The Ivies Abandon Lafayette College

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette College has published its 2013 Media Guide - including future schedules. In the past, Lafayette typically played 3-5 Ivy League opponents each season. That appears to have come to an abrupt end.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/lafa/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/2013LCFBMG.pdf

Here are the Pards' future schedules:

2014
SEPTEMBER
6 at Sacred Heart
13 ROBERT MORRIS
20 at William & Mary
27 WAGNER
OCTOBER
4 at Fordham
11 GEORGETOWN
18 at Harvard
25 HOLY CROSS
NOVEMBER
1 at Bucknell
8 at Colgate
15 Bye
22 LEHIGH (Yankee Stadium)

2015
SEPTEMBER
5 William& Mary
12 at Delaware
19 PRINCETON
26 at Wagner
OCTOBER
3 FORDHAM
10 at Georgetown
17 HARVARD
24 at Holy Cross
31 BUCKNELL
NOVEMBER
7 COLGATE
14 Bye
21 at Lehigh

2016
SEPTEMBER
3 Open
10 DELAWARE
17 at Princeton
24 Open
OCTOBER
1 HOLY CROSS
8 at Fordham
15 Open
22 at Bucknell
29 GEORGETOWN
NOVEMBER
5 Open
12 at Colgate
19 LEHIGH

It seems as if certain Ivy under-the-breath "promises" to forswear Lafayette (and other Patriot teams) given the advent of PL scholarships have been fulfilled.

Lafayette College is a tiny, undergraduate engineering/liberal arts college of just 2,300 students. It subscribes fully to the Academic Index - meaning that it accepts only the caliber of students that Ivy accepts. We're a threat to no one.

What's up with the Elite Eight?

Good bye Penn, Yale and Princeton. Hello Wagner, Robert Morris and Sacred Heart.

[CFBfan]

Gate has 3 next and 3 again in 2015 (Cornell, Yale and Princeton both seasons). That follows 2 (Yale and Cornell) this season.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It seems odd for Harvard and Princeton to drop Lafayette from the schedule. They've owned them lately.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It seems odd for Harvard and Princeton to drop Lafayette from the schedule. They've owned them lately.

Harvard, it appears, is sticking around. It's Penn and and Yale that I'm most concerned about. And Princeton too - given that you can literally ride a bicycle up the river between the two campuses on a brisk, clear autumn afternoon. That's a good reason why we compete against the Tigers in literally every sport, every season.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Penn? Abandoning a Patriot League school because they can't beat them? Plus ca change..... xlolx

[RichH2]

Wow, guess Murphy's prediction coming true at least in part. A shame enjoy our Ivy games. Rather a silly overreaction by Ivies. Their loss IMO, they can fill those slots with NEC and D II New England schools. Up to us to upgrade our own schedules.

[bonarae]

Wow, guess Murphy's prediction coming true at least in part. A shame enjoy our Ivy games. Rather a silly overreaction by Ivies. Their loss IMO, they can fill those slots with NEC and D II New England schools. Up to us to upgrade our own schedules.

And also PFL...

[Sitting Bull]

Maybe it's a sign the Ivies are actually going to start spreading their OOC games around. If so, I think that's a good thing, for the Ivies and FCS overall.

[bonarae]

Maybe it's a sign the Ivies are actually going to start spreading their OOC games around. If so, I think that's a good thing, for the Ivies and FCS overall.

But the twist is, it's towards the PFL... which is a downgrade from the level of competition before. xsmhx

[Sitting Bull]

Is that exclusive? I know W&M has a current 2 game series with Penn.

It would be great if they could add some additional CAA teams, Southern, MVC, etc. on an expanded basis. Maybe one day, even join in the playoffs.

The Ivy is a great asset to FCS. Doesn't help if they restrict their OOC exposure to one single conference.

[RichH2]

Expect you're right bonarae but do you see an adding more than 1. Would be nice if IL tried to expand and upgrade sched. Dont see that happening tho.

