Questions for the pro-FCS crowd

[Eagle22]

Okay, there clearly is a large contingent of folks on here (and other messageboard forums) who think GSU and ASU are making a mistake in leaving FCS and going to the Sunbelt. Fair enough. I can respect folks who have a well formed opinion, even if it is inconsistent with my own.

There also seems to be an opinion that should the saber-rattling at the highest levels about the separation occur, that GSU and ASU are spending a lot of effort to ultimately get no further ahead. Some even postulate that the G5 will be forced to merge with the upper tier of FCS.

If we assume both of the above premises are true, here are my questions for the remaining fans of FCS:

1) How much interest are you going to have in your team's regular season when your access to the post season is either eliminated or severely curtailed ? I say eliminated because I seriously doubt the NCAA is going to create additional money-losing playoff competitions.
2) How much more money do you think it will cost your team to play and compete at the current level, if teams from the G5 are suddenly your direct competition ? Where are your new revenue streams coming from ?

I've heard all the arguments (pro and con) for nearly two decades while teams have come and gone, and the unadulterated truth is it is much easier to be critical and dismissive when it involves a team that you do not freely associate with.

It seems like there is a fair number of FCS fans who dream of having some FBS teams forced back to compete, and if indeed that does happen I can see a number of programs all of a sudden realizing uh-oh, we are way behind in facilities, way behind in support, etc .... that will obviously affect some programs differently than others, but being a top 20 program in FCS as it exists today would not amount as much in terms of comparison to the G5.

So by my estimation, an existing FCS program would have to decide to either pony up and put more money and effort into their program or scale it back.

That would potentially create some realignment tangles amongst the current conference lineups, as all of the existing FCS conferences would be faced with similar decisions that they faced back when I-AA was formed.

Tom Yeager's comments kind of jostled some of those thoughts on some of the teams that ventured into the Sun Belt over ten years ago. Turns out in retrospect, that I was right on some beliefs and wrong on others.

Curious about other's perspective, especially in relation to the two questions above.

[NHwildEcat]

Personally, I think it is all hot air. Nothing is going to change. The big conference don't want to share with the lower ones within FBS and in the long run they most likely won't. They aren't going to break off as it will put all of their other programs in jeopardy and basketball drives more schools than football does. So the NCAA bball money speaks higher volumes to more schools then the football money will, IMO.

I think what everyone seems to forget is at the end of the day this is college football. We have let the schools/conference make too much out of money. I just want to watch some good quality football, bottom line. I also thinkin my personal case, if UNH were to do something that negativelty affected hockey I'd be way more pissed then football. We are nothing but a small dot in the football world. But we are a major player in hockey.

[344Johnson]

if UNH were to do something that negativelty affected hockey I'd be way more pissed then football. We are nothing but a small dot in the football world. But we are a major player in hockey.

I did not know UNH even had a hockey team.

[WileECoyote06]

Some FCS programs, may leave but those schools already in FBS are not coming back. The Big 5 will form their own division, the other 5 conferences will keep the Bowl concept and the lower divisions will be untouched.

IMHO

[NHwildEcat]

Some FCS programs, may leave but those schools already in FBS are not coming back. The Big 5 will form their own division, the other 5 conferences will keep the Bowl concept and the lower divisions will be untouched.

IMHO

Maybe. I just can't see the NCAA adding another subclassification.

[Sitting Bull]

Not sure your 1st question has any meaning - seems to me that whether you are dealing with playoffs or a low level bowl system, the same would apply whether FBS or FCS?

Two questions I would add:
1) how much interest will your fan base have if there's no chance for a national championship?
2) is it worth the move to relocate your "home" games (UMass, Idaho, ULL) and move your game dates to week nights for the sake of TV?

I actually think these questions and decisions are obviously up to the school. There is no right/wrong answer.

For my interest, the sacrifices above aren't worth the very small jump, even if it is just perception.

[WileECoyote06]

Maybe. I just can't see the NCAA adding another subclassification.

Something is going to happen. Maybe the Big 5 will be happy with Mark Emmert resigning, but I doubt it.

[geaux_sioux]

Some FCS programs, may leave but those schools already in FBS are not coming back. The Big 5 will form their own division, the other 5 conferences will keep the Bowl concept and the lower divisions will be untouched.

IMHO

Why would the lower tier FBS schools want to keep bowl games that cost them money to attend?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why would the lower tier FBS schools want to keep bowl games that cost them money to attend?

I agree. There is basically no demand, TV or attendance wise for a Northern Illinois/ULL bowl as long as there are playoff matchups or bowls that feature two "Big 5" teams. Once the chance to play Michigan, Ole Miss or the like in a bowl evaporates, the whole economics of the lower-tier bowls gets destroyed.

[CID1990]

I don't know if it is a "large contingent" of people who think GSU and ASU are making a mistake by moving up. For sure it isn't a plurality.

I personally don't think it is a mistake. Moving up fits with the two schools' priorities, will provide some additional revenue (people will argue this) and media opportunities, and they will play on a larger stage.

I do think that there are some fans who have some unrealistic expectations, but in the balance, if moving up is seen as the best option, then it is.

The move to the Sun Belt is a slightly different story. After a few years there, I think both of your fan bases are going to be just as dissatisfied as they are now. I think the move to the SBC is a placeholder move; to get into FBS first, then eventually to move to different conferences. Down the road I think this will be easier for ASU than for GSU (solely for geographical reasons).

At the end of the day, if moving up is what the fans and the schools want, then it's the right move.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[darell1976]

Why would the lower tier FBS schools want to keep bowl games that cost them money to attend?

If the lower FBS schools dumped the bowls and created a playoff would their be more teams bolting from the FCS to the FBS?

[UNH Fanboi]

I don't think ASU and GSU are making a mistake moving to the Sunbelt, but I think some of their fans have been grossly exaggerating the pros of the Sun Belt and the cons of FCS.

[WileECoyote06]

I agree. There is basically no demand, TV or attendance wise for a Northern Illinois/ULL bowl as long as there are playoff matchups or bowls that feature two "Big 5" teams. Once the chance to play Michigan, Ole Miss or the like in a bowl evaporates, the whole economics of the lower-tier bowls gets destroyed. ESPN can keep the lower-tier bowls afloat just like they do now. As far as schools losing money on bowl trips; what would be different from what happens now? It's all about exposure and future recruiting.


If the lower FBS schools dumped the bowls and created a playoff would their be more teams bolting from the FCS to the FBS? The non-BCS conferences would still have to accept those FCS teams, and there are few programs left that can justify splitting up the marginal television revenue that those non-BCS teams already receive.

I'm just not seeing the mass exodus of elite programs that people here keep predicting. Those 'elite programs' should have their butts in motion right now or they are going to miss that train, once realignment stabilizes in 2015.

[darell1976]

I don't think ASU and GSU are making a mistake moving to the Sunbelt, but I think some of their fans have been grossly exaggerating the pros of the Sun Belt and the cons of FCS.

The Sun Belt is like the Great West of the FBS. Its a starter conference for teams looking for greener pastures.

[citdog]

personally I quit thinking about pigs ass, ga and the ned beatty's back when they made the announcement of their, lateral at best, move. let the erring sisters go in peace and wish them well.

[Sitting Bull]

The Sun Belt is like the Great West of the FBS. Its a starter conference for teams looking for greener pastures.

It looks like a new collection of FCS schools to me.

[darell1976]

Has there been any FCS schools in the past couple decades or so that has gotten into the top 5 BCS conferences?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Has there been any FCS schools in the past couple decades or so that has gotten into the top 5 BCS conferences?

Uconn did, but now, not so much..

[URMite]

Has there been any FCS schools in the past couple decades or so that has gotten into the top 5 BCS conferences?

"Since 1987, 19 FCS programs have completed reclassification to FBS. None of them are members of the five power conferences. That’s important because lower-tier FBS leagues don’t have nearly the revenue streams of the Southeastern, Big Ten, ACC, Big 12 and Pac-12 conferences." - Tom Yeager (CAA)

UConn did get into the Big East and expect Nova would have as well.

[darell1976]

Uconn did, but now, not so much..

So once the Big 5 split I wonder how difficult it will be to get new members. Since there is only 1 Big 5 conference out west I wonder if Boise St has a shot at the PAC 12?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

1) How much interest are you going to have in your team's regular season when your access to the post season is either eliminated or severely curtailed ? I say eliminated because I seriously doubt the NCAA is going to create additional money-losing playoff competitions.
2) How much more money do you think it will cost your team to play and compete at the current level, if teams from the G5 are suddenly your direct competition ? Where are your new revenue streams coming from ?


