SoCon should just add Coastal should Elon bolt

[catamount man]

SoCon

The Citadel
UT-Chattanooga
WCU
Furman
Wofford
Samford
VMI
ETSU
Mercer
Coastal

10 schools, all football. 8 conference games, rotate 1 each year OR 9 conf games and just 2 non-conf. One FBS and one D2. Makes sense to me. I could live with this conference.

[CID1990]

If Lenoir Rhyne and UNC-A had comparable athletic programs to CCU, how would you feel about adding them?

[DoWe]

What happens to UNC-G?

[catamount man]

If Lenoir Rhyne and UNC-A had comparable athletic programs to CCU, how would you feel about adding them?

But they don't, so case closed. Why is Citadel so scared of CCU? You boys have had a boner for them since day 1!

[The Cats]

The SoCon should add CCU regardless of what Elon does.

[The Cats]

What happens to UNC-G?

UNCG like Western, has no place to go.

So, we'll both be here in the SoCon 'till they turn the lights out.

[catamount man]

UNCG like Western, has no place to go.

So, we'll both be here in the SoCon 'till they turn the lights out.

FWIW, I couldn't care less what UNC-G does. This is all about FOOTBALL, despite what Iamirino says. Those 10 schools I mentioned in a football conference would offer some damn good football. I don't hate ASU and they are doing what is best for them. My App friends know that I am rooting for them from afar, but as far as WCU goes, the new SoCon that I have offered does offer the CATS a better chance of winning. GO CATS!

[CID1990]

But they don't, so case closed. Why is Citadel so scared of CCU? You boys have had a boner for them since day 1!

That you won't answer the question speaks volumes.

NONE of the SC schools are in favor of CCU. The Citadel is opposed to CCU for the very same reasons that Furman and Wofford are opposed to CCU. There are already 3 SC schools in the SoCon.

I'll answer the question for you: for all the pontificating, WCU would be opposed to L-R, Brevard, or UNC-A in the SoCon if those schools had existing FCS football programs for the same reason the SC schools are opposed to CCU. I do not personally have a boner for CCU, I am merely stating the reasons CCU will not get an invite. You disagree, that's fine, but your logic does not dovetail with that of the conference. So you can spill ink over it forever, or forget it and drive on.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[MplsBison]

Or the CAA adds Stony Brook and Albany as all-sports members and therefore Elon does not leave the conference.

That's 8 members with Greensboro not having football. Sounds like ETSU and Mercer will come over from Atlantic Sun with new football programs? 10 total, 9 football - usually works good for scheduling.

Sorry, not trying to shut out VMI. They could well be invited.

[CID1990]

Or the CAA adds Stony Brook and Albany as all-sports members and therefore Elon does not leave the conference.

That's 8 members with Greensboro not having football. Sounds like ETSU and Mercer will come over from Atlantic Sun with new football programs? 10 total, 9 football - usually works good for scheduling.

Sorry, not trying to shut out VMI. They could well be invited.

I'm not versed on what the CAA might do, but what you have described is probably accurate on the SoCon landscape. VMI will also almost certainly get an invite.

That said, all three schools are probably going to have to make some guarantees as a condition of their membership. ETSU is going to have to commit to a facilities upgrade (which I think they are already doing... that old indoor stadium they had us a total dump).

Mercer will likely have to commit to scholarship football by a certain date, I imagine 2015 will be bandied about. They will start out in the Pioneer League but their tenure there will probably only be 2-3 years.

VMI will likely be required to make some internal adjustments in terms of their student athlete policies governing the football team, as well as other capital adjustments. VMI has been its own worst enemy in football competitiveness in terms of the practice restrictions (among other things) they put on the football team. With a few adjustments in that area I think they could easily be competitive again. I am fairly certain that their membership will be contingent on making some of those adjustments.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[The Cats]

With a few adjustments in that area I think they could easily be competitive again.


Yeah, I'm sure they will be conference champions with in a couple years. xbangx

[DoWe]

I'm not versed on what the CAA might do, but what you have described is probably accurate on the SoCon landscape. VMI will also almost certainly get an invite.

That said, all three schools are probably going to have to make some guarantees as a condition of their membership. ETSU is going to have to commit to a facilities upgrade (which I think they are already doing... that old indoor stadium they had us a total dump).

Mercer will likely have to commit to scholarship football by a certain date, I imagine 2015 will be bandied about. They will start out in the Pioneer League but their tenure there will probably only be 2-3 years.

VMI will likely be required to make some internal adjustments in terms of their student athlete policies governing the football team, as well as other capital adjustments. VMI has been its own worst enemy in football competitiveness in terms of the practice restrictions (among other things) they put on the football team. With a few adjustments in that area I think they could easily be competitive again. I am fairly certain that their membership will be contingent on making some of those adjustments.


You are by any measure a VMI apologist. It would be in the SoCon's best interests to add CCU and let the Citadel take CCU's place in the Big South. That way you get your wish to be in the same conference with VMI, and the SoCon does not have 4 SC schools. As Guinness would say, brilliant!

[kdinva]

VMI will likely be required to make some internal adjustments in terms of their student athlete policies governing the football team. VMI has been its own worst enemy in football competitiveness in terms of the practice restrictions (among other things) they put on the football team. With a few adjustments in that area

I think now the VMI leadership (not the A.D., who has wanted change but hasn't been a "squeaky wheel") is realizing that all 90 guys on the FB roster don't want to be career soldiers, and are considering some good tweaks of life on The Hill, that won't harm the "VMI way".......VMI's FB facilities are 5x better than in 2000 thanks to a generous gift by one alumnus in 2006. VMI doesn't have the space for a multi-million FB building in one end zone, like the citadel, W&M, ga. southern has. But we're pretty happy with what we have. VMI would love to have more donations to help recruit more out of state prospects, maybe a move to the SoCon would open some wallets.

