Chronicle of Higher Ed article about HBCU APR troubles

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/players/fixing-the-ncaas-quandary-on-historically-black-colleges/33219#disqus_thread

This really might be a topic better suited for the lounge, but I'll start it here.

It doesn't make sense to me how HBCU's are praised for being places that give economically disadvantaged students a chance at an education, but when these schools take those same types of students and give them athleltic scholarships, people are outraged the players don't graduate at a much higher rate than the general student populations of those institutions and whine that sports are wagging the dog?

I wonder what would happen if non-HBCU's programs for economically disadvantaged and underrepresented students were scrutinized for their graduation rates the same way the NCAA scrutinized athletic programs?

[rokamortis]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/players/fixing-the-ncaas-quandary-on-historically-black-colleges/33219#disqus_thread

This really might be a topic better suited for the lounge, but I'll start it here.

It doesn't make sense to me how HBCU's are praised for being places that give economically disadvantaged students a chance at an education, but when these schools take those same types of students and give them athleltic scholarships, people are outraged the players don't graduate at a much higher rate than the general student populations of those institutions and whine that sports are wagging the dog?

I wonder what would happen if non-HBCU's programs for economically disadvantaged and underrepresented students were scrutinized for their graduation rates the same way the NCAA scrutinized athletic programs?

But it is really 2 different issues. The academic mission vs the resources and ability to have DI sports. You can do the first and not the latter. I think some of these schools are overreaching, they don't have the resources for DI athletics.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I very much agree.

The elephant in the room in regards to APR numbers, hinted at by the author but not addressed, is financial.


The mission of many historically black colleges also puts them at a disadvantage in Division I sports. They have the noble goal of admitting first-generation students, many of whom come from low socioeconomic backgrounds. But plenty of the transfer students they admit arrive with spotty academic records.

A lot of this is the incorrect perception of the APR that it's all about "academic progress". It's really about "retention", which has an academic component but is far from the whole story. For example, suppose you're the backup long snapper on Alabama A&M, you're paying your way in school, and suddenly your family goes into bankruptcy/foreclosure. You drop out to help your family - perhaps your grades suffer as a result - but AAMU's APR suffers.

Unsurprisingly, the large public schools with the money to hound athletes into "retention" - note I didn't say to make them great scholars - have good APR rates.

[WestCoastAggie]

http://chronicle.com/blogs/players/fixing-the-ncaas-quandary-on-historically-black-colleges/33219#disqus_thread

This really might be a topic better suited for the lounge, but I'll start it here.

It doesn't make sense to me how HBCU's are praised for being places that give economically disadvantaged students a chance at an education, but when these schools take those same types of students and give them athleltic scholarships, people are outraged the players don't graduate at a much higher rate than the general student populations of those institutions and whine that sports are wagging the dog?

I wonder what would happen if non-HBCU's programs for economically disadvantaged and underrepresented students were scrutinized for their graduation rates the same way the NCAA scrutinized athletic programs?

We [HBCU'S] are scrutinized for our overall 4 year grad rates. What isn't presented are our 6 year or 8 year graduation rates. When we are serving underprivleged and underrepresented students, we must realize that many are not going to be prepared for the rigors of graduation and have many life obstacles in their way that will prevent them from graduating in 4 years and many of us have programs that graduate students in 5 - 6 years.

Lastly, many HBCU student-athletes graduate at higher rates than the general student population.

[lionsrking2]

We [HBCU'S] are scrutinized for our overall 4 year grad rates. What isn't presented are our 6 year or 8 year graduation rates. When we are serving underprivleged and underrepresented students, we must realize that many are not going to prepared for the rigors of graduation and have many life obstacles in their way that will prevent them from graduating in 4 years and many of us have programs that graduate students in 5 - 6 years.

Lastly, many HBCU student-athletes graduate at higher rates than the general student population.

Very good post!

[DFW HOYA]

This is less an issue about underprivilege and more about undersupport across all sports, not just football.

Not all HBCU's fall below the cutoff. But 18 of 21 football teams are and some schools have multiple offenders--Alabama State has four different teams facing post-season ineligibility. It's reflective of two conferences where this has not been a priority until the NCAA made it one.

When a school like Mississippi Valley State scored an 810 (a 925 represents a 50% effective graduation rate), it's more than students needing more than six years to graduate. It's an issue where the school is not providing academic support for kids who need it at the start, not after they're done. Maybe it would be better to redshirt most or all freshmen to give them a chance to develop in the classroom, or focus on JC kids that have some level of demonstrated work already.

Yes, athletics at the SWAC and MEAC are underfunded, but it's part of a larger issue.

[Panther88]

they don't have the resources for DI athletics.

