GSU AD Kleinlein on "Why" the Program is Moving to FBS

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Now that Georgia Southern is in transition to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the program’s athletic director keeps hearing the same question.
“Why?”
Tom Kleinlein took over the job full time in January, and at least twice a week since then, he’s been answering that question at speaking engagements across the state of Georgia and beyond.
“I’m sure that everybody in this room has an opinion on that — right, wrong or indifferent,” Kleinlein said at the Downtown Statesboro Rotary Club’s weekly breakfast meeting at R.J.’s Steakery on Thursday morning. “That was not a move for ego. That was not a move because two people sat in a room and decided they want their names recognized. That was a move for survival.”
The main motivator, Kleinlein said, is revenue to better serve GSU’s student athletes — revenue not available to programs at the Football Championship Subdivision level.
“We played the University of Georgia and got paid $300,000 (in 2012),” Kleinlein said. “Coach (Jeff Monken) had 11 guys, they had 11 guys and the rules were the same for us as they were for the University of Buffalo when they played (UGA the same season). Only difference was, when Buffalo played them, they got paid $900,000.”
He added, “In 2014, we’re going to play Georgia Tech, Navy and N.C. State, three pretty prominent programs. We’ll make $1.9 million.”
Kleinlein stayed with the theme of survival, adding that what the program is leaving behind — the FCS (formerly Division I-AA) — has lost many of its strongest programs over the last decade. He mentioned that now that Georgia Southern and Appalachian State (leaving for the Sun Belt) and Elon (leaving for the Colonial Athletic Association) are exiting the Southern Conference, they are going to be replaced by startup Mercer, East Tennessee State and Virginia Military Institute.
The top of the Division, Kleinlein added, is becoming equally diluted.
“Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football,” he said.
Kleinlein understands that Georgia Southern football, winner of an unprecedented six national championships at the FCS level, is a program steeped in tradition, and that’s why many fans are apprehensive about the change.
He also knows it’s his job to make sure the athletic department grows with the rest of the university and to help make Georgia Southern a nationally-recognized institution.
“I want to grow us, keep driving that revenue, and keep hold of those traditions that make us who we are,” Kleinlein said.
Georgia Southern will play its final SoCon schedule in 2013 and won’t be eligible for the conference championship or the FCS playoffs due to the added scholarships necessary to compete at the FBS level.
The season kicks off at 6 p.m., in Paulson Stadium, on Saturday, Aug. 31, against Savannah State.

Matt Yogus may be reached at (912) 489-9408.

http://www.statesboroherald.com/section/291/article/51688/

I'm sure TK would include ND St. and a few others, but I know he doesn't think NDSU will be FCS much longer either.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"'Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football,' he said."

xlolx Two time national champ NDSU skunked! It's not like you team lost to them in the playoffs or anything... twice... xlolx

*insert obligatory comment that to get that $1.9 million in revenue you lose the revenue of playoff home games and increase your costs much more than $1.9 million per annum, which includes a nice pay raise for all athletics administrators, including Klenlein*

[OL FU]

“Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football"

I don't really disagree with much that he said. Money is always the reason and that is fine. But, from the comment above, I wonder if he has been paying attention the last few years.xeyebrowx

[slycat]

"'Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football,' he said."

xlolx Two time national champ NDSU skunked! It's not like you team lost to them in the playoffs or anything... twice... xlolx

*insert obligatory comment that to get that $1.9 million in revenue you lose the revenue of playoff home games and increase your costs much more than $1.9 million per annum, which includes a nice pay raise for all athletics administrators, including Klenlein*

Sun Belt teams will also get 1M each annually through the new playoff money, plus TV money (in SBC its not a lot but more than FCS), bowl games "can" equal revenue. With GaSo being near Mobile they will get their money back I'm sure from a bowl there and I wouldn't be shocked to see them travel well to NOLA. Of course that money is guareented anymore than FCS playoff money.

App St has seen a large increase in donors. ODU has seen a large increase in donors and corporate sponsers. I think in the end, each school can look at the situation differently and each school knows if they can make money at the next level. Some guess wrong but I think GaSo, App St, ODU, and even Texas St guessed right.

Besides, where do you want to be if the BCS conferences end up breaking away and D1 football is split into three levels?

NDSU and SHSU have proven to be recent powers as well.

[IBleedYellow]

Hey, to each his own. Good comments, but how much more will they need to spend of that 1.9 million that they will "make."

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I agree with Kleinlein in principle but I've never really bought into the whole "the FCS has been watered down" canard.

Let's face it, most of the programs that have made the jump to the FBS are those teams that are merely good, and not the ones that you could consider superpowers. They usually aren't the Montana's Georgia Southerns, App. States, and NDSUs. Teams like GSU and App. are obviously not as replaceable, but the Troys, MTSUs, WKUs, Akrons, and Idahos can be replaced by bringing in strong DII programs.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I agree with Kleinlein in principle but I've never really bought into the whole "the FCS has been watered down" canard.

Let's face it, most of the programs that have made the jump to the FBS are those teams that are merely good, and not the ones that you could consider superpowers. They usually aren't the Montana's Georgia Southerns, App. States, and NDSUs. Teams like GSU and App. are obviously not as replaceable, but the Troys, MTSUs, WKUs, Akrons, and Idahos can be replaced by bringing in strong DII programs.

Good perspective. It seems like Kleinlein needs to dump on FCS in order to make it seem like GSU had to make the jump. Just go and do it already.

His quote about “Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football" is asinine. Those three teams mattered little last year. Two or three schools include:

NDSU
SDSU
SHSU
Central Arkansas
Eastern Washington
Montana State
Illinois State
Wofford
Cal Poly

That's just off the top of my head. Depending on the year there are great OVC and Patriot teams. Now that the playoffs are expanding a Pioneer team could just catch a couple teams flat-footed or get on a hot streak.

FCS is going to be just fine.

[Bisonator]

Hey, to each his own. Good comments, but how much more will they need to spend of that 1.9 million that they will "make."

Exactly. Look at all the other bottom end FBS schools, they are losing money left and right. They spend $10 to make $9! All for the perception of more exposure for the school. xcrazyx

[Hammerhead]

"...the FCS (formerly Division I-AA) — has lost many of its strongest programs over the last decade." ?

This is a list of former FCS schools who's last FCS playoff appearance was in 2000 or later Of these teams, only UMass, WKU, and Troy have more than 2 playoff wins.
Troy Trojans
Hofstra Pride
Northeastern Huskies
Florida Atlantic Owls
Western Kentucky Hilltoppers
UMass Minutemen
Texas State Bobcats

For comparison: GSU has 44 playoff wins and App. State has 24 playoff wins.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm not sure "survival" is the issue here. A clear majority of the upward mobility has been by non-flagship directional schools seeking greater visibility at home and, let's be clear, the increased state aid which follows. If a school like Texas State (nee Southwest Texas State) is somehow perceived as "big time" (as opposed to institutional peers like SFA or Sam), will more state funding follow? Is Middle Mennessee more relevant statewide for being in I-A than being compared to UT-Martin?

By contrast, how many private schools have joined I-A in this matter?

[dewey]

Good perspective. It seems like Kleinlein needs to dump on FCS in order to make it seem like GSU had to make the jump. Just go and do it already.

His quote about “Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football" is asinine. Those three teams mattered little last year. Two or three schools include:

NDSU
SDSU
SHSU
Central Arkansas
Eastern Washington
Montana State
Illinois State
Wofford
Cal Poly

That's just off the top of my head. Depending on the year there are great OVC and Patriot teams. Now that the playoffs are expanding a Pioneer team could just catch a couple teams flat-footed or get on a hot streak.

FCS is going to be just fine.

I would add the following teams;
UNI
SDSU
UCA
Villanova
New Hampshire
Youngstown State
SFA

Just to name a few more.

Dewey

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not sure "survival" is the issue here. A clear majority of the upward mobility has been by non-flagship directional schools seeking greater visibility at home and, let's be clear, the increased state aid which follows. If a school like Texas State (nee Southwest Texas State) is somehow perceived as "big time" (as opposed to institutional peers like SFA or Sam), will more state funding follow? Is Middle Mennessee more relevant statewide for being in I-A than being compared to UT-Martin?

By contrast, how many private schools have joined I-A in this matter?

Yes, more taxpayer money to go towards AD, coaching, and admin salaries.

[Waco Kid]

"'Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football,' he said."

xlolx Two time national champ NDSU skunked! It's not like you team lost to them in the playoffs or anything... twice... xlolx

*insert obligatory comment that to get that $1.9 million in revenue you lose the revenue of playoff home games and increase your costs much more than $1.9 million per annum, which includes a nice pay raise for all athletics administrators, including Klenlein*

You do realize the NCAA takes a large portion of what little revenue is earned by hosting, right? I remember Cobb saying we lost money in 2005 and I believe he said we made a small profit in 2007. Not sure about 2006.

[Dane96]

So, by GSU and others jumping to FBS this does not dilute the top of the FBS pool; he stated that the Mercer's of the world are diluting the top of the FCS pool. Are these not the same exact actions on a differing scale?!

Who hired this man who possesses limited logical abilities?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I would add the following teams;
UNI
SDSU
UCA
Villanova
New Hampshire
Youngstown State
SFA

Just to name a few more.

Dewey

Yep. plenty of good football left.

[BisonFan02]

Its comforting to know that Game Southern's aspirations are to be an FBS patsy like Buffalo and play money games to float the program. Good luck gents.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You do realize the NCAA takes a large portion of what little revenue is earned by hosting, right? I remember Cobb saying we lost money in 2005 and I believe he said we made a small profit in 2007. Not sure about 2006.

He should talk to Montana State's AD, who made a small (but not insubstantial) profit two years ago.

[PhillyApp1]

Yes, more taxpayer money to go towards AD, coaching, and admin salaries.

Naannaa a booboo people get paid more for more responsibility...and better taxpayers money to GSU than to go to Obamacare ;-)

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Its comforting to know that Game Southern's aspirations are to be an FBS patsy like Buffalo and play money games to float the program. Good luck gents.

I'm not going to **** on them as they have us in the last few months but this is kind of it. I would be very much opposed to NDSU going FBS under the current system. There isn't a dime's worth of difference between the bottom of FBS and FCS.

[TheRevSFA]

Georgia Southern football, winner of an unprecedented six national championships at the FCS level,

Milk that for all it is worth. It no longer matters.

[Saint3333]

Thread #100 about this, how cute.

GSU is doing what they feel is best for their university as a whole, you don't have to agree or disagree, but that is reality for them.


Good luck to them, and good luck to those that remain in FCS. May one day you have the opportunity to make a decision to stay or go and you choose the best path for your university.

Both GSU and the FCS will be fine.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The reasons for reclassifying for Georgia Southern and App St. don't apply for everyone. The Montana's, Delaware, and NDSU should already be FBS, but they are in small population states and stand to gain little in terms of supporters and revenue.

In our region, Troy, Middle Tenn, Western Ky, Florida Int'l, UAB, Florida Atlantic, Central Florida, South Florida, South Alabama, Georgia State, and Charlotte have all started football programs and/or reclassified to FBS effectively "passing" Georgia Southern. Add Marshall, ODU, and App State to that mix and we end up in a conference with Wofford, Samford, VMI, Citadel, Kennesaw St., Mercer, etc.

I'm going to miss a lot of things about I-AA/FCS, but this is definitely the best move for our school.

Hey Rev! Tell me again how many NC's SFA has won? Ever? In 90 Years? 6 Conference Championships in 90 Years? Really?

