UMass and South Alabama Could Face 10 Year Probation

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Division I Board of Directors elected three new schools to active Football Bowl Subdivision membership beginning with the 2013-14 academic year and recognized two new single-sport conferences, beginning immediately.

Massachusetts and South Alabama were approved but must meet minimum football attendance requirements this season, while Texas State moves into the FBS with no restrictions.

Both UMass and South Alabama failed to satisfy the actual or paid 15,000 attendance requirement over a rolling two-year period for FBS schools. Their move to the FBS will be contingent upon having 15,000 in actual average attendance in the 2013 football season. If the requirement is not met, the schools will receive a notice of noncompliance and enter a 10-year probationary period.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/resources/latest+news/2013/august/division+i+schools+reclassify+conferences+added

xeekx

[clenz]

what does that probation actually do?

If they don't get to it do they get forced down?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/Division%20I%20Forms/2010-11%20FBS%20Forms/Football%20Bowl%20Subqa%2012%208%2010.pdf

Q. What is the penalty for noncompliance with any of the FBS membership requirements?

A. An institution that fails to satisfy any of the FBS membership requirements set forth in Bylaws 20.9.7.1 through 20.9.7.4 shall receive notice of such noncompliance. After receiving notice, any further noncompliance with the FBS requirements within a 10-year period shall cause the institution to be placed in restrictive membership. While in restricted membership, an institution shall not be eligible for postseason football competition. At the conclusion of the one-year period, the institution shall be granted membership in its preferred division, provided the institution complies with the division’s criteria. If the member does not meet the criteria of any division at the conclusion of the restricted membership period, the institution may continue to be classified as a Division I member in sports other than football, provided the institution satisfies the Division I membership requirements set forth in Bylaws 20.9.1 through 20.9.5. A Division I member that loses FBS status must comply with the multidivision classification requirements (a two-year process) set forth in Bylaw 20.4 to regain such status. [Bylaws 20.9.7.5.1 and 20.9.7.5.2]

I believe the answer to this is "yes". USA and UMass are in the "one-year" period where they have to demonstrate that they can meet the 15,000 requirement. If not, they're in "restrictive membership". Other boards (http://groove.csnbbs.com/printthread.php?tid=614313&page=2?tid=614313&page=2) have interpreted this to mean: "they can be removed from FBS".

[clenz]

How would their conferences handle the relegation?

I can't imagine the SBC would allow an all sports member to be non-SBC in football.


I supposed the A10/MAC wouldn't give 2 ****s

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How would their conferences handle the relegation?

I can't imagine the SBC would allow an all sports member to be non-SBC in football.


I supposed the A10/MAC wouldn't give 2 ****s

LOL in regards to UMass you're right. USA is trickier, but the Sun Belt would still have 11 members (9 full members, 2 affiliates). Though losing USA to attendance requirements might not be a good lobbying platform for continuing to hang with the FBS big boys.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Boy, that was really worth it, wasn't it?

[DFW HOYA]

That's a very misleading headline. There is no "probation" in the enforcement sense. The link above speaks to a probationary period.

Bottom line, UMass and South Alabama would be ineligible for a bowl as long as they continue under 15K. They are not, however, ineligible to play in the subdivision nor the conference they are members in.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

That's a very misleading headline. There is no "probation" in the enforcement sense. The link above speaks to a probationary period.

Bottom line, UMass and South Alabama would be ineligible for a bowl as long as they continue under 15K. They are not, however, ineligible to play in the subdivision nor the conference they are members in.

But with no bowl, no bowl money.....therefore no benefits.

[dbackjon]

That's a very misleading headline. There is no "probation" in the enforcement sense. The link above speaks to a probationary period.

Bottom line, UMass and South Alabama would be ineligible for a bowl as long as they continue under 15K. They are not, however, ineligible to play in the subdivision nor the conference they are members in.


So then what is the point of playing FBS?

[BisonFan02]

what does that probation actually do?

If they don't get to it do they get forced down?

http://barfblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/animal_house_double_secret_probation.png

[melloware13]

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf

It seems as if USA should be on track, but UMass will need an increase in over 4k. For some reason, their home schedule of Maine, Vanderbilt, Miami (OH), Western Michigan, Northern Illinois, and Akron doesn't seem to be interesting enough to cause that bump, unless they start giving tickets away in the Boston area.

[Pard4Life]

http://theathleticnerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/the-matrix-whoa.jpg

So... no attendance, no bowl. No bowls, no interest, no attendance. Ah, catch-22... the NCAA's methodology and logic revealed to all!

[Pard4Life]

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf

It seems as if USA should be on track, but UMass will need an increase in over 4k. For some reason, their home schedule of Maine, Vanderbilt, Miami (OH), Western Michigan, Northern Illinois, and Akron doesn't seem to be interesting enough to cause that bump, unless they start giving tickets away in the Boston area.

That would not count as 'paid' attendance.

[BisonFan02]

That would not count as 'paid' attendance.

It would if a sponsor bought the tickets and gave them away.

[clenz]

http://theathleticnerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/the-matrix-whoa.jpg

So... no attendance, no bowl. No bowls, no interest, no attendance. Ah, catch-22... the NCAA's methodology and logic revealed to all! http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/b/b3/Kevin-Butler-Mind-Blown.gif

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If Umass needs to survive until they get back to Amherst. I like their potential, relatively speaking, once that happens. The Gillette deal is one of the most idiotic decisions I've seen a university make.

