Davidson to A-10 tomorrow

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Pete Thamel @SIPeteThamel
Good times for @DavidsonCollege. @StephenCurry30 on @SInow cover and school will officially announce move to Atlantic 10 tomorrow.

[AshevilleApp2]

Bye bye.

[CID1990]

Take UNCG with yas

[Apphole]

There goes the last bread winner. I'm sure you all hate Davidson as much as me, but this is bad for the SoCon. You are now members of a Big South level conference in the only two sports that matter.

[MplsBison]

What an amazing history:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/36549f29bf74848af50c29a10a662e9e.png

I would love to know some of the historic reasons for such major breakups of the conference.


I guess in the early 1930's the SEC schools decided they were tired of being in the same conference as mid-atlantic schools and broke away.

Then in the early 1950's the ACC schools decided they were tired of being in the same conference as smaller mid-atlantic schools and broke away.

That left schools like Citadel, Furman, Davidson, William & Mary, VMI, George Washington and Richmond together in the SoCon. Now Davidson is following GW and Richmond to the A10.

Just Furman and Citadel left standing..

[CID1990]

There goes the last bread winner. I'm sure you all hate Davidson as much as me, but this is bad for the SoCon. You are now members of a Big South level conference in the only two sports that matter.

The SoCon has never really been much in basketball. We have had our moments, particularly in the Les Robinson days with ETSU, but at the end of the day, can any of us say that the presence of Davidson and cofc has brought the level of play up at the other schools? I remember ASU and even The Citadel being better in years past than they have been recently. I was never all that concerned about the SoCon profile in basketball before we added them, and not that concerned over them leaving.

In other news, I am still licking my chops at having Davidson on our football schedule for 2014.

[CID1990]

Just Furman and Citadel left standing..

That has been the case a couple times before, but then Davidson came back for a bit. Their recent soire into the conference doesnt really count in my mind since they didn't play football. They did play football in the SoCon before.

[MplsBison]

Sounds perhaps VMI could come back too. Maybe if the CAA collapses, W&M?

[AshevilleApp2]

There goes the last bread winner. I'm sure you all hate Davidson as much as me, but this is bad for the SoCon. You are now members of a Big South level conference in the only two sports that matter.

I don't hate Davidson. They have a very good basketball program and a great reputation academically. I just don't think that it's fair to have schools in the conference that aren't willing to pony up and pay for football.

[AshevilleApp2]

Sounds perhaps VMI could come back too. Maybe if the CAA collapses, W&M?

William and Mary would be a great fit.

[Sandlapper Spike]

What an amazing history:


I would love to know some of the historic reasons for such major breakups of the conference.


I guess in the early 1930's the SEC schools decided they were tired of being in the same conference as mid-atlantic schools and broke away.

Then in the early 1950's the ACC schools decided they were tired of being in the same conference as smaller mid-atlantic schools and broke away.

That left schools like Citadel, Furman, Davidson, William & Mary, VMI, George Washington and Richmond together in the SoCon. Now Davidson is following GW and Richmond to the A10.

Just Furman and Citadel left standing..

I actually just wrote about some of the recent history, much of which centers around Davidson and the CAA. If you're interested:

http://thesportsarsenal.com/2013/05/07/conference-realignment-socon-style-history-repeats-itself/

The split of what is now the SEC (in 1932) and ACC (1953) schools was generally beneficial to all the schools, particularly the 1932 breakup. It did lead to some oddities (Sewanee was an original member of the SEC, for example).

[kdinva]

In other news, I am still licking my chops at having Davidson on our football schedule for 2014.

we do, too! xsmileyclapx

[Sandlapper Spike]

Oh, and if I'm the SoCon, if I have any shot at all I go for William & Mary (all sports) and Richmond (football-only) to get to 12 in both football and hoops (Richmond taking UNCG's spot on the gridiron, essentially). It may be a longshot, but what has the league got to lose?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Oh, and if I'm the SoCon, if I have any shot at all I go for William & Mary (all sports) and Richmond (football-only) to get to 12 in both football and hoops (Richmond taking UNCG's spot on the gridiron, essentially). It may be a longshot, but what has the league got to lose?

If that were to happen the CAA would be down to 7 members in football, with JMU looking towards the exits.

[Apphole]

The SoCon has never really been much in basketball. We have had our moments, particularly in the Les Robinson days with ETSU, but at the end of the day, can any of us say that the presence of Davidson and cofc has brought the level of play up at the other schools? I remember ASU and even The Citadel being better in years past than they have been recently. I was never all that concerned about the SoCon profile in basketball before we added them, and not that concerned over them leaving.

In other news, I am still licking my chops at having Davidson on our football schedule for 2014.

Davidson is a nationally recognized mid-major BBALL brand and, like PF stated in another thread, they've brought more cash to the SoCon than any FCS playoff revenue of the last decade combined.

Just like when App and GaSo left, this is a very bad thing, and just like when App and GaSo left, some of you are trying to spin it into a good thing. Just because you hate certain fan bases doesn't mean you didn't just get relegated to a middle-tier FCS football conference/possibly the worst bball conference in the NCAA

[Apphole]

I don't hate Davidson. They have a very good basketball program and a great reputation academically. I just don't think that it's fair to have schools in the conference that aren't willing to pony up and pay for football.

Definitely an unfair advantage, but IMO they did a lot more for the league than the league did for them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I do want to say this about Davidson. When the CAA came calling, McKillop moaned about missed class time and all that travel up North to cover their athletics expenses, and losing their traditional rivals in the SoCon. But once the A-10 came calling, all those precious principles went out the window. The hypocrisy-o-meter leaps to 11 on this whole thing.

[asumike83]

Bad for the SoCon (which I don't like) but I absolutely loathe Davidson. They dominated the SoCon because they refused to nut up and sponsor real football, which allowed them to funnel all their money into hoops. About damn time they competed on a level playing field.

I wonder how McKillop will adjust to having a conference commissioner that isn't his lap dog?

[chattownmocs]

Can't wait to see who we get as our new basketball coach. With anyone decent we will be destroying this league on the hardwood and probably the field too.

[Saint3333]

Oh, and if I'm the SoCon, if I have any shot at all I go for William & Mary (all sports) and Richmond (football-only) to get to 12 in both football and hoops (Richmond taking UNCG's spot on the gridiron, essentially). It may be a longshot, but what has the league got to lose?

That's what I recommended before this round of additions. But hey CID with rather make me the bad guy than try to better the conference. Carry on, nothing to see here.

[GlassOnion]

Can't wait to see who we get as our new basketball coach. With anyone decent we will be destroying this league on the hardwood and probably the field too.

Well, that certainly is a glass half full way of looking at it...

[rokamortis]

That's what I recommended before this round of additions. But hey CID with rather make me the bad guy than try to better the conference. Carry on, nothing to see here.

That is an interesting situation. The SoCon could be keeping their powder dry for such an opportunity. With JMU potentially leaving I think UR and W&M could leave ... but will they?

[ETSUfan1]

Well, that certainly is a glass half full way of looking at it...

Would like to see UNCW move in. Have a feeling it will be someone like High Point....

[GlassOnion]

That is an interesting situation. The SoCon could be keeping their powder dry for such an opportunity. With JMU potentially leaving I think UR and W&M could leave ... but will they?

The Socon's powder cant possibly be dry. They should have acted before they were under water, but thats the price of being ever reactive and never proactive.

[GlassOnion]

Would like to see UNCW move in. Have a feeling it will be someone like High Point....

Ironic that the Socon would take High Point at its lowest point, isnt it?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hasn't High Point struggled mightily in the Big South? Might as well take UNC-Asheville...

[DFW HOYA]

Bad for the SoCon (which I don't like) but I absolutely loathe Davidson. They dominated the SoCon because they refused to nut up and sponsor real football, which allowed them to funnel all their money into hoops. About damn time they competed on a level playing field.

After going to the Tangerine Bowl (Capital One Bowl) in 1969, Davidson fell on hard times and moved to need-based scholarships when the rest of the Southern Conference was giving full rides Georgetown fans, take note...

Davidson then went the next 13 seasons in the SoCon without a single victory in conference. From 1975 to 1986, they had just four wins over any Division I-AA program (three of which were recently upgraded D-II teams), with all its other wins against D-II, D-III, or NAIA opponents.

They weren't plowing money into basketball then either, the cost of scholarships overwhelmed them, esp, as a school of just over 1,000 students. And then in two years in the Patriot League (1987-88), the Wildcats were a combined 1-19, with just one NAIA win over those years.

It's fair to say that they were sponsoring real football in the Southern Conference, but just weren't very good anymore.

[MplsBison]

I actually just wrote about some of the recent history, much of which centers around Davidson and the CAA. If you're interested:

http://thesportsarsenal.com/2013/05/07/conference-realignment-socon-style-history-repeats-itself/

The split of what is now the SEC (in 1932) and ACC (1953) schools was generally beneficial to all the schools, particularly the 1932 breakup. It did lead to some oddities (Sewanee was an original member of the SEC, for example).

