Is JMU waiting by the phone for CUSA?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9472282/for-basketball-conferences-10-members-magic-number


Resilient is exactly what the Colonial and the Sun Belt had to be after they were plucked apart by Conference USA and the A-10.

The CAA lost George Mason to the A-10 after VCU went last year. Georgia State was off to the Sun Belt in a lateral football-driven move. Old Dominion bolted for Conference USA for football.

The CAA had to make a move and got the College of Charleston. The hope was to also get Davidson, but the Wildcats got a better offer from the A-10. So Elon was next. Charleston is on board for the upcoming season to get the CAA to nine, Elon will join in 2014 out of the Southern to get the CAA to the magic 10.

Moving the conference tournament from Richmond to Baltimore for the first time in over two decades is also causing plenty of angst and excitement for the CAA.

"For all the challenges we face with scheduling, 18 conference games was something good for our schools," said CAA commissioner Tom Yeager.

The next movement out of the CAA could be James Madison. JMU is currently weighing what it will do with football. If it were to upgrade, then the first phone call could be to join ODU in CUSA. If that were to happen then CUSA would have to grab one more school to get to an event number, likely looking toward the Sun Belt again.

"I'm not too concerned at this point," said Yeager of JMU leaving.

New Sun Belt commissioner Karl Benson knew when he was jumping off the then-sinking WAC ship that the Sun Belt would be grossly affected by alignment.

"We added seven and lost five," said Benson. "While I didn't want us to go through that, we did well." Benson also added Idaho and New Mexico State as football-only schools to throw a bone to two former WAC league members who had to find a home for football.

"I like our trade of schools," he said.

What's next in realignment? The James Madison question will need to be answered.

JMU is weighing what to do with football. Discuss.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Indirectly in my CCSU preview for LFN I also mention JMU's situation, which I thought I'd stick here as well.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/07/know-your-2013-opponents-central.html


Old Dominion had many pundits wondering if the CAA would survive realignmentaggedon at all, but they were able to somewhat stop the bleeding by acquiring two more all-sports members in College of Charleston and Elon from the SoCon.

Could CCSU fit into their plans? Absolutely.

As Old Dominion left the CAA for a future in FBS football, many folks speculated that Delaware or James Madison, two all-sports members, might join them.

If James Madison gets an invitation from Conference USA - something that Old Dominion has been rumored to be lobbying for - where could the CAA turn in regards to football?

They would need an all-sports member to retain some level of control of the football conference, which already consists of a majority of affiliates. Delaware, James Madison, Towson, William & Mary, and (in 2014) Elon will be the only all-sports members that sponsor football. Lose another school like James Madison, and control of the whole football league could be in jeopardy.

Would CCSU be a perfect fit in the CAA? No. As nice as upgraded Arute field is, it's not the same thing as Tubby Raymond Field in Delaware or Bridgeforth stadium at James Madison, both which can seat more than 20,000 people and are two of the best fan atmospheres in all of FCS. But if one of those two schools leave, the CAA might not have much of a choice.

There's not a lot of schools that sponsor football that would fit that the CAA might need. CCSU would, however.

[Sandlapper Spike]

The risk to the CAA of inviting Central Connecticut State to replace JMU is that existing members may choose to leave as a result. Of course,they might leave anyway.

[jmufan999]

if i were a betting man, i'd gamble that JMU ends up in CUSA. ODU has championed the cause time and again, that certainly can't hurt any.

i believe JMU would prefer CUSA to the MAC or Sun Belt. just my guess.

and the fact that JMU has essentially turned down the Sun Belt already (since they've made it abundantly clear they want JMU and we haven't gone anywhere) tells me that JMU is down to 3 options: stay in CAA, move to MAC, move to CUSA. i believe the latter will happen. i'll miss the playoffs. big time. out of my control, though.

[smallcollegefbfan]

if i were a betting man, i'd gamble that JMU ends up in CUSA. ODU has championed the cause time and again, that certainly can't hurt any.

i believe JMU would prefer CUSA to the MAC or Sun Belt. just my guess.

and the fact that JMU has essentially turned down the Sun Belt already (since they've made it abundantly clear they want JMU and we haven't gone anywhere) tells me that JMU is down to 3 options: stay in CAA, move to MAC, move to CUSA. i believe the latter will happen. i'll miss the playoffs. big time. out of my control, though.

It's interesting to hear that a lot of fans, whether they want to leave or not miss the playoffs but if the schools really cared about the playoffs so much they would not leave. We know playoffs are coming to FBS but it may be 20 years, if ever, that a school like App or JMU would have a real clear pathway to a playoff bid as long as they were to win their league or finish in the top 25. The BCS schools seem to not want mid-majors crashing their party. It's interesting to see that these schools are willing to jump at the invite without playoffs likely in the next 10-15 years even though fans, players, and coaches all love them. If you listen to GSU or App State players they have talked about, both publicly and behind closed doors, that they will miss the playoffs but they are playing for a lot this year regardless and want what they feel is bets for the school. At the end of the day administration, coaches, and players believe FBS is best for them 90% of the time or at least it seems that way.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At the end of the day administration, coaches, and players believe FBS is best for them 90% of the time or at least it seems that way.

Interesting that two of these three parties see their potential pay increased with a move to FBS, while the players still get paid the same - a "free education", though there will be a few more "free educations" available yearly to athletes.

[DFW HOYA]

I understand PL people that say they'll never, ever, ever consider it, but if Fordham got a call from the CAA in 2014, they're now in a much more competitive position to listen to the offer.

The problem for JMU (above the potential travel to places like UTEP and North Texas) is that anything above 14 teams start to become unstable. What is needed is not a 16 team C-USA and a 16-team Sun Belt, but a 10 team conference of the eastern members in these conferences:

App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison - Marshall
Liberty - Old Dominion

[jmufan999]

It's interesting to hear that a lot of fans, whether they want to leave or not miss the playoffs but if the schools really cared about the playoffs so much they would not leave. We know playoffs are coming to FBS but it may be 20 years, if ever, that a school like App or JMU would have a real clear pathway to a playoff bid as long as they were to win their league or finish in the top 25. The BCS schools seem to not want mid-majors crashing their party. It's interesting to see that these schools are willing to jump at the invite without playoffs likely in the next 10-15 years even though fans, players, and coaches all love them. If you listen to GSU or App State players they have talked about, both publicly and behind closed doors, that they will miss the playoffs but they are playing for a lot this year regardless and want what they feel is bets for the school. At the end of the day administration, coaches, and players believe FBS is best for them 90% of the time or at least it seems that way.

that's just it: the schools don't care about the playoffs.

and you and i are on the same page about something else. a FAIR playoff (4 teams is not "fair", 4 teams = 2 SEC teams and 2 other BCS teams) may not happen for a long time. i can't tell you how many delusional JMU fans there are, which is why I've stopped visiting that message board. they think in 5 years it's going to open up to 16 teams. could it happen? i guess. i wouldn't bet on it, though.

after the BCS splits, we would have "moved up" to still be in the second best division, except with NO playoffs, and quite possibly the same amount of media attention. woo!!!

and then there are people that think we can move up to the 2nd tier, THEN move up to the BCS. "how can we be in position to move up without taking the next step?" maybe they're right, i don't know. but what they're not considering is that we could be in the EXACT same position we are now, except without any kind of realistic shot at making the playoffs. how is that better?

also, i think anyone that cites "my friends don't care about JMU football" or "ESPN never talks about JMU" as a reason to move up needs to work on their self-esteem. why do people need to have their friends care about everything they do? my friends don't care about JMU but you don't see me crying about it.

tired of arguing with these JMU fans. stepping off soap box now.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Interesting that two of these three parties see their potential pay increased with a move to FBS, while the players still get paid the same - a "free education", though there will be a few more "free educations" available yearly to athletes.

In a way players do get more, maybe not legally but they do. As an FBS recruit they will get wooed more and maybe given more stuff by schools and better treatment, because colleges are spending more on them. They get more free gear, better gear, more favors because now they are playing at the big stage, etc. One thing to remember is that cost also depends on the school. Furman is really expensive because it's private and those players are getting a lot more money towards their education than a player at App State or Georgia Southern already.

Players are given free feed (meal plan), free books and classes (scholarship), lots of free gear, often preferential treatment such as tutors given to them or teachers giving them more wiggle room on assignments and due dates, and not to mention they are housed for free as well.

By paying college players directly they become professionals and thus the bar is risen on how you treat them. Also, do you see how many rookies and young players in the NFL blow their money? Could you imagine an 18 or 19 or 20 year old and how they would blow the money paid to them? That money would be long gone 90% of the time within a 2 weeks of giving it to them. That would just be more waste with our tax dollars, since we technically are paying for their scholarships with our donations to our alma mater and tax dollars. Do you really want to give an 18 or 19 year old who has no clue how to manage money say 10,000 of of our money to blow while you are living paycheck to paycheck? People seem to forget we are the ones who are essentially paying for everything. Without us watching and going to games there is no advertising so no TV revenue, etc. Directly and indirectly you are paying for all of this. I think it's stupid to want to give an 18 year old money to blow when the rest of us don't have that money to blow. They need to worry about studying and practice and not how to spend that 10 grand the school paid them on their friends for parties and all. Paying them just opens a can of worms that you can't ever close.