[Ivytalk]

Wow, guess Murphy's prediction coming true at least in part. A shame enjoy our Ivy games. Rather a silly overreaction by Ivies. Their loss IMO, they can fill those slots with NEC and D II New England schools. Up to us to upgrade our own schedules.

If Murphy had his way, we'd be back to a 9-game schedule.xrolleyesx

[Pard4Life]

Hard to say if they are abandoning us. Tavani has long since shown his disdain for being wedded so strongly to the Ivy with long-term contracts that were signed around 2000. The long-term contracts should be ending around now since he said they were for around ten years, and I can imagine McC signing deals for series over four years around 2010.

We are also building flexibility into our schedule as well... in 2016, we have only 8 games thus far, one against Princeton and Delaware each. The dates are in all three months of the season. Are we keeping dates open for FCS games?

Penn has not been an annual rivalry... there have been large gaps in the series.

Yale is a bit of a newbie. Before we started seeing them regularly starting around 2006, we only met them seven times or so. Sidlecki was fired, who worked with Tavani, so that may have something to do with it. Murphy and Tavani go back a ways, so that may be why we are sticking with Harvard... we only met them about four-five times before Murphy took over in the mid-90s.

[Pard4Life]

If Murphy had his way, we'd be back to a 9-game schedule.xrolleyesx

Really? Sounds like he supports Ivies in the playoffs...

[DFW HOYA]

It's not as dire as would be claimed. Of 72 possible non-conference games for the Ancient Eight from 2014 through 2016, the PL still holds 41 of them, though this may drop further after 2016 when 60 scholarships are in place.

Patriot opponents per Ivy schools, 2014-16:

Brown: Holy Cross 2, Georgetown 1
Columbia: Fordham 3, Georgetown 2
Cornell: Colgate 3, Bucknell 3, Lehigh 1
Dartmouth: Holy Cross 2, Georgetown 1
Harvard: Holy Cross 3, Lafayette 3, Georgetown 2, Fordham 1
Pennsylvania: Fordham 1
Princeton: Colgate 2, Lehigh 2, Lafayette 2, Georgetown 1
Yale: Lehigh 3, Colgate 2, Fordham 1

Total by Patriot schools:

Colgate: 7
Georgetown: 7
Holy Cross: 7
Lehigh: 6
Fordham: 6
Lafayette: 5
Bucknell: 3

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/fball/2013-14/media_guide/index

[Ivytalk]

Really? Sounds like he supports Ivies in the playoffs...

Doesn't have the cojones that I'd expect to see from an endowed coaching position. He could fight a lot harder if that's his view, which is not at all clear.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing you and carney again in Easton in 2015!

[Go...gate]

Maybe it's a sign the Ivies are actually going to start spreading their OOC games around. If so, I think that's a good thing, for the Ivies and FCS overall.

Unfortunately, it seems more a NESCAC - like decision to look ever more inward and not step up outside the Ivy, at least in football.

[Go...gate]

It's not as dire as would be claimed. Of 72 possible non-conference opponents for the Ancient Eight from 2014 through 2016, the PL still holds 41 of them, though this may drop further after 2016 when 60 scholarships are in place.

Patriot opponents per Ivy schools, 2014-16:

Brown: Holy Cross 2, Georgetown 1
Columbia: Fordham 3, Georgetown 2
Cornell: Colgate 3, Bucknell 3, Lehigh 1
Dartmouth: Holy Cross 2, Georgetown 1
Harvard: Holy Cross 3, Lafayette 3, Georgetown 2, Fordham 1
Pennsylvania: Fordham 1
Princeton: Colgate 2, Lehigh 2, Lafayette 2, Georgetown 1
Yale: Lehigh 3, Colgate 2, Fordham 1

Total by Patriot schools:

Colgate: 7
Georgetown: 7
Holy Cross: 7
Lehigh: 6
Fordham: 6
Lafayette: 5
Bucknell: 3

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/sports/fball/2013-14/media_guide/index

But a very far cry from what it was.

[DFW HOYA]

But a very far cry from what it was.

Of course, but that was when Georgetown would get no Ivy teams whatsoever and Bucknell...well, they're still ignored.