I think you might want to invest in one of those Jump To Conclusions mats. Here are your answers with a number of rebuttal questions.

1- If the FCS playoffs go away - and I haven't heard or read anything of substance that says they will - I will be happy to see the Spiders compete for CAA championships. Perhaps there would be an opportunity for some other postseason game. Who knows?
2- We get about $350k for playing Virginia every other year. It's a big help but we'd find a way to survive if that revenue stream went away. And I don't think that revenue stream is going away. Who will Virginia play instead of Richmond one Saturday in September? How will it benefit the Wahoos?

[Sir William]

I don't know if it is a "large contingent" of people who think GSU and ASU are making a mistake by moving up. For sure it isn't a plurality.

I personally don't think it is a mistake. Moving up fits with the two schools' priorities, will provide some additional revenue (people will argue this) and media opportunities, and they will play on a larger stage.

I do think that there are some fans who have some unrealistic expectations, but in the balance, if moving up is seen as the best option, then it is.

The move to the Sun Belt is a slightly different story. After a few years there, I think both of your fan bases are going to be just as dissatisfied as they are now. I think the move to the SBC is a placeholder move; to get into FBS first, then eventually to move to different conferences. Down the road I think this will be easier for ASU than for GSU (solely for geographical reasons).

My sentiments exactly.

[citdog]

My sentiments exactly.



actually it will be easier for GSU. Savannah actually has an airport.

[Catatonic]

"Seismic" changes coming. Sooner rather than later. GSU and Appalachian State may join FBS, just in time to watch the Big 5 conferences break away to form a new Super Division.

I'm not ready to sign on to the belief that " GSU and ASU are spending a lot of effort to ultimately get no further ahead," but it appears they are at significant risk of doing just that.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130725/college-sports-braces-for-more-change/

[URMite]

I think you might want to invest in one of those Jump To Conclusions mats. Here are your answers with a number of rebuttal questions.

1- If the FCS playoffs go away - and I haven't heard or read anything of substance that says they will - I will be happy to see the Spiders compete for CAA championships. Perhaps there would be an opportunity for some other postseason game. Who knows?
2- We get about $350k for playing Virginia every other year. It's a big help but we'd find a way to survive if that revenue stream went away. And I don't think that revenue stream is going away. Who will Virginia play instead of Richmond one Saturday in September? How will it benefit the Wahoos?

I think he may be looking at this a bit differently.

What if...in 5 years, the NCAA only sponsors one postseason for the combined FCS & G5(MAC, CUSA, et al)? Do many of the G5 have larger budgets than many FCS? Would many FCS need to increase their budgets to compete?

I'm not sure a combined playoff would greatly reduce the FCS teams' access, since anywhere from a 17-32 team format all requires the same number of weeks. Maybe he was thinking a flood of newly eligible teams would reduce access.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What if...in 5 years, the NCAA only sponsors one postseason for the combined FCS & G5(MAC, CUSA, et al)? Do many of the G5 have larger budgets than many FCS? Would many FCS need to increase their budgets to compete?

That's what the NCAA does now. They don't sponsor any of the bowls, only the FCS playoffs at the Division I level.

[SpiritCymbal]

I'm not sure a combined playoff would greatly reduce the FCS teams' access, since anywhere from a 17-32 team format all requires the same number of weeks. Maybe he was thinking a flood of newly eligible teams would reduce access.
Certainly the "at large" bids enjoyed by the BS #2-3; SoCon #2-3; CAA #2-3; etc... would go to more "G5" teams. Perhaps auto-bids for some of the weaker conferences would be taken away as well?

Programs that are content with 1-aa for now may be forced to decide if they're going to increase their budgets to keep up or face their own decision to drop down?

All just questions.....not making any kind of "statements".

[URMite]

That's what the NCAA does now. They don't sponsor any of the bowls, only the FCS playoffs at the Division I level.

True, but the G5 teams aren't eligible for the FCS playoffs. What if the G5 wants a playoff and the NCAA will only sponsor one combined one?

[Eagle22]

I think you might want to invest in one of those Jump To Conclusions mats. Here are your answers with a number of rebuttal questions.

1- If the FCS playoffs go away - and I haven't heard or read anything of substance that says they will - I will be happy to see the Spiders compete for CAA championships. Perhaps there would be an opportunity for some other postseason game. Who knows?
2- We get about $350k for playing Virginia every other year. It's a big help but we'd find a way to survive if that revenue stream went away. And I don't think that revenue stream is going away. Who will Virginia play instead of Richmond one Saturday in September? How will it benefit the Wahoos?

My questions were presented with the following statement preceding it:

"If we assume both of the above premises are true, here are my questions for the remaining fans of FCS:"

There have been a lot of straw-men arguments thrown out there why the GSU and ASU moves are bad. I'm just playing along, and saying if we assume those are correct ... let's see the natural progression from that point because IF realignment waves cascade further down and reset the margins at which teams compete, it will certainly affect the constitution of the leagues as they sit today. Surely you don't think everything stays the same in a vacuum.

Frankly, I'm not jumping to any conclusions. If you knew me personally, you'd understand that is not my style. I'm more prone to sitting back and watching things unfold, but I have come to the conclusion after being a fan of the division for the past 30 years, that the small efforts by the NCAA on behalf of the I-AA/FCS subdivision are not sufficient enough to keep enough teams like GSU and ASU satisfied, to the point that they seek out change.

[citdog]

My questions were presented with the following statement preceding it:

"If we assume both of the above premises are true, here are my questions for the remaining fans of FCS:"

There have been a lot of straw-men arguments thrown out there why the GSU and ASU moves are bad. I'm just playing along, and saying if we assume those are correct ... let's see the natural progression from that point because IF realignment waves cascade further down and reset the margins at which teams compete, it will certainly affect the constitution of the leagues as they sit today. Surely you don't think everything stays the same in a vacuum.

Frankly, I'm not jumping to any conclusions. If you knew me personally, you'd understand that is not my style. I'm more prone to sitting back and watching things unfold, but I have come to the conclusion after being a fan of the division for the past 30 years, that the small efforts by the NCAA on behalf of the I-AA/FCS subdivision are not sufficient enough to keep enough teams like GSU and ASU satisfied, to the point that they seek out change.


keep you satisfied? what you people don't understand is that this subdivision IS BIGGER THAN THE TWO OF YOU AND WILL BE JUST FINE WITHOUT YOU.


MY ATTITUDE, AS EXPRESSED BEFORE, IS........




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhQql-ZbZmg

[Tod]

True, but the G5 teams aren't eligible for the FCS playoffs. What if the G5 wants a playoff and the NCAA will only sponsor one combined one?

I hope they will just end up with a 32 team playoff ala March Madness. The vast majority of the money would still go to the top five conferences.

[Eagle22]

keep you satisfied? what you people don't understand is that this subdivision IS BIGGER THAN THE TWO OF YOU AND WILL BE JUST FINE WITHOUT YOU.




For someone who acts so nonplussed, you sure do comment a bunch on this subject ;)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

True, but the G5 teams aren't eligible for the FCS playoffs. What if the G5 wants a playoff and the NCAA will only sponsor one combined one?

If the G5 (here meaning MAC, Sun Belt, et. al) want a playoff or their own bowls they are free to break off in their own subdivision to see what the market will bear.

It is an interesting question as to what the NCAA would do to come up with new scholarship requirements, sanction an NCAA playoff, etc, for a combined subdivision. But if they're "forced" into FCS they could be be given the opportunity to compete in FCS under FCS's rules.

[citdog]

For someone who acts so nonplussed, you sure do comment a bunch on this subject ;)


for people with one foot out of the door y'all sure like posting threads about it.

[Tod]

If the G5 (here meaning MAC, Sun Belt, et. al) want a playoff or their own bowls they are free to break off in their own subdivision to see what the market will bear.

It is an interesting question as to what the NCAA would do to come up with new scholarship requirements, sanction an NCAA playoff, etc, for a combined subdivision. But if they're "forced" into FCS they could be be given the opportunity to compete in FCS under FCS's rules.

No way are they forced to give up 22 scholarships and, if the school is Title IX compliant, 22 women's scholarships.

The top 5 may have all the $$$ power, but when it comes to screwing over the G5 (whatever that means), they will have some political power, and ****'s gonna get ugly.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Maybe. I just can't see the NCAA adding another subclassification.

It's coming. It seems like it's becoming a fact more and more everyday. At media days commissioners are openly talking to the media about a third level in FBS. They are talking about the BCS having a top level, then FBS, and then FCS. Meaning, if you are in FCS and want to be in that second level you must be in FBS, otherwise you will be in the third level. People already think FCS is D2 so if there are 3 levels within D1 people are going to think that the Sun Belt, C-USA, etc are a second division.