Bingo! Also, I think there is a lack of understanding the overall "game" of division-I athletics by the powers that be @ the helm. (decision makers)

There is no one single panacea that cures the APR-ill of D-I HBCUs because the understanding or even lack of understanding from so many decision makers is too diverse. The ONLY viable solution, imho, is to drop down to D-II and compete @ that level.

[rokamortis]

Bingo! Also, I think there is a lack of understanding the overall "game" of division-I athletics by the powers that be @ the helm. (decision makers)

There is no one single panacea that cures the APR-ill of D-I HBCUs because the understanding or even lack of understanding from so many decision makers is too diverse. The ONLY viable solution, imho, is to drop down to D-II and compete @ that level.

Great points.

It isn't just HBCUs, there are many other schools that struggle with having enough resources to support a DI program. Many schools have to make tough decisions and do decide to drop football or drop down a level of competition, or cut support. The schools that are struggling really need to assess what their goals are and if they can realistically fund their current academic and athletic programs or not.

[WestCoastAggie]

This is less an issue about underprivilege and more about undersupport across all sports, not just football.

Not all HBCU's fall below the cutoff. But 18 of 21 football teams are and some schools have multiple offenders--Alabama State has four different teams facing post-season ineligibility. It's reflective of two conferences where this has not been a priority until the NCAA made it one.

When a school like Mississippi Valley State scored an 810 (a 925 represents a 50% effective graduation rate), it's more than students needing more than six years to graduate. It's an issue where the school is not providing academic support for kids who need it at the start, not after they're done. Maybe it would be better to redshirt most or all freshmen to give them a chance to develop in the classroom, or focus on JC kids that have some level of demonstrated work already.

Yes, athletics at the SWAC and MEAC are underfunded, but it's part of a larger issue.

If we want to bring the larger picture into this discussion, we must realize that just about all public HBCU's are not equally funded compared to other public institutions.

If the states that have public HBCU's were given more resources & money to supply and serve these students that are not as prepared for the rigors of the college experience, we will see higher 4 year graduation rates. IMHO, the a state college system should fund all of their colleges equally. A&T should receive the same level of funding that NC State does and NCCU & WSSU should receive the same level of funding as UNC and ECU.

[Panther88]

If we want to bring the larger picture into this discussion, we must realize that just about all public HBCU's are not equally funded compared to public institutions.

If the states that have public HBCU's were given more resources & money to supply and serve these students that are not as prepared for the rigors of the college experience, we will see higher 4 year graduation rates. IMHO, the a state college system should fund all of their colleges equally. A&T should receive the same level of funding that NC State does and NCCU & WSSU should receive the same level of funding as UNC and ECU.

Great points West Coast and I need to be careful how I convey this but where does the buck stop? Would taxpayers continue to support an alleged university that graduates < 13% of its incoming frosh in a 4-year time-period? 5-year grad % of < 15%? Etc Could state govt's continue to substantiate supporting that type of entity w/ a very poor showing, just based upon the 4-yr grad #s?

[Panther88]

there are many other schools that struggle with having enough resources to support a DI program. Many schools have to make tough decisions and do decide to drop football or drop down a level of competition, or cut support. The schools that are struggling really need to assess what their goals are and if they can realistically fund their current academic and athletic programs or not.

+1. Some need to assess what is real and just.

[DFW HOYA]

If we want to bring the larger picture into this discussion, we must realize that just about all public HBCU's are not equally funded compared to public institutions.

Agreed, but that raise the troublesome issue of whether states need to fund multiple HBCU's in an era of cutbacks. Do you fund Morgan and Coppin (located five miles apart) equally or consolidate it into a single entity serving Baltimore? And how should a rural school like UMES be funded? Mississippi has three different HBCU's and the plan to merge two of them was met with loud disapproval.

Sometimes, it's more than funding, it's leadership. The stinging letter this week from a Howard trustee basically called that school's entire governance structure to task, and it's a private school (albeit one which gets a annual federal subsidy larger than the endowment of most schools on this board.)

[WestCoastAggie]

Great points West Coast and I need to be careful how I convey this but where does the buck stop? Would taxpayers continue to support an alleged university that graduates < 13% of its incoming frosh in a 4-year time-period? 5-year grad % of < 15%? Etc Could state govt's continue to substantiate supporting that type of entity w/ a very poor showing, just based upon the 4-yr grad #s?

Come one Panth. With out these outlets, many of these students served would not have a chance to even attend colleges unless its the University of Phoenix. I just do not think that UNC or NC State would just open their arms to A&T students that need to take numerous remedial courses. These students would weigh down their 4 year grad. average.

With this being said, A&T has enacted and are looking to further increase enrollment requirements. Many of the marginal students we used to take are now being funneled into the NC Jr College system.

