Youngstown vs. Ohio State

[colgate13]

OSU AD comments (http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1118309671207412.xml&coll=2)

Some highlights:

"Ohio State Athletic Director Gene Smith said Wednesday the Buckeyes will continue playing in-state universities and may schedule Division I-AA Youngstown State in football and Cincinnati in men's basketball.

Smith said the game with Youngstown State also will get done because, "I am a believer in I-AA football."

I think that's great for Youngstown and Ohio State... Very different than that Pitt writer who thought a I-AA game would be horrible. In my eyes, some of the biggest I-A/I-AA games that make sense are the regional rivalries.

[purduecrum]

I think that's great for Youngstown and Ohio State... Very different than that Pitt writer who thought a I-AA game would be horrible. In my eyes, some of the biggest I-A/I-AA games that make sense are the regional rivalries.

How many I-A teams are in the state of Ohio already?

Miami (OH) MAC
Cincinnatti (Big East)
Bowling Green MAC
Toledo MAC
Ohio MAC

With the exception of the Ohio Bobcats, each of these other teams have been to bowl games and have put a scare in to Ohio State in the past. The scheduling of Youngstown State (while a quality I-AA team) is strictly for the ticket sales, low payout, and the W.

I think YSU versus the above mentioned teams is of more interest than a whoopin' by OSU.

[Pen Guin]

You also forgot about Kent & Akron, also our 2 biggest rivals. There are not too many states with more IA teams than Ohio. We have played all of the teams mentioned except OSU. However, in the last 50 years, we have played Akron 34 times, and Kent 14 times. The bottom line is that all of these upper-end IA games are idiotic. However, if everyone else in the conference is taking their payday, we need to as well.

The biggest issue, is that they are not limiting the payouts ... so as long as Pitt and OSU are offering $300k+, we cannot afford to play our biggest rivals, as we would only see about $125k. Set a maximum and minimum payout, and see how fast I-AA schools drop these games. If more of you people lived in IA mid-major regions, you would see what a futile move all of this IA/I-AA combining really is. You are the first to insult YSU when we play "a lowly MAC school" ... just what do you think your school will be if it moves up, a BCS power program? ... Certain coaches are saying "I-AA is a 'bad rap' that effects our recruiting...". "...Oh it's only football tha is I-AA ...". The truth is, it's only a move that will increase your required budgets by 40% or 50%. Think before you act.

All of these coaches bragging about how they are DI in all other sports & how well they are doing. Just how well do you think these non-football sports will be without any money, as it is all spent on supporting a fledgling IA football program? Has it ever dawned on you that is is being I-AA in football (with I-AA budget/scholarship caps) that helps your schools non-football sports do so well for their size?

[JohnStOnge]

I disagree with the below. Youngstown State as a I-AA is 15-9-1 against I-A teams from Ohio (6-2 vs. Akron, 1-1 vs. Bowling Green, 2-2 vs. Cincinnati, 4-4 vs. Kent State, 2-0 vs. Ohio). Playing Youngstown State is comparable to playing a MAC team in terms of liklihood of having an entertaining game vs. having a boring blowout.

And I think that once one gets over the false assumptions about what it means to play a I-AA vs. playing a minor I-A, there is added interest in seeing teams from different levels play...seeing if the team from the lower level can hang.

There's no reason Youngstown State should be discriminated against by Ohio State by giving the payouts to schools like Akron or Kent just because Youngstown State is a I-AA.

LSU does that and I think it's wrong. The Tigers played Louisiana Monroe to open 2003 rather than McNeese even though Louisiana Monroe went into the game having lost 4 of its previous 5 games against I-AAs. Then the Indians went on to go 0-2 against I-AAs that season (2003).

Even though McNeese turned out to be overrated (would've been ranked #1 when LSU played them if they'd played) it would've been a more interesting matchup for the Tigers and brought more fans to Baton Rouge. And they were a better team than ULM.

In this case I can't see how it's any worse to play Youngstown State than it is to play, say, Akron...a program that's gone 2-6 against the Penguins since it went I-A in 1987 or Kent State...which beat a 5-7 Youngstown State by only 16-13 in 2003.