But to your point, PL teams once accounted for close to 90% of all Ivy non-conf. opponents.

[Go...gate]

Of course, but that was when Georgetown would get no Ivy teams whatsoever and Bucknell...well, they're still ignored.

But to your point, PL teams once accounted for close to 90% of all Ivy non-conf. opponents.

And GU will get a lot more games with the IL going forward because GU did not go to scholarships.

[saxbison]

Maybe it's a sign the Ivies are actually going to start spreading their OOC games around. If so, I think that's a good thing, for the Ivies and FCS overall.

I personally would love to see the Ivies schedule games with upper conferences. The top of the Ivy league vs CAA, MVFC, Big Sky or Southland would be marquee matchups IMHO.

[Go...gate]

It is a shame that the Ivy is going in this direction. Ivy schools were playing many of us long before there was an Ivy League.

[Go...gate]

Penn? Abandoning a Patriot League school because they can't beat them? Plus ca change..... xlolx

Penn thrashed Colgate at Franklin Field in September 1996, 38-7 our seventeenth consecutive loss (we lost 18 in a row between 1994 and 1996) and then simply stopped playing us. According to Mark Murphy, Penn had no interest, even if a series was played exclusively in Philadelphia. Dave Roach had no success in re-starting the series. Penn started playing William & Mary, Duquesne, Lafayette, Lehigh and Bucknell but not us.

[poly51]

Yale will play Cal Poly in California this year.

[bonarae]

Unfortunately, it seems more a NESCAC - like decision to look ever more inward and not step up outside the Ivy, at least in football.

I believe so. If the Ivies will go that way, I will jump to cheering for Stony Brook or Albany by that time.


I personally would love to see the Ivies schedule games with upper conferences. The top of the Ivy league vs CAA, MVFC, Big Sky or Southland would be marquee matchups IMHO.

I would like to too, but it's more wishful thinking now... xbawlingx

[Pard4Life]

Yale will play Cal Poly in California this year.

Poly should dominate. Yale is not very good and may finish last. Too bad because it would be a prime opportunity to challenge the Ivy myth of their top teams being soft.

[aceinthehole]

Good bye Penn, Yale and Princeton. Hello Wagner, Robert Morris and Sacred Heart.

:)

[Model Citizen]

And also PFL...

There are an inconsequential number of additional PFL games. To the extent the Ivies are dropping Patriot League games, the NEC is taking up most of the slack.

[Sader87]

The Patriot (nee Colonial) League was essentially created to give the Ivies "non-scholarship football" opponents as by the mid 80's many Ivies were losing embarrasingly to schools like Holy Cross, Colgate, Delaware, UNH etc. on an annual basis.

Now that the PL is going scholly, I'm not surprised to see the Ancient 8 "take their ball and go home."

[Pard4Life]

Ivies much more likely to drop the sport to conference only round robin play than join the FCS playoffs at this point.

[RichH2]

Il has been an extremely insular conference over the last 20 yrs. Unless they add another game,unlikely, may be they get even more insular, if that is even possibel

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IMO, the subject line in this is overblown. "Abandon"? Harvard and Princeton are still playing LC, and there doesn't seem to be any plans of them really leaving. It's more like "Penn abandons Lafayette", which is hardly a news item, since Penn has already abandoned Lehigh and Colgate.

If, say, Dartmouth or Cornell replaces Penn on LC's schedule, would it still be an "abandonment?" I seriously doubt it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's another friendly bit of advice. If the IL wants to diversify their OOC schedule, there's a very easy way: play an 11-game schedule. Voila, 8 more OOC opportunites for Yale to play Cal Poly, Dartmouth to play Campbell, Columbia to play Colgate, or whatever an AD's heart's desire.

[DFW HOYA]

PL fans can't have it both ways. The Lafayette and Holy Cross fans expect to play four Ivies a year as some birthright, but also want W&M and Delaware and UMass and the Boston College opener.

Maybe, just maybe, some of these PL schools are not renewing Ivy agreements to open up their own future schedules for different (better) opponents, not because of some sort of sinister plan coming from the halls of Old Nassau.

