VMI to SoCon "Nearly Complete"

[knucklehead]

http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/1947751-12/vmi-coach-says-keydets-return-to-socon-nearly.html


"The Southern Conference did visit [the school] two weeks ago on a Wednesday [May 8] and all indications are that we're going to go back to the Southern Conference," Baucom continued. "It will be formally announced, I think, May 30th or 31st at the Southern Conference meeting."

[aceinthehole]

What will Big South football membership look like if VMI does leave for the SoCon? Is the AQ in danger?

Also, this effective for the 2014-15 season, correct?

[knucklehead]

With the addition of Monmouth, there would still be 6, I believe. That is until Liberty or CCU leaves...or both.

[PaladinFan]

What will Big South football membership look like if VMI does leave for the SoCon? Is the AQ in danger?

Also, this effective for the 2014-15 season, correct?

I think most of these changes are effective as of next season.

I do not know whether CofC and Davidson will be around for 2014, as they are not football members.

[The Cats]

http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/1947751-12/vmi-coach-says-keydets-return-to-socon-nearly.html


Once the fight is done, we must accept the outcome of the battle and march on.


VMI, Welcome back to the SoCon. xbeerchugx

I hope both of us can do something about our football.

[asumike83]

I think most of these changes are effective as of next season.

I do not know whether CofC and Davidson will be around for 2014, as they are not football members.

Not sure about CofC/Davidson either but I know that App/GSU will each be playing basketball/baseball in the SoCon in 2014. Actual membership date is July 1, 2014 so football will be gone after 2013.

[The Moody1]

"Noting that SoCon hoops power Davidson is leaving the league in 2014 for the Atlantic 10, Baucom quipped: "Now that Davidson is gone, the Southern Conference is a lot more attractive."

Embarrassing comment.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Once the fight is done, we must accept the outcome of the battle and march on.


VMI, Welcome back to the SoCon. xbeerchugx

I hope both of us can do something about our football.


I think y'all made a lot of progress last year, even though it didn't show up in your record. I would expect 4-5 wins this year, with a pair of SoCon wins.

[CID1990]

"Noting that SoCon hoops power Davidson is leaving the league in 2014 for the Atlantic 10, Baucom quipped: "Now that Davidson is gone, the Southern Conference is a lot more attractive."

Embarrassing comment.

I would have to agree with him on that if I was a school that sponsors all three major sports. The SoCon's aims have been hard to decipher lately, but it looks as though the lessons of the grand failed experiment in trying to artificially boost basketball with schools like Davidson and cofc have been learned.

[walliver]

I think most of these changes are effective as of next season.

I do not know whether CofC and Davidson will be around for 2014, as they are not football members.

CofC is gone this summer. The conference has already make scheduling adjustments, suspending division play for one year. I don't think Davy leaves until next summer.

[The Cats]

I think y'all made a lot of progress last year, even though it didn't show up in your record. I would expect 4-5 wins this year, with a pair of SoCon wins.

We're hoping for that much progress but with three FBS schools on the schedule - it could be difficult, two SoCon wins is a nice start for the Cats.

[Saint3333]

I would have to agree with him on that if I was a school that sponsors all three major sports. The SoCon's aims have been hard to decipher lately, but it looks as though the lessons of the grand failed experiment in trying to artificially boost basketball with schools like Davidson and cofc have been learned.

What exactly are they trying to boost now, I can't figure it out? Losing DC for basketball was a big blow.

[CID1990]

What exactly are they trying to boost now, I can't figure it out? Losing DC for basketball was a big blow.

Did you enjoy getting your a$$ handed to you every year by a couple schools that did not have to devote any resources to football?

Associate members for basketball are a bad formula, and their membership was a direct attempt to bolster SoCon hoops on the cheap, and at the expense of the other schools.

Not that your opinion on it really matters at this point.

[phoenix3]

Did you enjoy getting your a$$ handed to you every year by a couple schools that did not have to devote any resources to football?

Associate members for basketball are a bad formula, and their membership was a direct attempt to bolster SoCon hoops on the cheap, and at the expense of the other schools.

Not that your opinion on it really matters at this point.

So, what exactly are ETSU and Mercer? (Assuming they are coming on board) Associate members with a promise?

[Sandlapper Spike]

Mercer's admission to the SoCon is reportedly contingent on offering scholarship football (which would also be true for ETSU).

[ASUMountaineer]

Did you enjoy getting your a$$ handed to you every year by a couple schools that did not have to devote any resources to football?

Associate members for basketball are a bad formula, and their membership was a direct attempt to bolster SoCon hoops on the cheap, and at the expense of the other schools.

Not that your opinion on it really matters at this point.

I doubt most, if any, of ours on AGS matter.

[ASUMountaineer]

Mercer's admission to the SoCon is reportedly contingent on offering scholarship football (which would also be true for ETSU).

What if they don't within the specified amount of time, will the SoCon kick them out and fish for more?

[Sandlapper Spike]

Well, the league did force the withdrawal of ETSU when it dropped football a decade ago.

[Go...gate]

So much for VMI to the Patriot League.

[PaladinFan]

What exactly are they trying to boost now, I can't figure it out? Losing DC for basketball was a big blow.

No one argues losing Davidson hurts basketball. Still, on the whole, I think the SoCon has a net gain in men's hoops.

I think App fans are less familiar with Mercer because they are not in North Carolina, but Mercer men's basketball is every bit the equal of Davidson. They won the CIT last season, and advanced to the second round of the NIT this year. The team that upset Mercer (the ASun regular season champs) in the conference tournament finals was Florida Gulf Coast, who of course went to the sweet 16.

They are a legitimate basketball program.

[walliver]

What if they don't within the specified amount of time, will the SoCon kick them out and fish for more?

I don't know, it seems that everybody we kick out comes back.