Tell you something else..."...been to bowl games..." really doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot now days. Just a shrew's hair short of half the teams in I-A go to bowls. You can be a below-average I-A team and go to one.


How many I-A teams are in the state of Ohio already?

Miami (OH) MAC
Cincinnatti (Big East)
Bowling Green MAC
Toledo MAC
Ohio MAC

With the exception of the Ohio Bobcats, each of these other teams have been to bowl games and have put a scare in to Ohio State in the past. The scheduling of Youngstown State (while a quality I-AA team) is strictly for the ticket sales, low payout, and the W.

I think YSU versus the above mentioned teams is of more interest than a whoopin' by OSU.

[89Hen]

Well done JSO! :bow:

[purduecrum]

Tell you something else..."...been to bowl games..." really doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot now days. Just a shrew's hair short of half the teams in I-A go to bowls. You can be a below-average I-A team and go to one.

If you are in the MAC, going to a bowl game is a big deal. These teams get passed up in favor of 6-6 (6-5) major conference teams all of the time, many of which have a losing conference record. A 10-win MAC team can easily be staying home after the regular season if they cannot get an automatic bid. This is especially true for teams without a big name NFL draft pick.

In recent years I thought it sad that many MAC teams only played 4 home games (all conference games) and would play all 3 non-conference games on the road. Now with 12 games in the future, it will be the I-AA teams finding it difficult to schedule any home non-conference games and the reason is two-fold. First, who would turn down the money to go on the road, and second I-AA teams won't have the money to attract anyone at their level to visit, so what is the next move? Scheduling Division II, III, and NAIA?

At least in college basketball, not playing division I teams is called exhibition. Just as I am upset about Purdue scheduling Indiana State for their 12th game in '06, I'm also upset at Western Illinois for bringing in Quincy and non-scholarship Drake in the recent past.

What will determine a tournament bound team in I-AA? W's? Or W's against I-A? Will L's versus I-A's be forgiven? What about teams that don't schedule I-A's? How will they be viewed at tournament selection time? Maybe only the conference games matter? Could allowing I-A's and I-AA's to mix it up on the field be one way the NCAA is looking to squash momentum of the tournament in college football? Can you hear it now, "look at the I-AA champion, they couldn't even beat an SEC (insert your power conference here) team that had a down year?"

I say let Youngstown State continue to be proud of their in-state I-A rivalries, but OSU just threw some money in the face of this tradition and I can't see what YSU has to gain (other than $$$) but they surely can lose as OSU's next Heisman candidate runs wild all over them.

[JohnStOnge]

If you are in the MAC, going to a bowl game is a big deal. These teams get passed up in favor of 6-6 (6-5) major conference teams all of the time, many of which have a losing conference record. A 10-win MAC team can easily be staying home after the regular season if they cannot get an automatic bid. This is especially true for teams without a big name NFL draft pick.
...
I say let Youngstown State continue to be proud of their in-state I-A rivalries, but OSU just threw some money in the face of this tradition and I can't see what YSU has to gain (other than $$$) but they surely can lose as OSU's next Heisman candidate runs wild all over them.

To me most teams that gets 10 wins playing in the MAC would struggle to get 6 wins and be bowl eligible playing something equivalent to an SEC, Big 10, or Big 12 schedule. Of course that can never happen so we'll never know. I think that most of the time, a 6-5 major conference team is a better team than a 10-1 MAC team.

But it doesn't matter now anyway. I don't see 10 win MAC teams staying home anymore because there are so many bowl berths to fill. Last year Miami of Ohio went to a Bowl game at 8-4.

In fact, I see what happened last year with MAC teams as illustrating my point about being a below average I-A team and getting into a Bowl. By Sagarin's ratings Northern Illinois, Toledo, and Miami of Ohio were rated 69th, 83rd, and 92nd respectively but all went to Bowls (Massey had them rated at 59, 65 and 85). There were only 117 I-A teams so by those two rating systems you had three teams rated below the halfway point (58.5) from ONE conference going to Bowls.