[klak]

But with no bowl, no bowl money.....therefore no benefits.

Bowl money is pooled and split evenly between all conference members.

[asumike83]

Straight from the NCAA website:

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2010.pdf
2010 - South Alabama (18,765)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2011.pdf
2011 - South Alabama (18,442)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf
2012 - South Alabama (16,793)

Does anyone fact-check these press releases?

[IBleedYellow]

Straight from the NCAA website:

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2010.pdf
2010 - South Alabama (18,765)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2011.pdf
2011 - South Alabama (18,442)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf
2012 - South Alabama (16,793)

Does anyone fact-check these press releases?


It's just LFN being LFN, carry on.

[Pard4Life]

It's just LFN being LFN, carry on.

Does LFN write NCAA press releases? No...

If those attendance numbers above are true, then the paid attendance must be below the minimum.

[Pard4Life]

It's just LFN being LFN, carry on.

Does LFN write NCAA press releases? No...

If those attendance numbers above are true, then the paid attendance must be below the minimum.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

breakthrough post to get to pg. 3

[Cocky]

USA used Troy ticket counter. Troy would be lucky to have 9000 if you counted butts in the seats. USA would be closer to 10000. This doesnt consider the paid ticket part.

[asumike83]

One way or another, the NCAA dropped the ball. The press release says they did not meet "the actual or paid 15,000 attendance requirement". It would be very odd for the NCAA's official attendance records to be inaccurate as a representation of both actual and paid attendance by a significant amount. Either their records are just arbitrary numbers or they failed to do even a little research before releasing this communication.

[SpiritCymbal]

Straight from the NCAA website:

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2010.pdf
2010 - South Alabama (18,765)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2011.pdf
2011 - South Alabama (18,442)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf
2012 - South Alabama (16,793)

Does anyone fact-check these press releases?

Announced attendance is different than actual attendance. "Actual attendance" means people that walked through the gate and are in the stadium with a ticket that has a cost assigned to it. "Announced attendance" is simply the number of tickets off the system, including comp tickets.


It would if a sponsor bought the tickets and gave them away.
"Actual Attendance" would only include the people that showed up to the game using those tickets.


The Gillette deal is one of the most idiotic decisions I've seen a university make.

Totally agree!

[Jazzman1522]

This is interesting. I might be able to use it the next inevitable time somebody comes to the EKU boards arguing that we need to move to the Sun Belt because it's high time we developed an inferiority complex with Western Kentucky. Cause there's no way we're getting 15,000 to watch an epic showdown with Georgia State with a coveted New Orleans Bowl berth on the line.

[DFW HOYA]

Announced attendance is different than actual attendance. "Actual attendance" means people that walked through the gate and are in the stadium with a ticket that has a cost assigned to it. "Announced attendance" is simply the number of tickets off the system, including comp tickets.

Correct. In basketball, DePaul got embarrassed by this in 2012-13. Their announced attendance average was 7,900, but an audit of TicketMaster scans entering the arena indicated the average was just over 2,900 a game.

It's possible South Alabama was following a similar tactic.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Bowl money is pooled and split evenly between all conference members.

How long will that last with a bowl ban?

[asumike83]

The discrepancy between announced and paid attendance could very well be why they were cited, it just doesn't seem logical for the NCAA to use one figure for their attendance records and another to enforce their attendance requirements.

[darell1976]

How can USA and UMass get punished when most of the MAC doesn't reach 15,000. Its probably been a decade since Eastern Michigan has seen 10,000. I think they averaged 4,000 last season.xconfusedx

[clenz]

How can USA and UMass get punished when most of the MAC doesn't reach 15,000. Its probably been a decade since Eastern Michigan has seen 10,000. I think they averaged 4,000 last season.xconfusedx

Well established program is tougher to hit than a new program

quando omni flunkus moritati

[darell1976]

Well established program is tougher to hit than a new program

quando omni flunkus moritati

The ol' NCAA double standard.

[bojeta]

Wasn't USA touting high attendance in excess of 15,000, even when they were playing a predominantly DII schedule?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can't prove it conclusively but one of these announced attendances in 2012 is not like the others:

UTSA 17.144
Nicholls 15,237
Troy 23,789
FAU 17.566
MTSU 15,087
FIU 11,936

The NCAA either used some other way to more accurately look at their attendance numbers or called them out on inflating their numbers artificially. I'm guessing the latter. In 2011, they claimed they averaged 18,442 with teams like West Alabama dotting the schedule.

[bojeta]

I just checked USA's 2011 attendance. They averaged 18,442 for home games with a capacity of just over 40,000. Their last true FCS season finished this way:
November 19

Opponent: Cal Poly. Location: Ladd-Peebles Stadium • Mobile, AL. Result: L 10–41 Attendance: 18,279

And thus we sent them on their FBS way.

Note: According to Wikipedia, Average home attendance for 2012 was 16,793

[ThompsonThe]

How can USA and UMass get punished when most of the MAC doesn't reach 15,000. Its probably been a decade since Eastern Michigan has seen 10,000. I think they averaged 4,000 last season.xconfusedx
Had read in the MAC Board that EMU has an arraignment with Pepsi. They sell exclusively Pepsi products, and Pepsi every other year buys enough tickets to get them up to 15,000 for the NCAA requirement.

[IBleedYellow]

Had read in the MAC Board that EMU has an arraignment with Pepsi. They sell exclusively Pepsi products, and Pepsi every other year buys enough tickets to get them up to 15,000 for the NCAA requirement.

Genius.