[TheRevSFA]

The reasons for reclassifying for Georgia Southern and App St. don't apply for everyone. The Montana's, Delaware, and NDSU should already be FBS, but they are in small population states and stand to gain little in terms of supporters and revenue.

In our region, Troy, Middle Tenn, Western Ky, Florida Int'l, UAB, Florida Atlantic, Central Florida, South Florida, South Alabama, Georgia State, and Charlotte have all started football programs and/or reclassified to FBS effectively "passing" Georgia Southern. Add Marshall, ODU, and App State to that mix and we end up in a conference with Wofford, Samford, VMI, Citadel, Kennesaw St., Mercer, etc.

I'm going to miss a lot of things about I-AA/FCS, but this is definitely the best move for our school.

Hey Rev! Tell me again how many NC's SFA has won? Ever? In 90 Years? 6 Conference Championships in 90 Years? Really?

Hey Cliff, we aren't planning on moving up. After you do, your 6 NCs at a lower level won't matter. It will be just be a stat in the record book until someone else breaks it, and then it'll be referenced as trivia.

I do mean this sincerely, I wish Ga Southern and App State the best of luck in their new ventures into the SBC

[AmsterBison]

I'm not going to **** on them as they have us in the last few months but this is kind of it. I would be very much opposed to NDSU going FBS under the current system. There isn't a dime's worth of difference between the bottom of FBS and FCS.

Well, except that the top of the FCS wins a lot more games and, I don't know about other schools, but I'm not sure that many fanbases, spoiled by success, are going to be happy with a .500 program regardless of the shiny new label.

Of course, App State and Georgia Southern should rule the Sun Belt from day 1, but NDSU, for example, would most decidedly not rule the Mountain West.

[dewey]

Thread #100 about this, how cute.

GSU is doing what they feel is best for their university as a whole, you don't have to agree or disagree, but that is reality for them.


Good luck to them, and good luck to those that remain in FCS. May one day you have the opportunity to make a decision to stay or go and you choose the best path for your university.

Both GSU and the FCS will be fine.

GREAT post!!


I'm not going to **** on them as they have us in the last few months but this is kind of it. I would be very much opposed to NDSU going FBS under the current system. There isn't a dime's worth of difference between the bottom of FBS and FCS.

I would agree with this and I would strongly oppose a move to FBS for NDSU.

Dewey

[MplsBison]

"'Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football,' he said."

xlolx Two time national champ NDSU skunked! It's not like you team lost to them in the playoffs or anything... twice... xlolx

*insert obligatory comment that to get that $1.9 million in revenue you lose the revenue of playoff home games and increase your costs much more than $1.9 million per annum, which includes a nice pay raise for all athletics administrators, including Klenlein*

NDSU was included in the comment, hence the two or three more.

The NCAA takes the revenue from playoff games.

As proven, to compete in the Sun Belt does not require any higher of football budget than the top SoCon teams were already spending.


0 for 3 in one post. Pace yourself, LFN.

[MplsBison]

Exactly. Look at all the other bottom end FBS schools, they are losing money left and right. They spend $10 to make $9! All for the perception of more exposure for the school. xcrazyx

Exposure is one thing, at least being at the only table that matters in most people's minds is another thing.

[MplsBison]

I'm not sure "survival" is the issue here. A clear majority of the upward mobility has been by non-flagship directional schools seeking greater visibility at home and, let's be clear, the increased state aid which follows. If a school like Texas State (nee Southwest Texas State) is somehow perceived as "big time" (as opposed to institutional peers like SFA or Sam), will more state funding follow? Is Middle Mennessee more relevant statewide for being in I-A than being compared to UT-Martin?

By contrast, how many private schools have joined I-A in this matter?

An interesting, "outside the box" idea for moving to FBS, but ultimately seems like grasping at straws.

The people who control how much money each state institution gets in states like Tenn and Georgia don't care if the schools even have a football team. It's academic money and the big dogs eat first.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NDSU was included in the comment, hence the two or three more.

The NCAA takes the revenue from playoff games.

As proven, to compete in the Sun Belt does not require any hire of a budget than the top SoCon teams were already spending.


0 for 3 in one post. Pace yourself, LFN.

1. So the school that eliminated the Eagles from playoff contention was one of "two or three other schools". You'd think he knows them best of all. 1/1

2. The NCAA takes some revenue from playoff games, not all. 2/2

3. WKU spent $25 million on athletics in the Sun Belt in 2011. Expenses for the last 5 years (just by increasing football, since they were in the Sun Belt in all other sports before):

2007 (FBS Transitional): $19.957M
2008 (FBS) : $21M
2009: $23M
2010: $22M
2011: $25M

You can bet the Petrino hiring makes this a bigger line-item in the 2012 budget:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8732857/bobby-petrino-hired-head-coach-western-kentucky-hilltoppers


Western Kentucky gave Petrino a four-year deal with a base annual salary of $850,000. If he terminates the deal at any time, he must re-pay the university $1.2 million in six monthly payments starting the month after he leaves.

But for those scoring at home, that's a 25% increase in athletics spending across the board. For football. Minus Petrino. Minus whatever incentives are baked into his contract that aren't reported. 3/3

[Vitojr130]

There is one major problem with this AD's line of reasoning for jumping up to FBS. He suggests that the jump up to FBS will increase revenue by $600,000 per game, simply by moving up a division. However, with the increase in pay from other colleges comes an increase in pay to other colleges. Instead of paying $100,000 for teams to come to their place, GSU will now have to pay a ton more. Unless, of course, GSU plans on traveling for every single game.... which is not feasible..

[Lehigh'98]

xeyebrowx. Groundhog Day at AGS. All the best to GSU and App.

[Saint3333]

xeyebrowx. Groundhog Day at AGS. All the best to GSU and App.

You sir are the antithesis to LFN, thank you for restoring my faith in Lehigh.

[Bisonator]

Exposure is one thing, at least being at the only table that matters in most people's minds is another thing.

Is that the table with the scraps? xlolx

[walliver]

I suspect the decision to move was made well before Kleinlein was hired.

His job is just to push the party line.

The only reason any FCS team moves to FBS is the feeling that FBS makes the school more "prestigious". To some schools that is important, to others it isn't. Some schools feel that associating with UL-L, UL-M, Ark State is a good thing, some don't.

Sometimes I wish people would just say what they mean, and not come up with convoluted explanations. It is interesting that many of the schools upon which GaSo looks down, also look down on Georgia Southern.

I suspect GSU will be happy in the SunBelt. ASU will probably do well, but the SunBelt really isn't as good a fit for them from a geographic standpoint.

Those of us remaining in the SoCon will be happy also, so we all come out ahead.

[Saint3333]

This is chess not checkers. This move was a move to set up the next move when there is a bigger shake up. The current setup of conferences isn't going to be around more than 10 years.

[AppMan]

Will someone step in and replace ASU & GSU. Of course. Will the games be as exciting? Absolutely. Will the fans still come to Furman, Wofford, and the remaining SoCon teams? More than likely, but not as many twice a year. Will the SoCon and FCS survive without App & GSU? Not doubt. National champions will still be crowned and fans will enjoy the seasons. In a few years our programs will be an afterthought in the FCS world, reduced to history. The leadership at each school is doing what they think is best. They aspire to be in the top level of D-I. They want to grow the programs and see potential problems to do that by remaining in FCS. People say it's all about the money. Of course it is. Everything is about the money. Why is WCU playing at MTSU, Virginia Tech and at Auburn this year? Money. Why is NDSU playing Kansas State, Furman LSU or anybody else an FBS opponent? Money. Will FCS programs survive at their current level without these big money games? Doubtful. With the SOS factor now in play the remaining Power Five conferences will follow the Big Ten and stop playing FCS schools. The money games will dry up and FCS schools will turn to playing the Group of Five schools. They who won't pay anywhere close to the amount of the big boys. They know they don't have to. Loss of revenue will lead to tighter budgets and eventually reduced scholarships. That is something a majority of ASU & GSU fans won't accept. It's all about finding the level you want to play. Nobody needs to be bitter or hateful? Did other D-II schools ridicule Wofford , Elon or NDSU when they moved up? It is simply time to shake hands, recall the good times and walk away friends.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I suspect the decision to move was made well before Kleinlein was hired.

His job is just to push the party line.

The only reason any FCS team moves to FBS is the feeling that FBS makes the school more "prestigious". To some schools that is important, to others it isn't. Some schools feel that associating with UL-L, UL-M, Ark State is a good thing, some don't.

Sometimes I wish people would just say what they mean, and not come up with convoluted explanations. It is interesting that many of the schools upon which GaSo looks down, also look down on Georgia Southern.

I suspect GSU will be happy in the SunBelt. ASU will probably do well, but the SunBelt really isn't as good a fit for them from a geographic standpoint.

Those of us remaining in the SoCon will be happy also, so we all come out ahead.

I agree with what I think is the spirit of your post. Furman, Wofford, Samford, Mercer, Citadel, VMI should be jumping for joy that App and GSU are leaving.

No more rednecks or hillbillies disturbing wine & cheese Saturdays; no more conference games with more than 10K people at a time to deal with; and no more academic association with blue collar state schools

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Will someone step in and replace ASU & GSU. Of course. Will the games be as exciting? Absolutely. Will the fans still come to Furman, Wofford, and the remaining SoCon teams? More than likely, but not as many twice a year. Will the SoCon and FCS survive without App & GSU? Not doubt. National champions will still be crowned and fans will enjoy the seasons. In a few years our programs will be an afterthought in the FCS world, reduced to history. The leadership at each school is doing what they think is best. They aspire to be in the top level of D-I. They want to grow the programs and see potential problems to do that by remaining in FCS. People say it's all about the money. Of course it is. Everything is about the money. Why is WCU playing at MTSU, Virginia Tech and at Auburn this year? Money. Why is NDSU playing Kansas State, Furman LSU or anybody else an FBS opponent? Money. Will FCS programs survive at their current level without these big money games? Doubtful. With the SOS factor now in play the remaining Power Five conferences will follow the Big Ten and stop playing FCS schools. The money games will dry up and FCS schools will turn to playing the Group of Five schools. They who won't pay anywhere close to the amount of the big boys. They know they don't have to. Loss of revenue will lead to tighter budgets and eventually reduced scholarships. That is something a majority of ASU & GSU fans won't accept. It's all about finding the level you want to play. Nobody needs to be bitter or hateful? Did other D-II schools ridicule Wofford , Elon or NDSU when they moved up? It is simply time to shake hands, recall the good times and walk away friends.


NDSU is playing K-State because SOMEBODY had to challenge them this year.


amirite?

[BisonFan02]

Will someone step in and replace ASU & GSU. Of course. Will the games be as exciting? Absolutely. Will the fans still come to Furman, Wofford, and the remaining SoCon teams? More than likely, but not as many twice a year. Will the SoCon and FCS survive without App & GSU? Not doubt. National champions will still be crowned and fans will enjoy the seasons. In a few years our programs will be an afterthought in the FCS world, reduced to history. The leadership at each school is doing what they think is best. They aspire to be in the top level of D-I. They want to grow the programs and see potential problems to do that by remaining in FCS. People say it's all about the money. Of course it is. Everything is about the money. Why is WCU playing at MTSU, Virginia Tech and at Auburn this year? Money. Why is NDSU playing Kansas State, Furman LSU or anybody else an FBS opponent? Money. Will FCS programs survive at their current level without these big money games? Doubtful. With the SOS factor now in play the remaining Power Five conferences will follow the Big Ten and stop playing FCS schools. The money games will dry up and FCS schools will turn to playing the Group of Five schools. They who won't pay anywhere close to the amount of the big boys. They know they don't have to. Loss of revenue will lead to tighter budgets and eventually reduced scholarships. That is something a majority of ASU & GSU fans won't accept. It's all about finding the level you want to play. Nobody needs to be bitter or hateful? Did other D-II schools ridicule Wofford , Elon or NDSU when they moved up? It is simply time to shake hands, recall the good times and walk away friends.

