Targeting ejection of players

[IBleedYellow]

So, it looks like they can reverse the ejection with instant replay, but the 15 yards still stands.


https://twitter.com/schadjoe/status/359685906770305024

What?

[Professor Chaos]

Idiotic but still progress. At least this will stop the disqualification of a player based on the snap judgment of a referee making a split second decision. I don't get why they can review whether they play was ejection worthy yet not review whether it was flag worthy.

[Bisonator]

So how long before we go to flag football? No contact. xdontknowx

[DFW HOYA]

So, it looks like they can reverse the ejection with instant replay, but the 15 yards still stands.

What about the games without instant replay?

[eaglewraith]

Idiotic but still progress. At least this will stop the disqualification of a player based on the snap judgment of a referee making a split second decision. I don't get why they can review whether they play was ejection worthy yet not review whether it was flag worthy.

Because the penalty still occured, but they can review whether or not it warrants ejection. I've seen hits where the defender SHOULD have been ejected for the hit he layed, but he got away with just the penalty.

The problem is, the ejection is automatic, and there has to be CONCLUSIVE evidence to overturn the ejection. As many calls that already are left standing due to inconclusive evidence, then you might see a lot of ejections. I could see this happening less in FCS though since there isn't replay to review the ejection part of the penalty. It's definitely going to be interesting though.

[Professor Chaos]

Because the penalty still occured, but they can review whether or not it warrants ejection. I've seen hits where the defender SHOULD have been ejected for the hit he layed, but he got away with just the penalty.

The problem is, the ejection is automatic, and there has to be CONCLUSIVE evidence to overturn the ejection. As many calls that already are left standing due to inconclusive evidence, then you might see a lot of ejections. I could see this happening less in FCS though since there isn't replay to review the ejection part of the penalty. It's definitely going to be interesting though.
There are plenty of plays where defenders lead with their shoulders and hit a receiver in the chest or torso and it causes such a violent whiplash by the receiver that they call a personal foul just based on reaction to a terrific hit. What I'm saying is if they're already looking at the play to verify whether or not it warrants an ejection why can't they also evaluate whether or not it warranted a flag at all?

[walliver]

There are plenty of plays where defenders lead with their shoulders and hit a receiver in the chest or torso and it causes such a violent whiplash by the receiver that they call a personal foul just based on reaction to a terrific hit. What I'm saying is if they're already looking at the play to verify whether or not it warrants an ejection why can't they also evaluate whether or not it warranted a flag at all?

I can't speak for the NCAA, but once you start reviewing penalties, would all penalties be reviewable?

[Professor Chaos]

I can't speak for the NCAA, but once you start reviewing penalties, would all penalties be reviewable?
It would be a slippery slope but I could see them doing something similar to what they do in basketball on personal fouls that involve hits to the head. If a head to the head is suspected the referee stops the game (throws his flag or just blows the whistle after the play) and they go to the to replay. They can either decide no foul (no contact to the head), personal foul (inadvertent contact, ie. receive ducks his head), or personal foul and ejection (intentional contact to the head). I just think it's a example of how underutilized replay is. If you're going to slow down the game to look at replay for a potential ejection why not see whether a penalty is even warranted at all?

[tourguide]

This has no effect on FCS except playoffs and games vs FBS schools correct?

[Laker]

They said on ESPN today that according to officials, Clowney's hit would have been an automatic ejection. I wouldn't agree with that.

[clenz]

They said on ESPN today that according to officials, Clowney's hit would have been an automatic ejection. I wouldn't agree with that.

It was helmet to helmet :thumbup:

quando omni flunkus moritati

[Laker]

It was helmet to helmet :thumbup:

quando omni flunkus moritati

But Red Green- can they flag the offensive player for helmet to helmet too?

[heath]

They said on ESPN today that according to officials, Clowney's hit would have been an automatic ejection. I wouldn't agree with that.

Why? Great form tackle.when 280 hits 180, physics takes place.That is just football.Head hits shoulder pad,knocks the crap out of your opponent and football was born.You were either a running back or did not play this great game

[heath]

xthumbsupx
It was helmet to helmet :
quando omni flunkus moritati
since when did players start wearing helmets on their tits.? Watch the replay frame by frame. Any coach would be proud of the technique and outcome,..........unless you are a liberal that thinks the game is too violent. For all you guys,focus on Detroit and Chicago and stay away from tackle football.xthumbsupxl

[RichH2]

Well heath guess I'm a liberal who thinks the rule is unenforceable and porrly thought out. Watched Clowney"s hit frame by frame, hit was shoulder to chest,any attempt to apply the rule afterwards is aisnine and belies the laws of physics 280 will always put 180 on the ground. If that is a penalty,then throw away the pads it is now touch football.

