CAA in Monmouth's Future?

[Dave195]

http://blogs.app.com/hawks/2013/08/26/the-long-climb-from-stonehill-to-montana-st/

[Bill]

I don't pretend to know about this situation, but isn't one reason the CAA would not bite the facility at Monmouth...and I don't think the town will let them expand...am I wrong here?

[UNHWildcat18]

Do you think after some success and renovations(even without expanded capacity) are complete the CAA would bite at you guys? Depending on if JMU/UD bolt

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I don't see it without a major facility upgrade. I know there's plans to spruce up Kessler but that's not enough. Monmouth is in a tough spot imo....

They COULD be a better fit basketball wise....

[UNHWildcat18]

Are there academics high enough to be on PL radar(for football)? especially going to 60 Schollies.

[UAalum72]

He almost passes over the facilities issue, which we've been told that because of space and especially neighborhood opposition seems nearly insoluble.

[Dave195]

MU would have no interest in the CAA from a basketball standpoint. The MAAC is the better fit, more stable and better travel. CAA is extremely unstable and has no identity. South? North? Who the hell knows lol. They started expanded schollies this yr and will up to 60ish after this upcoming recruiting class. They're also adding a nice press box etc. to Kessler after this upcoming season. You guys are right on w/ Kessler being sub par compared to the rest of the CAA in football. WLB zoning is also a bitch. But a yr ago they decided to do this this right and move up competition-wise. They're investing the $$ and going in a similar route Stony Brook did w/ NEC to BS to CAA or PL. Their new president Paul Brown came from Lehigh, so that could be a help in securing a spot in the PL. MU's academics have been improving exponentially, but they're still not Lehigh. It's a younger school, so unless the PL relaxes their academic standards for associate members (MAAC is a better fit in bball for MU then PL), MU looks likely to move to the CAA within the next 5yrs (4 yr agreement w/ BS). Once JMU leaves and mayb other larger members leave the CAA, and MU hopefully pushes to make the stadium incrementally better along w/ 60 'ships and playing better competition.... (run-on sentence) MU will be accepted into that league. After going to 60... they're next up for the CAA if they can make further stadium improvements.

[DFW HOYA]

Re: Monmouth to the Patriot League, it's worth revisiting the Rules of Patriot League Expansion.


Rule 1. You do not talk about expansion.


Rule 2. You do NOT talk about expansion.


Rule 3. Only Villanova, William & Mary and Richmond can talk about expansion.


Rule 4: If you are not Villanova, William & Mary or Richmond, go back to rule 2.

[Sader87]

The only school that's going to join the PL for football is (maybe) Villanova....W&M and Richmond are both too Southern-based and both have many other issues re: PL membership i.e. W&M being a state school and RU alums wanting no part of the PL...both will end up in the Southern Conference ultimately.

[PAllen]

So basically, Monmouth wants into the CAA for FB, and the CAA has no interest. The CAA might possibly be able to consider an all sports move that included BBall, but Monmouth has no interest. So nope, not until one of them becomes very desperate. As for the PL, if they do get an invite, we might as well invite Towson back.

[Dave195]

http://www.gomuhawks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209227988&DB_OEM_ID=14300

[WM2001]

http://www.gomuhawks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209227988&DB_OEM_ID=14300

The upgrades have begun! Now, on to the stadium and arena.

[danefan]

Unless Kessler is 8500+ seats, the CAA in its current form isn't an option.

Until that happens, it's not worth discussing.

[Dave195]

MU already has a new arena...

[Dave195]

I think the CAA will take them at less than 8500... but more than what they currently seat

[melloware13]

Although my entire experience with Kessler is just looking at Google Maps at it, and I don't know the situation that WLB has on additional construction/traffic, it seemed to me that adding some seating to the visitor's side (and maybe some to the home) could be enough to bump up to the 8k range.

[Dane96]

I think the CAA will take them at less than 8500... but more than what they currently seat

Not true. Believe us, we have heard this from more than one source. In fact, if Albany did not get the temp seats to get them up to 8500...and dedicated themselves to further expansion, we would not have gotten in the league. Yeager flat out said that publicly (the 8500 benchmark).

[Sly Fox]

8500 seems rather arbitrary and rather small. Is this the direction the CAA feels it must go? At Liberty, we average nearly double that number and the league would never give us the time of day. To some extent, that explains our thirst for an FBS invitation.

[danefan]

8500 seems rather arbitrary and rather small. Is this the direction the CAA feels it must go? At Liberty, we average nearly double that number and the league would never give us the time of day. To some extent, that explains our thirst for an FBS invitation.

It's not really arbitrary. The CAA does to want to keep adding stadiums to the bottom of the league. 8,500 is the bottom end.

The league wants a commitment to facilities. Capacity is a factor in that committment. If you can't build a small 8500 seats stadium, then you really haven't shown a committment to be a member of a top league in the FCS.

[bluehenbillk]

What exactly would Monmouth bring that would interest the CAA? I can't think of anything...

[knucklehead]

8500 seems rather arbitrary and rather small. Is this the direction the CAA feels it must go? At Liberty, we average nearly double that number and the league would never give us the time of day. To some extent, that explains our thirst for an FBS invitation.

Exactly. It does seem odd that they would have such a low goal. This might also be a reason it made sense for ODU to jump and JMU to start looking to leave. Richmond is the one that puzzles me. They could likely fill a much larger stadium, but they built a brand new small one. Just don't get it.

