SOCON targets VMI, ETSU, and Mercer...that's it

[chattownmocs]

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/may/03/socon-targets-vmi-etsu-mercer/?sportscollege

[kdinva]

http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/1905182-12/vmi-may-rejoin-southern-conference.html

[walliver]

I don't understand the great love being showed to VMI. Most SoCon fans didn't miss them when they left. They weren't competitive in the Big South. There is no reason to think they will be competitive in football or basketball in the future.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Shall I guess how the meeting went down?

Iamarino: Okay, who does everyone want in the conference?

Western Carolina: Coastal Carolina!

Elon: I'd be cool with that.

Furman: No way.

Wofford: No.

The Citadel: Hell no, F that.

UTC: I want Kennesaw and ETSU.

Wofford: What? We gave you Samford and you want another travel buddy?

Furman: Yeah, what gives? Shouldn't we go with stronger academic institution like Mercer?

Western: Great, another private school who has never played football? That's just what we need.

UTC: Let me put it this way, Furple...give me ETSU or Kennesaw or I might just leave for the OVC.

The Citadel: I really don't give a s*** if you leave for the OVC. Give me a good reason why I should vote for Kennesaw or ETSU.

UTC: Okay bellhop, who's your ideal addition?

The Citadel: How about VMI?

Elon: You really want a geographic outlier and Big South cellar dweller in this conference?

Western: You're s***ting me, Cid.

Iamarino: Everyone STFU. How about this... we look at ETSU, VMI, and Mercer...will that make everyone happy?

[SpeedkingATL]

I also don't understand exactly what VMI brings to the table. I would think in the long term Kennesaw State would be a better addition or raid someone from the OVC. Mercer and ETSU should both fit nicely.

[CID1990]

I called this and everybody then proceeded to spill ink over CCU.

VMI is getting the look (like I said) because all three SC schools were in favor. People are overlooking the fact that the SoCon has traditionally had a VA footprint and VMI is the easiest way to a) get back into that area, and b) hedge bets on a possible future CAA meltdown, making the future addition of W&M or even Richmond (football only) slightly more of a possibility.

CCU adds nothing to the SoCon at large when you are looking at it from the SC point of view, although I can understand WCU and possibly Elon's interest.

[CID1990]

Shall I guess how the meeting went down?

Iamarino: Okay, who does everyone want in the conference?

Western Carolina: Coastal Carolina!

Elon: I'd be cool with that.

Furman: No way.

Wofford: No.

The Citadel: Hell no, F that.

UTC: I want Kennesaw and ETSU.

Wofford: What? We gave you Samford and you want another travel buddy?

Furman: Yeah, what gives? Shouldn't we go with stronger academic institution like Mercer?

Western: Great, another private school who has never played football? That's just what we need.

Furman/El Cid/Wofford/Sammy/Elon: Well, we currently have a public one that rarely plays football, so we figure you need a private school offset.
UTC: Let me put it this way, Furple...give me ETSU or Kennesaw or I might just leave for the OVC.

The Citadel: I really don't give a s*** if you leave for the OVC. Give me a good reason why I should vote for Kennesaw or ETSU.

UTC: Okay bellhop, who's your ideal addition?

The Citadel: How about VMI?

Elon: You really want a geographic outlier and Big South cellar dweller in this conference?

Western: You're s***ting me, Cid.

Iamarino: Everyone STFU. How about this... we look at ETSU, VMI, and Mercer...will that make everyone happy?

FIFY

[asumike83]

CCU adds nothing to the SoCon at large when you are looking at it from the SC point of view, although I can understand WCU and possibly Elon's interest.

True, but the SC schools are only 3 of the 9 members. To everyone else, I think they add a significant amount. More ready to compete in football than any of the other candidates, competitive basketball and a baseball program that's been stronger in the past decade than any current SoCon member.

I also don't think CCU gets in but I do think they would make the SoCon a stronger conference.

[CID1990]

True, but the SC schools are only 3 of the 9 members. To everyone else, I think they add a significant amount. More ready to compete in football than any of the other candidates, competitive basketball and a baseball program that's been stronger in the past decade than any current SoCon member.

I also don't think CCU gets in but I do think they would make the SoCon a stronger conference.

Right- but you can add Samford (distance and academic reputation) and Davidson (academic reputation) to the mix and there you have your 5 of 9. CCU is a non-starter. We might as well be talking about why Richmond would make the SoCon a stronger conference, for all the good it would do.

[MplsBison]

I don't understand the great love being showed to VMI. Most SoCon fans didn't miss them when they left. They weren't competitive in the Big South. There is no reason to think they will be competitive in football or basketball in the future.

