Man, I want a multi BILLIONAIRE to grad from NDSU

[IBleedYellow]

Hell, or I could try it. :D


http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/30256052-75/football-oregon-center-university-facility.html.csp

[Professor Chaos]

If I was a 5 star recruit the barber shop in the practice facility would definitely sell me on choosing Oregon...

[Laker]

I like Oregon less and less with every story that I read about them. Oh well, I always liked Oregon State better than them anyway..........

[MplsBison]

I mean.....damn.

NFL teams don't have it that good.


Doesn't that say something? Something...kind've odd? How is it that a few college teams, bringing in far less money than even the bottom NFL team does, find it necessary to spend on facilities so incredibly lavish so as to easily eclipse anything the NFL has?


I guess because facilities are one of the few things the NCAA *doesn't* regulate in college football. The NFL teams have staffs (coaching and support) that make college team staff's laughable, for example.

[Bisonoline]

It helps when the school doesnt have to take money out of their own pocket.

[unknown3]

I don't think there's a college football fan alive that would have anything negative to say if this were their university.

[paward]

That shick just sick, plain ole fashioned shick. Sorry I used wrong word. I meant new fashion schick.

[PAllen]

I've always been far from against football/athletic specific facilities, but that thing is just over the top. I wonder what would happen if schools were required to grant access to these facilities to the general student population if they weren't actively being used for a specific team activity? I'm not saying we should go there. In fact, I'm shocked at myself for even thinking of it, but this crap is just too much. Not only does the kid not have to go to class (I've known more than a few "student athletes" at Maryland who never went to class and took their written finals while sitting chatting with a proctor, you can't tell me Oregon is any different), he doesn't even have to leave the training facility to get his haircut! Why don't they just start a professional league and be done with it. It's not like any of the recruits who are swayed by this type of facility are looking to be part of the student body.

[344Johnson]

If I was a 5 star recruit the barber shop in the practice facility would definitely sell me on choosing Oregon...

If I was a 5-star recruit, I'd end up at NDSU.....or Notre Dame.

This facility makes me so jealous of Oregon that I will never wish well upon their program....not that I ever did.

[BluBengal07]

It helps when the school doesnt have to take money out of their own pocket.

it makes a big difference.

[Smitty]

I saw this story on Yahoo the other day. It is quite impressive whether you like Oregon or not.

I can't believe they have their own WR room and buffet...

[Vitojr130]

Time to step up your game, Doug Burgum. xlolx

But really, who is NDSU's wealthiest graduate? Is there any way to find out? I am actually quite interested in finding out.

[WH49er]

If you don't like it, then don't buy Nike.

[Hammerhead]

It should also be noted that Phil Knight has made donations to Oregon that aren't related to athletics including $27 million for a library expansion/renovation, enough money to have a new building at the law school named after his father, and an endowment for more than 2 dozen professorships.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Time to step up your game, Doug Burgum. xlolx

But really, who is NDSU's wealthiest graduate? Is there any way to find out? I am actually quite interested in finding out.

I think it has to be the Wallgreen's guy. Bernauer, unless there's an oil guy out there somewhere.

[Grizalltheway]

It should also be noted that Phil Knight has made donations to Oregon that aren't related to athletics including $27 million for a library expansion/renovation, enough money to have a new building at the law school named after his father, and an endowment for more than 2 dozen professorships.

Yeah, but it's much easier to criticize perceived negatives than it is to praise definite positives.xcoffeex

[MplsBison]

Time to step up your game, Doug Burgum. xlolx

But really, who is NDSU's wealthiest graduate? Is there any way to find out? I am actually quite interested in finding out.

There are probably a handful of millionaires that hold a degree from NDSU (or NDAC), but I would wager for the most part NDSU grads are middle class. Teaching, nursing, pharmacy, agriculture, hard science and engineering aren't exactly wealthy careers (although pharmacy is a great gig if you can do it and don't mind working retail hours).

You need a professional degree along with getting into upper management or starting your own firm/business to really make it rich. NDSU's business school has only been around since...not that long ago I believe (could be wrong). No professional degrees, unless they have an MBA now.

[Bisonator]

Time to step up your game, Doug Burgum. xlolx

But really, who is NDSU's wealthiest graduate? Is there any way to find out? I am actually quite interested in finding out.