"Pay for this amount of tickets to keep us playing and we'll sell your product."

Who was able to get that deal inked, probably is making more money for the school than they would have thought.

[dbackjon]

If Umass needs to survive until they get back to Amherst. I like their potential, relatively speaking, once that happens. The Gillette deal is one of the most idiotic decisions I've seen a university make.

No doubt!

[dbackjon]

Straight from the NCAA website:

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2010.pdf
2010 - South Alabama (18,765)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2011.pdf
2011 - South Alabama (18,442)

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf
2012 - South Alabama (16,793)

Does anyone fact-check these press releases?

There are two sets of attendance figures - the first, which is publically reported, is above.
The second, which is what the NCAA uses to determine the 15,000 number, only counts 'qualified tickets" Free, or sharply discounted tickets do not qualify.

[dbackjon]

The ol' NCAA double standard.

No it isn't. Just the difference between bodies in the stands versus actual SOLD tickets that qualify.

[dbackjon]

arkstfan on csnbbs had a great rundown on this:

There are two sets of numbers.

The publicly available attendance numbers on the NCAA website are from the box scores the schools send in as part of the stats record keeping. Those numbers have absolutely no meaning for FBS purposes. Those numbers could be tickets distributed, turnstile count, or the SID looking out the press box window and writing down the number that looks "about right".

A second set of numbers is submitted in February. It is the certified count and those are the numbers that matter.

Those numbers are:
1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
2. Students admitted for free if they pay student fee for athletics.
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.
4. Tickets purchased by a booster club are excluded from the count. One institution entering CUSA this year is currently on attendance probation for another 7 years or so because of an accounting error (or more correctly someone keeping the books in a proper accounting manner). The school had previously counted donations to the booster club like this. Donor gives $100, they treated it as the purchase of $100 in tickets, the tickets were then "donated" to the booster club. One year they marked those down in the books as a donation of $100 and then the booster club purchased the tickets. That made those previously counted tickets not count because they were reflected (accurately) as a donation followed by a booster club purchase. The new person who screwed that up was counseled and they've had no problems since.

Accounting matters. Let's say your cheap ticket is $20 and top ticket is $300. You do a bulk deal with a local business. They spend $2000 for 400 tickets. That's an effective price of $5. None of the 400 count. Restructure it so they receive 200 tickets at $10 and 200 free. If 200 get used you can count 200. Or you write it up as 133 tickets at $15 and 267 comped. You can count the 133 whether or not they are used.

Box score numbers and the certified count don't often match up well. For example several years back the Kansas City Star found that the box score counts for Kansas were nearly double the certified count. One of the Tampa/St. Pete papers found a similar gap at USF around the time they moving up. Nearly 20 years ago Arkansas State had a promotion with a local business to sell super discounted tickets for a big local game. The marketing director who put it together had the fee from the business deposited in the marketing account (more glory!) rather than paid to the Central Box Office. Because of how that was done, just over 16,000 of a crowd of 30,000 was countable.


http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=643389&pid=9576012#pid9576012

[asumike83]

No it isn't. Just the difference between bodies in the stands versus actual SOLD tickets that qualify.

I believe the double standard he's referring to is enforcing the rules for new FBS members but not those who are current members. I think you should have to meet the requirements to stay FBS, not just enter.

Either way, just a bunch of smoke. No team has ever been forced down or kicked out of a conference for attendance and I don't think USA or UMass will be the first. If they have to find a loophole and have a corporation buy tickets, they will. The rule itself is pointless if it is not butts in seats, because there will always be a way around it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One institution entering CUSA this year is currently on attendance probation for another 7 years or so because of an accounting error (or more correctly someone keeping the books in a proper accounting manner). The school had previously counted donations to the booster club like this. Donor gives $100, they treated it as the purchase of $100 in tickets, the tickets were then "donated" to the booster club. One year they marked those down in the books as a donation of $100 and then the booster club purchased the tickets. That made those previously counted tickets not count because they were reflected (accurately) as a donation followed by a booster club purchase. The new person who screwed that up was counseled and they've had no problems since.

I'm assuming this is not ODU, which means it could be FAU, FIU, MTSU, La. Tech, North Texas, or UTSA. Was it FIU?

[asumike83]

I'm assuming this is not ODU, which means it could be FAU, FIU, MTSU, La. Tech, North Texas, or UTSA. Was it FIU?

I'd be willing to bet on one of the Florida schools. Almost certain it is not ODU, MTSU, LA Tech, UNT or UTSA.

[dbackjon]

I'm assuming this is not ODU, which means it could be FAU, FIU, MTSU, La. Tech, North Texas, or UTSA. Was it FIU?


Not sure - but good chance it is FIU

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I believe the double standard he's referring to is enforcing the rules for new FBS members but not those who are current members. I think you should have to meet the requirements to stay FBS, not just enter.

Either way, just a bunch of smoke. No team has ever been forced down and I don't think USA or UMass will be the first. If they have to find a loophole and have a corporation buy tickets, they will. The rule itself is pointless if it is not butts in seats, because there will always be a way around it.

Of course, asumike sees nothing wrong with soaking someone in order to artificially prop up ticket accounting to make it look like more people are interested in your football product than are in reality, which is what the 15,000 attendance requirement is ostensibly supposed to measure.