[kdinva]

Yeah, I'm sure they will be conference champions with in a couple years.

no, but we are as fed up with the on the field results as those in Cullowhee.......

[CID1990]

You are by any measure a VMI apologist. It would be in the SoCon's best interests to add CCU and let the Citadel take CCU's place in the Big South. That way you get your wish to be in the same conference with VMI, and the SoCon does not have 4 SC schools. As Guinness would say, brilliant!

The butthurt runs deep with you and Cats.

A WCU fan making fun if another college's football program. I'm not entirely positive it's not Cats just having fun.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[zilla]

NONE of the SC schools are in favor of CCU. The Citadel is opposed to CCU for the very same reasons that Furman and Wofford are opposed to CCU. There are already 3 SC schools in the SoCon.

Just to play devil's advocate - if it's a geographical overload issue, why were Cit, Woff, & FU in favor of admitting CofC back in the late 90s?

[DoWe]

Just to play devil's advocate - if it's a geographical overload issue, why were Cit, Woff, & FU in favor of admitting CofC back in the late 90s?

Once again, the bellhops can take the Chants' place in the Big South, therefore avoiding the suggested geographic overload. Why should the SoCon camber to the Citadel's desires? This should not be about serving long-time members' historical interests, but it should be about what's in the SoCons' best interests moving forward.

[CID1990]

Just to play devil's advocate - if it's a geographical overload issue, why were Cit, Woff, & FU in favor of admitting CofC back in the late 90s?

Because cofc doesn't play football.

If CCU didn't play football they might well be getting a look, but then some people are opposed to the non-football schools also.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

Once again, the bellhops can take the Chants' place in the Big South, therefore avoiding the suggested geographic overload. Why should the SoCon camber to the Citadel's desires? This should not be about serving long-time members' historical interests, but it should be about what's in the SoCons' best interests moving forward.

We already put the "The Citadel calls the shots in the SoCon" meme to bed. Try to keep up.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[The Cats]

You are by any measure a VMI apologist. It would be in the SoCon's best interests to add CCU and let the Citadel take CCU's place in the Big South. That way you get your wish to be in the same conference with VMI, and the SoCon does not have 4 SC schools. As Guinness would say, brilliant!


I agree, and, that solves the center of the universe problem as well.

[The Cats]

The butthurt runs deep with you and Cats.

A WCU fan making fun if another college's football program. I'm not entirely positive it's not Cats just having fun.


Sent from the center of the universe.

I think you'll see some solid improvement in the WCU football program this season. Can you say that about VMI? If you can, I'll shut up about VMI. But then again, what about VMI's 3 women's sports sponsored by the SoCon? that can't fly.

[CID1990]

I think you'll see some solid improvement in the WCU football program this season. Can you say that about VMI? I you can, I'll shut up about VMI. But then again, what about VMI 3 women's sports sponsored by the SoCon? that can't fly.

I'm not sure we have more than they do.

As for improvement, I hear that they may be expected to make some basic structural changes to bolster the football program. VMI's football woes of the last 20 years are totally self imposed.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Wewinulose]

I'm not sure we have more than they do.

As for improvement, I hear that they may be expected to make some basic structural changes to bolster the football program. VMI's football woes of the last 20 years are totally self imposed.


Sent from the center of the universe.

My first post, I just can't take this any longer. Ive been watching from a far... long before joining AGS and Ive just got to say Bull****! The local Citadel crap about Coastal is fear. Coastal would drive you back behind the stone walls you hide behide. Tell the truth, you don't what to face the Chants. You'll get on this site and CSB and run your mouth.... but never say "we should play CCU." If you are scared, say you're scared. It makes me sick to read how you are the SoCon tell all that CCU will never get into the SoCon. Seriously, you don't know CCU football and if you did, you wouldnt rip on the school as often as you do.

Yea, you jerked my chain, causing me to post. I have nothing against the Citadel. My son has two friends that go there and I am good friends with two alum. But your remarks and suggestions that you are better because of academics is a joke. This is a case of numbers do lie. I expect you to show me some stats about this and that.....I know kids that went there that could barely graduate from HS, didnt go for sports. Stone walls hide alot.... play football.... lets see what ya got.

[CID1990]

My first post, I just can't take this any longer. Ive been watching from a far... long before joining AGS and Ive just got to say Bull****! The local Citadel crap about Coastal is fear. Coastal would drive you back behind the stone walls you hide behide. Tell the truth, you don't what to face the Chants. You'll get on this site and CSB and run your mouth.... but never say "we should play CCU." If you are scared, say you're scared. It makes me sick to read how you are the SoCon tell all that CCU will never get into the SoCon. Seriously, you don't know CCU football and if you did, you wouldnt rip on the school as often as you do.

Yea, you jerked my chain, causing me to post. I have nothing against the school. My son has two friends that go there and I am good friends with two alum. But your remarks and suggestions that you are better because of academics is a joke. This is a case of numbers do lie. I expect you to show me some stats about this and that.....I know kids that went there that could barely graduate from HS, didnt go for sports. Stone walls hide alot.... play football.... lets see what ya got.

First of all, nobody us scared to play CCU. We have been looking to get them on the schedule for some time, and they are on the 2014 schedule.

Second, The Citadel is not the only school opposed to CCU's membership in the SoCon. If you could read you would already know that. The Citadel has one vote just like everyone else.