[danefan]

Exactly. It does seem odd that they would have such a low goal. This might also be a reason it made sense for ODU to jump and JMU to start looking to leave. Richmond is the one that puzzles me. They could likely fill a much larger stadium, but they built a brand new small one. Just don't get it.

Richmand didn't have a choice. They couldn't build a bigger stadium on campus. Town wouldn't allow it.

Monmouth has the same problem.

And 8,500 is the bare minimum and even that needed a further committment to expand from Albany to get into the CAA. Albany's 2nd phase is an additional 18,000 seats. Who knows when it will get built.

[danefan]

What exactly would Monmouth bring that would interest the CAA? I can't think of anything...

A northeastern team will to play scholarship football. Warm bodies.

[Go Green]

Not true. Believe us, we have heard this from more than one source. In fact, if Albany did not get the temp seats to get them up to 8500...and dedicated themselves to further expansion, we would not have gotten in the league. Yeager flat out said that publicly (the 8500 benchmark).

So no Georgetown to the CAA either? :(

[Nova09]

Re: Monmouth to the Patriot League, it's worth revisiting the Rules of Patriot League Expansion.


Rule 1. You do not talk about expansion.


Rule 2. You do NOT talk about expansion.


Rule 3. Only Villanova, William & Mary and Richmond can talk about expansion.


Rule 4: If you are not Villanova, William & Mary or Richmond, go back to rule 2.

Rule 5. If you are already in the PL and FCS football is being discussed but no one is talking about PL expansion, talk about PL expansion.

[Dane96]

Richmand didn't have a choice. They couldn't build a bigger stadium on campus. Town wouldn't allow it.

Monmouth has the same problem.

And 8,500 is the bare minimum and even that needed a further committment to expand from Albany to get into the CAA. Albany's 2nd phase is an additional 18,000 seats. Who knows when it will get built.

This...exactly. I believe Stony Brook has "committed" to approximately 13-15,000 more seats as well. I think the next Phase will begin next year to get them up to around 11,000.

[ccd494]

8500 seems rather arbitrary and rather small. Is this the direction the CAA feels it must go? At Liberty, we average nearly double that number and the league would never give us the time of day. To some extent, that explains our thirst for an FBS invitation.

I think a big part of your issue is that the northeastern public universities have no desire to be affiliated with Liberty. You want students at Maine, New Hampshire or Rhode Island to notice there is a football team on campus? Bring Jerry Falwell's school to town and you'll see plenty of kids at the stadium. They'll just be standing outside it with placards.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think a big part of your issue is that the northeastern public universities have no desire to be affiliated with Liberty. You want students at Maine, New Hampshire or Rhode Island to notice there is a football team on campus? Bring Jerry Falwell's school to town and you'll see plenty of kids at the stadium. They'll just be standing outside it with placards.


I saw no placards when Liberty came up to Fisher Field.

[PAllen]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/SeamusLight/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by ccd494 http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/SeamusLight/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=1993163#post1993163)
I think a big part of your issue is that the northeastern public universities have no desire to be affiliated with Liberty. You want students at Maine, New Hampshire or Rhode Island to notice there is a football team on campus? Bring Jerry Falwell's school to town and you'll see plenty of kids at the stadium. They'll just be standing outside it with placards.




I saw no placards when Liberty came up to Fisher Field.

Come on BM, you guys are really slipping of late. Lafayette is not a public university, nor is it in Maine, New Hampshire, or Rhode Island.

Politics aside, Liberty's problem is that while they are on the edge of the CAA FB footprint, they are on the wrong edge. The CAA was looking for teams that could bridge the gap geographically between Nova and URI.

[knucklehead]

I think a big part of your issue is that the northeastern public universities have no desire to be affiliated with Liberty. You want students at Maine, New Hampshire or Rhode Island to notice there is a football team on campus? Bring Jerry Falwell's school to town and you'll see plenty of kids at the stadium. They'll just be standing outside it with placards.

Couldn't be more wrong. I go with LU all over and I have never seen a protest. I heard about a few students at App quite a while ago, but have not seen it since. I went to Stony Brook 2x, went to Montana, JMU - No Protests, No issues. They have played at Wake, WVU, NC State, Ball State, and all over. NO ISSUES. And that is just football. Baseball, Mens and Womens hoops, and many others play all over without incident. Go look up the picture of South Carolina players praying with LU players at home plate at USC.

Liberty Football is just another football team on the road, I assure you.

[ccd494]

Couldn't be more wrong. I go with LU all over and I have never seen a protest. I heard about a few students at App quite a while ago, but have not seen it since. I went to Stony Brook 2x, went to Montana, JMU - No Protests, No issues. They have played at Wake, WVU, NC State, Ball State, and all over. NO ISSUES. And that is just football. Baseball, Mens and Womens hoops, and many others play all over without incident. Go look up the picture of South Carolina players praying with LU players at home plate at USC.

Liberty Football is just another football team on the road, I assure you.

Awful lot of red states on that list. And praying. Not many of those locales voted 80-20% for the legalization of same sex marriage like happened in Orono in 2012. South Carolina may be a public school- but it is still in South Carolina.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that when the Liberty team takes to the road, it does so to play football not to proselytize. I'm not quite ready to believe that the good people of Maine, Rhode Island and New Hampshire have become quite that intolerant.