[Saint3333]

I would actually prefer three subdivisions. Unfortunately there are way too members of the G5 conferences that think they should be part of the P5 group.

[Catatonic]

My questions were presented with the following statement preceding it:

"If we assume both of the above premises are true, here are my questions for the remaining fans of FCS:"

There have been a lot of straw-men arguments thrown out there why the GSU and ASU moves are bad. I'm just playing along, and saying if we assume those are correct ... let's see the natural progression from that point because IF realignment waves cascade further down and reset the margins at which teams compete, it will certainly affect the constitution of the leagues as they sit today. Surely you don't think everything stays the same in a vacuum.

Frankly, I'm not jumping to any conclusions. If you knew me personally, you'd understand that is not my style. I'm more prone to sitting back and watching things unfold, but I have come to the conclusion after being a fan of the division for the past 30 years, that the small efforts by the NCAA on behalf of the I-AA/FCS subdivision are not sufficient enough to keep enough teams like GSU and ASU satisfied, to the point that they seek out change.

Here is an argument made of cold, stone cold fact, no straw anywhere in site:

Neither school will ever again come close enough to sniff, much less play for, a national championship in football. The best they can hope for is a match up against a Big 5 also-ran in a top-tier bowl, and the odds are stacked against any team from the Sun Belt ever making it that far.

This fact would give me pause about moving up, but that's just me.

[Catatonic]

It's coming. It seems like it's becoming a fact more and more everyday. At media days commissioners are openly talking to the media about a third level in FBS. They are talking about the BCS having a top level, then FBS, and then FCS. Meaning, if you are in FCS and want to be in that second level you must be in FBS, otherwise you will be in the third level. People already think FCS is D2 so if there are 3 levels within D1 people are going to think that the Sun Belt, C-USA, etc are a second division.

I would say to most fans of college football there is the Big 5 and everyone else. I would be fun to do a random poll of college football fans to see if they really understand teams from the Sun Belt play at a different level than FCS schools.

[Saint3333]

Here is an argument made of cold, stone cold fact, no straw anywhere in site:

Neither school will ever again come close enough to sniff, much less play for, a national championship in football. The best they can hope for is a match up against a Big 5 also-ran in a top-tier bowl, and the odds are stacked against any team from the Sun Belt ever making it that far.

This fact would give me pause about moving up, but that's just me.

So you believe the big boys aren't going to break away? The bowl system isn't feasible without the P5 conferences. Without them the next tier will more than likely have a playoff. Our move has guaranteed our spot at the second tier.

[Catatonic]

So you believe the big boys aren't going to break away? The bowl system isn't feasible without the P5 conferences. Without them the next tier will more than likely have a playoff. Our move has guaranteed our spot at the second tier.

I am always reluctant to predict what might or might not happen in college football. I do believe major changes are coming. My best guess is these changes will be within the NCAA structure, with the big boys forming their own super division. Will this result in a playoff for mid-majors? I dunno. As others have noted, it is difficult to imagine the NCAA sanctioning another money sucking playoff system, although the NCAA continues to make decisions that defy logic, so who knows?

If I were part of your fan base, I would not want my school to base its decision to move up on what the NCAA might do in the future. I hasten to add that I support your right to chart your own destiny and hold no grudges against any school that moves up. Texas State's decision to leave the Southland left a spot for my school to fill, so who am I to complain about schools in search of greener pastures?

[Saint3333]

There will be a postseason opportunity for the second tier, playoffs at host sites are more feasible than bowl games for those schools. No one can see the future but given the landscape our leaders have made a decision based upon what they see happening down the line. If a split doesn't occur we are in a good spot, if a split does occur we are also.

The FCS playoff participants lose money become the attendance is so poor, but if you have teams that average 25k vs. 10k playing you at least break even.

[walliver]

Getting back to the original question.

1) If there was no post-season, I would still donate to the Terrier Club, still buy season tickets and a parking pass, and still have fun tailgating with family and friends. I doubt Wofford's attendance or fundraising would be affected meaningfully.

2) If there were no money games against Big 5 teams, the loss of $300,000 - $400,000 would have some effect. On the other hand, if a competitive FCS team is completely dependent on a money game to stay afloat, maybe non-scholarship football is a better option. The money lost might represent a drop of 10-15 scholarships if no other savings could be had, but that still leaves good players on the field, and you can only play 11 at a time anyway.

The Citadel plays in the post-season once every generation, it still has one of the highest attendances in the country when adjusted for school size. I like the playoffs, but they are not essential.

My gut feeling (guess) is that the Big 5 will get there own division (not subdivision). If the SEC gives money to football players, the Title IX people will be demanding money for women also - essentially all scholarship athletes will get money, which will change the landscape of college basketball. Will the new Big East and other big-time BB conferences be allowed to join? This could be a sticking point.

Gang of 5 playing other G5 teams in bowl games will not generate profitable ratings for ESPN and the G5 will end up with a 16 team playoff (maybe not immediately, but within 5-10 years). Current G5 conferences likely will realign geographically as the TV payouts decrease. Some FCS teams/conferences may move up. Remaining FBS conferences will reduce scholarships to 70-75, and FCS will drop to 50-55. All the games will be just as enjoyable to watch.

[DoWe]

Here is an argument made of cold, stone cold fact, no straw anywhere in site:

Neither school will ever again come close enough to sniff, much less play for, a national championship in football. The best they can hope for is a match up against a Big 5 also-ran in a top-tier bowl, and the odds are stacked against any team from the Sun Belt ever making it that far.

This fact would give me pause about moving up, but that's just me.

That probably is just you, and others that feel good about starting every season playoff eligible whether your team stands even the slightest chance of sniffing a FCS title or not. The two schools in question have probably reconciled this in their minds considering they are no strangers to such.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People have accurately pointed out that the NCAA is not going to sponsor two Division I football championships. But they won't sponsor two Division I championships precisely because they are all Division I schools.

FBS currently has an outside entity sponsor the Crystal Ball trophy game. That unsanctioned championship is not run by the NCAA.

If the BIG 5 break off, the Crystal Ball people and all the bowls go with them. The little 5 then have a choice: see what the market will bear for another outside entity to sponsor the ULL/Northern Illlinois Bowl series, or join the existing Division I National Championship series, the FCS.

From there the NCAA has a choice: set new scholarship limits, make more subdivisions, etc.

The question, "Will they have a playoff system for mid-majors?" is the wrong question. Of course they will - they already do, it's called the FCS. But the nature of the FCS IMO will probably have to change if the Sun Belt, MAC, and (more to the point) the AAC and Mountain West are essentially ripped from the BIG 5.

[Saint3333]

Getting back to the original question.

1) If there was no post-season, I would still donate to the Terrier Club, still buy season tickets and a parking pass, and still have fun tailgating with family and friends. I doubt Wofford's attendance or fundraising would be affected meaningfully.

2) If there were no money games against Big 5 teams, the loss of $300,000 - $400,000 would have some effect. In the other hand, if a competitive FCS team is completely dependent on a money game to stay afloat, mayby non-scholarship football is a better option. The money lost might represent a drop of 10-15 scholarships if no other savings could be had, but that still leaves good players on the field, and you can only play 11 at a time anyway.

The Citadel plays in the post-season once every generation, it still has one of the highest attendances in the country when adjusted for school size. I like the playoffs, but they are not essential.

My gut feeling (guess) is that the Big 5 will get there own division (not subdivision). If the SEC gives money to football players, the Title IX people will be demanding money for women also - essentially all scholarship athletes will get money, which will change the landscape of college basketball. Will the new Big East and other big-time BB conferences be allowed to join? This could be a sticking point.

Gang of 5 playing other G5 teams in bowl games will not generate profitable ratings for ESPN and the G5 will end up with a 16 team playoff (maybe not immediately, but within 5-10 years). Current G5 conferences likely will realign geographically as the TV payouts decrease. Some FCS teams/conferences may move up. Remaining FBS conferences will reduce scholarships to 70-75, and FCS will drop to 50-55. All the games will be just as enjoyable to watch.

Very realistic post, again no crystal ball here but that is the most likely scenario over the next ten years.

[Catatonic]

There will be a postseason opportunity for the second tier, playoffs at host sites are more feasible than bowl games for those schools. No one can see the future but given the landscape our leaders have made a decision based upon what they see happening down the line. If a split doesn't occur we are in a good spot, if a split does occur we are also.

The FCS playoff participants lose money become the attendance is so poor, but if you have teams that average 25k vs. 10k playing you at least break even.