Gary Tharaldson took some grad classes at NDSU. That's gotta be worth a couple mil! xlolx

Ron Offut got an honorary doctorate. Does that count as an alum? :D

[344Johnson]

There are probably a handful of millionaires that hold a degree from NDSU (or NDAC), but I would wager for the most part NDSU grads are middle class. Teaching, nursing, pharmacy, agriculture, hard science and engineering aren't exactly wealthy careers (although pharmacy is a great gig if you can do it and don't mind working retail hours).

You need a professional degree along with getting into upper management or starting your own firm/business to really make it rich. NDSU's business school has only been around since...not that long ago I believe (could be wrong). No professional degrees, unless they have an MBA now.

Papa344 has some sort of business degree from NDSU circa 1988 I believe.

[MplsBison]

Papa344 has some sort of business degree from NDSU circa 1988 I believe.

Fair enough, but a bachelor's degree from a business school is not a professional degree and unlikely to lead to a wealthy career in of itself without further education.

Just checked, it appears NDSU's B-school does offer MBA and MAcc. That's a great start! Give it 20-30 years for some of these kids to "make it".

[344Johnson]

Fair enough, but a bachelor's degree from a business school is not a professional degree and unlikely to lead to a wealthy career in of itself without further education.

I believe you can get a masters from NDSU in business.

[MplsBison]

I believe you can get a masters from NDSU in business.

Yeah sorry, I just edited my post.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I believe you can get a masters from NDSU in business.

Correct. You can get both an MBA and a Masters of Accountancy from NDSU.

[MplsBison]

Correct. You can get both an MBA and a Masters of Accountancy from NDSU.

I don't think a MAcc is a professional degree (I'm thinking along the lines of getting a PhD in Finance), but the MBA is great.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I don't think a MAcc is a professional degree (I'm thinking along the lines of getting a PhD in Finance), but the MBA is great.

The MAcc is probably overkill for your average CPA. The MBA is mostly a "get ahead" degree.

[MplsBison]

The MAcc is probably overkill for your average CPA. The MBA is mostly a "get ahead" degree.

Yes, exactly. While the MBA may not necessarily be a strict professional degree, I would consider it a necessity for upper management (executive particularly).

Or perhaps one of those newfangled "Master of Engineering Management" thingy's or the like.

[AppChicago]

I don't think there's a college football fan alive that would have anything negative to say if this were their university.

You're right... to a point. If it were my school, I would probably be thrilled at the recruiting advantage, but still pretty grossed out by the ostentation. A lot of those details (Ferrari leather, Brazilian hardwoods, etc.) serve no remotely practical purpose, really. I mean, like everyone else said, it's Knight's money, so good for him for giving it in a way that makes him feel good. I can just think of a lot of other uses for the millions that went into the gaudy flourishes.

[CopperCat]

I wonder what Oregons graduation rate is..........I guarantee all the excess crap doesn't help it.

Thank you for sponsoring a generation of spoiled worthless college dropouts Phil Knight.

[clenz]

According to a Sporting News article from last October on the graduation rate of the top 25 ranked teams it was 65 percent. Which was about what the average percent was. Oklahoma was at 47 fwiw. Also, that graduation rate puts them 4th in the Pac12

That also means they are 132nd in all of D1 (fcs and fbs) and more or less right on the average graduation rate for all of D1 football.

If you take the major academic conferences (Patriot, Pioneer, Ivy) the average drops...

I believe that graduation rate is based on a 4 year turn around....

According to US News the 4 year graduation rate for the rest of the university? 41


Looks like the football program is keeping kids in school.



Butt hurt is strong

quando omni flunkus moritati

[clenz]

According to the latest APR Oregon's APR is 951...well a head of academic focused schools like Cal.

[MSUBobcat]

I don't think a MAcc is a professional degree (I'm thinking along the lines of getting a PhD in Finance), but the MBA is great.


The MAcc is probably overkill for your average CPA. The MBA is mostly a "get ahead" degree.