Let me get this straight - you're for higher standards to stay, but also for corporations buying out the seats to fudge the numbers? Mr. Kerry, I had no idea you were an ASU fan. xlolx

[asumike83]

Of course, asumike sees nothing wrong with soaking someone in order to artificially prop up ticket accounting to make it look like more people are interested in your football product than are in reality, which is what the 15,000 attendance requirement is ostensibly supposed to measure.

Let me get this straight - you're for higher standards to stay, but also for corporations buying out the seats to fudge the numbers? Mr. Kerry, I had no idea you were an ASU fan. xlolx

No idea how you came to that conclusion but it couldn't be more incorrect.

I said that all FBS members should have to meet the requirement and that the rule is pointless unless it is butts in the seats.

I think the requirement should be an average of 15,000 people in the stands and it should be enforced for all FBS members, current and new. If that is not clear enough, let me know.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No idea how you came to that conclusion but it couldn't be more incorrect.

I said that all FBS members should have to meet the requirement and that the rule pointless unless it is butts in the seats.

I think the requirement should be an average of 15,000 people in the stands and it should be enforced for all FBS members, current and new. If that is not clear enough, let me know.

So you're for UMass and USA being sent packing if they don't actually average 15,000 butts in the seats this season. You're then not for them "finding a loophole". Just so we're clear.

Same with Eastern Michigan, FIU, UAB, or any number of other teams. Again, just so we're clear. You'll be the first to cheer them back to FCS.

[Saint3333]

If you can't meet the scholarship or attendance requirements time to move down. I wish the FCS had minimums as well. Perhaps we can establish those the next round.

[asumike83]

So you're for UMass and USA being sent packing if they don't actually average 15,000 butts in the seats this season. You're then not for them "finding a loophole". Just so we're clear.

Same with Eastern Michigan, FIU, UAB, or any number of other teams. Again, just so we're clear. You'll be the first to cheer them back to FCS.

Yes. Having a rule with such an easy loophole is not a good thing. I could see UMass getting an extension until their on-campus stadium is ready but generally speaking, I think you should be able to put 15K in the seats if you want to be an FBS program.

EMU is the worst offender, I think they've been at around 4K the last several years and get a company to gobble up tickets every few years so the numbers will work.

I do think these programs should be given an opportunity to remain FBS. That could be be presenting a plan for facilities upgrades, a campaign to get your students/alumni more involved, etc. but not by simply fudging the numbers. Of course, there would have to be some common sense used (e.g. not booting a school for averaging 14,850) but if a program cannot draw the minimum and is either unwilling or unable to do what is necessary to get there, then I'd fully support transitioning them to the FCS.

[DFW HOYA]

If you can't meet the scholarship or attendance requirements time to move down. I wish the FCS had minimums as well. Perhaps we can establish those the next round.

OK, I'll bite...what minimums?

And where exactly does a program go that can't meet it, mindful of the rules in NCAA regarding cross-divisional status?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

So you're for UMass and USA being sent packing if they don't actually average 15,000 butts in the seats this season. You're then not for them "finding a loophole". Just so we're clear.

Same with Eastern Michigan, FIU, UAB, or any number of other teams. Again, just so we're clear. You'll be the first to cheer them back to FCS.

Jesus man, he said there are loopholes, he didn't say he liked them or supported them.

It's advertising money there is no question about that but the Athletic Dept.'s doing it are taking the hit somewhere because there isn't more money for the program by doing it that way. If those teams want to put on the facade they are something when it's pretty visible they are not then why care?

I'd rather see them stay there than be back in FCS anyway it's just gonna make FCS look like it's a dumping ground for lackluster FBS programs. Rather have the schools that want to be here and cherish the structure fo this division.

[pike51]

I'd rather see them stay there than be back in FCS anyway it's just gonna make FCS look like it's a dumping ground for lackluster FBS programs. Rather have the schools that want to be here and cherish the structure fo this division.

Admit it, you don't want Georgia State back in FCS.

[dbackjon]

Admit it, you don't want Georgia State back in FCS.

LMAO

[Saint3333]

OK, I'll bite...what minimums?

And where exactly does a program go that can't meet it, mindful of the rules in NCAA regarding cross-divisional status?

40 scholarship minimum and 5,000 average attendance. If you can't maintain those you are 1-AAA and wins vs. those teams don't count as Div. 1 wins for playoff selection.

[MplsBison]

OK, I'll bite...what minimums?

And where exactly does a program go that can't meet it, mindful of the rules in NCAA regarding cross-divisional status?

In regards to scholarship minimums only (yes, even at the FCS level):

If you literally can't (not you don't want to, but actually can't) provide a minimum number of scholarships to football players and your school has a Division I athletics department, then your school should be forced to drop football as a varsity sports. Playing the game at the varsity level is not a right, it's a privilege.

You're welcome to have a club team.

[MplsBison]

arkstfan on csnbbs had a great rundown on this:

There are two sets of numbers.

The publicly available attendance numbers on the NCAA website are from the box scores the schools send in as part of the stats record keeping. Those numbers have absolutely no meaning for FBS purposes. Those numbers could be tickets distributed, turnstile count, or the SID looking out the press box window and writing down the number that looks "about right".

A second set of numbers is submitted in February. It is the certified count and those are the numbers that matter.

Those numbers are:
1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
2. Students admitted for free if they pay student fee for athletics.
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.
4. Tickets purchased by a booster club are excluded from the count. One institution entering CUSA this year is currently on attendance probation for another 7 years or so because of an accounting error (or more correctly someone keeping the books in a proper accounting manner). The school had previously counted donations to the booster club like this. Donor gives $100, they treated it as the purchase of $100 in tickets, the tickets were then "donated" to the booster club. One year they marked those down in the books as a donation of $100 and then the booster club purchased the tickets. That made those previously counted tickets not count because they were reflected (accurately) as a donation followed by a booster club purchase. The new person who screwed that up was counseled and they've had no problems since.