[knucklehead]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that when the Liberty team takes to the road, it does so to play football not to proselytize. I'm not quite ready to believe that the good people of Maine, Rhode Island and New Hampshire have become quite that intolerant.

Exactly True. Liberty goes and plays ball like everyone else.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So will the same people with the placards be out in force when Elon comes to town? xconfusedx

[Go Green]

seems to me that when the Liberty team takes to the road, it does so to play football not to proselytize.

Admittedly, this was a while back. But I saw Liberty play on the road (a tournament) for a women's volleyball game. They did their warm-ups with gospel music playing.

Is that stll the case for volleyball and other sports?

[knucklehead]

Admittedly, this was a while back. But I saw Liberty play on the road (a tournament) for a women's volleyball game. They did their warm-ups with gospel music playing.

Is that stll the case for volleyball and other sports?

They warm up with a variety of styles of music now - religious and secular.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Admittedly, this was a while back. But I saw Liberty play on the road (a tournament) for a women's volleyball game. They did their warm-ups with gospel music playing.

Is that stll the case for volleyball and other sports?

Back in the day, we used to lift in the weight room with Jethro Tull's "Hymn 43" blaring. Does that count?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm sensing a "Bogie Photoshop Moment" where he finds a raging mob of Mainers, with a Elon placard and a line slash through it....

[andy7171]

Exactly True. Liberty goes and plays ball like everyone else.

Well they use to hand out jesus pamphlets after games instead of shaking hands.

[knucklehead]

Well they use to hand out jesus pamphlets after games instead of shaking hands.

Been following LU Athletics since about '87. Not aware of that, but don't know before my time. They do pray post game and often players from the other team join.

[PAllen]

I'm not quite ready to believe that the good people of Maine, Rhode Island and New Hampshire have become quite that intolerant.

You underestimate the intolerance of "the enlightened".

[andy7171]

Been following LU Athletics since about '87. Not aware of that, but don't know before my time. They do pray post game and often players from the other team join.

I got handed one, three of my five years, at Towson. I graduated in '94.

[knucklehead]

I got handed one, three of my five years, at Towson. I graduated in '94.

Maybe it was pretty obvious to the players that you needed it? haha No really, that's news to me.

[Go Green]

You underestimate the intolerance of "the enlightened".

BYU fans threw the same charge against Cal, UCLA, and Stanford (and arguably others) when they didn't get an invite to the Pac 10/12.

[URMite]

BYU fans threw the same charge against Cal, UCLA, and Stanford (and arguably others) when they didn't get an invite to the Pac 10/12.

Now if you want to see placards, you need this matchup...

'84 Liberty vs '69 Cal

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Now if you want to see placards, you need this matchup...

'84 Liberty vs '69 Cal

Attn: Madden! xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm sensing a "Bogie Photoshop Moment" where he finds a raging mob of Mainers, with a Elon placard and a line slash through it....

Still one of my favorite mascots EVER!


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6374/5z9.gif

[ccd494]

Still one of my favorite mascots EVER!


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6374/5z9.gif

The issue isn't the Christianity, it's the Falwell. Maine has co-existed just fine in Hockey East with BC and PC (and soon will with Notre Dame). There's already enough "why are we trying to keep up with large mid-Atlantic universities in football" sentiment going around to make "we are spending how many million to try to compete with Liberty?!" a question that doesn't need to be invited.

[hebmskebm]

Given the stature (or lack thereof) of non-BCS college football in the Northeast US, I'm fairly certain Liberty could play all of those schools for years without anyone who isn't intensely interested in football knowing or caring.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm sensing a "Bogie Photoshop Moment" where he finds a raging mob of Mainers, with a Elon placard and a line slash through it....

A challenge is a challenge, LFN . . . .



http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7528/m1nl.png

[Sly Fox]

When was that? I have been around the program since '85 and that has NEVER been the case.

And for the record, Missoula may be even more blue than Orono (certainly in raw numbers). And I was there and they couldn't have more gracious to us. For all of the flak they take, the Griz fans were awesome from this Liberty fan's perspective. Ask the Stony Brook guys about playing us.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A challenge is a challenge, LFN . . . .



http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/7528/m1nl.png

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bogus Megapardus again.

[DFW HOYA]

Still one of my favorite mascots EVER!


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6374/5z9.gif


He could take down the Demon Deacon in three rounds.

[Bogus Megapardus]

He could take down the Demon Deacon in three rounds.


I'd even give him reasonable odds against this guy -




http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/989/ouk.png

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ohio Wesleyan's Battlin' Bishop might stand a chance based on rank alone . . .


http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3299/z8c1.jpg



. . . but the Fighting Okra of Delta State wouldn't last the first round.



http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4449/wh65.jpg

[Go...gate]

Exactly True. Liberty goes and plays ball like everyone else.


Seems to me we had a thread about this some time back. These kids are no different than any other kids who get a college education while disciplining themselves to balance their time and energy to play Division I College football. That is no mean task, and the fact that they commit themselves to this intense balancing act is worthy of respect. My hat off to them.

[danefan]

Seems to me we had a thread about this some time back. These kids are no different than any other kids who get a college education while disciplining themselves to balance their time and energy to play Division I College football. That is no mean task, and the fact that they commit themselves to this intense balancing act is worthy of respect. My hat off to them.

no doubt, but there is certainly a political aspect to bringing Liberty University into a conference with large public institutions.

Its a factor that cannot be ignored and I have no doubt it is a reason Liberty was not invited to the SunBelt yet.