Umm, as a graduate of a school whose master's program for accountancy was #1 in the nation the year I entered the MPac (based on 1st attempt pass rates on the CPA exam) and a licensed CPA, I can attest that a master's degree in accounting IS NOT overkill for a CPA, due to the requirement of having at least 150 credits to even sit for the exam (since 2003). Since a bachelor's degree is 120 credits, the master's degree is not only an easy way to meet the criteria, but also better prepare yourself for what is often considered the most difficult PROFESSIONAL licensing exam.

Agreeing with Mpls is usually damaging to your reputation and one should research a little and tread lightly before doing so....

[MplsBison]

Umm, as a graduate of a school whose master's program for accountancy was #1 in the nation the year I entered the MPac (based on 1st attempt pass rates on the CPA exam) and a licensed CPA, I can attest that a master's degree in accounting IS NOT overkill for a CPA, due to the requirement of having at least 150 credits to even sit for the exam (since 2003). Since a bachelor's degree is 120 credits, the master's degree is not only an easy way to meet the criteria, but also better prepare yourself for what is often considered the most difficult PROFESSIONAL licensing exam.

Agreeing with Mpls is usually damaging to your reputation and one should research a little and tread lightly before doing so....

That doesn't prove the school is the best, just that its students are the most motivated to pass the licensing test. :D So which school was it? http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/accounting-rankings Obviously not Montana St.



And his bolded quote really had nothing to do with my boldedquote, so don't try linking that to me.


Thanks for the info about accounting. If the CPA requires 150 credits (which..why would they?) and if a BS in Acc. really only is 120 credits (seems reasonable compared to other BS degrees) then it seems automatic that every BSAcc student would automatically enroll in a MAcc or MPacc program as basically just a continuation of their Bachelor's coursework.


My point was only to highlight the difference between "advanced" degrees of a purely academic nature vs. a professional nature.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Umm, as a graduate of a school whose master's program for accountancy was #1 in the nation the year I entered the MPac (based on 1st attempt pass rates on the CPA exam) and a licensed CPA, I can attest that a master's degree in accounting IS NOT overkill for a CPA, due to the requirement of having at least 150 credits to even sit for the exam (since 2003). Since a bachelor's degree is 120 credits, the master's degree is not only an easy way to meet the criteria, but also better prepare yourself for what is often considered the most difficult PROFESSIONAL licensing exam.


Agreeing with Mpls is usually damaging to your reputation and one should research a little and tread lightly before doing so....

Lighten up Francis....


Funny, my ex-girlfriend whom I hate and went to MSU got a CPA with a Bachelors degree. I think with a solid minor you could get close to 150 credits.

[MSUBobcat]

That doesn't prove the school is the best, just that its students are the most motivated to pass the licensing test. :D So which school was it? http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-business-schools/accounting-rankings Obviously not Montana St.



And his bolded quote really had nothing to do with my boldedquote, so don't try linking that to me.


Thanks for the info about accounting. If the CPA requires 150 credits (which..why would they?) and if a BS in Acc. really only is 120 credits (seems reasonable compared to other BS degrees) then it seems automatic that every BSAcc student would automatically enroll in a MAcc or MPacc program as basically just a continuation of their Bachelor's coursework.


My point was only to highlight the difference between "advanced" degrees of a purely academic nature vs. a professional nature.

Never said my school was the best. When I was there though, MSU ranked in the top 10 in pass rates, which seems like a pretty quantifiable way to rank schools each other since the test is uniform for all applicants, in 17 of the previous 21 years. Not sure what criteria the site you referenced used as criteria (didn't pay to read it, but seems like a combination of factors, including GMAT scores but not CPA test info, which is surprising when ranking accounting schools and not management schools). Anyways.... My point is that if you are wishing for a "billionaire" alum, a master's degree from a consistently highly ranked accounting program isn't a bad way to kickstart a career that ends with a CFO or CEO position at a major corporation.

Agreed on the bolded statement. A master's in fine arts is definitely different than a master's in accounting. Glad we found some common ground.


Lighten up Francis....


Funny, my ex-girlfriend whom I hate and went to MSU got a CPA with a Bachelors degree. I think with a solid minor you could get close to 150 credits.

Reread my comment. Never once said a master's in accounting is required to sit for the exam. I said since an additional 30 credits is required it is an easy way to meet the criteria while also preparing for the rigorous CPA test. In addition, you get to put BS and Master's in accounting on your resume rather than BS in accounting with a minor in communication or whatever.