[smallcollegefbfan]

that's just it: the schools don't care about the playoffs.

and you and i are on the same page about something else. a FAIR playoff (4 teams is not "fair", 4 teams = 2 SEC teams and 2 other BCS teams) may not happen for a long time. i can't tell you how many delusional JMU fans there are, which is why I've stopped visiting that message board. they think in 5 years it's going to open up to 16 teams. could it happen? i guess. i wouldn't bet on it, though.

after the BCS splits, we would have "moved up" to still be in the second best division, except with NO playoffs, and quite possibly the same amount of media attention. woo!!!

and then there are people that think we can move up to the 2nd tier, THEN move up to the BCS. "how can we be in position to move up without taking the next step?" maybe they're right, i don't know. but what they're not considering is that we could be in the EXACT same position we are now, except without any kind of realistic shot at making the playoffs. how is that better?

also, i think anyone that cites "my friends don't care about JMU football" or "ESPN never talks about JMU" as a reason to move up needs to work on their self-esteem. why do people need to have their friends care about everything they do? my friends don't care about JMU but you don't see me crying about it.

tired of arguing with these JMU fans. stepping off soap box now.

Well, you could argue that the only reason people care about App State outside of FCS is the Michigan game and not the 3 national titles. App didn't get any big time focus until they beat Michigan. I think often times schools see playing those type games and winning them is only a legit shot and not a once in a lifetime type win but something they can compete to do regularly by moving up.

Schools don't care about the playoffs for the most part. It's like look at everyone here who follow FCS. Does anyone talk about Mount Union? How many know about Mount Union? Mount Union is in the middle of a winning decade that blows away anything App State or JMU or Georgia Southern or Montana or anyone else has ever done but FCS people don't care because it's just D3. ESPN, most of the college football world, and FBS don't care about FCS accomplishments because like D3 is to FCS it's just a step down from non BCS FBS programs let alone the BCS programs.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I understand PL people that say they'll never, ever, ever consider it, but if Fordham got a call from the CAA in 2014, they're now in a much more competitive position to listen to the offer.

I think they are seeing how having scholarships helps their recruiting and being in the CAA will help it even more. They jump if given an offer, I think.

[Lehigh'98]

I understand PL people that say they'll never, ever, ever consider it, but if Fordham got a call from the CAA in 2014, they're now in a much more competitive position to listen to the offer.


Why would any PL team consider moving up while averaging under 10k (in some cases, well under) attendance? The avg person has no idea Fordham has a team. The market is there, but the interest is way lacking.

*** Sorry to hijack another thread for PL. I support JMU moving up.

[DFW HOYA]

Why would any PL team consider moving up while averaging under 10k (in some cases, well under) attendance? The avg person has no idea Fordham has a team. The market is there, but the interest is way lacking.

Fordham is spending close to $6 million a year on football with little regional visibility.

The PL is a safe harbor for the Rams and can be for some time but it's a question of what is in their long term strategic interest for football as an A-10 school. One doesn't have to average 10K to play in the CAA, as the New England schools will attest, but they've got to figure out what to do with Jack Coffey Field at some point.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Why would any PL team consider moving up while averaging under 10k (in some cases, well under) attendance? The avg person has no idea Fordham has a team. The market is there, but the interest is way lacking.

*** Sorry to hijack another thread for PL. I support JMU moving up.

He is talking about CAA not FBS. Fordham can't move up to FBS from what I have seen, even if they wanted to.

[Lehigh'98]

Fordham is spending close to $6 million a year on football with little regional visibility.

The PL is a safe harbor for the Rams and can be for some time but it's a question of what is in their long term strategic interest for football as an A-10 school. One doesn't have to average 10K to play in the CAA, as the New England schools will attest, but they've got to figure out what to do with Jack Coffey Field at some point.

I misunderstood, thought you meant once they are in CAA, they could listen to FBS offer. CAA I could see them in.

[PAllen]

I understand PL people that say they'll never, ever, ever consider it, but if Fordham got a call from the CAA in 2014, they're now in a much more competitive position to listen to the offer.

The problem for JMU (above the potential travel to places like UTEP and North Texas) is that anything above 14 teams start to become unstable. What is needed is not a 16 team C-USA and a 16-team Sun Belt, but a 10 team conference of the eastern members in these conferences:

App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison - Marshall
Liberty - Old Dominion

Yeah, it's called the New Southern Conferene.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Yeah, it's called the New Southern Conferene.

Could you imagine if that was the Southern Conference and the current SoCon (including ETSU, Mercer, VMI) was the Big South? That would be loaded leagues considering. I think if the teams you just named could be in the same league with 85 scholarships they would be okay staying in FCS as long as they had a good TV deal but staying in the SoCon has not allowed that and all of them want more than 63 scholarships and being considered second tier in the southeast. That is a very strong group you just listed.

[MplsBison]

I understand PL people that say they'll never, ever, ever consider it, but if Fordham got a call from the CAA in 2014, they're now in a much more competitive position to listen to the offer.

The problem for JMU (above the potential travel to places like UTEP and North Texas) is that anything above 14 teams start to become unstable. What is needed is not a 16 team C-USA and a 16-team Sun Belt, but a 10 team conference of the eastern members in these conferences:


New Conf (as proposed by DFW Hoya):
App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison - Marshall
Liberty - Old Dominion

CUSA:
UAB - So. Miss
WKU - MTSU
Rice - North Texas
UTEP - UTSA
Louisiana Tech

Sun Belt:
South Alabama - Troy
Louisiana Monroe - Louisiana Lafayette
Texas St - Texas Arlington (no football)
Ark St - Ark Little Rock (no football)
Idaho (football only) - NM St (football only)


In this scenario, CUSA might consider adding Texas St to pair with UTSA, NM St to pair with UTEP and say Ark St to pair with LaTech.

That would leave the Sun Belt scrambling to pull up a bunch of FCS moveups.

[WestCoastAggie]

I understand PL people that say they'll never, ever, ever consider it, but if Fordham got a call from the CAA in 2014, they're now in a much more competitive position to listen to the offer.

The problem for JMU (above the potential travel to places like UTEP and North Texas) is that anything above 14 teams start to become unstable. What is needed is not a 16 team C-USA and a 16-team Sun Belt, but a 10 team conference of the eastern members in these conferences:

App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison - Marshall
Liberty - Old Dominion

This makes sense!

[AppMan]

JMU is a long ways out. Bottom line is they don't have the money and can't raise what are already some of the highest student fees in the country. Fundraising for the stadium fell woefully short and the only way they got it done was by selling bonds. The administration's priority is figuring out how to build a new basketball arena (at an estimated $60 mil) not CUSA. Some longtime JMU supporters I know are very discouraged right now. They see JMU stuck in the CAA for the foreseeable future.

[WestCoastAggie]

New Conf (as proposed by DFW Hoya):
App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison - Marshall
Liberty - Old Dominion

CUSA:
UAB - So. Miss
WKU - MTSU
Rice - North Texas
UTEP - UTSA
Louisiana Tech

Sun Belt:
South Alabama - Troy
Louisiana Monroe - Louisiana Lafayette
Texas St - Texas Arlington (no football)
Ark St - Ark Little Rock (no football)
Idaho (football only) - NM St (football only)


In this scenario, CUSA might consider adding Texas St to pair with UTSA, NM St to pair with UTEP and say Ark St to pair with LaTech.

That would leave the Sun Belt scrambling to pull up a bunch of FCS moveups.

Under this scenario, LA Tech could join their fellow LA schools in the Sun Belt. They would have 9 football playing teams. If not, they could look at SHSU moving up possibly.

[AppMan]

New Conf (as proposed by DFW Hoya):
App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison - Marshall
Liberty - Old Dominion

CUSA:
UAB - So. Miss
WKU - MTSU
Rice - North Texas
UTEP - UTSA
Louisiana Tech

Sun Belt:
South Alabama - Troy
Louisiana Monroe - Louisiana Lafayette
Texas St - Texas Arlington (no football)
Ark St - Ark Little Rock (no football)
Idaho (football only) - NM St (football only)


In this scenario, CUSA might consider adding Texas St to pair with UTSA, NM St to pair with UTEP and say Ark St to pair with LaTech.

That would leave the Sun Belt scrambling to pull up a bunch of FCS moveups.

A more realistic alignment would be sub Delaware for Marshall and add them to CUSA. Giving CUSA 10 schools as well. UD is actually closer to JMU than Marshall. Considering Navy is joining CUSA for football only they might as well add Army and have 12 teams.