[PAllen]

Given the stature (or lack thereof) of non-BCS college football in the Northeast US, I'm fairly certain Liberty could play all of those schools for years without anyone who isn't intensely interested in football knowing or caring.

In reality, this.

[danefan]

In reality, this.

If they are added as a football affiliate, then I'd agree. But as a full member, there are issues outside of athletics.

[Bogus Megapardus]

How remarkably odd. Do other state-funded colleges and universities avoid interaction with religious-based private colleges for reasons of political correctness? Is this a new trend? Are there any journals or other writings on the subject? Honestly, I had no idea this was a topic.

[danefan]

How remarkably odd. Do other state-funded colleges and universities avoid interaction with religious-based private colleges for reasons of political correctness? Is this a new trend? Are there any journals or other writings on the subject? Honestly, I had no idea this was a topic.

Like-minded institutions associating with each other is nothing new Bogus. An institution with such an outwardly religious purpose is unlikely to be "like-minded" with a state funded public school.

[andy7171]

Where is SuperHornet when you need him?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Like-minded institutions associating with each other is nothing new Bogus. An institution with such an outwardly religious purpose is unlikely to be "like-minded" with a state funded public school. Schools such as, say . . . Fordham, Holy Cross, St. Francis, Lafayette, Georgetown, Colgate, Elon, Notre Dame, BYU, Boston College, St. John's, Wake Forest, Penn, Swarthmore, St. Joseph's, Haverford, Wesleyan, Trinity, Seton Hall, LaSalle, Providence, Duquesne, DePaul, St. Bonaventure . . . those kinds of schools? I had no idea. Here I was under the impression that most of them actually were members of common educational consortia with a variety of state schools. Just goes to show you how little I know.

[danefan]

Schools such as, say . . . Fordham, Holy Cross, St. Francis, Lafayette, Georgetown, Colgate, Elon, Notre Dame, BYU, Boston College, St. John's, Wake Forest, Penn, Swarthmore, St. Joseph's, Haverford, Wesleyan, Trinity, Seton Hall, LaSalle, Providence, Duquesne, DePaul, St. Bonaventure . . . those kinds of schools? I had no idea. Here I was under the impression that most of them actually were members of common educational consortia with a variety of state schools. Just goes to show you how little I know.

Sorry to tell you, all of the above are perceived very differently than Liberty. It's reality. You can act as naive as you want.

[Go Green]

How remarkably odd. Do other state-funded colleges and universities avoid interaction with religious-based private colleges for reasons of political correctness? Is this a new trend? Are there any journals or other writings on the subject? Honestly, I had no idea this was a topic.

Like I said, it was widely believed that BYU was not invited to the Pac-10/12 for these kinds of reasons. It's not just LGBT issues (although that is a biggie). Among others, it's stuff like teaching creationism in science classes. It's stuff like banning interracial dating osentislby for religious reasons (although I'm not sure anyone other than Bob Jones had that policy). It's a free country, and those schools have every right to adopt whatever policies they want. But they shouldn't act surprised to find out that the larger public institutions (particularly those that lean left) just can't stomach that stuff.

I have no doubt that the individual players from Liberty, BYU, etc. are great hardworking guys. I'd probably love to have a former Liberty or BYU player as a next door neighbor. But I can understand why some of the larger public institutions (particular those that lean left) don't think that BYU or Liberty would be a good fit for their conferences.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Sorry to tell you, all of the above are perceived very differently than Liberty. It's reality. You can act as naive as you want. Perceived by whom?

[ccd494]

When was that? I have been around the program since '85 and that has NEVER been the case.

And for the record, Missoula may be even more blue than Orono (certainly in raw numbers). And I was there and they couldn't have more gracious to us. For all of the flak they take, the Griz fans were awesome from this Liberty fan's perspective. Ask the Stony Brook guys about playing us.

Right, what I am saying is that the issue isn't the people who attend football games (there are maybe 7 of these people in UMaine's student body).

danefan has the issue on its head: Liberty went out of its way to make itself a political statement. It's founder and driving force stood on the rooftops to preach about every hot political topic of the day, be it LGBT issues, abortion, you name it. Like I said before, Maine is in a hockey conference with four Catholic schools. It's fine, no one cares. But none of those schools has held itself out to be something different than a mainstream American college or university. Liberty was founded on the principle that it would be different. Conferences are (or at least used to be) groups of like minded institutions. Maybe I was a little strong with the "people would protest" imagery, but there would be op-eds and hand wringing and headaches that, say, CCSU wouldn't cause.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I can make this easy for everyone. A bright-line rule. Publicly-funded institutions should never schedule an athletic contest with any college or university that has a prominent, centrally-located, active church or chapel on campus, and which makes that church or chapel a "selling point" to prospective students. Fair enough?

[blackbeard]

I can make this easy for everyone. A bright-line rule. Publicly-funded institutions should never schedule an athletic contest with any college or university that has a prominent, centrally-located, active church or chapel on campus, and which makes that church or chapel a "selling point" to prospective students. Fair enough?

So does that knock out every Catholic school in the Northeast and midwest? Lots of them....