Third, I have simply stated why they are not getting an invite. People may disagree, but that's another topic. They are not getting invited primarily because there are already 3 football playing schools from SC in the conference, AND their academic profile is a concern. Nobody is offering any other plausible reasons why CCU'S isn't getting a look (and the idea that one college is simply "afraid" of another is something a 14 year old might find reasonable but not those of us who inhabit the real world).

CCU might well wind up in the conference one day but right now a MAJORITY of SoCon schools are saying no. So you can either unbunch your panties and get over it or not. Up to you.

Besides, I don't see the why CCU would want to come to a conference that is so obviously dying and will surely be defunct in a year or two, anyway.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Wewinulose]

First of all, nobody us scared to play CCU. We have been looking to get them on the schedule for some time, and they are on the 2014 schedule.

Second, The Citadel is not the only school opposed to CCU's membership in the SoCon. If you could read you would already know that. The Citadel has one vote just like everyone else.

Third, I have simply stated why they are not getting an invite. People may disagree, but that's another topic. They are not getting invited primarily because there are already 3 football playing schools from SC in the conference, AND their academic profile is a concern. Nobody is offering any other plausible reasons why CCU'S isn't getting a look (and the idea that one college is simply "afraid" of another is something a 14 year old might find reasonable but not those of us who inhabit the real world).

CCU might well wind up in the conference one day but right now a MAJORITY of SoCon schools are saying no. So you can either unbunch your panties and get over it or not. Up to you.

Besides, I don't see the why CCU would want to come to a conference that is so obviously dying and will surely be defunct in a year or two, anyway.


Sent from the center of the universe.

First, you are afraid for CID to play CCU.
Your second, do you have inside knowledge of votes. Because if you do, Im sure someone is going to be up your backside for sharing. Im gonna say "you sir are a wannabe"... that shares imaginary friends suggestions. Because if you were seriously in the know, you wouldnt be spending your time on a blog board.
Your third...CCU academic concerns. You have got to be kidding me. I sir... know what you allow into your school. If you do a little research, you'll find CCU's players to be some of the best students in the Big South. CCU has a short history and is getting better academically every year. You have a hypocrisy that might not show to the west coast guys but to the rest of us its lucid. Im not 14... Im refering to you and your support for a team. You sir are afraid that if your team plays upstart CCU, that you will get your a''' handed to you.
Lastly, CCU wants to be in the SoCon so it can kick your teams a$$ everytime they play...behind the stonewalls or in the open air.

[CID1990]

First, you are afraid for CID to play CCU.
Your second, do you have inside knowledge of votes. Because if you do, Im sure someone is going to be up your backside for sharing. Im gonna say "you sir are a wannabe"... that shares imaginary friends suggestions. Because if you were seriously in the know, you wouldnt be spending your time on a blog board.
Your third...CCU academic concerns. You have got to be kidding me. I sir... know what you allow into your school. If you do a little research, you'll find CCU's players to be some of the best students in the Big South. CCU has a short history and is getting better academically every year. You have a hypocrisy that might not show to the west coast guys but to the rest of us its lucid. Im not 14... Im refering to you and your support for a team. You sir are afraid that if your team plays upstart CCU, that you will get your a''' handed to you.
Lastly, CCU wants to be in the SoCon so it can kick your teams a$$ everytime they play...behind the stonewalls or in the open air.

Ok, Sweetie. Nobody was trying to hurt your feelings. You can rant and rave all you want and be as insulting as you like.

I'll leave you with one thing: you don't have to be an insider to know that CCU doesn't have the votes. It's real simple. CCU hasn't gotten a look, ergo, they don't have the votes. It is no secret that the private schools are opposed, as is The Citadel.

Secondly, I find it ironic that someone with grammar and punctuation as atrocious as yours can actually try to start a pissing match over academics with a straight face.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[asumike83]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=-oGlWaqxEYY&NR=1

[asumike83]

Maybe this has already been specifically discussed and I missed it among all the conference realignment talk but here is my question: I know the opposition to CCU stems primarily from not wanting a fourth SC school but why exactly is that a problem?

The SoCon has always been heavily based in the Carolinas and for the last decade or so, has housed 5 NC schools (App, Western, Elon, Davidson, UNCG) and 4 SC schools (El Cid, Furman, Wofford, CofC), albeit only 3 in each state that play football. With App, Davidson, CofC and likely Elon out the door, what damage does adding another SC school do?

If it was circa 2003 and CCU was a start-up, I could certainly understand not wanting to extend the olive branch to an SC school and adding 63 more football scholarships in the state. In this case, Coastal is already playing competitive FCS football and fighting with SoCon schools for recruits about as much as they would if they were in the conference.

Football aside, it would be great for SoCon baseball. I know it isn't the money-maker but the conference has a rich history in baseball. Losing GSU, Elon, Charleston and App would be a hit there and bringing in Mercer and Coastal would keep the SoCon as one of the premier mid-major DI baseball conferences.

[kdinva]

But then again, what about VMI's 3 women's sports sponsored by the SoCon? that can't fly.

VMI sponsors the NCAA/Title 9 minimum of seven women's sports........when they added water polo 4 years ago, this SoCon talk was just a dream. With only about 175-190 ladies in school, they believed hoops not an option......at that time. Why doesn't WCU have women's rifle? Seems to be a perfect fit for the Smoky Mountains.

[The Cats]

VMI sponsors the NCAA/Title 9 minimum of seven women's sports........when they added water polo 4 years ago, this SoCon talk was just a dream. With only about 175-190 ladies in school, they believed hoops not an option......at that time. Why doesn't WCU have women's rifle? Seems to be a perfect fit for the Smoky Mountains.