NDSU plays "winnable" FBS games within their recruiting footprint. Also, there was PLENTY of bad talking and hate towards NDSU during the DII move up. I will avoid that impending thread derailment however.

[MplsBison]

1. So the school that eliminated the Eagles from playoff contention was one of "two or three other schools". You'd think he knows them best of all. 1/1

2. The NCAA takes some revenue from playoff games, not all. 2/2

3. WKU spent $25 million on athletics in the Sun Belt in 2011. Expenses for the last 5 years (just by increasing football, since they were in the Sun Belt in all other sports before):

2007 (FBS Transitional): $19.957M
2008 (FBS) : $21M
2009: $23M
2010: $22M
2011: $25M

You can bet the Petrino hiring makes this a bigger line-item in the 2012 budget:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8732857/bobby-petrino-hired-head-coach-western-kentucky-hilltoppers



But for those scoring at home, that's a 25% increase in athletics spending across the board. For football. Minus Petrino. Minus whatever incentives are baked into his contract that aren't reported. 3/3

1) NDSU was included in the comment. You implying that since they weren't mentioned by name means that they weren't mentioned at all, is misleading or outright dishonest. Given your M.O. on this board, I'll go with the latter.

2) the NCAA takes most of the revenue, the remainder isn't anything close to significant enough as to be meaningful in the way you implied it was.

3) As I've proven before, LA-Monroe was a bowl team and competed for the Sun Belt title last year while spending less on football than App State did in the SoCon.

Any new move-up may choose to spend more, that's their choice. But it's not required - as you implied it is.


0 for 3

[MplsBison]

Is that the table with the scraps? xlolx

The FBS table.

As I said, the only table that matters to most people. You can be willfully ignorant (like for example ursus does) of the fact that NDSU currently sits at a minor league table. That's your choice.

But I don't have to be satisfied.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The FBS table.

As I said, the only table that matters to most people. You can be willfully ignorant (like for example ursus does) of the fact that NDSU currently sits at a minor league table. That's your choice.

But I don't have to be satisfied.

Being willfully ignorant means I can stop if I wish to.

You don't have that option.

So even by your ignorant standard I'm still better off than you are. Sorry little man, that's the way it is.

[CrazyCat]

I found Coach Saban's comments about scheduling FCS schools interesting.



Moreover, Saban pushes back on the potential criticism by saying if college football wants to prevent FCS opponents, then it is time to redefine scheduling by re-classifying the five major conferences and ensuring such teams only play other teams within the five power conferences.
http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2013/saban-fcs-opponents/


I'm sure it's nothing to worry about for the new move uppers and lower FBS teams.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Personally, I hope NDSU does make the move to FBS.

Get those associate ADs out on the fundraiser trail and pound the pavement. There is FBS money out there for NDSU locally: Microsoft, RDO, Sanford, Bobcat and many other mid and small businesses that would contribute more. I would personally give more to Teammakers if there was a FBS move.

Expect a lot.....get a lot.....

[Bisonator]

The FBS table.

As I said, the only table that matters to most people. You can be willfully ignorant (like for example ursus does) of the fact that NDSU currently sits at a minor league table. That's your choice.

But I don't have to be satisfied.

Like I said the table with the scraps. That is all the big five conferences will allow.

I would support NDSU if they decided to move up but I don't see that happening in the near future.

Oh, and I'm certain they don't give a damn whether you're satisfied or not!

[AppMan]

NDSU is playing K-State because SOMEBODY had to challenge them this year.


amirite?

urwrong. They are playing for the $350K.

[cmaxwellgsu]

"'Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football,' he said."

xlolx Two time national champ NDSU skunked! It's not like you team lost to them in the playoffs or anything... twice... xlolx

*insert obligatory comment that to get that $1.9 million in revenue you lose the revenue of playoff home games and increase your costs much more than $1.9 million per annum, which includes a nice pay raise for all athletics administrators, including Klenlein*


No shocker that you were the first reply on this. Maybe I'd be obsessed with this topic too if my team played in a do nothing league like the Patriot. When you can be a game from perfect and still not be playoff worthy, you are basically irrelevant in your division. Our AD has realized there are basically no schools like us left in our conference, and there are very few like us in the whole FCS. The shift in the SoCon is a damn good indicator of where things are going, and our school made the right move for us. Maybe you can tell us again how you know so much more about our situation than we do....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

No shocker that you were the first reply on this. Maybe I'd be obsessed with this topic too if my team played in a do nothing league like the Patriot. When you can be a game from perfect and still not be playoff worthy, you are basically irrelevant in your division. Our AD has realized there are basically no schools like us left in our conference, and there are very few like us in the whole FCS. The shift in the SoCon is a damn good indicator of where things are going, and our school made the right move for us. Maybe you can tell us again how you know so much more about our situation than we do....

Now GSU will be a game away from perfection and play in the Beef O'Brady's Bowl against Temple. Maybe I'll buy the T-shirt....

* to my dismay there are no AAC vs SBC bowl tie-ins...

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I found Coach Saban's comments about scheduling FCS schools interesting.



http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2013/saban-fcs-opponents/


I'm sure it's nothing to worry about for the new move uppers and lower FBS teams.

This is exactly what is coming. I don't think the 5 power conferences will be able to completely segregate because the majority of schools in those conferences are at the same competitive level as the lower tier FBS and they need to play the weaker lower tier schools to get wins.

If FCS is currently the 2nd Tier of DI Football and Saban's dream comes true, then the Group of Five FBS become the (official) 2nd Tier and FCS is defacto 3rd Tier. Staying in the 2nd Tier is the goal for us.

[blueballs]

Evrrybody's situation is a little different and you try to position yourself with programs in a similar situation.

GSU's enrollment has quadrupled since Erk Russell first came to Statesboro. The current President- who frankly is a breath of fresh air from the last one- made a very compelling case for the move and you can't logically argue against it.

As a football fan though, I LOVE the playoffs and think they're the best thing in all of college football. I hate to be losing that but the bigger picture us what matters to the university.

[OL FU]

I find it funny that people get upset in these discussions. Part of it is because the people not moving are offended because a few fans of the moving up schools feel like they have to bash what they are leaving before they go and the move up fans are offended because a few fans of the stay where they are schools have to bash the move up group for wasting money and getting nothing out of it leaving the majority of us to hope for the best for each group. As I said, I will miss both schools. Liked their programs, liked their fans, loved beating them and absolutely hated losing to them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I find it funny that people get upset in these discussions. Part of it is because the people not moving are offended because a few fans of the moving up schools feel like they have to bash what they are leaving before they go and the move up fans are offended because a few fans of the stay where they are schools have to bash the move up group for wasting money and getting nothing out of it leaving the majority of us to hope for the best for each group. As I said, I will miss both schools. Liked their programs, liked their fans, loved beating them and absolutely hated losing to them.

Almost universally the AD who (at a minimum) pitches a move to FBS only makes mention of revenues. Yet when I mention that it involves skyrocketing costs that are not covered by the new revenues its called 'bashing the move up'. There's another place where inconvenient facts are shouted down. Its called China.

[Lehigh'98]

Almost universally the AD who (at a minimum) pitches a move to FBS only makes mention of revenues. Yet when I mention that it involves skyrocketing costs that are not covered by the new revenues its called 'bashing the move up'. There's another place where inconvenient facts are shouted down. Its called China.


So do you think GSU and App made the wrong move? What would you have done in their situation?

[Apphole]

So do you think GSU and App made the wrong move?


xlolx In short, yes. LFN spends 8 hours a day fighting his losing battle with reality. He has made a living on bad mouthing the FBS and trying his hardest to convince the world that App and GaSo made the wrong decision.

Bless his little heart.

[OL FU]

Almost universally the AD who (at a minimum) pitches a move to FBS only makes mention of revenues. Yet when I mention that it involves skyrocketing costs that are not covered by the new revenues its called 'bashing the move up'. There's another place where inconvenient facts are shouted down. Its called China.



I understand. My point wasn't rights or wrongs. Financial reasons to move are the easiest to explain, so, in my opinion, that is why ADs discuss it. The intangibles, such as alumni support, reputaton, exposure, fan support, association similar institutions, etc are harder to quantify, so ADs discuss the easy part even if the math might or might not work.

Point is still the same. Schools do what they believe is in their best interest. Sometimes it is right and sometimes it ain't.

[ThompsonThe]

"'Right now it’s (James Madison), Delaware, Montana and probably two or three other schools —that’s it in FCS football,' he said."

xlolx Two time national champ NDSU skunked! It's not like you team lost to them in the playoffs or anything... twice... xlolx

*insert obligatory comment that to get that $1.9 million in revenue you lose the revenue of playoff home games and increase your costs much more than $1.9 million per annum, which includes a nice pay raise for all athletics administrators, including Klenlein*

How much with competitive bidding does any school make off holding a playoff game? Very, very little. In fact imagine some schools have lost money on some of them. No comparison what-so-ever.

[ThompsonThe]

I find it funny that people get upset in these discussions. Part of it is because the people not moving are offended because a few fans of the moving up schools feel like they have to bash what they are leaving before they go and the move up fans are offended because a few fans of the stay where they are schools have to bash the move up group for wasting money and getting nothing out of it leaving the majority of us to hope for the best for each group. As I said, I will miss both schools. Liked their programs, liked their fans, loved beating them and absolutely hated losing to them.Truly believe that App State partially stayed in the SoCon instead of moving to what is now the FBS in the early '80's because of not leaving Furman. Our fans enjoyed trying to beat the Paladins so much it was a huge thing to them. Still is. Hate to leave FCS and not get the opportunity to even the series, only school I can think of that has us in that category except for one way out West which we hope to even things up with first game this year - Montana.

[PaladinFan]

Is it a good thing that the guy pulling the strings on the FBS move doesn't seem to know all that much about FCS football?

Like many, I don't disagree with much of what he says. It is a bit "holier than thou" to suggest that there are only four good teams left, and we're one of them.

[ThompsonThe]

Now GSU will be a game away from perfection and play in the Beef O'Brady's Bowl against Temple. Maybe I'll buy the T-shirt....

* to my dismay there are no AAC vs SBC bowl tie-ins...

That's true, no AAC -vs- SBC bowl tie-ins. Maybe the AAC knows better than to schedule one. What was the Sun Belt's record again C-USA last year? 7-2 maybe. Louisiana of the Sun Belt beat East Carolina, who is moving to the AAC, by what - 10 points in a bowl game. And the Sun Belt will be getting stronger now.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That's true, no AAC -vs- SBC bowl tie-ins. Maybe the AAC knows better than to schedule one. What was the Sun Belt's record again C-USA last year? 7-2 maybe. Louisiana of the Sun Belt beat East Carolina, who is moving to the AAC, by what - 10 points in a bowl game. And the Sun Belt will be getting stronger now.

Nope instead the AAC has tie ins with the ACC, Big 12 and SEC. Good luck playing the MAC and CUSA. I'll take my chances with Cincinnati, UConn, USF, Tulsa etc. Besides, football season just kills time until basketball xcoffeex

The SBC has two crappy bowl tie ins and is a one bid hoops league. The AAC will run circles around it....