Eastern Seaboard Athletic Conference - ESAC
App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison -Delaware
Liberty - Old Dominion

CUSA:
UAB - So. Miss
WKU - MTSU
Rice - North Texas
UTEP - UTSA
Louisiana Tech - Marshall
Army - Navy

Sun Belt:
South Alabama - Troy
Louisiana Monroe - Louisiana Lafayette
Texas St - Texas Arlington (no football)
Ark St - Ark Little Rock (no football)
Idaho (football only) - NM St (football only)

[LoneStar]

Navy is joining the AAC.

[alvinkayak6]

In a way players do get more, maybe not legally but they do. As an FBS recruit they will get wooed more and maybe given more stuff by schools and better treatment, because colleges are spending more on them. They get more free gear, better gear, more favors because now they are playing at the big stage, etc. One thing to remember is that cost also depends on the school. Furman is really expensive because it's private and those players are getting a lot more money towards their education than a player at App State or Georgia Southern already.

Players are given free feed (meal plan), free books and classes (scholarship), lots of free gear, often preferential treatment such as tutors given to them or teachers giving them more wiggle room on assignments and due dates, and not to mention they are housed for free as well.

By paying college players directly they become professionals and thus the bar is risen on how you treat them. Also, do you see how many rookies and young players in the NFL blow their money? Could you imagine an 18 or 19 or 20 year old and how they would blow the money paid to them? That money would be long gone 90% of the time within a 2 weeks of giving it to them. That would just be more waste with our tax dollars, since we technically are paying for their scholarships with our donations to our alma mater and tax dollars. Do you really want to give an 18 or 19 year old who has no clue how to manage money say 10,000 of of our money to blow while you are living paycheck to paycheck? People seem to forget we are the ones who are essentially paying for everything. Without us watching and going to games there is no advertising so no TV revenue, etc. Directly and indirectly you are paying for all of this. I think it's stupid to want to give an 18 year old money to blow when the rest of us don't have that money to blow. They need to worry about studying and practice and not how to spend that 10 grand the school paid them on their friends for parties and all. Paying them just opens a can of worms that you can't ever close.

I appreciate the fact that you hold 18 and 19 year olds to higher standards of economic decision-making than the universities themselves. xrolleyesx

[813Jag]

Under this scenario, LA Tech could join their fellow LA schools in the Sun Belt. They would have 9 football playing teams. If not, they could look at SHSU moving up possibly.
I couldn't see LaTech making that move, you'd have a better chance of seeing the other two moving to CUSA.

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

I don't think you will see JMU be leaving the CAA anytime soon, not only do they have financial problems, but a few months ago both the Sun Belt and USA went public and said they will not be adding teams in the near future. Yes, I do think JMU will eventually end up in USA, but not for atleast 3-5 years, I think the schools are happy with their conferences, they know JMU isn't going anywhere, and why do you want to split the revenue with another start up FBS school?

[Apphole]

There's a difference between "turning down the Sun Belt" and waiting on the corner with your bags packed for a CUSA offer that will never come.

JMU isn't in a major media market. They have no chance for CUSA. They are going through the same thing App did two years later. It's Sun Belt or stay in the CAA.

[asumike83]

if i were a betting man, i'd gamble that JMU ends up in CUSA. ODU has championed the cause time and again, that certainly can't hurt any.

i believe JMU would prefer CUSA to the MAC or Sun Belt. just my guess.

and the fact that JMU has essentially turned down the Sun Belt already (since they've made it abundantly clear they want JMU and we haven't gone anywhere) tells me that JMU is down to 3 options: stay in CAA, move to MAC, move to CUSA. i believe the latter will happen. i'll miss the playoffs. big time. out of my control, though.

I wish JMU the best but as it relates to C-USA, I wouldn't hold my breath. App had ECU campaigning for them to join. ECU was one of the most important programs in C-USA and they still got shot down. I'm not sure a newcomer like ODU would have the pull to bring in the teams they want. Charlotte or Marshall are the only other schools that might possibly be in JMU's corner because of the geographic convenience. I doubt that any of the others will want to bring in another FCS school when they have three brand-new programs in the conference already.

The MAC is a possibility but remote, IMO. They have not made any mention of expansion to my knowledge.

App could have joined the Sun Belt last year but stood pat in hopes of a C-USA invite as well. It really depends how satisfied the JMU alumni and administration are with the CAA and FCS football. If they are content where they are, doubt we see any movement for several years. If FBS football is an important goal for them, I believe they will find that the Sun Belt is their only means of getting there.

If C-USA does expand, I'd look for them to poach the Sun Belt again. The Sun Belt and the CAA look like JMU's two realistic options to me. The big question will be whether JMU changes their tone next year if C-USA doesn't materialize.

[MplsBison]

A more realistic alignment would be sub Delaware for Marshall and add them to CUSA. Giving CUSA 10 schools as well. UD is actually closer to JMU than Marshall. Considering Navy is joining CUSA for football only they might as well add Army and have 12 teams.

Eastern Seaboard Athletic Conference - ESAC
App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison -Delaware
Liberty - Old Dominion

CUSA:
UAB - So. Miss
WKU - MTSU
Rice - North Texas
UTEP - UTSA
Louisiana Tech - Marshall
Army - Navy

Sun Belt:
South Alabama - Troy
Louisiana Monroe - Louisiana Lafayette
Texas St - Texas Arlington (no football)
Ark St - Ark Little Rock (no football)
Idaho (football only) - NM St (football only)

I like that better for the new conference, but it still feels like Marshall fits in better with the new conference. Or the AAC could add both Marshall and Army (football only) to get to 14 in football and 12 in all sports. That sounds right.

And as mentioned already, Navy is joining the American Athletic Conf (AAC) - which is basically the "old" CUSA band back together again (sans Louisville). So no need to have Navy and Army in the CUSA, plus they wouldn't leave the PL for non-football anyway.

Then the new CUSA could add Ark St to pair with LaTech and consider NM St and TX St for pairing with UTEP and UTSA respectively, or just stay at 10 and show the Sun Belt some mercy.

[MplsBison]

There's a difference between "turning down the Sun Belt" and waiting on the corner with your bags packed for a CUSA offer that will never come.

JMU isn't in a major media market. They have no chance for CUSA. They are going through the same thing App did two years later. It's Sun Belt or stay in the CAA.

Kinda interesting that some of Virginia's major public universities are in small towns, out in the middle of nowhere.

On the other hand, ODU, VCU and GMU are in the major population centers for Virginia and those schools have moved up.


Obviously no one is going to say that Virginia and VT are in bad places athletically, but it sure doesn't do any favors for JMU!

[Apphole]

Kinda interesting that some of Virginia's major public universities are in small towns, out in the middle of nowhere.

On the other hand, ODU, VCU and GMU are in the major population centers for Virginia and those schools have moved up.


Obviously no one is going to say that Virginia and VT are in bad places athletically, but it sure doesn't do any favors for JMU!

That's the difference between "back in the day" and "now-a-days." If App had forward thinking leadership and athletic prowess like we have now as soon as a decade earlier we could have been in a major BCS conference.

Capitalism ruined college football.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That's the difference between "back in the day" and "now-a-days." If App had forward thinking leadership and athletic prowess like we have now as soon as a decade earlier we could have been in a major BCS conference.

Capitalism ruined college football.

How so? If that was the case Marshall would be in the Big 10 or ACC.

It takes A LOT more than just a good football team to gain entry into the BCS conferences.

[MplsBison]

Capitalism...or TV?

[asumike83]

That's the difference between "back in the day" and "now-a-days." If App had forward thinking leadership and athletic prowess like we have now as soon as a decade earlier we could have been in a major BCS conference.

No question that App could be higher up the food chain but I think that if the move had been made 10-15 years ago, best case would probably be joining ECU in the Big East/AAC. Don't get me wrong, that would be great but no way the 800-pound gorilla in Chapel Hill is letting another school in the UNC system join the ACC. Ever. They loathe the idea of even sharing the conference with NC State.

[Saint3333]

Wouldn't CUSA add western members to balance out the conference?

Oh and then there's the profit sharing that all CUSA members would get a smaller piece of the pie if they added two more?

JMU - time to learn the lesson App learned last year. If you want FBS you might want to grab the last spot available.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wouldn't CUSA add western members to balance out the conference?

Oh and then there's the profit sharing that all CUSA members would get a smaller piece of the pie if they added two more?

JMU - time to learn the lesson App learned last year. If you want FBS you might want to grab the last spot available.

* Unless you're Old Dominion

[DFW HOYA]

CUSA:
UAB - So. Miss
WKU - MTSU
Rice - North Texas
UTEP - UTSA
Louisiana Tech


In the sad saga of college realignment, has any school been kicked to the curb more than Rice? No I-A school other than Stanford can match it academically, but athletically it is an afterthought.