You only offer 3 women's sports that is sponsored by the SoCon.

If the SoCon offered women's rifle it would be relevant, since they don't - it means nothing.


With only about 175-190 ladies in school, Is that the SoCon fault? I guess VMI needs to address that problem before coming to the SoCon.

[CID1990]

Maybe this has already been specifically discussed and I missed it among all the conference realignment talk but here is my question: I know the opposition to CCU stems primarily from not wanting a fourth SC school but why exactly is that a problem?

The SoCon has always been heavily based in the Carolinas and for the last decade or so, has housed 5 NC schools (App, Western, Elon, Davidson, UNCG) and 4 SC schools (El Cid, Furman, Wofford, CofC), albeit only 3 in each state that play football. With App, Davidson, CofC and likely Elon out the door, what damage does adding another SC school do?

If it was circa 2003 and CCU was a start-up, I could certainly understand not wanting to extend the olive branch to an SC school and adding 63 more football scholarships in the state. In this case, Coastal is already playing competitive FCS football and fighting with SoCon schools for recruits about as much as they would if they were in the conference.

Football aside, it would be great for SoCon baseball. I know it isn't the money-maker but the conference has a rich history in baseball. Losing GSU, Elon, Charleston and App would be a hit there and bringing in Mercer and Coastal would keep the SoCon as one of the premier mid-major DI baseball conferences.

You're correct in that respect- in terms of that they are FCS, Coastal does compete with the other FCS schools in the state. There are other contributing issues to this, not the least of which is that the SoCon is a recruiting tool in itself, especially when you stack it up next to the Big South. I have the impression that Coastal would become much more competitive for football recruits in SC if they were in the SoCon. Coastal does make sense in many respects, but there are a lot of intangibles associated with them that I am sure make some of the other ADs and presidents skittish.



Sent from the center of the universe.

[kdinva]

You only offer 3 women's sports that is sponsored by the SoCon. Is that the SoCon fault? I guess VMI needs to address that problem before coming to the SoCon.

it's called "associate memberships", ignorant. VMI water polo belongs to the MAAC, and swimming/diving is with the CCSA.

http://www.theccsa.com/

you don't seem to have a problem with Davidson belonging to this league as an associate member (nor Cof C or Ga. southern, even though they are moving on).

[chargeradio]

Rather than milking Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville dry, the SoCon needs another school in Georgia. Mercer is a good start, and adding Kennesaw State should be next.

Samford, UTC, Mercer, KSU, ETSU, WCU, Furman, Wofford, Citadel, UNCG

[CID1990]

adding Kennesaw State should be next.

I think that is probably what is going to happen.




Sent from the center of the universe.

[The Cats]

it's called "associate memberships", ignorant. VMI water polo belongs to the MAAC, and swimming/diving is with the CCSA.

http://www.theccsa.com/

you don't seem to have a problem with Davidson belonging to this league as an associate member (nor Cof C or Ga. southern, even though they are moving on).

So I'm ignorant now? Well then, that must mean you a dumba$$.

When I say you need to address only having 3 sports that is sponsored by the SoCon, I don't mean what are you going to do with the other three female sports you offer (the SoCon could care less about them).

I mean you will not be voted into the conference offering only three female sports sponsored by the conference.

[sinksdweller05]

Two thoughts re: this new women's sports argument being bandied about: 1) I guess we'll see how the votes shake out; 2) really? Women's sports is now relevant to this discussion?

We've got two weeks to see what happens. Western Carolina should consider joining the Big South. Pick up the natural rivalry with CCU and get in with some other schools with 80% plus acceptance rates.

[catamount man]

Two thoughts re: this new women's sports argument being bandied about: 1) I guess we'll see how the votes shake out; 2) really? Women's sports is now relevant to this discussion?

We've got two weeks to see what happens. Western Carolina should consider joining the Big South. Pick up the natural rivalry with CCU and get in with some other schools with 80% plus acceptance rates.

WCU is not going anywhere and I do extend the hand and welcome VMI back. Looking forward to traveling up I-81 on a gorgeous fall day to watch the CATS and KEYDETS play football. Go Cats! Go SoCon!

[The Cats]

Western Carolina should consider joining the Big South. Pick up the natural rivalry with CCU and get in with some other schools with 80% plus acceptance rates.

You must be talking about the Citadel, numbnuts.....

The Citadel
ADMISSION
Entrance Difficulty Moderately difficult
Overall Admission Rate 77% of 2,523 applicants were admitted
Early Action Offered No
Early Decision Offered No
Regular Admission Deadline Rolling


The Citadel
Charleston, SC
FRESHMAN ADMISSION REQUIREMENTS
Entrance Difficulty
Moderately Difficult: More than 75% of freshmen were in the top 50% of their high school class and scored over 1010 on the SAT I or over 18 on the ACT; about 85% or fewer of all applicants accepted.
High School Preparation
High School Graduation High school diploma required and GED is accepted
High School Program College preparatory program is required
High School Units Required or Recommended
Subject Required Units Recommended Units
English 4
Mathematics 4
Science 3
Foreign Language 2
Social Studies 2
History 1
Academic Electives 1
Examinations
Exam Scores Due in Admissions Office
SAT or ACT Required Not reported
SAT Only
ACT Only
SAT and SAT Subject Tests, or ACT
SAT Subject Tests Only
______________________________________

Per US News

Quick Stats
171 Moultrie Street
Charleston, SC 29409

Phone: (843) 225-3294

2012-2013 Tuition
$11,772 in-state
$30,025 out-of-state

Students
2,477 enrolled
91% male / 9% female

Admissions
rolling admission
76.9% accepted


http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/the-citadel-3423

[kdinva]

I mean you will not be voted into the conference

we'll see.......xsmiley_wix Fall afternoons in Lexington are as nice as in Cullowhee, with the fall foliage coming into color.