[Apphole]

Nope instead the AAC has tie ins with the ACC, Big 12 and SEC. Good luck playing the MAC and CUSA. I'll take my chances with Cincinnati, UConn, USF, Tulsa etc. Besides, football season just kills time until basketball xcoffeex

The SBC has two crappy bowl tie ins and is a one bid hoops league. The AAC will run circles around it....

The Belt will have 4 bowl tie ins by the time App and Southern are bowl eligible. Granted, they're vs CUSA and MAC.

No one is arguing that the SBC is a better place to be than the AAC. The Belt is a much better place to be than the SoCon.

[DSUrocks07]

NDSU plays "winnable" FBS games within their recruiting footprint. Also, there was PLENTY of bad talking and hate towards NDSU during the DII move up. I will avoid that impending thread derailment however.

Every game is "winnable" in July :p

[BisonFan02]

Every game is "winnable" in July :p

6-3...hopefully 7-3 soon. :D

[dgtw]

I found Coach Saban's comments about scheduling FCS schools interesting.



http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2013/saban-fcs-opponents/


I'm sure it's nothing to worry about for the new move uppers and lower FBS teams.

Saban doesn't make policy, he was just giving his opinion and I didn't read it as favoring the issue one way or the other.

As an Alabama fan, I hate playing FCS teams because it doesn't make for a good game. As a Jax State fan, I like playing a big name for the money.

[ThompsonThe]

Nope instead the AAC has tie ins with the ACC, Big 12 and SEC. Good luck playing the MAC and CUSA. I'll take my chances with Cincinnati, UConn, USF, Tulsa etc. Besides, football season just kills time until basketball xcoffeex

The SBC has two crappy bowl tie ins and is a one bid hoops league. The AAC will run circles around it....

They can try.

[CrazyCat]

Saban doesn't make policy, he was just giving his opinion and I didn't read it as favoring the issue one way or the other.

As an Alabama fan, I hate playing FCS teams because it doesn't make for a good game. As a Jax State fan, I like playing a big name for the money.

Sure. I'm not for or opposed to GSU and ASU moving up. They had the opportunity and took it. I posted the quote because some of the hard core move uppers keep saying that the Big 5 will stop scheduling FCS which will begin the demise of FCS. What if the Big 5 only play themselves, like Saban suggested? That would put a serious hurt on the bottom half of FBS.

[lionsrking2]

Sure. I'm not for or opposed to GSU and ASU moving up. They had the opportunity and took it. I posted the quote because some of the hard core move uppers keep saying that the Big 5 will stop scheduling FCS which will begin the demise of FCS. What if the Big 5 only play themselves, like Saban suggested? That would put a serious hurt on the bottom half of FBS.

The way I took his comments, he was defending the right to play FCS schools just as much, if not more so, than suggesting the big 5 discontinue. He understands the business aspect and the difficulties not allowing FCS games would impose on some programs as far as scheduling and balancing of budgets. Whether FBS fans want it or not, scheduling FCS games will continue to be allowed for the foreseeable future.

[walliver]

I found Coach Saban's comments about scheduling FCS schools interesting.



http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2013/saban-fcs-opponents/


I'm sure it's nothing to worry about for the new move uppers and lower FBS teams.


Saban hit the nail on the head.

If strength of schedule is really going to be important, then any game against a FCS, AAC, CUSA, MAC, SBC, or non-Boise-MWC team hurts SOS.

[MplsBison]

Being willfully ignorant means I can stop if I wish to.

You don't have that option.

So even by your ignorant standard I'm still better off than you are. Sorry little man, that's the way it is.

It has nothing to do with being better than anyone else. I didn't say anything along those lines anyway. You have a chip on your shoulder, for some reason.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. They're what make internet message boards go 'round.


It's just that some opinions are wrong and some are correct. Mine are often correct.

[MplsBison]

I found Coach Saban's comments about scheduling FCS schools interesting.



http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2013/saban-fcs-opponents/



I'm sure it's nothing to worry about for the new move uppers and lower FBS teams.

His quote does not back your implication in the slightest.

His quote is trying to make it out purely as a logistics problem. "Oh, well we would love to schedule only elite five conference teams in our non-conference schedule...but we can't get them to schedule us!" Therefore, the only way it would be logistically possible for that to happen would be if a hard and fast rule was created requiring it to happen. That rule then would preclude non-conference games against the lower five FBS conference teams for the sake of forcing only elite five vs. elite five non-conference games.

It really has nothing to do with the FCS vs. lower five FBS argument.


The real reason that Saben wants FCS teams is that they're guaranteed wins for cheap. They might not count the same in the BCS formula and they certainly won't count the same in the selection committee's minds - but they go down as wins, they don't cost as much and they bring in all the same revenue as any other home game. The SEC wins are what get the SEC champion into the national champion game anyway. They don't need signature wins non-conference, they just need to go 4-0 against the non-conference schedule.

[MplsBison]

Like I said the table with the scraps. That is all the big five conferences will allow.

I would support NDSU if they decided to move up but I don't see that happening in the near future.

Oh, and I'm certain they don't give a damn whether you're satisfied or not!

Of course they care if alumni and fans are satisfied, just like any good business cares if its customers are satisfied.


If you consider a fifth of $500/million per year to be scraps, so be it. You just have a nonsensical definition of scraps, I guess.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It has nothing to do with being better than anyone else. I didn't say anything along those lines anyway. You have a chip on your shoulder, for some reason.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. They're what make internet message boards go 'round.


It's just that some opinions are wrong and some are correct. Mine are often incorrect.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lli8gvHxIu1qia0dso1_500.gif

[MplsBison]

Let the record show that ursus dishonestly modified the quote. You can review the actual post #69 to see for yourself.

An experienced message board admin would not allow quotes to be modified in the first place. xcoffeex

[BisonFan02]

Let the record show that ursus dishonestly modified the quote. You can review the actual post #69 to see for yourself.

An experienced message board admin would not allow quotes to be modified in the first place. xcoffeex

http://makemusicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/smug.JPG.jpeg

[MplsBison]

Yes, it was. *shrug*

I can't stand quote splicing/cutting. If you're going to quote someone in your post, you should have to exactly quote what they said - typos, misspellings, etc. and all. The only exception would be for not having to needlessly repost embedded media.

[CrazyCat]

His quote does not back your implication in the slightest.

His quote is trying to make it out purely as a logistics problem. "Oh, well we would love to schedule only elite five conference teams in our non-conference schedule...but we can't get them to schedule us!" Therefore, the only way it would be logistically possible for that to happen would be if a hard and fast rule was created requiring it to happen. That rule then would preclude non-conference games against the lower five FBS conference teams for the sake of forcing only elite five vs. elite five non-conference games.

It really has nothing to do with the FCS vs. lower five FBS argument.


The real reason that Saben wants FCS teams is that they're guaranteed wins for cheap. They might not count the same in the BCS formula and they certainly won't count the same in the selection committee's minds - but they go down as wins, they don't cost as much and they bring in all the same revenue as any other home game. The SEC wins are what get the SEC champion into the national champion game anyway. They don't need signature wins non-conference, they just need to go 4-0 against the non-conference schedule.

Sure it does. Did you talk to Saban personally to "know" what he really meant ? That's what I thought.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Let the record show that I am dishonest. You can review the actual post #70 to see for yourself.

ursus, as an experienced message board admin should probably not allow me to post one wit of my meandering illogical crap in the first place. xcoffeex

Good post.xthumbsupx

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

Almost universally the AD who (at a minimum) pitches a move to FBS only makes mention of revenues. Yet when I mention that it involves skyrocketing costs that are not covered by the new revenues its called 'bashing the move up'. There's another place where inconvenient facts are shouted down. Its called China.

Have to say App is doing a pretty good job of addressing the expense issues and it will only get better with increased game guarantees from being a FBS program. We were going to receive $750,000 from Michigan in 2014, but as a FBS program that figure is now $1 Million. Appalachian generated a record $4.3 million in private support during the 2012-13 fiscal year revenues with the Yosef Club surpassing the $3 million mark for the first time. TYC had a single month record of $603,300 in donations in April, the first full month after Appalachian joined the Sun Belt.

[Green26]

$1.9 million for 3 away games? I realize that each school, and Geo So and Montana, are in different situations. But consider what UM gets for out-of-conference home games.

First, Geo So will have travel and other expenses for 3 away games. So, the $1.9 million gross number will be smaller by at least several hundred thousand dollars.

UM has more than 20,000 "revenue" tickets per game, maybe even 21,000. 20,000 times $35 per ticket is $700,000. 20,000 times $55 per ticket is $1.1 million. $55 is the price for homecoming, MSU Bobcat and big games like App St. In addition, there is revenue from concessions, parking, Griz ware, stadium club booze/food, etc. Minus home game expenses, of course.

And the local Missoula economy gets a huge bump with all of the people driving in for the game, eating and drinking, staying motels, etc. While there haven't been studies done, people have speculated that a home game is a multi-million impact on the Missoula economy.

And obviously home games can be attended in person and are huge fun, both at the stadium, around it, and in the bars and restaurants.

Good luck, Geo So. Hope you "survive" with your away-game FBS games.

[lionsrking2]

Appalachian generated a record $4.3 million in private support during the 2012-13 fiscal year revenues with the Yosef Club surpassing the $3 million mark for the first time. TYC had a single month record of $603,300 in donations in April, the first full month after Appalachian joined the Sun Belt.

Question is, will that level of giving be sustainable, especially if you hit a rough stretch during the transition to FBS? All it takes are a couple of down years to close some pocket books.

[Vitojr130]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lli8gvHxIu1qia0dso1_500.gif

Don't encourage him. The annoying oranges creator is a Fargoan.

[seantaylor]

$1.9 million for 3 away games? I realize that each school, and Geo So and Montana, are in different situations. But consider what UM gets for out-of-conference home games.

First, Geo So will have travel and other expenses for 3 away games. So, the $1.9 million gross number will be smaller by at least several hundred thousand dollars.

UM has more than 20,000 "revenue" tickets per game, maybe even 21,000. 20,000 times $35 per ticket is $700,000. 20,000 times $55 per ticket is $1.1 million. $55 is the price for homecoming, MSU Bobcat and big games like App St. In addition, there is revenue from concessions, parking, Griz ware, stadium club booze/food, etc. Minus home game expenses, of course.

And the local Missoula economy gets a huge bump with all of the people driving in for the game, eating and drinking, staying motels, etc. While there haven't been studies done, people have speculated that a home game is a multi-million impact on the Missoula economy.

And obviously home games can be attended in person and are huge fun, both at the stadium, around it, and in the bars and restaurants.

Good luck, Geo So. Hope you "survive" with your away-game FBS games.

We were getting $200K a pop for these games in the Sammy Baker era. GSU makes basically the same amount on home games as Montana, so not sure what that has to do with anything.

[dgtw]

Why do FBS teams get more money for the "buy" games than FCS teams do?

[Saint3333]

Only one FCS game counts as a bowl quality win for now. That means they can only play one a year, simple supply/demand equation.

[OL FU]

On the money issue, I know finances count but I would think most schools that move up are fully prepared to take a financial hit. If football finances alone were the only consideration for playing football and in which conference you played, most FCS schools would dump football now.

[Saint3333]

All but about 30 schools would drop athletics if the goal was a profit.

[PaladinFan]

On the money issue, I know finances count but I would think most schools that move up are fully prepared to take a financial hit. If football finances alone were the only consideration for playing football and in which conference you played, most FCS schools would dump football now.

I agree. All of these transitioning schools know what the budget is going to look like.