Twenty seasons ago, Rice played in the late, great Southwest Conference, which was arguably a top 5 conference along with the Big 8--not as deep as the Big 10, Pac-10, or SEC, but certainly ahead of the ACC, Big East, MAC, and Big West. In 1993, Rice finished with a winning record at 6-5, but there were no Beef O'Brady's consolation bowls for 6-win teams then. The schedule featured an opener at Ohio State (lost, 34-7), but wins over Sam Houston, Tulane and Iowa State, and a 3-4 conference slate vs. Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor, SMU, Houston, Texas Tech, and TCU.

Fast forward to 2013, where the Owls' schedule now features Florida Atlantic, UAB, UTSA, North Texas, Louisiana Tech, Tulsa, and New Mexico State.

While fellow SWC castoffs like Houston and SMU found a home in the wayward AAC, and TCU did the near-impossible by earning a invitation to the Big 12, Rice was left behind, with its 72,000 seat stadium that now sells out about as much as the Yale Bowl does. And maybe in a few years, I don't know what would be stranger, watching James Madison at Rice Stadium, or the idea of Rice playing a conference game in Harrisonburg.

[MplsBison]

Well first of all, you might have an argument for Cincy and UConn as far as being left out of the elite conferences "unfairly". On the other hand, they were never there like Rice was in the SWC and then completely left behind.

I think of Rice about like Tulane. Both great academic schools that for whatever combination of reasons, perhaps just bad luck, were once right there with the elite athletic programs and now are nowhere near that level.


As far as academics and athletics go, Stanford and Northwestern are the obvious examples of the very tip top of the academic elite private schools who still strive for nationally competitive, BCS level football. You might be able to make a case for Duke as well. I don't think Vanderbilt is at that level as far as academics/research goes, but perhaps they are and then would also be there.


Nonetheless, there's absolutely no reason that Rice shouldn't be to the Big XII what Stanford is to the PAC, Northwestern is to the B1G, Duke is to the ACC and Vanderbilt is to the SEC. Neither Baylor nor TCU fit that bill. And I for one do wonder how it is that Baylor scored the invite to the Big 8 over Rice. Is it basically for no other reason than Baylor had more alumni politicians (law school?)?

(and that's of course not to dismiss other private schools like Vanderbilt, Boston College, Wake Forest, Southern California, Baylor and TCU - which to varying degrees are great academic schools themselves, but not at the level Stanford/Northwestern/Rice/Duke)

[Laker]

And I for one do wonder how it is that Baylor scored the invite to the Big 8 over Rice. Is it basically for no other reason than Baylor had more alumni politicians (law school?)?

Ask any TCU fan and they will give you a very heated argument (and buy you your favorite beverage if you agree with them) about Baylor getting picked over the Horned Frogs. I listened to a former player who told me at length about his hatred for the Bears.

[The Maestro]

unfortunately for rice there's a huge difference btw them and the stanfords, vandy's, and nwstrns of the world and that is the fact i believe their student body is less than 4,000 (though i guess wake has shown of late that you can be at least competitive at that size if everything falls right ). still, kids want a big time atmosphere around program and with so few students i'm not sure you can create the buzz kids want to feel

[Rabbit74]

[QUOTE=MplsBison;1976377. And I for one do wonder how it is that Baylor scored the invite to the Big 8 over Rice. Is it basically for no other reason than Baylor had more alumni politicians (law school?)?
)[/QUOTE]

My memory is that the governor of Texas at the time was a Baylor alum and "required" Baylor to be included with the Texas,A&M and tech

[DFW HOYA]

My memory is that the governor of Texas at the time was a Baylor alum and "required" Baylor to be included with the Texas,A&M and tech

That's an urban legend to some degree.

The story is that Texas and Texas A&M would not leave the Southwest Conference on its own, but that Governor Ann Richards (Baylor) and Lt. Gov. Bob Bullock (Texas Tech) would support their schools joining. It probably didn't hurt, but, in fact, Richards was not that closely tied to Baylor and the Big 8 needed four schools for TV purposes. Tech and Baylor were probably better choices over an awful SMU team (post-death penalty), Rice, a TCU program that was as bad as Rice, and Houston. The thinking was that the Dallas and Houston markets did not need a school of its own because the Texas and Texas A&M fan bases were large enough on its own.

[AppMan]

Navy is joining the AAC.

Brain freeze! I knew that. As Emily Litella would say... Never Mind.

A more realistic alignment would be sub Delaware for Marshall and add them to CUSA. Giving CUSA 10 schools as well. UD is actually closer to JMU than Marshall. Considering Navy is joining CUSA for football only they might as well add Army and have 12 teams.

Eastern Seaboard Athletic Conference - ESAC
App State - Charlotte
FIU - FAU
Georgia State - Georgia Southern
James Madison -Delaware
Liberty - Old Dominion

CUSA:
UAB - So. Miss
WKU - MTSU
Rice - North Texas
UTEP - UTSA
Louisiana Tech - Marshall

Sun Belt:
South Alabama - Troy
Louisiana Monroe - Louisiana Lafayette
Texas St - Texas Arlington (no football)
Ark St - Ark Little Rock (no football)
Idaho (football only) - NM St (football only)

Fixed it!

[AppMan]

In the sad saga of college realignment, has any school been kicked to the curb more than Rice? No I-A school other than Stanford can match it academically, but athletically it is an afterthought.

Twenty seasons ago, Rice played in the late, great Southwest Conference, which was arguably a top 5 conference along with the Big 8--not as deep as the Big 10, Pac-10, or SEC, but certainly ahead of the ACC, Big East, MAC, and Big West. In 1993, Rice finished with a winning record at 6-5, but there were no Beef O'Brady's consolation bowls for 6-win teams then. The schedule featured an opener at Ohio State (lost, 34-7), but wins over Sam Houston, Tulane and Iowa State, and a 3-4 conference slate vs. Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor, SMU, Houston, Texas Tech, and TCU.

Fast forward to 2013, where the Owls' schedule now features Florida Atlantic, UAB, UTSA, North Texas, Louisiana Tech, Tulsa, and New Mexico State.

While fellow SWC castoffs like Houston and SMU found a home in the wayward AAC, and TCU did the near-impossible by earning a invitation to the Big 12, Rice was left behind, with its 72,000 seat stadium that now sells out about as much as the Yale Bowl does. And maybe in a few years, I don't know what would be stranger, watching James Madison at Rice Stadium, or the idea of Rice playing a conference game in Harrisonburg.

Such is life in college athletics. A one time Sewanee College was power house football program who became a charter member of the SEC. Their 1899 team is one of legend. Today they are a trivia question.

[chargeradio]

I just don't see C-USA taking any more teams unless the AAC has openings. If the Big 12 went to 12 with 2 AAC schools, there might only be one opening created if the AAC lands another football only member. As long as Charlotte and ODU are far enough along in the transition to count towards the 12 required for a championship game, there is no need to backfill to 14 members.

If the Big 12 goes to 14 and takes BYU and 3 from the AAC, then it will be time to reload. Even then, there could only be one opening if the American takes Army for football only and adds UMass as a full member. If the AAC only needs 1 from C-USA, it could very well be Old Dominion-although UTEP, WKU, MTSU, and UAB would probably get a look as well.

West:
UTEP/North Texas
Rice/UTSA
Louisiana Tech/Southern Miss
UAB

East:
Old Dominion/James Madison
Western Kentucky/Middle Tennessee
Florida Atlantic/Florida International
Charlotte

If BYU turns down the Big 12 and the Big 12 takes another AAC school, C-USA likely goes after Arkansas State or Missouri State.

If the Big 12 takes UCF and USF, the AAC is coming after FAU and FIU. That probably means UMass is football only and Army remains independent. C-USA wouldn't need to do anything unless if they really wanted 14 for all sports:

West:
UTEP/North Texas
Rice/UTSA
Louisiana Tech/Southern Miss

East:
Old Dominion/Marshall
Western Kentucky/Middle Tennessee
UAB/Charlotte

James Madison would need one more opening in the above scenario-such as BYU turning down the Big 12 and the Big 12 taking another AAC school.

[Saint3333]

There is no incentive for Go5 conferences to be at 14 any longer. CUSA went to 14 to protect themselves. CUSA would need to lose 3 members before adding 1 now.

Not likely.

Now even if they do it will be 1-2 years down the line and at that time would pick ULL, Ark St., and Texas St. over JMU. JMU's best shot at CUSA would have been to join the Sun Belt, hope it takes 3 years before CUSA needs another member and prove themselves at the FBS level during that time.

[Sly Fox]

Wow! A thread about JMU turns into a SWC history lesson. And DFW Hoya, Richards & Bullock did exercise their considerable influence in the process. While you mentioned why schools like TCU & Rice were overlooked, you conveniently left out the school that made the most sense at the time in UH. The Texas Legislature held the considerable purse strings for both UT and A&M and key lawmakers used their influence to make sure it was Tech (whose athletic program was horrible in the Early '90s) & Baylor who found their way into the mix for the merger.