Why was the split of the SEC from the SoCon beneficial for both? The link to the newspaper in your link (thanks by the way!) does not elaborate.

I can't believe it was over the use of radio...

[DFW HOYA]

Why was the split of the SEC from the SoCon beneficial for both? The link to the newspaper in your link (thanks by the way!) does not elaborate.

Competing across 23 schools situated from Baton Rouge to Lexington, VA was unwieldy. Or as one writer put it, "The main reasons for the rupture were geographical distance, travel time and expense, a great disparity between the large and small schools in the conference, and the fact that half the schools did not play each other from one year to the next, if at all.”

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2011/southeastern-conference-history/

[Apphole]

From the MMB:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8114/8637583077_f48bea4480_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8112/8638904272_0e07bc4c7f.jpg

[The Cats]

From the MMB:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8114/8637583077_f48bea4480_o.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8112/8638904272_0e07bc4c7f.jpg

That's what happens when you're reactive, rather than proactive. Wonder who replaces Davidson and Elon (Elon to the CAA is next, expect the announcement next week).

[ETSUfan1]

Well that would be 2 less private schools able to vote on new members. Maybe Coastal would have a shot?

[The Cats]

The SoCon's bank account is growing with 5 schools leaving, and at least 3 more joining.

[asumike83]

After going to the Tangerine Bowl (Capital One Bowl) in 1969, Davidson fell on hard times and moved to need-based scholarships when the rest of the Southern Conference was giving full rides Georgetown fans, take note...

Davidson then went the next 13 seasons in the SoCon without a single victory in conference. From 1975 to 1986, they had just four wins over any Division I-AA program (three of which were recently upgraded D-II teams), with all its other wins against D-II, D-III, or NAIA opponents.

They weren't plowing money into basketball then either, the cost of scholarships overwhelmed them, esp, as a school of just over 1,000 students. And then in two years in the Patriot League (1987-88), the Wildcats were a combined 1-19, with just one NAIA win over those years.

It's fair to say that they were sponsoring real football in the Southern Conference, but just weren't very good anymore.

I don't disagree with any of that. They were no longer able to compete and they dropped scholarship football. They should have been shown the door then, just like when ETSU dropped football altogether.

Moving to a conference that does not sponsor football is long overdue IMO.

[MplsBison]

Competing across 23 schools situated from Baton Rouge to Lexington, VA was unwieldy. Or as one writer put it, "The main reasons for the rupture were geographical distance, travel time and expense, a great disparity between the large and small schools in the conference, and the fact that half the schools did not play each other from one year to the next, if at all.”

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2011/southeastern-conference-history/

Great link, thank you!

[CID1990]

That's what I recommended before this round of additions. But hey CID with rather make me the bad guy than try to better the conference. Carry on, nothing to see here.

Dude, nobody disagrees that the addition of W&M and/or Richmond would be the best option, but as Spike says- it is a longshot at best. I have no problem going for them (and in fact they would be the top of my list if it was a realistic chance), but the conference has to go with the sure bets first or run the risk of getting nothing. Surely you see this.

Plus, W&M and Richmond are not going to leave the CAA unless another team leaves the CAA. If JMU takes an invite somewhere, then W&M might be a possibility for coming to the SoCon, but right now neither they nor Richmond are going to budge.

If the SoCon had taken your sage suggestion, they'd have made NO progress on replacing ASU and GSU by this point, and would be defaulting back to what we have now- ETSU, Mercer and VMI.

[CID1990]

Bad for the SoCon (which I don't like) but I absolutely loathe Davidson. They dominated the SoCon because they refused to nut up and sponsor real football, which allowed them to funnel all their money into hoops. About damn time they competed on a level playing field.

I wonder how McKillop will adjust to having a conference commissioner that isn't his lap dog?

Hey, that's precisely the reason I didn't like having Davidson, cofc and UNCG in the conference in the first place. Davidson has brought in the NCAA money, but having them around hasn't individually benefitted any of the member schools in terms of reaising the level of play. Plus, the non-football schools compete in the other sports at a great advantage. That's why I'm not a big fan of schools that don't participate in football. I don't mind having members that don't participate in sports like baseball (UTC) because that sport is not nearly the drain on athletic programs that football is.

[GlassOnion]

If the SoCon had taken your sage suggestion, they'd have made NO progress on replacing ASU and GSU by this point, and would be defaulting back to what we have now- ETSU, Mercer and VMI.

Moral of the story: Aim low. xthumbsupx

[CID1990]

Sounds perhaps VMI could come back too. Maybe if the CAA collapses, W&M?

That might well be the idea. Bring in VMI now, and then if the CAA loosens up, W&M becomes a possibility.

[CID1990]

Moral of the story: Aim low. xthumbsupx

So the better strategy would have been to chase W&M and Richmond (which I have said in the past would be wonderful additions), when they are glued to the CAA right now? What's your backup plan?

[GlassOnion]

So the better strategy would have been to chase W&M and Richmond (which I have said in the past would be wonderful additions), when they are glued to the CAA right now? What's your backup plan?

No you were right. Its better not to try anything at which you may happen to fail. Hell, even them Citadel fellas would never have fired on The Star of The West if Southern victory hadnt been certain.

[asumike83]

With 4 teams leaving (possibly 5 if the Elon to CAA rumor is true), would VMI, ETSU, Mercer and Coastal be an option?

[Apphole]

So the better strategy would have been to chase W&M and Richmond (which I have said in the past would be wonderful additions), when they are glued to the CAA right now? What's your backup plan?

We're never going to know because unless they say yes, there won't be anything public about the talks. If only we could count on the birdman and his merry band of conference officials for due diligence without having to see it in writing...

[Sandlapper Spike]

The Socon's powder cant possibly be dry. They should have acted before they were under water, but thats the price of being ever reactive and never proactive.

No, I think the league can wait a year, particularly since Davidson doesn't play football in the conference.

I would definitely wait until JMU makes a decision. If JMU moves up to FBS and leaves the CAA, that changes the dynamic.

[AppMan]

In other news, I am still licking my chops at having Davidson on our football schedule for 2014.

Why?

[GlassOnion]

No, I think the league can wait a year, particularly since Davidson doesn't play football in the conference.

I would definitely wait until JMU makes a decision. If JMU moves up to FBS and leaves the CAA, that changes the dynamic.

JMU will never join the Socon. JMU will be FBS, its just a matter of time.

Meanwhile, the Socon must worry that Elon may bail.

It looks like a race to the bottom to me. Will the CAA collapse first and give up a few members to save the Socon, or will the CAA poach Elon and maybe another conference to stay above the Socon.

[henfan]

Thank goodness Davidson isn't coming to the CAA. We don't need another basketball program disguising as an athletics department. This leaves the door open for other candidates with a broader perspective of college athletics.

[Sandlapper Spike]

JMU will never join the Socon. JMU will be FBS, its just a matter of time.

Meanwhile, the Socon must worry that Elon may bail.

I didn't say JMU might join the SoCon. JMU not in the CAA, though, is one less reason for W&M to stay in that league.

[GlassOnion]

I didn't say JMU might join the SoCon. JMU not in the CAA, though, is one less reason for W&M to stay in that league.

Even then, how enticing is it for W&M to be in a league that is dominated politically by a South Carolina voting block?

[Saint3333]

Dude, nobody disagrees that the addition of W&M and/or Richmond would be the best option, but as Spike says- it is a longshot at best. I have no problem going for them (and in fact they would be the top of my list if it was a realistic chance), but the conference has to go with the sure bets first or run the risk of getting nothing. Surely you see this.

Plus, W&M and Richmond are not going to leave the CAA unless another team leaves the CAA. If JMU takes an invite somewhere, then W&M might be a possibility for coming to the SoCon, but right now neither they nor Richmond are going to budge.

If the SoCon had taken your sage suggestion, they'd have made NO progress on replacing ASU and GSU by this point, and would be defaulting back to what we have now- ETSU, Mercer and VMI.

"Had to". That isn't true. No one else was going to take them, they will be there in June, September, even next year too. Put feelers out to Mercer, ETSU, and VMI keep them on the hook until they are the last options. Swing for a homerun first before you attempt to bunt into a double play.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Even then, how enticing is it for W&M to be in a league that is dominated politically by a South Carolina voting block?

Well, it's possible that it may be better than the alternative.

[GlassOnion]

Well, it's possible that it may be better than the alternative.

So W&M is going to pay a $1 million exit fee, and sign away its future plans to The Citadel, Furman and Wofford? Doesnt seem very likely.

[Sandlapper Spike]

So W&M is going to pay a $1 million exit fee, and sign away its future plans to The Citadel, Furman and Wofford? Doesnt seem very likely.

I'm sure the SoCon can help them out. The league is going to have plenty of cash on hand, you know.

[GlassOnion]

I'm sure the SoCon can help them out. The league is going to have plenty of cash on hand, you know.

Probably not as much as you think.

[CID1990]

I didn't say JMU might join the SoCon. JMU not in the CAA, though, is one less reason for W&M to stay in that league.