[Saint3333]

Did you enjoy getting your a$$ handed to you every year by a couple schools that did not have to devote any resources to football?

Associate members for basketball are a bad formula, and their membership was a direct attempt to bolster SoCon hoops on the cheap, and at the expense of the other schools.

Not that your opinion on it really matters at this point.

App has a near .500 record vs. DC. My opinion matters about as much as yours.

You didn't answer the question what direction is the SoCon going in, they just don't know it appears.

[CID1990]

App has a near .500 record vs. DC. My opinion matters about as much as yours.

You didn't answer the question what direction is the SoCon going in, they just don't know it appears.

It appears they are moving away from associate membership, which is exactly what I would have them do.

But by all means continue with the snide references to the SoCon and then later deny you do it when called out, and then blame it on Sun Belt jealousy.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

Snide? I'm calling them out, pick a course, don't half a$$ try to fix all your problems, pick a couple and find a niche.

They will continue to make decision that will weaken the conference.

[CID1990]

Snide? I'm calling them out, pick a course, don't half a$$ try to fix all your problems, pick a couple and find a niche.

They will continue to make decision that will weaken the conference.

Well then at least you don't have to worry your pretty little head over it anymore.

[phoenix3]

It appears they are moving away from associate membership, which is exactly what I would have them do.

But by all means continue with the snide references to the SoCon and then later deny you do it when called out, and then blame it on Sun Belt jealousy.


Sent from the center of the universe.

It also appears they are moving away from football centric. A low end FCS, a non existent team, (a promise to build one & make it scholarship), and a first year non scholarship team, (a promise to go scholarship), to replace App and GSU.

[PaladinFan]

App has a near .500 record vs. DC. My opinion matters about as much as yours.

You didn't answer the question what direction is the SoCon going in, they just don't know it appears.

Kind of like App State has "a near .500 record" against Furman in football?

The Conference is clearly focusing on locking up some good basketball programs. The SoCon was the third best FCS football conference in 2012. It will be the third best once GSU and App State leave. There's just a gap. Wofford, UTC, and the Citadel will be playoff-calibre programs tomorrow just like they were yesterday.

What it will no longer be is a laughing stock in basketball. VMI, Mercer, and ETSU are all much better basketball programs than either GSU or App State.

[Sir William]

Kind of like App State has "a near .500 record" against Furman in football?

Ka-bam!

[CID1990]

It also appears they are moving away from football centric. A low end FCS, a non existent team, (a promise to build one & make it scholarship), and a first year non scholarship team, (a promise to go scholarship), to replace App and GSU.

Every one of those schools is getting a look because they either have football, or are joining with scholarship football as a condition of membership. So whether they are "good" football schools currently is immaterial. They will play football in the conference while the associate members are leaving. That is not moving away from being football centric.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

You guys live in 1980. Bam boom pow...

[rokamortis]

What it will no longer be is a laughing stock in basketball. VMI, Mercer, and ETSU are all much better basketball programs than either GSU or App State.

Davidson and CofC are equal to Mercer and ETSU?

[hapapp]

"Noting that SoCon hoops power Davidson is leaving the league in 2014 for the Atlantic 10, Baucom quipped: "Now that Davidson is gone, the Southern Conference is a lot more attractive."

Embarrassing comment.

Emphasis on "quipped." I don't think he was being completely serious.

[walliver]

Davidson and CofC are equal to Mercer and ETSU?

Davidson was dominant. CofC won exactly 1 SoCon BB tournament. Davy is a loss, the College of Knowledge v Mercer is a wash.

[kdinva]

VMI, Welcome back to the SoCon. xbeerchugx

I hope both of us can do something about our football.

thanks, us more than you. xsmiley_wix WCU had some fine seasons under Coach Waters, then I remember one game in Lex., Brad Hoover ran and ran and ran......., and more good years in the '90's........

[kdinva]

Also, this effective for the 2014-15 season, correct?

yes, as of 7/1/14.

[CID1990]

Davidson and CofC are equal to Mercer and ETSU?

Mercer is comparable with Davidson in terms of basketball. They didnt have a Stephan Curry for 4 years, but they have done as well as Davidson over the past couple years. Mercer is also a good baseball school, and in a couple years they will also be playing scholarship football. So yeah, I'd take Mercer over Davidson in a heartbeat, even if they werent all that good in baseball and basketball.

As for cofc, they havent exactly been setting the basketball world on fire the last couple years. I'd rate them pretty close to ETSU.

But the big difference is that both Mercer and ETSU will play scholarship football. Davidson and cofc do not.

I remember a several years back all the pooh poohing over Elon moving up to FCS and joining the SoCon, and how it would be forever until they became competitive at the SoCon level in football. The recent talk about ETSU and Mercer in football is very reminiscent of that. Those schools dont currently play football, but they key is a full four years of recruiting for the FCS level, and Elon didn't have that initially, either.

[kdinva]

"Noting that SoCon hoops power Davidson is leaving the league in 2014 for the Atlantic 10, Baucom quipped: "Now that Davidson is gone, the Southern Conference is a lot more attractive."

Embarrassing comment.

I agree, keep that thought to yourself, Duggar.

[CID1990]

Davidson was dominant. CofC won exactly 1 SoCon BB tournament. Davy is a loss, the College of Knowledge v Mercer is a wash.

If cofc played football, it would be a wash, except that Mercer likely does not play with the number of JUCO trannies who never graduate (baseball) that cofc does. In fact, nobody in the entire SoCon holds a candle to cofc in that respect.

[kdinva]

So, perhaps in 2016, the FB make up will be: (presuming ETSU is given 2015 as a "start up" year, and Mercer is full scholly by 2015)

Elon
Wofford
Furman
The Citadel
WCU
VMI
ETSU
Mercer
UT-C
Samford

I'd presume teams would play 8/9 opponents, leaving 3 OOC contests.

