CAA's Tom Yeager on FCS to FBS

[SU DOG]

He left NO doubt as to his thoughts on the matter.

http://touch.dailypress.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-76797939/

[dbackjon]

Some really good points in there

[HailSzczur]

The stat about FCS schools fielding 7 more teams than lower level FBS teams was interesting, I'd love to find a source for that.

He's pitch is basically the same exact thing I've been telling other Nova fans who think we should be moving up.

[lionsrking2]

Should be required reading I say.

[Saint3333]

I wonder if Yeager would leave the CAA job if CUSA came calling.

[RichH2]

Well, he dont shillyshally. Given BCS and FBS over the last 5 yrs,I have asked the Q often Why move up? What benefit accrues to ODU et al. Now they are a permanent 2nd class school in a Div with the Big 5. And nw Big 5 leaving with their sacks of money leaving behind a rump group of tweeners.

[dbackjon]

The stat about FCS schools fielding 7 more teams than lower level FBS teams was interesting, I'd love to find a source for that.

He's pitch is basically the same exact thing I've been telling other Nova fans who think we should be moving up.

Probably true, but I would bet it includes the Ivies, who sponsor 25-30 sports each.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

I wonder if Yeager would leave the CAA job if CUSA came calling.

Old Tom would be outta there in a New York City Minute! xnodx

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

I wonder if Yeager would leave the CAA job if CUSA came calling.

Perhaps. But definitely not for the Sun Belt job.

[AppMan]

I'm willing to bet he would jump at the chance to run the SB.

Can't blame Tom for trying to save his sinking ship. No disrespect intended to the schools coming in, but can you imagine how tough it will be to ink a new TV deal with their new line up? Especially if JMU bolts. So he says move ups will never be in a Power Five conference. Hey Tom! We already know that! I don't know of one sane individual who has the illusion App will ever be in the SEC or ACC. Our desire is to be associated with schools who play at a higher level than FCS and renew old rivalries that aren't possible as an FCS program. That is all. So just pat us on the back and wish us good luck. Time to cease with the gloom and doom fear mongering.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The stat about FCS schools fielding 7 more teams than lower level FBS teams was interesting, I'd love to find a source for that.

He's pitch is basically the same exact thing I've been telling other Nova fans who think we should be moving up.

I don't have the source but have seen it mentioned in articles (USA Today or something) and have said to some move uppers that they can probably kiss wrestling goodbye in fairly short order cuz it seems to be the first to go everytime.

[Bisonator]

You can't argue with anything in that article. Some people just don't want to hear the truth.

[lionsrking2]

I wonder if Yeager would leave the CAA job if CUSA came calling.

I'm sure he would for a pay raise, but in no way would it diminish his message.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm sure he would for a pay raise, but in no way would it diminish his message.

Exactly, I didn't understand the non sequitur either. Now if he gets a pay raise but his expenses go up in such a manner that if f's up his ability to do what he does then I get it.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This article also points to the divide within the "Other 5". Schools like App St, GSU, FIU, ULL etc. have almost nothing in common with the Temple's, UConn's and UNLV's of the world.

The AAC and MWC need to keep pushing forward to ensure they remain viable nationally. The MAC needs to do the same.

[TheDancinMonarch]

Three points.

Mr. Yeager is 100% correct about the move from FCS to FBS. I attempted to make those same points to the dementedly optimistic ODU fan base. No luck there.

Mr. Yeager was unable to remove his head from the VCU rectum but they left him high and dry anyway. It is to laugh over that.

The article equated the departure of VCU, GMU, ODU and Georgia State. They was no such equality there. Georgia State did not even make a ripple on the CAA lake. Georgia State does not make a ripple on any lake. I have to spell out their name otherwise people might think I am talking about that good football school in Statesboro.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

For what it's worth, if there is a school capable of disproving Yeager, it is ODU. But I don't think they will do it either.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Three points.

Mr. Yeager is 100% correct about the move from FCS to FBS. I attempted to make those same points to the dementedly optimistic ODU fan base. No luck there.

Mr. Yeager was unable to remove his head from the VCU rectum but they left him high and dry anyway. It is to laugh over that.

The article equated the departure of VCU, GMU, ODU and Georgia State. They was no such equality there. Georgia State did not even make a ripple on the CAA lake. Georgia State does not make a ripple on any lake. I have to spell out their name otherwise people might think I am talking about that good football school in Statesboro.

i kind of scoffed at that GA State premise being on equal footing as well.

[lionsrking2]

Exactly, I didn't understand the non sequitur either. Now if he gets a pay raise but his expenses go up in such a manner that if f's up his ability to do what he does then I get it.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

[GannonFan]

Well, he dont shillyshally. Given BCS and FBS over the last 5 yrs,I have asked the Q often Why move up? What benefit accrues to ODU et al. Now they are a permanent 2nd class school in a Div with the Big 5. And nw Big 5 leaving with their sacks of money leaving behind a rump group of tweeners.

See, I don't really get this point. First of all, how many people really care how many sports their school sponsors, assuming they don't actually play those sports? Outside of football and men's basketball (and potentially lacrosse or baseball depending on the school) attendance for most sports is anemic at best, if not non-existent. Is it really a big deal if a school drops tennis or golf from it's interscholastic athletic offerings? Schools that have a popular niche sports (like wrestling at Lehigh or ice hockey at Maine) will always have those sports regardless of where they play other sports.

As for the benefits ODU gets, well, sure they're going to be second class FBS citizens. But how is that any worse than third class FCS citizens? Claiming they'll be obscure at the FBS level ignores the fact that they are invisible at the FCS level. And at least at the next level, ODU now has on the schedule a game with ODU being played in Norfolk, among what will be other quality home games in front of them. You can't get an FBS team to play at an FCS stadium.

[Saint3333]

I'm sure he would for a pay raise, but in no way would it diminish his message.

So he would be making a decision that is best for an individual, yep no similarities there.

[Tribal]

Why is it fans of schools that have or will depart the FCS insist on referring to the FCS as "a sinking ship?" Like ODU, GSU, gsu, and Appy held the FCS together. Did their feasibility study account for losing the cashflow from playing Bama? Maybe it should have.

[IBleedYellow]

See, I don't really get this point. First of all, how many people really care how many sports their school sponsors, assuming they don't actually play those sports? Outside of football and men's basketball (and potentially lacrosse or baseball depending on the school) attendance for most sports is anemic at best, if not non-existent. Is it really a big deal if a school drops tennis or golf from it's interscholastic athletic offerings? Schools that have a popular niche sports (like wrestling at Lehigh or ice hockey at Maine) will always have those sports regardless of where they play other sports.

Really, You don't see the issue of having less opportunities for people to come and play at your university? xconfusedx

[lionsrking2]

So he would be making a decision that is best for an individual, yep no similarities there.

Assuming the hypothetical, the only similarity would be if he left for a higher paying job, only to see the net gains offset by higher costs of living. That's his point.

But the assumption he would leave for a higher paying job is just that ... he's still performing the one he has now, and makes valid points.

[GannonFan]

Really, You don't see the issue of having less opportunities for people to come and play at your university? xconfusedx

No, I don't really. Not for sports that don't generate any attention, either by the student body of the school or by people outside of the school. I don't see the benefit of having 10 guys come to my school of 20,000 to play golf, and all 10 of them parceling up a handful of scholarships. I'm sorry, I just don't see how it improves the school one bit if no one notices the sport. And why do they need to do it under the auspices of the NCAA? Are they any less of a golf player if they play golf as a club sport? Does the NCAA logo make that much of a difference?

[lionsrking2]

No, I don't really. Not for sports that don't generate any attention, either by the student body of the school or by people outside of the school. I don't see the benefit of having 10 guys come to my school of 20,000 to play golf, and all 10 of them parceling up a handful of scholarships. I'm sorry, I just don't see how it improves the school one bit if no one notices the sport. And why do they need to do it under the auspices of the NCAA? Are they any less of a golf player if they play golf as a club sport? Does the NCAA logo make that much of a difference?

Women's basketball has never been all that popular in my neck of the woods, and certainly wasn't popular in the early 80's. But, had we not had a women's program at the time (thanks to Title IX), Robin Roberts never would have attended Southeastern Louisiana University. She graduated with a degree in Broadcast Journalism and has gone on to become one of the most famous personalities on television ... she's never forgotten her roots and takes every opportunity to be an ambassador for our school. The value of the positive publicity we've received in her name, has far and away surpassed the value of her scholarship.

I would also add that on many campuses - especially regional commuter schools - minor sports are great ways to introduce cultural diversity to the student body, and surrounding community.

[Saint3333]

Why is it fans of schools that have or will depart the FCS insist on referring to the FCS as "a sinking ship?" Like ODU, GSU, gsu, and Appy held the FCS together. Did their feasibility study account for losing the cashflow from playing Bama? Maybe it should have.

Not sure anyone said it is a sinking ship on this thread. Why do teams that will remain FCS try to convince those that are leaving that it is a bad idea? We are making the decision because it is what we feel is best for us. Both sides have had there say.

It isn't the FCS is dying, it is the belief that it is no longer the best route for us.

[asumike83]

Did their feasibility study account for losing the cashflow from playing Bama? Maybe it should have.

What do you mean? App's guarantee to play Michigan increased by $300K when they became FBS. That cash flow increases, it doesn't go away.

[EKU-n-GSU]

What do you mean? App's guarantee to play Michigan increased by $300K when they became FBS. That cash flow increases, it doesn't go away.

This. GSU received $300-350K for playing GA last year, while the University of Buffalo received $900K. I don't know if we could have beaten UB last year, but I'd have liked to have had the opportunity. And I'm sure the extra $500-600K would have been greatly appreciated by the FB team as well as the other scholly sports. I think the one argument that goes unspoken is in regards to having a winning tradition and a large, established fan base before you move up vs. hoping to build one when you do. Big difference in revenue opportunities when you're an established winner with lots of fans.

[IBleedYellow]

Women's basketball has never been all that popular in my neck of the woods, and certainly wasn't popular in the early 80's. But, had we not had a women's program at the time (thanks to Title IX), Robin Roberts never would have attended Southeastern Louisiana University. She graduated with a degree in Broadcast Journalism and has gone on to become one of the most famous personalities on television ... she's never forgotten her roots and takes every opportunity to be an ambassador for our school. The value of the positive publicity we've received in her name, has far and away surpassed the value of her scholarship.

I would also add that on many campuses - especially regional commuter schools - minor sports are great ways to introduce cultural diversity to the student body, and surrounding community.

Exactly. You get it. Myself being a college student right now at NDSU I have many friends that don't play football, but are on the golf team, soccer, volleyball, softball and even the wrestling team.

These are people who would NOT be at the school if they weren't able to play these sports here at school. Many of them are ambassadors around this school, which we take great pride in.

That's cool you want to shrink your school to push just football, I don't see that as a great excuse, though. If anything NDSU would have to ADD sports if we went FBS since we would need to add more scholarships for women. Teammaker's could support this themselves, though, so our student fees wouldn't go up.

[PaladinFan]

His first three points are really the backbone of the entire argument: (1) you'll spend more, (2) win less, and (3) never be a peer to the larger institutions.

I don't see how anyone can honestly refute that. Universities have their reasons, but those three things are going to happen as certainly as the sun sets in the west.

[Saint3333]

Who is arguing that isn't the truth?

Will we win less, of course. But look at who the wins and losses are against. Would I rather have a 7-5 or 8-4 season vs. an FBS schedule than a 9-2 or 10-2 season vs. an FCS schedule, at this point in App's program, yes I would.

Staying in the FCS and SoCon would have been the easy path, our AD said that day 1.

[asumike83]

App will not be dropping any sports due to the transition and will remain an associate member of the SoCon for wrestling and soccer. Women's scholarships will be added to comply with Title IX, likely in the form of swimming and diving.

[Bisonator]

xdeadhorsex

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I think the most important statistic is "zero". That is, the number of schools that have made the jump to FBS who have either quit football or moved back down. Even Idaho, who is historically bad at football, is moving football to a conference they fit poorly geographically in to avoid going back to the Big Sky. If moving to the FBS from the FCS is such a huge horrible mistake, then why is every single team that made the jump still there?

[AppMan]

Why is it fans of schools that have or will depart the FCS insist on referring to the FCS as "a sinking ship?" Like ODU, GSU, gsu, and Appy held the FCS together. Did their feasibility study account for losing the cashflow from playing Bama? Maybe it should have.

My reference to a "sinking ship" was in reference to the CAA, not FCS. We may have not held the FCS together but we definitely were some of the supporting beams. It appears some of the SoCon coaches understand the impact App & GSU had on the league.

“They’re both marquee programs,” said coach Mike Ayers. “The thing that will determine how people view our brand, the Southern Conference, will depend on how successful the teams still in this league will be."

“Just because App and Georgia Southern are so different than anybody else in this league, and they travel with 5,000 people to come watch games, so when you play App and Georgia Southern at home what an environment you have,” coach Russ Huesman of the Mocs said. “When you go to their place, it’s an unbelievable environment you’ve got. That’s what we’re going to miss.”

“Common sense tells you Appalachian and Georgia Southern leaving it should give us a better chance to compete as soon as you walk in the door,” Torbush said. “It would be like going into the SEC and not having to play Alabama and LSU every year.”

As far as feasibility studies go, the one we did in 1995 (I was on the committee) and the one completed a few years back both indicated ASU will still lose money moving to FBS football. The kicker is we won't lose AS MUCH in FBS as we do in FCS. TV revenues - which there are virtually none in FCS, game guarantees, additional ticket sales, donations to the Yosef Club - where ASU has already seen a dramatic upswing this year and dollars from corporate sponsorship will all increase to help offset the expenses.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Who is arguing that isn't the truth?

Will we win less, of course. But look at who the wins and losses are against. Would I rather have a 7-5 or 8-4 season vs. an FBS schedule than a 9-2 or 10-2 season vs. an FCS schedule, at this point in App's program, yes I would.

Staying in the FCS and SoCon would have been the easy path, our AD said that day 1.

Why don't these schools try to become really good in either football or basketball, or both? That's what I don't get about the SBC/CUSA. None of the schools really compete at a national level in anything, at least not in the visible sports.

At least the MVFC has basketball. That alone allows UNI, Indiana St, Illinois St. athletic programs/school to remain one step ahead of the GSU's, App State's and FIU's of the world.

[bluehenbillk]

I think the most important statistic is "zero". That is, the number of schools that have made the jump to FBS who have either quit football or moved back down. Even Idaho, who is historically bad at football, is moving football to a conference they fit poorly geographically in to avoid going back to the Big Sky. If moving to the FBS from the FCS is such a huge horrible mistake, then why is every single team that made the jump still there?

Excellent point.

[ccd494]

I think the most important statistic is "zero". That is, the number of schools that have made the jump to FBS who have either quit football or moved back down. Even Idaho, who is historically bad at football, is moving football to a conference they fit poorly geographically in to avoid going back to the Big Sky. If moving to the FBS from the FCS is such a huge horrible mistake, then why is every single team that made the jump still there?

Stubbornness and pride?

[Sitting Bull]

My reference to a "sinking ship" was in reference to the CAA, not FCS. We may have not held the FCS together but we definitely were some of the supporting beams. It appears some of the SoCon coaches understand the impact App & GSU had on the league.