[LeadBolt]

Right, what I am saying is that the issue isn't the people who attend football games (there are maybe 7 of these people in UMaine's student body).

danefan has the issue on its head: Liberty went out of its way to make itself a political statement. It's founder and driving force stood on the rooftops to preach about every hot political topic of the day, be it LGBT issues, abortion, you name it. Like I said before, Maine is in a hockey conference with four Catholic schools. It's fine, no one cares. But none of those schools has held itself out to be something different than a mainstream American college or university. Liberty was founded on the principle that it would be different. Conferences are (or at least used to be) groups of like minded institutions. Maybe I was a little strong with the "people would protest" imagery, but there would be op-eds and hand wringing and headaches that, say, CCSU wouldn't cause.

Wouldn't Liberty playing in Orono promote diversity? I thought those in the NE were all about diversity.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wouldn't Liberty playing in Orono promote diversity? I thought those in the NE were all about diversity. . . . and choice, and tolerance . . .

[Bogus Megapardus]

So does that knock out every Catholic school in the Northeast and midwest? Lots of them.... Certainly knocks Lafayette College out, that's for sure.

[knucklehead]

I could go into all kinds of defensive arguments and tell you about things changing to a degree, but it isn't going to change anyone's mind. The reality is that most of the folks at Liberty are believers in God and take a moral stance based on that belief. I will say though, that Liberty is a place of compassion and second chances. It is not a place of hate and judgement, although there are always some who will act that way.

When it comes to an athletic competition, Liberty is like any other University or College. Our players will fight to win just like yours. The only difference is, they may stop and pray with yours players after a game.

Let's not make this more complicated than that. We are not talking about a professor exchange, we are talking about athletic competition.

[knucklehead]

Wouldn't Liberty playing in Orono promote diversity? I thought those in the NE were all about diversity.

One way street.....Forcefully!

[ccd494]

Wouldn't Liberty playing in Orono promote diversity? I thought those in the NE were all about diversity.

The issue isn't a one-off game or home and home. That would be a non-issue. The issue is conference affiliation. When you affiliate in a conference, you are saying that you are proactively choosing as a group to intertwine yourselves.

Diversity isn't the issue either. I have no problem with Maine being in a conference with Boston College, Providence College, Hartford, Merrimack, Villanova, etc. even though I have big issues with the Catholic Church. Do I agree with everything Fr. Leahy says as BC's president? No, no I do not. But Fr. Leahy is just a dude trying to run a school. He isn't seeking out opportunities to berate America on such things as:

"The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews."

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharaoh's charioteers ... AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."

"Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America."

Regarding 9/11: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"

I understand the man is dead, but the school was founded in his name, based upon his values. I have no problem with Maine playing Liberty, I have no problem with Maine going to Liberty for non-conference games and vice-versa. I do have a problem with Maine creating ties with Liberty that say "hey, us and Liberty? We are in this together. We are partnering up going forward."

[aceinthehole]

On the other hand, you have CCSU - a regional public university - as the lone public member of a conference made up of mostly small private and Catholic colleges.

Bryant - private, nonsectarian
CCSU- public (State of Connecticut)
Fairleigh Dickinson - private, nonsectarian
Long Island-Brooklyn - private, nonsectarian
Mount St. Marys - Catholic, independent
Robert Morris - private, nonsectarian
Sacred Heart - Catholic (Diocese of Bridgeport)
St. Francis-Brooklyn - Catholic (Franciscan)
Saint Francis (PA) - Catholic (Franciscan)
Wagner - private, Lutheran

Notes:
- CCSU was founded as the 6th "normal school" in the U.S., and is the oldest public insitution for higher education in the Connecticut.
- The Mount is the second oldest Catholic college in the United States, after Georgetown.
- SHU was the first Catholic university in the U.S. to be staffed by the laity, and is the second largest Catholic university in New England, behind Boston College.
- SFPA ranks as the first Franciscan college in the country, and one of the first Catholic Universities to become co-educational in the U.S.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Right, what I am saying is that the issue isn't the people who attend football games (there are maybe 7 of these people in UMaine's student body).

danefan has the issue on its head: Liberty went out of its way to make itself a political statement. It's founder and driving force stood on the rooftops to preach about every hot political topic of the day, be it LGBT issues, abortion, you name it. Like I said before, Maine is in a hockey conference with four Catholic schools. It's fine, no one cares. But none of those schools has held itself out to be something different than a mainstream American college or university. Liberty was founded on the principle that it would be different. Conferences are (or at least used to be) groups of like minded institutions. Maybe I was a little strong with the "people would protest" imagery, but there would be op-eds and hand wringing and headaches that, say, CCSU wouldn't cause.

So when a Catholic college or university comes and plays, despite the perceived anti-gay, anti-woman-priest, anti-contraception stance of its religious leadership, that's perfectly fine.... Truth is there are double standards based on local culture. The "Catholic School Culture" has been around in the Northeast and the coasts for so long, it's part of the fabric of the region. Liberty is different, so it gets protests.

My view of Lehigh playing Liberty has not changed one bit since we first played them in the early 00s. They're not the same as Lehigh, they've got different rules, etc., rules where I feel I can point out their differences with Lehigh in a light, but respectful, manner. So they're relatively more conservative politically - big deal! Last I heard, football teams are not a debating society, they're schools in physical competition.

Also, if someone's going to go through the trouble of opposing or op-ed-ing against Liberty, wouldn't they also be railing against for football is a capitalist tool for oppression anyway? I see no reason why a football schedule has to kow-tow to someone who's going to hate you anyway.