[kdinva]

Back to the thread title.........IF Elon goes to the CAA, it's a tossup between CCU and Kennesaw St., IMO........

[The Cats]

we'll see.......xsmiley_wix


Mercer, East Tennessee State and Virginia Military Institute are the top candidates on the Southern Conference’s list of possible additions. Sources have deemed Mercer a veritable lock to be invited to join the league, while opinions remain split on East Tennessee State and VMI, according to sources.

http://www.thetimesnews.com/sports/elon-sports/with-caa-expressing-interest-elon-weighs-options-on-league-affiliation-1.141938

[zilla]

Back to the thread title.........IF Elon goes to the CAA, it's a tossup between CCU and Kennesaw St., IMO........

Not saying you're wrong, & not trying to sound elitist, but seriously - Would the SoCon really add yet another start-up in Kennesaw State?

I personally believe that the league will add two non-football schools after Elon leaves (UNCA probably being one of the two) to get back to the 9/12 model as before.

[CID1990]

I personally believe that the league will add two non-football schools after Elon leaves (UNCA probably being one of the two) to get back to the 9/12 model as before.

Argh I hope you're wrong but you might be right. Never liked the associate membership crap.




Sent from the center of the universe.

[PaladinFan]

You're correct in that respect- in terms of that they are FCS, Coastal does compete with the other FCS schools in the state. There are other contributing issues to this, not the least of which is that the SoCon is a recruiting tool in itself, especially when you stack it up next to the Big South. I have the impression that Coastal would become much more competitive for football recruits in SC if they were in the SoCon. Coastal does make sense in many respects, but there are a lot of intangibles associated with them that I am sure make some of the other ADs and presidents skittish.



Sent from the center of the universe.

I think being a fourth South Carolina school has something to do with it, but not everything. My personal feeling is that it also has to do with money.

I noted this a few months ago, but just an internet scan indicates Coastal's endowment is somewhere around $18m. Without seeing audited financial statements (or having the time to read them even if I had), the initial thing is that current conference schools have endowments that far exceed Coastal's. I use the term loosely, but the "poorest" SoCon school has been Georgia Southern, and even they had an endowment twice that of Coastal's, but still a tiny fraction of what is in the coffers at a Furman, Samford, or the Citadel.

I do not know much about how conference's "work." I do imagine there are times when the schools have to pass the hat. The conference is a club, it is a partnership, it requires money to make money. If (for instance) the SoCon wanted a teal with SportsSouth, and every conference member had to put in $x.00 - could Coastal do it? Does a school like Furman have to be a de facto lender?

I might be wrong, but it just seems that if you have a partnership that is designed to make money, you want partners that can carry their weight. So, for me personally, I think the issue with Coastal is less about being a public school or being in South Carolina. Those are just red herrings. My guess is that current conference membership is uneasy about whether these cats can stand and deliver if called upon.

[rokamortis]

I think being a fourth South Carolina school has something to do with it, but not everything. My personal feeling is that it also has to do with money.

I noted this a few months ago, but just an internet scan indicates Coastal's endowment is somewhere around $18m. Without seeing audited financial statements (or having the time to read them even if I had), the initial thing is that current conference schools have endowments that far exceed Coastal's. I use the term loosely, but the "poorest" SoCon school has been Georgia Southern, and even they had an endowment twice that of Coastal's, but still a tiny fraction of what is in the coffers at a Furman, Samford, or the Citadel.

I do not know much about how conference's "work." I do imagine there are times when the schools have to pass the hat. The conference is a club, it is a partnership, it requires money to make money. If (for instance) the SoCon wanted a teal with SportsSouth, and every conference member had to put in $x.00 - could Coastal do it? Does a school like Furman have to be a de facto lender?

I might be wrong, but it just seems that if you have a partnership that is designed to make money, you want partners that can carry their weight. So, for me personally, I think the issue with Coastal is less about being a public school or being in South Carolina. Those are just red herrings. My guess is that current conference membership is uneasy about whether these cats can stand and deliver if called upon.

Endowed funds are typically earmarked for specific uses - like scholarships. So just because a school has a large endowment doesn't mean they can easily dip into it for whatever reason.

Coastal is only 60 years old, and really only independent since 1993 so about 20 years old in that regard. Coastal has had to spend a lot of its money (other than the endowed funds) to build itself where other schools have done so years ago and are able to invest and grow.

[Eagle22]

I think being a fourth South Carolina school has something to do with it, but not everything. My personal feeling is that it also has to do with money.

I noted this a few months ago, but just an internet scan indicates Coastal's endowment is somewhere around $18m. Without seeing audited financial statements (or having the time to read them even if I had), the initial thing is that current conference schools have endowments that far exceed Coastal's. I use the term loosely, but the "poorest" SoCon school has been Georgia Southern, and even they had an endowment twice that of Coastal's, but still a tiny fraction of what is in the coffers at a Furman, Samford, or the Citadel.

I do not know much about how conference's "work." I do imagine there are times when the schools have to pass the hat. The conference is a club, it is a partnership, it requires money to make money. If (for instance) the SoCon wanted a teal with SportsSouth, and every conference member had to put in $x.00 - could Coastal do it? Does a school like Furman have to be a de facto lender?