“They’re both marquee programs,” said coach Mike Ayers. “The thing that will determine how people view our brand, the Southern Conference, will depend on how successful the teams still in this league will be."

“Just because App and Georgia Southern are so different than anybody else in this league, and they travel with 5,000 people to come watch games, so when you play App and Georgia Southern at home what an environment you have,” coach Russ Huesman of the Mocs said. “When you go to their place, it’s an unbelievable environment you’ve got. That’s what we’re going to miss.”

“Common sense tells you Appalachian and Georgia Southern leaving it should give us a better chance to compete as soon as you walk in the door,” Torbush said. “It would be like going into the SEC and not having to play Alabama and LSU every year.”

As far as feasibility studies go, the one we did in 1995 (I was on the committee) and the one completed a few years back both indicated ASU will still lose money moving to FBS football. The kicker is we won't lose AS MUCH in FBS as we do in FCS. TV revenues - which there are virtually none in FCS, game guarantees, additional ticket sales, donations to the Yosef Club - where ASU has already seen a dramatic upswing this year and dollars from corporate sponsorship will all increase to help offset the expenses.

CUSA and SB have had as many members bolt as the CAA - so would you also classify your new home as a "sinking ship"?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This. GSU received $300-350K for playing GA last year, while the University of Buffalo received $900K. I don't know if we could have beaten UB last year, but I'd have liked to have had the opportunity. And I'm sure the extra $500-600K would have been greatly appreciated by the FB team as well as the other scholly sports. I think the one argument that goes unspoken is in regards to having a winning tradition and a large, established fan base before you move up vs. hoping to build one when you do. Big difference in revenue opportunities when you're an established winner with lots of fans.

Is it worth it when you increase your athletics budget by $2 million annually to get that extra $500-$600K annually?

[danefan]

Is it worth it when you increase your athletics budget by $2 million annually to get that extra $500-$600K annually?

Just like our argument when professors complain about most schools losing money - there are undoubtedly intangibles to making a move that may not be measurable in financial terms.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the most important statistic is "zero". That is, the number of schools that have made the jump to FBS who have either quit football or moved back down. Even Idaho, who is historically bad at football, is moving football to a conference they fit poorly geographically in to avoid going back to the Big Sky. If moving to the FBS from the FCS is such a huge horrible mistake, then why is every single team that made the jump still there?

You want to be Idaho? Good luck with that.

[Professor Chaos]

Not sure anyone said it is a sinking ship on this thread. Why do teams that will remain FCS try to convince those that are leaving that it is a bad idea? We are making the decision because it is what we feel is best for us. Both sides have had there say.

It isn't the FCS is dying, it is the belief that it is no longer the best route for us.
Because what's best for us that are sticking around is to keep good programs like App St and GSU in the FCS. We may try to convince you that moving up isn't best for you but the ultimate goal of that argument is to benefit us as a subdivision or in Yeager's case to benefit his conference.

In all reality, we have the same goals as you do when we argue against the FBS move. But in the end only App St can decide what's best for App St.

[WUTNDITWAA]

Because what's best for us that are sticking around is to keep good programs like App St and GSU in the FCS. We may try to convince you that moving up isn't best for you but the ultimate goal of that argument is to benefit us as a subdivision or in Yeager's case to benefit his conference.


It took you 57 words to say misery loves company.

Don't use 57 words when three will do.

[henfan]

Just like our argument when professors complain about most schools losing money - there are undoubtedly intangibles to making a move that may not be measurable in financial terms.

Exactly, which is why no school since the early 1980's has reclassified from FBS/I-A to FCS/I-AA, regardless of the marginal economic advantages or disadvantages. The general perception, whether right or wrong, whether we FCS fans like to hear it or not, is that all FBS FB is greater than FCS FB. Of course, we know that's not true competitively or financially, but it IS the public perception. Image matters and some schools are willing to pay for it.

Of course, Yeager's merely parroting concepts pushed by his member schools. In fact, his comments are remarkably similar to those discussed by UD's AD Eric Ziady several months ago. Some seem to have forgotten that Yeager in the last half dozen years lobbied the NCAA to see if a waiver could be granted that would permit CAA FB to reclassify as a whole. Guess FBS FB wasn't too bad of an idea when it was a possibility.

Yeager's seemingly conflicting opinions of FBS vs. FCS remind me of Doug Fullerton's hypocritical rant a few months ago.

[Professor Chaos]

It took you 57 words to say misery loves company.

Don't use 57 words when three will do.
We're definitely not in misery here at NDSU, if you were at App St with the state of your football program over the last 10 years then the Sun Belt euphoria you're feeling now isn't going to last you long.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exactly, which is why no school since the early 1980's has reclassified from FBS/I-A to FCS/I-AA, regardless of the marginal economic advantages or disadvantages. The general perception, whether right or wrong, whether we FCS fans like to hear it or not, is that all FBS FB is greater than FCS FB. Of course, we know that's not true competitively or financially, but it IS the public perception. Image matters and some schools are willing to pay for it.

I disagree. I feel the public, with some justification, thinks of the Sun Belt and MAC and the FCS as just about the same, maybe a tiny bit better. But not anywhere near Ohio State.

[NHwildEcat]

I disagree. I feel the public, with some justification, thinks of the Sun Belt and MAC and the FCS as just about the same, maybe a tiny bit better. But not anywhere near Ohio State.

Yeah, I would say the MAC and Sun Belt are afterthoughts to the masses much in the same regard FCS is overlooked.

Not much difference unless your in a top-5 conference.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I disagree. I feel the public, with some justification, thinks of the Sun Belt and MAC and the FCS as just about the same, maybe a tiny bit better. But not anywhere near Ohio State.

The MAC has forged a solid identity due to their success in football and basketball. Their unique TV deal certainly hasn't hurt either.

[EKU-n-GSU]

Is it worth it when you increase your athletics budget by $2 million annually to get that extra $500-$600K annually?

I don't sit on the Athletics Dept. finance committee so I can't make that assessment. As has been discussed ad infinitum it's not just about the FB program/athletics getting more money out of the deal, but creating and sustaining greater exposure for the university, which will in the long run attract more and better students, more and better research opportunities, etc. And, FWIW, our 'take' on money games in the first year is anticipated @ $1.9M right out of the gate. Yes, more expenses, but more rewards as well.

Not a single university at the top of the NCAA food chain started there...they all grew to that point.

[NHwildEcat]

The MAC has forged a solid identity due to their success in football and basketball. Their unique TV deal certainly hasn't hurt either.

All correct. I still think that not many people are looking at the schedule for the coming weekend and saying "gee I gotta see me some MAC football" and it will never be that way when you can watch Alabama/LSU or some other mix of teams in the SEC and other major conferences.

[asumike83]

Why don't these schools try to become really good in either football or basketball, or both? That's what I don't get about the SBC/CUSA. None of the schools really compete at a national level in anything, at least not in the visible sports.

Become national contenders in football, basketball or both... it is so simple, why didn't anyone think of that?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Become national contenders in football, basketball or both... it is so simple, why didn't anyone think of that?

Plenty have....Butler, VCU, Gonzaga, Wichita State, Davidson, Xavier, Villanova, Richmond, Creighton etc...to name a few...

I don't think it's a coincidence that St. Mary's dropped football and their hoops program took off...

[SpiritCymbal]

It isn't the FCS is dying, it is the belief that it is no longer the best route for us.

Needs to be quoted again.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think it's a coincidence that St. Mary's dropped football and their hoops program took off...

Yes, all that money went towards illegally recruiting 21 year olds from Australia to compete for their hoops team. They will be getting theirs from the NCAA very soon if they haven't already.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Yes, all that money went towards illegally recruiting 21 year olds from Australia to compete for their hoops team. They will be getting theirs from the NCAA very soon if they haven't already.

That's how you know they've arrived as a program! They've been sanctioned!

Seriously though, Bennett is suspended for the first five games this year and the Gaels will face a schollie reduction for two years. They'll be fine...

[Sitting Bull]

I don't think it's a coincidence that St. Mary's dropped football and their hoops program took off...

Or that ODU joins a football centric conference and their basketball program implodes.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Or that ODU joins a football centric conference and their basketball program implodes.

What happened to ODU women's hoops? They, along with LaTech, were a national power in the 1990's/early 2000's. I remember they had an excellent player at some point...

[Tribal]

Not sure anyone said it is a sinking ship on this thread. Why do teams that will remain FCS try to convince those that are leaving that it is a bad idea? We are making the decision because it is what we feel is best for us. Both sides have had there say.

It isn't the FCS is dying, it is the belief that it is no longer the best route for us.

Post 10. The CAA is far from being a sinking ship and the FCS is lightyears from being a sinking ship. There are too many football playing schools who cannot or don't want to go to a FBS conference...they gotta play somewhere.

[Tribal]

What do you mean? App's guarantee to play Michigan increased by $300K when they became FBS. That cash flow increases, it doesn't go away.

Because, Mike, if the current rumors pan out, those big time programs will split from the NCAA and no longer play lower-tier programs.

[URMite]

What happened to ODU women's hoops? They, along with LaTech, were a national power in the 1990's/early 2000's. I remember they had an excellent player at some point...

You mean this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Dominion_Lady_Monarchs_basketball

Yes, it is Wikipedia, but look at championships & appearances on the right. Three National Championships... From 1979-2008, missed the Tournament in 1986 & 1991...

It seemed to have slowed down in 2009.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You mean this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Dominion_Lady_Monarchs_basketball

Yes, it is Wikipedia, but look at championships & appearances on the right. Three National Championships... From 1979-2008, missed the Tournament in 1986 & 1991...

It seemed to have slowed down in 2009.

That shows just how good they were.....

Ticha Penicheiro is the player I was thinking of btw.....

[TheDancinMonarch]

You mean this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Dominion_Lady_Monarchs_basketball

Yes, it is Wikipedia, but look at championships & appearances on the right. Three National Championships... From 1979-2008, missed the Tournament in 1986 & 1991...

It seemed to have slowed down in 2009.

Slowed down?! It damned near stopped. Head Coach Wendy Larry retired. Unfortunately she was still the coach while in retirement mode. In this day and age it doesn't take much to go from the top to the bottom. Look at the ODU men's program. A couple of scotch and sodas and we went to the bottom of the CAA and will occupy the same position in C-USA.

[henfan]

I disagree. I feel the public, with some justification, thinks of the Sun Belt and MAC and the FCS as just about the same, maybe a tiny bit better. But not anywhere near Ohio State.

Of course, there's no way to qualify your opinion or mine. It's my opinion that, of the segment of those fans familiar with D-I FB, more view all FCS as a step down from all FBS FB. Both you and I know that not the be the reality but, IMO, that appears to be a wider held perception by a sizable segment of fans, recruits, coaches & media types. It doesn't help that ESPN tends to foster that notion because they have a vested interest in doing so.

[asumike83]

Because, Mike, if the current rumors pan out, those big time programs will split from the NCAA and no longer play lower-tier programs.

Anything is possible but I highly doubt that is what will happen. I just do not see a scenario where schools like Vanderbilt, Duke, BC, Maryland, Iowa State, Texas Tech, etc. sign up for a lifetime of losing seasons.

Have you read this SI article?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130725/college-sports-braces-for-more-change/?sct=cf_t11_a0

It paints a much different picture and one that seems more likely, IMO.

[URMite]

That shows just how good they were.....

Ticha Penicheiro is the player I was thinking of btw.....

I'm old enough to remember Nancy Lieberman on the '79 & '80 championship teams. Her son just transferred to Richmond. But that is a topic for another board...

[citdog]

Anything is possible but I highly doubt that is what will happen. I just do not see a scenario where schools like Vanderbilt, Duke, BC, Maryland, Iowa State, Texas Tech, etc. sign up for a lifetime of losing seasons.

Have you read this SI article?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130725/college-sports-braces-for-more-change/?sct=cf_t11_a0

It paints a much different picture and one that seems more likely, IMO.


vandy, duke, bc (sans Matty Ryan), maryland have ALREADY signed up for a lifetime of losing seasons.

y'all tell each other and yourselves whatever you must to make yourselves feel better but when the bcs secession happens, and it will, you will have spent a ton of money for something you could have gotten for free and alienated those which you once came hat in hand to be confederated with.

[MplsBison]

Two easy counter-points to Yeager (which may have already been addressed in the thread, sorry if so):

- and of those 19 that have moved up....how many got there, looked around, said "this isn't what we thought it was going to be" and have moved back down to I-AA/FCS? None.

How can that be possible, if it's such a lose-lose proposition???


- the vast majority of the public doesn't know any better than the broad NCAA classifications. "FBS is higher than FCS, according to the NCAA...so that must be the real Division I while FCS is actually Division II" is the typical response you'll get.

Just because a few people on some internet message board know better doesn't mean that's what the public thinks.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm old enough to remember Nancy Lieberman on the '79 & '80 championship teams. Her son just transferred to Richmond. But that is a topic for another board...

I think this is all relates back to offering more than just football. Richmond has done a solid job of building their athletic brand through basketball. As long as the A10 remains a Top 10 hoops league, and it certainly should, the Spiders are fine right they are. The renovations to the Robbins Center will only help the cause.

I knew of ODU/LaTech athletics because of women's hoops....

[MplsBison]

In truth, there are FOUR tiers of Division I college football, most easily separated by conference:

Tier I - what most people think of as the true 'Division I' of college football - PAC, B1G, BigXII, SEC, ACC
Tier II - people know they are FBS, that's about it - MWC, MAC, SB, CUSA, AAC

Tier III - people know they are FCS, these schools are gunning for the national title every year - Big Sky, MVC, Southland, SoCon, CAA
Tier IV - people know they are FCS, these schools - for the most part - care only about winning their respective conference titles, not winning the national title - Pioneer, OVC, MEAC, SWAC, Patriot, Ivy, NEC, Big South

[WMTribe90]

I think the most important statistic is "zero". That is, the number of schools that have made the jump to FBS who have either quit football or moved back down. Even Idaho, who is historically bad at football, is moving football to a conference they fit poorly geographically in to avoid going back to the Big Sky. If moving to the FBS from the FCS is such a huge horrible mistake, then why is every single team that made the jump still there?

Pride is greatest before the fall. Nobody wants to admit a mistake, even if its costing the school millions a year over what they were spending as an FCS program. Your stat speaks to human nature and is no proof of the wisdom of their decision to make the jump.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Pride is greatest before the fall. Nobody wants to admit a mistake, even if its costing the school millions a year over what they were spending as an FCS program. Your stat speaks to human nature and is no proof of the wisdom of their decision to make the jump.

Don't forget the AD voluntarily voting for his own pay to be cut.

[WMTribe90]

This. GSU received $300-350K for playing GA last year, while the University of Buffalo received $900K. I don't know if we could have beaten UB last year, but I'd have liked to have had the opportunity. And I'm sure the extra $500-600K would have been greatly appreciated by the FB team as well as the other scholly sports. I think the one argument that goes unspoken is in regards to having a winning tradition and a large, established fan base before you move up vs. hoping to build one when you do. Big difference in revenue opportunities when you're an established winner with lots of fans.

