Big Mess at Columbia

[Go Green]

Columbia defensive lineman charged with hate crimes, and several football players found making embarrassing posts on twitter.

http://deadspin.com/columbia-football-is-no-longer-just-terrible-racist-h-497481274

May not be a big deal at other schools, but Columbia will take this very seriously. Don't be surprised to find out players being kicked off the team. We will see how it plays out.

[Lehigh'98]

Twitter should just auto delete racial or bigoted slurs. It would save a lot of unnecessary drama. Technically it's not free speech , but tweeting isn't specified in the constitution.

[superman7515]

But what is a racial slur if you say it may just be me saying hi to my buddies.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

But what is a racial slur if you say it may just be me saying hi to my buddies.

What I was going to say. We're told it's okay that gangsta rappers use the n-word because the context of the use matters. So what's the big deal if the word is said in jest, used as a greeting between two people of the same ethnic group, or part of a quote?

[darell1976]

But what is a racial slur if you say it may just be me saying hi to my buddies.

Same with Redskins, its a slur to Indians, but its Washington's Football team. Its all about context than the word itself.

[CFBfan]

Columbia defensive lineman charged with hate crimes, and several football players found making embarrassing posts on twitter.

http://deadspin.com/columbia-football-is-no-longer-just-terrible-racist-h-497481274

May not be a big deal at other schools, but Columbia will take this very seriously. Don't be surprised to find out players being kicked off the team. We will see how it plays out.

Yeah, the same Columbia that has a convicted terrorist/cop killer on staff teaching their students!!!!!!!!!

[CID1990]

What's most alarming in this is that somebody was charged with a "hate crime" over this. Hopefully there's more to it than just tweeting juvenile crap.

[superman7515]

Same with Redskins, its a slur to Indians, but its Washington's Football team. Its all about context than the word itself.

Except that when Stanford did a nationwide study involving Native Americans from tribes in every state of the continental United States, less than 5% said the name Redskins was offensive, and more than 60% said it was offensive that white people tell them they should be offended. I always found it ironic that they were more than 8x more likely to be offended by white people trying to tell them that it's racist, but that has never stopped white people from going on long rants about it to try to save the Native Americans feelings.

[darell1976]

Except that when Stanford did a nationwide study involving Native Americans from tribes in every state of the continental United States, less than 5% said the name Redskins was offensive, and more than 60% said it was offensive that white people tell them they should be offended. I always found it ironic that they were more than 8x more likely to be offended by white people trying to tell them that it's racist, but that has never stopped white people from going on long rants about it to try to save the Native Americans feelings.

That's what was said on an ESPN Outside the Lines show dealing with NA nicknames. A Seminole Indian said to a white guy that its funny how they should tell us how we should feel. That guy should have told that to the NCAA.

[aust42]

Except that when Stanford did a nationwide study involving Native Americans from tribes in every state of the continental United States, less than 5% said the name Redskins was offensive, and more than 60% said it was offensive that white people tell them they should be offended. I always found it ironic that they were more than 8x more likely to be offended by white people trying to tell them that it's racist, but that has never stopped white people from going on long rants about it to try to save the Native Americans feelings.

Yep even the vast majority of Indians are not offended. The term Redskins was never historically used as a derogatory name as the do goody don't offend anybody liberals would have you believe. There are different theories as to the true historical origin of the word. One theory is that the term was meant as merely a physical indicator, similar to the words "white" and "black" for Caucasians and Africans, respectively. Another theory holds that it was first used by Native Americans during the 1800s as a way of distinguishing themselves from the ever-growing white population.

When Dan Snyder purchased the Redskins some reporter asked him if he was considering changing the name? He said "why would I do that?" Because it's offensive. "It's not offensive to me. Next question". Classic response.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If there is nothing to the "taunted an Asian student with racial slurs before Washington pinned the victim against a wall" allegation, what do the tweets have to do with anything? While the language is pathetic and insensitive, it's not a crime nor is it enough to lay a guilty verdict on anybody.

[superman7515]

Yep even the vast majority of Indians are not offended. The term Redskins was never historically used as a derogatory name as the do goody don't offend anybody liberals would have you believe. There are different theories as to the true historical origin of the word. One theory is that the term was meant as merely a physical indicator, similar to the words "white" and "black" for Caucasians and Africans, respectively. Another theory holds that it was first used by Native Americans during the 1800s as a way of distinguishing themselves from the ever-growing white population.