[Hammerhead]

Ballcarrier needs to get a helmet that fits over his dreads.

As heath noted, Clowney made first contact to the ball carrier's chest.

http://www.mentalbreeze.com/sec/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/pic-jadeveon-clowneys-hit-against-michigan.jpg

[Laker]

Why? Great form tackle.when 280 hits 180, physics takes place.That is just football.Head hits shoulder pad,knocks the crap out of your opponent and football was born.You were either a running back or did not play this great game

Heath, why are you chewing on me? I said that I wouldn't agree with the automatic ejection. No, I didn't play running back- I was a tight end and defensive end in high school and a tight end in college.

Please reread my post.

[heath]

Heath, why are you chewing on me? I said that I wouldn't agree with the automatic ejection. No, I didn't play running back- I was a tight end and defensive end in high school and a tight end in college.

Please reread my post.

my bad Laker,just get tired of politics getting into everything,and most of the time making things worse. College football is the best game going,but slowly its going down the tubesxconfusedx

[cmaxwellgsu]

They said on ESPN today that according to officials, Clowney's hit would have been an automatic ejection. I wouldn't agree with that.

Exactly why I hate this rule. It's just another way for the morons in stripes to screw up games. I couldn't imagine seeing what turned out to be the best defensive play of last year's football season wind up in the locker room and the turnover taken away. It also scares because the SoCon is officiated by flag happy idiots....

[IBleedYellow]

In my opinion, anything that allows the refs to eject a player based upon a quick view of a very fast game doesn't sit right with me. The ejection should always be reviewed by instant replay.

[lionsrking2]

I think the officials need to be more concerned with getting this call right before sounding off whether or not Clowney's hit would now warrant an ejection ... this play preceded the hit and is what fired him up in the first place.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k73/selulions/BadCall_zps948fe618.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/selulions/media/BadCall_zps948fe618.jpg.html)

[Twentysix]

I will wait to see this change in action before condemning it. The OP of the thread does raise a good question, one I would love answered.

[bluehenbillk]

Not only is a guy ejected - if the ejection occurs in the second half of a game he has to sit the first half of the following game as well.

[IBleedYellow]

Not only is a guy ejected - if the ejection occurs in the second half of a game he has to sit the first half of the following game as well.

Goodness, I did not know this.

We better hope that in any situation there will be instant replay where this call occurs.

Let's be honest, though, there WILL be ejections from this rule in games where there will not be instant replay, which is going to suck.

[Go Green]

Let's be honest, though, there WILL be ejections from this rule in games where there will not be instant replay, which is going to suck.

Some calls will indeed be missed.

But my experience is that the refs get these right a lot more often than they get them wrong.

[McNeese72]

What happens when a DB goes for a chest or lower tackle and then the WR goes down for a low thrown pass? Or a RB that ducks his head? Or a DB that goes up trying to get a pick, gets there a tad later than the WR, and they hit heads?

There is just too much subjectivity in this for such a severe penalty.

I guess everybody needs to go for knee tackles now and blow out a few knees.

Doc

[IBleedYellow]

Just another article.

This is going to probably suck.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/13/ncaa-may-take-harder-line-than-nfl-on-hits-to-the-head/

[eaglewraith]

It's going to suck if that mentality is used by all referees.

Best thing teams can do is enforce really good fundamentals in tackling. Good footwork and keep your eyes up on your target. Some of it happens I know, but a lot of kids do tend to ignore fundamentals at times when they try to go for the big hit or get caught out of position.

I have a feeling any defender lowering their head is going to be at risk for a flag/ejection this year.

[BJWerth]

Just another article.

This is going to probably suck.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/13/ncaa-may-take-harder-line-than-nfl-on-hits-to-the-head/

Guys, The ejection is for Targeting a Defenseless player. In the case of Clooneys hit, that player by definition was not defenseless therefore while a PF may have been called, this would not lead to an ejection.