As for JMU, the Sun Belt presidents seem enamored by the the Dukes. A recent article from Alabama even referenced a Sun Belt president raving about JMU delivering the DC market. Seriously. As a Liberty alum I am admittedly jealous. We have the resources that JMU lacks and we desperately want to get one of the final FBS invitations and the Sun Belt presidents won't consider us because of our history. If the Dukes don't find a way to get something done soon, it may not happen again for a long time. Dare I even mention the possibility of another moratorium?

[Sly Fox]

Oh, and it is a bit of a slap in the face to Rice to compare their academic reputation to Northwestern & Vandy. Both are good schools but on the level of Rice. Ditto for Wake. Rice doesn't have a small student body because it can't attract more students.

[Longhorn]

JMU is a long ways out. Bottom line is they don't have the money and can't raise what are already some of the highest student fees in the country. Fundraising for the stadium fell woefully short and the only way they got it done was by selling bonds. The administration's priority is figuring out how to build a new basketball arena (at an estimated $60 mil) not CUSA. Some longtime JMU supporters I know are very discouraged right now. They see JMU stuck in the CAA for the foreseeable future.

You obviously don't know a damn thing about JMU's athletic budget, nor how JMU funded the expansion to Bridgeforth, or the scale of JMU's projected funding for a new basketball arena, nor what JMU's main priorities are moving forward.

For starters, JMU annual athletic budget is in excess of $32 million (and growing)...which makes it nearly 40% higher than ASU's total athletic budget (and higher than most of the school's playing FB in the CSUA, MAC and the SBC)...so $$ is not the primary issue JMU is weighing with regards to FBS reclassification. Nor did fundraising fall "woefully short" in building Bridgeforth. The expansion of Bridgeforth was planned as a bonded project from the very beginning (around $62 mil), with fundraising playing almost zero role in the stadium's construction. As for current fundraising, all elite club seating and 16 sky boxes in Bridgeforth are sold for the 2013 season, Duke Club annual fundraising has set all time records each of the past two years, and attendance since the expanded stadium opened speaks for itself. Regarding JMU's plan to build a new basketball arena, that too is a bonded project...at $89 million (not $60m), and the bonds have been approved at all necessary levels needed to green light the project (JMU's BOV and the VA General Assembly). JMU is now simply waiting in a state-wide queue with other major capital projects for the bonds to be authorized for issue. As for JMU's priorities, faculty salaries are at the top of the list, but again, that issue won't be the major determinant on whether JMU makes the move to FBS.

About the only thing you've written that bears any semblance of truth is that there are many vocal JMU fans/supporters (both of long term and short term nature) who are discouraged about the possibilities of moving to FBS. Yet, there are at least an equal number of JMU fans who are fine with where JMU is positioned, and enjoy our rivals in the CAA. The consultants report initiated by JMU to advise it on the possibilities of moving to FBS is due in September, and I think the odds are good that JMU's administration won't make a public decision about the consultant's recommendations until the Spring of 2014. This will no doubt drive some JMU faithful bonkers...but that's their prerogative. They can express themselves however they want...as can we all. But if you don't want to come off as a complete a**hat for spewing misinformation about JMU I'd suggest you do more research before writing.

[bulldog]

that's just it: the schools don't care about the playoffs.

and you and i are on the same page about something else. a FAIR playoff (4 teams is not "fair", 4 teams = 2 SEC teams and 2 other BCS teams) may not happen for a long time. i can't tell you how many delusional JMU fans there are, which is why I've stopped visiting that message board. they think in 5 years it's going to open up to 16 teams. could it happen? i guess. i wouldn't bet on it, though.

after the BCS splits, we would have "moved up" to still be in the second best division, except with NO playoffs, and quite possibly the same amount of media attention. woo!!!

and then there are people that think we can move up to the 2nd tier, THEN move up to the BCS. "how can we be in position to move up without taking the next step?" maybe they're right, i don't know. but what they're not considering is that we could be in the EXACT same position we are now, except without any kind of realistic shot at making the playoffs. how is that better?

also, i think anyone that cites "my friends don't care about JMU football" or "ESPN never talks about JMU" as a reason to move up needs to work on their self-esteem. why do people need to have their friends care about everything they do? my friends don't care about JMU but you don't see me crying about it.

tired of arguing with these JMU fans. stepping off soap box now.

That argument is f&%king riduculous! You only grow if you take steps to do that. Hanging around playing the likes of Rhode Island and Central Connecticut is STUPID for a school like JMU, with a fan base that packs a 25,000-seat stadium, even for crappy opponents. We will never be invited to a BCS conference from the CAA. However, from a more respectable platform, like CUSA or MAC, and a decent performance record, it is not only possible, but likely. One thing is certain, until we make that move, we are destined to a future of frustration. If we don't move up then we should move down. Let's clobber Bridgewater and W&L and beat our chests and strut around in prideful supremacy. Yeah, that's the ticket. xrotatehx

[Twentysix]

That argument is f&%king riduculous! You only grow if you take steps to do that. Hanging around playing the likes of Rhode Island and Central Connecticut is STUPID for a school like JMU, with a fan base that packs a 25,000-seat stadium, even for crappy opponents. We will never be invited to a BCS conference from the CAA. However, from a more respectable platform, like CUSA or MAC, and a decent performance record, it is not only possible, but likely. One thing is certain, until we make that move, we are destined to a future of frustration. If we don't move up then we should move down. Let's clobber Bridgewater and W&L and beat our chests and strut around in prideful supremacy. Yeah, that's the ticket. xrotatehx

BCS has an academic counterpart that JMU lacks... it's only kind of about football.

[Saint3333]

I don't claim to know the situation at JMU, but they don't have a great ROI on their investment if their budget is 32M.

84% of your budget is from student fees, that isn't a good thing.

I do hope they wake up and join the Sun Belt if they want to go FBS. They may look back in 10 years and wish they had.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We will never be invited to a BCS conference from the CAA. However, from a more respectable platform, like CUSA or MAC, and a decent performance record, it is not only possible, but likely.


That argument is f&%king riduculous!

xlolx

Good luck achieving what Boise State, UConn and Marshall have all not achieved, nor are they likely to achieve.

[MplsBison]

Oh, and it is a bit of a slap in the face to Rice to compare their academic reputation to Northwestern & Vandy. Both are good schools but on the level of Rice. Ditto for Wake. Rice doesn't have a small student body because it can't attract more students.

The NSF has just recently released the FY11 research expenditure data tables.

I think this is a good one, which ranks institutions on non-medical research expenditures (while also showing medical research, if any): http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13325/pdf/tab21.pdf

Rice doesn't have any medical research (or a law school...or an undergraduate business school....) but even so, they're still not even ranked in the top 100 for non-medical research.

Of course research isn't the only measure of academics, but it is an important one.


So I'm curious to know in what way do you think you're justified in putting rice above a school like Northwestern (and I assume Duke as well)?

[MplsBison]

You obviously don't know a damn thing about JMU's athletic budget, nor how JMU funded the expansion to Bridgeforth, or the scale of JMU's projected funding for a new basketball arena, nor what JMU's main priorities are moving forward.

For starters, JMU annual athletic budget is in excess of $32 million (and growing)...which makes it nearly 40% higher than ASU's total athletic budget (and higher than most of the school's playing FB in the CSUA, MAC and the SBC)...so $$ is not the primary issue JMU is weighing with regards to FBS reclassification. Nor did fundraising fall "woefully short" in building Bridgeforth. The expansion of Bridgeforth was planned as a bonded project from the very beginning (around $62 mil), with fundraising playing almost zero role in the stadium's construction. As for current fundraising, all elite club seating and 16 sky boxes in Bridgeforth are sold for the 2013 season, Duke Club annual fundraising has set all time records each of the past two years, and attendance since the expanded stadium opened speaks for itself. Regarding JMU's plan to build a new basketball arena, that too is a bonded project...at $89 million (not $60m), and the bonds have been approved at all necessary levels needed to green light the project (JMU's BOV and the VA General Assembly). JMU is now simply waiting in a state-wide queue with other major capital projects for the bonds to be authorized for issue. As for JMU's priorities, faculty salaries are at the top of the list, but again, that issue won't be the major determinant on whether JMU makes the move to FBS.

About the only thing you've written that bears any semblance of truth is that there are many vocal JMU fans/supporters (both of long term and short term nature) who are discouraged about the possibilities of moving to FBS. Yet, there are at least an equal number of JMU fans who are fine with where JMU is positioned, and enjoy our rivals in the CAA. The consultants report initiated by JMU to advise it on the possibilities of moving to FBS is due in September, and I think the odds are good that JMU's administration won't make a public decision about the consultant's recommendations until the Spring of 2014. This will no doubt drive some JMU faithful bonkers...but that's their prerogative. They can express themselves however they want...as can we all. But if you don't want to come off as a complete a**hat for spewing misinformation about JMU I'd suggest you do more research before writing.