Speaking of your leaders, they should negotiate movie rights to the "Appy State" beats mighty Michigan story, a Rudy or Hoosiers saga if ever there was one. Makes my top 5 list of most memorable moments in college football history list.

[kalm]

Catatonic is making a whole bunch of sense in this thread. xnodx

[AppMan]

Getting back to the original question.

1) If there was no post-season, I would still donate to the Terrier Club, still buy season tickets and a parking pass, and still have fun tailgating with family and friends. I doubt Wofford's attendance or fundraising would be affected meaningfully.

2) If there were no money games against Big 5 teams, the loss of $300,000 - $400,000 would have some effect. In the other hand, if a competitive FCS team is completely dependent on a money game to stay afloat, mayby non-scholarship football is a better option. The money lost might represent a drop of 10-15 scholarships if no other savings could be had, but that still leaves good players on the field, and you can only play 11 at a time anyway.

The Citadel plays in the post-season once every generation, it still has one of the highest attendances in the country when adjusted for school size. I like the playoffs, but they are not essential.

My gut feeling (guess) is that the Big 5 will get there own division (not subdivision). If the SEC gives money to football players, the Title IX people will be demanding money for women also - essentially all scholarship athletes will get money, which will change the landscape of college basketball. Will the new Big East and other big-time BB conferences be allowed to join? This could be a sticking point.

Gang of 5 playing other G5 teams in bowl games will not generate profitable ratings for ESPN and the G5 will end up with a 16 team playoff (maybe not immediately, but within 5-10 years). Current G5 conferences likely will realign geographically as the TV payouts decrease. Some FCS teams/conferences may move up. Remaining FBS conferences will reduce scholarships to 70-75, and FCS will drop to 50-55. All the games will be just as enjoyable to watch.

I agree, with some some exceptions. The NCAA will give into the demands and form another division for the P5 conferences. They will implement an 8 team playoff utilizing the 7 major bowls. Way too much money at stake not to. The G5 conferences will follow with their own playoff using some of the the second tier bowls. I see the days of P5 schools playing FCS teams are over. G5 schools will continue playing FCS schools, but the guarantees will be much less. Other than the playoffs FCS TV games on regular medium are going to be hard to find. With revenues down the FCS will have some hard decisions to make. I see no way around reducing scholarships, probably to around 50. It could make FCS more competitive within the division. This is what App State and Ga Southern see coming and so hasty to move. IMO, after the few remaining FBS slots are filled the movement up will be over. I also think TV revenue for G5 schools will be less and conferences will realign into regional groups. Don't know if I'm on board with the G5 conferences dropping to 75 scholarships. It would save around $175-200K (average of in & out of state tuition - based on 12 hours per semester -, fees, housing and best meal plan for 10 scholarships) at App. Is that enough to make those cuts when P5 game guarantees are still out there?

[WileECoyote06]

I agree, with some some exceptions. The NCAA will give into the demands and form another division for the P5 conferences. They will implement an 8 team playoff utilizing the 7 major bowls. Way too much money at stake not to. The G5 conferences will follow with their own playoff using some of the the second tier bowls. I see the days of P5 schools playing FCS teams are over. G5 schools will continue playing FCS schools, but the guarantees will be much less. Other than the playoffs FCS TV games on regular medium are going to be hard to find. With revenues down the FCS will have some hard decisions to make. I see no way around reducing scholarships, probably to around 50. It could make FCS more competitive within the division. This is what App State and Ga Southern see coming and so hasty to move. IMO, after the few remaining FBS slots are filled the movement up will be over. I also think TV revenue for G5 schools will be less and conferences will realign into regional groups. Don't know if I'm on board with the G5 conferences dropping to 75 scholarships. It would save around $175-200K (average of in & out of state tuition - based on 12 hours per semester -, fees, housing and best meal plan for 10 scholarships) at App. Is that enough to make those cuts when P5 game guarantees are still out there?

I said something similar to this months ago, and people thought I was crazy.

[blueballs]

I heard a lot of feedback from football fans I know here in Central FL when GSU announced the move. My friends range from HS coaches to parents to HS refs to retired players from the three major sports to former UCF players and everybody in between.

They don't know about Keel's vision for the university and they don't care. The overwhelming response I got went like this: "Congratulations but that is a shame. GSU was special and unique in small school football. Now they're going to be just another small fish in a big pond playing for nothing. It will never be the same again."

FWIW I agree with that sentiment.

[CID1990]

I heard a lot of feedback from football fans I know here in Central FL when GSU announced the move. My friends range from HS coaches to parents to HS refs to retired players from the three major sports to former UCF players and everybody in between.

They don't know about Keel's vision for the university and they don't care. The overwhelming response I got went like this: "Congratulations but that is a shame. GSU was special and unique in small school football. Now they're going to be just another small fish in a big pond playing for nothing. It will never be the same again."

FWIW I agree with that sentiment.

Well that's true, in a sense. But a FCS national championship isn't THE national championship. The beauty of it is that GSU in the FCS can consider all the other great FCS teams as their peers, and the hope of a national championship is always a realistic one, or at least one or two seasons of rebuilding away.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[SpiritCymbal]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/9518511/missouri-valley-commissioner-patty-viverito-says-schedule-ban-kill-fcs


DES MOINES, Iowa -- Missouri Valley Football Conference commissioner Patty Viverito says plans by some power conferences to phase out games against FCS opponents won't be a "death knell."

Viverito acknowledged Monday that the expected loss of revenue-generating road games against schools from the Big Ten and other major conferences in the near future won't be a good development for the Championship Subdivision.

Viverito says Valley schools will continue to seek out "guarantee" games.

Viverito says she's hopeful that power programs will continue to schedule FCS teams instead of lower-level FBS opponents. She says the selection criteria for the expanded FCS playoffs should further clarify the quality of FCS in relation to smaller FBS leagues.

[AppMan]

I said something similar to this months ago, and people thought I was crazy.

Join the club.

[klak]

There's an interesting dynamic at play in this thread.

Several people have said that if the FCS playoffs went away, it would not affect their giving, their attendance, or their school.

Yet App and GS are throwing away an opportunity at the playoffs by moving up.

So are the FCS playoffs a big deal, or are they not?

[blueballs]

There's an interesting dynamic at play in this thread.

Several people have said that if the FCS playoffs went away, it would not affect their giving, their attendance, or their school.

Yet App and GS are throwing away an opportunity at the playoffs by moving up.

So are the FCS playoffs a big deal, or are they not?

To me, as a fan, they are. The playoffs are what is unique about FCS and the lower divisions vs. FBS/BCS.

What made GSU special is the playoffs and that's where the legends are made on this level... Erk & Tracy, Raymond Gross, AP, etc.

Everybody here is dyed in the wool fans of a program, a legacy, or an alumnus or all three so they will continue to support the programs and donate regardless; but for those of us who have been fortunate to have our favorite team have playoff success there is nothing like it.

That's why I have conflicting opinions about GSU moving up. I fully understand the move, and Keel's reasoning is absolutely correct. It is the right thing to do. However, as a fan I hate it because we'll never experience the playoffs again, and with that GSU football is giving up what made it special.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's why I have conflicting opinions about GSU moving up. I fully understand the move, and Keel's reasoning is absolutely correct. It is the right thing to do. However, as a fan I hate it because we'll never experience the playoffs again, and with that GSU football is giving up what made it special.

Not trolling here, but think about this: Every rivalry App and GSU will have at the Sun Belt level will have been forged in the playoffs. When App and GSU plays Marshall, playoffs. When they play Western Kentucky, playoffs. When they play each other, SoCon and (indirectly) playoffs. Might something emerge with UNCC? Maybe, but I would bet a duck dinner that it will never hold a candle to App/GSU or GSU/Marshall.

[Cleets]

I can tell you for sure: If FCS quit having a playoff system I'd be long gone...
It's damn near the only reason to be a part of this whole thing

[Eagle22]

Not trolling here, but think about this: Every rivalry App and GSU will have at the Sun Belt level will have been forged in the playoffs. When App and GSU plays Marshall, playoffs. When they play Western Kentucky, playoffs. When they play each other, SoCon and (indirectly) playoffs. Might something emerge with UNCC? Maybe, but I would bet a duck dinner that it will never hold a candle to App/GSU or GSU/Marshall.

Really ?

GSC played a ton of games vs. JMU, Troy, WKU, MTSU, UCF and ECU in regular season match ups through the years. We crossed paths a few times in the playoffs, but generally we knocked heads a lot when GSC was independent (pre-SoCon days).