I might be wrong, but it just seems that if you have a partnership that is designed to make money, you want partners that can carry their weight. So, for me personally, I think the issue with Coastal is less about being a public school or being in South Carolina. Those are just red herrings. My guess is that current conference membership is uneasy about whether these cats can stand and deliver if called upon.

Nice "cat" reference at the end, lol.

Let's just be clear about a couple of things though. While I will not deny that membership has a price and that perhaps CCU can't handle that, if the SoCon leadership were intent on trying to stave off some of the degradation of their football product they would add CCU post haste. Even if CCU had grand designs on FBS and weren't a long time member, they'd likely be there a minimum of ten years and would afford the conference some stability. The funny thing I read is how some of the fans of remaining teams would now take Jacksonville State in a heartbeat when ten years ago they weren't considered compatible with SoCon membership (the league took Samford instead).

While CCU has been the recipient of the Big South autobid, they have in fact gone to the FCS playoffs more than any of the remaining SoCon teams not named Wofford or Furman. They might instantly become one of the infamous "Big 3" in the void left by Georgia Southern and Appalachian State. If not, I suppose Citadel or UTC finally gets to the playoffs with some regularity. Of course that assumes that Furman returns to form.

A slow drive-by of SoCon messageboards will demonstrate a surprising amount of glee that resonates with some of the constituents in that now perhaps, their team has a chance ! So much for competition, which in my humble opinion is likely the biggest basis for keeping CCU out.

While I would agree the SoCon is about making money, I think they have done a pretty woeful job of doing so ... and perhaps adding another South Carolina school would actually help keep some of that money in the membership pockets in the first place, at least in the form of covering the 'footprint'. When VMI was ejected during a prior administration, few lamented about the constriction of the footprint.

The SoCon is only worried about hitting the ball in the fairway. They haven't been out driving long in quite some time, and in this case that is exactly what they need to do. They have perpetually laid up short. I've been reading a lot of folks saying the SoCon will endure. That is the appropriate word.

[walliver]

I don't like the idea of a weaker league.

The last two years, Wofford has gone to the playoffs with only 7 D-I wins, not only beating out teams with more wins, but getting a first round bye. The short explanation of that is that in both years we beat App State. In the new SoCon, it will be more difficult to come up with a marquee win.

[The Cats]

....... My personal feeling is that it also has to do with money.

We might be talking apples and oranges here, but the CCU athletic budget in 2012 was $22 million - twice that of Georgia Southern and WCU

YEAR TICKET SALES CONTRIBUTIONS RIGHT LICENSING STUDENT FEES SCHOOL FUNDS OTHER TOTAL REVENUES
2012 $392,888 $1,001,828 $1,782,508 $3,877,250 $14,422,445 $815,678 $22,292,597


If anything, the SC schools are more afraid of this than they are of having another SC school in the conference.

[CID1990]

We might be talking apples and oranges here, but the CCU athletic budget in 2012 was $22 million - twice that of Georgia Southern and WCU

YEAR TICKET SALES CONTRIBUTIONS RIGHT LICENSING STUDENT FEES SCHOOL FUNDS OTHER TOTAL REVENUES
2012 $392,888 $1,001,828 $1,782,508 $3,877,250 $14,422,445 $815,678 $22,292,597


If anything, the SC schools are more afraid of this than they are of having another SC school in the conference.

This has been brought up before. Furman, Wofford, Samford, Elon, The Citadel, and possibly even WCU and UTC devote a larger percentage of their total revenue to areas other than athletics than CCU does. Just another non-athletic factor that makes CCU an outlier, and probably less attractive than the schools that appear to be getting invited. It shouldn't come as a surprise that member schools in any conference like the SoCon would prefer schools that resemble them in those terms.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[PaladinFan]

Nice "cat" reference at the end, lol.

Let's just be clear about a couple of things though. While I will not deny that membership has a price and that perhaps CCU can't handle that, if the SoCon leadership were intent on trying to stave off some of the degradation of their football product they would add CCU post haste. Even if CCU had grand designs on FBS and weren't a long time member, they'd likely be there a minimum of ten years and would afford the conference some stability. The funny thing I read is how some of the fans of remaining teams would now take Jacksonville State in a heartbeat when ten years ago they weren't considered compatible with SoCon membership (the league took Samford instead).

While CCU has been the recipient of the Big South autobid, they have in fact gone to the FCS playoffs more than any of the remaining SoCon teams not named Wofford or Furman. They might instantly become one of the infamous "Big 3" in the void left by Georgia Southern and Appalachian State. If not, I suppose Citadel or UTC finally gets to the playoffs with some regularity. Of course that assumes that Furman returns to form.

A slow drive-by of SoCon messageboards will demonstrate a surprising amount of glee that resonates with some of the constituents in that now perhaps, their team has a chance ! So much for competition, which in my humble opinion is likely the biggest basis for keeping CCU out.

While I would agree the SoCon is about making money, I think they have done a pretty woeful job of doing so ... and perhaps adding another South Carolina school would actually help keep some of that money in the membership pockets in the first place, at least in the form of covering the 'footprint'. When VMI was ejected during a prior administration, few lamented about the constriction of the footprint.

The SoCon is only worried about hitting the ball in the fairway. They haven't been out driving long in quite some time, and in this case that is exactly what they need to do. They have perpetually laid up short. I've been reading a lot of folks saying the SoCon will endure. That is the appropriate word.

I don't disagree with you. I do not think the consideration is "can they play football." I think certainly they can compete, and would likely be strong members from an athletic standpoint. There is a reason they are not even in the conversation, and I don't think that reason is "they cannot compete in this conference."