Still, there is a difference between budgeting to buy a car and seeing what the balance looks like pro forma, and then quite another when that money is actually coming out every month. You can be prepared for the first, but the second is actually a reality. No one is completely prepared for a chance. You can be as ready as you can be, but there's always going to be a "woah" moment when those figures go from hypothetical to real.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I agree. All of these transitioning schools know what the budget is going to look like.

Still, there is a difference between budgeting to buy a car and seeing what the balance looks like pro forma, and then quite another when that money is actually coming out every month. You can be prepared for the first, but the second is actually a reality. No one is completely prepared for a chance. You can be as ready as you can be, but there's always going to be a "woah" moment when those figures go from hypothetical to real.

I know everyone is talking about this from a football perspective but what about basketball and the other sports?

[FormerPokeCenter]

Some schools feel that associating with UL-L, UL-M, Ark State is a good thing, some don't.

ULM and Arkansas State good schools with reasonable fanbases. However, associating with USL, ( excuse me, UL-L ) should be called what it is...."slumming"...

It's hard for some of us to get excited about the Slum Belch conference because..well...the head-to-head records with FCS schools speak for themselves....

I, for one, am going to be incredibly disappointed if App State and Georgia Southern down effing mop the floor with that conference from the get-go...If they don't dominate from the opening whistle in that conference, I'll voluntarily start rooting for Georgia State...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

ULM and Arkansas State good schools with reasonable fanbases. However, associating with USL, ( excuse me, UL-L ) should be called what it is...."slumming"...

It's hard for some of us to get excited about the Slum Belch conference because..well...the head-to-head records with FCS schools speak for themselves....

I, for one, am going to be incredibly disappointed if App State and Georgia Southern down effing mop the floor with that conference from the get-go...If they don't dominate from the opening whistle in that conference, I'll voluntarily start rooting for Georgia State...

I'll be shocked if they do. Marshall was the only one to make the jump and enjoy immediate success. Neither GSU or App State has the talent those Herd teams did.

[Apphole]

ULM and Arkansas State good schools with reasonable fanbases. However, associating with USL, ( excuse me, UL-L ) should be called what it is...."slumming"...

It's hard for some of us to get excited about the Slum Belch conference because..well...the head-to-head records with FCS schools speak for themselves....

I, for one, am going to be incredibly disappointed if App State and Georgia Southern down effing mop the floor with that conference from the get-go...If they don't dominate from the opening whistle in that conference, I'll voluntarily start rooting for Georgia State...

The times they are a changin'. You have a very outdated perception of the Belt.

[PaladinFan]

The times they are a changin'. You have a very outdated perception of the Belt.

It is perceived to be the lowest level of FBS football. It is hard to argue otherwise.

As I've said all along, GSU and App State care little about the Sun Belt's perception. They care about being in the FBS. They know well what the reputation of the conference is. If that mattered, they'd still be in the SoCon. The reputation is what the reputation is. Lot of schools transitioning out, generally smallest attendance, continuously morphing footprint, few rivalries, and little TV time. It is what it is.

[HappyAppy]

It is perceived to be the lowest level of FBS football. It is hard to argue otherwise.

As I've said all along, GSU and App State care little about the Sun Belt's perception. They care about being in the FBS. They know well what the reputation of the conference is. If that mattered, they'd still be in the SoCon. The reputation is what the reputation is. Lot of schools transitioning out, generally smallest attendance, continuously morphing footprint, few rivalries, and little TV time. It is what it is.

Yup, it is what it is... An upgrade over our previous conference in every way.

This board likes to harp on the idea that its the lowest FBS conference. Maybe it is. The lowest level of tier 1 is still an upgrade over the highest level of tier 2.

Lots of schools transitioning out? Generally smallest attendance? Little TV time? I can't believe we would want to go to the Sun Belt, the SoCon has none of those issues

[Saint3333]

The Socon isn't the best conference at the FCS level. It may be though to stay in the top three.

[Apphole]

It is perceived to be the lowest level of FBS football. It is hard to argue otherwise.

As I've said all along, GSU and App State care little about the Sun Belt's perception. They care about being in the FBS. They know well what the reputation of the conference is. If that mattered, they'd still be in the SoCon. The reputation is what the reputation is. Lot of schools transitioning out, generally smallest attendance, continuously morphing footprint, few rivalries, and little TV time. It is what it is.
Perceived? Maybe. Actually the lowest FBS football league? Negative. It's actually very easy to argue otherwise, as bowl results and head to head matchups over the past few years say otherwise.


And like the last two posts said, even the lowest tier FBS conference is a major upgrade from the SoCon.

[Green26]

We were getting $200K a pop for these games in the Sammy Baker era. GSU makes basically the same amount on home games as Montana, so not sure what that has to do with anything.

Maybe you should ask the Geo So AD why he's so excited $1.9 million of revenue for 3 road games against FBS opponents, if Geo So could make the same money by playing at home in FCS. Please explain why the AD thinks $1.9 million for these 3 games is a big deal.

[PaladinFan]

A typical response. A critique of the SunBelt must illicit a critique of the SoCon.

It is a complete nonstarter to support an argument like "well, the SunBelt is better than you think," with "well, the SoCon sucks." App and GSU wanted to move. They wanted anyone to take them. If the MAC came calling, you'd be singing the MAC's praises. If it was some other conference, same story. If they'd managed to be independent, we'd hear all about how great it was to be an FBS Independent.

App State and GSU don't care what conference they are in, so this feigned offense at the suggestion that the SunBelt has been slighted in the national conversation is nonsensical. You don't care about the SunBelt. You care about the FBS.

[Green26]

xlolx In short, yes. LFN spends 8 hours a day fighting his losing battle with reality. He has made a living on bad mouthing the FBS and trying his hardest to convince the world that App and GaSo made the wrong decision.

Bless his little heart.

LFN is one of the best and most knowledgeable posters on any of the FCS message boards. He takes the time to do research and provide good information for all of us.

Many people have questioned the move up of these two teams, including the commissioner of the Big Sky conference.

I for one will continue to get my information from knowledgeable people LFN and the Big Sky commissioner.

[seantaylor]

Maybe you should ask the Geo So AD why he's so excited $1.9 million of revenue for 3 road games against FBS opponents, if Geo So could make the same money by playing at home in FCS. Please explain why the AD thinks $1.9 million for these 3 games is a big deal.

Because we are getting paid to go on the road. Which, all teams have to. That said, if we scheduled a game with UAB or Southern Miss or the like, we would get basically nothing, because most of those games will be home and home.

[344Johnson]

I'm sure it makes sense for GSU. A lot of folks seem to believe that the top conferences of FCS and the lower FBS schools will end up in the same batch of football anyway.

Easy to be a fan of a major state school when we really don't have to gain exposure in our state. Tough for us to judge schools in situations that are not remotely similar to our own. We are the UGA of our state....or the North Carolina of our state of App folks.

[Vitojr130]

Yup, it is what it is... An upgrade over our previous conference in every way.

This board likes to harp on the idea that its the lowest FBS conference. Maybe it is. The lowest level of tier 1 is still an upgrade over the highest level of tier 2.

Lots of schools transitioning out? Generally smallest attendance? Little TV time? I can't believe we would want to go to the Sun Belt, the SoCon has none of those issues

My butthurt sensors are off the charts.

GSU and ASU went to the SunBelt, which is essentially the NEC of the FBS. It's murky waters arguing that the bottomfeeders of the FBS are better than the power stars of the FCS. The only thing good about being in the SunBelt is that it'll be better once you finally get out of it. In other words, it's a stepping stone into the parts of the FBS that actually matters...

[PaladinFan]

I'm sure it makes sense for GSU. A lot of folks seem to believe that the top conferences of FCS and the lower FBS schools will end up in the same batch of football anyway.

Easy to be a fan of a major state school when we really don't have to gain exposure in our state. Tough for us to judge schools in situations that are not remotely similar to our own. We are the UGA of our state....or the North Carolina of our state of App folks.

It's a valid point. NDSU is the biggest football program in North Dakota. GSU is the third biggest in Georgia. App State is probably the sixth or seventh in North Carolina.

NDSU, also, does not have a "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. They are the Jones.

[blueballs]

It's a valid point. NDSU is the biggest football program in North Dakota. GSU is the third biggest in Georgia. App State is probably the sixth or seventh in North Carolina.

NDSU, also, does not have a "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality. They are the Jones.

I would argue that GSU, for all practical purposes, isn't the 3rd program in GA.... IMO Auburn, GSU, Alabama and maybe even UF Al have more interest and support in state.

[HappyAppy]

My butthurt sensors are off the charts.

GSU and ASU went to the SunBelt, which is essentially the NEC of the FBS. It's murky waters arguing that the bottomfeeders of the FBS are better than the power stars of the FCS. The only thing good about being in the SunBelt is that it'll be better once you finally get out of it. In other words, it's a stepping stone into the parts of the FBS that actually matters...

It's actually not murky waters. The Sun Belt is an upgrade in every way.

Again, your answer to put down the Sun Belt is to compare it to the rest of the FBS or the "power stars of the FCS" (as opposed to comparing it to what we are actually leaving). If you were to take the "power stars" of the FBS and combine them into one conference, it might be somewhere in the same neighborhood of the Sun Belt conference.

If you just compare the Sun Belt to the SoCon, it's not close.

The level of football is higher. Arkansas State, ULL, Troy, ULM will be better any given year then what is left in the SoCon. Plus you are taking the two undisputed kings of SoCon football (and two of the best FCS programs) and adding them to the mix.

Fan support and exposure will be better. There will be 6 sun belt teams averaging 20,000 fans or more. There might be 1 school in the SoCon over 10,000. TV time will be better if we get 1 TV game a year.

Expenses will be higher but the payout will be higher and exposure will be better. Donations to the school have already broken records.

We will be playing a better level of football with more people watching and be getting paid more to do it. What am I missing here?

[OL FU]

I agree. All of these transitioning schools know what the budget is going to look like.

Still, there is a difference between budgeting to buy a car and seeing what the balance looks like pro forma, and then quite another when that money is actually coming out every month. You can be prepared for the first, but the second is actually a reality. No one is completely prepared for a chance. You can be as ready as you can be, but there's always going to be a "woah" moment when those figures go from hypothetical to real.

I have no experience with how ADs think, but if you are right, then they are idiots. I would not be surprised to find that their are some out there, but I doubt most are and most probably have a very good idea of what their exposure is.

[Apphole]

A typical response. A critique of the SunBelt must illicit a critique of the SoCon.

It is a complete nonstarter to support an argument like "well, the SunBelt is better than you think," with "well, the SoCon sucks." App and GSU wanted to move. They wanted anyone to take them. If the MAC came calling, you'd be singing the MAC's praises. If it was some other conference, same story. If they'd managed to be independent, we'd hear all about how great it was to be an FBS Independent.

App State and GSU don't care what conference they are in, so this feigned offense at the suggestion that the SunBelt has been slighted in the national conversation is nonsensical. You don't care about the SunBelt. You care about the FBS.

Another hypocritical FCS moral high groundest. One of you bad mouths the Sun Belt with a long outdated list of shots at the conference and irrelevant comparisons to the SEC, we try and explain that it isn't 2008 anymore, the Belt is outperforming other FBS leagues in football and offers many more tangible advantages than our previous league. Finally, we're labeled as ass holes for "bad mouthing" the FCS on our way out the door.

Conference realignment discussions on this forum are a joke. How exhausting.

[Apphole]

LFN is one of the best and most knowledgeable posters on any of the FCS message boards. He takes the time to do research and provide good information for all of us.