That is what many of my generation (late 80's crowd in college) remember as our peer group from that time ... sure, there were a lot of other opponents that we played in and out of conference, but only WKU has left a fairly recent (11 years ago) loss on our doorstep. The rest, it will be rekindling some familiarity.

I also don't agree that we can't find at least one team to learn to respectfully despise as much as App ... I neither expect GSU to go in an roll through the Belt undefeated, nor do I expect us to roll-over. Lopsided series records are what extinguishes the opportunity for rivalries. I expect some healthy competition.

[Cleets]

I've hardly ever heard mention of a Sun Belt team / they go almost completely un-reported
and never actually seen a Sun Belt game televised

Seriously: Who..?
Arkansas State, Georgia State, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana-Monroe, South Alabama, Texas State, Western Kentucky and Troy

I hope the money is good because you're surly not doing it for the fame...

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

If the playoffs are so life or death important why are they so poorly attended? Spare me that Thanksgiving Holiday excuse. Thanksgiving is 2 days before the game and I'm not buying 60% of the fans - about the average decrease over reg season home attendance - are out of town the entire weekend.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

Not trolling here, but think about this: Every rivalry App and GSU will have at the Sun Belt level will have been forged in the playoffs. When App and GSU plays Marshall, playoffs. When they play Western Kentucky, playoffs. When they play each other, SoCon and (indirectly) playoffs. Might something emerge with UNCC? Maybe, but I would bet a duck dinner that it will never hold a candle to App/GSU or GSU/Marshall.

ASU has only faced GO5 teams 9 times in the playoffs. One each against Ga Southern and Marshall while they were in the SoCon. The others are Boise 1, MTSU 2, UMass 1, WKU 1 & Troy 1. We played GSU one time prior to them joining the SoCon. Our rivalry with Marshall and Ga Southern comes from conference games, not the playoffs.

[cmaxwellgsu]

I don't personally see the BCS boys splitting off. If the NCAA has a spine, they'll use March Madness to prevent it. That said, I see a few conferences losing their auto bid that they've waited years to get. I'd love to hear responses to Eagle22's questions from fans of the Big South, Patriot, and NEC.

[seantaylor]

Anyone who thinks that the P5 conferences can actually split from the NCAA is living in a different reality. There is no way it will happen for at least 100 different reasons.

[Twentysix]

If the playoffs are so life or death important why are they so poorly attended? Spare me that Thanksgiving Holiday excuse. Thanksgiving is 2 days before the game and I'm not buying 60% of the fans - about the average decrease over reg season home attendance - are out of town the entire weekend.

It's a ****ty time of year for everyone. NDSU drew 12,000 for our Thanksgiving game, but every playoff game not on t-day weekend has been a sellout.

[eaglewraith]

I've hardly ever heard mention of a Sun Belt team / they go almost completely un-reported
and never actually seen a Sun Belt game televised

Seriously: Who..?
Arkansas State, Georgia State, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana-Monroe, South Alabama, Texas State, Western Kentucky and Troy

I hope the money is good because you're surly not doing it for the fame...

Guess you missed ULM over Arkansas and WKU over Kentucky this past year then. I've seen several Sun Belt games on ESPN during the season.

You see what you want to see.

[Twentysix]

Guess you missed ULM over Arkansas and WKU over Kentucky this past year then. I've seen several Sun Belt games on ESPN during the season.

You see what you want to see.

You will get to see NDSU over K-State on Fox Sports 1 this season ;)

[dewey]

Here is an article from the Fargo Forum talking about the MVFC football media day and the conference commissioner talks alot about the jump from FCS to FBS.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/407524/

FARGO – Not so fast Georgia Southern or Appalachian State. Or any other Football Championship Subdivision team that has declared or is thinking of moving to the next level of Division I football.

The commissioner of the Missouri Valley Football Conference said Monday it’s possible her league may see those teams again one day. It all depends on the direction of the top five Football Bowl Subdivision conferences and recent language from the commissioners of those leagues has Patty Viverito thinking FBS has a possible shakeup in its near future.

“They made it clear, the ‘big five’ commissioners are demanding some serious change in the NCAA governance in order to guarantee they can spend their vast resources as they wish,” she said. “The other five FBS commissioners are trying to appease their ‘big five’ brethren and do all they can do to keep a seat at the table.”

The “big five” represent the Big Ten, Southeastern, Atlantic Coast, Pac-12 and Big 12 conferences. They are what Viverito called “high resource universities.”

She made her state-of-division comments in the annual pre-season Missouri Valley Football Conference teleconference. Viverito cited a “FCS to FBS” NCAA analysis, which quoted two studies that found FCS schools that reclassified to FBS generated more revenue “but in most cases expenses increased by a larger amount than generated revenues.”

“Let me repeat that,” Viverito said. “All of the folks that say they’re moving to FBS because there’s more money … yes, there is more revenue but the expenses are going to outstrip any gained revenues on average by $1 to $2 million per year.”

If the top five FBS leagues do pull away, the future of the second level of Division I football, Viverito said, could include the bottom five FBS conferences and FCS schools.

The Missouri Valley has largely been unaffected by the FCS-to-FBS movement, with the exception of Western Kentucky a decade ago.

“If a line is drawn to separate the top FBS from the rest, the Valley teams should fare well in the next level of Division I football, however it’s defined,” Viverito said. “I think it’s pretty clear the top FBS conferences look very different from the bottom five FBS conferences and I think the top of the FCS looks a whole lot more like the bottom of the FBS than the ones I mentioned first.”

Those bottom five FBS leagues are the Sun Belt, Mid-American, Conference USA, Mountain West and American Athletic. Georgia Southern and Appalachian State will join the Sun Belt next year.

They both, however, are ineligible for the FCS playoffs this season because of the reclassification.

“I can’t imagine the bottom half of the FBS is going to go along with that kind of realignment without a fight,” Viverito said. “But I do think the five commissioners of those high resource conferences have made it very clear that they want to be able to spend their money and govern themselves in a way that is unencumbered by the rest of Division I. And I think we look a lot like those other five leagues.”

Dewey

[PaladinFan]

Guess you missed ULM over Arkansas and WKU over Kentucky this past year then. I've seen several Sun Belt games on ESPN during the season.

You see what you want to see.

My argument is less about UL-M winning over Arksanas, and more about the fact that it took UL-M from 1994 until 2012 to have a winning season.

I agree, you see what you want to see. You see them beating an SEC team. I see that it took them nearly two decades to have a winning season. If Georgia Southern beats Arkansas in 2032, will it all be worth it?

[walliver]

I don't personally see the BCS boys splitting off. If the NCAA has a spine, they'll use March Madness to prevent it. That said, I see a few conferences losing their auto bid that they've waited years to get. I'd love to hear responses to Eagle22's questions from fans of the Big South, Patriot, and NEC.

The NCAA needs the Big 5 for March Madness. The Big 5 don't need March Madness.

If the Big 5 are allowed to "pay" football players, they will also need to play basketball players, primarily for Title IX reasons, which would make them ineligible for March Madness (unless all D-I schools are allowed to "pay" basketball players).

I also suspect a Big 5 BB championship would bring in more money than March Madness without the Big 5. The overwhelming majority of recent men's BB champions are currently in, or imminently joining, a Big 5 conference. Take away Louisville, UNC, Duke, Michigan, Florida, UCLA, Kansas, and Kentucky and how much interest does March Madness generate (hint: It would be the FCS of Men's Basketball).

In the end, I suspect the NCAA caves in and creates a new Division, but tries to work out some scheme to keep the Big 5 in March Madness.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I don't personally see the BCS boys splitting off. If the NCAA has a spine, they'll use March Madness to prevent it. That said, I see a few conferences losing their auto bid that they've waited years to get. I'd love to hear responses to Eagle22's questions from fans of the Big South, Patriot, and NEC.

The PL never had to "wait" for an auto bid. The conference decided, like the IL, not to participate. GSU would have at least one less championship if the ban did not exist....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The NCAA needs the Big 5 for March Madness. The Big 5 don't need March Madness.

If the Big 5 are allowed to "pay" football players, they will also need to play basketball players, primarily for Title IX reasons, which would make them ineligible for March Madness (unless all D-I schools are allowed to "pay" basketball players).

I also suspect a Big 5 BB championship would bring in more money than March Madness without the Big 5. The overwhelming majority of recent men's BB champions are currently in, or imminently joining, a Big 5 conference. Take away Louisville, UNC, Duke, Michigan, Florida, UCLA, Kansas, and Kentucky and how much interest does March Madness generate (hint: It would be the FCS of Men's Basketball).