Excellent post! Thanks for sharing.

I'm hopeful that JMU will get one of the last FBS invitations that will be given out this generation, if that's what your school's administration ultimately decides that it wants.

[MplsBison]

I don't claim to know the situation at JMU, but they don't have a great ROI on their investment if their budget is 32M.

84% of your budget is from student fees, that isn't a good thing.

I do hope they wake up and join the Sun Belt if they want to go FBS. They may look back in 10 years and wish they had.

According to the OPE website, JMU's football budget was 6.6M and men's & women's bball were 2.2M and 2.1M each. Combined with the rest of sports expenses, they spent about 20M on teams.

Then there's another line for "Not allocated by gender/sport" and for JMU this line is 14M, for a grand total of 34M budget!


I'd be curious to know what goes in that last line.


(FWIW, NDSU's numbers are: Football 3.6M, men's/women's bball about 1M each, total sports 10M, not allocated 6M, grand total 16M)

What are expenses at JMU so much?? Coaching salaries? Is tuition sky high there? Travel?

[smallcollegefbfan]

That's the difference between "back in the day" and "now-a-days." If App had forward thinking leadership and athletic prowess like we have now as soon as a decade earlier we could have been in a major BCS conference.

Capitalism ruined college football.

Capitalism is what made football great. It's what drives universities to be the best.

You can purely blame Roachel Laney for not being in FBS now. App never has and never will be with the big boys (BCS) but they clearly belong in FBS. They never have had the donors and resources overall to be in the SEC but they should clearly be FBS and have the potential to do well, maybe become like Boise State or TCU in that they find themselves ranked in the top 25.

App outgrew their cage in FCS. App should never lose to anyone but GSU in the SoCon and I think they had gotten to a point where their growth was being stunted. The only thing that can hurt App is if they don't have enough money. All former players and alumni need to give, same with GSU, to help make sure they are funded because most programs who move up and struggle do so because they have to let other sports suffer just to stay afloat.

If App handles things right financially and treats the fans well they should do fine. If App is not contending for a Sun Belt title by 2016 in terms of having the talent then I would be surprised. They have always had good athletes and now are getting 22 more.

App is a desirable place to be and has done a good job of finding talent but just needs to show they can raise the money to do well at the next level.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Excellent post! Thanks for sharing.

I'm hopeful that JMU will get one of the last FBS invitations that will be given out this generation, if that's what your school's administration ultimately decides that it wants.

JMU belongs. If they do go FBS then I will be interested to see what happens in recruiting in the southeast and east coast for FCS programs. App State, GSU, Ga State, ODU, JMU, Charlotte, etc are all programs who have either done well in recruiting or they are in a prime area to get a lot of talent or take recruits away from many current FCS programs. It will be interesting to see how it all goes. I'm pulling for JMU to make the move because it would be good for them and they would be a great rival for ODU, App, GSU, etc. to play regularly. That stadium is beautiful and it's a great school!

[AppMan]

You obviously don't know a damn thing about JMU's athletic budget, nor how JMU funded the expansion to Bridgeforth, or the scale of JMU's projected funding for a new basketball arena, nor what JMU's main priorities are moving forward.

For starters, JMU annual athletic budget is in excess of $32 million (and growing)...which makes it nearly 40% higher than ASU's total athletic budget (and higher than most of the school's playing FB in the CSUA, MAC and the SBC)...so $$ is not the primary issue JMU is weighing with regards to FBS reclassification. Nor did fundraising fall "woefully short" in building Bridgeforth. The expansion of Bridgeforth was planned as a bonded project from the very beginning (around $62 mil), with fundraising playing almost zero role in the stadium's construction. As for current fundraising, all elite club seating and 16 sky boxes in Bridgeforth are sold for the 2013 season, Duke Club annual fundraising has set all time records each of the past two years, and attendance since the expanded stadium opened speaks for itself. Regarding JMU's plan to build a new basketball arena, that too is a bonded project...at $89 million (not $60m), and the bonds have been approved at all necessary levels needed to green light the project (JMU's BOV and the VA General Assembly). JMU is now simply waiting in a state-wide queue with other major capital projects for the bonds to be authorized for issue. As for JMU's priorities, faculty salaries are at the top of the list, but again, that issue won't be the major determinant on whether JMU makes the move to FBS.

About the only thing you've written that bears any semblance of truth is that there are many vocal JMU fans/supporters (both of long term and short term nature) who are discouraged about the possibilities of moving to FBS. Yet, there are at least an equal number of JMU fans who are fine with where JMU is positioned, and enjoy our rivals in the CAA. The consultants report initiated by JMU to advise it on the possibilities of moving to FBS is due in September, and I think the odds are good that JMU's administration won't make a public decision about the consultant's recommendations until the Spring of 2014. This will no doubt drive some JMU faithful bonkers...but that's their prerogative. They can express themselves however they want...as can we all. But if you don't want to come off as a complete a**hat for spewing misinformation about JMU I'd suggest you do more research before writing.

I know more than you can imagine. My comments are based on what I was told by a long time Duke Club member and their contacts inside JMU's administration. I could care less if you believe it.

I wouldn't brag too much about that $32 million dollar budget. ASU funds 1 more sport than JMU on a budget of $15 million (in 2012 as an FCS program). I seriously doubt you guys spend $15 million in increased travel and salaries than App. So where is that money going? Our Yosef Club raises over a million more in athletic scholarships than the Duke Club. We don't fund all our scholarships, so I know JMU isn't footing the entire scholarship bill through the Duke Club. It is apparent some of that $32 mil is going to fund scholarships, but that is a relatively small amount. Common sense tells you the remaining portion has to be debt retirement. Knowing that 83% of that $32 million already comes from student fees please explain how JMU is going to finance 22 additional football grants and the necessary Title IX scholarships? Not to mention increased travel to CUSA. MAC or SunBelt schools. The increased revenues from being in a FBS league won't completely cover those additional costs.

Major gifts for capital projects like a stadium expansion are secured long before it is announced. The only reason to bond such a project is because those advance donations didn't meet expectations. Selling leases for suites and club seating is not a donation. Someone giving $25,000 dollars for the naming rights to a suite is different, but that didn't happen.

So.... JMU has an athletic department that relies on student fees for 83% of its funding. They can not / will not increase that burden on their students to go FBS. Their scholarship club doesn't raise anywhere close to the amount needed to fully fund scholarships at the FCS level, forget at the FBS level. Increased revenues at the FBS level are not nearly enough to offset the increased costs. JMU relies on bonds to fund major facility improvements.

Use your brain cowboy. JMU is not in a position to make the move to FBS in the foreseeable future. Do you seriously think your new President is going to try fight that battle anytime soon?

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

it appears that JMU athletics is a cluster #####, a chancellor who wants to cut back athletics, and way too much funding raised by student fees. I think they are stucked in the CAA for a long, long time...I know things can changed quickly change, but at this moment, it appears they are royally screwed!!

[Longhorn]

I know more than you can imagine. My comments are based on what I was told by a long time Duke Club member and their contacts inside JMU's administration. I could care less if you believe it.

I wouldn't brag too much about that $32 million dollar budget. ASU funds 1 more sport than JMU on a budget of $15 million (in 2012 as an FCS program). I seriously doubt you guys spend $15 million in increased travel and salaries than App. So where is that money going? Our Yosef Club raises over a million more in athletic scholarships than the Duke Club. We don't fund all our scholarships, so I know JMU isn't footing the entire scholarship bill through the Duke Club. It is apparent some of that $32 mil is going to fund scholarships, but that is a relatively small amount. Common sense tells you the remaining portion has to be debt retirement. Knowing that 83% of that $32 million already comes from student fees please explain how JMU is going to finance 22 additional football grants and the necessary Title IX scholarships? Not to mention increased travel to CUSA. MAC or SunBelt schools. The increased revenues from being in a FBS league won't completely cover those additional costs.

Major gifts for capital projects like a stadium expansion are secured long before it is announced. The only reason to bond such a project is because those advance donations didn't meet expectations. Selling leases for suites and club seating is not a donation. Someone giving $25,000 dollars for the naming rights to a suite is different, but that didn't happen.

So.... JMU has an athletic department that relies on student fees for 83% of its funding. They can not / will not increase that burden on their students to go FBS. Their scholarship club doesn't raise anywhere close to the amount needed to fully fund scholarships at the FCS level, forget at the FBS level. Increased revenues at the FBS level are not nearly enough to offset the increased costs. JMU relies on bonds to fund major facility improvements.

Use your brain cowboy. JMU is not in a position to make the move to FBS in the foreseeable future. Do you seriously think your new President is going to try fight that battle anytime soon?