[carney2]

The sky is falling. The sky is falling.

C'mon, Bogie, I see a reduction in games against the Ancient 8 here. This is something that many of us have been pleading for for years. Four Ivy games per year (not an unusual happening for a Lafayette schedule over the past few years) was way over the top. Three, even, was a load when it was happening year after year. Let's consider school by school:

BROWN - Played them 11 times, the last in 1999. Hardly a tradition.
COLUMBIA - 42 games. Don't understand why this isn't continuing in some form or another.
CORNELL - 24 total games. None since 1997. Not much tradition here.
DARTMOUTH - 8 games. No one on either side cares about this.
HARVARD - Only 16 games, but 11 of them in this century. Something's going on.
PENNSYLVANIA - This year will be number 90 in this series. The 3rd most played of any Lafayette opponent. That, folks, is a tradition. It is criminal that it appears to be ending.
PRINCETON - 45 games in the Pinata Series. That's tradition to me. But it comes and goes. When Tigger goes away for 2/3/4 years it's no surprise. Whenever he needs to beat up on someone however, he comes home.
YALE - Only 10 games in this series. No big deal.

Where is the proof that the Ivys are shutting the door on the Patriot League? Where is it written? Who are they going to play? Are they picking up Sacred Heart, Robert Morris and Wagner? What say the other 6 Patriot League schools about this? Give me chapter and verse.

[carney2]

I look forward to seeing you and carney again in Easton in 2015!

Not making the trek to Cambridge on 10/19? I plan to be there.

[carney2]

Reality check:

After thrashing about and gnashing teeth, common sense will intervene. Travel budgets will carry the day for FCS programs that, let's be honest, are not exactly setting it on fire at the ticket window. The Patriot League has four choices before they kiss and make up with Uncle Ivy:

1. NEC, PFL and the like. Yuk!

2. CAA. These games are not easy to get - and certainly not in the quantity needed.

3. FBS money games. Also not easy to get, can neither count on them nor schedule many in any individual season, and may become more scarce after the predicted NCAA/FBS reorganizations.

4. Travel. SoCon, MVC, or even the get on a plane and spend big bucks Big Sky.

The options on both sides of this supposed "argument" are few and unpalatable. Cooler heads will prevail.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Ivies much more likely to drop the sport to conference only round robin play than join the FCS playoffs at this point.

That's too bad. I enjoyed the two-game home-and-home series Princeton had with The Citadel a few years ago. I wouldn't mind playing other Ivies occasionally, though it isn't an easy scheduling situation for either side (and then there was the fracas involving Princeton's band, but in the end no one died except an unlucky oboe).


If the scheduling/travel costs would work (debatable), a series with one of the Patriot League schools would be okay with me, too.

[DFW HOYA]

Assuming no new entrants or exits to the PL, there are generally five games to fill annually. Most would see the pool as such:

1. One I-A game (academies, UConn, Temple, maybe a MAC team)
2. One or two CAA
3. One upper level NEC or Big South (Monmouth?)
4. Two Ivies
5. An occasional dip in the pool for a lower level NEC or a Pioneer team

(Bucknell starts at #3 on that list and moves down. Georgetown starts at #4.)

[Pard4Life]

The sky is falling. The sky is falling.

C'mon, Bogie, I see a reduction in games against the Ancient 8 here. This is something that many of us have been pleading for for years. Four Ivy games per year (not an unusual happening for a Lafayette schedule over the past few years) was way over the top. Three, even, was a load when it was happening year after year. Let's consider school by school:

BROWN - Played them 11 times, the last in 1999. Hardly a tradition.
COLUMBIA - 42 games. Don't understand why this isn't continuing in some form or another.
CORNELL - 24 total games. None since 1997. Not much tradition here.
DARTMOUTH - 8 games. No one on either side cares about this.
HARVARD - Only 16 games, but 11 of them in this century. Something's going on.
PENNSYLVANIA - This year will be number 90 in this series. The 3rd most played of any Lafayette opponent. That, folks, is a tradition. It is criminal that it appears to be ending.
PRINCETON - 45 games in the Pinata Series. That's tradition to me. But it comes and goes. When Tigger goes away for 2/3/4 years it's no surprise. Whenever he needs to beat up on someone however, he comes home.
YALE - Only 10 games in this series. No big deal.