YSU has the same thing to gain...and that IS $$$...as Akron or Kent would. I think it's good that Ohio State is willing to help a I-AA financially and I don't see why I-A pretender programs should have an advantage in terms of access to the money. And even though it's I-AA YSU is a MAC caliber team. In fact, the Penguins have had a few teams that would've been serious contenders for the MAC title. It's not like Ohio State is necessarily taking a significant step down in level of competition by scheduling YSU as opposed to somebody from the MAC.

[JohnStOnge]

Purdue, I think you may underestimate the frequency with which I-AA teams have given major schools competetive games and am REALLY tempted to give you some history on that but I have to save it for an article I'm writing for the I-AA preview mag.

I will say this much since I basically put this in last year's article: I-AA teams that went on to make the playoffs are now 23 - 105 - 2 against programs that were in BCS leagues as of the end of last season. That's I-AA playoff team winning about one in every five of such games. You might not think much of New Hampshire beating Rutgers last year but, hey, Rutgers beat the only MAC team they played last season (Kent State) and is 4-1 against the MAC since the start of BCS play in 1998.

And you may not think much of Maine beating Mississippi State but that was still a big time program that managed to put it together on one Saturday last season enough to beat Florida. Plus Maine was a 5-6 I-AA team.

Another thing...since Youngstown State joined the Gateway in 1997 their conference is 11-14 against the MAC...and remember that the MAC teams are always at home. Last season Northern Illinois went 7-1 in the MAC but their game with Southern Illinois basically came down to the Salukis deciding to go for two instead of playing for overtime. In 2002 Northern Illinois went 7-1 and missed the MAC championship game by a 3 point loss to Toldeo but lost to Western Illinois. You're just not talking about much difference in quality when you talk about MAC play vs. Gateway play. Yes, the MAC is a LITTLE stronger from top to bottom but it's a lot closer in caliber to the Gateway than it is to the Big 10 and from Ohio State's perspective they're both so far below Big 10 caliber that it doesn't make much difference who they're looking at.

To illutrate that point: 1997-2004, while YSU's conference was going 11-14 (0.444) against the MAC, the MAC was going 9 - 64 (0.123) against the Big 10. Ohio State worryiing in general about whether a MAC team or a Gateway team offers more competition is like an elephant worrying about whether it's in more danger from a coyote or a jackal.

[Pen Guin]

Another thing...since Youngstown State joined the Gateway in 1997 their conference is 11-14 against the MAC...and remember that the MAC teams are always at home

You are correct since 2003. You need to realize that YSU easily filled the stadium for a MAC game. During that time, away attendance counted toward yoru IA status, so 18k to 22k was one of their largest games and close for most of the conference, so they wanted to play at the "Ice Castle". Actually YSU has had home-home series with almost all of the MAC programs, and has seen just as many MAC games at home as they have on the road:
Akron
Kent
CMU
EMU
Marshall
Ohio
WMU

It is the 2003 ruling that forbids MAC schools from playing I-AA on the road that is a serious problem with me. It is not much of a rivalry if they don't split the home fields. The last time YSU played a MAC school was Kent in 2003. The attendance was just over 21k, KSU's second largest crowd of the year. The year before, the YSU game was their largest crowd. In both games, the Penguin faithful in attendance was much larger than the flash followers ... at their own field. Even more funny, is that almost as many college students from the Youngstown area attend Kent, as YSU.

[JohnStOnge]

Yeah, I should've said "almost" always at the MAC home stadiums. If I've got it right Youngstown State played six games against MAC teams 1997-2004 and the MAC teams were at home in five of them. I wouldn't be surprised if no other Gateway teams got MAC teams to go play them at Gateway stadiums during the period.

The main point is that the Gateway and MAC are of comparable strength but the Big 10 and MAC are not. People tend to notice the relatively rare instances in which MAC teams get upsets against the Big 10 but if you look at the whole record it's mostly Big 10 blowouts. Last year Sagarin had the Gateway rated at 51.30, the MAC at 55.69, and the Big 10 at 75.63. See what I mean? If you're looking at it from a Big 10 perspective where your conference on average is 20 to 25 points better than either of them there's not a whole lot of difference between them from your perspective. Not in real, on the field terms.

As for the rule on no I-AAs on the road...there was a time when I'd have said what I REALLY think about that but I'm trying to be a kinder, gentler John nowdays.