Sorry my "friend"...but plain and simple you're wrong about how JMU stadium funded their stadium expansion, and if your sole source is a single "long time Duke Club member" about where JMU is positioned vis-a-vis FBS reclassification, or what JMU's options are regarding such a move, you're blowing smoke up your own skirt. For the record I'm also a "long time Duke Club member"...and have been directly and deeply involved in JMU's inner workings for DECADES. You can rely on your one source, but again, we both know you've got a personal hair up your ass for trying to spin things in a negative light regarding JMU's FBS prospects. Perhaps that last loss to JMU is still stinging?

You are absolutely correct that student fees pay for about 83% of JMU's varsity athletic program, but the issue of JMU being able to raise those fees (or not) is a red herring of an argument. JMU's tuition is one of the lowest in VA, and when combined with other costs, places JMU smack in the middle of all VA universities when comparing costs of attending college. So, bottom line, there is room to raise both tuition and fees, but how JMU chooses to do that will be tempered by other factors, not just a decision regarding FBS FB. As for future fundraising, your outsider view of what the Duke Club has accomplished (and is capable of producing) with regards to fundraising is laughable. The Duke Club has set records each year for the past several years in the monies it has raised, and with a rapidly growing alumni base of 110,000+ the future is extraordinarily bright for continued fundraising. Additionally, you don't have to raise student fees to generate more income when the student body is still growing. JMU enrollment is just at 20k now, and has plans to increase that to around 23k+. Those 3,000 additional students contributing to the varsity athletic program represent far more than the sum needed to support an FBS move, but combined with increased Duke Club $$, and increased revenue from FBS OOC games and increased home field attendance, there is more than enough $$ in the hopper to do whatever the heck JMU wants to do. The question remains what is in JMU's best interests?

[Longhorn]

I don't claim to know the situation at JMU, but they don't have a great ROI on their investment if their budget is 32M.

84% of your budget is from student fees, that isn't a good thing.

I do hope they wake up and join the Sun Belt if they want to go FBS. They may look back in 10 years and wish they had.

ROI? What the hell are you talking about? Attendance increased at JMU games from a bit over 15k to over 23k (the avg. of the last two seasons). Duke Club contributions set new records since the stadium opened. Interest in JMU has never been higher (nearly 25k applications to enroll). ROI? Those are pretty impressive returns if you ask me. In terms of actual $$...you do realize that there are only 28 or so FBS programs in the entire country that actually make money from their athletic programs? Schools like Texas, Ohio State and such? Yes, JMU's athletic program is heavily dependent on student fees, and that VERY stable fee structure has allowed jMU to build great facilities and grow it's varsity athletic programs while operating in the black. All schools should have such a "ROI".

[danefan]

ROI? What the hell are you talking about? Attendance increased at JMU games from a bit over 15k to over 23k (the avg. of the last two seasons). Duke Club contributions set new records since the stadium opened. Interest in JMU has never been higher (nearly 25k applications to enroll). ROI? Those are pretty impressive returns if you ask me. In terms of actual $$...you do realize that there are only 28 or so FBS programs in the entire country that actually make money from their athletic programs? Schools like Texas, Ohio State and such? Yes, JMU's athletic program is heavily dependent on student fees, and that VERY stable fee structure has allowed jMU to build great facilities and grow it's varsity athletic programs while operating in the black. All schools should have such a "ROI".

Student fees and bond issuances are much better than sitting around waiting for politicians to decide how much money you get, which is what we in NY live with.

[Longhorn]

it appears that JMU athletics is a cluster #####, a chancellor who wants to cut back athletics, and way too much funding raised by student fees. I think they are stucked in the CAA for a long, long time...I know things can changed quickly change, but at this moment, it appears they are royally screwed!!

JMU is run by a Chancellor? Gosh...I didn't know JMU was run by a "Chancellor"...and one who wants to cut back on athletics to boot, all because student fees generate too much money.

Mountaineer, as soon as I find this "Chancellor" you speak of (or, if you see him first please give me a shout out) and I'll set him straight, okay? We JMU fans can't let some individual named "Chancellor" ruin JMU's chances at FBS FB.

In the meantime, I'll let JMU's new President (who happens to be a sports fan) run the day-to-day operations.

[Longhorn]

Student fees and bond issuances are much better than sitting around waiting for politicians to decide how much money you get, which is what we in NY live with.

I agree. Unfortunately, that option or opportunity doesn't exist at many other schools, so the advantages are not well understood.

Look forward to playing Albany this year in H'Burg, and hope you can make the game!

[Saint3333]

Budget spend does not indicate as increase is growth of attendance or donations. Even if it did JMU's ROI on $30M spend for $2M in donations would be far less than App's $16M budget and we raise over $3M in donation.

What I actually meant for returns on the field:

Mickey the mouth underperforms each season, average RPI of 188 in basketball over the last 5 years, baseball not good either.

$30M+ spent and those are the results, that is what I mean by bad ROI.

App spends half that, generates twice as much internal revenue and on the field is more successful. ROI much greater than JMU's.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Budget spend does not indicate as increase is growth of attendance or donations. Even if it did JMU's ROI on $30M spend for $2M in donations would be far less than App's $16M budget and we raise over $3M in donation.

What I actually meant for returns on the field:

Mickey the mouth underperforms each season, average RPI of 188 in basketball over the last 5 years, baseball not good either.

And yet they have one more NCAA b-ball tournament appearance than App.

[MplsBison]

Longhorn, excellent posts! Thanks for setting the record straight.

I'm curious if you can shed some light on something for me. Why are JMU's athletics budgets so high??

They're basically double in everything from NDSU!


So I went to each school's basic .edu website to look at fixed costs. (and by fixed costs I'm talking about only those which a student must pay, no matter what - tuition and fees. Housing, food, even books can arguably be avoided as payments to the school depending on the situation)

NDSU (from http://www.ndsu.edu/admission/cost_tuition/cost/)
Fees: $1204 (also a new student fee of $120)
Full-time undergrad yearly tuition: ND resident - $6336, MN resident - $7097, Exchange states - $9504, Nonresident - $16918
(Exchange states: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Manitoba, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Saskatchewan, South Dakota, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming)

JMU (from http://www.jmu.edu/ubo/rates/2013-14.shtml)
Fees: not listed, possibly just included as tuition (new student fee of $180)
Full-time undergrad yearly tuition: VA resident - $9176, Nonresident - $23654


So I guess that might explain some of the increase, if JMU has many non-VA resident athletes (which I'm assuming isn't really the case).

But I still don't get how they're at DOUBLE the budget of NDSU. I don't think it's head coaching salaries, I'm pretty sure Bohl makes one of the highest in FCS (deservedly so).


Any thoughts?

[MplsBison]

I wish there was some way, at least for public schools, how people could look at every line item in the athletics department budgets.

I would love to know how JMU spends between $6-7M on football while NDSU only spends between $3-4M. I bet the VA taxpayers and JMU alumni would like to know as well!

[Saint3333]

And yet they have one more NCAA b-ball tournament appearance than App.

Cherry pick much?

Spend 20M more, have a worse football program, a much worse baseball program, and 1 16 seed appearance in an NCAA. Does that sum it up well enough for you.

Get a hobby.

[ASUMountaineer]

Cherry pick much?

Spend 20M more, have a worse football program, a much worse baseball program, and 1 16 seed appearance in an NCAA. Does that sum it up well enough for you.

Get a hobby.

He has one: App State.

[PhillyApp1]

And yet they have one more NCAA b-ball tournament appearance than App.

You are correct about App basketball, its been a challenge but I will bet on our future versus JMU's basketball future xsmiley_wix


Did you visit Mr. Liacouras? praying he is doing ok.

Now, on to your jealous, rather funny, posts about App State.....they make you look like I have always said you are "not an educated graduate of Lehigh" but GO ON ! xlolx

[AppMan]

Sorry my "friend"...but plain and simple you're wrong about how JMU stadium funded their stadium expansion, and if your sole source is a single "long time Duke Club member" about where JMU is positioned vis-a-vis FBS reclassification, or what JMU's options are regarding such a move, you're blowing smoke up your own skirt. For the record I'm also a "long time Duke Club member"...and have been directly and deeply involved in JMU's inner workings for DECADES. You can rely on your one source, but again, we both know you've got a personal hair up your ass for trying to spin things in a negative light regarding JMU's FBS prospects. Perhaps that last loss to JMU is still stinging?