[ccd494]

So when a Catholic college or university comes and plays, despite the perceived anti-gay, anti-woman-priest, anti-contraception stance of its religious leadership, that's perfectly fine.... Truth is there are double standards based on local culture. The "Catholic School Culture" has been around in the Northeast and the coasts for so long, it's part of the fabric of the region. Liberty is different, so it gets protests.

My view of Lehigh playing Liberty has not changed one bit since we first played them in the early 00s. They're not the same as Lehigh, they've got different rules, etc., rules where I feel I can point out their differences with Lehigh in a light, but respectful, manner. So they're relatively more conservative politically - big deal! Last I heard, football teams are not a debating society, they're schools in physical competition.

Also, if someone's going to go through the trouble of opposing or op-ed-ing against Liberty, wouldn't they also be railing against for football is a capitalist tool for oppression anyway? I see no reason why a football schedule has to kow-tow to someone who's going to hate you anyway.

Read the above- my issue isn't playing Liberty, it's affiliating in a conference with them. That's my line.

[Go Green]

So when a Catholic college or university comes and plays, despite the perceived anti-gay, anti-woman-priest, anti-contraception stance of its religious leadership, that's perfectly fine.... Truth is there are double standards based on local culture. The "Catholic School Culture" has been around in the Northeast and the coasts for so long, it's part of the fabric of the region. Liberty is different, so it gets protests.


Depends on which Catholic school we're talking about.

Some (but not all) Catholic schools have LGBT clubs. Ditto for contraceptive services.

By and large, Catholic schools generally teach evolution in science classes. Maybe some hard-core Catholic schools do not.

By and large, Georgetown, Notre Dame, BC, are pretty similar in character to the Northeast colleges.

On the other hand, places like Ave Maria and Catholic University (DC) are more hard-core. Those guys aren't being invited to the CAA anytime soon, either.

[URMite]

On the other hand, you have CCSU - a regional public university - as the lone public member of a conference made up of mostly small private and Catholic colleges.

Bryant - private, nonsectarian
CCSU- public (State of Connecticut)
Fairleigh Dickinson - private, nonsectarian
Long Island-Brooklyn - private, nonsectarian
Mount St. Marys - Catholic, independent
Robert Morris - private, nonsectarian
Sacred Heart - Catholic (Diocese of Bridgeport)
St. Francis-Brooklyn - Catholic (Franciscan)
Saint Francis (PA) - Catholic (Franciscan)
Wagner - private, Lutheran

Notes:
- CCSU was founded as the 6th "normal school" in the U.S., and is the oldest public insitution for higher education in the Connecticut.
- The Mount is the second oldest Catholic college in the United States, after Georgetown.
- SHU was the first Catholic university in the U.S. to be staffed by the laity, and is the second largest Catholic university in New England, behind Boston College.
- SFPA ranks as the first Franciscan college in the country, and one of the first Catholic Universities to become co-educational in the U.S.

I assume you guys joined the conference before the Freedom of Information Act? Otherwise, your conference may want to speak to the new Big East about VCU...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

So....can't wait to see Monmouth in action tonight....

[URMite]

Richmond & Liberty have gone in opposite directions since 1977, but how different is Liberty than Wake Forest, Stetson, Samford & Baylor? The other southern Baptist colleges, just as we were once upon a time.

What other colleges are a reflection of an outspoken founder? Oral Roberts? Bob Jones?

[Go Green]

but how different is Liberty than Wake Forest, Stetson, Samford & Baylor

http://lgbtq.wfu.edu/

http://www.stetson.edu/administration/cross-cultural-center/safezone.php

Samford and Baylor are probably closer to Liberty here. Baylor took some grief after Brittney Griner came out. Maybe that speeds up some change.

And of course, there's that evolution thingy.

[URMite]

And of course, there's that evolution thingy.

Per Liberty - "What evolution thingy? Never heard of it."

[PAllen]

Wouldn't Liberty playing in Orono promote diversity? I thought those in the NE were all about diversity.

They're only for the "right kind of diversity". Honestly, I've been told such by a number of left leaning folks from the NE.

[knucklehead]

So, yea, can't wait for Liberty to beat Monmouth next Saturday in Lynchburg!

[Go Green]

Per Liberty - "What evolution thingy? Never heard of it."

And that's a big reason why stuff like this happens.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/19/bill-maher-new-rule-liberty-university_n_1530400.html

It is what it is...

[Bogus Megapardus]

And that's a big reason why stuff like this happens.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/19/bill-maher-new-rule-liberty-university_n_1530400.html

It is what it is...


Maher makes some powerful, confident statements. Any of you folks from Liberty U. know offhand how much time he spent on campus researching his bases? Just a ballpark figure if you know; no need to go to any trouble.

I'm real glad that Bill cleared things up for me, though. So now, any institution that provides instruction in the Bible to any degree, even to a single student - whether as a source of spiritual institution or simply as a historical document - no longer is a "college" or a "university." That's because the first two books of the Bible contain references to "creationism."

Here's a thought - If we skip Genesis and Exodus, and go straight to Leviticus, can those of us who've already graduated keep our degrees? I'd hate to have to go to night school at my age. I know a bunch of M.D.s who'd be in a real bind, too.

[Laker]

"Maher is a comedian"

That would also be a theory.:D

[ccd494]

They're only for the "right kind of diversity". Honestly, I've been told such by a number of left leaning folks from the NE.

I disagree with this. I'm not trying to deprive anyone of their right to say something I disagree with. I just don't want to associate with them. If you are anti-LGBT, okay, fine, I disagree but you can think and say whatever. I'm not going to take away your right to say something I think is stupid.