Welcome to my world.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Probably not as much as you think.

What, is App going to bail on its exit fee?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So W&M is going to pay a $1 million exit fee, and sign away its future plans to The Citadel, Furman and Wofford? Doesnt seem very likely.

Look at the map again. If JMU leaves W&M will be the last Virigina school in the CAA. That once held its tournament at VCU and had Richmond, ODU, VCU, JMU, and W&M as members.

[CID1990]

"Had to". That isn't true. No one else was going to take them, they will be there in June, September, even next year too. Put feelers out to Mercer, ETSU, and VMI keep them on the hook until they are the last options. Swing for a homerun first before you attempt to bunt into a double play.

Ok.

That was certainly an option, but we don't know if the SoCon didn't approach them. My feeling is that right now they have no reason to leave the CAA. That could change in the near future but right now it seems unrealistic. Especially with Richmond.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[GlassOnion]

What, is App going to bail on its exit fee?

It is HIGHLY unlikely that App, GSU, Davidson and C of C cut a check to the Socon, and they'll almost certainly get less than the full exit fee. What the Socon does get will come in slow drips.

[Sandlapper Spike]

It is HIGHLY unlikely that App, GSU, Davidson and C of C cut a check to the Socon, and they'll almost certainly get less than the full exit fee. What the Socon does get will come in slow drips.

Tell me why, exactly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It is HIGHLY unlikely that App, GSU, Davidson and C of C cut a check to the Socon, and they'll almost certainly get less than the full exit fee. What the Socon does get will come in slow drips.

Ruh roh, those that were counting on ANY exit fees for income...

Commissioner Iamarino, is that Ivytalk on Line 1?

[asumike83]

I think a big concern for the SoCon has to be other conferences smelling blood in the water after the defections of App, GaSo, CofC and Davidson. If Elon ends up in the CAA as well, it would not be surprising to see the OVC make a play for UTC/ETSU, which could really throw a wrench in things.

[GlassOnion]

Tell me why, exactly.

As far as I know, its a common practice to pay these type of fees by foregoing conference distributed monies. IE, App's share of the NCAA payout. Its not like App has $600,000 in the bank to write the Socon a check, and another $1,000,000 to write the Sun Belt a check on June 1st.

[Sandlapper Spike]

The bottom line is that the SoCon will get the full exit fee one way or another, and it's not like App or GSU (or Davidson) can or is complaining about it.

[fc97]

As far as I know, its a common practice to pay these type of fees by foregoing conference distributed monies. IE, App's share of the NCAA payout. Its not like App has $600,000 in the bank to write the Socon a check, and another $1,000,000 to write the Sun Belt a check on June 1st.

that's not quite true. it may be true sometimes, but more often than not you'll see the exiting schools get a one time donations from big donors that covers that check to be paid.

[Pard4Life]

Clearly, top-notch academics and competitive basketball conference are incompatible.

DAVIDSON IS NOT THAT DIFFERENT THAN THE PATRIOT LEAGUE SCHOOLS! (damn Presidents....) xnonono2x

Great move for Davidson and good luck!

[GlassOnion]

The bottom line is that the SoCon will get the full exit fee one way or another, and it's not like App or GSU (or Davidson) can or is complaining about it.

Maybe. Whether the Socon gets their exit fee or not, odds are whatever is left over from the replacement search gets split among the members. Alot of schools in the Socon need that money to operate. They wouldnt pony up to get a cheap TV contract, not likely they would pay W&M's exit fee.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Maybe.

You've gone from "almost certainly" to "maybe" in less than 30 minutes.

[GlassOnion]

You've gone from "almost certainly" to "maybe" in less than 30 minutes.

I still dont think App will pay $600,000, and certainly not in a lump sum. Just smiling and nodding for your sake. I've seen these things negotiated down and drawn out too many times to expect that. But thats just me.

[Saint3333]

Maybe. Whether the Socon gets their exit fee or not, odds are whatever is left over from the replacement search gets split among the members. Alot of schools in the Socon need that money to operate. They wouldnt pony up to get a cheap TV contract, not likely they would pay W&M's exit fee.

Replacement search expenses? I can't tell if you're serious.

[Go...gate]

After going to the Tangerine Bowl (Capital One Bowl) in 1969, Davidson fell on hard times and moved to need-based scholarships when the rest of the Southern Conference was giving full rides Georgetown fans, take note...

Davidson then went the next 13 seasons in the SoCon without a single victory in conference. From 1975 to 1986, they had just four wins over any Division I-AA program (three of which were recently upgraded D-II teams), with all its other wins against D-II, D-III, or NAIA opponents.

They weren't plowing money into basketball then either, the cost of scholarships overwhelmed them, esp, as a school of just over 1,000 students. And then in two years in the Patriot League (1987-88), the Wildcats were a combined 1-19, with just one NAIA win over those years.

It's fair to say that they were sponsoring real football in the Southern Conference, but just weren't very good anymore.

They never really gave the PL much of a chance in football. As the PL programs regressed in the non-playoff years, DC would probably have been a good fit, but they never waited around long enough to find out.

[GlassOnion]

Replacement search expenses? I can't tell if you're serious.

Hotel, meals and travel for visiting Mercer, VMI, and ETSU?

May not be much, but...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I still dont think App will pay $600,000, and certainly not in a lump sum. Just smiling and nodding for your sake. I've seen these things negotiated down and drawn out too many times to expect that. But thats just me.

OK, you made me look it up.

http://www.soconsports.com/fls/4000/socon/members_only/Conference_Manual/2012-13/Constitution_and_Bylaws.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4000


Section 1.
A. Members.
1. A Conference member may be suspended or expelled from the Conference only upon two-thirds vote of the full
Executive Committee.
2. A Conference member which is suspended or expelled from the Conference shall not be eligible for any
financial distribution (including the share of Conference equity) except for unpaid team expenses to attend a
scheduled Conference championship, meet, or tournament which took place prior to the date of expulsion or
withdrawal.
3. Any member that decides to resign from the Conference is expected to give a two-year notice of its intent to
leave the Conference. A member that resigns in this manner will continue to receive a share of the annual
excess revenue distribution during its last two years in the Conference, but will also be assessed a fee of
$300,000, due to the Conference June 30 of the year the member leaves the Conference. A member that
resigns with less than a two-year notice, forfeits its share of excess revenue distribution, and will be assessed a
financial penalty of $600,000, due to the Conference June 30 of the year the member leaves the Conference.
Any exiting member is entitled to no other monies.

So it is a check, paid to the SoCon by June 30th. Is there some concern that App won't be able to do this?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I still dont think App will pay $600,000, and certainly not in a lump sum. Just smiling and nodding for your sake. I've seen these things negotiated down and drawn out too many times to expect that. But thats just me.

I'll admit I'm not real familiar with this so what teams are you referring to that have been able to pull this off? I think it was waived with some WAC teams at the bitter end but that's a different animal I think.

[GlassOnion]

OK, you made me look it up.

http://www.soconsports.com/fls/4000/socon/members_only/Conference_Manual/2012-13/Constitution_and_Bylaws.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=4000



So it is a check, paid to the SoCon by June 30th. Is there some concern that App won't be able to do this?

I doubt it is a problem, but I wouldnt know anyways, as I am not privy to App's financial numbers. It could be argued though that App gave 2 years notice. App publicly announced its intention to leave the Socon more than 2 years ago. Everyone here sure knew about it.

[GlassOnion]

I'll admit I'm not real familiar with this so what teams are you referring to that have been able to pull this off? I think it was waived with some WAC teams at the bitter end but that's a different animal I think.

Dont know which, didnt really feel the need to book mark it at the time.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I doubt it is a problem, but I wouldnt know anyways, as I am not privy to App's financial numbers. It could be argued though that App gave 2 years notice. App publicly announced its intention to leave the Socon more than 2 years ago. Everyone here sure knew about it.xlolx
Yeah, that should work!

[dbackjon]

As far as I know, its a common practice to pay these type of fees by foregoing conference distributed monies. IE, App's share of the NCAA payout. Its not like App has $600,000 in the bank to write the Socon a check, and another $1,000,000 to write the Sun Belt a check on June 1st.

So you are saying App State can't AFFORD to move to FBS?

If you can't cut $1.6 Million in checks, you have NO Business moving to FBS.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Dont know which, didnt really feel the need to book mark it at the time.

Got it. It seemed as though you were stating it as common and I figured you would know off hand.

[dbackjon]

I doubt it is a problem, but I wouldnt know anyways, as I am not privy to App's financial numbers. It could be argued though that App gave 2 years notice. App publicly announced its intention to leave the Socon more than 2 years ago. Everyone here sure knew about it.

no, they didn't formally announce. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been in the playoffs.

You are dead wrong. Poor App State - can they afford to move up?

[GlassOnion]

So you are saying App State can't AFFORD to move to FBS?

If you can't cut $1.6 Million in checks, you have NO Business moving to FBS.

I'd bet most mid tier FBS schools dont have $1.6 million sitting in their checking account that hasnt already been spoken for.