In the end, I suspect the NCAA caves in and creates a new Division, but tries to work out some scheme to keep the Big 5 in March Madness.

The women's basketball tournament would crumble without UConn....

[eaglewraith]

My argument is less about UL-M winning over Arksanas, and more about the fact that it took UL-M from 1994 until 2012 to have a winning season.

I agree, you see what you want to see. You see them beating an SEC team. I see that it took them nearly two decades to have a winning season. If Georgia Southern beats Arkansas in 2032, will it all be worth it?

ULM is historically a **** team. The problem with looking at all the previous move-ups is that none have been consistently good at winning football games before the move. They may have had good season, but they were nothing like us and App at the time of moving.

It's no guarantee that we'll be successful right away, but I would say it's more likely that we are.

[AppMan]

Does anyone take Patty Viverito serious? She says the MVFC looks like the SB?

Average stadium size: SB 29,000 - MVFC 14,800.

Average attendance: SB 21,000 - MVFC 10,600.

[ASUMountaineer]

Not trolling here, but think about this: Every rivalry App and GSU will have at the Sun Belt level will have been forged in the playoffs. When App and GSU plays Marshall, playoffs. When they play Western Kentucky, playoffs. When they play each other, SoCon and (indirectly) playoffs. Might something emerge with UNCC? Maybe, but I would bet a duck dinner that it will never hold a candle to App/GSU or GSU/Marshall.

Good thing Michigan/Ohio State and Yale/Harvard, or any FBS rivalry had playoffs to forge those rivalries or there'd be no rivalry to speak of. Oh wait...

[ASUMountaineer]

My argument is less about UL-M winning over Arksanas, and more about the fact that it took UL-M from 1994 until 2012 to have a winning season.

I agree, you see what you want to see. You see them beating an SEC team. I see that it took them nearly two decades to have a winning season. If Georgia Southern beats Arkansas in 2032, will it all be worth it?

Why does that matter? Western has sucked for years...c'mon man. You don't have to like FBS football, but at least be reasonable.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Good thing Michigan/Ohio State and Yale/Harvard, or any FBS rivalry had playoffs to forge those rivalries or there'd be no rivalry to speak of. Oh wait...

Ping me back when App State has an 130 year old rivalry to call their own... xlolx

More seriously, ASU's oldest rivals (i.e. more than 80 years old) are WCU, ECU, and ETSU, none of whom are in the Sun Belt. One only recently restarted football, one has been almost completely noncompetitive, and the third is now in the AAC.

[Bisonator]

Is it football season yet???

xblahxxblahxxblahxxblahxxarguexxblahxxblahxxblahxx blahxxarguexxblahxxblahxxblahxxblahx

[ASUMountaineer]

Ping me back when App State has an 130 year old rivalry to call their own... xlolx

More seriously, ASU's oldest rivals (i.e. more than 80 years old) are WCU, ECU, and ETSU, none of whom are in the Sun Belt. One only recently restarted football, one has been almost completely noncompetitive, and the third is now in the AAC.

I noticed you chose to ignore the "or any FBS rivalry" part of my post--try again.

More seriously, none of those three App State rivalries you mentioned were "forged in the playoffs." Most rivalries rise from within your conference and/or from repetition, not from the playoffs--especially at the FBS level. No rivalry we form will be stronger than GSU, at least for a long time, but that has nothing to do with the playoffs. xlolx

We haven't played Marshall in a decade and have no rivalry at all with WKU, which will not be a member of the SBC when we officially join. Your post made no sense and was irrelevant. How about trying to make a reasonable statement or a logical point and then you can ping me back.

[ASUMountaineer]

Is it football season yet???

xblahxxblahxxblahxxblahxxarguexxblahxxblahxxblahxx blahxxarguexxblahxxblahxxblahxxblahx

Not yet. xbangx

[Hammerhead]

Most students go home for Thanksgiving break or if they were like me, trying to pick up extra hours at work to pay for tuition when school was not in session. Many NDSU fans live in Minnesota and may want to attend the Minnesota high school championships that are traditionally held Thanksgiving weekend at the Metrodome.


If the playoffs are so life or death important why are they so poorly attended? Spare me that Thanksgiving Holiday excuse. Thanksgiving is 2 days before the game and I'm not buying 60% of the fans - about the average decrease over reg season home attendance - are out of town the entire weekend.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I noticed you chose to ignore the "or any FBS rivalry" part of my post--try again.

More seriously, none of those three App State rivalries you mentioned were "forged in the playoffs." Most rivalries rise from within your conference and/or from repetition, not from the playoffs--especially at the FBS level. No rivalry we form will be stronger than GSU, at least for a long time, but that has nothing to do with the playoffs. xlolx

We haven't played Marshall in a decade and have no rivalry at all with WKU, which will not be a member of the SBC when we officially join. Your post made no sense and was irrelevant. How about trying to make a reasonable statement or a logical point and then you can ping me back.

You can choose to believe that ASU, GSU and Marshall are not partially defined by their national championships at the I-AA/FCS level, and that it was only the glory of SoCon titles that matter to you guys, and the singular win against Michigan, not the playoffs. But it's clearly untrue, especially of Georgia "Six Flags Over Statesboro" Southern.

If, as you yourself say, your biggest Sun Belt rival will be GSU, that was forged in FCS and the SoCon, and unquestionably involved the playoffs in some way. In fact you can argue that the Sun Belt, devoid of natural rivalries, are importing this one.

[PaladinFan]

Why does that matter? Western has sucked for years...c'mon man. You don't have to like FBS football, but at least be reasonable.

It is completely reasonable. The question is not whether UL-M is a good football team now. App and GSU folks can cite to current SunBelt statistics all day long, but the reality is that for a lot of these transitioning programs it was 15-20 years of rebuilding before they could beat (a very down) Arkansas team.

That is where the disconnect is. Pro-FBS folks look at the here and now (i.e. UL-M beat Arksanas and WKU beat Kentucky). The Pro-FCS folks look at the fact you'll likely spend 15 years where 6-6 is going to be your best season in the hopes of one day having no one remember you beat a bad SEC team.

Again, and I've said this 100 times, that fact does not matter to either App or GSU. They understand that reality. They accept it. Occupational hazard.

[PhillyApp1]

Ping me back when App State has an 130 year old rivalry to call their own... xlolx

More seriously, ASU's oldest rivals (i.e. more than 80 years old) are WCU, ECU, and ETSU, none of whom are in the Sun Belt. One only recently restarted football, one has been almost completely noncompetitive, and the third is now in the AAC.

Another example of your intelligence xeyebrowx ...sorry, I couldn't resist ....GO EAGLES and Chip Kelly...maybe we can agree on this ;-)

[Saint3333]

You are correct App doesn't have a rival of 100+ years. That is because we have grown as a university during that time from an Academy of 40 students in a small mountain town into a teachers college in the 40's through 70's, into a top regional university in the southeast, and now look to grow even more.

That growth and improvement and not afforded App to maintain rivalries. I certainly don't view that as a negative.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You are correct App doesn't have a rival of 100+ years. That is because we have grown as a university during that time from an Academy of 40 students in a small mountain town into a teachers college in the 40's through 70's, into a top regional university in the southeast, and now look to grow even more.

That growth and improvement and not afforded App to maintain rivalries. I certainly don't view that as a negative.

True enough. xthumbsupx

[ASUMountaineer]

You can choose to believe that ASU, GSU and Marshall are not partially defined by their national championships at the I-AA/FCS level, and that it was only the glory of SoCon titles that matter to you guys, and the singular win against Michigan, not the playoffs. But it's clearly untrue, especially of Georgia "Six Flags Over Statesboro" Southern.

If, as you yourself say, your biggest Sun Belt rival will be GSU, that was forged in FCS and the SoCon, and unquestionably involved the playoffs in some way. In fact you can argue that the Sun Belt, devoid of natural rivalries, are importing this one.

Your assumptions are clearly false, and your backtracking is sad. It's also misrepresenting what you said.

So, let me pick your post apart for you:


You can choose to believe that ASU, GSU and Marshall are not partially defined by their national championships at the I-AA/FCS level, and that it was only the glory of SoCon titles that matter to you guys, and the singular win against Michigan, not the playoffs.

I never made any such statement, and you never made such a statement. You never mentioned defining the schools, only the rivalries. In fact, my posts only disagreed with you saying our rivalries were "forged in the playoffs."


If, as you yourself say, your biggest Sun Belt rival will be GSU, that was forged in FCS and the SoCon, and unquestionably involved the playoffs in some way.