[The Cats]

If Elon leaves, 9 continues to be the perfect number of football members. 4 home, 4 away, the rest OCC.

Wofford
Furman
The Citadel
WCU
VMI
ETSU
Mercer
UT-C
Samford

[PAllen]

So, perhaps in 2016, the FB make up will be: (presuming ETSU is given 2015 as a "start up" year, and Mercer is full scholly by 2015)

Elon
Wofford
Furman
The Citadel
WCU
VMI
ETSU
Mercer
UT-C
Samford

I'd presume teams would play 8/9 opponents, leaving 3 OOC contests.

Lose Elon from the list, but yeah.

[Sir William]

If Elon leaves, 9 continues to be the perfect number of football members. 4 home, 4 away, the rest OCC.

Wofford
Furman
The Citadel
WCU
VMI
ETSU
Mercer
UT-C
Samford

That's a good conference...and it will send 2-3 to the playoffs each year. Bank it.

[PAllen]

That's a good conference...and it will send 2-3 to the playoffs each year. Bank it.

Agreed, a very nice conference with a good old "Southern Conference" feel to it.

[hapapp]

That's a good conference...and it will send 2-3 to the playoffs each year. Bank it.


Actually, I think that is a pretty balanced conference. It will be interesting to see how over the course of time the newbies in football get up to snuff. I was at ASU when we joined the SoCon and I still remembered the excitement of moving up into a league I had followed much of life until that time. It certainly took us time to get up to SoCon standards and but we were competitive within 3-5 years.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

Kind of like App State has "a near .500 record" against Furman in football?

The Conference is clearly focusing on locking up some good basketball programs. The SoCon was the third best FCS football conference in 2012. It will be the third best once GSU and App State leave. There's just a gap. Wofford, UTC, and the Citadel will be playoff-calibre programs tomorrow just like they were yesterday.

What it will no longer be is a laughing stock in basketball. VMI, Mercer, and ETSU are all much better basketball programs than either GSU or App State.

Granted we had a lot of ground to make up but since 2000 ASU has owned the Paladins (11-3).

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

If Elon leaves, 9 continues to be the perfect number of football members. 4 home, 4 away, the rest OCC.

Wofford
Furman
The Citadel
WCU
VMI
ETSU
Mercer
UT-C
Samford

The UTC & Western folks should be giddy with that line up.

[asumike83]

No one argues losing Davidson hurts basketball. Still, on the whole, I think the SoCon has a net gain in men's hoops.

I think App fans are less familiar with Mercer because they are not in North Carolina, but Mercer men's basketball is every bit the equal of Davidson. They won the CIT last season, and advanced to the second round of the NIT this year. The team that upset Mercer (the ASun regular season champs) in the conference tournament finals was Florida Gulf Coast, who of course went to the sweet 16.

They are a legitimate basketball program.

I dislike Davidson as much as anyone you'll ever meet but that is not true. It's not even close. How does a CIT title and an NIT appearance make them Davidson's equal? Davidson has 12 NCAA tournament appearances. Mercer has been once, in 1985. Davidson has been to the NCAA tournament 8 times since Mercer last made an appearance.

Davidson has 22 regular season SoCon titles, including 9 of the last 12. They have 12 SoCon tournament titles, including 5 of the last 7. Davidson is 33-3 in conference play over the last two seasons and has swept the regular season and tournament titles each year. Mercer has got to step into the SoCon, dominate for the next decade and rack up some NCAA tournament appearances before that is even a discussion.



The Conference is clearly focusing on locking up some good basketball programs. The SoCon was the third best FCS football conference in 2012. It will be the third best once GSU and App State leave. There's just a gap. Wofford, UTC, and the Citadel will be playoff-calibre programs tomorrow just like they were yesterday.

What it will no longer be is a laughing stock in basketball. VMI, Mercer, and ETSU are all much better basketball programs than either GSU or App State.

The SoCon has long-term potential in football if ETSU/Mercer start strong, VMI makes the necessary investment to be competitive, Furman gets back to where they once were, Wofford takes the reigns as the top dog and UTC finally gets over the hump. That is a lot of qualifiers. I hope the conference is successful but I'm not sure how you could say they will still be the third best FCS conference immediately after losing their top two programs. The conference will have 2 start-ups, 1 program who's made the playoffs in the last 5 years and 2 programs who have been in the last 20 years. The SoCon will be squarely behind the MVFC, CAA and Big Sky.

Also, VMI is not a 'much better program' than App in basketball. In fact, they are a step down. App has a 10-game lead in the all-time series and have finished with a higher RPI each of the last five seasons, possibly longer but I did not look past that. Even in ASU's weak spot, trading App for VMI is a wash at best. How can you possibly say that this is a net gain in basketball when all 4 teams that got a bye in the conference tournament are leaving?

There is no way to argue that this will make basketball significantly better, or better at all really. Is Mercer better than Davidson? No. Is ETSU better than Charleston? No. Is VMI better than App or Elon? No. Unless you think taking GSU out is all the conference needed, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

[Sir William]

The SoCon has long-term potential in football if ETSU/Mercer start strong, VMI makes the necessary investment to be competitive, Furman gets back to where they once were and re-takes the reigns as the top dog and UTC finally gets over the hump.

FIFY xsmiley_wix

[asumike83]

FIFY xsmiley_wix

That'd be fine by me. Once we are gone, I'll be rooting for all you guys.

[CID1990]

FIFY xsmiley_wix

We're going to spank you awful non dancin Baptist ****s for at least a few more years first


Sent from the center of the universe.

[SU DOG]

We're going to spank you awful non dancin Baptist ****s for at least a few more years first


Sent from the center of the universe.