Contact to the head or neck area—not only with the helmet, but also with the forearm, fist, elbow, or shoulder—these can all lead to a foul.
Defenseless player—a player not in position to defend himself.
Examples (Rule 2-27-14):
 A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
 A receiver attempting to catch a pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
 A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
 A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick.
 A player on the ground.
 A player obviously out of the play.
 A player who receives a blind-side block.
 A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
 A quarterback any time after a change of possession.
KEY INDICATORS
Risk of a foul is high with one or more of these:
 Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make contact in the head or neck area
 A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with contact at the head or neck area—even though one or both feet are still on the ground
 Leading with helmet, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with contact at the head or neck area
 Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown of the helmet
These indicate less risk of a foul:
 Heads-up tackle in which the crown of the helmet does not strike above the shoulders
 Wrap-up tackle
 Head is to the side rather than being used to initiate contact
 Incidental helmet contact that is not part of targeting but is due to the players changing position during the course of play
HINTS FOR PLAYERS
 Don’t lead with your head
 Lower your target--don’t go for the head or neck area with anything
 Tackle: Heads-up and wrap-up
Rogers Redding

[eaglewraith]

Guys, The ejection is for Targeting a Defenseless player. In the case of Clooneys hit, that player by definition was not defenseless therefore while a PF may have been called, this would not lead to an ejection.

Contact to the head or neck area—not only with the helmet, but also with the forearm, fist, elbow, or shoulder—these can all lead to a foul.
Defenseless player—a player not in position to defend himself.
Examples (Rule 2-27-14):
 A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
 A receiver attempting to catch a pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
 A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
 A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick.
 A player on the ground.
 A player obviously out of the play.
 A player who receives a blind-side block.
 A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
 A quarterback any time after a change of possession.
KEY INDICATORS
Risk of a foul is high with one or more of these:
 Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make contact in the head or neck area
 A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with contact at the head or neck area—even though one or both feet are still on the ground
 Leading with helmet, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with contact at the head or neck area
 Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown of the helmet
These indicate less risk of a foul:
 Heads-up tackle in which the crown of the helmet does not strike above the shoulders
 Wrap-up tackle
 Head is to the side rather than being used to initiate contact
 Incidental helmet contact that is not part of targeting but is due to the players changing position during the course of play
HINTS FOR PLAYERS
 Don’t lead with your head
 Lower your target--don’t go for the head or neck area with anything
 Tackle: Heads-up and wrap-up
Rogers Redding

Bolded is going to be the highest risk. That's why there's some debate about Clowney's hit.

[clenz]

Bolded is going to be the highest risk. That's why there's some debate about Clowney's hit.
Yep...crown of helmet and contact with ball carriers helmet.

I don't get why people get so offended when it is suggested that by actually enforcing the rules and saying Clowney's hit was iffy in that sense.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Yep...crown of helmet and contact with ball carriers helmet.

I don't get why people get so offended when it is suggested that by actually enforcing the rules and saying Clowney's hit was iffy in that sense.

Mainly because it would have negated a tremendous play, and completely changed the outcome of a hard fought game. There will be tight games where this causes controversy. As was already said, you're asking a ref to make a major judgement call in a very fast game. There have already been ejections that were shown by replay to be clean hits, but the refs have shown they will throw the flag when in doubt. To me, it's just too vague and it's overkill when you already have personal fouls and unnecessary roughness on the books...

[clenz]

There are literally hundreds of tremendous plays every year in college football that are wiped out by penalties that change the dynamic, and possibly outcomes, of games.

If a hit breaks the rules it deserves a flag, regardless of you think it is "wussifying" the game

quando omni flunkus moritati

[cmaxwellgsu]

But Clowney's was a textbook hit. Shoulder in chest. We've seen some clean plays get defenders ejected, mainly because when the ball carrier gets hit his head snaps and bounces off the defender. So are really stupid enough to want to see Clowney ejected on a clean, textbook play?

[clenz]

But Clowney's was a textbook hit. Shoulder in chest. We've seen some clean plays get defenders ejected, mainly because when the ball carrier gets hit his head snaps and bounces off the defender. So are really stupid enough to want to see Clowney ejected on a clean, textbook play?
Except it wasn't....

There is a photo in this thread that shows the crown of his helmet right where Smith's facemask would be...if his helmet wasn't taken off by the hit.

I don't think he should be been ejected for the hit...nor do I think the hit was dirty....though going by the rules it warranted a flag. It's people who buy into all of the ESPN hype the hit has gotten that fail to be able to see that.