[asumike83]

We'll be just fine. Call me crazy but I think the administration knew about the exit fee before making a move.

[dbackjon]

I'd bet most mid tier FBS schools dont have $1.6 million sitting in their checking account that hasnt already been spoken for.

Then maybe that is a clue they shouldn't move up. Hopefully, you are wrong, and the ASU adminstration has more foresight than you are giving them. Or maybe the SunBelt will take installment payments. But there is no incentive for the SoCon to do so.

[dbackjon]

We'll be just fine. Call me crazy but I think the administration knew about the exit fee before making a move.

I would imagine yes

[asumike83]

I would imagine yes

I'm sure there will be some attempt to negotiate but it will be taken care of. I know the payout for the Michigan game went from $750K to $1M because App will be FBS at the time so that is almost half of the exit fee right there.

[GlassOnion]

Then maybe that is a clue they shouldn't move up. Hopefully, you are wrong, and the ASU adminstration has more foresight than you are giving them. Or maybe the SunBelt will take installment payments. But there is no incentive for the SoCon to do so.

The Sun Belt gives 3 years to pay. The exit fee was negotiated by the Socon schools, including App and GSU, so it could very well have installment plans as far as we know.

[Eagle22]

I think part of what GlassOnion is referring to is along the lines of what Iamarino alluded to in earlier articles. Both Georgia Southern and Appalachian State have kept the SoCon leadership up to speed on the timeline of negotiations with the Sun Belt, many months prior to there even being a hint of our recent addition. GSU and ASU could have just simply said all along there was no intent of leaving the SoCon, which could have left the league in an even more precarious position. In some regards, both GSU and ASU are doing the Sun Belt a favor by coming into the league on the Sun Belt's timeline ... and who knows ... maybe the Sun Belt is underwriting part/some/all of the cost to exit the SoCon. Truth is, unless it was a VERY messy divorce from the SoCon (and I don't believe that to be the case), I seriously doubt we'll pay that full-bore price to exit. If we do, we might see the Sun Belt waive the entry fee or a portion thereof for our individual institution's to not lay claim to perhaps some portion of initial revenue sharing.

There are a lot of ways that can shake out, and it all depends on the wheeling and dealing involved.

[GlassOnion]

And its not about not being able to pay the fee if we had to, its more about why pay it if you dont have to. CUSA schools apparently negotiated their exit fees down by agreeing to future games with remaining conference members. It can be done. App was not quiet about its intentions, and will still be an associate Socon member with Soccer and wrestling still competing in the Socon. Sometimes other thing besides the exit fee offer more value to the conference.

The Sun Belt fee will likely come out of the distribution money. Instead of the Sun Belt cutting App a $1.5 million check in 2015, we'll probably get $750,000 in 2015 and 2016. Look there, App never had to write a check!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Sun Belt fee will likely come out of the distribution money. Instead of the Sun Belt cutting App a $1.5 million check in 2015, we'll probably get $750,000 in 2015 and 2016. Look there, App never had to write a check!

Um...

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/22045224/group-of-five-league-schools-could-see-1m-per-year-revenue-cap


The Sun Belt has added FCS members Georgia Southern and Appalachian State beginning in 2014. However, those schools won't qualify for the Group of Five revenue split until 2015 because of NCAA transitional requirements for FBS. (Liberty and James Madison have been mentioned as possible Sun Belt members in the future.)

[GlassOnion]

Um...

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/22045224/group-of-five-league-schools-could-see-1m-per-year-revenue-cap

What? 3 years to pay, 2014, pay nothing, 2015 we're eligible for the revenue split, pay half, 2016 pay another half, exactly what I posted.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What? 3 years to pay, 2014, pay nothing, 2015 we're eligible for the revenue split, pay half, 2016 pay another half, exactly what I posted.

Of course there are those ongoing fees you pay as a member of the Sun Belt... that's how the SBC makes most of its money.

[AppMan]

that's not quite true. it may be true sometimes, but more often than not you'll see the exiting schools get a one time donations from big donors that covers that check to be paid.

It is my understanding that is the case with ASU.

[AppMan]

So W&M is going to pay a $1 million exit fee, and sign away its future plans to The Citadel, Furman and Wofford? Doesnt seem very likely.

If W&M bolts the CAA I'm hearing it will be to the Patriot League.

[GlassOnion]

If W&M bolts the CAA I'm hearing it will be to the Patriot League.

Now that I can believe.

[CID1990]

If W&M bolts the CAA I'm hearing it will be to the Patriot League.

I have also heard that, but I was hearing it before the big shakeup in the SoCon. My impression is that W&M would be on the fence between SoCon and Patriot, leaning ever so slightly to the Patriot.

[superman7515]

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/4da3aea4ccd1d5105d330000/ncaa-tourney-payouts.jpg

http://winthropintelligence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Screen-shot-2013-04-02-at-10.14.30-AM1-316x620.png

Well, judging from the payouts, I suppose William & Mary could only be leaving the CAA for the better television packages offered by the Patriot or SoCon.

[The Cats]

If W&M bolts the CAA I'm hearing it will be to the Patriot League.

As the Patriot League stands right now, W&M will not join, IMO.

Three reasons,
1) the Patriot only allows 60 football scholarships
2) the Patriot does not allow freshmen redshirts
3) the Patriot League's Academic Index

Of course all of these things could be changed, but I don't see the Patriot changing them, just to admit W&M.

[CID1990]

As the Patriot League stands right now, W&M will not join, IMO.

Three reasons,
1) the Patriot only allows 60 football scholarships
2) the Patriot does not allow freshmen redshirts
3) the Patriot League's Academic Index

Of course all of these things could be changed, but I don't see the Patriot changing them, just to admit W&M.

W&M doesn't fit the Patriot academically? Tell me more of this intriguing theory.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Sandlapper Spike]

The Academic Index could be an issue for a state-supported school. Not sure how much it would affect W&M specifically, but it would certainly reduce the pool of potential recruits by some degree. Just not sure how much.

[The Cats]

W&M doesn't fit the Patriot academically? Tell me more of this intriguing theory.


Sent from the center of the universe.

I didn't say that they didn't fit the Patriot academically, did I?

However, I don't think they would be interested in operating their sports programs under the Patriot League's Academic Index, there is a difference.

[Go...gate]

I can't help wondering if the PL might make some adjustments to get a W & M in the fold.

[The Cats]

The Academic Index could be an issue for a state-supported school. Not sure how much it would affect W&M specifically, but it would certainly reduce the pool of potential recruits by some degree. Just not sure how much.

Thank you, finally a The Citadel fan that's not on a ego trip.

[CID1990]

Thank you, finally a The Citadel fan that's not on a ego trip.

Nobody's on an ego trip. I just think all the hemming and hawing over the SoCon's choices are much ado about nothing. You act like the sky is falling when you should be more concerned about the state of your own program.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[dgtw]

Will Appy, GSU and GSU's entrance fees into the Sun Belt be paid out over time (by withholding payouts) or do they have to write a big check all at once?

[Saint3333]

Can be paid over three years.

[PaladinFan]

I don't like seeing a school like Davidson leave (particularly a school with deep institutional ties to Furman), but let's call a spade a spade. Davidson has really only been relevant in basketball. They are pretty poor in just about everything else.

I noted this on another thread, but Mercer will essentially replace Davidson, but bring more attendance, larger school, commitment to football, and better all around athletics. Would I like Mercer AND Davidson? Sure. Is it a huge loss on balance if you replace your best men's basketball program with another program of similar stature? Probably not.

[The Cats]

Nobody's on an ego trip. I just think all the hemming and hawing over the SoCon's choices are much ado about nothing. You act like the sky is falling when you should be more concerned about the state of your own program.


Sent from the center of the universe.

We're addressing the state of our football program. Maybe you should be a little worried.

By the way, yes you are on an ego trip.

One of your posts from the Citadel board.




CID1990

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 2,001
Posted 05/03/13 at 09:49 AM #3

Jeez I'm like a prophet or something.

Kennesaw State will come later.

Scuze me while I head over to AGS and tweak the CCU fans and their WCU/Elon enablers.




http://dogfan1987.websitetoolbox.com/post/VMI-ETSU-Mercer-to-SoCon-6325884

[CID1990]

We're addressing the state of our football program. Maybe you should be a little worried.

By the way, yes you are on an ego trip.

One of your posts from the Citadel board.




http://dogfan1987.websitetoolbox.com/post/VMI-ETSU-Mercer-to-SoCon-6325884

Nope. I was just right all along. I got pooh poohed by everyone (including a few on our own board) saying it was going to be ETSU, VMI and Mercer. Now everybody is griping about how the SoCon is going to drown in a pool of its own vomit.

I'm not worried about WCU. I only worry about my own house. Maybe you should try it some time.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

I don't like seeing a school like Davidson leave (particularly a school with deep institutional ties to Furman), but let's call a spade a spade. Davidson has really only been relevant in basketball. They are pretty poor in just about everything else.