You are absolutely correct that student fees pay for about 83% of JMU's varsity athletic program, but the issue of JMU being able to raise those fees (or not) is a red herring of an argument. JMU's tuition is one of the lowest in VA, and when combined with other costs, places JMU smack in the middle of all VA universities when comparing costs of attending college. So, bottom line, there is room to raise both tuition and fees, but how JMU chooses to do that will be tempered by other factors, not just a decision regarding FBS FB. As for future fundraising, your outsider view of what the Duke Club has accomplished (and is capable of producing) with regards to fundraising is laughable. The Duke Club has set records each year for the past several years in the monies it has raised, and with a rapidly growing alumni base of 110,000+ the future is extraordinarily bright for continued fundraising. Additionally, you don't have to raise student fees to generate more income when the student body is still growing. JMU enrollment is just at 20k now, and has plans to increase that to around 23k+. Those 3,000 additional students contributing to the varsity athletic program represent far more than the sum needed to support an FBS move, but combined with increased Duke Club $$, and increased revenue from FBS OOC games and increased home field attendance, there is more than enough $$ in the hopper to do whatever the heck JMU wants to do. The question remains what is in JMU's best interests?

Whatever you say. I'll still take my guy's (former JMU Athletic Advisory Council member and Duke Club Chapter Rep) word for it. I don't know where you got the idea I have a personal agenda against JMU. I've been very vocal about wanting to see our schools move up together. JMU has this opinion they have several "options" (Jeff Bourne's words) but as I've told my friend those options are worthless without an offer. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens in regards to JMU's "best interests" and FBS aspirations. If money is not an issue then you guys should have no problem finding a FBS home.

The JMU website lists undergrad enrollment at 18,107. I took a quick look at Virginia public universities in state tuition & fees (based on 12 semester hours): ODU $285, VCU $340, Radford $374, JMU $382, VaTech $400. I doubt our "last loss" to JMU stings quite as bad as JMU's last loss to App. :>) Since you have been "directly and deeply involved in JMU's inner workings for DECADES" I'm sure you can answer a question. Did someone just leave the Duke Club to take a similar position in Texas?

[JMU2004]

Whatever you say. I'll still take my guy's (former JMU Athletic Advisory Council member and Duke Club Chapter Rep) word for it. I don't know where you got the idea I have a personal agenda against JMU. I've been very vocal about wanting to see our schools move up together. JMU has this opinion they have several "options" (Jeff Bourne's words) but as I've told my friend those options are worthless without an offer. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what happens in regards to JMU's "best interests" and FBS aspirations. If money is not an issue then you guys should have no problem finding a FBS home.

The JMU website lists undergrad enrollment at 18,107. I took a quick look at Virginia public universities in state tuition & fees (based on 12 semester hours): ODU $285, VCU $340, Radford $374, JMU $382, VaTech $400. I doubt our "last loss" to JMU stings quite as bad as JMU's last loss to App. :>) Since you have been "directly and deeply involved in JMU's inner workings for DECADES" I'm sure you can answer a question. Did someone just leave the Duke Club to take a similar position in Texas?

Yea, we lost an Associate Director of the Duke Club to UTSA, where he will DIRECT the roadrunner club. At this point in his career, it was a no brainer move from him.

You should also be aware that Longhorn is a longtime professor at JMU. I would say tenured, but I am not positive on that.

[MplsBison]

AppMan, all I'm going to say is...would you take kindly to an internet poster whose username was dedicated to another school making authoritative proclamations on your school?

Saying that "your friend says..." doesn't make it right for you to proclaim it here.

[AppMan]

AppMan, all I'm going to say is...would you take kindly to an internet poster whose username was dedicated to another school making authoritative proclamations on your school?

Saying that "your friend says..." doesn't make it right for you to proclaim it here.

I understand where he is coming from and appreciate his passion. I don't appreciate the cheap shots and it is especially disturbing to know a "long time professor" at JMU would react in such a manner. If something was said about App I knew was wrong I would correct it and provide as much documentation as possible. But I certainly wouldn't start by attacking the person right out of the box and basically call them an idiot.

This is a message board and everything not backed up by an official release is open for debate. For you to say I was "proclaiming it" is a tad misleading. Longhorn has told us what he thinks to be true, but until he supports it with documentation who is to say he is right and my friend is wrong? I'm not going to take his word for it just because he is a professor. I know those folks don't like to admit it, but they can be wrong from time to time. Personally I'd like to see him provide some official statement stating they achieved their private giving goals before starting the stadium. I've searched high and low and can't find anything official as to how the stadium was financed. If he is so close with the administration that info should not be too hard to get a hand on.

Those who know me understand I don't post things unless I have researched them thoroughly. I don't simply go what I've been told by a friend of someone who knows someone. Just talked to my friend a few moments ago. He is sticking by his guns. Said JMU's goal was to raise $8-9 million in private donations and they didn't come close. To get the project going they had to fold that money into student fess and bonds. The info came straight out someplace he called Alumni Hall (don't know if I spelled that right or not). Maybe he is off base, but he has never been before. If proven wrong I'll gladly admit it and move on. I don't hold grudges and I certainly don't have an agenda against JMU. Heck, because of my friend I have come to like JMU and pull for them. It was my hope they could make the move along with us.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

But I still don't get how they're at DOUBLE the budget of NDSU. I don't think it's head coaching salaries, I'm pretty sure Bohl makes one of the highest in FCS (deservedly so).


Any thoughts?

I wish I had the quick and easy answer. I don't. But I remember from years of talk and bulletin board discussions about this sort of thing that different states handle the finances differently, including how they are reported. In other words, we essentially may not be comparing apples to apples. Someone who has crunched the numbers more and has researched these discrepancies among institutions could give you a clearer answer regarding the point I am very poorly trying to make without a specific example.

Meanwhile, I have enjoyed viewing the back and forth between Longhorn and AppMan. It could just as easily be any two other jmu fans having the same debate. It gets old on our boards, but I find it somehow refreshing over here on AGS. Bizarre.

[MplsBison]

JMU2K,

I think I understand your point...but the magnitude of the discrepancy still doesn't work, in my mind.

$3 million dollars more than NDSU, which is already spending 3 and half million and winning the national championship?


How? On what are they spending all this extra cash??

It would be one thing if they simply put a bunch of extra money in the "Not allocated by gender/sport" line - but no, they say they're spending six and a half million dollars on football.

[heath]

JMU2K,

I think I understand your point...but the magnitude of the discrepancy still doesn't work, in my mind.

$3 million dollars more than NDSU, which is already spending 3 and half million and winning the national championship?


How? On what are they spending all this extra cash??

It would be one thing if they simply put a bunch of extra money in the "Not allocated by gender/sport" line - but no, they say they're spending six and a half million dollars on football.

JMU is following the Obama stimulus plan.xnodx The extra money will be used towards the OTHER side of the stadium,and help moving up to FBS. The reason you do not understand is,................your school has no desire to move up and take on the higher level.Then again,why should NDSU move up?You're the only gig in town and the rest of the 49 states could careless.xthumbsupx

[UNHWildcat18]

So if JMU leaves for FBS who would ultimately replace them in the CAA....? if anyone

[danefan]

So if JMU leaves for FBS who would ultimately replace them in the CAA....? if anyone

Furman and Wofford...........

[NoDak 4 Ever]

So if JMU leaves for FBS who would ultimately replace them in the CAA....? if anyone

Youngstown.

[ccd494]

So if JMU leaves for FBS who would ultimately replace them in the CAA....? if anyone

Central Connecticut/Bryant/whoever the America East wants to add that doesn't have anywhere to put their football team.

[parr90]

JMU may prefer Con USA over the Sunbelt but IMO the sunbelt will end up being a better FOOTBALL conference than USA. I think with the additions of GSU and App, if those two continue to grow, the SB has some teams that have really taken off and continue to get better. I think JMU would do better for football in the future by getting an invite from the SB. Basketball would be another story. Football is quickly getting better in the SBC.

[UNHWildcat18]

To be honest, I can see Furman or Wofford, but I really can't see CCSU Bryant or Youngstown being in the mix. why leave the MVFC?, Bryant and CCSU would have to put a lot more money into the programs in terms of schollies, facilities, ect..

[MplsBison]

Furman and Wofford...........

Richmond and W&M would move (back) to the SoCon (Richmond for football only) before Woff and Furman would leave the SoCon for the CAA.

[MplsBison]

To be honest, I can see Furman or Wofford, but I really can't see CCSU Bryant or Youngstown being in the mix. why leave the MVFC?, Bryant and CCSU would have to put a lot more money into the programs in terms of schollies, facilities, ect..

Because Youngstown is on the eastern edge of a state in the eastern time zone. They align better with CAA football schools, in that sense, than a bunch of schools in the central time zone located in Illinois and especially way out in Missouri, Iowa and the Dakotas.

Moreover, they can't compete in the MVFC. That's not to say they'll have it easier in the CAA FC, but they may think that to be true.


I for one would be very happy to see Youngstown depart. I'd like to see Eastern Illinois picked up in their place and added to the Summit for non-football. That would be a great move on all parts (even the OVC, getting rid of a far flung team).

[Sandlapper Spike]

Furman and Wofford...........

Not happening. Neither school owns a bus that gets that kind of gas mileage.