[walliver]

Come one Panth. With out these outlets, many of these students served would not have a chance to even attend colleges unless its the University of Phoenix. I just do not think that UNC or NC State would just open their arms to A&T students that need to take numerous remedial courses. These students would weigh down their 4 year grad. average.

With this being said, A&T has enacted and are looking to further increase enrollment requirements. Many of the marginal students we used to take are now being funneled into the NC Jr College system.

Which is how it should be. Marginal students really should go to junior colleges/community colleges to become prepared for a full college experience.

SC State is having major financial issues. Much of this is due to horrible management, greed, and criminal activity; but, a significant problem is that the school accepts a large number of "marginal" students who flunk out after one year. This helps no-one, not the school, or the students, and definitely not the public welfare. Most of those students would have fared better at a two year school, and those students who thrive should transfer to a 4 year school.

The real problem, however, is that these "marginal" students are graduating from high school,

[Lehigh Football Nation]

SC State is having major financial issues. Much of this is due to horrible management, greed, and criminal activity; but, a significant problem is that the school accepts a large number of "marginal" students who flunk out after one year. This helps no-one, not the school, or the students, and definitely not the public welfare. Most of those students would have fared better at a two year school, and those students who thrive should transfer to a 4 year school.

The real problem, however, is that these "marginal" students are graduating from high school,

Some schools have it as their mission to accept mostly first-time collegegoers and kids who would like an education but for, whatever reason, are on the margins. By its nature it's higher-risk. And while JuCos will be a help for some kids, I doubt its the whole solution. In fact, doesn't it basically move the problem to the JuCos, where the "problem" is better hidden?

[walliver]

Some schools have it as their mission to accept mostly first-time collegegoers and kids who would like an education but for, whatever reason, are on the margins. By its nature it's higher-risk. And while JuCos will be a help for some kids, I doubt its the whole solution. In fact, doesn't it basically move the problem to the JuCos, where the "problem" is better hidden?

The problem comes into play in states with "education lotteries". Students start school with a lottery scholarship. When they underperform their freshman year, the lottery scholarship goes away and they can't afford to continue. In South Carolina, for example, much of the funding of public schools is accomplished by lottery scholarships given to students, not direct payments to the colleges and universities. Students can apply their lottery money to almost any school in the state (including private institutions). In the case of SC State, a high proportion of their students lose their lottery money after their freshman year, and the institution is running well in the red.

Prior to desegregation in the 1960's, HBCU's attracted the brightest African-American students, the brightest AA professors, and best AA athletes. The historical mission of these institutions was not remedial education for students who failed in high school, but to provide a high quality education for those not allowed in other schools. Maybe some of these institutions are trying to re-image themselves for the 21st century. If this is to be successful, new funding models will need to be developed (and from a practical standpoint, that isn't going happen in South Carolina anytime soon).

[NDB]

Maybe some of these institutions are trying to re-image themselves for the 21st century.

The entire higher education system in this country is in turmoil, HBCU's have unique issues, but WHO has navigated changes in the past 50 years perfectly?

I can't help but question the role of or need for HBCU's in the 21st century. They have got to make their case.

(FYI - I'm well informed of HBCU's. I've lived with and worked along side grads, with faculty members, and my best grad student is a recent grad.)

[WileECoyote06]

The entire higher education system in this country is in turmoil, HBCU's have unique issues, but WHO has navigated changes in the past 50 years perfectly?

I can't help but question the role of or need for HBCU's in the 21st century. They have got to make their case.

(FYI - I'm well informed of HBCU's. I've lived with and worked along side grads, with faculty members, and my best grad student is a recent grad.)

Well they are colleges and universities; many of them regional universities, or small liberal arts or comprehensive colleges. In that regard, they are just like other universities and colleges of similar size, and scope. They exist and will continue to exist; and the more inefficient ones will close and the best ones will thrive, just like non-HBCUs.

No, HBCUs do not have to justify their existence or 'make their case'.

[CID1990]

We [HBCU'S] are scrutinized for our overall 4 year grad rates. What isn't presented are our 6 year or 8 year graduation rates. When we are serving underprivleged and underrepresented students, we must realize that many are not going to be prepared for the rigors of graduation and have many life obstacles in their way that will prevent them from graduating in 4 years and many of us have programs that graduate students in 5 - 6 years.

Lastly, many HBCU student-athletes graduate at higher rates than the general student population.

There are definitely many exceptions that keep some types of colleges and universities from fitting in nicely to the APR formula. Our APR at El Cid is pretty good, but if it were not for freshman attrition due to the military nature of the school, our APR would be around the highest in the SoCon.

[BEAR]

Working in higher education, I see that getting kids into college is mainly a business..even for a nonprofit. If you don't make the money to support yourself you endanger your existence. Pretty obvious.