Why aren't they competitive in football, out of curiosity? Lack of funding/scholarships? Too difficult to recruit talent there because of the student life you must lead (something like that..)?

[asumike83]

Right- but you can add Samford (distance and academic reputation) and Davidson (academic reputation) to the mix and there you have your 5 of 9. CCU is a non-starter. We might as well be talking about why Richmond would make the SoCon a stronger conference, for all the good it would do.

For the sake of conversation, what if Davidson bolts for the A-10? Would that be an even 4-4 split on Coastal?

I'd think Western, Elon, Chattanooga and UNCG would all be in favor and if the SoCon faced the prospect of no Davidson, Charleston, App or GSU, that is a hit to all three major sports and the need for programs that are ready to compete right away could be greater. I don't think any of the 3 SC schools are budging but with VMI being no more geographically convenient than CCU, Samford could be the deciding vote. In that case, I suppose they'd have to choose between CCU's athletics or VMI's academic reputation. Coastal is a long-shot but without Davidson, it could at least get interesting.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Why aren't they competitive in football, out of curiosity? Lack of funding/scholarships? Too difficult to recruit talent there because of the student life you must lead (something like that..)?

Recruiting for military colleges can be difficult. El Cid gets by okay because they have one of the better football stadiums in the FCS, a fantastic baseball venue, and the city of Charleston. VMI doesn't have those things and seems to struggle mightily in sports. They are decent in basketball but they will absolutely get eaten alive in the SoCon in football, probably even worse now than they did in the late 90s.

[fc97]

Shall I guess how the meeting went down?

Iamarino: Okay, who does everyone want in the conference?

Western Carolina: Coastal Carolina!

Elon: I'd be cool with that.

Furman: No way.

Wofford: No.

The Citadel: Hell no, F that.

UTC: I want Kennesaw and ETSU.

Wofford: What? We gave you Samford and you want another travel buddy?

Furman: Yeah, what gives? Shouldn't we go with stronger academic institution like Mercer?

Western: Great, another private school who has never played football? That's just what we need.

UTC: Let me put it this way, Furple...give me ETSU or Kennesaw or I might just leave for the OVC.

The Citadel: I really don't give a s*** if you leave for the OVC. Give me a good reason why I should vote for Kennesaw or ETSU.

UTC: Okay bellhop, who's your ideal addition?

The Citadel: How about VMI?

Elon: You really want a geographic outlier and Big South cellar dweller in this conference?

Western: You're s***ting me, Cid.

Iamarino: Everyone STFU. How about this... we look at ETSU, VMI, and Mercer...will that make everyone happy?

hahahahaha - reps!

[kdinva]

Why aren't they competitive in football, out of curiosity? Lack of funding/scholarships? Too difficult to recruit talent there because of the student life you must lead (something like that..)?

The (current) VMI administration doesn't give the FB program the same "support" as does the admin. at The Citadel. The VMI team might get 18 hours/week in season for practice and meetings (vs. the max of 20 hours), as an example. The VMI admin. makes all ninth (and 10th semester) cadets take 12 hours in the classroom (the NCAA requires only 6 hours/semester). That rule causes the FB program to lose 3-4 potential 5th-year players each season. The VMI Supe wants over 1/2 of the FB roster to be in-state guys, limiting the FB staff's recruiting areas.

xbadx

[CID1990]

The (current) VMI administration doesn't give the FB program the same "support" as does the admin. at The Citadel. The VMI team might get 18 hours/week in season for practice and meetings (vs. the max of 20 hours), as an example. The VMI admin. makes all ninth (and 10th semester) cadets take 12 hours in the classroom (the NCAA requires only 6 hours/semester). That rule causes the FB program to lose 3-4 potential 5th-year players each season. The VMI Supe wants over 1/2 of the FB roster to be in-state guys, limiting the FB staff's recruiting areas.

xbadx

I've heard rumors before that some of that may change.


In response to the comment that VMI would not be competitive in basketball any time soon, that is just misinformed. VMI has had some good teams over the years, and a couple good ones since going to the Big South.

[bluehenbillk]

VMI?? Changing the name from the SoCon to Watership Down?

[Saint3333]

I called Citadel strongarming the SoCon for VMI weeks ago.

If DC leaves Elon can't exit fast enough for the CAA.

[CID1990]

I called Citadel strongarming the SoCon for VMI weeks ago.

If DC leaves Elon can't exit fast enough for the CAA.

The Citadel has one vote just like everyone else, and no leverage to strong arm anyone. You're just making things up. Were you in the room?


Sent from the center of the universe.