Many people have questioned the move up of these two teams, including the commissioner of the Big Sky conference.

I for one will continue to get my information from knowledgeable people LFN and the Big Sky commissioner.

xlolx

[Saint3333]

LFN is one of the best and most knowledgeable posters on any of the FCS message boards. He takes the time to do research and provide good information for all of us.

Many people have questioned the move up of these two teams, including the commissioner of the Big Sky conference.

I for one will continue to get my information from knowledgeable people LFN and the Big Sky commissioner.

I can't tell if you are serious. LFN is very knowledgable about one side of the debate and chooses to ignore the other side at every turn. Listening to him is like trying to determine if Obama is making the right decisions and only watching Fox News.

[ASUMountaineer]

No shocker that you were the first reply on this. Maybe I'd be obsessed with this topic too if my team played in a do nothing league like the Patriot. When you can be a game from perfect and still not be playoff worthy, you are basically irrelevant in your division. Our AD has realized there are basically no schools like us left in our conference, and there are very few like us in the whole FCS. The shift in the SoCon is a damn good indicator of where things are going, and our school made the right move for us. Maybe you can tell us again how you know so much more about our situation than we do....

He'll never answer. I've asked him this question for months--he has yet to answer.

[ASUMountaineer]

Is that the table with the scraps? xlolx

Yes, but at least we're not waiting on those scraps to fall.





See, it's easy for two to play this game.

[ASUMountaineer]

LFN is one of the best and most knowledgeable posters on any of the FCS message boards. He takes the time to do research and provide good information for all of us.

Many people have questioned the move up of these two teams, including the commissioner of the Big Sky conference.

I for one will continue to get my information from knowledgeable people LFN and the Big Sky commissioner.

xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx oh, you're serious... xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can't tell if you are serious. LFN is very knowledgable about one side of the debate and chooses to ignore the other side at every turn. Listening to him is like trying to determine if Obama is making the right decisions and only watching Fox News.

GSU's AD makes a GSU-fan-feel-good statement about a whopping $1.9 million or revenues while completely ignoring everything else. Who's Fox News here in this scenario, and who's trying to bring real facts into the debate?

The ASU/GSU "debate" on this issue is one side arguing the opinion that the Sun Belt is the best conference decision in the history of the school, while the other, "fair and balanced" side of the debate involving also bringing up the opinion that FCS sucks and ASU and GSU have outgrown the SoCon. Perhaps an outside opinion, like the opinion that the decision was only the best decision the schools have made this decade, not century, enters the discussion.

No matter what planet you guys live on, the fact remains that costs will rise, all that $1.9 million will be spent many times over, and the ADs are all getting a pay raise. There is no debate.

[PaladinFan]

I would argue that GSU, for all practical purposes, isn't the 3rd program in GA.... IMO Auburn, GSU, Alabama and maybe even UF Al have more interest and support in state.

Oh geeze, if you want to look out of state then I would undoubtedly say that FSU, Auburn, Alabama, and Florida have a bigger presence in state than GSU. My comments were directed really at the question of size of the football program in the state.

There is just a difference between schools like UMass, Montana, Delaware, and North Dakota State. They are the football team in that state. That is not the case for GSU and App.

[walliver]

I have no experience with how ADs think, but if you are right, then they are idiots. I would not be surprised to find that their are some out there, but I doubt most are and most probably have a very good idea of what their exposure is.

I don't think the AD's really call the shots. In these matters, they advise the administration and then do as they are told.

I believe the AD's at GSU and ASU have a good idea of the expenses of a basic FBS move.

That being said, I doubt that either fanbase would be happy with a middle-of-the-pack Sunbelt performance. To move up the ladder requires more money. Higher coaches salaries. Higher salaries to existing coaches to keep them from leaving and/or higher salaries to bring in more experienced coaches. Larger recruiting budgets. Larger and bigger and newer facilities to keep up with the others. What if the ESPN endless flow of money bubble bursts?

Both schools may be successful as long as expectations and budgets are kept at reasonable levels. There is opportunity and there is risk, just like everything else in life. Both schools are moving on, there is no reason for any of us to act like crazy ex-girlfriend stalkers trying to win them back, nor is there any reason for the departing to bring around the new girlfriends just to piss people off.

In just 5 weeks we can start talking about football again.

[eaglewraith]

Maybe you should ask the Geo So AD why he's so excited $1.9 million of revenue for 3 road games against FBS opponents, if Geo So could make the same money by playing at home in FCS. Please explain why the AD thinks $1.9 million for these 3 games is a big deal.

You are in a unique situation that is completely unlike what we're facing. You cannot compare your revenue to ours, as there are a lot of external factors that Montana doesn't deal with.

[ASUMountaineer]

I don't think the AD's really call the shots. In these matters, they advise the administration and then do as they are told.

I believe the AD's at GSU and ASU have a good idea of the expenses of a basic FBS move.

That being said, I doubt that either fanbase would be happy with a middle-of-the-pack Sunbelt performance. To move up the ladder requires more money. Higher coaches salaries. Higher salaries to existing coaches to keep them from leaving and/or higher salaries to bring in more experienced coaches. Larger recruiting budgets. Larger and bigger and newer facilities to keep up with the others. What if the ESPN endless flow of money bubble bursts?

Both schools may be successful as long as expectations and budgets are kept at reasonable levels. There is opportunity and there is risk, just like everything else in life. Both schools are moving on, there is no reason for any of us to act like crazy ex-girlfriend stalkers trying to win them back, nor is there any reason for the departing to bring around the new girlfriends just to piss people off.

In just 5 weeks we can start talking about football again.

Amen!

[ASUMountaineer]

GSU's AD makes a GSU-fan-feel-good statement about a whopping $1.9 million or revenues while completely ignoring everything else. Who's Fox News here in this scenario, and who's trying to bring real facts into the debate?

The ASU/GSU "debate" on this issue is one side arguing the opinion that the Sun Belt is the best conference decision in the history of the school, while the other, "fair and balanced" side of the debate involving also bringing up the opinion that FCS sucks and ASU and GSU have outgrown the SoCon. Perhaps an outside opinion, like the opinion that the decision was only the best decision the schools have made this decade, not century, enters the discussion.

No matter what planet you guys live on, the fact remains that costs will rise, all that $1.9 million will be spent many times over, and the ADs are all getting a pay raise. There is no debate.

Still waiting for you to tell any of us how it is that you know so much more about what is in App State and GSU's best interest more than their administrations and BOT's. I'm shocked that they didn't consult with you before making such a poor decision. xsmhx

[PaladinFan]

Still waiting for you to tell any of us how it is that you know so much more about what is in App State and GSU's best interest more than their administrations and BOT's. I'm shocked that they didn't consult with you before making such a poor decision. xsmhx

Nobody knows the answer to that. Those two institutions are doing what they believe is in their best interest. Time will tell whether it ends up the right decision. For some schools, the move has been profitable. For others, it has not.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nobody knows the answer to that. Those two institutions are doing what they believe is in their best interest. Time will tell whether it ends up the right decision. For some schools, the move has been "profitable". For others, it has not.

I fixed this for you because it depends on what your definition of "profitable" is. Boise State you could argue has "profited" through their moves because many, many more people casually know of the schools' existence thanks to football. But they are not profitable, i.e. if you dried up all their institutional support via state and local taxes they would still be running a severe deficit.

In the entire history of FCS, some of schools who have moved to FBS have been "profitable", but none have been profitable. This includes the poster children of "profitability" in Boise State and UConn.

[Saint3333]

Yep AD's are painting this is the best light possible and bringing up the good points on a move that has occured and is the path they are headed down, shocking I know. They are very biased as are you, no argument from me there.

LFN this is really simple. Revenues will rise, costs will rise, we don't know by how much yet. What I do know is App and GSU athletics overall lost money in 2012 and they will lose money in 2014 as well.

We both will be in a conference that is statistically better in football, baseball, and basketball on the field and the court and gets more exposure. We may perform poorly, we may rise. Uncertainty makes life interesting, and challenges force us to grow.

I said this earlier. The SoCon is a great conference, very glad to have been part of it for 30 years. I've enjoyed it. This decision however is in our leaders' opinion (and the majority of the fanbase) an opportunity that we should take at this point for our university.

Nothing you say is going to change the course we are on. Yes it is a risk, but many things in life are. You don't have to agree with it, but it is time to accept it and move on.

[catbob]

Just remember that being the only football team in the state doesn't guarantee success. See Wyoming. But even they go bowling every few years it seems.

It really depends what you want to be. Big fish, little pond (shrinking pond). Or small fish expanding pond.

[TheRevSFA]

App and GSU fans..please don't buy into the hype and refer to Louisiana-Lafayette as Louisiana.

Please please don't...

[Apphole]

App and GSU fans..please don't buy into the hype and refer to Louisiana-Lafayette as Louisiana.

Please please don't...

I won't if you won't refer to UNC Charlotte as Charlotte.

[ASUMountaineer]

Nobody knows the answer to that. Those two institutions are doing what they believe is in their best interest. Time will tell whether it ends up the right decision. For some schools, the move has been profitable. For others, it has not.

I didn't say anyone did. However, LFN has stated that he does know...he just won't say how he knows. He's quick to talk a big game, but refuses to answer the question when called on his BS.

[UNDBIZ]

For the most part these moves are purely to satisfy the egos of the university's AD and President. Hopefully it works out for Georgia Southern as they were a great FCS program, but IMO most universities making the move will fall into obscurity.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Just remember that being the only football team in the state doesn't guarantee success. See Wyoming. But even they go bowling every few years it seems.

It really depends what you want to be. Big fish, little pond (shrinking pond). Or small fish expanding pond.

I understand why everyone is talking about football (football board) but there's more to it. The SBC isn't really stellar in anything, at least to my knowledge. Maybe baseball? They might have a good team every now and again but none of there teams really compete on a national level. The AAC, MWC and even the MAC have multiple teams that do just that. If GSU and App State are forced to stay in a league like the SBC their athletic programs as a whole are going nowhere.

[Saint3333]

The Sun Belt is without a doubt one of the bottom three conferences at the FBS level, a mid-major basketball program (15th-20th best conference out of 32) each year, and a top 5-10 conference for baseball each year.

You are correct they aren't stellar at anything, but all three rankings are higher than the SoCon.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The Sun Belt is without a doubt one of the bottom three conferences at the FBS level, a mid-major basketball program (15th-20th best conference out of 32) each year, and a top 5-10 conference for baseball each year.

You are correct they aren't stellar at anything, but all three rankings are higher than the SoCon.

It's more like the Big 5, Middle Two (MWC, AAC) Somewhere in between (MAC) and bottom 2 ( CUSA, SBC). The MWC and AAC have more in common with the Big 5 than they do with CUSA and SBC when you factor in all sports.

[slycat]

Nope instead the AAC has tie ins with the ACC, Big 12 and SEC. Good luck playing the MAC and CUSA. I'll take my chances with Cincinnati, UConn, USF, Tulsa etc. Besides, football season just kills time until basketball xcoffeex

The SBC has two crappy bowl tie ins and is a one bid hoops league. The AAC will run circles around it....

It appears the NOLA bowl will most likely be changed to be AAC vs Sun Belt in the future.

[slycat]

Heres a question for everyone. If the big 5 do breakaway and form a new D1 tier, would FCS teams then want to move to the second teir if it meant more scholarships and a playoff?

[Sader87]

Heres a question for everyone. If the big 5 do breakaway and form a new D1 tier, would FCS teams then want to move to the second teir if it meant more scholarships and a playoff?

I really don't think there will be a "2nd tier." There's really no $$$ to be made (and a LOT to lose) at that level (if it came to exist).