Wouldn't is also reason that you are also paying more to get FBS teams to visit you in Statesboro? Also, you're getting paid more as a visitor, but your average road trip is longer and your travel contingent larger as an FBS program. Seems to me, factoring in those two considerations the financial windfall is little to nothing. Anybody have hard numbers?

[WMTribe90]

I don't sit on the Athletics Dept. finance committee so I can't make that assessment. As has been discussed ad infinitum it's not just about the FB program/athletics getting more money out of the deal, but creating and sustaining greater exposure for the university, which will in the long run attract more and better students, more and better research opportunities, etc. And, FWIW, our 'take' on money games in the first year is anticipated @ $1.9M right out of the gate. Yes, more expenses, but more rewards as well.

Not a single university at the top of the NCAA food chain started there...they all grew to that point.

Yes, they all grew to that point, but in a different era. IF BSU, for all their fan support and on the field success cannot crack the BCS glass ceiling then its pretty much not going to happen for anyone currently residing in non-BCS FBS land. The game has been rigged and the BCS schools are putting the final nails in the door the slammed shut behind them.

[WMTribe90]

My reference to a "sinking ship" was in reference to the CAA, not FCS. We may have not held the FCS together but we definitely were some of the supporting beams. It appears some of the SoCon coaches understand the impact App & GSU had on the league.

“They’re both marquee programs,” said coach Mike Ayers. “The thing that will determine how people view our brand, the Southern Conference, will depend on how successful the teams still in this league will be."

“Just because App and Georgia Southern are so different than anybody else in this league, and they travel with 5,000 people to come watch games, so when you play App and Georgia Southern at home what an environment you have,” coach Russ Huesman of the Mocs said. “When you go to their place, it’s an unbelievable environment you’ve got. That’s what we’re going to miss.”

“Common sense tells you Appalachian and Georgia Southern leaving it should give us a better chance to compete as soon as you walk in the door,” Torbush said. “It would be like going into the SEC and not having to play Alabama and LSU every year.”

As far as feasibility studies go, the one we did in 1995 (I was on the committee) and the one completed a few years back both indicated ASU will still lose money moving to FBS football. The kicker is we won't lose AS MUCH in FBS as we do in FCS. TV revenues - which there are virtually none in FCS, game guarantees, additional ticket sales, donations to the Yosef Club - where ASU has already seen a dramatic upswing this year and dollars from corporate sponsorship will all increase to help offset the expenses.

CAA football (separate entity) is not a sinking ship. The only loss of significance was ODU and they were a conference member for two years.

Lets look at other recent departures:

NU - Addition by subtraction, Albany, as recent playoff participant, exceeds what NU brought to the league in their first year on board.
GaSt - Addition by subtraction, replaced by a superior FCS program in Elon.
UMass - Solid conference program, but not exceptional outside of their 1998 NC run. A quickly improving SBU program easily replace them in the North Division.

Solid core (UD, UR, VU, UNH and WM) are committed to FCS/CAA. JMU is the only flight risk, assuming they have an offer and their admin rolls the dice (neither a certainty).

After a slightly down year, you will see 4 or more CAA teams in the playoff field this year and with the exception of ODU, the league is as strong as its ever been top to bottom.

[WMTribe90]

Exactly, which is why no school since the early 1980's has reclassified from FBS/I-A to FCS/I-AA, regardless of the marginal economic advantages or disadvantages. The general perception, whether right or wrong, whether we FCS fans like to hear it or not, is that all FBS FB is greater than FCS FB. Of course, we know that's not true competitively or financially, but it IS the public perception. Image matters and some schools are willing to pay for it.

Of course, Yeager's merely parroting concepts pushed by his member schools. In fact, his comments are remarkably similar to those discussed by UD's AD Eric Ziady several months ago. Some seem to have forgotten that Yeager in the last half dozen years lobbied the NCAA to see if a waiver could be granted that would permit CAA FB to reclassify as a whole. Guess FBS FB wasn't too bad of an idea when it was a possibility.

Yeager's seemingly conflicting opinions of FBS vs. FCS remind me of Doug Fullerton's hypocritical rant a few months ago.

First I heard of Yeager petitioning to move CAA to FBS. Do you have a link?

[WMTribe90]

Two easy counter-points to Yeager (which may have already been addressed in the thread, sorry if so):

- and of those 19 that have moved up....how many got there, looked around, said "this isn't what we thought it was going to be" and have moved back down to I-AA/FCS? None.

How can that be possible, if it's such a lose-lose proposition???


- the vast majority of the public doesn't know any better than the broad NCAA classifications. "FBS is higher than FCS, according to the NCAA...so that must be the real Division I while FCS is actually Division II" is the typical response you'll get.

Just because a few people on some internet message board know better doesn't mean that's what the public thinks.

Its easy to blow through millions of someone else's money (student fees, state funds, boosters, etc) to maintain appearances. Just because pride and lack of personal consequences keep them from admitting FBS is not all its cracked up to be, doesn't mean everyone is flourishing (the number of teams losing more at as FBS programs than they did as FCS programs speaks for itself). Why do people run up massive credit card debt instead of downsizing their life and living within their means. Same reason. Human nature.

[asumike83]

vandy, duke, bc (sans Matty Ryan), maryland have ALREADY signed up for a lifetime of losing seasons.

y'all tell each other and yourselves whatever you must to make yourselves feel better but when the bcs secession happens, and it will, you will have spent a ton of money for something you could have gotten for free and alienated those which you once came hat in hand to be confederated with.

Duke went to a bowl game last year with a losing record in conference because they were able to get wins against non-BCS teams. Vandy did the same thing in 2011. Schools like them know they cannot compete with Alabama, LSU, FSU or Clemson on a regular basis and those bowl appearances are big for them.

I will be just fine no matter what happens, conference realignment will not ruin App football for me. I do think Pete Thamel's article lays out a much more likely scenario than the BCS conferences leaving the NCAA and the legal nightmare that would ensue related to the 12-year playoff contract that was signed. There will be major changes. The already huge divide between the BCS conferences and everyone else will grow even wider but a complete removal from the NCAA seems unlikely.

[URMite]

Duke went to a bowl game last year with a losing record in conference because they didn't play the Richmond Spiders. Vandy did the same thing in 2011. Schools like them know they cannot compete with Alabama, LSU, FSU or Clemson on a regular basis and those bowl appearances are big for them.

I will be just fine no matter what happens, conference realignment will not ruin App football for me. I do think Pete Thamel's article lays out a much more likely scenario than the BCS conferences leaving the NCAA and the legal nightmare that would ensue related to the 12-year playoff contract that was signed. There will be major changes. The already huge divide between the BCS conferences and everyone else will grow even wider but a complete removal from the NCAA seems unlikely.

FIFY xlolx

[Tod]

Wouldn't is also reason that you are also paying more to get FBS teams to visit you in Statesboro? Also, you're getting paid more as a visitor, but your average road trip is longer and your travel contingent larger as an FBS program. Seems to me, factoring in those two considerations the financial windfall is little to nothing. Anybody have hard numbers?

UGA will never, ever, ever play in Statesboro. Most of GSUs home OOC games will be home/home, no money will change hands. They can also get an FCS home game on the cheap.

I have no idea on travel costs or the size of the road contingency, but I don't think their contingency has to be any larger than it currently is, does it?

[WMTribe90]

UGA will never, ever, ever play in Statesboro. Most of GSUs home OOC games will be home/home, no money will change hands. They can also get an FCS home game on the cheap.

I have no idea on travel costs or the size of the road contingency, but I don't think their contingency has to be any larger than it currently is, does it?

Each conference sets limits on how many players can travel. CAA was 56. I imagine most FBS conferences set the number higher and there will also be more coaches and support staff traveling with an FBS program.

[EKU-n-GSU]

Wouldn't is also reason that you are also paying more to get FBS teams to visit you in Statesboro? Also, you're getting paid more as a visitor, but your average road trip is longer and your travel contingent larger as an FBS program. Seems to me, factoring in those two considerations the financial windfall is little to nothing. Anybody have hard numbers?

If you're referring to paid OOC games I can see where the windfall could be diminished. I will readily admit to not knowing how the in-conference payouts go, but I assume there is some gate/concession proceed sharing, some conference money, TV money if the game is televised, etc. We travel for four games, everyone else travels for four games. Where are the financial losses (for FB)? I can see where sending the Title IX teams around a conference would be more expensive than before, but to this point we've not talked about anything but FB.

[Tod]

Each conference sets limits on how many players can travel. CAA was 56. I imagine most FBS conferences set the number higher and there will also be more coaches and support staff traveling with an FBS program.

Thanks. But that 56 is the maximum, right? If they wanted to travel with 50 they could, I believe.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

CAA football (separate entity) is not a sinking ship. The only loss of significance was ODU and they were a conference member for two years.

Lets look at other recent departures:

NU - Addition by subtraction, Albany, as recent playoff participant, exceeds what NU brought to the league in their first year on board.
GaSt - Addition by subtraction, replaced by a superior FCS program in Elon.
UMass - Solid conference program, but not exceptional outside of their 1998 NC run. A quickly improving SBU program easily replace them in the North Division.

Solid core (UD, UR, VU, UNH and WM) are committed to FCS/CAA. JMU is the only flight risk, assuming they have an offer and their admin rolls the dice (neither a certainty).

After a slightly down year, you will see 4 or more CAA teams in the playoff field this year and with the exception of ODU, the league is as strong as its ever been top to bottom.

Hear Hear!

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

FIFY xlolx

xnodx

[WMTribe90]

Thanks. But that 56 is the maximum, right? If they wanted to travel with 50 they could, I believe.

Correct, but we never did and I doubt many teams would travel with less than the allowable limit.

[WMTribe90]

If you're referring to paid OOC games I can see where the windfall could be diminished. I will readily admit to not knowing how the in-conference payouts go, but I assume there is some gate/concession proceed sharing, some conference money, TV money if the game is televised, etc. We travel for four games, everyone else travels for four games. Where are the financial losses (for FB)? I can see where sending the Title IX teams around a conference would be more expensive than before, but to this point we've not talked about anything but FB.

I suspect conference home and away games are a wash except for the added expense of flights to Texas, NM, and Idaho. I was thinking more that you will pay more for OOC home games against non-league FBS opponents compared to bringing in FCS squads. So, you;ll get more as an FBS playing at Michigan, but you'll also likely pay more to bring in a Buffalo. Any left over pay-day money will likely go to flying the non-revenue squads to more contests. Like I said, I don't the added pay days as a huge windfall. Added expenses will more than eat that up IMO.

[Tod]

Correct, but we never did and I doubt many teams would travel with less than the allowable limit.

I doubt it, too, but I'm thinking simply of the cost-saving possibilities. But, if no one is actually inclined to consider it, I guess it doesn't really matter.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Hear Hear!

But half your teams are bolting for the greener pastures of the Patriot League! Or so I hear.....xlolx

[MplsBison]

Its easy to blow through millions of someone else's money (student fees, state funds, boosters, etc) to maintain appearances. Just because pride and lack of personal consequences keep them from admitting FBS is not all its cracked up to be, doesn't mean everyone is flourishing (the number of teams losing more at as FBS programs than they did as FCS programs speaks for itself). Why do people run up massive credit card debt instead of downsizing their life and living within their means. Same reason. Human nature.

If the students vote to increase student fees upon themselves to fund a move to FBS football, then it is so. Nothing more can be said about that. It was decided in a democratic process.

Point being, if it wasn't possible to sustain a "low FBS" financial model -- those 19 move ups would have all been forced to move back down to I-AA/FCS. Since that's never happened, we can safely conclude that the financial model for "low FBS" is sustainable.


That kills one argument Yeager was trying to make.

[AppMan]

Because, Mike, if the current rumors pan out, those big time programs will split from the NCAA and no longer play lower-tier programs.

Lower tier programs as in FCS schools not FBS. The P5 schools have been quite clear about that.

[URMite]

Lower tier programs as in FCS schools not FBS. The P5 schools have been quite clear about that.

Lower tier programs as in... NCAA. :D xlolx

[MplsBison]

Because, Mike, if the current rumors pan out, those big time programs will split from the NCAA and no longer play lower-tier programs.

On one hand, the big schools will never completely split from the NCAA because it provides too much benefit for them in terms of organizing and administering the post season for non-football sports (particularly men's basketball) as well as acting as a "governing body" that controls and enforces rules of conduct outside the contests themselves.

On the other hand, those schools are already separate from the NCAA in football and have been for quite a few years! Think about this: how much money does the NCAA get from the FBS conferences and from bowl games? I think it's zero (not 100% sure but feels right). FBS football is entirely controlled by the conferences and the business organizations that own the bowl games. They keep all the money for themselves and share some with the rest of the FBS conferences as seen fit to prevent lawsuits or congressional anti-trust hearings.


The idea that the biggest five FBS conferences are going to entirely split themselves away from the NCAA isn't credible, it isn't believable -- it's laughable. They may demand a reorganization within NCAA so as to bypass a vote from the rest of the DI membership on providing "super scholarships" to division I football players (a full scholarship plus a few thousand bucks, for example), but that's all we're talking about here. Nothing more.

[WMTribe90]

If the students vote to increase student fees upon themselves to fund a move to FBS football, then it is so. Nothing more can be said about that. It was decided in a democratic process.

Point being, if it wasn't possible to sustain a "low FBS" financial model -- those 19 move ups would have all been forced to move back down to I-AA/FCS. Since that's never happened, we can safely conclude that the financial model for "low FBS" is sustainable.


That kills one argument Yeager was trying to make.

Not all student bodies get to vote on increases to athletic fees.

Spending more money than you take in is the opposite of sustainable.

[Sitting Bull]

But half your teams are bolting for the greener pastures of the Patriot League! Or so I hear.....xlolx

Are you referring to CUSA or the Sun Belt?

[WMTribe90]

On one hand, the big schools will never completely split from the NCAA because it provides too much benefit for them in terms of organizing and administering the post season for non-football sports (particularly men's basketball) as well as acting as a "governing body" that controls and enforces rules of conduct outside the contests themselves.

On the other hand, those schools are already separate from the NCAA in football and have been for quite a few years! Think about this: how much money does the NCAA get from the FBS conferences and from bowl games? I think it's zero (not 100% sure but feels right). FBS football is entirely controlled by the conferences and the business organizations that own the bowl games. They keep all the money for themselves and share some with the rest of the FBS conferences as seen fit to prevent lawsuits or congressional anti-trust hearings.


The idea that the biggest five FBS conferences are going to entirely split themselves away from the NCAA isn't credible, it isn't believable -- it's laughable. They may demand a reorganization within NCAA so as to bypass a vote from the rest of the DI membership on providing "super scholarships" to division I football players (a full scholarship plus a few thousand bucks, for example), but that's all we're talking about here. Nothing more.

I agree with this. All this succession talk is sabre rattling intended to gain changes to NCAA rules that will further enrich the Big 5 programs and secure their monopoly.

[citdog]

I agree with this. All this succession talk is sabre rattling intended to gain changes to NCAA rules that will further enrich the Big 5 programs and secure their monopoly.


succession? and you went to a school in OLD VIRGINIA? shame on you.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYDmJbFS7HY

[AppMan]

CUSA and SB have had as many members bolt as the CAA - so would you also classify your new home as a "sinking ship"?