But I don't think that "diversity" means that I have to let you deprive someone else of human rights.

Don't like the idea of two dudes getting married? Don't marry another dude. I respect your right to do that. But when you start depriving those two dudes of the right to get married, you are going a step beyond and actively inhibiting someone else's legal rights.

[Bogus Megapardus]

But when you start depriving two dudes of the right to get married . . .


What about three?

[ccd494]

What about three?

Gay couples are as free to have consensual sex outside their marriage as straight couples are. A marriage is a union of two consenting adults. The "slippery slope" argument of "when can I marry my goat/television/clock?" is beside the point.

How the heck did we get here, by the way?

[Bogus Megapardus]

A marriage is a union of two consenting adults.


Says where?

Just for kicks and giggles let's say that the only definition of marriage that I care about is one that is defined as a "covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, [and] is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring," that the covenant applies only "between baptized persons" and "has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

Other than getting Bill Maher's skivvies all in a bunch, what's the current penalty for thinking this way? Am I allowed to adhere to this view exclusive of any alternate definition and to express it to others?

[PAllen]

I disagree with this. I'm not trying to deprive anyone of their right to say something I disagree with. I just don't want to associate with them. If you are anti-LGBT, okay, fine, I disagree but you can think and say whatever. I'm not going to take away your right to say something I think is stupid.

But I don't think that "diversity" means that I have to let you deprive someone else of human rights.

Don't like the idea of two dudes getting married? Don't marry another dude. I respect your right to do that. But when you start depriving those two dudes of the right to get married, you are going a step beyond and actively inhibiting someone else's legal rights.

Honestly, I'm anti-bigotry in all of its forms. That includes those who currently want to suppress intelligent discussion of opinions and theories that don't equate to their own.

Now, back to football. It is day 1 of the season!

[ccd494]

Ugh, I had typed something up but the new system doesn't let me respond to anything until I read all PM's, and PM's now include times you're quoted, and I lost like four paragraphs.

I'm just going to say- you can think whatever you want. Just don't work to actively deny other people the right to live their lives in a way that doesn't harm anyone. If my heterosexual marriage between a non-religious, unbaptized male and lapsed Catholic baptized female isn't what you view as legitimate, I don't care. As long as the government lets me file jointly and my spouse gets favorable tax and benefits as commensurate with all other couples in relationships recognized by the state, I'm happy.

[Go Green]

That includes those who currently want to suppress intelligent discussion of opinions and theories that don't equate to their own.

Well, that's the rub, isn't it?



Now, back to football. It is day 1 of the season!

Now THIS I agree with! xhurrayx

[Bogus Megapardus]

human rights

I think we might be mixing apples and oranges here. I'm talking about a sacramental bond and it appears that you're talking about a tax filing status.

My bad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm just going to say- you can think whatever you want. Just don't work to actively deny other people the right to live their lives in a way that doesn't harm anyone.

Ironically, if people op-ed that they don't want Liberty to play football against Maine because of "what Liberty represents", they would be denying other people the right to watch a Division I football game between athletes of the two schools that may or may not share the strict dogma, or lack thereof, represented by their institutions.

And last I checked, a football game between two schools didn't harm any fans.

[knucklehead]

Look, it's gameday and this has turned plain stupid. The true reality is that in the realm of athletic competition, Liberty plays anyone and everyone in any and every sport. There are no issues or protests, so we are debating a non issue. You believe your beliefs, I'll believe mine and then my player will come piledrive yours into the ground and vice versa.
in Less than 3 hours I get to see my favorite football team take on Kent St on ESPN 3, and I'm sooo ready.

[danefan]

This thread is evidence enough that Liberty brings baggage to a conference. Like it or not, it's true and it is a factor in the conference expansion discussion.

[Sader87]

So is Liberty joining the CAA for football?

[Dane96]

Haha...nice Sader.

Holy everyone else...getting off of the thread.

[PAllen]

If Liberty were located in CT, they'd already be in the CAA, but they're SW of Richmond which is outside of where the CAA wants to be right now. Add the fact the Liberty is openly courting a FBS invite and no, the CAA isn't interested.

[rokamortis]

If Liberty were located in CT, they'd already be in the CAA, but they're SW of Richmond which is outside of where the CAA wants to be right now. Add the fact the Liberty is openly courting a FBS invite and no, the CAA isn't interested.

Elon is southwest of Richmond, right?

[chargeradio]

It would make sense for Monmouth, but I don't see it happening unless if James Madison or Delaware get taken by a FBS conference. Both leaving the CAA could be problematic for Monmouth unless if Furman is on board as #12.

There's no reason for the CAA to go above 12 in football. At that point America East might as well start sponsoring itself and form their own football league with Monmouth and Rhode Island as affiliates.

[PAllen]

Elon is southwest of Richmond, right?

I didn't realize that Elon was openly courting a FBS invite.

[Tod]

This thread is evidence enough that Liberty brings baggage to a conference. Like it or not, it's true and it is a factor in the conference expansion discussion.

Wow! That's true. End of discussion.

[Go...gate]

Schools such as, say . . . Fordham, Holy Cross, St. Francis, Lafayette, Georgetown, Colgate, Elon, Notre Dame, BYU, Boston College, St. John's, Wake Forest, Penn, Swarthmore, St. Joseph's, Haverford, Wesleyan, Trinity, Seton Hall, LaSalle, Providence, Duquesne, DePaul, St. Bonaventure . . . those kinds of schools? I had no idea. Here I was under the impression that most of them actually were members of common educational consortia with a variety of state schools. Just goes to show you how little I know.