When Dan Snyder purchased the Redskins some reporter asked him if he was considering changing the name? He said "why would I do that?" Because it's offensive. "It's not offensive to me. Next question". Classic response.

We're going to be completely off topic here in a second, but the Smithsonian Institute said there was no historical evidence that Redskins was used as a racial slur. It was used by the Native Americans themselves as far back as the 1600's to distinguish themselves from the white people. The first written use of it from caucasians was the Dutch, who had no word for Redskins previously because they had no one but whites in the area and had no historical need to distinguish white people from others.

[Go Green]

If there is nothing to the "taunted an Asian student with racial slurs before Washington pinned the victim against a wall" allegation, what do the tweets have to do with anything? While the language is pathetic and insensitive, it's not a crime nor is it enough to lay a guilty verdict on anybody.

The answers to this inquiry can be found in the comments to the student paper's article on the issue.

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2013/05/07/nbc-new-york-football-player-charged-hate-crime

Agree with them if you wish. Or not. That's up to you.

But the incident and the degrogatory twitter postings are not going over well at Columbia. And the guess here is that it wouldn't go well over at a lot of PL schools either.

[walliver]

Here's the real problem at Columbia:

http://deadspin.com/5860382/columbia-bans-marching-band-from-0+9-football-teams-finale-because-the-band-made-fun-of-the-team

Back on topic ... Kids doing stupid things is nothing more than kids doing stupid things.

Assaulting another student is wrong.
Off-color tweets show poor judgment, not evil intent.

[Go Green]

Here's the real problem at Columbia:

http://deadspin.com/5860382/columbia-bans-marching-band-from-0+9-football-teams-finale-because-the-band-made-fun-of-the-team

Back on topic ... Kids doing stupid things is nothing more than kids doing stupid things.

Assaulting another student is wrong.
Off-color tweets show poor judgment, not evil intent.

There are a lot of challenges at Columbia. Here's an old SI article detailnig some of them (quite entertaining if you have the time to read it): http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1065589/1/index.htm

Agreed that this is probably young people making bad decisions. Can't help but wonder how much better the world would be if people were allowed to go back in time and re-live that 10-minute period when things went badly.

[rokamortis]

Here's the real problem at Columbia:

http://deadspin.com/5860382/columbia-bans-marching-band-from-0+9-football-teams-finale-because-the-band-made-fun-of-the-team

Back on topic ... Kids doing stupid things is nothing more than kids doing stupid things.

Assaulting another student is wrong.
Off-color tweets show poor judgment, not evil intent.

Too bad it appears that many people don't realize how detrimental social media can be. It is far reaching and unforgiving.

[RichH2]

All speech , even twitter , falls within the purview of the 1st Amendment. Criminal here. Juvenile, inappropriate surely. Not criminal altho school sanctions would seem proper. Physical assault , even without any injury, is criminal. A misdemeanor in NY.

[bonarae]

Uh oh. Columbia's reputation will slide off farther than expected. xsmhx

But how long has this problem persisted with the Lions so far?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The answers to this inquiry can be found in the comments to the student paper's article on the issue.

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2013/05/07/nbc-new-york-football-player-charged-hate-crime

Agree with them if you wish. Or not. That's up to you.

But the incident and the degrogatory twitter postings are not going over well at Columbia. And the guess here is that it wouldn't go well over at a lot of PL schools either.

I'm sure they wouldn't, but the tweets are almost certainly getting ahead of the story here. Again, not something I'm condoning, they were foolish and stupid and derogatory, but they don't show intent to commit a crime. But that's the intent of the publishing of the tweets, before anything has been decided in the other incident. It seems like, in this day and age, once you've done something stupid and offensive it gives every other schmuck a chance to sound off with things that are even more stupid and offensive, hidden behind a wall of anonymity.

[Go Green]

Statement from Columbia's Deans:

Statement from Columbia Deans Released




Dear students,

As educators and leaders of a diverse learning community, we are deeply concerned when racism, sexism, homophobia and incivility—whether in words, actions or posts of any kind—target individuals or groups. Such behavior violates our Community Principles.Community Principles

For all members of Columbia University, harassment, mistreatment and hateful language based on race, gender, sexual orientation, affiliation or other identities are unacceptable and hurt every one of us. We all are committed to a campus environment which values and supports each individual in an atmosphere that is caring and respectful.

When a bias incident is reported, we move quickly to investigate the matter and ensure that all involved students are treated fairly and are supported throughout the process. This has been the main focus immediately following Sunday’s report, and we must honor and protect the wishes of victims. After an investigation by the New York Police Department, and in addition to any pending outside legal process, CC/SEAS students involved are also subject to a judicial process through the Dean’s Discipline process. For a fuller understanding of our Bias Response, please read the brochure.

