

I guess I should have framed my answer within the context of also wanting to be a competitive Division I program. Better athletics/better students/better ranking... it's seen as a win/win/win at Colgate. There is no down-side, so we are therefore hot to trot. It's like knowing the answer to a problem in class; we've got our hand straight up in the air, saying 'oh, oh, I know! I know' and the teacher won't acknowledge you. Instead they're pushing Holy Cross for the answer and they haven't done their homework!

(Crazy analogy. Where did that come from???)

[Go...gate]

I guess I should have framed my answer within the context of also wanting to be a competitive Division I program. Better athletics/better students/better ranking... it's seen as a win/win/win at Colgate. There is no down-side, so we are therefore hot to trot. It's like knowing the answer to a problem in class; we've got our hand straight up in the air, saying 'oh, oh, I know! I know' and the teacher won't acknowledge you. Instead they're pushing Holy Cross for the answer and they haven't done their homework!

(Crazy analogy. Where did that come from???)

Another dynamic here is that it could be said that by giving athletic scholarships in all sports, the PL is broadening its scope and, by doing so, stepping somewhat out of the shadow of the Ivy League and gaining commonality with a new and different group of national peer schools of academic and athletic standing, such as Stanford, Rice, William & Mary, Furman, Wofford, Northwestern, Duke, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Wake Forest, Army, Navy and Air Force.

[colgate13]

Another dynamic here is that it could be said that by giving athletic scholarships in all sports, the PL is broadening its scope and, by doing so, stepping somewhat out of the shadow of the Ivy League and gaining commonality with a new and different group of national peer schools of academic and athletic standing, such as Stanford, Rice, William & Mary, Furman, Wofford, Northwestern, Duke, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Wake Forest, Army, Navy and Air Force.

:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod:

Not a bad group of schools to be like - especially when as a LAC you can really differentiate yourself from that pack while still being peers.