I also think the idea that the conference, now weaker, is more exciting to the current members. The gap right now between GSU/App and the rest of the conference is nowhere near as wide as the gap ten years ago between Furman/GSU/App and the rest of the conference. I mean, App was blown out at home twice this season.

I think the conference still has plenty of football talent. Yes they will miss GSU and App State from a football perspective, but it is not as though it was App/GSU and a bunch of nothing. I just think the conference has to focus on who brings the most money given the current state of affairs. I do not think it is about who can bring the best football.

[thirdgendin]

Maybe this has already been specifically discussed and I missed it among all the conference realignment talk but here is my question: I know the opposition to CCU stems primarily from not wanting a fourth SC school but why exactly is that a problem?

The SoCon has always been heavily based in the Carolinas and for the last decade or so, has housed 5 NC schools (App, Western, Elon, Davidson, UNCG) and 4 SC schools (El Cid, Furman, Wofford, CofC), albeit only 3 in each state that play football. With App, Davidson, CofC and likely Elon out the door, what damage does adding another SC school do?

If it was circa 2003 and CCU was a start-up, I could certainly understand not wanting to extend the olive branch to an SC school and adding 63 more football scholarships in the state. In this case, Coastal is already playing competitive FCS football and fighting with SoCon schools for recruits about as much as they would if they were in the conference.

Football aside, it would be great for SoCon baseball. I know it isn't the money-maker but the conference has a rich history in baseball. Losing GSU, Elon, Charleston and App would be a hit there and bringing in Mercer and Coastal would keep the SoCon as one of the premier mid-major DI baseball conferences.

I don't know if CCU being a SC school is the primary reason at all. A lot of the opposition has had to do with the type of school CCU is perceived to be (NCAA trouble at times, perception of poor academics, etc.), and there has historically been a lot of opposition due to some hard feelings from recruiting lies that were told in the middle of the last decade - a lot having to do with ASU, I believe.

[walliver]

I don't know if CCU being a SC school is the primary reason at all. A lot of the opposition has had to do with the type of school CCU is perceived to be (NCAA trouble at times, perception of poor academics, etc.), and there has historically been a lot of opposition due to some hard feelings from recruiting lies that were told in the middle of the last decade - a lot having to do with ASU, I believe.

I have never heard exactly what was done, but have heard from multiple sources, not just bulletin boards, but people who are in the loop, that whatever was done, angered a lot of people throughout the SoCon. It probably didn't help that when a star receiver was arrested for domestic violence, the previous coach called the victim, apparently trying to get the charges dropped.

When CCU first started football, there was a lot of interest. At Wofford, for example, there was talk about a long-term home-and-home series, staggered so that we would play one game a year in either Charleston (The Citadel) or Myrtle Beach with alumni gatherings, golf tournaments, and other events to separate alumni from their wallets. One game was played, one game was cancelled, and there were no more.

[The Cats]

I don't know if CCU being a SC school is the primary reason at all. A lot of the opposition has had to do with the type of school CCU is perceived to be (NCAA trouble at times, perception of poor academics, etc.), and there has historically been a lot of opposition due to some hard feelings from recruiting lies that were told in the middle of the last decade - a lot having to do with ASU, I believe.

Thanks for the insight.

This is a much better explanation than's CID1990's we don't want 4 SC football schools in the SoCon.

[CID1990]

Thanks for the insight.

This is a much better explanation than's CID1990's we don't want 4 SC football schools in the SoCon.

So basically, in a nutshell, Din said that it is more likely CCU has a questionable history when it comes to athletic dept ethics than having too many SC schools? Ok, I can buy that as well.

Admit it dude- you are just obsessed with me more than anything else.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Sir William]

I do not think the consideration is "can they play football." I think certainly they can compete, and would likely be strong members from an athletic standpoint. There is a reason they are not even in the conversation, and I don't think that reason is "they cannot compete in this conference."

I also think the idea that the conference, now weaker, is more exciting to the current members. The gap right now between GSU/App and the rest of the conference is nowhere near as wide as the gap ten years ago between Furman/GSU/App and the rest of the conference. I mean, App was blown out at home twice this season.

I think the conference still has plenty of football talent. Yes they will miss GSU and App State from a football perspective, but it is not as though it was App/GSU and a bunch of nothing. I just think the conference has to focus on who brings the most money given the current state of affairs. I do not think it is about who can bring the best football.

^
This.

[The Cats]

So basically, in a nutshell, Din said that it is more likely CCU has a questionable history when it comes to athletic dept ethics than having too many SC schools? Ok, I can buy that as well.

Admit it dude- you are just obsessed with me more than anything else.


Sent from the center of the universe.

No, I'd just like you to just be honest why you object to CCU's membership in the SoCon. You just seemed to be leading the anti-CCU charge, and professing that weak, 4 SC football teams reason.

I truly don't think VMI will bring anything into the SoCon, yes I understand their past history with the SoCon, however, they are the one that left the SoCon, and for good reason. That reason has not changed since they departed.

They will be a member, I know that - I'm sure the votes are there for them, they play football, so I guess that is something.

However, CCU has a good athletic program, yes they have some shady areas from their past, but the SoCon is not, nor is it ever going to be the Ivy League, so give them a break. We need teams that can win football games, compete in basketball, and go to the CWS in baseball, and VMI it not that team. I could certainly live with both VMI and CCU, however, I just don't understand passing on CCU to take VMI when it's all based on academics. CCU is a young school, their academics are improving, and SoCon membership would be a good motivator for continued improvement.