We ask that you respect the privacy of all individuals involved and allow us to investigate thoroughly and act according to our protocols and procedures. Speculation based on limited or inaccurate information reported in the press, or anonymous rumor, serves no one well and is detrimental to the wellbeing of those involved as well as to our community as a whole. Senior administrators from Student Affairs and from the Athletics Program, with complete support of university leadership, are working together and treating this matter with the seriousness it deserves.

With respect to social media messages reportedly posted by some students, we share fully in the belief that offensive messages in any form are unacceptable and fall far beneath the standards of civility and mutual respect we expect of all our students, including student athletes who represent Columbia. We are addressing this matter aggressively with the individuals involved. We also believe that broad generalizations about any group are unfair and hurtful, and we unfortunately have seen that social media has too often become a forum for such offensive comments.

Every one of us is responsible to this community, and we ask that you affirm the values that call for us to treat each other with respect and dignity. Let us commit to using our freedom of expression to promote civil dialogue and to appreciate our greatest strength—our diversity. We understand the deep hurt, disappointment, and anger and are committed to supporting and collaborating with all of our students in addressing these things in our community and how we will move forward together. Now is the time for all of us to reach out to one another with compassion and understanding.

James J. Valentini,
Dean of Columbia College and Vice President for Undergraduate Education

Donald Goldfarb,
Interim Dean, Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science

Peter J. Awn,
Dean, School of General Studies

M. Dianne Murphy,
Director of Intercollegiate Athletics and Physical Education

[cmaxwellgsu]

The problem is that when the word hate speech gets tossed in, everything gets reported with the image of a lynching. No one has said what escalated things to that point! Was there some sort of disagreement and this was a heat of the moment deal? Or was this kid simply picked on for being Asian? What if the Asian kid had started this by calling meatheads or dumb jocks or something like that? Now that doesn't excuse the actions of the football players by any means, and I feel there should be some punishment for giving the team a black eye. But the amount of sensationalism just screams there's more to the story....

As far as the tweeting, it is very disappointing for players to give the team and school such an unnecessary black eye...

[Laker]

I'd like to know the difference between a crime and a hate crime and why the two should carry different penalties. If I murder someone, regardless of age, race, religion, gender or whatever other differences that you want to come up with, the punishment should be the same. If I spray paint on a window "Nazis suck" or "Commies suck" or "Albanians suck" or "Vacuums suck" it should be the same punishment.

[Bogus Megapardus]

All speech , even twitter , falls within the purview of the 1st Amendment.

True. But Rich, you know as well as I do that the First Amendment states simply that, "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech." The Fourteenth Amendment (arguably) extends that prohibition to state and local governments. The First Amendment does not prohibit a private individual or institution from defining what speech it may or may not control within the ambit of its supervisory authority. A private employer may require its employees not to post statements on personal Twitter accounts revealing the company's trade secrets or executive salaries, for example. Along the same line, a private university such as Columbia may police on-line remarks made by its students, if it wishes to do so, even if the university's speech-limiting oversight is applied arbitrarily or irrationally, or with issue-specific bias.

The message to high school athletes everywhere - friends don't let friends go to Columbia. There are better choices. Columbia will continue to do that for which it has become infamous.

[dbackjon]

I'd like to know the difference between a crime and a hate crime and why the two should carry different penalties. If I murder someone, regardless of age, race, religion, gender or whatever other differences that you want to come up with, the punishment should be the same. If I spray paint on a window "Nazis suck" or "Commies suck" or "Albanians suck" or "Vacuums suck" it should be the same punishment.

Hundreds of years of legal prescendents disagree with you. Premediated murder always carries a bigger penalty. Intent has always been a part of the judicial process.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hundreds of years of legal precedents disagree with you. Premeditated murder always carries a bigger penalty. Intent has always been a part of the judicial process.

The question becomes, who infers the actor's state of mind, and by what objective standard?

[dbackjon]

The question becomes, who infers the actor's state of mind, and by what objective standard?

That is what a judge and jury are for.

[ccd494]

It may not be a crime of any kind to post racially insensitive stuff on twitter, and the vast majority of football playing universities may not care if its players do so, but it is entirely within Columbia University's rights to determine that having said students represent the University is not in the University's best interest.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'd like to know the difference between a crime and a hate crime and why the two should carry different penalties. If I murder someone, regardless of age, race, religion, gender or whatever other differences that you want to come up with, the punishment should be the same. If I spray paint on a window "Nazis suck" or "Commies suck" or "Albanians suck" or "Vacuums suck" it should be the same punishment.