I understand what you are getting at, but the situations are entirely different. The CAA is in a very precarious situation and has been for some time. Losing Ga State, George Mason, U Mass, ODU and VCU was a upper cut that left the conference reeling. It's not if but when JMU moves to FBS. Yeager knows that move could potentially ignite the final sequence which destroys the CAA. With JMU gone W&M has no in state conference rivals. The Tribe will likely sacrifice a few football scholarships for a home with more academically aligned schools in the Patriot League. Richmond and Villanova will likely join the AE for football. Yeager now has a conference with 2 full fledged members in NC, 1 in SC, none in Virginia, 1 in Maryland, 1 in Delaware, 1 in Pennsylvania, 1 in New York and 1 in Boston. He has football only members in Maine, New Hampshire, New York and Rhode Island. The door is now open to the real possibility Delaware, Rhode Island and Towson join with Albany, Maine, UNH, and Stony Brook in the America East. Charleston and Elon tuck their tails and heads back to the SoCon and brings UNCW along. The CAA is finished. There is no such scenario for the SunBelt.

[WMTribe90]

I understand what you are getting at, but the situations are entirely different. The CAA is in a very precarious situation and has been for some time. Losing Ga State, George Mason, U Mass, ODU and VCU was a upper cut that left the conference reeling. It's not if but when JMU moves to FBS. Yeager knows that move could potentially ignite the final sequence which destroys the CAA. With JMU gone W&M has no in state conference rivals. The Tribe will likely sacrifice a few football scholarships for a home with more academically aligned schools in the Patriot League. Richmond and Villanova will likely join the AE for football. Yeager now has a conference with 2 full fledged members in NC, 1 in SC, none in Virginia, 1 in Maryland, 1 in Delaware, 1 in Pennsylvania, 1 in New York and 1 in Boston. He has football only members in Maine, New Hampshire, New York and Rhode Island. The door is now open to the real possibility Delaware, Rhode Island and Towson join with Albany, Maine, UNH, and Stony Brook in the America East. Charleston and Elon tuck their tails and heads back to the SoCon and brings UNCW along. The CAA is finished. There is no such scenario for the SunBelt.

Who wins this year's super bowl?

[WMTribe90]

succession? and you went to a school in OLD VIRGINIA? shame on you.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYDmJbFS7HY

I'm a Pennsylvania farm boy at heart. Did pick up a southern wife though.

[citdog]

I'm a Pennsylvania farm boy at heart. Did pick up a southern wife though.


damn yankee

[AppMan]

Who wins this year's super bowl?

The team that scores the most points.

[AppMan]

damn yankee

17950

[Sitting Bull]

I understand what you are getting at, but the situations are entirely different. The CAA is in a very precarious situation and has been for some time. Losing Ga State, George Mason, U Mass, ODU and VCU was a upper cut that left the conference reeling. It's not if but when JMU moves to FBS. Yeager knows that move could potentially ignite the final sequence which destroys the CAA. With JMU gone W&M has no in state conference rivals. The Tribe will likely sacrifice a few football scholarships for a home with more academically aligned schools in the Patriot League. Richmond and Villanova will likely join the AE for football. Yeager now has a conference with 2 full fledged members in NC, 1 in SC, none in Virginia, 1 in Maryland, 1 in Delaware, 1 in Pennsylvania, 1 in New York and 1 in Boston. He has football only members in Maine, New Hampshire, New York and Rhode Island. The door is now open to the real possibility Delaware, Rhode Island and Towson join with Albany, Maine, UNH, and Stony Brook in the America East. Charleston and Elon tuck their tails and heads back to the SoCon and brings UNCW along. The CAA is finished. There is no such scenario for the SunBelt.

Your scenarios border on absurd.

Earth to App Man. The CAA is alive and kicking with stronger cohesion than the Sun Belt and has additional schools who would come aboard if asked. JMU is already presumed out.

The Sun Belt is like the Atlantic Sun, you are at the bottom of the FBS food chain. You better just hope CUSA doesn't just pluck you clean to keep themselves somewhat viable.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Your scenarios border on absurd.

Earth to App Man. The CAA is alive and kicking with stronger cohesion than the Sun Belt and has additional schools who would come aboard if asked. JMU is already presumed out.

The Sun Belt is like the Atlantic Sun, you are at the bottom of the FBS food chain. You better just hope CUSA doesn't just pluck you clean to keep themselves somewhat viable.

So you think Richmond may not be heading to the America East??!!

What a relief.

[Sitting Bull]

Yes, and thank goodness the CAA was able to withstand that "upper cut" of losing Georgia State!

[AppMan]

Your scenarios border on absurd.

Earth to App Man. The CAA is alive and kicking with stronger cohesion than the Sun Belt and has additional schools who would come aboard if asked. JMU is already presumed out.

The Sun Belt is like the Atlantic Sun, you are at the bottom of the FBS food chain. You better just hope CUSA doesn't just pluck you clean to keep themselves somewhat viable.

"The CAA is alive and kicking with stronger cohesion than the Sun Belt". Yea right. In case you missed it, CUSA isn't expanding any more. With the revenue distribution plan it makes no sense for any G5 conference to have more than 12 members. CUSA screwed up and jumped the gun. Already with 14 I seriously doubt the current members will vote themselves a pay cut by adding 2 more schools. The A-Sun eh? I seem to recall they had a basketball squad do pretty well in the tournament this past year. Not bad for a bottom feeder conference. I'll take standing at the back of the line at the FBS steak house than the front of the line at the FCS soup kitchen. We'll just have to wait and see who is absurd.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

"The CAA is alive and kicking with stronger cohesion than the Sun Belt". Yea right. In case you missed it, CUSA isn't expanding any more. With the revenue distribution plan it makes no sense for any G5 conference to have more than 12 members. CUSA screwed up and jumped the gun. Already with 14 I seriously doubt the current members will vote themselves a pay cut by adding 2 more schools. The A-Sun eh? I seem to recall they had a basketball squad do pretty well in the tournament this past year. Not bad for a bottom feeder conference. I'll take standing at the back of the line at the FBS steak house than the front of the line at the FCS soup kitchen. We'll just have to wait and see who is absurd.

It's the fact that you think you are at a steak house that gives me a chuckle I guess. You ain't in line for steak partner. xlolx

You will be able to pay a premium for soup though.xthumbsupx

[lionsrking2]

It's the fact that you think you are at a steak house that gives me a chuckle I guess. You ain't in line for steak partner. xlolx

You will be able to pay a premium for soup though.xthumbsupx

+1000xthumbsupx

[Lehigh'98]

It's the fact that you think you are at a steak house that gives me a chuckle I guess. You ain't in line for steak partner. xlolx

You will be able to pay a premium for soup though.xthumbsupx

Ehhh, maybe a happy meal with a toy.

[TheDancinMonarch]

I'll take standing at the back of the line at the FBS steak house than the front of the line at the FCS soup kitchen. We'll just have to wait and see who is absurd.

What fractured thought process makes you think that the Big 5 conferences are going to share their money with the Small 5 conferences? You'll be lucky if you get a tofu burger and if you do, it will cost $50.

[AppMan]

What fractured thought process makes you think that the Big 5 conferences are going to share their money with the Small 5 conferences? You'll be lucky if you get a tofu burger and if you do, it will cost $50.

My question is what fractured thought process did you use to decipher that? Nothing in what I said anything even remotely hints at your assumption. However, unlike the FCS playoffs which cost schools money there is some serious dollars to be made in the FBS playoff distribution model to the G5 schools.

[Waco Kid]

Why don't these schools try to become really good in either football or basketball, or both? That's what I don't get about the SBC/CUSA. None of the schools really compete at a national level in anything, at least not in the visible sports.

At least the MVFC has basketball. That alone allows UNI, Indiana St, Illinois St. athletic programs/school to remain one step ahead of the GSU's, App State's and FIU's of the world.

What visible sports do teams in the SoCon or in your case Patriot compete at a national level in? The Sun Belt had 4 teams in bowls, 2 in the NCAA Basketball Tourney, and 3 in the NCAA Baseball Tourney. I'd say they are competing just fine.

[MplsBison]

Not all student bodies get to vote on increases to athletic fees.

Spending more money than you take in is the opposite of sustainable.

True, that's a good point.

Therefore, it must be that most of those programs will be forced to drop down to FCS as that is a much more sustainable financial model.

Correct?

[MplsBison]

I agree with this. All this succession talk is sabre rattling intended to gain changes to NCAA rules that will further enrich the Big 5 programs and secure their monopoly.

Well, a bit on the contrary: all it is that the big five conferences want to do is to be able to provide "super scholarships" to student athletes. That means giving each athlete an extra $2000-$4000 on top of everything that goes into a full scholarship.

But as the rules stand now, this has to be voted upon by the entire Division I membership and there are vastly more schools that A) are worried if it starts at $2000, where does it end?, B) are worried if the extra money is optional, how will schools that can only afford to give "regular" full-scholarships compete against schools giving the "super scholarships" and C) are ideologically against the idea of "paying players".

Therefore it basically has no chance of passing.


So the big five are demanding changes to the NCAA that would allow the big five to bypass the rest of the Division I membership and vote themselves the ability to provide super scholarships. Each and every commissioner of the big five has more or less come out and said as much during each conference's football media days and the media has picked up the storyline and are trumpeting it as loudly as they can as something of interest to sell people outside of the standard football talk. (sort've akin to how they jump on conference realignment)


However, in my mind this concept only works in football since there are already sub-division tiers. If they want to start giving out super scholarships in the rest of the sports then it needs to get approved by the entire Division I membership. Otherwise, then I think they do in fact have to completely separate the big five into a separate Division of the NCAA. And I don't think that's what they or the NCAA wants, since the "David vs Goliath" storyline is the only compelling story to sell people who don't normally watch sports.

[Waco Kid]

The MAC has forged a solid identity due to their success in football and basketball. Their unique TV deal certainly hasn't hurt either.

I think a lot of the perception you're speaking of has to do with the region you live in. Many of my friends who went to SEC or ACC schools have said things such as "glad you're finally joining the big boys" or "it's about time you moved out of D2 ball" or "welcome to real football." Sometimes I have even tried to down play the Sun Belt expecting a negative reaction, but these folks all say yea it's not the SEC but its still a huge jump from FCS. Most of the football fans here feel like the MAC is very overrated because the Power schools they play are from the Big Ten and what was the Big East. Sun Belt schools mainly play teams from the SEC, Big 12, and ACC which if we're honest are all better than the Big Ten and Big East.

[Saint3333]

If the Sun Belt is so bad should App and GSU expect a 70% winning percentage they have experienced against the SoCon?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

What visible sports do teams in the SoCon or in your case Patriot compete at a national level in? The Sun Belt had 4 teams in bowls, 2 in the NCAA Basketball Tourney, and 3 in the NCAA Baseball Tourney. I'd say they are competing just fine.

I was speaking from a Temple/AAC perspective.

There's a big gap between the AAC/MWC and the SBC/CUSA. The MAC falls somewhere in between. The divide within the "Other 5"
is another reason for concern imo. Basically, there's 3 tiers in FBS right now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What visible sports do teams in the SoCon or in your case Patriot compete at a national level in? The Sun Belt had 4 teams in bowls, 2 in the NCAA Basketball Tourney, and 3 in the NCAA Baseball Tourney. I'd say they are competing just fine.

How about lacrosse? Navy, perennial top contender, Loyola, 2011 national champs.

[Tribal]

Trade in your Toyota Highlander Hybrid (FCS) because a Jaguar S (low-level FBS) makes you feel better about yourself and damn it, you've worked hard. In the long run, you spend a hell of a lot more money driving it, parts ain't cheap, it isn't reliable, it's impractical, and it loses its luster within a year. Turns out, it isn't the panty-dropper you expected and now you're stuck with it because you overpaid for it when you took an emotional instantly gratifying decision.

I'm hoping this works out for ODU, GSU and Appy but this may be the same mistake UMass made. No way to tell in 2013. I honestly believe gsu (Atlanta's version) will fall on its face because that program had no interest to begin with, they're competing against an established GT, and they seem to make one stupid mistake after another.

The FCS will continue to thrive, no doubt.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Trade in your Toyota Highlander Hybrid (FCS) because a Jaguar S (low-level FBS) makes you feel better about yourself and damn it, you've worked hard. In the long run, you spend a hell of a lot more money driving it, it requires expensive servicing, parts ain't cheap, it isn't reliable, it's impractical, and it loses its luster within a year. Turns out, it isn't the panty-dropper you expected and now you're stuck with it because you overpaid for it.

I'm hoping this works out for ODU, GSU and Appy but this may be the same mistake UMass made. No way to tell in 2013. I honestly believe gsu (Atlanta's version) will fall on its face because that program had no interest to begin with, they're competing against an established GT, and they seem to make one stupid mistake after another.

The FCS will continue to thrive, no doubt.

UMass is still in a very solid bball league. The A10, while not quite as strong as it had been with Xavier/Temple/Butler, is still very viable. The football decision has been a train wreck however.

[chattownmocs]

I don't get these guys bitter comments. get over dude. The only thing i don't get is the jubilation from the fans. Sure it may pad the schools pocket. Sure it will be exciting for a few years. The new opponents maybe an occasional tv game or a few more ESPN highlights. All that will wear off. Then the fan experience takes a huge dip from the fcs level. You aren't playing for a national championship or a playoff spot, or national respect at your level. The rivalries just aren't there.

Even in the best case. You turn into Boise State. How much fun do you think Boise State fans have? Sure it feels great to light up a national power on week 1. Then what do you do? You start playing cupcakes. You start dropping in the polls. You are ridiculed and irrelevant if you lose 1 game. And if you run the table you still aren't good enough because you didn't play a good enough schedule. What a thrill ride that would be game in and game out. I understand it from a monetary standpoint. But as a fan, why do you care of your state school pads their pockets a little more?

[dbackjon]

What visible sports do teams in the SoCon or in your case Patriot compete at a national level in? The Sun Belt had 4 teams in bowls, 2 in the NCAA Basketball Tourney, and 3 in the NCAA Baseball Tourney. I'd say they are competing just fine.

Anybody that get to .500 makes a bowl, usually. That is nothing special.
Both NCAA tourney teams from last year are now in the C-USA (and the only reason they got two teams is that MTSU got upset in conference tourney). Prior to that, the Sunbelt champ was in the play-in game two years in a row.

[Engineer86]

Anybody that get to .500 makes a bowl, usually. That is nothing special.
Both NCAA tourney teams from last year are now in the C-USA (and the only reason they got two teams is that MTSU got upset in conference tourney). Prior to that, the Sunbelt champ was in the play-in game two years in a row.

You had to bring up those details. It sounded so much better until you did that. xrolleyesx

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

How about lacrosse? Navy, perennial top contender, Loyola, 2011 national champs.

Lacrosse.... xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lacrosse.... xlolx

Lacrosse is on par with wrestling, baseball and hockey right now. Football and basketball are still the most important sports by a huge margin.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lacrosse.... xlolx


Lacrosse is on par with wrestling, baseball and hockey right now. Football and basketball are still the most important sports by a huge margin.

Ask the B1G and ACC how important lacrosse is. xcoffeex

[Waco Kid]

I was speaking from a Temple/AAC perspective.