Yeah, you're going to need to be more specific than "in some way." Of course the rivalry was forged in the FCS and the SoCon, and I have acknowledged as much. However, you insist on saying that our rivalry with GSU was "forged in the playoffs," while ignoring that we only played GSU once in the playoffs and got creamed. Try again.


In fact you can argue that the Sun Belt, devoid of natural rivalries, are importing this one.

Duh.

[ASUMountaineer]

It is completely reasonable. The question is not whether UL-M is a good football team now. App and GSU folks can cite to current SunBelt statistics all day long, but the reality is that for a lot of these transitioning programs it was 15-20 years of rebuilding before they could beat (a very down) Arkansas team.

That is where the disconnect is. Pro-FBS folks look at the here and now (i.e. UL-M beat Arksanas and WKU beat Kentucky). The Pro-FCS folks look at the fact you'll likely spend 15 years where 6-6 is going to be your best season in the hopes of one day having no one remember you beat a bad SEC team.

Again, and I've said this 100 times, that fact does not matter to either App or GSU. They understand that reality. They accept it. Occupational hazard.

Then why keep harping on it?

I never disagreed with your premise, only that it comes across as if you're saying this only occurs with FCS-to-FBS schools. I simply showed an example that demonstrates that there are historically bad teams across all levels of college football. The pro-FCS folks act as if this never happens to FCS schools.

[ASUMountaineer]

You are correct App doesn't have a rival of 100+ years. That is because we have grown as a university during that time from an Academy of 40 students in a small mountain town into a teachers college in the 40's through 70's, into a top regional university in the southeast, and now look to grow even more.

That growth and improvement and not afforded App to maintain rivalries. I certainly don't view that as a negative.

Excellent post Saint...much better than mine. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

More seriously, none of those three App State rivalries you mentioned were "forged in the playoffs"...


You can choose to believe that ASU, GSU and Marshall are not partially defined by their national championships at the I-AA/FCS level, and that it was only the glory of SoCon titles that matter to you guys, and the singular win against Michigan, not the playoffs. But it's clearly untrue, especially of Georgia "Six Flags Over Statesboro" Southern.

If, as you yourself say, your biggest Sun Belt rival will be GSU, that was forged in FCS and the SoCon, and unquestionably involved the playoffs in some way. In fact you can argue that the Sun Belt, devoid of natural rivalries, are importing this one.


I never made any such statement, and you never made such a statement. You never mentioned defining the schools, only the rivalries. In fact, my posts only disagreed with you saying our rivalries were "forged in the playoffs."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you still do need to go through the playoffs to win an FCS national championship, correct? It's schools that win championships, not conferences, and all of the meetings between ASU and GSU over the last decade and longer have had implications regarding the playoffs - which is precisely why there is a rivalry.

Maybe I should have said "forged by the playoffs" rather than "forged in the playoffs" and my point would have been better made.

[eaglewraith]

It is completely reasonable. The question is not whether UL-M is a good football team now. App and GSU folks can cite to current SunBelt statistics all day long, but the reality is that for a lot of these transitioning programs it was 15-20 years of rebuilding before they could beat (a very down) Arkansas team.

That is where the disconnect is. Pro-FBS folks look at the here and now (i.e. UL-M beat Arksanas and WKU beat Kentucky). The Pro-FCS folks look at the fact you'll likely spend 15 years where 6-6 is going to be your best season in the hopes of one day having no one remember you beat a bad SEC team.

Again, and I've said this 100 times, that fact does not matter to either App or GSU. They understand that reality. They accept it. Occupational hazard.

But looking at history, what teams have been successful to the level we have and transitioned? The teams that were OK/Mediocre transitioned and didn't do so well. Marshall is the exception, but even then they sold their souls to do it. WKU won a title yes, but then they were on a downswing when they started their transition.

We are one of, if not the, most successful programs to ever play in this division. No it doesn't guarantee success on the next level, but there is nothing to compare it too. The one thing we do know is that we know how to have a winning program on a consistent basis.

Everyone wants to compare us to all these teams that never really did anything. Hell Boise didn't do anything in FCS but they retooled themselves and took a GREAT approach to their transition that worked out for them after they got everything in place. We are starting at a higher point than pretty much anyone before us. Are we to just resign ourselves to being ULM for 30 years because that's what they did?

[ASUMountaineer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you still do need to go through the playoffs to win an FCS national championship, correct? It's schools that win championships, not conferences, and all of the meetings between ASU and GSU over the last decade and longer have had implications regarding the playoffs - which is precisely why there is a rivalry.

Maybe I should have said "forged by the playoffs" rather than "forged in the playoffs" and my point would have been better made.

I agree that it would have made a bit more sense had you used "by" instead of "in," but I still don't see it the same way.

As someone who is a fan or a team in the ASU/GSU rivalry it is clear that the rivalry is from repetition (playing each other yearly), constantly being highly ranked, having very close games, and usually fighting for the SoCon Championship. The National Championships factor in a very small amount, as GSU had all six before ASU ever got to a title game. I'm not sure the National Championships play as much into this rivalry as you believe it does. Familiarity and competitiveness against each other has done a lot more in building this rivalry than winning National Championships or competing against other OOC teams in the playoffs.

[PaladinFan]

But looking at history, what teams have been successful to the level we have and transitioned? The teams that were OK/Mediocre transitioned and didn't do so well. Marshall is the exception, but even then they sold their souls to do it. WKU won a title yes, but then they were on a downswing when they started their transition.

We are one of, if not the, most successful programs to ever play in this division. No it doesn't guarantee success on the next level, but there is nothing to compare it too. The one thing we do know is that we know how to have a winning program on a consistent basis.

Everyone wants to compare us to all these teams that never really did anything. Hell Boise didn't do anything in FCS but they retooled themselves and took a GREAT approach to their transition that worked out for them after they got everything in place. We are starting at a higher point than pretty much anyone before us. Are we to just resign ourselves to being ULM for 30 years because that's what they did?

It's a hard comparison. GSU has long been a big fish. They play in a conference with, by and large, schools a small fraction of their size. Their recruiting advantages are likely unparalleled in the FCS. I mean, it would be a shocker if they were not wildly successful.

Besides, GSU is probably not quite as good as you assume that they are. It has been, what, 14 seasons since their last national title. They are not running roughshod over the conference like they did in the early 2000s. It is far more of a grind now than it once was. This version of GSU is not as good now as Marshall was when they made the move.

At the end of the day, no one has any idea how they will do. The road trips are longer, the teams are better, and the recruiting advantages disappear. They may thrive, but more often than not the teams struggle. Even great teams might get off the mat quickly, but then struggle. They might be the exception. They might not.

[Cleets]

It's a hard comparison. GSU has long been a big fish. They play in a conference with, by and large, schools a small fraction of their size. Their recruiting advantages are likely unparalleled in the FCS. I mean, it would be a shocker if they were not wildly successful.

Besides, GSU is probably not quite as good as you assume that they are. It has been, what, 14 seasons since their last national title. They are not running roughshod over the conference like they did in the early 2000s. It is far more of a grind now than it once was. This version of GSU is not as good now as Marshall was when they made the move.

At the end of the day, no one has any idea how they will do. The road trips are longer, the teams are better, and the recruiting advantages disappear. They may thrive, but more often than not the teams struggle. Even great teams might get off the mat quickly, but then struggle. They might be the exception. They might not.

They're playing crap teams in a crap conference...
Teams they are already competitive against
They'll be fine

completely obscure but fine

[AppMan]

Most students go home for Thanksgiving break or if they were like me, trying to pick up extra hours at work to pay for tuition when school was not in session. Many NDSU fans live in Minnesota and may want to attend the Minnesota high school championships that are traditionally held Thanksgiving weekend at the Metrodome.

Your students would rather attend a HS game rather than the all important to die for FCS playoffs?

[walliver]

... Familiarity and competitiveness against each other has done a lot more in building this rivalry than winning National Championships or competing against other OOC teams in the playoffs.

I agree, rivalries develop from playing frequently. In fact, many of the biggest rivals in college football have rarely if ever met in the post-season (Texas-OU, UGA-GaTech, USC-UCLA, Mich-OSU, Army-Navy). More relevant, Alabama and Notre Dame are not rivals, nor are Florida and Ohio State.
I don't see ASU or GSU necessarily becoming rivals with Marshall. For the most part neither has played the Thundering Turd in a decade. Most younger fans have few if any memories of playing Marshall, MTSU, or Troy.

Both schools will develop FBS rivalries of some sort, but those rivalries will be determined by on the field experience, and the teams that both will play year-in and year-out will be Troy, GaSt, USA, and ?mystery 12th team.