There just might be some OTHER awful non-dancing Baptists that you will also have to worry about, and maybe even more so.

[catamount man]

If Elon leaves, 9 continues to be the perfect number of football members. 4 home, 4 away, the rest OCC.

Wofford
Furman
The Citadel
WCU
VMI
ETSU
Mercer
UT-C
Samford

PERFECT SOCON STARTING IN 2014! GO CATS!

[catamount man]

The UTC & Western folks should be giddy with that line up.

We are! LOL! GO CATS! Course when we were good, we beat Marshall, App State and Furman. Only beat GSU once though, back in 94.

[Saint3333]

That's a good conference...and it will send 2-3 to the playoffs each year. Bank it.

With 24 teams now it is possible Only about 80 schools offer 60 scholarships. How many will make it to the semis? A shift of power to Midwest and Western schools will continue.

[HappyAppy]

I dislike Davidson as much as anyone you'll ever meet but that is not true. It's not even close. How does a CIT title and an NIT appearance make them Davidson's equal? Davidson has 12 NCAA tournament appearances. Mercer has been once, in 1985. Davidson has been to the NCAA tournament 8 times since Mercer last made an appearance.

Davidson has 22 regular season SoCon titles, including 9 of the last 12. They have 12 SoCon tournament titles, including 5 of the last 7. Davidson is 33-3 in conference play over the last two seasons and has swept the regular season and tournament titles each year. Mercer has got to step into the SoCon, dominate for the next decade and rack up some NCAA tournament appearances before that is even a discussion.



The SoCon has long-term potential in football if ETSU/Mercer start strong, VMI makes the necessary investment to be competitive, Furman gets back to where they once were, Wofford takes the reigns as the top dog and UTC finally gets over the hump. That is a lot of qualifiers. I hope the conference is successful but I'm not sure how you could say they will still be the third best FCS conference immediately after losing their top two programs. The conference will have 2 start-ups, 1 program who's made the playoffs in the last 5 years and 2 programs who have been in the last 20 years. The SoCon will be squarely behind the MVFC, CAA and Big Sky.

Also, VMI is not a 'much better program' than App in basketball. In fact, they are a step down. App has a 10-game lead in the all-time series and have finished with a higher RPI each of the last five seasons, possibly longer but I did not look past that. Even in ASU's weak spot, trading App for VMI is a wash at best. How can you possibly say that this is a net gain in basketball when all 4 teams that got a bye in the conference tournament are leaving?

There is no way to argue that this will make basketball significantly better, or better at all really. Is Mercer better than Davidson? No. Is ETSU better than Charleston? No. Is VMI better than App or Elon? No. Unless you think taking GSU out is all the conference needed, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

Thank you for pointing out the sheer absurdity of that post.

" but Mercer men's basketball is every bit the equal of Davidson. They won the CIT last season, and advanced to the second round of the NIT this year. "

How can somebody even type that without breaking into laughter? What a ridiculous statement. If you look at the short term success, mid term success, and long term success of these two programs, it's not even close. Mercer is not in the same ballpark as Davidson. They are not in the same zip code.

[The Cats]

I never thought I'd ever see ASU fans defending Davidson's prowess as a basketball power. xpopcornx

[ElCid]

I think I would welcome Mercer and welcome back ETSU and VMI. Although VMI has issues, the tradition and affinity the Citadel has with them can only be good for the conference overall. I actually kind of hope Mercer is included as it is about 20 miles away and I can see some non-Citadel games I would not normally travel to.

As far as looking at what we lose compared to what we gain in each major men's sports, football is an obvious net loss. App St and GaSo are arguably two of the best ever. VMI, Mercer and ETSU will not replace them and it will be years before any make noise in FCS. But the footprint looks good. SOCON stays in GA. Gains another in Tenn, which is great for WCU and Chatt. And VMI extends us into VA again with possible CAA realignment ramifications. Wofford, Chatt, Samford, and The Citadel are all looking good this coming season and Furman will recover all too fast. That is a solid core of good programs that will be competitive with any FCS conference.

I will have to agree with those who detest the non-scholly football and non football element so good riddance to Davidson and CoC. Yes we lose the anchor basketball program, but to say that Davidson was good only because they kept winning the SOCON is not saying much. Yes they had lots of appearances in the tournament, and they had a great year once. But it never seemed to pull the rest of the conference up. So it looks like they were nothing more than tournament whores. And they have not made it past the first round recently except for 08. VMI and ETSU have had success in the past even if they have fallen off lately. ETSU has at least 9 tourny trips since the 70s, 2 past the first round. Mercer is a definite gain with a solid program even if not on Davidson's level. If we look at the most recent RPIs here is what we gain/lose. Yes, it is just a snapshot of this last season, but just think, "what have you done for me lately...." Take out Davidson and we have about a wash. Otherwise it is an obvious loss, but I think not devastatingly so.

2013 BBall RPI
Davidson - 61 Mercer - 137
CoC - 133 ETSU - 199
App - 263 VMI - 303
GaSo - 264

Baseball is another story. I think it will be a definite gain. Again, the current RPI...and the season still continues...GO DOGS!xthumbsupx

2013 Baseball RPI

CoC - 77 Mercer - 27
App - 90 ETSU - 103
Ga So - 144 VMI - 188
Davidson - 198

I have to echo what a couple wise folks have said about the SOCON, the sky is not falling; this type of transition is in its blood, and we are about to get some new blood.

[PaladinFan]

I dislike Davidson as much as anyone you'll ever meet but that is not true. It's not even close. How does a CIT title and an NIT appearance make them Davidson's equal? Davidson has 12 NCAA tournament appearances. Mercer has been once, in 1985. Davidson has been to the NCAA tournament 8 times since Mercer last made an appearance.