Where is the proof that the Ivys are shutting the door on the Patriot League? Where is it written? Who are they going to play? Are they picking up Sacred Heart, Robert Morris and Wagner? What say the other 6 Patriot League schools about this? Give me chapter and verse.

I think Bogie is primarily upset that we are replacing the majority of our OOC games with NECs instead of Ivies, possibly due to scholarships and Ivy unwillingness to face scholarship PL teams. I agree that our 2014 schedule looks pathetic, but 2015 is ideal... 2 CAAs, 2 Ivy, 1 NEC. I have no problem with two Ivies and at most three. It remains to be seen if 2014 is an outlier though. And yes, there is no real evidence that the Ivies will/are abandoning the PL... I recall we tried to debunk LFN or someone else on this fact. But... we can only look three years ahead at this point...

Also per Harvard... Murphy and Tavani have connections, as do the Kirby's...

Too early to say if Penn is "ending."

[Pard4Life]

That's too bad. I enjoyed the two-game home-and-home series Princeton had with The Citadel a few years ago. I wouldn't mind playing other Ivies occasionally, though it isn't an easy scheduling situation for either side (and then there was the fracas involving Princeton's band, but in the end no one died except an unlucky oboe).


If the scheduling/travel costs would work (debatable), a series with one of the Patriot League schools would be okay with me, too.

Princeton's band always causes a farcas... Ivy bands in general are arrogant. Penn's president had to apologize for theirs once.. played over our alma mater following the game... scandal!

Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn seem to be the only Ivies making an effort to visit other areas of the country. It would be feasible for PL series... Lafayette and Lehigh have visited Liberty and Colgate was at Furman... so it's not unknown to us. And Gtown at Davidson.

[Pard4Life]

Not making the trek to Cambridge on 10/19? I plan to be there.

Pretty good! Outside chance that I may go... but why drive 300 miles for agony?

[carney2]

Pretty good! Outside chance that I may go... but why drive 300 miles for agony?

1. Need to see Harvard Stadium before, as Bogie hints, we can't go there anymore.

and

2. Indoctrinating/brainwashing my favorite 7 year old who lives in that area - well, more or less.

[Pard4Life]

2. Indoctrinating/brainwashing my favorite 7 year old who lives in that area - well, more or less.

Just introduce him to the Harvard mascot...

http://wp.streetwise.co/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/10159516-harvard-mascot-john-harvard.jpg

... things will fall into line nicely thereafter.

[Engineer86]

Those are not bad schedules, we need to upgrade to get to that point. However, interesting Bye weeks in 2014 and 2015

[Bogus Megapardus]

IMO, the subject line in this is overblown.

Under-blowing was never my strong suit.

[Pard4Life]

Under-blowing was never my strong suit.

xflaggedx xeekx

[bulldog10jw]

Poly should dominate. Yale is not very good and may finish last. Too bad because it would be a prime opportunity to challenge the Ivy myth of their top teams being soft.

Poly MAY dominate, but a good Yale showing would not surprise me.

No chance Yale finishes below 5th in the league.

[Pard4Life]

No chance Yale finishes above 5th in the league.

Fixed it for you...

It would be really hard to overcome Harvard-Penn-Princeton-Dartmouth-Brown.

[bulldog10jw]

Fixed it for you...

It would be really hard to overcome Harvard-Penn-Princeton-Dartmouth-Brown.

Harvard-Penn, maybe.

[Go Green]

If Murphy had his way, we'd be back to a 9-game schedule.xrolleyesx

Not so.

Murphy (like every Ivy coach) has expressed support for Ivy participation in playoffs.

[Go Green]

Doesn't have the cojones that I'd expect to see from an endowed coaching position. He could fight a lot harder if that's his view, which is not at all clear.


Not sure what he's supposed to do. This isn't Ohio State, where the coaches fire the presidents. The presidents are still in charge. And they don't want playoffs.