Funding for colleges and universities in Arkansas is going from student head count to "retention and graduation rates". That has caused a shift in acceptance and acceptance practices. Standards are being set for admittance. Plus two year colleges and even four year universities are cutting out developmental courses and actually going out to high schools to prepare students for college. Its a nice change that has brought about increased rejection of those students who can't meet, for example, a minimum readiing score that equals the 7th grade level.

I think you will see higher retention rates in many colleges and universities but also an increased number of college-less citizens working labor jobs.

I know coach Conque looks at the total athlete when he recruits. Academics, athletics, and attitude are most important. Most FCS players aren't going to the NFL so they HAVE to be able to graduate. At UCA, a 960 APR rate in football, means kids are not only playing but also graduating.

[813Jag]

Working in higher education, I see that getting kids into college is mainly a business..even for a nonprofit. If you don't make the money to support yourself you endanger your existence. Pretty obvious.

Funding for colleges and universities in Arkansas is going from student head count to "retention and graduation rates". That has caused a shift in acceptance and acceptance practices. Standards are being set for admittance. Plus two year colleges and even four year universities are cutting out developmental courses and actually going out to high schools to prepare students for college. Its a nice change that has brought about increased rejection of those students who can't meet, for example, a minimum readiing score that equals the 7th grade level.

I think you will see higher retention rates in many colleges and universities but also an increased number of college-less citizens working labor jobs.

I know coach Conque looks at the total athlete when he recruits. Academics, athletics, and attitude are most important. Most FCS players aren't going to the NFL so they HAVE to be able to graduate. At UCA, a 960 APR rate in football, means kids are not only playing but also graduating.
That's the direction Southern is heading in, getting hit with that APR penalty was a wake up call for our football and basketball programs.

[walliver]

Getting back to the original article:
"All but three of those teams are at historically black colleges, continuing a troubling pattern among less-wealthy institutions."

I think the author is taking the easy way out here. If a school can't afford D-I, they shouldn't play D-I. But, reading the rest of the article, the problem seems to be institutional priorities. Whether or not a school's mission involves admitting marginal students, athletic recruiting should be limited to student-athletes. A marginal student will have a difficult enough time surviving academically without playing sports, and almost no chance if involved with a varsity team.

[BluBengal07]

That's the direction Southern is heading in, getting hit with that APR penalty was a wake up call for our football and basketball programs.

Jackson State is the same way. We're currently on the fast track to get and remain on the national level, not the underresourced level, in APR. Programs, services and leadership have been put into place to support this area.



http://www.jsumsnews.com/?p=6829
"Other notable JSU top-performing APR teams include the following, which earned a single-year APR of 1,000: men’s golf, men’s tennis, men’s track Indoor, men’s track outdoor, women’s basketball, women’s tennis, women’s track Indoor, and women’s track outdoor. Men’s football posted its highest single-year APR score since the inception of the APR with a 971, a 53 point increase from its single-year score of 918 last year. The top performing teams in regard to multi-year APR include: men’s golf (991), women’s golf (989), women’s tennis (988), women’s cross country (980), and women’s volleyball (973)."


Yea, this article took the easy route and focused on HBCUs while there are D1 PWIs who are and have been penalized (even some who have national storied programs) put that's some folks for you.

[BEAR]

That's the direction Southern is heading in, getting hit with that APR penalty was a wake up call for our football and basketball programs.

xbowx Awesome! I went back to school to get the knowledge on how to help schools with low APR results..but not just athletics. Way to go Southern!

[Panther88]

Many of the marginal students we used to take are now being funneled into the NC Jr College system.

I think JUCOs, and CommColleges are the preferred feeders to 4-yr institutions to serve those who are not prepared. A 4yr institution shouldn't shoulder the 4/6-yr-grad% hit relating those who are not academically prepared for the rigors of a 4+(-yr) university education.

[ThompsonThe]

Face it, a lot of this is because elementary and high schools are not preparing students adequately. If students are allowed to skate by some, particularly because they have an athletic talent, it makes it even worse. Colleges cannot make up for years of things that Freshmen should have been required to know within a few months.

[DSUrocks07]

Hampton improves APR score by 20 points to 901.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/colleges/dp-spt-ncaa-apr-local-20130611,0,1976452.story

North Carolina A&T significantly improves APR to 944 (no more APR related penalties).

http://www.news-record.com/blogs/sports_extra/article_d54580bc-d2b4-11e2-8134-0019bb30f31a.html

[clenz]

Face it, a lot of this is because elementary and high schools are not preparing students adequately. If students are allowed to skate by some, particularly because they have an athletic talent, it makes it even worse. Colleges cannot make up for years of things that Freshmen should have been required to know within a few months.

Don't completely disagree, but if that's the case shouldn't every school have the same apr issues

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