Davidson has 22 regular season SoCon titles, including 9 of the last 12. They have 12 SoCon tournament titles, including 5 of the last 7. Davidson is 33-3 in conference play over the last two seasons and has swept the regular season and tournament titles each year. Mercer has got to step into the SoCon, dominate for the next decade and rack up some NCAA tournament appearances before that is even a discussion.



The SoCon has long-term potential in football if ETSU/Mercer start strong, VMI makes the necessary investment to be competitive, Furman gets back to where they once were, Wofford takes the reigns as the top dog and UTC finally gets over the hump. That is a lot of qualifiers. I hope the conference is successful but I'm not sure how you could say they will still be the third best FCS conference immediately after losing their top two programs. The conference will have 2 start-ups, 1 program who's made the playoffs in the last 5 years and 2 programs who have been in the last 20 years. The SoCon will be squarely behind the MVFC, CAA and Big Sky.

Also, VMI is not a 'much better program' than App in basketball. In fact, they are a step down. App has a 10-game lead in the all-time series and have finished with a higher RPI each of the last five seasons, possibly longer but I did not look past that. Even in ASU's weak spot, trading App for VMI is a wash at best. How can you possibly say that this is a net gain in basketball when all 4 teams that got a bye in the conference tournament are leaving?

There is no way to argue that this will make basketball significantly better, or better at all really. Is Mercer better than Davidson? No. Is ETSU better than Charleston? No. Is VMI better than App or Elon? No. Unless you think taking GSU out is all the conference needed, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

They will still be the third best conference simply because there are still good teams. Wofford was still a few plays from beating the national champs on the road in the playoffs. Samford, UTC, and the Citadel will all three be playoff contenders. Probably won't happen this season, but Furman has rebuilt with a lot of young talent and will be back in the national conversation soon enough.

You and I are just going to have to disagree on the basketball. The only current SoCon team I would compare as an equal to Mercer is Davidson. ETSU and VMI are not as good, but they are both going to be fine in the conference. You cannot forget the SoCon is an awful basketball conference, and each of these three teams is an improvement.

It would be a better basketball conference with Davidson. If you have to lose Davidson, though, the SoCon is replacing them with probably the best available mid-major basketball program in the Southeast in Mercer.

[PaladinFan]

I think I would welcome Mercer and welcome back ETSU and VMI. Although VMI has issues, the tradition and affinity the Citadel has with them can only be good for the conference overall. I actually kind of hope Mercer is included as it is about 20 miles away and I can see some non-Citadel games I would not normally travel to.

As far as looking at what we lose compared to what we gain in each major men's sports, football is an obvious net loss. App St and GaSo are arguably two of the best ever. VMI, Mercer and ETSU will not replace them and it will be years before any make noise in FCS. But the footprint looks good. SOCON stays in GA. Gains another in Tenn, which is great for WCU and Chatt. And VMI extends us into VA again with possible CAA realignment ramifications. Wofford, Chatt, Samford, and The Citadel are all looking good this coming season and Furman will recover all too fast. That is a solid core of good programs that will be competitive with any FCS conference.

I will have to agree with those who detest the non-scholly football and non football element so good riddance to Davidson and CoC. Yes we lose the anchor basketball program, but to say that Davidson was good only because they kept winning the SOCON is not saying much. Yes they had lots of appearances in the tournament, and they had a great year once. But it never seemed to pull the rest of the conference up. So it looks like they were nothing more than tournament whores. And they have not made it past the first round recently except for 08. VMI and ETSU have had success in the past even if they have fallen off lately. ETSU has at least 9 tourny trips since the 70s, 2 past the first round. Mercer is a definite gain with a solid program even if not on Davidson's level. If we look at the most recent RPIs here is what we gain/lose. Yes, it is just a snapshot of this last season, but just think, "what have you done for me lately...." Take out Davidson and we have about a wash. Otherwise it is an obvious loss, but I think not devastatingly so.

2013 BBall RPI
Davidson - 61 Mercer - 137
CoC - 133 ETSU - 199
App - 263 VMI - 303
GaSo - 264

Baseball is another story. I think it will be a definite gain. Again, the current RPI...and the season still continues...GO DOGS!xthumbsupx

2013 Baseball RPI

CoC - 77 Mercer - 27
App - 90 ETSU - 103
Ga So - 144 VMI - 188
Davidson - 198

I have to echo what a couple wise folks have said about the SOCON, the sky is not falling; this type of transition is in its blood, and we are about to get some new blood.

Local paper has this little tidbit this morning:

"Mercer is one of five [baseball] programs nationally to average 38 wins through the past five seasons, joining North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State, and South Carolina."

[ElCid]

Local paper has this little tidbit this morning:

"Mercer is one of five [baseball] programs nationally to average 38 wins through the past five seasons, joining North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State, and South Carolina."

I think if they join the SOCON, that number will drop off a bit. We got some good teams. But yes I think they would be great baseball gain.

[PaladinFan]

Thank you for pointing out the sheer absurdity of that post.

" but Mercer men's basketball is every bit the equal of Davidson. They won the CIT last season, and advanced to the second round of the NIT this year. "

How can somebody even type that without breaking into laughter? What a ridiculous statement. If you look at the short term success, mid term success, and long term success of these two programs, it's not even close. Mercer is not in the same ballpark as Davidson. They are not in the same zip code.

Not in the same zip code? Mercer has gone 51-23 the past two seasons. Davidson has gone 51-16 in a weaker conference. You honestly don't think those two programs are in the same zip code?

I'm not concerned about the all time history of the programs. By that argument, I would say Furman has a better football program than App State because we've owned the series against App and have a longer history of success. Even you would agree that statement is absurd.