Accounting matters. Let's say your cheap ticket is $20 and top ticket is $300. You do a bulk deal with a local business. They spend $2000 for 400 tickets. That's an effective price of $5. None of the 400 count. Restructure it so they receive 200 tickets at $10 and 200 free. If 200 get used you can count 200. Or you write it up as 133 tickets at $15 and 267 comped. You can count the 133 whether or not they are used.

Box score numbers and the certified count don't often match up well. For example several years back the Kansas City Star found that the box score counts for Kansas were nearly double the certified count. One of the Tampa/St. Pete papers found a similar gap at USF around the time they moving up. Nearly 20 years ago Arkansas State had a promotion with a local business to sell super discounted tickets for a big local game. The marketing director who put it together had the fee from the business deposited in the marketing account (more glory!) rather than paid to the Central Box Office. Because of how that was done, just over 16,000 of a crowd of 30,000 was countable.


http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=643389&pid=9576012#pid9576012

Excellent post. Thanks

[MplsBison]

There shouldn't be any attendance minimums (in any meaning of the word, certified, box score, whatever) allowed as a requirement for any level of play in the NCAA, in any sport.

Scholarship minimums, on the other hand, should be mandatory for the Division I level of play.

[DFW HOYA]

40 scholarship minimum and 5,000 average attendance. If you can't maintain those you are 1-AAA and wins vs. those teams don't count as Div. 1 wins for playoff selection.

That's 42 of 121 schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Jesus man, he said there are loopholes, he didn't say he liked them or supported them.

It's advertising money there is no question about that but the Athletic Dept.'s doing it are taking the hit somewhere because there isn't more money for the program by doing it that way. If those teams want to put on the facade they are something when it's pretty visible they are not then why care?

I'd rather see them stay there than be back in FCS anyway it's just gonna make FCS look like it's a dumping ground for lackluster FBS programs. Rather have the schools that want to be here and cherish the structure fo this division.

The problem is this propped-up support of FBS programs that shouldn't really be FBS is part of the issue the "Big 5" have with their subdivision. Michigan doesn't have to have a corporate giveaway to stay FBS, and they look at a school like Eastern Michigan and say, "remind me, why are we in the same football subdivision again?"

I found it very interesting that the NCAA made a press release and included this in there. It's as if they were saying that these rules were fudged in the past, but now, we're getting serious about it. And if the Big 5 are indeed serious about this (and not just with UMass and USA), you'll either see the Sun Belt and MAC back down in FCS, or maybe even see many (or all) of them drop their football programs.

I feel there needs to be some sort of mechanism for schools to move up and down from FCS to FBS, and FBS to FCS, cleanly, not effectively tied to grandfathered FBS conference membership the way it is today. People might be surprised at this but I'm not so much against FCS schools going FBS but by the way it's done, by selling decades-old rivalries down the river and settling in a zombie conference, fully expecting to "move out in, oh, 10 years, because were not Louisiana-Monroe, Eastern Michigan or FIU, we're the next Boise State!"

If a pro league operated in this way, they'd be mocked by everybody. Imagine if Ipswich town's place the EPL was guaranteed because, in 1977, they were in the top league at the time. They'd leaguemates with Man U, Man City and Chelsea, with a 44 million pound price tag for the entire franchise, or the equivalent of one or two of Man City's players. Competitiveness would become a joke in the EPL. Meanwhile, other Ipswich Town clubs are being added to the EPL, and none are taken away.

[MplsBison]

That's 42 of 121 schools.

How about for no attendance minimum but 40 scholarships minimum. Should be most of the sub-division excluding the Ivy's, Pioneer and maybe some of the lower end NEC schools.

The Pioneer and Ivy's should be playing among themselves without the NCAA logo on their uniforms anyway. It wouldn't really change anything the Ivy's do other than a few non-conference games a year.

[MplsBison]

The problem is this propped-up support of FBS programs that shouldn't really be FBS is part of the issue the "Big 5" have with their subdivision. Michigan doesn't have to have a corporate giveaway to stay FBS, and they look at a school like Eastern Michigan and say, "remind me, why are we in the same football subdivision again?"

I found it very interesting that the NCAA made a press release and included this in there. It's as if they were saying that these rules were fudged in the past, but now, we're getting serious about it. And if the Big 5 are indeed serious about this (and not just with UMass and USA), you'll either see the Sun Belt and MAC back down in FCS, or maybe even see many (or all) of them drop their football programs.

I feel there needs to be some sort of mechanism for schools to move up and down from FCS to FBS, and FBS to FCS, cleanly, not effectively tied to grandfathered FBS conference membership the way it is today. People might be surprised at this but I'm not so much against FCS schools going FBS but by the way it's done, by selling decades-old rivalries down the river and settling in a zombie conference, fully expecting to "move out in, oh, 10 years, because were not Louisiana-Monroe, Eastern Michigan or FIU, we're the next Boise State!"

If a pro league operated in this way, they'd be mocked by everybody. Imagine if Ipswich town's place the EPL was guaranteed because, in 1977, they were in the top league at the time. They'd leaguemates with Man U, Man City and Chelsea, with a 44 million pound price tag for the entire franchise, or the equivalent of one or two of Man City's players. Competitiveness would become a joke in the EPL. Meanwhile, other Ipswich Town clubs are being added to the EPL, and none are taken away.