There's a big gap between the AAC/MWC and the SBC/CUSA. The MAC falls somewhere in between. The divide within the "Other 5"
is another reason for concern imo. Basically, there's 3 tiers in FBS right now.


Nowhere in your post did you mention the AAC or MWC. The size of the "gap" is debatable at this point with all the turnover in all the leagues. I believe the Sun Belt suffers from old and outdated opinions about the conference. It's been getting better every year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Nowhere in your post did you mention the AAC or MWC. The size of the "gap" is debatable at this point with all the turnover in all the leagues. I believe the Sun Belt suffers from old and outdated opinions about the conference. It's been getting better every year.

You must not have read the whole thread. My first post was...

"This article also points to the divide within the "Other 5". Schools like App St, GSU, FIU, ULL etc. have almost nothing in common with the Temple's, UConn's and UNLV's of the world.

The AAC and MWC need to keep pushing forward to ensure they remain viable nationally. The MAC needs to do the same."

[Waco Kid]

How about lacrosse? Navy, perennial top contender, Loyola, 2011 national champs.

I thought we were talking about visible sports (your words not mine)? I like Lacrosse and yes it draws well in certain parts of the country and for the championship, but it is mid pack in terms of visibility in college sports. If those are the standards we're using then I'll point out App's Track and field program which has over 20 conference championships in both men's and women's as well as several Nation Champions and Olympians.

Lacrosse has nowhere near the popularity as baseball nationwide.

[Waco Kid]

Anybody that get to .500 makes a bowl, usually. That is nothing special.
Both NCAA tourney teams from last year are now in the C-USA (and the only reason they got two teams is that MTSU got upset in conference tourney). Prior to that, the Sunbelt champ was in the play-in game two years in a row.

Of course the 4 Sun Belt teams in bowls had records of 10-3, 9-4, 8-5, 7-6 so they weren't just a bunch of .500 teams. The basketball teams are leaving but this wasn't the only year they've had multiple teams in. The conference we are coming from has NEVER had multiple teams in so this is still an upgrade.

[Waco Kid]

You must not have read the whole thread. My first post was...

"This article also points to the divide within the "Other 5". Schools like App St, GSU, FIU, ULL etc. have almost nothing in common with the Temple's, UConn's and UNLV's of the world.

The AAC and MWC need to keep pushing forward to ensure they remain viable nationally. The MAC needs to do the same."


I read it but that was not the post I was responding to nor the point I was trying to make. Nice job of trying to redirect.

Also, anyone using Temple and UCONN as standards for football programs is fighting a losing battle. UCONN found out how big time they were in the Fiesta Bowl a few years back and haven't been heard from since.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I read it but that was not the post I was responding to nor the point I was trying to make. Nice job of trying to redirect.

Also, anyone using Temple and UCONN as standards for football programs is fighting a losing battle. UCONN found out how big time they were in the Fiesta Bowl a few years back and haven't been heard from since.

The post you picked was in response to an "Other 5" comment. Never once did i mention anything about the Patriot League. Everything i post in these threads is from a Temple/AAC perspective. I don't get into the FCS vs FBS banter much.

As for Temple and Uconn, basketball drives the bus. Football simply isn't that important, nor does it need to be. In fact, one could argue that football has done more harm than good at a lot of these schools (Temple, UConn, Memphis, UMass). Which goes back to my point that the SBC/CUSA is neither good in football or basketball. Hence, they have nothing in common with top hoops leagues like the AAC, MWC. Heck, the MV(F)C is more respected because of the conferences success in basketball.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

Sure it will be exciting for a few years. The new opponents maybe an occasional tv game or a few more ESPN highlights. All that will wear off. Then the fan experience takes a huge dip from the fcs level.

Ye, I sure am going to miss the fan experience of playing in stadiums with 10,000 (or less) fans most of the time.

[/QUOTE]You aren't playing for a national championship or a playoff spot, or national respect at your level.[/QUOTE]

I realize it is hard for some of you to understand but I'd rather play a regular schedule our fans care about than tolerating a schedule where only 1-2 games are interesting. Just to get to a playoff few people care about.

[/QUOTE]The rivalries just aren't there.[/QUOTE]

Yea we have some big time rivalry games in the SoCon. Series records: Citadel 29-12, Chattanooga 26-10, Elon 30-9, Samford 6-0, Wofford 17-11, WCU 57-18, *Furman 22-18 (ASU leads 11-3 since 2000)

[/QUOTE]You start playing cupcakes.[/QUOTE]

Yea, we don't play any cupcakes now.

[/QUOTE]You are ridiculed and irrelevant if you lose 1 game.[/QUOTE]

Heck, we get ridiculed and perceived as irrelevant when we win a national championship!

[/QUOTE]I understand it from a monetary standpoint. But as a fan, why do you care of your state school pads their pockets a little more?[/QUOTE]

I have no idea what you're talking about. But it sounds like you're cheapskate who wants to pay as little as possible to see your team play. As a grad and fan of App State I'm happy to pay higher prices to see better competition. But that's why App is moving on and UTC is stuck in the SmallCon. At least your team will have an outside chance ow winning the championship now.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

The post you picked was in response to an "Other 5" comment. Never once did i mention anything about the Patriot League. Everything i post in these threads is from a Temple/AAC perspective. I don't get into the FCS vs FBS banter much.

As for Temple and Uconn, basketball drives the bus. Football simply isn't that important, nor does it need to be. In fact, one could argue that football has done more harm than good at a lot of these schools (Temple, UConn, Memphis, UMass). Which goes back to my point that the SBC/CUSA is neither good in football or basketball. Hence, they have nothing in common with top hoops leagues like the AAC, MWC. Heck, the MV(F)C is more respected because of the conferences success in basketball.

So, you are using basketball schools as an example of football programs - since this is a football message board - App will never be competitive with. Nice! xlmaox

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

So, you are using basketball schools as an example of football programs - since this is a football message board - App will never be competitive with. Nice! xlmaox

Some of Yeager's comments were in reference to a schools overall athletic program, not just football.

[Engineer86]

I thought we were talking about visible sports (your words not mine)? I like Lacrosse and yes it draws well in certain parts of the country and for the championship, but it is mid pack in terms of visibility in college sports. If those are the standards we're using then I'll point out App's Track and field program which has over 20 conference championships in both men's and women's as well as several Nation Champions and Olympians.

Lacrosse has nowhere near the popularity as baseball nationwide.

One trajectory is down nationally, and on trajectory is strongly up. xcoffeex

[MplsBison]

UMass is still in a very solid bball league. The A10, while not quite as strong as it had been with Xavier/Temple/Butler, is still very viable. The football decision has been a train wreck however.

You should probably give them more than one season. Western Kentucky took a few years to get competitive in the Sun Belt.

[MplsBison]

Ask the B1G and ACC how important lacrosse is. xcoffeex

He said on par with wrestling and hockey. Those are two sports that the B1G will be dominant in next season and get plenty of coverage on BTN.

[ASUMountaineer]

vandy, duke, bc (sans Matty Ryan), maryland have ALREADY signed up for a lifetime of losing seasons.

y'all tell each other and yourselves whatever you must to make yourselves feel better but when the bcs secession happens, and it will, you will have spent a ton of money for something you could have gotten for free and alienated those which you once came hat in hand to be confederated with.

It seems to be working for you...

[ASUMountaineer]

Ehhh, maybe a happy meal with a toy.

Man, you Lehigh guys have a serious case of groupthink going on...

[ASUMountaineer]

This article also points to the divide within the "Other 5". Schools like App St, GSU, FIU, ULL etc. have almost nothing in common with the Temple's, UConn's and UNLV's of the world.

The AAC and MWC need to keep pushing forward to ensure they remain viable nationally. The MAC needs to do the same.

We also have nothing in common with the Lehigh's, Jacksonville's, or Davidson's of the world...

[ASUMountaineer]

How about lacrosse? Navy, perennial top contender, Loyola, 2011 national champs.

What is "lacrosse?"

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

We also have nothing in common with the Lehigh's, Jacksonville's, or Davidson's of the world...

Which is why the SBC and CUSA should form their own alliance and basically play for their own championship. Similar to what the PFL and NEC did back in the day....

[TheDancinMonarch]

Which is why the SBC and CUSA should form their own alliance and basically play for their own championship. Similar to what the PFL and NEC did back in the day....

Boy that would be one hot ticket.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Boy that would be one hot ticket.

It would be an improvement from a SBC perspective. Their champ is slated to play the 6th place CUSA team. xsmiley_wix

[AppMan]

Boy that would be one hot ticket.

You do realize ODU is joining CUSA?

[AppMan]

It would be an improvement from a SBC perspective. Their champ is slated to play the 6th place CUSA team. xsmiley_wix

Funny how the SB champ Lafayette played and beat ECU last year. ECU finished at 7-1 and in a 3 way tie for the 1st place in CUSA.

[Saint3333]

Actually ULL was the 2nd place Belt team.

[ASUMountaineer]

Which is why the SBC and CUSA should form their own alliance and basically play for their own championship. Similar to what the PFL and NEC did back in the day....

CUSA tried to do that with the MWC. It's tough to do.

[MplsBison]

CUSA and MWC tried to merge into a conference that they thought would then have a fighting chance at taking the former Big East's spot as the sixth BCS conference.

I believe that was before the playoff negotiations got going.


There would be no point in a merger between those two now, since they've both (and the Big East/AAC) relegated to the other five in the new playoff TV deal.


On the other hand, they could easily create a new bowl game and pledge to send their champions to such a bowl game moving forward. That would be easy to do and might generate some interest.

As far as I know, all of the other five conferences are looking to start new bowl games so they can send more of their teams to post-season, now that the main five conferences have consolidated the existing bowl games into more main five vs. main five games.

[MplsBison]

Great article with quotes from MVFC commissioner Patty Viverito in the Fargo Forum today:

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/407524/group/Sports/


“If a line is drawn to separate the top FBS from the rest, the Valley teams should fare well in the next level of Division I football, however it’s defined,” Viverito said. “I think it’s pretty clear the top FBS conferences look very different from the bottom five FBS conferences and I think the top of the FCS looks a whole lot more like the bottom of the FBS than the ones I mentioned first.”

Those bottom five FBS leagues are the Sun Belt, Mid-American, Conference USA, Mountain West and American Athletic. Georgia Southern and Appalachian State will join the Sun Belt next year.

They both, however, are ineligible for the FCS playoffs this season because of the reclassification.

“I can’t imagine the bottom half of the FBS is going to go along with that kind of realignment without a fight,” Viverito said. “But I do think the five commissioners of those high resource conferences have made it very clear that they want to be able to spend their money and govern themselves in a way that is unencumbered by the rest of Division I. And I think we look a lot like those other five leagues.”


Basically saying exactly what I said. Although one thing I would point out is that programs like Boise State, San Diego St, East Carolina, Cincinnati and UConn most definitely do not look like top FCS programs.


Here's the thing I'm wondering: if it does come to pass that the big five conference get their own NCAA sub-division in football that has its own rules (particularly in regards to scholarships) and if the new "Tier II" sub-division is indeed slated to be a mixture of the remaining FBS conferences and some of the better FCS conferences - how will the post season work?

I don't think the FBS leagues will want to stop sending their teams to bowl games. And the FCS conferences will probably not want to give up the play-off.

Do you have both in parallel? A hybrid system? Force one group to submit under the other type?

[MplsBison]

And more from Viverito, this time on ESPN in regards to FBS scheduling:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/9518511/missouri-valley-commissioner-patty-viverito-says-schedule-ban-kill-fcs


If the Big Five stop scheduling FCS teams all-together, then I'm not sure it really makes financial sense for NDSU to schedule MAC and MWC teams every year in their places for guarantees south of $300k. Seems like we can make more money playing at home, as long as the guarantees we pay are less than $200k. Or perhaps the best solution is to go back to the good ole' "home and home" non-conference. But I only accept that if they include astronomical buy-out clauses.

[Sitting Bull]

I don't think the FBS leagues will want to stop sending their teams to bowl games. And the FCS conferences will probably not want to give up the play-off.

Interesting question. I would guess these lower level conferences may want to maintain bowls but once you take out the BCS powers and their bowl tie-ins, what's left doesnt seem to be either appealling or financially viable. If they best you can do is the Beef O'Brady's Bowl with 20,000 fans, not sure it works.

[MplsBison]

Interesting question. I would guess these lower level conferences may want to maintain bowls but once you take out the BCS powers and their bowl tie-ins, what's left doesnt seem to be either appealling or financially viable. If they best you can do is the Beef O'Brady's Bowl with 20,000 fans, not sure it works.

Then why are the lower five conferences scrambling to set-up new bowl games amongst themselves? You could argue it's so they have some kind of post-season to participate in, I suppose. But I don't an NCAA playoff bringing them any more money (or costing them less, if you want to put it that way).

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Then why are the lower five conferences scrambling to set-up new bowl games amongst themselves? You could argue it's so they have some kind of post-season to participate in, I suppose. But I don't an NCAA playoff bringing them any more money (or costing them less, if you want to put it that way).

If they want those bowl games then good for them. Enjoy em'. Don't think they'll see a lot of upper FCS wanting to join that when it's pretty likely the incentive is even less than before. Get rid of the bowl games and move to a playoff then maybe it's an opening to being like minded enough that other top FCS conferences/teams would entertain the ieea.

[Tribal]

If they want those bowl games then good for them. Enjoy em'. Don't think they'll see a lot of upper FCS wanting to join that when it's pretty likely the incentive is even less than before. Get rid of the bowl games and move to a playoff then maybe it's an opening to being like minded enough that other top FCS conferences/teams would entertain the ieea.

You said it, brother!

[MplsBison]

So then, Tribal and ursus, if the NCAA set it up like the following:

Tier I sub-division: top five conferences only - new rules for scholarships - the new bowl "playoff" and bowl games between Tier I teams only (no playoff will be operated by the NCAA)
Tier II sub-division: lower five conferences, but FCS conferences can apply to be included - 60 scholarship minimum, 85 max - bowl games between Tier II teams only (no playoff will be operated by the NCAA)
Tier III sub-division: FCS conferences that don't choose to move to Tier II - no scholarship minimum, 63 max - NCAA will operate a play-off under same rules as FCS play-off now


you both would advocate for your respective schools to "stay" in Tier III rather than opting to move up to Tier II?


Myself, I would absolutely advocate (to put it mildly...more like jump up and down screaming) for NDSU and the MVFC to move from Tier III to Tier II.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Tier II would be losing so much money that they'd all voluntarily go to 60 scholarships just to scrape by, where they then would choose to either join the FCS or drop football altogether. The NCAA would have to sponsor and run T-II's "bowl games" because free enterprise would not allow anyone to actually go forward and make money at it, thus eliminating the only reason to play 90% of bowl games.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

So then, Tribal and ursus, if the NCAA set it up like the following:

Tier I sub-division: top five conferences only - new rules for scholarships - the new bowl "playoff" and bowl games between Tier I teams only (no playoff will be operated by the NCAA)
Tier II sub-division: lower five conferences, but FCS conferences can apply to be included - 60 scholarship minimum, 85 max - bowl games between Tier II teams only (no playoff will be operated by the NCAA)
Tier III sub-division: FCS conferences that don't choose to move to Tier II - no scholarship minimum, 63 max - NCAA will operate a play-off under same rules as FCS play-off now


you both would advocate for your respective schools to "stay" in Tier III rather than opting to move up to Tier II?