May I still say, "Lehigh Sucks?" Does it matter that I'm a Lafayette grad with a deep-rooted personal bias? Lehigh alums to a person (I think) would recognize my right to do so, just as I would afford them the right to deride my alma mater as they see fit. It's what we do. But may an outsider to our 140-year-old feud be heard to complain that I have engaged in a "hate crime?"

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Yeah, the same Columbia that has a convicted terrorist/cop killer on staff teaching their students!!!!!!!!!

They ignored you or didn't notice your post.

How does employing an unrepentant murderer/terrorist sit with the Columbia Administration's ideals?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/outrage_puQlvJIeZxsT7nFZds0HIJ

[Bogus Megapardus]

They ignored you or didn't notice your post.

How does employing an unrepentant murderer/terrorist sit with the Columbia Administration's ideals?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/outrage_puQlvJIeZxsT7nFZds0HIJ

I notice that Columbia hasn't reached out to the outraged families of the victims of Kathy Boudin's atrocities. Shouldn't they get equal time in the classroom?

[DFW HOYA]

The PC culture of the Ivy can be summarized thusly:

"Go Big Green!"--Good
"Go Indians!" --Bad

[Ivytalk]

I notice that Columbia hasn't reached out to the outraged families of the victims of Kathy Boudin's atrocities. Shouldn't they get equal time in the classroom?

All this just shows ta go ya that there are idiots everywhere, even the Ivy League. The insensitive athletes as well as the PC faculty and admin at Columbia are just the most recent examples.

Takes the spotlight off the Harvard cheating scandal, though!

[Ivytalk]

The PC culture of the Ivy can be summarized thusly:

"Go Big Green!"--Good
"Go Indians!" --Bad

Very good, Mr. What Rocks. Needs no translation for Georgetown fans.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What Rocks.

Personally, I've always wondered whether that mixed-language motto is presented as an imperative or an interrogative.

[superman7515]

Hoya Saxa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoya_Saxa)

[Go Green]

Takes the spotlight off the Harvard cheating scandal, though!

Another example of a "scandal" that would have been no big deal at a lot of other schools. :)

[Bogus Megapardus]

That is what a judge and jury are for.

But judge and jury may not assess liability in a vacuum. Verdicts are not crowd-sourced.


It is entirely within Columbia University's rights to determine that having said students represent the University is not in the University's best interest.

Precisely. Columbia University is not "the government." It may require that its students conform to prescribed speech and behavior, just as Brigham Young, Liberty University, Messiah College or Hillsdale College may do. Once those rights are forfeited, we lose all hope.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hoya Saxa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoya_Saxa)

See that? Now you've spoiled it for me! xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Green!

Now the official color of taxpayer-funded, balance sheet-adverse government "investments." Perhaps the Keggers can get a grant for a new stadium.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Now the official color of taxpayer-funded, balance sheet-adverse government "investments." Perhaps the Keggers can get a grant for a new stadium.

Welcome back, Bogie.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Welcome back, Bogie.

Just a little "color" commentary, LFN. xrolleyesx

[CFBfan]

Just a little "color" commentary, LFN. xrolleyesx

maybe you can do the color commentary on Hoya broadcasts Bogie!

[Go Green]

Perhaps the Keggers can get a grant for a new stadium.

Memorial Field may not have the flash of Franklin Field or the Yale Bowl, but we do have this: http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2013/05/think-about-it.html

Think about it, indeed. xthumbsupx

[CFBfan]

They ignored you or didn't notice your post.

How does employing an unrepentant murderer/terrorist sit with the Columbia Administration's ideals?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/outrage_puQlvJIeZxsT7nFZds0HIJ

thanks "Eagles: put another way, where would rather have your son play ball and attend class, on a team where a kid or 2 is accused of a racial slur (happens everyday I'm sure) or at a school where he will be taught by an unrepentant, convicted murder/terrorist????????
c'mon!!!!!!!!!!

[gumby013]

Looks like Columbia is making half an effort for the Fulmer Cup this year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Memorial Field may not have the flash of Franklin Field or the Yale Bowl, but we do have this: http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2013/05/think-about-it.html

Think about it, indeed. xthumbsupx

A noble gesture, indeed. And given the ratio, most assuredly a positive ROI.