[CopperCat]

According to a Sporting News article from last October on the graduation rate of the top 25 ranked teams it was 65 percent. Which was about what the average percent was. Oklahoma was at 47 fwiw. Also, that graduation rate puts them 4th in the Pac12

That also means they are 132nd in all of D1 (fcs and fbs) and more or less right on the average graduation rate for all of D1 football.

If you take the major academic conferences (Patriot, Pioneer, Ivy) the average drops...

I believe that graduation rate is based on a 4 year turn around....

According to US News the 4 year graduation rate for the rest of the university? 41


Looks like the football program is keeping kids in school.



Butt hurt is strong

quando omni flunkus moritati

Butt hurt? Ok, say what you will. Maybe I'm just was of those people that thinks going to college isn't about making sports the center of the university system.

[clenz]

Oregons student facilities would be much worse off if it was not for Knight.

The success of the athletic programs brings in a ton of money across the university, add well as better students as there is a lot if research that indicates there is a strong correlation

quando omni flunkus moritati

[AmsterBison]

All I see is diminishing returns... it's getting to the point where a football program can spend $100 million and really not stand out. The Big 5 are set for a stupendous explosion of spending and excess that will most likely bring their whole circus tent down on top of them.

Anyway, if I had a billion to give, why would I spend $400 million on football facilities just to keep up with the Big 5? For a fraction of that, I could build the nicest college computer lab in the world and have millions left over to recruit the brightest students to a new 'entrepreneurial computer science' program" and help create new millionaires. Or maybe start a center for the engineers, computer science guys, and fine art guys to corroborate on projects.

BTW, don't even bother quoting APR and crap like that - that's something that the big conferences want because it's cheap PR and they can game the ****** out of it. They could keep a sock puppet eligible.

[clenz]

Um...Knight did donate to give Oregon one of the nicest law school buildings there is.

[Bisonator]

Just wait till they start paying players. It's gonna get ugly fast! xeekx

[AmsterBison]

Um...Knight did donate to give Oregon one of the nicest law school buildings there is.

So what? That doesn't change the fact that schools are going to have to spend $100 million every couple years to get a tiny advantage in recruiting football players.

Heck, $100 million is more than the state of North Dakota has spent on new buildings at NDSU since the first brick was laid. A person could make a huge difference to a lot of schools with a $100 million. So on one hand, you could buy you school a tiny and temporary recruiting advantage that does next to nothing to advance the university's primary purpose versus making a huge difference for something that, you know, has a hell of a lot more to do with the reason universities exist in the first place. At some point, people are going to do the math. Moreover, I believe that the big conferences are going to reach such heights of excess that they bring Big Time College Football down completely.

[MplsBison]

Or the NCAA could do something reasonable - you know like start enforcing ceilings on spending for coaching salaries and facilities.

That is, if the conferences allow it.

[MplsBison]

Never said my school was the best. When I was there though, MSU ranked in the top 10 in pass rates, which seems like a pretty quantifiable way to rank schools each other since the test is uniform for all applicants, in 17 of the previous 21 years. Not sure what criteria the site you referenced used as criteria (didn't pay to read it, but seems like a combination of factors, including GMAT scores but not CPA test info, which is surprising when ranking accounting schools and not management schools). Anyways.... My point is that if you are wishing for a "billionaire" alum, a master's degree from a consistently highly ranked accounting program isn't a bad way to kickstart a career that ends with a CFO or CEO position at a major corporation.

Agreed on the bolded statement. A master's in fine arts is definitely different than a master's in accounting. Glad we found some common ground.



Reread my comment. Never once said a master's in accounting is required to sit for the exam. I said since an additional 30 credits is required it is an easy way to meet the criteria while also preparing for the rigorous CPA test. In addition, you get to put BS and Master's in accounting on your resume rather than BS in accounting with a minor in communication or whatever.

No need to get into an argument over it, but I just don't see pass rate alone being a relevant statistic without further boundaries on minimum number of students who take the test.

It's like ERA. Sure, I can say I have a 0.5 ERA...after I've only pitched 2 innings. That doesn't count.

[MplsBison]

All I see is diminishing returns... it's getting to the point where a football program can spend $100 million and really not stand out. The Big 5 are set for a stupendous explosion of spending and excess that will most likely bring their whole circus tent down on top of them.