Myself, I would absolutely advocate (to put it mildly...more like jump up and down screaming) for NDSU and the MVFC to move from Tier III to Tier II.

Yes. Nothing different here than before. I don't care that it's labeled tier whatever, it's still the same as it was before. When it's all said and done the tier 2 schools (most of them) are gonna be harder up for a change than the FCS schools will be. Just my opinion but that's how it looks ot me at this point. Tier 2 is probably gonna want to trim some costs at some point in the future and schollies and bowls will be where it will probably come from unless those lower bowls start making it more worth their while.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Tier II would be losing so much money that they'd all voluntarily go to 60 scholarships just to scrape by, where they then would choose to either join the FCS or drop football altogether. The NCAA would have to sponsor and run T-II's "bowl games" because free enterprise would not allow anyone to actually go forward and make money at it, thus eliminating the only reason to play 90% of bowl games.

You are going to dramatic extremes here LFN. The MWC and CUSA would be dragged kicking and screaming about dropping that many scholly's and it wouldn't happen. I could see 73-75 scholarships being a possibility to make MPLS' tier 2, with a playoff, a reality.

Bowls and it wouldn't happen. Especially not the bowls that would be available.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You are going to dramatic extremes here LFN. The MWC and CUSA would be dragged kicking and screaming about dropping that many scholly's and it wouldn't happen. I could see 73-75 scholarships being a possibility to make MPLS' tier 2, with a playoff, a reality.

Bowls and it wouldn't happen. Especially not the bowls that would be available.

No question it was extreme, but I was being dramatic to show how silly that proposal actually was.

[Saint3333]

Lehigh to tier three, it's coming.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh to tier three, it's coming.

I think you're going to be very, very surprised at what's coming.

[MplsBison]

Tier II would be losing so much money that they'd all voluntarily go to 60 scholarships just to scrape by, where they then would choose to either join the FCS or drop football altogether. The NCAA would have to sponsor and run T-II's "bowl games" because free enterprise would not allow anyone to actually go forward and make money at it, thus eliminating the only reason to play 90% of bowl games.

Why aren't the lower FBS schools dropping down now? Why are the lower FBS schools moving forward with creating new bowl games, sponsored by free enterprise among themselves?


As always, you vastly overestimate the expense of lower FBS football. That doesn't really say it... you're wishful. You *want* those schools to lose so much money that they drop football.

They kicked your dog, as it were.

[MplsBison]

Yes. Nothing different here than before. I don't care that it's labeled tier whatever, it's still the same as it was before. When it's all said and done the tier 2 schools (most of them) are gonna be harder up for a change than the FCS schools will be. Just my opinion but that's how it looks ot me at this point. Tier 2 is probably gonna want to trim some costs at some point in the future and schollies and bowls will be where it will probably come from unless those lower bowls start making it more worth their while.

If it's all the same as before and none of the lower FBS schools are dropping down to FCS now...why will they choose to drop from Tier II to Tier III?

As I proposed, Tier II already has a 60 scholarship minimum. That should be plenty low enough. The FBS minimum now is 76.5 scholarship equivalencies.


But anyway...OK, now how about this tweak:

Tier II - the NCAA will operate a playoff under the same rules as the FCS playoff (or smaller, say 16 teams). BUT, teams may also choose to play in a bowl game instead of going to the NCAA Tier playoff. Note that this is basically the case in FCS now, given that the SWAC does their own "bowl game" instead of playing in the playoff. It's just that, perhaps most of the teams in this Tier II would prefer a bowl game instead of the NCAA Tier playoff. Maybe..

NOW, do you accept the Big Sky applying for membership in Tier II (alongside the Mountain West)?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why aren't the lower FBS schools dropping down now? Why are the lower FBS schools moving forward with creating new bowl games, sponsored by free enterprise among themselves?


As always, you vastly overestimate the expense of lower FBS football. That doesn't really say it... you're wishful. You *want* those schools to lose so much money that they drop football.

They kicked your dog, as it were.

They are not dropping down now because, like everyone else, they are seeing where this Division 4 talk is going.

[MplsBison]

They are not dropping down now because, like everyone else, they are seeing where this Division 4 talk is going.

Why didn't they drop down five years ago?

[AppMan]

Great article with quotes from MVFC commissioner Patty Viverito in the Fargo Forum today:

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/407524/group/Sports/




Basically saying exactly what I said. Although one thing I would point out is that programs like Boise State, San Diego St, East Carolina, Cincinnati and UConn most definitely do not look like top FCS programs.


Here's the thing I'm wondering: if it does come to pass that the big five conference get their own NCAA sub-division in football that has its own rules (particularly in regards to scholarships) and if the new "Tier II" sub-division is indeed slated to be a mixture of the remaining FBS conferences and some of the better FCS conferences - how will the post season work?

I don't think the FBS leagues will want to stop sending their teams to bowl games. And the FCS conferences will probably not want to give up the play-off.

Do you have both in parallel? A hybrid system? Force one group to submit under the other type?

Just more fear mongering and nothing but pure conjecture on her part. It seems the FCS Commissioners have come up with some talking points to calm the fears of their members. Take away the question as to the future of FCS and turn it around to the G5 schools. The whole we're far better off than those guys moving up stuff is getting a little annoying. Why these people can't just leave us along and allow us to go in peace is beyond me.

[MplsBison]

Just more fear mongering and nothing but pure conjecture on her part. It seems the FCS Commissioners have come up with some talking points to calm the fears of their members. Take away the question as to the future of FCS and turn it around to the G5 schools. The whole we're far better off than those guys moving up stuff is getting a little annoying. Why these people can't just leave us along and allow us to go in peace is beyond me.

It's reasonable conjecture. Every commissioner of the big five conferences have come out demanding change in the NCAA. Point is, they want to give super scholarships.

There's going to have to be another sub-division in football to allow that to happen.


I don't see anything there to be afraid of. You're still going to be members of the Sun Belt and that conference is still going to be in the same sub-division as CUSA and the AAC.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

If it's all the same as before and none of the lower FBS schools are dropping down to FCS now...why will they choose to drop from Tier II to Tier III?

As I proposed, Tier II already has a 60 scholarship minimum. That should be plenty low enough. The FBS minimum now is 76.5 scholarship equivalencies.

I never said anyone would choose to drop to anything. I said "have fun". In fact I think you are confusing an argument with another poster as one I made because all I said was if there are bowls then I can't see it happening.




But anyway...OK, now how about this tweak:

Tier II - the NCAA will operate a playoff under the same rules as the FCS playoff (or smaller, say 16 teams). BUT, teams may also choose to play in a bowl game instead of going to the NCAA Tier playoff. Note that this is basically the case in FCS now, given that the SWAC does their own "bowl game" instead of playing in the playoff. It's just that, perhaps most of the teams in this Tier II would prefer a bowl game instead of the NCAA Tier playoff. Maybe..

NOW, do you accept the Big Sky applying for membership in Tier II (alongside the Mountain West)?

Yes. I've said that all along. Get rid of bowls (or leave them as a last ditch for teams not wanting in the playoff) and now we're talking about basically FCS with more scholarships (slightly) and a floor on scholarships so then it is something worth giving serious consideration and even supporting.

Already have the FCS format and I'm quite happy where we're at but if something like that were to come about then most of the things I dislike about FBS would be gone. Bowls would become quickly irrelevant in that scenario except as an NIT type thing...or basically what they are now.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Just more fear mongering and nothing but pure conjecture on her part. It seems the FCS Commissioners have come up with some talking points to calm the fears of their members. Take away the question as to the future of FCS and turn it around to the G5 schools. The whole we're far better off than those guys moving up stuff is getting a little annoying. Why these people can't just leave us along and allow us to go in peace is beyond me.

They are making valid points and showing certain hurdles that will be in the path of a couple of really good and well supported teams. It is going to be very tough, and even tougher if the top conferences get what they want (not being considered peers with lower level FBS schools) and separate slightly. So if it's gonna be a tough row to hoe for a couple of schools like App & GSU then how tough would it be for other schools/fanbases that don't have nearly the level of support that those two schools do?

Their comments are on point as far as I can see.

[Sitting Bull]

Then why are the lower five conferences scrambling to set-up new bowl games amongst themselves? You could argue it's so they have some kind of post-season to participate in, I suppose. But I don't an NCAA playoff bringing them any more money (or costing them less, if you want to put it that way).

Because its the only thing they can do. None of them want to be playing each other. They have all tried to position bowl tie-ins with the 7th place team of a CBS conference. That's now over.

It's the Beef O'Bradys Bowl or bust. If they don't play in somebody's backyard like Mobile, Detroit or Little Rock, no one will show up.

It looks like FCS teams trying to imitate the big boys. It looks sad on TV - whether it's a near empty Tropicana Field or a Tuesday night showdown in front of 5,000 people trying to act like 50,000.

Whatever floats your boat.

[Saint3333]

I think you're going to be very, very surprised at what's coming.

Let's hear it. Tell me today where App will be in ten years and where Lehigh will be. I can't wait to hear.

[AppMan]

They are making valid points and showing certain hurdles that will be in the path of a couple of really good and well supported teams. It is going to be very tough, and even tougher if the top conferences get what they want (not being considered peers with lower level FBS schools) and separate slightly. So if it's gonna be a tough row to hoe for a couple of schools like App & GSU then how tough would it be for other schools/fanbases that don't have nearly the level of support that those two schools do?

Their comments are on point as far as I can see.

Viverito said. “All of the folks that say they’re moving to FBS because there’s more money … yes, there is more revenue but the expenses are going to outstrip any gained revenues on average by $1 to $2 million per year.”

In the case of ASU, and I'm pretty sure GSU as well, she is making a statement that simply isn't true. There has not been one word said or written by either administration indicating the move is being made "for the money". There have been comments about how the increased revenues will help offset the cost of moving, but the move is being made for the enhancement of the university and to put us in competition with more like minded schools. App & GSU have little in common with private schools of enrollments of 5000 and less. In reality UTC and Western don't either, but they do not have the financial wherewithal to make the move. It would make far more sense for those guys to join the OVC.

“I think the top of the FCS looks a whole lot more like the bottom of the FBS than the ones I mentioned first (top of FBS). And I think we look a lot like those other five leagues.”

The top what of FCS? There are 4 or 5 schools max remaining after App, GSU & ODU who even remotely look like a G5 program. In terms of attendance Montana 25,236, James Madison 22,783, Delaware 18,542, ND St. 18,516, Montana St. 17,627, Southern 16,602, Tennessee St.16,586, Liberty 16,318, South Carolina St. 16,179, Jacksonville St. 16,006 & Alabama St. 15,514 meet minimum requirements. But there are perhaps 3-4 who have budgets remotely close to G5 conference schools. She is so far off base.

[AppMan]

Let's hear it. Tell me today where App will be in ten years and where Lehigh will be. I can't wait to hear.

I can't wait to hear this either.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Because its the only thing they can do. None of them want to be playing each other. They have all tried to position bowl tie-ins with the 7th place team of a CBS conference. That's now over.

It's the Beef O'Bradys Bowl or bust. If they don't play in somebody's backyard like Mobile, Detroit or Little Rock, no one will show up.


I agree with this. No network is going to be interested in giving that "Tier II" group serious money to televise a playoff. It would be a financial debacle. It is bowls or bust for that group.

There are about 10-12 schools in "Tier II" that are in true limbo-land (UConn, Boise State, SDSU, South Florida, Cincinnati, ECU, the service academies, and a couple others). I'm not sure what the answer for those schools is right now if "Division 4" materializes.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Viverito said. “All of the folks that say they’re moving to FBS because there’s more money … yes, there is more revenue but the expenses are going to outstrip any gained revenues on average by $1 to $2 million per year.”

In the case of ASU, and I'm pretty sure GSU as well, she is making a statement that simply isn't true. There has not been one word said or written by either administration indicating the move is being made "for the money". There have been comments about how the increased revenues will help offset the cost of moving, but the move is being made for the enhancement of the university and to put us in competition with more like minded schools. App & GSU have little in common with private schools of enrollments of 5000 and less. In reality UTC and Western don't either, but they do not have the financial wherewithal to make the move. It would make far more sense for those guys to join the OVC.

“I think the top of the FCS looks a whole lot more like the bottom of the FBS than the ones I mentioned first (top of FBS). And I think we look a lot like those other five leagues.”

The top what of FCS? There are 4 or 5 schools max remaining after App, GSU & ODU who even remotely look like a G5 program. In terms of attendance Montana 25,236, James Madison 22,783, Delaware 18,542, ND St. 18,516, Montana St. 17,627, Southern 16,602, Tennessee St.16,586, Liberty 16,318, South Carolina St. 16,179, Jacksonville St. 16,006 & Alabama St. 15,514 meet minimum requirements. But there are perhaps 3-4 who have budgets remotely close to G5 conference schools. She is so far off base.

Well we have heard for ages how much better the money is gonna be. It's not the reason for the move then she got it wrong by inferring it is but what she said is true. However I'll concede it is not the reason so you got her on that one.

The second quotation you are just flat dreaming if you think your program looks more like the programs in the top conferences than the programs in the top of FCS. The budgets, crowd sizes, etc. are much more like the top of FCS than the top of FBS especially in the Belt.

[walliver]

Let's hear it. Tell me today where App will be in ten years and where Lehigh will be. I can't wait to hear.

Quite easy:
App will be in Boone, NC.
Lehigh will be in Bethlehem, PA.

Other than that, no-one knows.
We are focused on this "Division 4" talk, which is strange nomenclature since using the current pattern of the number decreasing as the level increases, it should actually be "Division 0". But there are a lot of other issues out there that will have just as much impact, if not more. The O'Bannon lawsuit about player's rights to profit from their own images, current concussion lawsuits, and perhaps most significantly, a la carte pricing for cable and satellite (which would have major repercussions for ESPN).

[Saint3333]

Completely agree walliver, but some here act like they have a crystal ball.

[Engineer86]

Already have the FCS format and I'm quite happy where we're at but if something like that were to come about then most of the things I dislike about FBS would be gone. Bowls would become quickly irrelevant in that scenario except as an NIT type thing...or basically what they are now.

I do not disagree with your comment, but have you seen what college basketball has done in the past few years. Don't worry if you can't make the NIT now, there is always the CBT and the CIT. It is amazing how watered down "post-season" has gotten.

And before five guys jump to hit this button "Yea, even Lehigh thought they should get in with that schedule last year" xlolx

[Engineer86]

Just more fear mongering and nothing but pure conjecture on her part. It seems the FCS Commissioners have come up with some talking points to calm the fears of their members. Take away the question as to the future of FCS and turn it around to the G5 schools. The whole we're far better off than those guys moving up stuff is getting a little annoying. Why these people can't just leave us along and allow us to go in peace is beyond me.

That answer seems pretty simple to me. These commissioners jobs are on the line. They are at risk of losing their better teams to FBS. Member schools surely have a split alumni base with some loudly pushing for a move to FBS, and ADs and Presidents that do not want this are pushing for any support they can get.