[Sitting Bull]

And they don't want playoffs.

I have never read or heard a good reason why. The Ivy participates for all other sports except football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not sure what he's supposed to do. This isn't Ohio State, where the coaches fire the presidents. The presidents are still in charge. And they don't want playoffs.

The biggest problem: they're not listening.

[Go Green]

I have never read or heard a good reason why. .

Some of the reasons made sense back in the day. Over time, the reasons have variously been:

1) Didn't want to support racial segregation by participating in bowl games in the south.

2) Too much missed class time.

3) Too much emphasis on big-time football.

When all those became outdated, somewhere along the line the reasons morphed into:

4) We want to preserve traditional in-league rivalries (read: Harvard v. Yale) and

5) We've always done it that way and that makes the Ivy League special.

Needless to say, the last two don't hold much water among most (albeit not all) Ivy fans.

[WestCoastAggie]

Reality check:

After thrashing about and gnashing teeth, common sense will intervene. Travel budgets will carry the day for FCS programs that, let's be honest, are not exactly setting it on fire at the ticket window. The Patriot League has four choices before they kiss and make up with Uncle Ivy:

1. NEC, PFL and the like. Yuk!

2. CAA. These games are not easy to get - and certainly not in the quantity needed.

3. FBS money games. Also not easy to get, can neither count on them nor schedule many in any individual season, and may become more scarce after the predicted NCAA/FBS reorganizations.

4. Travel. SoCon, MVC, or even the get on a plane and spend big bucks Big Sky.

The options on both sides of this supposed "argument" are few and unpalatable. Cooler heads will prevail.

Why not look for games against the MEAC? You have 5 schools in Va, Md, DC and Del that you can travel to or bring up in an home & home scenario.

[bonarae]

Not sure what he's supposed to do. This isn't Ohio State, where the coaches fire the presidents. The presidents are still in charge. And they don't want playoffs.


Some of the reasons made sense back in the day. Over time, the reasons have variously been:

1) Didn't want to support racial segregation by participating in bowl games in the south.

2) Too much missed class time.

3) Too much emphasis on big-time football.

When all those became outdated, somewhere along the line the reasons morphed into:

4) We want to preserve traditional in-league rivalries (read: Harvard v. Yale) and

5) We've always done it that way and that makes the Ivy League special.

Needless to say, the last two don't hold much water among most (albeit not all) Ivy fans.

These two replies say that the non-participation of the Ivy champ in the playoffs is a complicated mess now... xsmhx

[bonarae]

Also, that being said, I have full motivation to transfer my loyalty to Stony Brook or Albany. The only question is when will I abandon ship from the Ivy.

[Go...gate]

PL fans can't have it both ways. The Lafayette and Holy Cross fans expect to play four Ivies a year as some birthright, but also want W&M and Delaware and UMass and the Boston College opener.

Maybe, just maybe, some of these PL schools are not renewing Ivy agreements to open up their own future schedules for different (better) opponents, not because of some sort of sinister plan coming from the halls of Old Nassau.

This may be a boon to GU scheduling because the Ivies will see GU as more philosophically "compatible".

[RichH2]

Stony Brook for sure.

[Ivytalk]

Not sure what he's supposed to do. This isn't Ohio State, where the coaches fire the presidents. The presidents are still in charge. And they don't want playoffs.

So, are the Green going to beat Harvard this year? We're going for 10 straight in the series.

[Go Green]

So, are the Green going to beat Harvard this year? We're going for 10 straight in the series.

Hope so.

I mean, it would suck if the football series became as lopsided as the Dartmouth-Harvard baseball series.

xlolx

[PAllen]

Why not look for games against the MEAC? You have 5 schools in Va, Md, DC and Del that you can travel to or bring up in an home & home scenario.

Good thought. Howard would be fantastic (anything that brings Lehigh to DC is a plus), but Morgan would be good too (kids can stay at grandma's, but now I'm just being selfish ;) )

[Ivytalk]

Hope so.