Anyway, if I had a billion to give, why would I spend $400 million on football facilities just to keep up with the Big 5? For a fraction of that, I could build the nicest college computer lab in the world and have millions left over to recruit the brightest students to a new 'entrepreneurial computer science' program" and help create new millionaires. Or maybe start a center for the engineers, computer science guys, and fine art guys to corroborate on projects.

BTW, don't even bother quoting APR and crap like that - that's something that the big conferences want because it's cheap PR and they can game the ****** out of it. They could keep a sock puppet eligible.

I hear your sentiment.


Here's the thing with this Oregon facility: for the first time that I recall looking at pictures of a new facility.....it struck me as emphasizing "flash" over "function". Now, of course that's Oregon's nature to a T. But, for example when you look at the lockers...for crying out loud. It's like a sci-fi movie. You can't tell me those "help" somehow. It's all for the look.

That, to me, is the point where you step back and say "ok guys..this is getting ridiculous. It's one thing to build an end zone facility that is highly functional and beneficial to the team and recruiting, it's another thing to build something that looks like a piece of public artwork."

[Grizalltheway]

Or the NCAA could do something reasonable - you know like start enforcing ceilings on spending for coaching salaries and facilities.

That is, if the conferences allow it.


That's about as likely to happen as you admitting you're wrong about something.

[MplsBison]

That's about as likely to happen as you admitting you're wrong about something.

I always do that. I'm just very infrequently wrong.

[MSUBobcat]

I always do that. I'm just very infrequently wrong.

xrotatehxxrotatehxxrotatehxxlmaoxxlmaox Oh...my....f'in......god. That is either the funniest thing I've ever heard... or you are seriously demented and need not only professional help but to be locked up in a padded room. xnodxxnodxxnodx

[lionsrking2]

We have a billionaire alumnus, who was our Alumnus of the Year in 2009 ... haven't seen it translate into a large donation yet, but hopefully at some point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Wang
http://www.forbes.com/profile/roger-wang/

[344Johnson]

No need to get into an argument over it, but I just don't see pass rate alone being a relevant statistic without further boundaries on minimum number of students who take the test.

It's like ERA. Sure, I can say I have a 0.5 ERA...after I've only pitched 2 innings. That doesn't count.

After 2 innings I dont think it is possible to have a .5 ERA. Unless you gave up.....like an 1/8 of a run?

[MSUBobcat]

After 2 innings I dont think it is possible to have a .5 ERA. Unless you gave up.....like an 1/8 of a run?

+1. Thinking the same thing but didn't feel like carrying it any further.

[clenz]

To get to an ERA of .5 you have to pitch 18 innings giving up just 1 earned run.

Not 17 2/3 innings....18 full innings

Lowest possible ERA after 2 innings, having given up a run, is 4.5

[Bisonator]

To get to an ERA of .5 you have to pitch 18 innings giving up just 1 earned run.

Not 17 2/3 innings....18 full innings

Lowest possible ERA after 2 innings, having given up a run, is 4.5

Math, among everything else, has never been Mpls strong suit! xlolx

[clenz]

Math, among everything else, has never been Mpls strong suit! xlolx

Not even hard math...era is based on 9 innings pitched no matter how many you pitched..

Pretty easy to calculate that of your allow 1 run in the first inning you can't allow another for your next 8 to have even a1era

quando omni flunkus moritati

[Bisonoline]

I always do that. I'm just very infrequently wrong.

In your mind that is.

[Southern Bison]

I always do that. I'm just very infrequently wrong.

I rise to nominate this post as "Idiotic Post of the Year"...and we haven't even reached opening day!! Do I hear a seconding of the nomination?

[BisonFan02]

I rise to nominate this post as "Idiotic Post of the Year"...and we haven't even reached opening day!! Do I hear a seconding of the nomination?

Meh, it's early yet and chattown is still around.

[MSUBobcat]

I rise to nominate this post as "Idiotic Post of the Year"...and we haven't even reached opening day!! Do I hear a seconding of the nomination?

I laughed so hard I fell out of a COUCH at that post. Definite second!

[Bisonoline]

I rise to nominate this post as "Idiotic Post of the Year"...and we haven't even reached opening day!! Do I hear a seconding of the nomination?