While I personally much prefer the FCS to lower tier FBS, and I would expect a majority on here would say the same or they would not be so interested in the site, it is each schools decision. I can understand ASU, GSU, or ODU fans complaining about the move (or supporting the move). It seems like most other comments are better served being made to the decision makers at their own institution.

[ASUMountaineer]

Completely agree walliver, but some here act like they have a crystal ball.

Some also act like they know more than the people running the universities. I'm still waiting to hear (for several months) how one, that has no affiliation to a soon-to-be FBS school, knows better how the school should be run than the Chancellor, administration, BOT, and AD. xcoffeex

[Bisonator]

The whole we're far better off than those guys moving up stuff is getting a little annoying. Why these people can't just leave us along and allow us to go in peace is beyond me.

This wasn't a serious comment was it? :D

[PaladinFan]

Some also act like they know more than the people running the universities. I'm still waiting to hear (for several months) how one, that has no affiliation to a soon-to-be FBS school, knows better how the school should be run than the Chancellor, administration, BOT, and AD. xcoffeex

For me, I've never stated that the folks at App didn't know what they were doing. In fact, I think they completely know what they are doing. I think there is a large risk in what they are doing, and they know that. They are embracing that risk.

At the end of the day, these universities have determined the cost is outweighed by the benefit. Only time will tell if they are correct.

[Saint3333]

What percentage of schools that made the move from the FCS to the FBS are worse today from an academic standpoint than they were when they joined the FBS?

Without some risk in life are you really living?

[CID1990]

Completely agree walliver, but some here act like they have a crystal ball.

I agree too- but the crystal ball syndrome has affected people on all sides of the argument, not just the people who are trying to detract from ASU and GSU moving up.

[ASUMountaineer]

For me, I've never stated that the folks at App didn't know what they were doing. In fact, I think they completely know what they are doing. I think there is a large risk in what they are doing, and they know that. They are embracing that risk.

At the end of the day, these universities have determined the cost is outweighed by the benefit. Only time will tell if they are correct.

Please note that my post was not in reference to you, PF. We may not always agree, but you always add to the discussions here. xthumbsupx

[Sitting Bull]

What percentage of schools that made the move from the FCS to the FBS are worse today from an academic standpoint than they were when they joined the FBS?

Without some risk in life are you really living?

None, but to be fair, none of the move-ups have really been academic stalwarts to begin with. If they were, they would probably feel far less inclined to prioritize football as a way to try and boost their image.

[AppMan]

That answer seems pretty simple to me. These commissioners jobs are on the line. They are at risk of losing their better teams to FBS. Member schools surely have a split alumni base with some loudly pushing for a move to FBS, and ADs and Presidents that do not want this are pushing for any support they can get.

While I personally much prefer the FCS to lower tier FBS, and I would expect a majority on here would say the same or they would not be so interested in the site, it is each schools decision. I can understand ASU, GSU, or ODU fans complaining about the move (or supporting the move). It seems like most other comments are better served being made to the decision makers at their own institution.

Yes their job is to shore up their conferences, but the grandstanding and dishing out of all this drama makes them look desperate.

[Saint3333]

None, but to be fair, none of the move-ups have really been academic stalwarts to begin with. If they were, they would probably feel far less inclined to prioritize football as a way to try and boost their image.

To be fair one of the reasons they make the move is to gain exposure to attract better students and it has worked.

[dbackjon]

To be fair one of the reasons they make the move is to gain exposure to attract better students and it has worked.

I thought I remember reading how App State experienced a huge rise in applications after the Michigan win and the NC's?

No one is going to be more inclined to go to Troy because they won the Midas Car Care Bowl.

[Saint3333]

Guess Troy has declined since the move, being on TV helps market your school.

[MplsBison]

I thought I remember reading how App State experienced a huge rise in applications after the Michigan win and the NC's?

No one is going to be more inclined to go to Troy because they won the Midas Car Care Bowl.

Both the win over Michigan and winning three national titles probably drew enough attention for those stories to make the national college football media's radar. Well I know the Michigan win did for sure.

Point being, just making the FCS national championship game doesn't get you any more national exposure than playing in any of the lower bowl games, so there's no reason to think that their applications would go up because of that.

But winning three in a row, perhaps that got them mentioned nationally. Can't recall.

[MplsBison]

Why didn't they drop down five years ago?

No answer LFN?

[Sitting Bull]

To be fair one of the reasons they make the move is to gain exposure to attract better students and it has worked.

Worked for who and what sort of real evidence do you have to say that?

I get why for some schools they want or need to use a change to try and boost their exposure. I think it can make sense. My point is the schools that are primarily making this change really need some way aside from academics to make the case.

In the northeast, three of the newest hot schools for high schoolers up here are Elon, Coastal and College of Charleston. Their exposure is obviously not coming from a one shot Tuesday night TV appearances on ESPN in November. Anybody who watches the pathetic turnouts at these games would be more likely turned off from considering.

[ThompsonThe]

Why don't these schools try to become really good in either football or basketball, or both? That's what I don't get about the SBC/CUSA. None of the schools really compete at a national level in anything, at least not in the visible sports.

At least the MVFC has basketball. That alone allows UNI, Indiana St, Illinois St. athletic programs/school to remain one step ahead of the GSU's, App State's and FIU's of the world.
College basketball has taken a dive as to popularity. Yeah, being in the Northeast they love it, but not nearly as much in the rest of the country as your area.

[Lehigh'98]

Both the win over Michigan and winning three national titles probably drew enough attention for those stories to make the national college football media's radar. Well I know the Michigan win did for sure.

Point being, just making the FCS national championship game doesn't get you any more national exposure than playing in any of the lower bowl games, so there's no reason to think that their applications would go up because of that.

But winning three in a row, perhaps that got them mentioned nationally. Can't recall.


The Michigan game single handedly did more for them than all 3 titles combined. That was the story of the first half of the 2007 season. It went on for weeks after the actual game. The media was actually previewing App's upcoming games.

[MplsBison]

I never said anyone would choose to drop to anything. I said "have fun". In fact I think you are confusing an argument with another poster as one I made because all I said was if there are bowls then I can't see it happening.




Yes. I've said that all along. Get rid of bowls (or leave them as a last ditch for teams not wanting in the playoff) and now we're talking about basically FCS with more scholarships (slightly) and a floor on scholarships so then it is something worth giving serious consideration and even supporting.

Already have the FCS format and I'm quite happy where we're at but if something like that were to come about then most of the things I dislike about FBS would be gone. Bowls would become quickly irrelevant in that scenario except as an NIT type thing...or basically what they are now.

But that's not quite what I'm proposing.

I'm saying basically:

Tier II - the lower bowl games and an NCAA tournament would coexist. Teams would have to pick which they would participate in, much in the same way that the SWAC picks its own bowl game over the NCAA FCS tournament.

Tier III - only an NCAA tournament currently exists, but nothing would stop conferences from playing an independent postseason game or creating a bowl game.


So there you have it, basically the same postseason options in Tier II or Tier III. Then the only difference is scholarship levels and which conferences you rub elbows with.

Which would you want the Big Sky to be in that scenario? Stay in Tier III or apply for Tier II?

[ThompsonThe]

Yes, all that money went towards illegally recruiting 21 year olds from Australia to compete for their hoops team. They will be getting theirs from the NCAA very soon if they haven't already.

You are obsessed with basketball.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

College basketball has taken a dive as to popularity. Yeah, being in the Northeast they love it, but not nearly as much in the rest of the country as your area.

This seems to be true in Montana. UM basketball used to be hugely popular and the Bball fans were as rabid as the football fans have been over the last couple of decades but that sure seems to have diminished even with Bballs fairly successful history recently.

[dbackjon]

This seems to be true in Montana. UM basketball used to be hugely popular and the Bball fans were as rabid as the football fans have been over the last couple of decades but that sure seems to have diminished even with Bballs fairly successful history recently.

And that changed when football went from crappy teams playing in a crappy stadium, getting beat by Idaho, Boise and Nevada to great teams playing in a great stadium.


Combined with the Athletic Department screwing up the seating at the BB arena.

[citdog]

In the northeast, three of the newest hot schools for high schoolers up here are Elon, Coastal and College of Charleston. Their exposure is obviously not coming from a one shot Tuesday night TV appearances on ESPN in November. Anybody who watches the pathetic turnouts at these games would be more likely turned off from considering.


please spread the word that Charleston has ALL of the northeast yankee scum she can handle. tell 'em to all go to ELON.

[dbackjon]

please spread the word that Charleston has ALL of the northeast yankee scum she can handle. tell 'em to all go to ELON.

There can never be enough Yankees around.

[DFW HOYA]

I thought I remember reading how App State experienced a huge rise in applications after the Michigan win and the NC's? No one is going to be more inclined to go to Troy because they won the Midas Car Care Bowl.

I remain suspicious of claims that athletics drives admissions. There is a claim out there that Patrick Ewing's arrival at Georgetown spiked admissions--in fact, the rise of admissions changed markedly in 1978 per a university decision to offer full-need financial aid.

To this day, Georgetown is one of only five I-AA schools outside the Ivy League which offer this. (Doesn't address the FB scholarship issue, of course, but helps a lot of other students.)

[MplsBison]

I agree with this. No network is going to be interested in giving that "Tier II" group serious money to televise a playoff. It would be a financial debacle. It is bowls or bust for that group.

There are about 10-12 schools in "Tier II" that are in true limbo-land (UConn, Boise State, SDSU, South Florida, Cincinnati, ECU, the service academies, and a couple others). I'm not sure what the answer for those schools is right now if "Division 4" materializes.

Did you mean to say you disagree? He was saying lower bowls featuring games between lower five conference members are dead. You're saying a playoff at that tier couldn't be supported and so it's bowls only.

Or did you mean a "playoff" like the big schools are doing? Not a playoff like the NCAA runs for FCS, DII and DIII?

[MplsBison]

Another thing - I disagree that a whole new division is feasible at this time, ie "Division 4".

That would mean the big schools would have their own men's basketball tournament. That kills march madness. And worst of all, the two resultant tournaments (big schools only and mid-majors only) would not sum together to produce the same interest as march madness.

What makes march madness work so well is the big schools vs. the small schools aspect. That's what non sports people care about.


Therefore, the only feasible discussion right now is a new sub-division for football.

[parr90]

Sounds a little disgruntled to me but I understand some of his thoughts. I think it has to be up to the school to which they wish to do. You will spend more. You will win less, although Boise State overall has won more. The statement that a program will never never be a part of the big picture is still remain to be seen. App and GSU for instance, if both continue to win and beat some bigger programs in OOC games in the future then it may be that one of them gets an invite to one of the better conferences down the road. With the way the landscape changes you never know what school will suffer and move out and what teams will thrive and move in. This may be far off or even wishful thinking but it is what these programs are hoping for. It is possible and it will never happen if they dont at least try. I believe that GSU has a chance, with its growth and if they continue to win in the SB, you never know. I think the thought of getting there or arriving so to speak keeps these programs pushing for this goal. Whether they make it or not remains but I for one like to see them trying.

[MplsBison]

parr, we've moved on from Yeager's temper tantrum. Viverito's thoughts are much more lucid.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Did you mean to say you disagree? He was saying lower bowls featuring games between lower five conference members are dead. You're saying a playoff at that tier couldn't be supported and so it's bowls only.

Or did you mean a "playoff" like the big schools are doing? Not a playoff like the NCAA runs for FCS, DII and DIII?

A "Tier II" playoff is not financially feasible. What I interpreted him as saying is that Tier II would be left with bowl games played (mostly) at home sites between fellow Tier II schools, which would be marginally better (but not all that great either).

[ursus arctos horribilis]

And that changed when football went from crappy teams playing in a crappy stadium, getting beat by Idaho, Boise and Nevada to great teams playing in a great stadium.


Combined with the Athletic Department screwing up the seating at the BB arena.

It did have some effect for sure but it did remain very strong until the 1993 season which is when I noticed it dropping off. So we had WaGriz open for 6 yrears and some of the most rabid years for MT Bball were 90-92 and then dropped off quickly. The feeling is just way different now even with success the excitement is fairly muted.

Delvon Anderson, Gary Kane, Roger Fastings, Darren Engellant, Kevin Kearney...those were huge years for Griz Bball. That is why the AD at the time thought he'd cash in and ruin the student sections I guess. Good work Bill and whoever else thought was a great idear.

[MplsBison]

A "Tier II" playoff is not financially feasible. What I interpreted him as saying is that Tier II would be left with bowl games played (mostly) at home sites between fellow Tier II schools, which would be marginally better (but not all that great either).

Why couldn't the NCAA hold for Tier II exactly what they do for FCS (Tier III), DII and DIII ???


All they have to do is extend invitations to each conference champion and fill the rest in with at-larges. If the champions decline because they'd rather play in bowl games, so be it - more at-larges or perhaps it goes to the runner-up.

In any case, I can't see how the FCS style playoff couldn't work having teams like Colorado St, Troy, Akron, Cincinnati, Tulsa, etc.

[Sitting Bull]

Did you mean to say you disagree? He was saying lower bowls featuring games between lower five conference members are dead

No, I didn't say that. What I said is that lower level bowls are really all the low FBS leagues have to work with now. And the change this year is that they will be almost exclusively pitted against each other (the low level FBS) rather than facing the bottom end teams of BCS conferences - which is what they really want.

Let's face the facts. Georgia Southern isnt moving up so they can build new rivalries with Louisiana Monroe and Texas State - they want to post up against Auburn or Florida State. UMass didn't move up to play Kent State forever either - they want to be Michigan. They all want to play pretend - like they are now one of the really big boys, and have the chance to play them in regular season massacres or in a low level bowl.

Now, that's evaporating very quickly. Instead of MiamiOH getting the chance to play Louisville or Iowa State, they can now look forward to playing Florida International in St. Petersburg. These move-ups, if thats what you want to call it, are now looking like anything but.

[parr90]

Your scenarios border on absurd.

Earth to App Man. The CAA is alive and kicking with stronger cohesion than the Sun Belt and has additional schools who would come aboard if asked. JMU is already presumed out.

The Sun Belt is like the Atlantic Sun, you are at the bottom of the FBS food chain. You better just hope CUSA doesn't just pluck you clean to keep themselves somewhat viable.

First of all the SB and Con USA are about the same as far as football and last year the SB beat USA in head to head games 2/3. Like it or not the SB is getting better in football. SB=USA in football and I think both are better than the Mac.

[dbackjon]

First of all the SB and Con USA are about the same as far as football and last year the SB beat USA in head to head games 2/3. Like it or not the SB is getting better in football. SB=USA in football and I think both are better than the Mac.

Then why did fFIVE SunBelt teams leave for C-USA this year?

[parr90]

I love all the negative comments by people whos teams are still FCS. Nothing wrong with FCS but I would bet that 80% of the folks on this site, if they were honest, would love to see their school make the move to FBS and get the bigger stadium and all the stuff that goes with it.

[Saint3333]

Worked for who and what sort of real evidence do you have to say that?

In your prior post you stated that "none" of the move ups are is a worse place academically. I would refer you to your prior post.

[citdog]

I love all the negative comments by people whos teams are still FCS. Nothing wrong with FCS but I would bet that 80% of the folks on this site, if they were honest, would love to see their school make the move to FBS and get the bigger stadium and all the stuff that goes with it.


some of us have been there and done that whilst pigs ass, ga didn't even have the nuts to field a team.