"Shouldn't really be FBS".

If you can afford to provide a minimum 90% of 85 scholarships to your players - that's what FBS is. End


Doesn't matter if the students are having to pay that cost because the program doesn't bring in (enough) revenue. They chose to do that. Nothing more can be said about it. End

You don't get to decide who's FBS or not with false criteria just because you hate FBS football.

[Sandlapper Spike]

That's 42 of 121 schools.

Well, if you're one of the 42 at least making the playoffs would be a lot easier...

[bkrownd]

The Gillette deal is one of the most idiotic decisions I've seen a university make.

Well, in what way other than "college football gameday atmosphere"? My impression was that the window on moving to FBS was closing, and they got a sweetheart deal from Private Money to spend a few years at Gillette. When that fell together, it was an easy choice for the administration. The move "upscale" to an NFL stadium was supposed to increase the visibility and attractiveness of the program to help the move, not satisfy college football purists. (like myself, grumble, grumble) Unfortunately this also happened a the same time the program was sinking fast. 5-10 years ago the team would have been very competitive and the numbers would have been very different. If the team remains uncompetitive the move will look like a flop, but it wasn't because of Gillette.

(Reminds me of the dark years at Minnesota which created the stigma of bad memories that the Metrodome could never shake)

[SpiritCymbal]

Correct. In basketball, DePaul got embarrassed by this in 2012-13. Their announced attendance average was 7,900, but an audit of TicketMaster scans entering the arena indicated the average was just over 2,900 a game.

It's possible South Alabama was following a similar tactic.

It's not just USA. 99.9% of sports organizations uses this way to report attendance from college to professional.

[MplsBison]

Well, in what way other than "college football gameday atmosphere"? My impression was that the window on moving to FBS was closing, and they got a sweetheart deal from Private Money to spend a few years at Gillette. When that fell together, it was an easy choice for the administration. The move "upscale" to an NFL stadium was supposed to increase the visibility and attractiveness of the program to help the move, not satisfy college football purists. (like myself, grumble, grumble) Unfortunately this also happened a the same time the program was sinking fast. 5-10 years ago the team would have been very competitive and the numbers would have been very different. If the team remains uncompetitive the move will look like a flop, but it wasn't because of Gillette.

(Reminds me of the dark years at Minnesota which created the stigma of bad memories that the Metrodome could never shake)

Very reasonable post.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Don't let anyone tell you that attendance has anything to do with FBS. It never has and never will, if Eastern Michigan is any indication.

[pike51]

40 scholarship minimum and 5,000 average attendance. If you can't maintain those you are 1-AAA and wins vs. those teams don't count as Div. 1 wins for playoff selection.

Just how many divisions do you want to see? D1, D1AA, D1AAA? What's next? D2, D2AA? The system is already jacked up with FBS, FCS, D2, D3 and then throw in NAIA D1 and D2. They need to simplify, not complicate.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Very reasonable post.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Don't let anyone tell you that attendance has anything to do with FBS. It never has and never will, if Eastern Michigan is any indication.

Well if you want to be EMU that's fine. A football program is really for the alums, community and students to support. If there's no support then what is really the point? Players aren't going to come to UMass for the thrill of playing in front of 55k empty seats.

[pike51]

Very reasonable post.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Don't let anyone tell you that attendance has anything to do with FBS. It never has and never will, if Eastern Michigan is any indication.

From what I understand, Eastern Michigan has a deal worked out with someone (Pepsi I think) that allows Pepsi to be the beverage provider at all athletic functions in exchange for a guaranteed purchase each year of enough tickets to maintain the minimum sales requirements.

Now, the NCAA may finally be looking to eliminate these types of loopholes, but someone will always find a way to beat the system.

[bkrownd]

Well if you want to be EMU that's fine. A football program is really for the alums, community and students to support. If there's no support then what is really the point? Players aren't going to come to UMass for the thrill of playing in front of 55k empty seats.

To the administration football is about $$$$ and prestige...because with the money football costs in this world that's just the way it has to be. Whoever ponies up the money for full price tickets is the most important customer. Students are not paying customers in that sense, and few football-interested alums live in Hampshire County. They looked towards Boston for very obvious reasons.

As far as "55k empty seats", you can't assume attendance was automatically going to be bad. Attendance of 20-25k in Gillette looks much better to the casual observer than McGuirk packed to capacity on any day. That's what they were hoping for. Remember, it was supposed to be a temporary deal. It makes sense from the administration's point of view - the problem is the program has failed to deliver an attractive product on the field.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As far as "55k empty seats", you can't assume attendance was automatically going to be bad. Attendance of 20-25k in Gillette looks much better to the casual observer than McGuirk packed to capacity on any day. That's what they were hoping for.

Ironically, they got 20-25K for "event games" against an FCS foe - UNH - but then saw attendance crater when they squared off against MAC teams.

There are also two huge factors to UMass' struggles: 1) Temple's unexpected all-sports membership in the AAC, and 2) UConn's unwillingness to play UMass in Foxboro. Either would have promised at least a few more fans at Foxboro.

[bkrownd]

not sure how Temple is relevant?

Keep in mind the MAC is also supposed to be a temporary home, in its current incarnation. Too bad the B1G 10 fixed its eyes on Rutsgers for its northeastern outpost - UMass would have been a good fit and perfect market placement. B1G 10 teams visiting Gillette? Money in the bank.