I noted this on another thread, but Mercer will essentially replace Davidson, but bring more attendance, larger school, commitment to football, and better all around athletics. Would I like Mercer AND Davidson? Sure. Is it a huge loss on balance if you replace your best men's basketball program with another program of similar stature? Probably not.

That sounds great but Mercer isn't replacing Davidson.

Mercer is replacing GSU - better for basketball, edge to GSU for baseball, football obviously big step down
ETSU is replacing App - better basketball, golf, tennis, but step down in everything else especially football
VMI is replacing CofC - step down in all sports, they do field a football team though

Someone else will be replacing Davidson. The SoCon could be looking at two non football schools soon if another football school leaves.

[CID1990]

Davidson, cofc and UNCG don't need replacing. They were an expansion.

I understand that there is a cabal of people who think the SoCon should be emphasizing basketball more, but most SoCon fans are heavily weighted towards football. The only schools in the SoCon that have done anything notable in basketball don't play football. It has been like a separate conference with the larger conference.

As far as I am concerned the conference would be better served by trying to eventually get to 12 football schools and doing a north-south divisional split. It would be hard to get there, but not outside the realm of possibility if JMU moves up.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[zilla]

Not counting Elon (CAA rumors)...If VMI, ETSU, & Mercer join the SoCon, that puts the league at nine football schools (UNCG being the exception).

It appears Iamarino likes the 12/9 model. So is it safe to assume that Davidson's replacement - and potentially Elon's - will both be basketball schools?

[CID1990]

Not counting Elon (CAA rumors)...If VMI, ETSU, & Mercer join the SoCon, that puts the league at nine football schools (UNCG being the exception).

It appears Iamarino likes the 12/9 model. So is it safe to assume that Davidson's replacement - and potentially Elon's - will both be basketball schools?

I hope not.

I would hope that people in the SoCon have seen the results of what happens when you have "associate" members- outside of what is ultimately a paltry NCAA payout (after it is shared) you get nothing. Your own basketball program doesn't benefit on the court AT ALL.

In fact, I think that if the conference leadership whispered an intention to eventually go to 12 football schools in two divisions you would see the Wofford/El Cid/Furman opposition to CCU come down somewhat. BUT- that would depend on whether or not the chance of getting W&M and/or Richmond in the future turns out to be realistic. Ultimately the way to improve basketball in the SoCon is for the existing member schools to up their game. Artificially augmenting basketball by bringing in members that do not play football is not the way to do it.

There was a time when the SoCon had a pretty decent basketball profile with a member school that also played football. it can be done.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not counting Elon (CAA rumors)...If VMI, ETSU, & Mercer join the SoCon, that puts the league at nine football schools (UNCG being the exception).

It appears Iamarino likes the 12/9 model. So is it safe to assume that Davidson's replacement - and potentially Elon's - will both be basketball schools?

Mercer, ETSU, and even (though it may be a bit of a stretch) VMI could all be considered "basketball schools" since ETSU was in the NCAA's recently, Mercer not only finished ahead of FGCU during the regular A-Sun season, they swept them, and VMI has emerged from obscurity and had a Big South-competing team the last two years. All of them will play football in 2015, though - are the "basketball schools" or "basketball schools that also play football"?

Why does Jacksonville, incidentally, get no love? They'd fall over themselves to become a SoCon school and get to 63 scholarships, and open up Florida to the SoCon. They would need facility improvements, but still.

If you are looking for another basketball-first school that would look seriously at football..... why not FGCU?

[CID1990]

Mercer, ETSU, and even (though it may be a bit of a stretch) VMI could all be considered "basketball schools" since ETSU was in the NCAA's recently, Mercer not only finished ahead of FGCU during the regular A-Sun season, they swept them, and VMI has emerged from obscurity and had a Big South-competing team the last two years. All of them will play football in 2015, though - are the "basketball schools" or "basketball schools that also play football"?

Why does Jacksonville, incidentally, get no love? They'd fall over themselves to become a SoCon school and get to 63 scholarships, and open up Florida to the SoCon. They would need facility improvements, but still.

If you are looking for another basketball-first school that would look seriously at football..... why not FGCU?

I think Jacksonville may have been considered at some point. Maybe they are not ready to make the scholarship football move yet, not sure.

But- let's not forget that according to some here, stroking a school like Jacksonville just to get into the Florida "market" is a ridiculous premise and not to be considered. Further saturating the SC market with CCU would be a much better option than looking at Jacksonville. sarc/

[Apphole]

It's official.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BJv66J8CEAA3PtT.jpg:large

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think Jacksonville may have been considered at some point. Maybe they are not ready to make the scholarship football move yet, not sure.

But- let's not forget that according to some here, stroking a school like Jacksonville just to get into the Florida "market" is a ridiculous premise and not to be considered. Further saturating the SC market with CCU would be a much better option than looking at Jacksonville. sarc/

In terms of TV time, yes, getting into the Florida market is a ridiculous premise. But not when it comes to recruiting, especially around a major metro area.

"Lexington is an independent city, separate from but surrounded by Rockbridge County in the Commonwealth of Virginia. The population was 7,042 in 2010."

"Jacksonville is the largest city in the U.S. state of Florida by population and the largest city by area in the contiguous United States.[5] It is the county seat of Duval County,[6] with which the city government consolidated in 1968. Consolidation gave Jacksonville its great size and placed most of its metropolitan population within the city limits; with an estimated population in 2011 of 827,908, it is the most populous city proper in Florida[7] and the Southeast, and the eleventh most populous in the United States. Jacksonville is the principal city in the Jacksonville metropolitan area, with a population of 1,345,596 in 2010.[8]"

[danefan]

6 football playing schools in 4 different conferences.

Amazing

[Eagle22]

Davidson, cofc and UNCG don't need replacing. They were an expansion.

I understand that there is a cabal of people who think the SoCon should be emphasizing basketball more, but most SoCon fans are heavily weighted towards football. The only schools in the SoCon that have done anything notable in basketball don't play football. It has been like a separate conference with the larger conference.

As far as I am concerned the conference would be better served by trying to eventually get to 12 football schools and doing a north-south divisional split. It would be hard to get there, but not outside the realm of possibility if JMU moves up.


Sent from the center of the universe.

True. Hard to figure out why the SoCon leadership is so intent on that ;)

Football exposure was an important part (IMO) of the league's prominence, and when that was marginalized through the years I personally believe that accelerated the disdain that at least the Georgia Southern and Appalachian State fans had, for the SoCon.

All I'm reading now on a lot of blogs and forums is the sentiment that exposure doesn't matter. If that indeed is the case, I'm even more glad that Georgia Southern has escaped the SoCon and FCS, because with that sort of mentality I think that it is inevitable that scholarship reductions will come to the conference. It may not happen next year, or even maybe five years ... but every 'environment' has a carrying capacity and I personally believe that there already is a lot of saturation.

The price of an education continues to rise, and the private schools in the league already have a much higher operating cost per player than do the public institutions. It is akin to the impending funding gap that is happening in health care. The government could double our taxes and still not shrink the gap between revenues and cost that will occur in the next ten years. It will be interesting to see how institutions like Furman swallow rising operational costs w/ reduced revenues AND fewer fans in the stands. Maybe they can buck the trends and underwrite the additional costs in some manner that isn't yet apparent.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.atlantic10.com/genrel/050813aab.html


"All of us in the Atlantic 10 are delighted to add such an academically distinguished and athletically competitive institution to our conference," said Chair of the A-10 Council of Presidents and President of The George Washington University Dr. Steven Knapp.

“Davidson is an ideal fit for the Atlantic 10 – as a nationally recognized academic Institution complimented by excellence in a broad-based athletic program -- the Wildcats will be competitive immediately. Their success in men's basketball is important, bringing another nationally recognized brand into the league," stated A-10 Commissioner Bernadette V. McGlade. “It is my pleasure to welcome Davidson's administration, their student-athletes, staff, alumni and fans to the Atlantic 10 Conference. They will maintain our presence in the Charlotte market, one of the top 25 media markets in the country, and reinforce our commitment to national prominence in men’s basketball.”

“Davidson is thrilled to join the Atlantic 10 Conference to compete alongside some of the most dynamic Division I student-athletes in the country,” Davidson President Dr. Carol Quillen said. “Our athletic teams – from men’s basketball to women’s lacrosse, from men’s swimming to women’s tennis – are ready for this new opportunity and we have the greatest confidence they will succeed.”

Athletically, the Atlantic 10 has had 50 at-large NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament selections in the past 25 years, including four this season. The A-10 has boasted 71 postseason appearances in the last decade. For the sixth year in a row, the Atlantic 10 Conference earned at least three bids and multiple at-large bids into the NCAA Tournament. The A-10 had 10 institutions rated in the top 100 of the RPI for most of the season.

"The Atlantic 10 is a conference that gives Davidson the opportunity to be associated with and compete against institutions with significant profiles, both academically and athletically, while we continue to establish our national brand. This is a great opportunity to use athletics to further the goals and objectives of the college as we enhance the experience of our students," said Jim Murphy, Davidson Director of Athletics.