[blueballs]

From a football standpoint replacing App and GSU with those schools is equivilent to waving the white flag. Kennesaw, Mercer, and ETSU don't even have football yet and VMI sucks out loud. SMFH....

[Saint3333]

The Citadel has one vote just like everyone else, and no leverage to strong arm anyone. You're just making things up. Were you in the room?


Sent from the center of the universe.

Was it you or another Citadel fan claiming that Citadel makes the decisions for the SoCon as the elder statesman? VMI is 100% Citadel's idea, everyone knows it, and Citadel is the #1 adversary of CCU to the SoCon. You guys are trying to build a Patriot League South vs. trying to maintain the SoCon's position as a top tier FCS conference.

[kdinva]

VMI?? Changing the name from the SoCon to Watership Down?
\
how long until Delaware joins the MAC, and becomes Buffalo's travel partner?

[bluehenbillk]

Hopefully soon.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Was it you or another Citadel fan claiming that Citadel makes the decisions for the SoCon as the elder statesman? VMI is 100% Citadel's idea, everyone knows it, and Citadel is the #1 adversary of CCU to the SoCon. You guys are trying to build a Patriot League South vs. trying to maintain the SoCon's position as a top tier FCS conference.

Geez, it sounds terrible that they might be placing as much if not a little more emphasis on acedemics. What kind of a world are we living in man...travesty!

I'm guessing these are the schools with a good enough mix of both aspects combined that are seen to get the necessary votes.

[CID1990]

Was it you or another Citadel fan claiming that Citadel makes the decisions for the SoCon as the elder statesman? VMI is 100% Citadel's idea, everyone knows it, and Citadel is the #1 adversary of CCU to the SoCon. You guys are trying to build a Patriot League South vs. trying to maintain the SoCon's position as a top tier FCS conference.

Again, you are inventing.

What leverage does The Citadel have, Mr. Insider?

[CID1990]

From a football standpoint replacing App and GSU with those schools is equivilent to waving the white flag. Kennesaw, Mercer, and ETSU don't even have football yet and VMI sucks out loud. SMFH....

So who do you suggest?

CCU and?

[kdinva]

So who do you suggest?

CCU and?

....anyone that has 90% of the team majoring in PE/Recreation.

[CID1990]

....anyone that has 90% of the team majoring in PE/Recreation.

Yeah I love the pooh pooing over ETSU, Mercer and VMI while outside of CCU there isn't anyone else who isn't heavily tied to their respective conferences.

If the SoCon went after Richmond or W&M the same crowd would be talking about how foolish the board is because those schools won't leave the CAA (yet), or if they went after JSU or Liberty they'd be saying the same thing because those schools want to move up.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

Again, you are inventing.

What leverage does The Citadel have, Mr. Insider?

I wasn't the one that made the initial claim, talk to your fellow alums, although it was likely Citdog, so that could explain it.

[Saint3333]

Geez, it sounds terrible that they might be placing as much if not a little more emphasis on acedemics. What kind of a world are we living in man...travesty!

I'm guessing these are the schools with a good enough mix of both aspects combined that are seen to get the necessary votes.

acedemics huh?

[CID1990]

I wasn't the one that made the initial claim, talk to your fellow alums, although it was likely Citdog, so that could explain it.

I suggest you go find a serious post by me or Citdog or any other El Cid poster who claimed in seriousness that The Citadel calls the shots in the SoCon. And if Citdog did say that and you took it as him making a statement of fact then I have some things in my garage I want to sell you.

Until then, you are inventing.

There are 9 voting schools in the SoCon. VMI needs 5. The Citadel has one vote.

And as for building the Patriot League South, I'll ask you the same thing I ask the other inexplicable complainers: who else other than CCU would you suggest?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I suggest you go find a serious post by me or Citdog or any other El Cid poster who claimed in seriousness that The Citadel calls the shots in the SoCon. And if Citdog did say that and you took it as him making a statement of fact then I have some things in my garage I want to sell you.

Until then, you are inventing.

There are 9 voting schools in the SoCon. VMI needs 5. The Citadel has one vote.

citdog did say it a couple of months ago and it was quite obvious it was said in jest with a touch of hubris applied.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

acedemics huh?

xlolx

Indeed. Should have paid attention when submitting that one but hell I wasn't talking about my lernin' anyway.

[CID1990]

citdog did say it a couple of months ago and it was quite obvious it was said in jest with a touch of hubris applied.

Obviously Saint took him seriously without questioning the logic at all, eh?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

inexplicable complainers

This.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Obviously Saint took him seriously without questioning the logic at all, eh?