[WUTNDITWAA]

For the most part these moves are purely to satisfy the egos of the university's AD and President. Hopefully it works out for North Dakota as they were a great Division II program, but IMO most universities making the move will fall into obscurity.

FIFY

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Heres a question for everyone. If the big 5 do breakaway and form a new D1 tier, would FCS teams then want to move to the second teir if it meant more scholarships and a playoff?

There would be no "move". There would be the new D-I tier and everyone else. The Sun Belt, MAC, C-USA and maybe the AAC would be integrated into the FCS' structure.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Heres a question for everyone. If the big 5 do breakaway and form a new D1 tier, would FCS teams then want to move to the second teir if it meant more scholarships and a playoff?

I've always maintained that if there were a playoff then I'd be just fine and dandy with a move up a notch in scholarships. With bowls...no chance at all I'd be for it.

[ASUMountaineer]

For the most part these moves are purely to satisfy the egos of the university's AD and President. Hopefully it works out for Georgia Southern as they were a great FCS program, but IMO most universities making the move will fall into obscurity.

Ugh. 1) you can't possibly know that to be true and 2) how would they "fall into obscurity?" Seriously, the regurgitation of nonsense is amazing.

[ASUMountaineer]

I understand why everyone is talking about football (football board) but there's more to it. The SBC isn't really stellar in anything, at least to my knowledge. Maybe baseball? They might have a good team every now and again but none of there teams really compete on a national level. The AAC, MWC and even the MAC have multiple teams that do just that. If GSU and App State are forced to stay in a league like the SBC their athletic programs as a whole are going nowhere.

We can only compare our future life in the SBC to our current/past life in the SoCon. Your last sentence indicates an "if." Our current/past situation is a known commodity. We've made the decision to move on from our current situation. There are "ifs" involved, as you point out. But, what most pro-FCSers don't mention is that there are plenty of opportunities for stagnation in the FCS as well.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There would be no "move". There would be the new D-I tier and everyone else. The Sun Belt, MAC, C-USA and maybe the AAC would be integrated into the FCS' structure.


Temple, Tulane, USF, Memphis maybe UConn (hello MLS at Rentschler) would drop football before that happens. I give football another 3 years at Temple before another decision is made.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Temple, Tulane, USF, Memphis maybe UConn (hello MLS at Rentschler) would drop football before that happens. I give football another 3 years at Temple before another decision is made.

I wholeheartily agree that it would mean some really tough decisions at that level. You could probably add UAB to that list. Though I think Temple and Tulane would soldier on in Division I.

[SpiritCymbal]

It's actually not murky waters. The Sun Belt is an upgrade in every way.

Again, your answer to put down the Sun Belt is to compare it to the rest of the FBS or the "power stars of the FCS" (as opposed to comparing it to what we are actually leaving). If you were to take the "power stars" of the FBS and combine them into one conference, it might be somewhere in the same neighborhood of the Sun Belt conference.

If you just compare the Sun Belt to the SoCon, it's not close.

The level of football is higher. Arkansas State, ULL, Troy, ULM will be better any given year then what is left in the SoCon. Plus you are taking the two undisputed kings of SoCon football (and two of the best FCS programs) and adding them to the mix.

Fan support and exposure will be better. There will be 6 sun belt teams averaging 20,000 fans or more. There might be 1 school in the SoCon over 10,000. TV time will be better if we get 1 TV game a year.

Expenses will be higher but the payout will be higher and exposure will be better. Donations to the school have already broken records.

We will be playing a better level of football with more people watching and be getting paid more to do it. What am I missing here?

+1

Pretty much summed it up.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

There would be no "move". There would be the new D-I tier and everyone else. The Sun Belt, MAC, C-USA and maybe the AAC would be integrated into the FCS' structure.

I don't think so. It would be a mix of top FCS and the remaining FBS outside of the top and there would be scholly floors to be involved there. There would also probably be a redux in FBS scholly's by about 10% with a floor of maybe 70 scholly's. I agree that outside of that it would be very similar to current FCS structure though. There would probably be a name change again as well. xlolx

[SpiritCymbal]

Good article about this situation becoming a reality.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/22847993/life-to-the-bcs-look-for-division-4-to-revolutionize-college-athletics


DALLAS -- The gravity of the situation hit home when a conservative administrator -- a wrestler in his younger days and AD at academically elite Stanford for six years -- was the one to finally give voice to the upheaval we'd been hearing about for months.

While it's not a full-on breakaway from the NCAA that's coming to college football, the look and feel of the sport will never be the same. Frustrated at a bogged-down, ineffective NCAA, Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby said Monday he and his BCS conference peers favored "transformative change" in college athletics.

He later identified that change as the possible establishment of a so-called “Division 4” of the highest level of football-playing schools.

"We've made it too easy to get into Division I," Bowlsby said Monday at his conference's media days, "and too easy to stay there."

So who needs the MAC -- or Mountain West or any of the non-BCS schools that get table scraps as it is? Certainly not the BCS schools about to formalize what has been a de facto for-profit model driving college athletics.

What we'd been hearing for those months now seems to be heading for reality. There is going to be a further subdivision at the highest level of college football. It last happened in 1978 when FCS (Division I-AA) was created. That relegated 250 or so schools to the non-revenue purgatory that is I-AA.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Truth to be told, the likes of the Sun Belt were happy to get those table scraps. Those schools and their wise commissioner, Karl Benson

Sorry. Couldn't make it past this. xlolx

[Mountaineer]

I don't think so. It would be a mix of top FCS and the remaining FBS outside of the top and there would be scholly floors to be involved there.

Yup. I think that would be the ideal situation. I wouldn't mind at all seeing the BCS conferences break off and another division created from the G5 and top FCS schools. Minimum schollies indeed.

But there's not a chance in hell the G5 are going to go willingly into the FCS fold as it stands now with the Pioneer, Patriot, OVC..etc. That's a pipedream by AGS's biggest Wishmaster/Troll. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yup. I think that would be the ideal situation. I wouldn't mind at all seeing the BCS conferences break off and another division created from the G5 and top FCS schools. Minimum schollies indeed.

But there's not a chance in hell the G5 are going to go willingly into the FCS fold as it stands now with the Pioneer, Patriot, OVC..etc. That's a pipedream by AGS's biggest Wishmaster/Troll. xlolx

Still butthurt after robbing Lafayette all those years ago, I see. As clean an onsides kick as you'll see.

[Waco Kid]

There would be no "move". There would be the new D-I tier and everyone else. The Sun Belt, MAC, C-USA and maybe the AAC would be integrated into the FCS' structure.

I disagree. The Group of 5 schools would not be forced into the FCS. There may be an opportunity for more of the top FCS schools to move up to the Group of 5 FBS level, but the requirements would still be higher than the current FCS standards. In the end we (App, GSU, ODU, G State, UNCC) will still be playing a higher level of ball than what we are currently playing in. It will be interesting to see how this pans out because there are some pretty big programs outside of the current Power 5 conferences that will fight very hard to stay at the top level.

[Eagle22]

I don't think so. It would be a mix of top FCS and the remaining FBS outside of the top and there would be scholly floors to be involved there. There would also probably be a redux in FBS scholly's by about 10% with a floor of maybe 70 scholly's. I agree that outside of that it would be very similar to current FCS structure though. There would probably be a name change again as well. xlolx

How does that "mix" manifest itself and keep current conference structures intact ? That has been one of the biggest hurdles with realignment, given all the scholarship limitations along with geographic reality.

FCS leagues want to maintain that geographic integrity but at least in the case of the SoCon they have no mechanism that allows football teams to play above the 63 scholarship level.

With the membership diversity in the league the SoCon won't be able to go as a group to 70 scholarships, and all that means is that the SoCon will step "down" further should a new level be added.

That is the inherent problem ... and the main reason we've never seen a team come 'back' from going 'up'. IMO, teams will disband their programs before they unwind 10-20 years worth of work trying to separate themselves from where they were.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I disagree. The Group of 5 schools would not be forced into the FCS. There may be an opportunity for more of the top FCS schools to move up to the Group of 5 FBS level, but the requirements would still be higher than the current FCS standards. In the end we (App, GSU, ODU, G State, UNCC) will still be playing a higher level of ball than what we are currently playing in. It will be interesting to see how this pans out because there are some pretty big programs outside of the current Power 5 conferences that will fight very hard to stay at the top level.

The problem is there's a divide even within the Other 5. The SBC/CUSA has very little in common with the AAC and MWC. The schools in the AAC/MWC have little interest in sharing the same room as GSU, FIU, ULL, ULM, La Tech etc.

The MAC is a bit of tweener but I think the conference has a quality enough niche to overcome the EMU's of the world.

[ThompsonThe]

A typical response. A critique of the SunBelt must illicit a critique of the SoCon.

It is a complete nonstarter to support an argument like "well, the SunBelt is better than you think," with "well, the SoCon sucks." App and GSU wanted to move. They wanted anyone to take them. If the MAC came calling, you'd be singing the MAC's praises. If it was some other conference, same story. If they'd managed to be independent, we'd hear all about how great it was to be an FBS Independent.

App State and GSU don't care what conference they are in, so this feigned offense at the suggestion that the SunBelt has been slighted in the national conversation is nonsensical. You don't care about the SunBelt. You care about the FBS.

I believe your premise to be generally correct. However the Sun Belt was something like 7 wins and 2 losses again CUSA in 2012. Even CUSA posters many times acknowledge that the Sun Belt was a better football conference in 2012 than CUSA. That extended into the bowl games with ULL beating East Carolina by @ 10 points.

[ThompsonThe]

Because we are getting paid to go on the road. Which, all teams have to. That said, if we scheduled a game with UAB or Southern Miss or the like, we would get basically nothing, because most of those games will be home and home.


Maybe you should ask the Geo So AD why he's so excited $1.9 million of revenue for 3 road games against FBS opponents, if Geo So could make the same money by playing at home in FCS. Please explain why the AD thinks $1.9 million for these 3 games is a big deal. Major reason also includes the fact that GaSo does not have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay three teams to play at their place. So the idea that you make as much playing at home simply adding up the ticket prices does not justify itself.

[seantaylor]

Major reason also includes the fact that GaSo does not have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay three teams to play at their place. So the idea that you make as much playing at home simply adding up the ticket prices does not justify itself.

Not hundreds of thousands for the likes of GSU and Appy, but still significant money if said school won't do a home and home. We have two absolute patsies on the schedule that will never see a return trip. Sammy's final present. Our schedule is one of the worst I've ever seen. Almost a blessing in disguise we are ineligible for playoffs.

[ThompsonThe]

Because we are getting paid to go on the road. Which, all teams have to. That said, if we scheduled a game with UAB or Southern Miss or the like, we would get basically nothing, because most of those games will be home and home.


The problem is there's a divide even within the Other 5. The SBC/CUSA has very little in common with the AAC and MWC. The schools in the AAC/MWC have little interest in sharing the same room as GSU, FIU, ULL, ULM, La Tech etc.

The MAC is a bit of tweener but I think the conference has a quality enough niche to overcome the EMU's of the world.

Who played in the BCS playoff game last year as the top team in the G5? Was a MAC team with basically the best record. You have a super high opinion of the AAC, possibly from a carry over of the Big East adulation, however they will be good, but not unbeatable by any means.

[PaladinFan]

I believe your premise to be generally correct. However the Sun Belt was something like 7 wins and 2 losses again CUSA in 2012. Even CUSA posters many times acknowledge that the Sun Belt was a better football conference in 2012 than CUSA. That extended into the bowl games with ULL beating East Carolina by @ 10 points.