Translation: "Basketball. Basket-BALL! BASKETBALL!!!! HOOPS!!! ROUNDBALL!!! Basketball. Basketball. Basketball!!!! Basketball!!!!! Bas! Ket! BALL!!!!!"

Also:

Matt Vautour @GazetteUMass
Southern Conference will let Davidson compete for championship in its final year in the league instead of screwing student athletes like CAA

Translation: "The SoCon Likes NCAA Shares"

[walliver]

http://www.atlantic10.com/genrel/050813aab.html



Translation: "Basketball. Basket-BALL! BASKETBALL!!!! HOOPS!!! ROUNDBALL!!! Basketball. Basketball. Basketball!!!! Basketball!!!!! Bas! Ket! BALL!!!!!"

Also:

Matt Vautour @GazetteUMass
Southern Conference will let Davidson compete for championship in its final year in the league instead of screwing student athletes like CAA

Translation: "The SoCon Likes NCAA Shares"

VMI would actually be an upgrade in all non-basketball sports.

What NCAA share? Davy made a first round exit this year. Any SoCon team could easily do that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What NCAA share? Davy made a first round exit this year. Any SoCon team could easily do that.

A fair point, but for the SoCon it is such a low-risk, high-reward deal. Making Davidson ineligible perhaps puts their champion instead in the PIG. Keeping them eligible, who knows? Maybe Davidson sneaks into the Sweet 16, or maybe leaves a parting gift like an at-large bid.

[The Cats]

I'm curious about something.

UNCC was not able to be really successful in the A-10, and they devoted big bucks to basketball. I'm wondering how Davidson thinks they will be more successful in the A-10, than UNCC was.

[Apphole]

I'm curious about something.

UNCC was not able to be really successful in the A-10, and they devoted big bucks to basketball. I'm wondering how Davidson thinks they will be more successful in the A-10, than UNCC was.

Well UNCc does have other sports to fund even though they didn't get football until recently. Davidson is literally a basketball program disguised as an athletic department. This is the same reason UNCC did so well in other sports in the A-10: because the A-10 is absolutely terrible at everything besides BBall. I think they'll fit right in and perform well in the long term.

[asumike83]

I'm curious about something.

UNCC was not able to be really successful in the A-10, and they devoted big bucks to basketball. I'm wondering how Davidson thinks they will be more successful in the A-10, than UNCC was.

I'm guessing because they don't have to worry about silly little things like fielding actual teams in any other sport. UNCC struggled in hoops but were at or near the top annually in soccer and baseball. Davidson does not carry the burden of trying to be a comprehensive athletic department.

I don't see Davidson being a top basketball program in the A-10 but they should compete.

[chattanoogamocs]

A fair point, but for the SoCon it is such a low-risk, high-reward deal. Making Davidson ineligible perhaps puts their champion instead in the PIG. Keeping them eligible, who knows? Maybe Davidson sneaks into the Sweet 16, or maybe leaves a parting gift like an at-large bid.

The strange irony is that, at least economically, it is actually better for a smaller conference to hope for the PIG so they can try and get an extra game and more $$$

[MplsBison]

Does a play in game win give you extra NCAA money?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Does a play in game win give you extra NCAA money?

Yes.

[MplsBison]

Yes.

So a #16 that beats a #16 in the play in round and then loses to a #1 in the 1st round gets more money than a #15 that loses to a #2 in the 1st round?

I don't think so.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So a #16 that beats a #16 in the play in round and then loses to a #1 in the 1st round gets more money than a #15 that loses to a #2 in the 1st round?

I don't think so.

Indeed this is the case. The #16 vs #16 winner gets 2 "shares" and the #15 loser in the 2nd round gets 1 "share".

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson is literally a basketball program disguised as an athletic department.

The numbers do not support this argument.

Outside of basketball, three of its sports finished in the top 4 of the SoCon (men's golf, men's indoor track, men's outdoor track) five in the middle four (men's and women's cross country, men's and women's soccer, men's tennis), and five in the bottom third (women's tennis, baseball, men's soccer, women's tennis, wrestling). It is currently third in the SoCon Commissioner's Cup standings for men, fifth for women.

[fc97]

So a #16 that beats a #16 in the play in round and then loses to a #1 in the 1st round gets more money than a #15 that loses to a #2 in the 1st round?

I don't think so.

it is exactly the case. the payout for the playin is not as big as the other games, but there is still something. this was covered in one of the virginia newspapers before this tournament. maybe lynchburg?

[WH49er]

I'm curious about something.

UNCC was not able to be really successful in the A-10, and they devoted big bucks to basketball. I'm wondering how Davidson thinks they will be more successful in the A-10, than UNCC was.



Charlotte wasn't successful in the A10 because our old coach, Bobby Lutz, couldn't recruit in the A10. He was trying to sell the conference rather than the school and would get stuck filling the roster with JUCOs. We fired him and brought on Alan Major who has recruited very well but has pretty much had to rebuild a roster in the past 3 years.

[ASUMountaineer]

So a #16 that beats a #16 in the play in round and then loses to a #1 in the 1st round gets more money than a #15 that loses to a #2 in the 1st round?

I don't think so.

It's not a PIG anymore, it's the first round.

[superman7515]

it is exactly the case. the payout for the playin is not as big as the other games, but there is still something. this was covered in one of the virginia newspapers before this tournament. maybe lynchburg?

The payout for the play-in game is exactly the same as any other round of the NCAA tournament because it is no longer a play-in game, it is the first round of the tournament. When it was literally a play-in game, there was no payout. Now that the NCAA has changed the nomenclature and these games are considered round one (including the two games that are 11 vs 11 or 12 vs 12 or whatever) the payout is exactly the same in Round 1 as it is in the Elite Eight.

[PaladinFan]

The numbers do not support this argument.

Outside of basketball, three of its sports finished in the top 4 of the SoCon (men's golf, men's indoor track, men's outdoor track) five in the middle four (men's and women's cross country, men's and women's soccer, men's tennis), and five in the bottom third (women's tennis, baseball, men's soccer, women's tennis, wrestling). It is currently third in the SoCon Commissioner's Cup standings for men, fifth for women.

I doubt you'll see them finish in the top three of the Commissioner's cup. Some of the teams currently trailing Davidson will get a boost once baseball season is over.

I don't even mind the concept that they are mostly a one trick pony. On a national, across the board D-1 stage, there are not that many SoCon programs that have a national name. Davidson basketball does. Furman men's soccer does. There's utility in keeping those folks around.

[MplsBison]

The payout for the play-in game is exactly the same as any other round of the NCAA tournament because it is no longer a play-in game, it is the first round of the tournament. When it was literally a play-in game, there was no payout. Now that the NCAA has changed the nomenclature and these games are considered round one (including the two games that are 11 vs 11 or 12 vs 12 or whatever) the payout is exactly the same in Round 1 as it is in the Elite Eight.

I can see it for an 11 beating and 11, but why the hell should a 16 get money for beating some other terrible 16 when a 15 has no chance of beating a 2 (usually)???

That's ridiculous.

[ASUMountaineer]

I can see it for an 11 beating and 11, but why the hell should a 16 get money for beating some other terrible 16 when a 15 has no chance of beating a 2 (usually)???

That's ridiculous.

Have you ever heard of the NCAA?

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

I understand that there is a cabal of people who think the SoCon should be emphasizing basketball more, but most SoCon fans are heavily weighted towards football.

That has been the case up to now, but tomorrow might be a different situation. Iamarino does the bidding of the conference Presidents. If his recent comments about basketball are any indication how SoCon CEO's are thinking you guys better find yourselves a new league that emphasizes football.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

I'm guessing because they don't have to worry about silly little things like fielding actual teams in any other sport. UNCC struggled in hoops but were at or near the top annually in soccer and baseball. Davidson does not carry the burden of trying to be a comprehensive athletic department.

I don't see Davidson being a top basketball program in the A-10 but they should compete.

As a southern team in a northern conference they should have been dominant in A-10 baseball. Out of conference records not so hot and only 3 trips to the NCAA regional since 2000 posting a 3-6 record.

[dgtw]

Jacksonville is a bit of a haul to the nearest SoCon member.

[PaladinFan]

Jacksonville is a bit of a haul to the nearest SoCon member.

Jacksonville is a good drive from just about anywhere.

[CID1990]

Jacksonville is a good drive from just about anywhere.

Not from western NC or VA it ain't. Or TN


Sent from the center of the universe.

[asumike83]

As a southern team in a northern conference they should have been dominant in A-10 baseball. Out of conference records not so hot and only 3 trips to the NCAA regional since 2000 posting a 3-6 record.

Not saying the A-10 is a great baseball conference but UNCC's overall athletics are head and shoulders above Davidson. Even being a Southern program in a Northern/Midwestern conference, I don't see Davidson have anywhere near the baseball success in the A-10 that UNCC did.