I mean, it would suck if the football series became as lopsided as the Dartmouth-Harvard baseball series.

xlolx

What is this ball of base of which you speak?xbopx

Speaking of former Big Green baseball players, Ed Lucas had a decent game yesterday for the Marlins.

[Pard4Life]

Hope so.

I mean, it would suck if the football series became as lopsided as the Dartmouth-Harvard baseball series.

xlolx

Dartmouth has a baseball team? xchinscratchx

[Go Green]

Dartmouth has a baseball team? xchinscratchx

Indeed we do. We've pretty much been the Ivy power for the 21st Century.

FWIW, we spent most of last year in the "others receiving votes" category in Top 25 polls. xnodx Alas, Columbia upset us in the Ivy championship and they got to go to the NCAA tourney. xbawlingx

[Ivytalk]

Indeed we do. We've pretty much been the Ivy power for the 21st Century.

FWIW, we spent most of last year in the "others receiving votes" category in Top 25 polls. xnodx Alas, Columbia upset us in the Ivy championship and they got to go to the NCAA tourney. xbawlingx

I am frankly shocked at how far and how fast Harvard's baseball and men's ice hockey teams have descended into the crapper. When I was at Harvard, both teams were strong. We won the Ivy title in baseball 5 times in the 70s, 4 times in the 80s, and three times in the late 90s. Pretty much zilch since 2005. We've won 25 Ivy titles in men's hockey but only two since 1994.

[Go Green]

I am frankly shocked at how far and how fast Harvard's baseball and men's ice hockey teams have descended into the crapper. When I was at Harvard, both teams were strong. We won the Ivy title in baseball 5 times in the 70s, 4 times in the 80s, and three times in the late 90s. Pretty much zilch since 2005. We've won 25 Ivy titles in men's hockey but only two since 1994.

A popular theory is that Harvard admissions took away the AI lowband slots from baseball and hockey, and gave them to the men's basketball team.

And it's not a coincidence that Dartmouth became a league baseball power at the same time Harvard collapsed. I think we ended up getting a lot of guys who would have gone to Harvard in years past.

But you guys are still getitng some good performers on the baseball team--just not actually playing baseball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT-MoPczjck

[Ivytalk]

Hope so.

I mean, it would suck if the football series became as lopsided as the Dartmouth-Harvard baseball series.

xlolx

And I have to tell you that, in the 70s at least, Dartmouth fans in all sports were probably the most vocal and, er, aggressive fans in the league. Dartmouth's women fans were particularly nasty at football games, and the streams of saliva and other fluids that used to penetrate the chain link barrier at your old hockey arena were legendary!

[Ivytalk]

A popular theory is that Harvard admissions took away the AI lowband slots from baseball and hockey, and gave them to the men's basketball team.

And it's not a coincidence that Dartmouth became a league baseball power at the same time Harvard collapsed. I think we ended up getting a lot of guys who would have gone to Harvard in years past.

But you guys are still getitng some good performers on the baseball team--just not actually playing baseball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT-MoPczjck

That explains it! And we get two of our hoops cheaters back this year. (But you guys damn nearly beat us in Cambridge last season.)

[colorless raider]

I am frankly shocked at how far and how fast Harvard's baseball and men's ice hockey teams have descended into the crapper. When I was at Harvard, both teams were strong. We won the Ivy title in baseball 5 times in the 70s, 4 times in the 80s, and three times in the late 90s. Pretty much zilch since 2005. We've won 25 Ivy titles in men's hockey but only two since 1994.


All those AI slots went to basketball and football.

[Go Green]

All those AI slots went to basketball and football.

Half-right.

I'm no Harvard insider. But I have yet to hear that football has been getting any breaks with admissions. Murphy has been bringing in the talent against traditional Harvard admissions.

Basketball is a whole other story. There's plenty of howling about lowered admissions in Cambridge for basketball. Most of the bellyaching comes from Yale and Penn. Princeton hasn't whined that much about it (at least not yet). Which is interesting, because nobody complained more about lowered admissions than Princeton football in the 1990s.

[bulldog10jw]

Half-right.