I don't know how he could have but it would appear so.

[The Cats]

I don't understand the great love being showed to VMI. Most SoCon fans didn't miss them when they left. They weren't competitive in the Big South. There is no reason to think they will be competitive in football or basketball in the future.

That's a fact. I see no reason to bring back VMI, except after adding ETSU for the publics, then Mercer for the privates, they were the only school both the privates and public could agree on.

[The Cats]

Shall I guess how the meeting went down?

Iamarino: Okay, who does everyone want in the conference?

Western Carolina: Coastal Carolina!

Elon: I'd be cool with that.

Furman: No way.

Wofford: No.

The Citadel: Hell no, F that.

UTC: I want Kennesaw and ETSU.

Wofford: What? We gave you Samford and you want another travel buddy?

Furman: Yeah, what gives? Shouldn't we go with stronger academic institution like Mercer?

Western: Great, another private school who has never played football? That's just what we need.

UTC: Let me put it this way, Furple...give me ETSU or Kennesaw or I might just leave for the OVC.

The Citadel: I really don't give a s*** if you leave for the OVC. Give me a good reason why I should vote for Kennesaw or ETSU.

UTC: Okay bellhop, who's your ideal addition?

The Citadel: How about VMI?

Elon: You really want a geographic outlier and Big South cellar dweller in this conference?

Western: You're s***ting me, Cid.

Iamarino: Everyone STFU. How about this... we look at ETSU, VMI, and Mercer...will that make everyone happy?

BINGO

[Saint3333]

xlolx

Indeed. Should have paid attention when submitting that one but hell I wasn't talking about my lernin' anyway.

I'm not one to bring up typos but I couldn't pass that up.

[Saint3333]

This.

Hello Pot,
Sincerely,
Kettle

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm not one to bring up typos but I couldn't pass that up.

No way man, when it's rich with irony you gotta put a foot on a throat..:D

[thirdgendin]

I suggest you go find a serious post by me or Citdog or any other El Cid poster who claimed in seriousness that The Citadel calls the shots in the SoCon. And if Citdog did say that and you took it as him making a statement of fact then I have some things in my garage I want to sell you.

Until then, you are inventing.

There are 9 voting schools in the SoCon. VMI needs 5. The Citadel has one vote.

And as for building the Patriot League South, I'll ask you the same thing I ask the other inexplicable complainers: who else other than CCU would you suggest?

The bylaws I found on the SoCon website indicate that "A vote of two-thirds of the full Executive Committee shall be required to accept a full member." According to the same bylaws, that consists of an FAR from each school. Given nine schools who would vote on a new member, six would have to vote YES for a school to be accepted. SoCon Bylaws (http://www.soconsports.com/fls/4000/socon/members_only/Conference_Manual/2012-13/Constitution_and_Bylaws.pdf?SPSID=37360&SPID=1790&DB_OEM_ID=4000)

Given the varied nature of the schools being admitted, I imagine all three schools would receive unanimous support as a sign of solidarity within the conference.

[walliver]

I suggest you go find a serious post by me or Citdog or any other El Cid poster who claimed in seriousness that The Citadel calls the shots in the SoCon. And if Citdog did say that and you took it as him making a statement of fact then I have some things in my garage I want to sell you.

...

This is ridiculous, everybody knows that Furman calls all the shots in the SoCon.xnodx


Everybody that it, except a few fringe GSU fans who believe that Jerry Richardson bought the SoCon so Wofford could call the shots.:D

Who would ever confuse a Citdog post with a statement of fact?

[Cocky]

A
I also don't understand exactly what VMI brings to the table. I would think in the long term Kennesaw State would be a better addition or raid someone from the OVC. Mercer and ETSU should both fit nicely.

I would not be for JSU leaving the OVC for the new version of he SOCON. Without App and Ga So the SOCON appeal has been greatly reduced.

[dgtw]

A

I would not be for JSU leaving the OVC for the new version of he SOCON. Without App and Ga So the SOCON appeal has been greatly reduced.

I think we'd be better off in a league with a greater emphasis on football and having two conference rivals an hour and a half away. If we aren't getting the Sun Belt call, I'd be happier in the SoCon.

[CID1990]

A

I would not be for JSU leaving the OVC for the new version of he SOCON. Without App and Ga So the SOCON appeal has been greatly reduced.

The SoCon wouldn't court JSU anyway because of the FBS aspirations.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

If DC leaves as rumored(what's new with that, it's been quiet lately) who's next? Running out of viable options other than CCU or JSU.