Also, going by the rules of when a play becomes dead in college football that shouldn't' have been a fumble recovered by Clowney. Smiths helmet comes off before the ball hits the ground, and well before the ball is recovered. According to the rule, as soon as the helmet comes off the play is dead and possession shall be retained....FWIW

[GannonFan]

Not that soccer is a much liked reference on these boards, but this rule, while commendable that it addresses player safety, is going to give the refs some bit fo the same power over games that soccer refs have, and not in a good way. All you need is one bad decision by a ref to toss a guy for a questionable hit, and you can impact the outcome of a game. A red card in soccer has way too much influence on a game (it often prevents a team from having a chance to win) and while football is broad enough in terms of participation and also because you don't need to play with 10 players when a guy gets ejected that the sport won't be as effected in the same way, it's still a bad thing giving a ref this kind of power.

[clenz]

Also...got some footage off of espn this afternoon on the hit.

Thanks to TiVo I can frame by frame it...doing that hurts the case of the "it's not a pentaly/shot to the head/hit him in/with the shoulder first" crowd.

I took this with my phone off of the TV so the quality isn't perfect...but...these two photos are at the exact moment of first impact. Look what hits Smith first and where it hits him. I'll help...crown of the helmet to the throat area. Illegal by any twisting of the rule

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q340/unipanthers10/20130725_162854_zps15b2c647.jpg
http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q340/unipanthers10/20130725_162903_zps71960dae.jpg

[GannonFan]

Nice catch clenz.

[lionsrking2]

Except it wasn't....



IMO, it's perfectly text book and should not be penalized, even using your still photo ... I've watched it dozens, if not 100's of times, in full speed, slo-mo, and still frame ... he puts his helmet right on the ball, slightly below shoulder level, and didn't launch. If this becomes a penalty and an ejection, the unintended consequences for the game of football won't be good.

[clenz]

He lead with the crown of his helmet, that is illegal no matter where you hit the guy...even more so when you hit him ABOVE the numbers which had long been known add the “danger"zone for hits


I honestly don't know what you're looking at if you don't see it as a crown first hit at neck level

If he hit him below the shoulders his helmet doesn't come off, or with his shoulder.

quando omni flunkus moritati

[lionsrking2]

He lead with the crown of his helmet, that is illegal no matter where you hit the guy...even more so when you hit him ABOVE the numbers which had long been known add the “danger"zone for hits


I honestly don't know what you're looking at if you don't see it as a crown first hit at neck level

If he hit him below the shoulders his helmet doesn't come off, or with his shoulder.

quando omni flunkus moritati

He doesn't lead with crown, leads with forehead ... not sure how you can't see that. You're trying to use a still to interpret moving parts. Sure, his crown comes in contact with the runner's facemask due to runner's head snapping forward, but that's not leading with the crown. Further illustrates why this is a ridiculous rule, open to ridiculous interpretation.

[heath]

Except it wasn't....

There is a photo in this thread that shows the crown of his helmet right where Smith's facemask would be...if his helmet wasn't taken off by the hit.

I don't think he should be been ejected for the hit...nor do I think the hit was dirty....though going by the rules it warranted a flag. It's people who buy into all of the ESPN hype the hit has gotten that fail to be able to see that.


Also, going by the rules of when a play becomes dead in college football that shouldn't' have been a fumble recovered by Clowney. Smiths helmet comes off before the ball hits the ground, and well before the ball is recovered. According to the rule, as soon as the helmet comes off the play is dead and possession shall be retained....FWIW

If we are looking at the same photo,you must be blind or ignorant. Physics is taking place when Clownys face mask/helmet hit the ball carrier in the chest. Its called whiplash. Also,if players buckled up correctly helmets would stay on more often. xeekx

[lionsrking2]

If we are looking at the same photo,you must be blind or ignorant. Physics is taking place when Clownys face mask/helmet hit the ball carrier in the chest. Its called whiplash. Also,if players buckled up correctly helmets would stay on more often. xeekx

This = +1

[aust42]

Like the NFL these rule changes "in the name of safety" are all about the class action concussion lawsuits. I didn't realize the NCAA was also being sued by some scum liberal Attorney firm. The game of football has changed so dramatically recently I don't even recognize it anymore. It's almost unwatchable. With the "when in doubt, throw them out" mentality the refs will be throwing way too many ridiculous flags for standard hits. I can't imagine what this game will be like in five years. I'm really depressed

[DSUrocks07]

Football is boring now, and this will only make it worse.