[dbackjon]

not sure how Temple is relevant?

Keep in mind the MAC is also supposed to be a temporary home, in its current incarnation. Too bad the B1G 10 fixed its eyes on Rutsgers for its northeastern outpost - UMass would have been a good fit and perfect market placement. B1G 10 teams visiting Gillette? Money in the bank.

Strike one - UMass is not AAU
Strike two - B!G will never take an FCS move up, especially right after they moved up
Strike three - Prove attendance first.

[bkrownd]

1) Well the Big 10 members helped oust Nebraska from the AAU, so obviously it really doesn't mean that much to them.

2) I wasn't saying it would happen this year.

3) I don't think visiting Big 10 teams need to "prove" that they can generate a crowd in a place like Boston. It can be assumed.

[UAalum72]

3) I don't think visiting Big 10 teams need to "prove" that they can generate a crowd in a place like Boston. It can be assumed.For Ohio St., Nebraska and Michigan. Can you assume it for Indiana, Purdue or Northwestern?

[dbackjon]

1) Well the Big 10 members helped oust Nebraska from the AAU, so obviously it really doesn't mean that much to them.

2) I wasn't saying it would happen this year.

3) I don't think visiting Big 10 teams need to "prove" that they can generate a crowd in a place like Boston. It can be assumed.

Nebraska would still have AAU membership if allowed to count ag research and med school in Omaha. They are fine

You have to get to a point where you can draw 40K-50K to get a sniff

UMass needs to draw that on their own

[bkrownd]

For Ohio St., Nebraska and Michigan. Can you assume it for Indiana, Purdue or Northwestern?

They don't all need to be home runs.

[bkrownd]

Nebraska would still have AAU membership if allowed to count ag research and med school in Omaha.


Woulda, coulda, shoulda... But they didn't count it, and some "Big 10" schools even helped vote them out of the club. Then they admitted "eh, it doesn't really matter". UMass is in a similar situation with their medical school.

UMass will never draw numbers like that without first joining a major conference. It's a chicken-and-egg problem.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

not sure how Temple is relevant?

Keep in mind the MAC is also supposed to be a temporary home, in its current incarnation. Too bad the B1G 10 fixed its eyes on Rutsgers for its northeastern outpost - UMass would have been a good fit and perfect market placement. B1G 10 teams visiting Gillette? Money in the bank.

Temple is relevant because they would at least travel some fans. Plus, there's a possible basketball carryover. I'm not saying sell out the place, but not a bad thought to be greater than 10,000.

[bkrownd]

Temple is relevant because they would at least travel some fans. Plus, there's a possible basketball carryover.

Temple fans travel? :D Sounds like wishful thinking.

We're really counting on those rabid Maine fans to pad the numbers this year. After that the home schedule is a list of "who?" "Say what?" "Huh?" "Really?" and "Seriously?" :D

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Temple fans travel? :D Sounds like wishful thinking.

We're really counting on those rabid Maine fans to pad the numbers this year. After that the home schedule is a list of "who?" "Say what?" "Huh?" "Really?" and "Seriously?" :D

I'd be interested in going to a game in Amherst. Foxboro? Not so much..

Temple took about 2k fans to Michie when I went in 2010. Only 200 or so went to Kent State that year.

[Lehigh'98]

What was the attendance for the 1998 playoff game vs Lehigh? Does anyone remember?

[bkrownd]

What was the attendance for the 1998 playoff game vs Lehigh? Does anyone remember?

The three or four of us...wait, and that guy who took the goalpost to the forehead. 5! :D

The archive says 12108, and a football-perfect 48F with 3MPH winds. (the aluminum bleachers just felt colder)

[bkrownd]

I'd be interested in going to a game in Amherst. Foxboro? Not so much..

I don't disagree. We just aren't the larger market they're trying to tap, sadly enough.

[Lehigh'98]

The three or four of us...wait, and that guy who took the goalpost to the forehead. 5! :D

The archive says 12108, and a football-perfect 48F with 3MPH winds. (the aluminum bleachers just felt colder)

My brother was there watching us play, believe he had some whiskey to stay warm along with a few other rowdies. Nice fans from what I was told..

[Saint3333]

That's 42 of 121 schools.

Only 42 schools average 5k? One I don't believe that is correct and two if it is that is very sad.

[Twentysix]

That's 42 of 121 schools.

There are 30 schools that average over 10k, where are you getting your numbers?

Ncaa.com doesn't make looking beyond the top 30 that easy anymore.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf

[Sitting Bull]

I don't disagree. We just aren't the larger market they're trying to tap, sadly enough.

Neither is State College, Blacksburg, Clemson, etc.

The problem is UMass was not ready for this. It takes a long time to develop a program and your not going to jump start it in New England by moving your games 100 miles off campus playing second tier teams from Ohio and Michigan that no one has heard of in Boston.

I disagree the UMass administration was right about this move to Foxboro. It seemed very naive to me and in the end, they used the football program like a prostitution ring to meet some ridiculous aspiration. The program looks foolish right now, not a success arm of the University.

Amherst is beautiful and the stadium is actually the perfect size for the program. The sooner they can bring the football program home and again make it an actual part of the University, the better.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My brother was there watching us play, believe he had some whiskey to stay warm along with a few other rowdies. Nice fans from what I was told..

I was very much there in the stands. Even then funny NCAA playoff accounting was the norm. McGuirk might not have been a sellout, but it was very close.