Mercer is not as good as Davidson. As someone who has followed both programs (I assume you have not), I can tell you they are in the same ballpark. They both draw well (only CofC, UTC, and Davidson draw better in the SoCon than Mercer). They both routinely beat middle of the pack schools from large conferences (Mercer had wins against Tennessee, Florida State, and Alabama last season). They may not be at the exact level of Davidson, but they would be at least the #2 SoCon basketball team right now.

[walliver]

I think the weakness of the SoCon has been the middle of the pack in all sports for the last decade. In football, Elon had one play-off experience and no conference titles. FU has had a 7 year drought, Citadel even longer, UTC and WCU have to open the history books to find a play-off experience, and Samford has yet to go as a SoCon member.

In basketball, only Davidson (6), Wofford (2), Chatty (2), CofC (1) and ETSU (2) have won championships this century. ASU won in 2000. Citadel, Elon, GSU and Samford have never won a SoCon tournament.

The real Achilles' heel of the SoCon has been the middle.

Adding ETSU and Mercer gives us the opportunity to create a less flashy but more competitive conference.
ASU and GSU didn't raise the level of VMI or WCU football.
CofC didn't raise the overall level of play for SoCon basketball.
And CofC did nothing for Wofford baseball :(

The shift of power in FCS towards the mid-west is a demographic and geographic issue. There are large well-funded institutions in the west and mid-west which have limited "big-time" competition and are not good geographic fits for most FBS conferences.(If located in the east, Montana, NDSU, et al., would already have been invited to C-USA, if not the AAC.) Similar eastern schools such as ASU, GSU, and ODU have more opportunities to move.

[hapapp]

I believe in time the conference will be just fine. I don't think basketball falls off that much and the baseball certainly holds it own with the addition of Mercer. Football will take the longest time to adjust but it will be interesting to see how the conference fleshes out. Hopefully, soon the SoCon will produce another national champion.

[Tealblood]

Local paper has this little tidbit this morning:

"Mercer is one of five [baseball] programs nationally to average 38 wins through the past five seasons, joining North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State, and South Carolina."

I don't think that is factual Coastal has won at least 40 the last 6 seasons

[rokamortis]

Local paper has this little tidbit this morning:

"Mercer is one of five programs nationally to [B]average 38 wins through the past five seasons, joining North Carolina, Virginia, Florida State, and South Carolina."

Not sure if that is accurate. Coastal should be listed as well and there may be more.

Coastal Baseball wins
2012-13: 36 wins
2011-12: 42 wins
2010-11: 42 wins
2009-10: 55 wins
2008-09: 47 wins
2007-08: 50 wins

[CID1990]

With the exception of four years with Curry, Davidson has only shone because of the absolute crappy backdrop that is SoCon basketball. If they had been playing Mercer every year they'd be about .500 against each other.

Mercer's bball might drop off a little if they make enough of a commitment to football to be competitive, but then that is precisely why we shouldn't have associate members.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[asumike83]

Mercer's bball might drop off a little if they make enough of a commitment to football to be competitive, but then that is precisely why we shouldn't have associate members.

I was just going to mention that as well. Once Mercer has to fund 63 football scholarships, what effect will that have on the basketball budget? Same goes for ETSU.

IMO, once Mercer joins the SoCon and funds scholarship football, they will be the best basketball program in the SoCon but still a drop-off from Davidson. Also, just to be clear, I'm not sure that is a bad thing if it means a competitive football program. I don't agree with Davidson's membership in the SoCon without football but regardless of the circumstances, their basketball presence will not be completely replaced by Mercer.

[asumike83]

They will still be the third best conference simply because there are still good teams. Wofford was still a few plays from beating the national champs on the road in the playoffs. Samford, UTC, and the Citadel will all three be playoff contenders. Probably won't happen this season, but Furman has rebuilt with a lot of young talent and will be back in the national conversation soon enough.

You and I are just going to have to disagree on the basketball. The only current SoCon team I would compare as an equal to Mercer is Davidson. ETSU and VMI are not as good, but they are both going to be fine in the conference. You cannot forget the SoCon is an awful basketball conference, and each of these three teams is an improvement.

It would be a better basketball conference with Davidson. If you have to lose Davidson, though, the SoCon is replacing them with probably the best available mid-major basketball program in the Southeast in Mercer.

There are good teams but I'm not sure how it could be argued that replacing App, GSU and Elon with VMI, ETSU and Mercer will not move the conference (at least temporarily) down the totem pole. I'm assuming the MVFC and CAA are the two conferences you have ahead of the SoCon. The Big Sky (Montana, Montana State, Eastern Washington, Cal Poly, NAU) is clearly ahead of the new line-up, IMO. Also, an argument could be made for the Southland (Sam Houston, Central Arkansas, McNeese).

I suppose it depends on what you mean when you say that "the SoCon is an awful basketball conference and each of these three are an improvement". If you mean that they improve the post-deflection SoCon then yes, I completely agree. Mercer is about as good a replacement as there is out there, ETSU has a solid program as well. However, if you mean that they improve the conference over what it was with Davidson, Charleston, Elon and App, then I disagree.

[PaladinFan]

There are good teams but I'm not sure how it could be argued that replacing App, GSU and Elon with VMI, ETSU and Mercer will not move the conference (at least temporarily) down the totem pole. I'm assuming the MVFC and CAA are the two conferences you have ahead of the SoCon. The Big Sky (Montana, Montana State, Eastern Washington, Cal Poly, NAU) is clearly ahead of the new line-up, IMO. Also, an argument could be made for the Southland (Sam Houston, Central Arkansas, McNeese).

I suppose it depends on what you mean when you say that "the SoCon is an awful basketball conference and each of these three are an improvement". If you mean that they improve the post-deflection SoCon then yes, I completely agree. Mercer is about as good a replacement as there is out there, ETSU has a solid program as well. However, if you mean that they improve the conference over what it was with Davidson, Charleston, Elon and App, then I disagree.