This whole, "let's punish the defense for playing defense" crusade that the NFL has been on the last decade is ruining the game, and its happening not because of "safety" but because of lawsuits.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2

[aust42]

Football is boring now, and this will only make it worse.

This whole, "let's punish the defense for playing defense" crusade that the NFL has been on the last decade is ruining the game, and its happening not because of "safety" but because of lawsuits.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2

Roger Goodell's latest "safety rule" will penalize a RB for putting their head down and plowing into a defender outside the box. If their helmuts touch, 15 yard penalty. How many times do you see a RB sweep outside and put their head down trying to get that extra yard for the TD or first down? This is taking football out of the game of football.

This whole thing reminds me of the Government embezzling billions of dollars from the Tobacco Industry under the guise of a class action lawsuit. Consumers have no common sense and didn't know smoking was bad for them so let's create a class action lawsuit and sue because we care about people's health. Who made out in that lawsuit? Attorney's. Attorney Dickie Scruggs, brother-in-law of Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., is said to have gotten more than $800 million. Peter Angelos, Baltimore Orioles owner, got $150 million. The list goes on. Who will benefit the most financially from a settlement or win against the NFL? Lawyers.

[UAalum72]

So is Dickie Scruggs liberal scum, or are right-wing douchebags also allowed to be greedy lawyers?

[aust42]

So is Dickie Scruggs liberal scum, or are right-wing douchebags also allowed to be greedy lawyers?

All Lawyers are greedy scum bags! Especially one's that graduated from Albany. :D

[eaglewraith]

The problem isn't if it's a "clean" hit or not. The problem is that it's close enough to cause it to go either way due to the interpretation of the viewer which could come into play in one of these reviews. I think it was clean, but he DOES lower his head. Anytime a defender lowers his head to deliver a hit from now on, I'm not going to be surprised to see a flag.

[clenz]

The problem isn't if it's a "clean" hit or not. The problem is that it's close enough to cause it to go either way due to the interpretation of the viewer which could come into play in one of these reviews. I think it was clean, but he DOES lower his head. Anytime a defender lowers his head to deliver a hit from now on, I'm not going to be surprised to see a flag.
Yeah....it's not really the area Clowney hit Smith (though it does fall very much within the "danger zone" as laid out by the rules and the helmet is hitting the facemask), it's the fact that he led with the Crown of his helmet.

I really don't understand how some of you can say "he hit him below the chest with his facemask" and that my picture is just a still in the whole of the play. That picture is literally the moment of impact, and it's with the crown of the helmet. Illegal by rule, and has been for YEARS. One of the first rules I was taught when I started tackle football that leading with the crown of the helmet is "spearing" and a penalty

[heath]

Yeah....it's not really the area Clowney hit Smith (though it does fall very much within the "danger zone" as laid out by the rules and the helmet is hitting the facemask), it's the fact that he led with the Crown of his helmet.

I really don't understand how some of you can say "he hit him below the chest with his facemask" and that my picture is just a still in the whole of the play. That picture is literally the moment of impact, and it's with the crown of the helmet. Illegal by rule, and has been for YEARS. One of the first rules I was taught when I started tackle football that leading with the crown of the helmet is "spearing" and a penalty

xlolxxlolxYou've gone from helmet to helmet contact to the crown/spear argument,and you still got it wrong.Give it a break and applaud a text book tackle.In your world Clowny should have cut him in the knees and ended that RBs career. Nicexconfusedx or stopped,let him take the handoff and then escorted the young man to the endzonexsmhx FWIW,the crown of the head/helmet is actually where a beanie is worn,not the forehead but towards the rear.

[Bisonoline]

Roger Goodell's latest "safety rule" will penalize a RB for putting their head down and plowing into a defender outside the box. If their helmuts touch, 15 yard penalty. How many times do you see a RB sweep outside and put their head down trying to get that extra yard for the TD or first down? This is taking football out of the game of football.

This whole thing reminds me of the Government embezzling billions of dollars from the Tobacco Industry under the guise of a class action lawsuit. Consumers have no common sense and didn't know smoking was bad for them so let's create a class action lawsuit and sue because we care about people's health. Who made out in that lawsuit? Attorney's. Attorney Dickie Scruggs, brother-in-law of Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., is said to have gotten more than $800 million. Peter Angelos, Baltimore Orioles owner, got $150 million. The list goes on. Who will benefit the most financially from a settlement or win against the NFL? Lawyers.

Dont forget the govt subsidies and quotas to grow said product.