A GSU-GSU rivalry would appear to be a natural, but unless Georgia State steps up their program, there may be no real rivalry.
I suspect many ASU fans would love a home-and-home rivalry with ECU, but I don't know if ECU feels the same (I doubt they do).
Rivalries will develop that are unexpected: How many fans would predict rivalries between ASU and Furman, or GSU and Furman?

[Saint3333]

The only rivalry App developed in the playoffs has been Montana. GSU - nope, Furman - nope, WCU - nope, JMU - nope.

There are only a handful of rivalries actually created by the playoffs. Team just don't play each other more than twice in the playoffs. Well other than UNH and UNI, which was strange.

[PaladinFan]

Your students would rather attend a HS game rather than the all important to die for FCS playoffs?

The attendance always drops across the board regardless of the reasons. Sometimes drastically at schools with larger student bodies. The locals and the alums still show up, but the students are long gone. I think App's attendance against last playoffs dropped by 50% for their home game.

[PaladinFan]

The only rivalry App developed in the playoffs has been Montana. GSU - nope, Furman - nope, WCU - nope, JMU - nope.

There are only a handful of rivalries actually created by the playoffs. Team just don't play each other more than twice in the playoffs. Well other than UNH and UNI, which was strange.

You can make an argument that GSU/Furman was a rivalry spawned from the playoffs. Of course, they ended up in the same conference, which helped.

[SpiritCymbal]

The only rivalry I'd say that GSU ever had from the playoffs would be Furman due to our first 2 meetings being for National Championships. But even then, if we didn't play each other every year since 1993, then I don't know if it would still be a "rivalry".

As for unexpected rivalries....I could see a possible rivalry starting up with Troy due to proximity and past history or even UL-L mostly b/c each fan base thinks they have the best tailgating. hahahaha....

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Just saying, most rivalry games in the FCS have never been played out in the playoffs.
The only rivalry games that have even been played out in the playoffs are GSU/ASU (twice), GSU/Furman (3 times), and Furman/ASU (once).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just saying, most rivalry games in the FCS have never been played out in the playoffs.
The only rivalry games that have even been played out in the playoffs are GSU/ASU (twice), GSU/Furman (3 times), and Furman/ASU (once).

True - I'm still waiting for Lehigh and Lafayette to meet in the FCS NCG. But you illustrate my point as to how important those games were in regards to developing GSU's and ASU's rivalry. You're also not including any regular season GSU/ASU games where the the playoffs at some level was on the line, which was, basically, every year (and in many years the game with Furman too, but not recently).

[URMite]

True - I'm still waiting for Lehigh and Lafayette to meet in the FCS NCG. But you illustrate my point as to how important those games were in regards to developing GSU's and ASU's rivalry. You're also not including any regular season GSU/ASU games where the the playoffs at some level was on the line, which was, basically, every year (and in many years the game with Furman too, but not recently).

So how about W&M vs Lafayette and UR vs Lehigh in the semifinals?

Although the next most played non-ivy game may be the most likely - Griz/Bobcats

[Saint3333]

True - I'm still waiting for Lehigh and Lafayette to meet in the FCS NCG. But you illustrate my point as to how important those games were in regards to developing GSU's and ASU's rivalry. You're also not including any regular season GSU/ASU games where the the playoffs at some level was on the line, which was, basically, every year (and in many years the game with Furman too, but not recently).

Just wait for there to be three subdivisions, it could be possible then. I'll be pulling for Lafayette, always respected that program after we played them in the playoffs.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

All I know is I'm an alum of an FBS school but enjoy FCS football more. In fact, when I was at Temple I'd drive 60 miles to go watch Lehigh play St. Mary's/Towson/Harvard etc instead of hopping on the subway to see Temple play Virginia Tech, Syracuse, Pitt etc. The Miami (FL) game I would not miss....

[Eagle22]

I agree that it would have made a bit more sense had you used "by" instead of "in," but I still don't see it the same way.

As someone who is a fan or a team in the ASU/GSU rivalry it is clear that the rivalry is from repetition (playing each other yearly), constantly being highly ranked, having very close games, and usually fighting for the SoCon Championship. The National Championships factor in a very small amount, as GSU had all six before ASU ever got to a title game. I'm not sure the National Championships play as much into this rivalry as you believe it does. Familiarity and competitiveness against each other has done a lot more in building this rivalry than winning National Championships or competing against other OOC teams in the playoffs.

Exactly. With a combined 4 National Championships between the two schools in the last 13 years, our paths have crossed in the playoffs a whopping one time. The Eagles went 2-0 that year vs. the Apps. The only other playoff meeting ? 1987, when GSC was independent.

Competitiveness of this series is what makes it a rivalry.

[eaglewraith]

It's a hard comparison. GSU has long been a big fish. They play in a conference with, by and large, schools a small fraction of their size. Their recruiting advantages are likely unparalleled in the FCS. I mean, it would be a shocker if they were not wildly successful.

Besides, GSU is probably not quite as good as you assume that they are. It has been, what, 14 seasons since their last national title. They are not running roughshod over the conference like they did in the early 2000s. It is far more of a grind now than it once was. This version of GSU is not as good now as Marshall was when they made the move.

At the end of the day, no one has any idea how they will do. The road trips are longer, the teams are better, and the recruiting advantages disappear. They may thrive, but more often than not the teams struggle. Even great teams might get off the mat quickly, but then struggle. They might be the exception. They might not.

We may not be winning championships. But the last 3 years we've been in double digit win categories and much closer than pretty much the entire division to winning a championship.

Everything is harder these days because of how the game has changed. We are still highly competitive though, and we're doing it without loading up with mercenaries like Marshall did. There still is no true comparison to put us against.

[blueballs]

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't either App or GSU or both advanced to at least the semis every year since 1998 except for 2003 and 2004?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't either App or GSU or both advanced to at least the semis every year since 1998 except for 2003 and 2004?

and 2008.

There is a playoff history link at the bottom right of the site just in case you want a quick reference.

[blueballs]

and 2008.

There is a playoff history link at the bottom right of the site just in case you want a quick reference.

Good stuff Ursus, thanks!

[AppMan]

You can choose to believe that ASU, GSU and Marshall are not partially defined by their national championships at the I-AA/FCS level, and that it was only the glory of SoCon titles that matter to you guys, and the singular win against Michigan, not the playoffs. But it's clearly untrue, especially of Georgia "Six Flags Over Statesboro" Southern.

If, as you yourself say, your biggest Sun Belt rival will be GSU, that was forged in FCS and the SoCon, and unquestionably involved the playoffs in some way. In fact you can argue that the Sun Belt, devoid of natural rivalries, are importing this one.

That is some major league redirecting and spinning to support a statement clearly been shown to be untrue, but I'll give you some serious style points for the attempt.

[AmsterBison]

Your students would rather attend a HS game rather than the all important to die for FCS playoffs?

Thankfully, we've only had one Thanksgiving weekend playoff game (although I'd like that more than not being in the playoffs at all.)

He was just speculating. Have you seen NDSU's playoff crowds? Announced attendance is pretty much seating capacity + standing room capacity - band (and whoever else gets in free for playoff games.)

[ASUMountaineer]

I agree, rivalries develop from playing frequently. In fact, many of the biggest rivals in college football have rarely if ever met in the post-season (Texas-OU, UGA-GaTech, USC-UCLA, Mich-OSU, Army-Navy). More relevant, Alabama and Notre Dame are not rivals, nor are Florida and Ohio State.
I don't see ASU or GSU necessarily becoming rivals with Marshall. For the most part neither has played the Thundering Turd in a decade. Most younger fans have few if any memories of playing Marshall, MTSU, or Troy.

Both schools will develop FBS rivalries of some sort, but those rivalries will be determined by on the field experience, and the teams that both will play year-in and year-out will be Troy, GaSt, USA, and ?mystery 12th team.

A GSU-GSU rivalry would appear to be a natural, but unless Georgia State steps up their program, there may be no real rivalry.
I suspect many ASU fans would love a home-and-home rivalry with ECU, but I don't know if ECU feels the same (I doubt they do).
Rivalries will develop that are unexpected: How many fans would predict rivalries between ASU and Furman, or GSU and Furman?

Exactly. Good post, walliver.

[ASUMountaineer]

True - I'm still waiting for Lehigh and Lafayette to meet in the FCS NCG. But you illustrate my point as to how important those games were in regards to developing GSU's and ASU's rivalry. You're also not including any regular season GSU/ASU games where the the playoffs at some level was on the line, which was, basically, every year (and in many years the game with Furman too, but not recently).

Familiarity and competitiveness is what makes a rivalry, not one or two meetings in the playoffs over a 30-year span.