As a graduate of what was formerly a Baptist theological seminary (Colgate), I am with you, Bogus.

[Go...gate]

Look, it's gameday and this has turned plain stupid. The true reality is that in the realm of athletic competition, Liberty plays anyone and everyone in any and every sport. There are no issues or protests, so we are debating a non issue. You believe your beliefs, I'll believe mine and then my player will come piledrive yours into the ground and vice versa.
in Less than 3 hours I get to see my favorite football team take on Kent St on ESPN 3, and I'm sooo ready.

Well said.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

As a graduate of what was formerly a Baptist theological seminary (Colgate), I am with you, Bogus.

"Temple" was founded on baptist principles as well. The school is named after the Baptist church on campus....

Most people I've come across believe TU is a respected, private, religiously affiliated school. They're often very surprised to find out it's actually a state school.

[Bogus Megapardus]

"Temple" was founded on baptist principles as well. The school is named after the Baptist church on campus....

Most people I've come across believe TU is a respected, private, religiously affiliated school. They're often very surprised to find out it's actually a state school.

I suppose I am probably one of the half dozen or so non-Temple people to know this bit of trivia (though I have good reason to know it), but were you aware that the original Temple University seminary still exists in the form of the Gordon–Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I suppose I am probably one of the half dozen or so non-Temple people to know this bit of trivia (though I have good reason to know it), but were you aware that the original Temple University seminary still exists in the form of the Gordon–Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass?

I honestly did not know that. Based on the little bit of reading I've done, Conwell seemed like a pretty interesting character. He had a broad view of things based on his religious and academic background. One thing that hurts Temple a little in some rankings, especially that Forbes one, is the schools ties to the Philadelphia Public School System and the fact that Temple's roots are really in professional education rather than undergrad.

[RichH2]

I disagree with this. I'm not trying to deprive anyone of their right to say something I disagree with. I just don't want to associate with them. If you are anti-LGBT, okay, fine, I disagree but you can think and say whatever. I'm not going to take away your right to say something I think is stupid.

But I don't think that "diversity" means that I have to let you deprive someone else of human rights.

Don't like the idea of two dudes getting married? Don't marry another dude. I respect your right to do that. But when you start depriving those two dudes of the right to get married, you are going a step beyond and actively inhibiting someone else's legal rights.
Too much politics but you are 100% correct

[RichH2]

Says where?

Just for kicks and giggles let's say that the only definition of marriage that I care about is one that is defined as a "covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, [and] is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring," that the covenant applies only "between baptized persons" and "has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."

Other than getting Bill Maher's skivvies all in a bunch, what's the current penalty for thinking this way? Am I allowed to adhere to this view exclusive of any alternate definition and to express it to others?
Yup ,as should those who disagree with you. No one person or group should have a monopoly on "correct speech"

[NFLCB2]

It would make sense for Monmouth, but I don't see it happening unless if James Madison or Delaware get taken by a FBS conference. Both leaving the CAA could be problematic for Monmouth unless if Furman is on board as #12.

There's no reason for the CAA to go above 12 in football. At that point America East might as well start sponsoring itself and form their own football league with Monmouth and Rhode Island as affiliates.

Ive been saying for years the American East should have a conf, you could have Maine (Maybe), UNH (maybe), Monmouth, convince Northeastern and Hofstra to bring back their programs add fordham, Albany, Stony brook (Maybe), Rhode island and poach some of the NEC teams. I know its a stretch but its a start!

[UNHWildcat18]

Ive been saying for years the American East should have a conf, you could have Maine (Maybe), UNH (maybe), Monmouth, convince Northeastern and Hofstra to bring back their programs add fordham, Albany, Stony brook (Maybe), Rhode island and poach some of the NEC teams. I know its a stretch but its a start!

It's tough though because of the prestige of the CAA, losing playoff status for 2 years. hofstra and NU will never bring football back. If AE made football it would basically be the same as caa now just lose JMU to fbs and replace UR and W&M( to soconn) with monmouth and someone else. But it will never happen

[NFLCB2]

It's tough though because of the prestige of the CAA, losing playoff status for 2 years. hofstra and NU will never bring football back. If AE made football it would basically be the same as caa now just lose JMU to fbs and replace UR and W&M( to soconn) with monmouth and someone else. But it will never happen

I agree.. I saw Monmouth being in this very position years ago. Trying to make the best out of being in the Big South, they are in a tough position. I don't foresee and invite to the CAA but I pray to the football Gods for the American East!

[Stonewall D]

So is Liberty joining the CAA for football?
Sounds like a good idea to me. Liberty is a great school for football. UR hired Liberty's coach and it was a good hire.

[Go...gate]

I honestly did not know that. Based on the little bit of reading I've done, Conwell seemed like a pretty interesting character. He had a broad view of things based on his religious and academic background. One thing that hurts Temple a little in some rankings, especially that Forbes one, is the schools ties to the Philadelphia Public School System and the fact that Temple's roots are really in professional education rather than undergrad.

Temple does not get nearly the credit it deserves. I have never known anyone who did not feel that they received an outstanding education.

[Tribal]

If homosexuals want to get married, let them. They have every right to be as miserable as the rest of us. xpeacex