Ah come on---hes been more idiotic than that.

[MplsBison]

After 2 innings I dont think it is possible to have a .5 ERA. Unless you gave up.....like an 1/8 of a run?

Allow me to admit my mistake! I was wrong.

I did not know that ERA is calculated as number of earned runs divided by number of innings pitched then multiplied by nine.


Average usually implies a simple ratio. It appears this is one of those cases where the colloquial acronym completely omits part of the description that is critical to the actual meaning. The acronym really should be "ERAp9", as in Earned Run Average per 9 innings pitched.

Another example is air conditioner ratings, which are simply labeled as "BTU" but in fact the actual rating is BTU per hour.


Thanks for the correction! I love learning new information.

[MplsBison]

Math, among everything else, has never been Mpls strong suit! xlolx

1 earned run in 2 innings pitched comes to 0.5 earned runs per inning pitched.

Not my fault that someone decided that the convention should be to multiple it by nine but not include that information in the acronym.

[MplsBison]

Point being, Montana St is no where even close to having a top accountancy program in the country.

Let's just put that to rest right now. I don't care how many years in a row a handful of sheep farmers' sons and daughters pass the CPA licensing test each year.

[MSUBobcat]

Point being, Montana St is no where even close to having a top accountancy program in the country.

Let's just put that to rest right now. I don't care how many years in a row a handful of sheep farmers' sons and daughters pass the CPA licensing test each year.

Oh wise one, what would you rather use to compare accounting programs? Seems to me a uniform, nationwide test covering all of the knowledge acquired over the course of 4 or 5 years of higher education is a pretty quantifiable way to rank schools. So please enlighten me, master of all there is to know. What is a better way to rate the quality of one's education?

Sorry for the thread hijack, Bison fans. Last response to MPLS as there's no point in arguing with such a simple-minded child.

[MplsBison]

Oh wise one, what would you rather use to compare accounting programs? Seems to me a uniform, nationwide test covering all of the knowledge acquired over the course of 4 or 5 years of higher education is a pretty quantifiable way to rank schools. So please enlighten me, master of all there is to know. What is a better way to rate the quality of one's education?

Sorry for the thread hijack, Bison fans. Last response to MPLS as there's no point in arguing with such a simple-minded child.

OK smart guy, here you go: rank them on the total number of BAcc's and MAcc's from each school who have passed the test in the last five years.


Guessing Montana St would be somewhere down around by NDSU, UND, University of St. Thomas here in the cities, etc.

[Vitojr130]

OK smart guy, here you go: rank them on the total number of BAcc's and MAcc's from each school who have passed the test in the last five years.


Guessing Montana St would be somewhere down around by NDSU, UND, University of St. Thomas here in the cities, etc.

Mpls, if there was anyone here who was owed facts and logic to back presented facts up, it isn't you.

[geaux_sioux]

I'm not sure if any living UND alumnus has cracked the billionaire ranks yet but we have quite a few above or around 100M.

[Bisonoline]

Mpls, if there was anyone here who was owed facts and logic to back presented facts up, it isn't you.

You have to wonder if there is anything that prick wont argue over?

[MplsBison]

Mpls, if there was anyone here who was owed facts and logic to back presented facts up, it isn't you.

You apparently misunderstood. I was not asking for him to research and present data from the past five years.

But thanks for that comment.

[MplsBison]

You have to wonder if there is anything that prick wont argue over?

It's a message board.

If you're not arguing then you're wasting a perfectly good message board.

[Vitojr130]

You apparently misunderstood. I was not asking for him to research and present data from the past five years.
But thanks for that comment.

Please see:


OK smart guy, here you go: rank them on the total number of BAcc's and MAcc's from each school who have passed the test in the last five years.
Guessing Montana St would be somewhere down around by NDSU, UND, University of St. Thomas here in the cities, etc.

If that does not imply that you want him to go out, find data on the schools and their graduates who pass the tests in the last five years, and present it to you, then I must be going insane. However, that is not the case. There's a difference between debating and arguing and it is a fine line. However, you can't even accomplish to do either. So, in your words, thanks for that comment.

Oh, and I never got to thank you for providing my signature. It always gives me a good laugh when I log on here and post. xlolx