[The Cats]

Not from western NC or VA it ain't. Or TN




from Cullowhee - 7 hrs 44 mins / 484.72 miles

Chattanooga - 7 hrs 18 mins / 463.94 miles

Elon - 7 hrs 42 mins / 465.94 miles

Greensboro, NC - 7 hrs 22 mins / 448.15 miles

from Greenville/Spartanburg - 6 hrs 4 mins / 388.21 miles

Birmingham - 7 hrs 39 mins / 464.72 miles

Lexington, VA - 9 hrs 45 mins / 621.11 miles


Maybe it's just me, but I'd call that a pretty good drive....

[DFW HOYA]

Sorry to see them go, it's a money grab at this point although I understand the frustration that a second place finish in the SoCon is a one way ticket to the NIT while third or fourth place in the A-10 gets an closer NCAA look. Of course, a road turnout at Belk Arena will be next to nothing with teams like URI, St. Louis, and Bona.

Will the extra NCAA revenues help football? Probably not. DC seems content in the competitive level that is the Pioneer.

[32counter]

Welcome Wildcats from a Spider.As we are former SoCon brethren,look forward to your official A-10 entry on 7/1/14.http://ow.ly/i/24mWb

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sorry to see them go, it's a money grab at this point although I understand the frustration that a second place finish in the SoCon is a one way ticket to the NIT while third or fourth place in the A-10 gets an closer NCAA look. Of course, a road turnout at Belk Arena will be next to nothing with teams like URI, St. Louis, and Bona.

Will the extra NCAA revenues help football? Probably not. DC seems content in the competitive level that is the Pioneer.

But Davidson is abandoning all their principles for this money grab, principles they were running up the flagpole as late as last year when the CAA came calling for them.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/luke_winn/05/30/Davidson/index.html


Therein lies Davidson's dilemma: Would you rather be in a depleted, one-bid conference, from which you can make consistent NCAA tournament appearances and keep your long-standing Southern identity intact, with low-cost travel to road games ... or join a Northeast-focused league with more TV exposure, the possibility (but not the guarantee) of multiple NCAA bids and better seeding, and a tougher level of competition?

If there is a hint to what McKillop prefers, it might be in his comments about the mid-major program he admires most, Gonzaga. During the Zags' rise to power, they never saw fit to leave the West Coast Conference. They just aggressively scheduled powerful teams outside the league, and the WCC -- with the recent addition of BYU and the emergence of St. Mary's -- has grown along with Gonzaga's profile. It's now a top-10 league nationally.

"You have to ask yourself, how do you get that at-large bid?" McKillop said. "Do you depend on a conference to be the platform for it, or do you roll up your sleeves like Gonzaga did and create the kind of schedule that gives you the opportunity for not just an [at-large] bid, but for a high seed as well? Gonzaga, to me, is a tremendous story about a team elevating the status of a conference."

...or you jump on the first train to the A-10.


"A multi-bid league is something that we aspire to be a part of," he said. "But how do you guarantee that? Well, you join the ACC or the Big East. I've jokingly told our school president that. I'm smart enough to understand that it isn't happening. So, with the dominoes falling, and everything being so volatile now, who's to say what's going to be a two-bid league at the mid-major level? It's going to be a roll of the dice in many respects."

I still think it's awfully odd that the management thinks this of the A-10, with Butler and Xavier already gone, and Saint Louis and Dayton with one foot out the door and possibly more (e.g. Richmond). Last year was a banner year for the A-10, but he's stepping right into the same situation he said he didn't want with the CAA - turning down a conference which is more Southern, and more academically-oriented overall, than the A-10.

Nobody is even pretending this is a move that bolsters Davidson academics in any way.

[MplsBison]

LFN, just morbidly curious -- are there *ANY* conference moves that you think were good or that schools made for the right reasons??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

BU and Loyola to the Patriot League were fairly decent moves.

[DFW HOYA]

Nobody is even pretending this is a move that bolsters Davidson academics in any way.

Conference moves never bolster academics. Miami claimed this when joining the ACC. (Really.)

Davidson's academics stand on their own regardless.

[dbackjon]

Conference moves never bolster academics. Miami claimed this when joining the ACC. (Really.)

Davidson's academics stand on their own regardless.

I would disagree with that for at least the B1G - Rutgers/Maryland's access now to the CIC and it's truckloads of research cash, libraries, etc will definately bolster their academics.

[asumike83]

A-10 and CAA are apples and oranges. As it stated in the SI article about them being offered by the CAA, they were looking at the possibility but not guarantee of a multi-bid league. The A-10 is a multi-bid league every season and will continue to be.

With the current alignment of Davidson, St. Louis, UMass, VCU, Richmond, Dayton, St. Joe's, George Mason and George Washington, there will be at least two bids even in a down year. It also gets significantly more media coverage than the CAA and certainly more than the SoCon. The SoCon has never gotten two bids to the NCAA tournament and does not have any regular season conference games televised.

I live in Charlotte, 30 minutes away from Davidson and saw St. Louis and Dayton on TV way more than Davidson, who was only on TV for Bracket Busters and their game with Duke. They will surely continue to play Duke as an A-10 member and will likely get even more televised games with ACC/Big East schools now that they are in a stronger conference. This move is a no-brainer for Davidson.

[ASUMountaineer]

from Cullowhee - 7 hrs 44 mins / 484.72 miles

Chattanooga - 7 hrs 18 mins / 463.94 miles

Elon - 7 hrs 42 mins / 465.94 miles

Greensboro, NC - 7 hrs 22 mins / 448.15 miles

from Greenville/Spartanburg - 6 hrs 4 mins / 388.21 miles

Birmingham - 7 hrs 39 mins / 464.72 miles

Lexington, VA - 9 hrs 45 mins / 621.11 miles


Maybe it's just me, but I'd call that a pretty good drive....

Irrelevant. What's important is that they are not CCU.

[MplsBison]

BU and Loyola to the Patriot League were fairly decent moves.

Obviously.

Sans that??? Anything?

[DFW HOYA]

Sans that??? Anything?

Best (so far):

1. Texas A&M to SEC
2. Virginia Tech to ACC
3. TCU to Big 12
Honorable mention: Boise State to MWC

Worst:
1. West Virginia to Big 12
2. Rutgers to Big 10
3. Colorado to Pac 12
Dishonorable mention: Boston College to ACC (anyone remember them?)

[superman7515]

Best (so far):

1. Texas A&M to SEC
2. Virginia Tech to ACC
3. TCU to Big 12
Honorable mention: Boise State to MWC

Worst:
1. West Virginia to Big 12
2. Rutgers to Big 10
3. Colorado to Pac 12
Dishonorable mention: Holy Cross to the Patriot League(anyone remember them?)

FIFY

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This is a good move for Davidson. The A10 will remain one one of the top "tweener" leagues in the country. There's still still plenty of programs capable of going deep in the tourney.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Best (so far):

1. Texas A&M to SEC
2. Virginia Tech to ACC
3. TCU to Big 12
Honorable mention: Boise State to MWC

Worst:
1. West Virginia to Big 12
2. Rutgers to Big 10
3. Colorado to Pac 12
Dishonorable mention: Boston College to ACC (anyone remember them?)

Temple's move right now could go either way.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Conference moves never bolster academics. Miami claimed this when joining the ACC. (Really.)

Davidson's academics stand on their own regardless.

Let's put this another way: is Davidson in any way similar as an institution to UMass? URI? Saint Louis? Is this the clique they want to hang with?

The whole point they wanted to say in the SoCon was that they wanted to stay with "Southern, like-minded institutions" like Furman, Wofford, etc. Until a chance presented itself to get a bit more money and a chance to hang out with UMass and URI, two institutions that couldn't be more different than Davidson, presented itself.

While App State and Georgia Southern are moving to the Sun Belt because they want bowls rather than playoffs, the Sun Belt is filled with like-minded institutions like Georgia State and Texas State. Davidson to the A-10 offers no pairing of like-minded schools with the possible exception of Richmond, who might be on the first train out of Dodge themselves.

[CID1990]

from Cullowhee - 7 hrs 44 mins / 484.72 miles

Chattanooga - 7 hrs 18 mins / 463.94 miles

Elon - 7 hrs 42 mins / 465.94 miles

Greensboro, NC - 7 hrs 22 mins / 448.15 miles

from Greenville/Spartanburg - 6 hrs 4 mins / 388.21 miles

Birmingham - 7 hrs 39 mins / 464.72 miles

Lexington, VA - 9 hrs 45 mins / 621.11 miles


Maybe it's just me, but I'd call that a pretty good drive....

When I said "ain't" I meant that it ain't an easy drive.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[The Cats]

When I said "ain't" I meant that it ain't an easy drive.




We need to revoke your authority to use the term "ain't" then. xlolx

The distances and times make that pretty obvious it's not an easy drive.

[walliver]

We need to revoke your authority to use the term "ain't" then. xlolx

The distances and times make that pretty obvious it's not an easy drive.

JU is right off of I-295. It is a very easy drive.

A very long drive, but an easy drive. ;)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Pete Thamel @SIPeteThamel
Davidson's Bob McKillop said today that the A-10 move makes it feel like he's taken a new job. Says he has 10-15 years left.