WCU's academics have improved greatly since they became SoCon members, so much so, that in 2012, WCU's Overall Admission Rate: 38% of 15,234 applicants were admitted

[rokamortis]

I don't know if CCU being a SC school is the primary reason at all. A lot of the opposition has had to do with the type of school CCU is perceived to be (NCAA trouble at times, perception of poor academics, etc.), and there has historically been a lot of opposition due to some hard feelings from recruiting lies that were told in the middle of the last decade - a lot having to do with ASU, I believe.

I don't know what did or did not happen. I know the accusations were that our former coach may have told some recruits that Jerry Moore was on his way out and in reality he never left but went on to win a bunch of national championships and beat Michigan. I do think there were rumors about Moore leaving - as best I could gather at the time from the message boards. Our former coach, Bennett had ties to the area having coached at Catawba for a long time so he may have felt like he had inside sources - but I don't think that is the right way to recruit.

Remember, we are talking about 8-9 years ago and a coach that is no longer with Coastal.

[Jiggs]

Let's add North Alabama to the mix if Elon leaves. Good geography for Chattanooga and Samford. Another public institution, which would make the publics happy. A strong athletic heritage. Granted, they are a D2 move-up, which the SoCon said it would not consider, but that was prior to this purported departure of Elon.

[CID1990]

No, I'd just like you to just be honest why you object to CCU's membership in the SoCon. You just seemed to be leading the anti-CCU charge, and professing that weak, 4 SC football teams reason.

I truly don't think VMI will bring anything into the SoCon, yes I understand their past history with the SoCon, however, they are the one that left the SoCon, and for good reason. That reason has not changed since they departed.

They will be a member, I know that - I'm sure the votes are there for them, they play football, so I guess that is something.

However, CCU has a good athletic program, yes they have some shady areas from their past, but the SoCon is not, nor is it ever going to be the Ivy League, so give them a break. We need teams that can win football games, compete in basketball, and go to the CWS in baseball, and VMI it not that team. I could certainly live with both VMI and CCU, however, I just don't understand passing on CCU to take VMI when it's all based on academics. CCU is a young school, their academics are improving, and SoCon membership would be a good motivator for continued improvement.

WCU's academics have improved greatly since they became SoCon members, so much so, that in 2012, WCU's Overall Admission Rate: 38% of 15,234 applicants were admitted

I don't object to CCU.

Go back and show me where I have said I object to CCU in the SoCon. I do prefer VMI to CCU, but given a choice between KSU and CCU I would probably prefer CCU. BUT- my arguments here have been about WHY CCU isn't getting a look, not my personal feelings on the matter. Why you seem to have this disconnect is a problem with you, not me.

I've been saying since long before all this started that CCU will not/not get an invite and I was correct. That they would be a 4th SC school is certainly one factor among many. Others may disagree with that, I don't have a problem with that.

Now, your assignment is to go back and show me where I have said I am opposed to CCU's membership. Feel free to go lurk our message board as well since you like to do that and don't seem to have much else to do.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[PaladinFan]

I don't know what did or did not happen. I know the accusations were that our former coach may have told some recruits that Jerry Moore was on his way out and in reality he never left but went on to win a bunch of national championships and beat Michigan. I do think there were rumors about Moore leaving - as best I could gather at the time from the message boards. Our former coach, Bennett had ties to the area having coached at Catawba for a long time so he may have felt like he had inside sources - but I don't think that is the right way to recruit.

Remember, we are talking about 8-9 years ago and a coach that is no longer with Coastal.

There was a small but vocal crowd of App State fans pre-2005 that were calling for Jerry Moore's resignation. Most on here don't remember that because, well, the bandwagon has only been operational since 2005. :)

[asumike83]

There was a small but vocal crowd of App State fans pre-2005 that were calling for Jerry Moore's resignation. Most on here don't remember that because, well, the bandwagon has only been operational since 2005. :)

People love to tell the story about how App had no fans before 2005 but sadly, it just isn't true. There has been one year (2001) since 1998 that App has ranked outside the top 15 nationally in attendance. There are many, many App fans who vividly remember the "No Moore in 2004" crowd in Boone. The high-level success from 2005 forward certainly did bring many more people on board but even pre-2005, App had a level of fan support that most FCS programs strive for.

[walliver]

... I do think there were rumors about Moore leaving - as best I could gather at the time from the message boards. Our former coach, Bennett had ties to the area having coached at Catawba for a long time so he may have felt like he had inside sources - but I don't think that is the right way to recruit.

...
I have heard that rumor, primarily on AGS, but the rather severe reaction to whatever recruiting event happened seems out of proportion to announcing that an old coach was going to retire.

[PaladinFan]

People love to tell the story about how App had no fans before 2005 but sadly, it just isn't true. There has been one year (2001) since 1998 that App has ranked outside the top 15 nationally in attendance. There are many, many App fans who vividly remember the "No Moore in 2004" crowd in Boone. The high-level success from 2005 forward certainly did bring many more people on board but even pre-2005, App had a level of fan support that most FCS programs strive for.

Oh, I've never said you didn't have fans. They drew well. There just aren't that many universities whose game day attendance doubles in five years. Even the most stalwart App fan has to admit that's a little more than reaching the previously unreached portions of the fanbase

[rokamortis]

I have heard that rumor, primarily on AGS, but the rather severe reaction to whatever recruiting event happened seems out of proportion to announcing that an old coach was going to retire.

I agree but who knows what the real deal is. I remember reading something by an App State fan that gave me the impression that it was primarily being used for bulletin board material for our game - Coastal wasn't prepared for the onslaught.