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7125/plaqueb.jpg

[Bogus Megapardus]

Looks like Columbia is making half an effort for the Fulmer Cup this year.

South Florida might have that wrapped up already.

[Bogus Megapardus]

maybe you can do the color commentary on Hoya broadcasts Bogie!

I'm humbled at the notion, CBfan. But I think that most here really would rather know . . . what does MplsBison think?

[CFBfan]

I'm humbled at the notion, CBfan. But I think that most here really would rather know . . . what does MplsBison think?

good point, i wake up every morning wondering that!!

[344Johnson]

The message to high school athletes everywhere - friends don't let friends go to Columbia. There are better choices. Columbia will continue to do that for which it has become infamous.

My cousin (Rhode Island, tons of track titles and records I believe) will be attending Columbia next fall. You can bet I will be letting her know about this.

[CFBfan]

My cousin (Rhode Island, tons of track titles and records I believe) will be attending Columbia next fall. You can bet I will be letting her know about this.

she'll be fine if she would like to be taught, lectured and mentored by politicaly correct left wing wack jobs who turn criminals into prof's!!

[Bogus Megapardus]

My cousin (Rhode Island, tons of track titles and records I believe) will be attending Columbia next fall. You can bet I will be letting her know about this.

344 - I just sent you a PM on this subject . . .

[RichH2]

True. But Rich, you know as well as I do that the First Amendment states simply that, "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech." The Fourteenth Amendment (arguably) extends that prohibition to state and local governments. The First Amendment does not prohibit a private individual or institution from defining what speech it may or may not control within the ambit of its supervisory authority. A private employer may require its employees not to post statements on personal Twitter accounts revealing the company's trade secrets or executive salaries, for example. Along the same line, a private university such as Columbia may police on-line remarks made by its students, if it wishes to do so, even if the university's speech-limiting oversight is applied arbitrarily or irrationally, or with issue-specific bias.

The message to high school athletes everywhere - friends don't let friends go to Columbia. There are better choices. Columbia will continue to do that for which it has become infamous.
We agree Bogie , my point was merely that the speech was not criminal,albeit that it is speech w/in the Amendment. It is up to Columbia to determine if the tweet violated its rules.

[Bogus Megapardus]

We agree Bogie

See, we're not that different, you and I . . . How very "American" is it to be able to fully agree with someone yet despise wholeheartedly the very institution for which they stand. :p

[Bogus Megapardus]

Private employers may, indeed, restrict speech:

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/fox-news-mole-joe-muto-enters-courtroom-in-handcuffs_b178722

[RichH2]

LMAO, so true. This thread is crying out for your artistic talent. Other than the speech issue it is so much todo w/o knowledge of all the facts .

[dgtw]

Call me crazy, but I find shouting in someone's face and pinning them against a wall is much more threatening and disturbing than posting something on Twitter.

[Go Green]

Columbia coach responds:

http://petemangurian.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/this-is-not-who-we-are/#comments

[Bogus Megapardus]

Columbia coach responds:

http://petemangurian.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/this-is-not-who-we-are/#comments

I'll be waiting for Columbia University's thorough analysis of controversial Tweets made by non-football playing students over the past year.

[Ivytalk]

Bonarae moved this theme to the other board and there are precisely four posts in the thread, including one from me and one from her. Those WCB guys just don't get it.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bonarae moved this theme to the other board and there are precisely four posts in the thread, including one from me and one from her. Those WCB guys just don't get it.

Irony. Hypocrisy. Expedience. Pick one.

[RichH2]

I think I'll take all of the above , as the best answer.

[Ivytalk]

I take it back: I went back to the "other" thread and saw that I had two of the four posts, with bonarae and AZGrizFan at one each.

Columbia's fundamental football problem is not a few idiot athletes or an unremittingly PC administration. It's a losing tradition.

[bulldog10jw]

I take it back: I went back to the "other" thread and saw that I had two of the four posts, with bonarae and AZGrizFan at one each.

Columbia's fundamental football problem is not a few idiot athletes or an unremittingly PC administration. It's a losing tradition.

Well, the idiot athletes and especially their overtly left wing administrators (way further to the left than Yale's, which is hard to believe, and certainly more overt) sure doesn't help with recruiting.

[ccd494]

Well, the idiot athletes and especially their overtly left wing administrators (way further to the left than Yale's, which is hard to believe, and certainly more overt) sure doesn't help with recruiting.

I am pretty sure that on the list of things that are important to Columbia University, having a winning football team is about 5,039th on the list. And I think, furthermore, that they are very upfront about that fact.