I understand your point. I'm not saying it's terrible football. I'm saying it doesn't matter what type of football they play. It does not mean that the entire conference is void of any good football teams. There are good football programs. The reality is that if you and I go to some major city street corner and get people to rank FBS football conference, the SunBelt would more likely than not be at the bottom.

It is a little bit misleading, though, to compare the 2012 SunBelt to the 2013 or 2014 SunBelt. The conference lost four members this year. Those members are being replaced with FCS teams and vagabond FBS programs NMSU and Idaho. Were it a great conference, it would have the stability it clearly does not display. Even Chancellor Peacock over a beer would probably tell you that App State would be on the first train out to something better.

The point is that it is irrelevant to critique the SoCon or the SunBelt. That is not part of the analysis. App isn't moving to the SunBelt because of some perceived prestige. They want to play FBS football wherever it may be found.

[eaglewraith]

Not hundreds of thousands for the likes of GSU and Appy, but still significant money if said school won't do a home and home. We have two absolute patsies on the schedule that will never see a return trip. Sammy's final present. Our schedule is one of the worst I've ever seen. Almost a blessing in disguise we are ineligible for playoffs.

Well if we were still eligible, it's a great schedule to get us back in the playoffs. With the conference we play in, we don't have to play the best FCS teams in the country to look good for the playoff committee. Win your games and you're in with a good seed. Our schedule was the same last year, we just needed to take care of business with Cit and App and we'd have met NDSU in Frisco.

[Saint3333]

Even Chancellor Peacock over a beer would probably tell you that App State would be on the first train out to something better.



Yep and he'd tell you that App couldn't have an opportunity to get on the next train if we stayed in the SoCon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Who played in the BCS playoff game last year as the top team in the G5? Was a MAC team with basically the best record. You have a super high opinion of the AAC, possibly from a carry over of the Big East adulation, however they will be good, but not unbeatable by any means.

These types of opportunities will basically become a thing of the past once the BCS ceases to exist after this season.

[seantaylor]

Well if we were still eligible, it's a great schedule to get us back in the playoffs. With the conference we play in, we don't have to play the best FCS teams in the country to look good for the playoff committee. Win your games and you're in with a good seed. Our schedule was the same last year, we just needed to take care of business with Cit and App and we'd have met NDSU in Frisco.

A GSU team under an option coach gets in the playoffs every single year no matter the schedule. This is one of the worst schedules of any team in the country in any year. I know Sammy still has some swallowers, but this is absolutely pathetic.

[eaglewraith]

A GSU team under an option coach gets in the playoffs every single year no matter the schedule. This is one of the worst schedules of any team in the country in any year. I know Sammy still has some swallowers, but this is absolutely pathetic.

It's all D1 teams with a money game and a close opponent that should get us a decent crowd. How is it the worst schedule ever? I'd play SSU every year if I could. Throw another random patsy and an FBS game in. Bam there's your OOC schedule.

And your first point was proven wrong by Mike Sewak. You have to do good in the conference. OOC doesn't matter if you don't take care of business in conference.

[seantaylor]

It's all D1 teams with a money game and a close opponent that should get us a decent crowd. How is it the worst schedule ever? I'd play SSU every year if I could. Throw another random patsy and an FBS game in. Bam there's your OOC schedule.

And your first point was proven wrong by Mike Sewak. You have to do good in the conference. OOC doesn't matter if you don't take care of business in conference.

LOL. We don't ever need a gimme to get in the playoffs. It is a terrible schedule. Keep towing the company line. Even TK has admitted it was very weak. You would still be riding Sammy's stuff if no change was made.

[asumike83]

LOL. We don't ever need a gimme to get in the playoffs.

Those games with Savannah State and Coastal sure didn't hurt in getting you to 7 wins in 2010.

[seantaylor]

LOL. We don't ever need a gimme to get in the playoffs. It is a terrible schedule. Keep towing the company line. Even TK has admitted it was very weak. You would still be riding Sammy's stuff if no change was made.

Getting away from the garbage that was Hatcher. Don't mind the SSU game if absolutely neccesary, but you cannot follow it up with St Francis ever. Our home schedule this year looks like Sam Cassell's asshole.

[PaladinFan]

It's all D1 teams with a money game and a close opponent that should get us a decent crowd. How is it the worst schedule ever? I'd play SSU every year if I could. Throw another random patsy and an FBS game in. Bam there's your OOC schedule.

And your first point was proven wrong by Mike Sewak. You have to do good in the conference. OOC doesn't matter if you don't take care of business in conference.

That line of questioning warrants the same response that I give to Furman fans that whine and moan about playing Presbyterian every single season - if you want to pony up the money to play a road game at another major FCS program, I'm sure the university will let you. With economies as they are, it is just better policy to keep things local. If the teams around you aren't that good, well, c'est la vie

[eaglewraith]

That line of questioning warrants the same response that I give to Furman fans that whine and moan about playing Presbyterian every single season - if you want to pony up the money to play a road game at another major FCS program, I'm sure the university will let you. With economies as they are, it is just better policy to keep things local. If the teams around you aren't that good, well, c'est la vie

The question for top Socon teams becomes why play a tough OOC schedule and make it harder on yourself? All we have to do is win our conference or do extremely well. The OOC doesn't matter. Someone like Lehigh needs a strong OOC schedule to get a look as an at large if they slip up, we don't. We play tougher competition the entire year.

I agree that the OOC is weak, but that's a schedule that sets you up for the playoffs. No D2's and easily winnable D1 games outside of UF. Save the good stuff for the end of the year.

[eaglewraith]

LOL. We don't ever need a gimme to get in the playoffs. It is a terrible schedule. Keep towing the company line. Even TK has admitted it was very weak. You would still be riding Sammy's stuff if no change was made.

But we don't need to make it harder on ourselves. I was happy with next year's schedule and how it set us up for the playoffs. The only thing I was pissed about was the home and home with UNCC that Baker had us doing the away trip first, that's horrible scheduling. I was also pissed at Sam for making the NDSU/SDSU deals a few years back. We shouldn't have ever made home/home deals with transitional/startup teams. That was beyong ridiculous. So no, I'm not a Sam fan at all.

Assuming we weren't going FBS, what purpose does it serve to play Montana, ODU, and NDSU OOC along with our conference slate? Is that what you would rather see?

[seantaylor]

But we don't need to make it harder on ourselves. I was happy with next year's schedule and how it set us up for the playoffs. The only thing I was pissed about was the home and home with UNCC that Baker had us doing the away trip first, that's horrible scheduling. I was also pissed at Sam for making the NDSU/SDSU deals a few years back. We shouldn't have ever made home/home deals with transitional/startup teams. That was beyong ridiculous. So no, I'm not a Sam fan at all.

Assuming we weren't going FBS, what purpose does it serve to play Montana, ODU, and NDSU OOC along with our conference slate? Is that what you would rather see?

The cash money outweighs what you think would be harder on us. There is no way GSU doesn't get in a playoff nowadays with 7 or more wins. When is the last time we lost to an OOC FCS opponent? Certainly not in the Monken era. Just a guy that was in way over his head and lazy screwing us. I want to play the best the FCS has to offer every single year.

[seantaylor]

But we don't need to make it harder on ourselves. I was happy with next year's schedule and how it set us up for the playoffs. The only thing I was pissed about was the home and home with UNCC that Baker had us doing the away trip first, that's horrible scheduling. I was also pissed at Sam for making the NDSU/SDSU deals a few years back. We shouldn't have ever made home/home deals with transitional/startup teams. That was beyong ridiculous. So no, I'm not a Sam fan at all.

Assuming we weren't going FBS, what purpose does it serve to play Montana, ODU, and NDSU OOC along with our conference slate? Is that what you would rather see?

We could play our third sting against this schedule and still go to the playoffs. The Hatcher era is over. The scheduling is awful. Stop fronting.

[eaglewraith]

The cash money outweighs what you think would be harder on us. There is no way GSU doesn't get in a playoff nowadays with 7 or more wins. When is the last time we lost to an OOC FCS opponent? Certainly not in the Monken era. Just a guy that was in way over his head and lazy screwing us. I want to play the best the FCS has to offer every single year.

What cash money? We make more money playing at home for these one offs with weak teams. You think we made money on the trip to SDSU in 2009? At best we came a little over splitting even. If we could make money in FCS then we'd be staying here. We got lucky in 2011 that we changed the NDSU game, otherwise we would have gotten our ass beat earlier than when they did play us.

And you have the chance to play the best of the FCS in the playoffs. That's the objective anyway. Make a favorable road to the playoffs and then you get the matchups you want to see, with everything on the line.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

App and GSU fans..please don't buy into the hype and refer to Louisiana-Lafayette as Louisiana.

Please please don't...

I enjoy prodding a few of the more militant Cajun fans, Rev. They are UL-L to me and a few of their fans act like the school just started playing football when Hudspeth got there. I remind them of who they "really" are.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The question for top Socon teams becomes why play a tough OOC schedule and make it harder on yourself? All we have to do is win our conference or do extremely well. The OOC doesn't matter. Someone like Lehigh needs a strong OOC schedule to get a look as an at large if they slip up, we don't. We play "tougher" competition the entire year.

I agree that the OOC is weak, but that's a schedule that sets you up for the playoffs. No D2's and easily winnable D1 games outside of UF. Save the good stuff for the end of the year.

Fixed it for you. I agree. Wussy OOC games, lard up with FBS teams and near-risk-free low-rent D-Is. That's a schedule that sets you up for the playoffs.

The prosecution rests.

[BisonFan02]

Fixed it for you. I agree. Wussy OOC games, lard up with FBS teams and near-risk-free low-rent D-Is. That's a schedule that sets you up for the playoffs.

The prosecution rests.

It does when you play a real conference schedule instead of a pool of teams that are considered to be the OOC creampuffs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It does when you play a real conference schedule instead of a pool of teams that are considered to be the OOC creampuffs.

Unlike, say, Georgia State or Western Carolina.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Unlike, say, Georgia State or Western Carolina.

So who would be your Furman, Wofford, or App in your league? Oh yeah, you don't have one. Time to leave the real FCS conferences alone, and go back to pipe dreaming about (insert CAA team here) to the PL......

[BisonFan02]

Unlike, say, Georgia State or Western Carolina.

I would say South Dakota too for the Valley, but they beat your conference champ.

[GSUhooligan]

http://i.imgur.com/9gdyd.gif

[BisonFan02]

http://i.imgur.com/9gdyd.gif

3-0

[GSUhooligan]

3-0

6-2

[BisonFan02]

6-2

One more time! One more time! One more...****

[SUPharmacist]

6-2

Impressive, long way to go for NDSU. But, the 3-0 head to head matters. Plus 2 championships in what 5 years of eligibility vs 6 in about 29 years of eligibility is not as one sided as you like to think.

[eaglewraith]

Impressive, long way to go for NDSU. But, the 3-0 head to head matters. Plus 2 championships in what 5 years of eligibility vs 6 in about 29 years of eligibility is not as one sided as you like to think.

We had 2 in 3 years of eligibility. We won the championship our second year at this level. Ours are definitely pretty front heavy.

[SUPharmacist]

We had 2 in 3 years of eligibility. We won the championship our second year at this level. Ours are definitely pretty front heavy.

indeed, and I would be delusional if I thought this was going to be a regular pace fot NDSU.

[eaglewraith]

indeed, and I would be delusional if I thought this was going to be a regular pace fot NDSU.

Just enjoy it while it lasts. Can't stay on the hill forever.