[UAalum72]

There are 30 schools that average over 10k, where are you getting your numbers?

Ncaa.com doesn't make looking beyond the top 30 that easy anymore.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf

Took some searching to find it, but http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/attendance/FCS_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

[DFW HOYA]

There are 30 schools that average over 10k, where are you getting your numbers?

Ncaa.com doesn't make looking beyond the top 30 that easy anymore.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2012.pdf

An earlier post suggested a cutoff for schools with less than 40 scholarships and below 5,000 in attendance.

On second count there are 33, not 34 schools in 2012 in that link above had less than 5,000 in attendance among a variety of scholarship levels. The eight Ivy schools all had attendance above 5,000 but without any scholarships offered.

I did not count Patriot schools averaging over 5,000 and transitioning past 40 scholarships.

So, for the record, the 33 schools under 5,000 in average attendance (schools with an asterisk have a stadium with a capacity of 5,000 or less):


Austin Peay 4,381
Bryant 2,621*
Bucknell 3,135
Butler 2,960
Campbell 3,620*
Central Conn. St. 3,773*
Charleston So. 2,295*
Colgate 3,704
Davidson 3,223
Dayton 3,213
Delaware St. 3,585
Drake 3,175
Duquesne 2,170*
Fordham 4,463
Gardner-Webb 3,607
Georgetown 2,410*
Jacksonville 2,668*
Maine 4,275
Marist 1,836*
Mississippi Valley St. 4,046
Monmouth 2,868*
Morehead St. 4,379
Morgan St. 4,005
Northern Colo. 4,248
Presbyterian 4,313
Rhode Island 4,150
Robert Morris 1,737*
Sacred Heart 2,294*
Saint Francis (PA) 1,547*
San Diego 2,916
Savannah St. 3,336
Valparaiso 2,342*
Wagner 2,352*

By Conference:

Pioneer 10
Northeast 7
Patriot 4
Big South 3
MEAC, Colonial 2
SWAC, Big Sky, Ohio Valley 1

[Saint3333]

Sounds about right to me.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Bucknell 3,135
Colgate 3,704
Fordham 4,463
Georgetown 2,410*

It's amazing that Biddle can get players to Hamilton. The program receives so little support given their success.
I would have guessed Fordham's attendance was better. They've done reasonably well in the past.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sounds about right to me.

... until you actually read what DFW is saying, that many of these schools (and two of them are CAA schools) have more than 40 scholarships.

For that matter, so is Colgate. They're a counter. Have been for some time.

[Saint3333]

Oh I understand. Let's have some standards and enforce them. Both measures are very reasonable.

[Steve81]

Neither is State College, Blacksburg, Clemson, etc.

The problem is UMass was not ready for this. It takes a long time to develop a program and your not going to jump start it in New England by moving your games 100 miles off campus playing second tier teams from Ohio and Michigan that no one has heard of in Boston.

I disagree the UMass administration was right about this move to Foxboro. It seemed very naive to me and in the end, they used the football program like a prostitution ring to meet some ridiculous aspiration. The program looks foolish right now, not a success arm of the University.

Amherst is beautiful and the stadium is actually the perfect size for the program. The sooner they can bring the football program home and again make it an actual part of the University, the better.Sitting Bull, we had no choice. Our Press box did not meet FBS standards. Our stadium does not meet current code as there are no hand railings and the aisle are 2 inches too narrow. So to get around the buidling code the new press box with visitors and home suites will be detached. Will have 3 home games on campus soon and the team will improve. It all will take time seeing where Morris left us, will almost no recruiting. Heard it will be 2015 until we have ar at full roster limits. The following phote is from the Springfield Republican (John Suchocki, The Republican)
17985

[Twentysix]

An earlier post suggested a cutoff for schools with less than 40 scholarships and below 5,000 in attendance.

On second count there are 33, not 34 schools in 2012 in that link above had less than 5,000 in attendance among a variety of scholarship levels. The eight Ivy schools all had attendance above 5,000 but without any scholarships offered.

I did not count Patriot schools averaging over 5,000 and transitioning past 40 scholarships.

So, for the record, the 33 schools under 5,000 in average attendance (schools with an asterisk have a stadium with a capacity of 5,000 or less):


Austin Peay 4,381
Bryant 2,621*
Bucknell 3,135
Butler 2,960
Campbell 3,620*
Central Conn. St. 3,773*
Charleston So. 2,295*
Colgate 3,704
Davidson 3,223
Dayton 3,213
Delaware St. 3,585
Drake 3,175
Duquesne 2,170*
Fordham 4,463
Gardner-Webb 3,607
Georgetown 2,410*
Jacksonville 2,668*
Maine 4,275
Marist 1,836*
Mississippi Valley St. 4,046
Monmouth 2,868*
Morehead St. 4,379
Morgan St. 4,005
Northern Colo. 4,248
Presbyterian 4,313
Rhode Island 4,150
Robert Morris 1,737*
Sacred Heart 2,294*
Saint Francis (PA) 1,547*
San Diego 2,916
Savannah St. 3,336
Valparaiso 2,342*
Wagner 2,352*

By Conference:

Pioneer 10
Northeast 7
Patriot 4
Big South 3
MEAC, Colonial 2
SWAC, Big Sky, Ohio Valley 1

With the posts you responded too and the way you responded, I read your intial post as if there were only 34 schools that averaged ATLEAST 5,000 which I found incredibly hard to believe. 87 or 2/3 of the division averaging over 5,000 is much easier to believe.