I'm no Harvard insider. But I have yet to hear that football has been getting any breaks with admissions. Murphy has been bringing in the talent against traditional Harvard admissions.

Basketball is a whole other story. There's plenty of howling about lowered admissions in Cambridge for basketball. Most of the bellyaching comes from Yale and Penn. Princeton hasn't whined that much about it (at least not yet). Which is interesting, because nobody complained more about lowered admissions than Princeton football in the 1990s.

Penn has a lot of nerve to complain about lowered admissions in any sport.

[Pard4Life]

Half-right.

I'm no Harvard insider. But I have yet to hear that football has been getting any breaks with admissions. Murphy has been bringing in the talent against traditional Harvard admissions.

Basketball is a whole other story. There's plenty of howling about lowered admissions in Cambridge for basketball. Most of the bellyaching comes from Yale and Penn. Princeton hasn't whined that much about it (at least not yet). Which is interesting, because nobody complained more about lowered admissions than Princeton football in the 1990s.

They made national headlines... why are they complaining? Unless they are taking the Lafayette approach: "Win, but be careful not to win too much. It's not healthy for our institution."

[Go Green]

Penn has a lot of nerve to complain about lowered admissions in any sport.

I'd agree with this in isolation. But you have to understand the context. Penn has a lot of institutional resentment towards what it perceives as Harvard's holier-than-thou attitude regarding admissions.

The AI was instituted in 1980, largely as a response to Penn's Final Four basketball team the year before (they got trounced in the semis by Magic Johnson). Prior to that time, Ivy basketball (Penn) was nationally relevant. After the AI was implemented, Ivy basketball took a huge tumble. There were other factors involved (namely, the creation of the Big East), but Penn loyalists blame the AI for the downgrading of its basketball program. And they believe (perhaps correctly) that Harvard was leading the charge for the rest of the league to adopt the AI to make sure what Penn did never happened again (and it hasn't).

Couple that with the fact that the Ivy teams were given five years to get into compliance with their AI bands. Most went into compliance immediately. Some programs (Dartmouth, Yale) immediately saw a downturn in football. Penn, on the other hand, opted to wait the full five years before getting to its AI level and recruited a bunch of guys that probably wouldn't have made the AI cut. Coincidence or not, they dominated the 1980s in football. Harvard (or at least Harvard's coach) made more than a few comments donwplaying Penn's success due to lowered admissions, and Penn resented it.

Fast forward years later. Harvard uses its resources to offer generous financial aid packages that a lot of Ivy schools can't meet. The AI is one of the few remaining weapons those Ivies (Penn) has against Harvard.

Now that's gone as well--at least for basketball.

Given how much Penn loves basketball, it's not hard to see why they're pissed (or at least resentful) at Harvard. If you're like Dartmouth and care more about baseball than basketball (and we do), then Harvard's success in hoops doesn't bother you as much.

[carney2]

I do hope that an AGS administrator is taking note and getting this archived: this tread has been hi-jacked by the Ivy League. And trumping even this, it has become a discussion between Harvard and Dartmouth - Dartmouth, fergawdsake. Next we'll be hearing from Cornell and Brown. Would that be a new high in low or would we be going the other way?

[Sader87]

I do hope that an AGS administrator is taking note and getting this archived: this tread has been hi-jacked by the Ivy League. And trumping even this, it has become a discussion between Harvard and Dartmouth - Dartmouth, fergawdsake. Next we'll be hearing from Cornell and Brown. Would that be a new high in low or would we be going the other way?

FWIW .....we coulda been in the Big East.

[bulldog10jw]

I do hope that an AGS administrator is taking note and getting this archived: this tread has been hi-jacked by the Ivy League.

You PL guys lost interest. We're just filling the void. xpeacex

[Go Green]

You PL guys lost interest. We're just filling the void. xpeacex

That, and the thread *did* begin talking about the Ivy.

It's not like we hijacked a thread about North Dakota State-Minnesota.

:)

[RichH2]

That, and the thread *did* begin talking about the Ivy.

It's not like we hijacked a thread about North Dakota State-Minnesota.

:)
That's the next step in the hijack addiction.