Translation: He's leaving in the next two months. Look at their track record! xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Pete Thamel @SIPeteThamel
Davidson's Bob McKillop said today that the A-10 move makes it feel like he's taken a new job. Says he has 10-15 years left.

Translation: He's leaving in the next two months. Look at their track record! xlolx

LFN, I'll go on record as saying that Davidson someday will wish that it had stayed in the PL, after all . . . xcoolx

[PaladinFan]

JU is right off of I-295. It is a very easy drive.

A very long drive, but an easy drive. ;)

Interstate the whole way.

[The Cats]

xthumbsupx
Interstate the whole way.

Interstates are not always easy.

Heavy traffic, accidents, construction, & those folks that like to drive in the left lane and refuse to move over.

I'll bet CID1990 is one of those drivers. xthumbsupx

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

A-10 and CAA are apples and oranges. As it stated in the SI article about them being offered by the CAA, they were looking at the possibility but not guarantee of a multi-bid league. The A-10 is a multi-bid league every season and will continue to be.

With the current alignment of Davidson, St. Louis, UMass, VCU, Richmond, Dayton, St. Joe's, George Mason and George Washington, there will be at least two bids even in a down year. It also gets significantly more media coverage than the CAA and certainly more than the SoCon. The SoCon has never gotten two bids to the NCAA tournament and does not have any regular season conference games televised.

I live in Charlotte, 30 minutes away from Davidson and saw St. Louis and Dayton on TV way more than Davidson, who was only on TV for Bracket Busters and their game with Duke. They will surely continue to play Duke as an A-10 member and will likely get even more televised games with ACC/Big East schools now that they are in a stronger conference. This move is a no-brainer for Davidson.

Amen.

[Apphole]

those folks that like to drive in the left lane and refuse to move over

I HATE those people! xbangx

[WH49er]

Let's put this another way: is Davidson in any way similar as an institution to UMass? URI? Saint Louis? Is this the clique they want to hang with?

The whole point they wanted to say in the SoCon was that they wanted to stay with "Southern, like-minded institutions" like Furman, Wofford, etc. Until a chance presented itself to get a bit more money and a chance to hang out with UMass and URI, two institutions that couldn't be more different than Davidson, presented itself.

While App State and Georgia Southern are moving to the Sun Belt because they want bowls rather than playoffs, the Sun Belt is filled with like-minded institutions like Georgia State and Texas State. Davidson to the A-10 offers no pairing of like-minded schools with the possible exception of Richmond, who might be on the first train out of Dodge themselves.



Richmond isn't going anywhere especially with VCU in the league. Davidson may not be similar with URI and UMass but they are similar to George Washington, St. Joe's, Fordham, La Salle, and St. Bona's. Private universities with their main emphasis on basketball. Davidson also has a decent amount alumni living in the Northeast.

Charlotte was a much worse fit than Davidson. I'm happy Davidson can improve their RPI and program. Maybe they will actually make our rivalry interesting now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Richmond isn't going anywhere especially with VCU in the league.

Au contraire. Richmond is a flight risk precisely because VCU is in the league.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Au contraire. Richmond is a flight risk precisely because VCU is in the league.

UMass is the only school I see leaving the A10 in the near future. Otherwise, the A10 will remain a very good hoops league capable of producing Top 15 teams on a yearly basis.

St. Joe's is the program that really needs to pick it up back up. Martelli has fallen asleep at the wheel the last 4-5 years. If he doesn't produce this year I believe they'll be a new coach on Hawk Hill.

George Washington is also due to turn it around. They've been in hibernation the last few years too.

[WH49er]

Au contraire. Richmond is a flight risk precisely because VCU is in the league.


Where would Richmond go that would provide better basketball? CAA is a shadow of it's former self and the Big East isn't going to come calling. The fans may say they don't want to be in the same conference but playing each other home and home will do get things for the rivalry. Last year's game were proof.

[tribe_pride]

Where would Richmond go that would provide better basketball? CAA is a shadow of it's former self and the Big East isn't going to come calling. The fans may say they don't want to be in the same conference but playing each other home and home will do get things for the rivalry. Last year's game were proof.

Big East (the Bball conference) is rumored to take 2 teams to go to 12 at one point - St. Louis seems to be one that could be there and Richmond supposedly is in the hunt as well.

[DFW HOYA]

Big East (the Bball conference) is rumored to take 2 teams to go to 12 at one point - St. Louis seems to be one that could be there and Richmond supposedly is in the hunt as well.

The Big East does not need any more bottom feeders (there are already a few) and/or schools that don't fit the geographic footprint (when there was one). The number of extra tickets Georgetown will sell for a game vs. St. Louis numbers in the tens.

(I'd rather see UMass and Temple. But frankly, the Big East isn't making this decision, Fox Sports is.)

[MplsBison]

The Big East does not need any more bottom feeders (there are already a few) and/or schools that don't fit the geographic footprint (when there was one). The number of extra tickets Georgetown will sell for a game vs. St. Louis numbers in the tens.

(I'd rather see UMass and Temple. But frankly, the Big East isn't making this decision, Fox Sports is.)

Too bad - Creighton can't be out there by themselves. St. Louis is a very much needed and quite obvious bridge from Chicago, Indy and Cincy to Omaha.


I guess Georgetown's fans will just have to settle for creating rivalries with the east coast private schools that they've been playing since the late 70's/early 80's: Villanova, St. John's, Seton Hall and Providence.

It's your own faults for latching onto schools that are completely opposite of Georgetown, like Pitt, WV and Syracuse.

[WH49er]

Big East (the Bball conference) is rumored to take 2 teams to go to 12 at one point - St. Louis seems to be one that could be there and Richmond supposedly is in the hunt as well.

Everything I've seen/heard has pointed to Dayton.

[MplsBison]

Everything I've seen/heard has pointed to Dayton.

Agreed, St. Louis and Dayton -- although it seems redundant to have both Xavier and Dayton.

[WH49er]

The Big East does not need any more bottom feeders (there are already a few) and/or schools that don't fit the geographic footprint (when there was one). The number of extra tickets Georgetown will sell for a game vs. St. Louis numbers in the tens.




Had no idea that a team who made back to back tourneys and won the A-10 championship was a bottom feeder.

[WH49er]

Agreed, St. Louis and Dayton -- although it seems redundant to have both Xavier and Dayton.


Xavier/Dayton is a pretty big rivalry. Dayton packs their arena too.

[DFW HOYA]

It's your own faults for latching onto schools that are completely opposite of Georgetown, like Pitt, WV and Syracuse.

Was this a repeat from a previous thread?

[MplsBison]

Was this a repeat from a previous thread?

You mean like how you keep making the same asinine dictations to the conference in order to assuage Georgetown's ticket selling woes?

[MplsBison]

Xavier/Dayton is a pretty big rivalry. Dayton packs their arena too.

I understand and I'm sure that reasoning will win the day, with St. Louis and Dayton joining the conference for 2014-15.

Much to the chagrin of Georgetown's men's bball marketing dept.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You mean like how you keep making the same asinine dictations to the conference in order to assuage Georgetown's ticket selling woes?

Georgetown's average attendance is actually pretty good. However, that number is a bit skewed because of 2 or 3 games that bring in 18-20k. Those random December games might break 6k.

[MplsBison]

That's not St. Louis's problem.

Like I said, too bad if Georgetown's fans latched onto teams that were never going to be in the same conference long term due to institutional differences.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

DFW is too coy to say it but Georgetown has been a huge advocate of getting Richmond because it's a somewhat close by partner that brings a very solid extra metro area to the Big East. It would also seriously weaken the A-10 and harm the A-10's presence in the Richmond area because, suddenly, VCU will be second banana again in their region.

Richmond doesn't want VCU in its conference the same way Villanova doesn't want Temple in their conference.

[MplsBison]

DFW is too coy to say it but Georgetown has been a huge advocate of getting Richmond because it's a somewhat close by partner that brings a very solid extra metro area to the Big East. It would also seriously weaken the A-10 and harm the A-10's presence in the Richmond area because, suddenly, VCU will be second banana again in their region.

Richmond doesn't want VCU in its conference the same way Villanova doesn't want Temple in their conference.

George Washington probably doesn't want George Mason in the conference.

[EmeryZach]

^ GW is just happy to be in the A-10 at this point.

[DFW HOYA]

You mean like how you keep making the same asinine dictations to the conference in order to assuage Georgetown's ticket selling woes?

No, the references to Syracuse and Pitt.

[MplsBison]

^ GW is just happy to be in the A-10 at this point.

Any more so than Duquesne? I mean, once you've been in that long there's really no threat of being kicked out. (although they had a weird little blip in 1992-93 of being in what is now the Horizon League)

GW was a founding member, one of only three still in the conference (Duquesne and UMass). I would think their wants and desires weigh as much as any school in the conference.

Richmond only joined in 1997. Why does their demand against VCU carry more weight, especially when VCU is such a hot team right now and George Mason has cooled off?

[MplsBison]

No, the references to Syracuse and Pitt.

As soon as you stop making the same complaints about loss of ticket revenue, I'll stop referring to them.