With a 20 team playoff, do you see a world where the SoCon does not get at least two teams in, likely three? How is that any different than the current scenario? You just replace the conference representatives with someone else.

Look at it this way, in 2012 you had six teams finish with a winning record. Now, by replacing teams with new programs, you are virtually guaranteeing the top of the conference will remain the top, and pick up two or more wins per year. So, while the overall "talent" in the conference may shift because of GSU and App leaving (notwithstanding App got sandblasted a few times last season), you now might see in 2014 a 10-1 Wofford instead of an 8-3 Wofford. A 9-2 Citadel instead of a 7-4 Citadel.

The conference is going to simply go back to what it was in the early 2000s. A big gap between the top and the bottom of the conference, but the top of the conference will rack up enough wins to be top 10 every single season. Will they pull in a bunch of Championships? Probably not. Still, I think the average fan from a macroeconomic perspective is not going to see a difference.

[PaladinFan]

I was just going to mention that as well. Once Mercer has to fund 63 football scholarships, what effect will that have on the basketball budget? Same goes for ETSU.

IMO, once Mercer joins the SoCon and funds scholarship football, they will be the best basketball program in the SoCon but still a drop-off from Davidson. Also, just to be clear, I'm not sure that is a bad thing if it means a competitive football program. I don't agree with Davidson's membership in the SoCon without football but regardless of the circumstances, their basketball presence will not be completely replaced by Mercer.

Mercer has a lot of money. A lot more money than most of the current SoCon.

For instance, here's a ranking of the top law schools by endowment (http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2006/09/top_20_law_scho.html). Mercer is 16th, falling just behind Georgetown. To put it another way, Mercer has one graduate program with more money in the bank than most of the public schools in the SoCon have for the entire university.

If they didn't think they could swing it financially, I don't think they'd make the move.

[asumike83]

With a 20 team playoff, do you see a world where the SoCon does not get at least two teams in, likely three? How is that any different than the current scenario? You just replace the conference representatives with someone else.

Look at it this way, in 2012 you had six teams finish with a winning record. Now, by replacing teams with new programs, you are virtually guaranteeing the top of the conference will remain the top, and pick up two or more wins per year. So, while the overall "talent" in the conference may shift because of GSU and App leaving (notwithstanding App got sandblasted a few times last season), you now might see in 2014 a 10-1 Wofford instead of an 8-3 Wofford. A 9-2 Citadel instead of a 7-4 Citadel.

The conference is going to simply go back to what it was in the early 2000s. A big gap between the top and the bottom of the conference, but the top of the conference will rack up enough wins to be top 10 every single season. Will they pull in a bunch of Championships? Probably not. Still, I think the average fan from a macroeconomic perspective is not going to see a difference.

That is a different conversation. I don't disagree that the SoCon will still be a multi-bid league and certainly, someone will step up and win those games, likely UTC and El Cid. However, I do not think it will remain a top 3 FCS conference (at least not immediately), which was your initial comment that I was responding to.

Not that it matters, but App only got blasted once last year in FCS competition, by the Citadel. App lead Wofford going to the 4th and had the game iced on a late defensive TD that put them up by 10. Not a blowout by any stretch.

[Saint3333]

Merced isn't the addition I'd be concerned about.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is no reason to believe that Wofford will suddenly suck because App and Georgia Southern aren't in the SoCon anymore, which appears to be the untenable argument proposed by the App and GeSo folks. There's also Samford and The Citadel, who were pretty close to the top echelon.

It took all of one year for Georgia Southern to get a national championship once Marshall left the SoCon, to be replaced by Wofford. The SoCon will be fine.

[ASUMountaineer]

I don't know, it seems that everybody we kick out comes back.

Good point.

[asumike83]

There is no reason to believe that Wofford will suddenly suck because App and Georgia Southern aren't in the SoCon anymore, which appears to be the untenable argument proposed by the App and GeSo folks. There's also Samford and The Citadel, who were pretty close to the top echelon.

It took all of one year for Georgia Southern to get a national championship once Marshall left the SoCon, to be replaced by Wofford. The SoCon will be fine.

What are you talking about? Who said Wofford is suddenly going to suck? The argument is that replacing App, GSU and Elon with VMI, ETSU and Mercer will hurt SoCon football. It will.

Yes, it took GSU one year to get a national championship once Marshall left. However, you conveniently fail to mention that they already had FOUR.

[ASUMountaineer]

Every one of those schools is getting a look because they either have football, or are joining with scholarship football as a condition of membership. So whether they are "good" football schools currently is immaterial. They will play football in the conference while the associate members are leaving. That is not moving away from being football centric.

So, they will have a conditional membership. I assume that condition will have a timeframe attached to it. If so, what happens if ETSU and/or Mercer don't meet the condition? Will the SoCon rescind the membership, and go fishing again? Will they allow them to remain as associate members?

[superman7515]

So, they will have a conditional membership. I assume that condition will have a timeframe attached to it. If so, what happens if ETSU and/or Mercer don't meet the condition? Will the SoCon rescind the membership, and go fishing again? Will they allow them to remain as associate members?

See UMES. Readmitted to the MEAC under the written condition they reinstate football within 5 years. 30+ years later, still no football.

[ASUMountaineer]

There is no reason to believe that Wofford will suddenly suck because App and Georgia Southern aren't in the SoCon anymore, which appears to be the untenable argument proposed by the App and GeSo folks. There's also Samford and The Citadel, who were pretty close to the top echelon.

It took all of one year for Georgia Southern to get a national championship once Marshall left the SoCon, to be replaced by Wofford. The SoCon will be fine.