[Saint3333]

Then why did fFIVE SunBelt teams leave for C-USA this year?

TV money. Results on the field weren't the reason.

[citdog]

First of all the SB and Con USA are about the same as far as football and last year the SB beat USA in head to head games 2/3. Like it or not the SB is getting better in football. SB=USA in football and I think both are better than the Mac.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

[dbackjon]

I love all the negative comments by people whos teams are still FCS. Nothing wrong with FCS but I would bet that 80% of the folks on this site, if they were honest, would love to see their school make the move to FBS and get the bigger stadium and all the stuff that goes with it.

If NAU had a chance to be in a conference that had closer teams (like UNLV, San Diego State, New Mexico, Air Force, Colorado State, Utah State, Fresno State) than what we currently play in, then yes.

Moving to a conference with teams further away, and that we have no history with, just to be FBS, nope.

[ASUMountaineer]

please spread the word that Charleston has ALL of the northeast yankee scum she can handle. tell 'em to all go to ELON.

Actually, they can just take Elon up north. Most in Burlington wouldn't notice. xsmiley_wix

[ASUMountaineer]

There can never be enough Yankees around.

You lie!

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/236396/thumbs/s-JOE-WILSON-YOU-LIE-ASSAULT-RIFLE-large.jpg

[ASUMountaineer]

Then why did fFIVE SunBelt teams leave for C-USA this year?

I wouldn't say that the likes of FIU, FAU, MTSU, and NT did it for football reasons. They did it for the short-term boost in revenue and most likely to be with the schools still left (e.g., North Texas with UTEP and Rice). WKU did it for basketball.

[MplsBison]

No, I didn't say that. What I said is that lower level bowls are really all the low FBS leagues have to work with now. And the change this year is that they will be almost exclusively pitted against each other (the low level FBS) rather than facing the bottom end teams of BCS conferences - which is what they really want.

Let's face the facts. Georgia Southern isnt moving up so they can build new rivalries with Louisiana Monroe and Texas State - they want to post up against Auburn or Florida State. UMass didn't move up to play Kent State forever either - they want to be Michigan. They all want to play pretend - like they are now one of the really big boys, and have the chance to play them in regular season massacres or in a low level bowl.

Now, that's evaporating very quickly. Instead of MiamiOH getting the chance to play Louisville or Iowa State, they can now look forward to playing Florida International in St. Petersburg. These move-ups, if thats what you want to call it, are now looking like anything but.

I think you mean next year, the current bowl contracts go through the 2013 post season (early CY 2014). Next year, many of the big conferences changed their bowl lineups and there are many more big five vs. big five matches, as you say.


So do you have any thoughts on having an NCAA playoff in Tier II as a possible alternative for these teams to low bowl games? Would a system like that make you think more favorably towards such a Tier?

[AppMan]

The Michigan game single handedly did more for them than all 3 titles combined. That was the story of the first half of the 2007 season. It went on for weeks after the actual game. The media was actually previewing App's upcoming games.

You are 100% correct. I'm actually a bit surprised to see it come from someone on this board.

[AppMan]

There can never be enough Yankees around.

A single yankee is 1 too many.

[Sitting Bull]

I think you mean next year, the current bowl contracts go through the 2013 post season (early CY 2014). Next year, many of the big conferences changed their bowl lineups and there are many more big five vs. big five matches, as you say.


So do you have any thoughts on having an NCAA playoff in Tier II as a possible alternative for these teams to low bowl games? Would a system like that make you think more favorably towards such a Tier?

Maybe it is next year - but I thought the Liberty and Independence as examples already signed up new alliances for this year that placed both teams from the BCS world.

As far as the second question, I honestly don't know. Better question for fans of those teams, whether they would be happier with lower bowls against each other or a playoff format. Either way I would think, without the BCS teams involved, both would not be appealling today as it was prior.

[Sitting Bull]

I love all the negative comments by people whos teams are still FCS. Nothing wrong with FCS but I would bet that 80% of the folks on this site, if they were honest, would love to see their school make the move to FBS and get the bigger stadium and all the stuff that goes with it.

I don't think so. Some may but most I think on here would not.

The way things are shaking out, the move up without access to being in play with with some BCS teams on a regular basis isn't going to be that appealling to most still now in FCS. UMass as example is not a position I would want to be in, too much sacrifice for what you get in return.

It depends on the school. What's good or desired from App State will not be the same as Furman. Same with W&M and ODU. From W&M, I don't want to be in a far flung conference with meaningless rivals for the sake of saying we're FBS. I would prefer to stick with games against real rivals like UR, Villanova, Delaware, Patriot teams, Ivy teams, etc, and play our games on Saturdays.

[MplsBison]

Maybe it is next year - but I thought the Liberty and Independence as examples already signed up new alliances for this year that placed both teams from the BCS world.

As far as the second question, I honestly don't know. Better question for fans of those teams, whether they would be happier with lower bowls against each other or a playoff format. Either way I would think, without the BCS teams involved, both would not be appealling today as it was prior.

Sure, but what can they do? Stay at home after the regular season?

You can either play in a 'traditional' bowl game or you can play in an NCAA tournament. I would have having access to either is the best of both worlds.

Don't see why it has to be rigid, "if you're FBS/Tier II you only get bowls, if you're FCS/Tier III you only get the NCAA tournament".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sure, but what can they do? Stay at home after the regular season?

You can either play in a 'traditional' bowl game or you can play in an NCAA tournament. I would have having access to either is the best of both worlds.

Don't see why it has to be rigid, "if you're FBS/Tier II you only get bowls, if you're FCS/Tier III you only get the NCAA tournament".

Bowls only exist at the discretion of the bowls, and the bowls will only keep doing it if they make money. The NCAA has nothing to do with bowls, so they're not steering anything. The schools are making the decision to opt out of NCAA tournaments for an external postseason opportunity.

The smaller bowls won't exist after a split because there won't be enough money in it. TV won't want it, and the conferences won't want to subsidize it, as they do today, without a shot at playing Army, Notre Dame, Stanford or Michigan.

[AppMan]

Then why did fFIVE SunBelt teams leave for C-USA this year?

Supposedly for a better TV deal, but I think those schools are going to be stunned with the next TV contract offered to them. No way the 2015 group receives the same $'s as the current crowd. Also, those schools made the decision to move before the new playoff revenue distribution plan was announced. Before that hit CUSA was hot to expand to 16, but that talk stopped immediately. I'd be willing to bet some of those schools are second guessing the move. I am actually hoping this restructuring of FBS comes about. IMO, the reduced TV revenues which are undoubtedly coming might force the SunBelt and CUSA to restructure into more regional groups. Once Marshall, So Miss, Rice and La Tech come to the realization they are in the same boat as App and Troy they might swallow some of that ego and do what is best for their programs.

[SpiritCymbal]

Let's face the facts. Georgia Southern isnt moving up so they can build new rivalries with Louisiana Monroe and Texas State - they want to post up against Auburn or Florida State.

Facts = not so factual

We can already post up against Auburn or Florida State (AU in '91, FSU in '88 & '90). We can maintain that part and do it for more money. But the biggest difference is that now we'll be playing programs on a weekly basis that are more similar to ours like Troy, MTSU, ECU, etc... as opposed to smaller private schools like Samford, Elon, Mercer, etc...

[citdog]

Facts = not so factual

We can already post up against Auburn or Florida State (AU in '91, FSU in '88 & '90). We can maintain that part and do it for more money. But the biggest difference is that now we'll be playing programs that are more similar to ours like Troy, MTSU, ECU, etc... as opposed to smaller private schools like Samford, Elon, Mercer, etc...


when you win a game next year your program will have FINALLY defeated a FBS team.......

[MplsBison]

Bowls only exist at the discretion of the bowls, and the bowls will only keep doing it if they make money. The NCAA has nothing to do with bowls, so they're not steering anything. The schools are making the decision to opt out of NCAA tournaments for an external postseason opportunity.

The smaller bowls won't exist after a split because there won't be enough money in it. TV won't want it, and the conferences won't want to subsidize it, as they do today, without a shot at playing Army, Notre Dame, Stanford or Michigan.

First reasonable post in a while, yet several corrections to make:

- Conferences would make a decision to opt out of sending their champion to an NCAA Tier II tournament, so that they could send them to a bowl game instead.
- Such a game is not "external" in any sense. I can see "alternate", perhaps.

- Small bowls exist now without any BCS conference team playing in them. In fact, I'm willing to bet that there are a few bowl games that haven't had a BCS conf team for some time.
- All of those bowl games are on TV now, ESPN in fact (compared to ESPN2 for the FCS playoffs)
- "The conferences won't want to subsidize it", are you saying that the BCS conferences pay money to lower bowls now to keep them afloat? I doubt that highly.
Or are you saying that the lower five conferences subsidize those bowl games to keep them alive, in which case those bowls only accept such money because they hope to land a BCS team for a bigger payday?


You're on the thin ice, my pedigree chum. And I shall be beneath you when it breaks.

[SpiritCymbal]

when you win a game next year your program will have FINALLY defeated a FBS team.......

Agreed (assuming we don't go 1-11 with our only win being against Duquesne). It'll be nice to be able to schedule lower level I-A schools instead of having to play top 25 teams 95% of the time.

[citdog]

Agreed. It'll be nice to be able to schedule lower level I-A schools instead of having to play top 25 teams 95% of the time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmQTqsmnr80

[SpiritCymbal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmQTqsmnr80

Congrats?

[Saint3333]

The difference is GSU will have an FBS in HD.

[PhillyApp1]

A single yankee is 1 too many.

That's what THE 111 says about me and how loud I yell at APP games ....security took my megaphone away and people say iwas louder without it ;-)

One Yankee is all APP needs.....to make THE 111 the best section in the stadium xnodx

[AppMan]

I'll never happen because it makes too much sense, but this is what needs to happen.

School Stadium Seating Capacity 2012 Av Attendance

CUSA - NORTH
Appalachian Kidd Brewer Stadium 24,000 27,960
Charlotte Richardson Stadium 15,000
JMU Bridgeforth Stadium 25,000 22,783
Marshall Edwards Stadium 38,000 24,900
Old Dominion SB Ballard Stadium 19,728 20,037
MTSU Johnny Floyd Stadium 30,800 17,700
Western Kentucky Houchens Smith Stadium 22,113 17,400

CUSA - SOUTH
Alabama Birmingham Legion Field 72,000 15,200
Florida Atlantic FAU Stadium 29,400 13,460
Florida International FIU Stadium 20,000 13,600
Georgia Southern Paulson Stadium 14,000 18,490
Georgia State Georgia Dome 28,150 12,310
South Alabama Ladd Peebles Stadium 40,000 16,795
Troy Veterans Memorial Stadium 30,000 20,950

SUNBELT
Arkansas State Liberty Bank Stadium 30,700 26,400
Louisiana Lafayette Cajun Field 31,000 22,860
Louisiana Monroe Malone Stadium 30,425 24,980
Louisiana Tech Joe Aillet Stadium 30,600 25,840
Southern Mississippi Roberts Stadium 36,000 25,750
North Texas Apogee Stadium 30,850 18,900
Rice Rice Stadium 47,000 22,400
Texas El Paso Sun Bowl 51,500 29,375
Texas San Antonio Alamodome 65,000 29,260
Texas State Bobcat Stadium 30,000 18,945

Football Only
NMSU Aggie Memorial Stadium 30,343 14,240

Non Football
ULAR
UT- Arlington

To Big Sky
Idaho Kibble Dome 16,000 12,580

[AppMan]

That's what THE 111 says about me and how loud I yell at APP games ....security took my megaphone away and people say iwas louder without it ;-)

One Yankee is all APP needs.....to make THE 111 the best section in the stadium xnodx

Ignore those folks! You keep on making noise Yankee Boy!

[Sitting Bull]

Sure, but what can they do? Stay at home after the regular season?

You can either play in a 'traditional' bowl game or you can play in an NCAA tournament. I would have having access to either is the best of both worlds.

Don't see why it has to be rigid, "if you're FBS/Tier II you only get bowls, if you're FCS/Tier III you only get the NCAA tournament".

That's their problem. Who knows. Really don't care.

[MplsBison]

That's their problem. Who knows. Really don't care.

It should be Tier III (FCS)'s problem too.

I'd like to see both Tier II and Tier III have dual post season systems. The NCAA playoff shouldn't be the only game in town.

[Sitting Bull]

It should be Tier III (FCS)'s problem too.

I'd like to see both Tier II and Tier III have dual post season systems. The NCAA playoff shouldn't be the only game in town.

But it's not an FCS problem. We have a playoff system already set, the majority of schools are just fine with it and it will go on. The championship game grows in both attendance, interest and media coverage every year.

Not sure why you feel the pickle being created by the BCS programs against the low FBS programs is really something most on here should even care about. It's not the current FCS programs who are trying to elevate into the BCS backyard and now find they are being stiff-armed. Let them work it out.

This quagmire may be more relevant for the MAC or Sun Belt boards, not here. This is an FCS forum. The CAA, MVC, Southern, Patriot, Big Sky, etc. are comfortable where they are and what we have.

[MplsBison]

That's like saying "I don't care if the local public school district wants to build a new high school, I don't have kids in the district, not my problem".

It's going to affect you whether you want to stick your head in the sand or not.


FCS will become Tier III. Surely, the NCAA will continue to operate a postseason tournament for Tier III just like they do for FCS. I also think they should operate a similar tournament for Tier II.

At the same time, I think there should be similar opportunities for bowl games in Tier III as there would undoubtedly be for Tier II teams, if they wanted to participate in that.

[Saint3333]

Let's hear it. Tell me today where App will be in ten years and where Lehigh will be. I can't wait to hear.

I must have missed Lehigh boy's prediction.

[Engineer86]

I must have missed Lehigh boy's prediction.

Ok, here is what I have been told, but I have to be quick before "they" catch me on the computer.

Aug 2013 - Lehigh tells then Local planning board they are buildings 55,000 seat stadium on the large plot of land granted to them in 2012
2014 - Lehigh gains national attention, because Lafayette won't come out for the second half of the game at Yankee Stadium. Accuses Lehigh of running up the score
2015 - Lehigh beats a restricted scholarship Penn St in State College
2016 - Lehigh tells Delaware we will play you but only if you come to our place when we tell you to. Visits to UNH and Nova are planned though
2017 - with a full 65 scholarships Lehigh gives Michigan a money game and beats the 2016 National Champ at home
2018 - there is talk of Lehigh moving up to FBS, but Lehigh rejects that thought. Ten in a row over Lafayette is not enough, we have to be leading the series before dropping them
2020 - Lehigh rejects an invitation to the SEC and accepts one to the ACC. They announce that even with a stepped up program, Lehigh just can't live without comments of a weak league schedule.
2021 - number 2 Lehigh is left out of the 8 team BCS playoff jumped over by #9 Alabama, due to Lehigh's weak schedule

I can't reveal my sources, but this is what I have been told. Sorry it is only 8 years, that is all they told me

[ASUMountaineer]

I must have missed Lehigh boy's prediction.

You won't get a prediction from him. He's just a troll.