It's amazing that that's what you took from all of those posts. To me, it is clear that most App and GSU folks believe WoCo will now be the big dog in football, but that football could suffer a temporary slide in conference strength with the departures of App and GSU. I don't think that's an unreasonable thought. xcoffeex

[ASUMountaineer]

What are you talking about? Who said Wofford is suddenly going to suck? The argument is that replacing App, GSU and Elon with VMI, ETSU and Mercer will hurt SoCon football. It will.

Yes, it took GSU one year to get a national championship once Marshall left. However, you conveniently fail to mention that they already had FOUR.

xlolx

[ASUMountaineer]

See UMES. Readmitted to the MEAC under the written condition they reinstate football within 5 years. 30+ years later, still no football.

That's kind of what I could see happening, unless the SoCon decides to go after PC and GWU.

[CID1990]

See UMES. Readmitted to the MEAC under the written condition they reinstate football within 5 years. 30+ years later, still no football.

That is always a risk. That said, ETSU already appears to be making the financial commitment, and was doing so prior to any sniff from any conference. That's a pretty good indicator. Mercer is also obviously serious about restarting football, albeit at the non-scholarship level. However, their physical plant changes are certainly indicative of being serious about football, and having Bobby Lamb on board ain't too shabby either. I'd say that if there was a chance of one of these two schools reneging on football it would be Mercer, but even if they did the SoCon still will have replaced two football schools with two football schools.

[cmaxwellgsu]

There is no reason to believe that Wofford will suddenly suck because App and Georgia Southern aren't in the SoCon anymore, which appears to be the untenable argument proposed by the App and GeSo folks. There's also Samford and The Citadel, who were pretty close to the top echelon.

It took all of one year for Georgia Southern to get a national championship once Marshall left the SoCon, to be replaced by Wofford. The SoCon will be fine.


Strange turn out of left field even for you. If anything, Wofford will step up somewhat. For the past couple of years, they have split their games against us and App. I don't see any way that Wofford would be affected in recruiting. They tend to get unheralded athletes, and turn them into one hell of an overachieving group. That wouldn't change if we were staying or going.

[Apphole]

Strange turn out of left field even for you. If anything, Wofford will step up somewhat. For the past couple of years, they have split their games against us and App. I don't see any way that Wofford would be affected in recruiting. They tend to get unheralded athletes, and turn them into one hell of an overachieving group. That wouldn't change if we were staying or going.

Wofford won't fall off till Ayers retires.

[PaladinFan]

Strange turn out of left field even for you. If anything, Wofford will step up somewhat. For the past couple of years, they have split their games against us and App. I don't see any way that Wofford would be affected in recruiting. They tend to get unheralded athletes, and turn them into one hell of an overachieving group. That wouldn't change if we were staying or going.

It wasn't that long ago that GSU could not beat Wofford to save the South. That's changed a bit recently.

[AppMan]

Sparky Woods returns to the conference where he had his greatest success. Best of luck old friend.

[CID1990]

Sparky Woods returns to the conference where he had his greatest success. Best of luck old friend.

He beat El Cid more with ASU than he did with the Gamecocks lol


Sent from the center of the universe.

[cmaxwellgsu]

It wasn't that long ago that GSU could not beat Wofford to save the South. That's changed a bit recently.

Wofford had Sewak's number, and then went 3-1 against in our dark years. Luckily, Monken has been able to beat them more often than not. He's only made it look easy once. I don't see them losing their toughness.

[seantaylor]

It wasn't that long ago that GSU could not beat Wofford to save the South. That's changed a bit recently.

What? Wofford won a couple of games in a row during the end of the Sewak years into the VG and Hatcher years. Check out the all time record.

[PaladinFan]

What? Wofford won a couple of games in a row during the end of the Sewak years into the VG and Hatcher years. Check out the all time record.

I'm not talking about all time records. Furman's all time record against Wofford is heavily one sided. That doesn't mean they don't have our number right now.

There were a few years in the early-mid 2000s where GSU struggled to beat Wofford what seemed like every single season. These were not bad GSU teams either.

[kdinva]

I know this is a "football board", but, for the 2014-15 basketball season, what would the SoCon "travel partners" chart look like?

VMI & UNCG
ETSU & WCU
Furman & Wofford
Samford & UTC
Mercer & Citadel

?

[walliver]

I know this is a "football board", but, for the 2013-14 basketball season, what would the SoCon "travel partners" chart look like?

VMI & UNCG
ETSU & WCU
Furman & Wofford
Samford & UTC
Mercer & Citadel

?

I assume you mean 2014-2015 season.
Only CofC is leaving this summer.

[CID1990]

Only CofC is leaving this summer.

Their last hurrah was today!

First got beaten by GSU, and then Elon stomped a mudhole in their a$$es in the SoCon tournament today. Enjoy the CAA, girls!

[asumike83]

Their last hurrah was today!

First got beaten by GSU, and then Elon stomped a mudhole in their a$$es in the SoCon tournament today. Enjoy the CAA, girls!

Pretty surprising after Elon was absolutely drubbed by Furman in the opener. They lose to a team they just swept and then get blown out about 3 hours later. Rough day, was that their last conference tournament in any sport as a SoCon member?

[CID1990]

Pretty surprising after Elon was absolutely drubbed by Furman in the opener. They lose to a team they just swept and then get blown out about 3 hours later. Rough day, was that their last conference tournament in any sport as a SoCon member?

I think so.

And in the words of Gollum:

"We hates them"

Good riddance to a worthless athletic program.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Reign of Terrier]

Wofford beat a pretty good GSU team @GSU in 2002, and then knocked GSU out of playoff contention in 2003, there are instances where we have beaten good GSU teams, or have played them well at least.

[kdinva]

I assume you mean 2014-2015 season.
Only CofC is leaving this summer.
thanks for the catch, fixed my post.