[GoGSU]

I like Eastern Kentucky...but that is not likely

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I like Eastern Kentucky...but that is not likely

That's an interesting thought. An intriguing corridor of UTC, ETSU, and EKU.

Another intriguing one to me a bit closer to the footprint is Tennessee Tech. No hoops success but I could see them be a decent football school in the SoCon. Maybe some potential for rivalry with UTC. Again, though, not likely.

[Mr. C]

Was it you or another Citadel fan claiming that Citadel makes the decisions for the SoCon as the elder statesman? VMI is 100% Citadel's idea, everyone knows it, and Citadel is the #1 adversary of CCU to the SoCon. You guys are trying to build a Patriot League South vs. trying to maintain the SoCon's position as a top tier FCS conference.
There has been a long line of SoCon adversaries towards Coastal Carolina since the mid-2000s. Read my book "Magic on the Mountain" (specifically the Coastal Carolina game chapter) for the background on that. Plus, CCU has never been a fit academically with the SoCon. CCU has never had much support from other SoCon schools. Even ASU and GSU were not in favor of adding CCU.

[CID1990]

If DC leaves as rumored(what's new with that, it's been quiet lately) who's next? Running out of viable options other than CCU or JSU.

Davidson does not need to be replaced if they leave. The addition of Mercer will probably forestall that anyway. Mercer is essentially a much more prestigious version of cofc.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

There has been a long line of SoCon adversaries towards Coastal Carolina since the mid-2000s. Read my book "Magic on the Mountain" (specifically the Coastal Carolina game chapter) for the background on that. Plus, CCU has never been a fit academically with the SoCon. CCU has never had much support from other SoCon schools. Even ASU and GSU were not in favor of adding CCU.

Don't go introducing facts here, C.

BTW Saint and a few others don't consider academic profile when they consider what would be a good fit for the SoCon.

All you need to do with Saint is just nod yes a lot and then move on.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[walliver]

If DC leaves as rumored(what's new with that, it's been quiet lately) who's next? Running out of viable options other than CCU or JSU.

My preference would be to make them take UNC-G with them.

More likely would be Winthrop (although they haven't done much since Greg Marshall left), which is a basketball school that keeps the SoCon in the Charlotte area.

[ETSUfan1]

"Mercer’s invitation would be contingent on committing to becoming a scholarship program, most likely for the 2014 football season."

Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2013/05/03/2465263/southern-conference-officials.html#storylink=cpy

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

So what does this mean for Kennesaw? Are they not being considered anymore? They are close to Chatty, similar to GSU and App. in terms of academics, and seem to be committed to football. Why not them?

[ETSUfan1]

The rumor is the privates didn't want them and they didn't receive much public support.

[Saint3333]

CID this is an athletic conference, no matter what you do this isn't going to be the Ivy.

Keep nodding and driving the SoCon further down the average RPI rankings in the major three sports.

[CID1990]

CID this is an athletic conference, no matter what you do this isn't going to be the Ivy.

Keep nodding and driving the SoCon further down the average RPI rankings in the major three sports.

So you've come off the "this is all because of The Citadel" and have changed tack?

Stop pretending like you give a rip about the SoCon or FCS. You guys will be duking it out for the right to go to the GoDaddy.com bowl soon and won't have to worry about the little ol SoCon anymore.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

VMI is in because of Citadel pushing them and likely getting other SC schools to vote for them. Do you disagree?

I would like to see the SoCon stay at the top of the FCS and will always pull for the SoCon vs. other conferences.

[CID1990]

VMI is in because of Citadel pushing them and likely getting other SC schools to vote for them. Do you disagree?

I would like to see the SoCon stay at the top of the FCS and will always pull for the SoCon vs. other conferences.

First you were inventing. Now you are speculating.

Yes, I disagree. Of course The Citadel wants VMI. Furman and Wofford also want VMI as long as the alternative is CCU or KSU. The Citadel has no more leverage with the other voting schools than anyone else. If you would think things through logically you would see this. Or you can come back with more evasive hyperbole that The Citadel wants to turn the SoCon into the Patriot or Ivy League.

As I have asked other posters (and if course have yet to receive an answer) I will ask you:

Recognizing that CCU is not going to be an option, and needing three schools that either currently play or will play football- who do you suggest as realistic options outside of the ones that appear to have been picked?


Sent from the center of the universe.

[walliver]

First you were inventing. Now you are speculating.

Yes, I disagree. Of course The Citadel wants VMI. Furman and Wofford also want VMI as long as the alternative is CCU or KSU. The Citadel has no more leverage with the other voting schools than anyone else. If you would think things through logically you would see this. Or you can come back with more evasive hyperbole that The Citadel wants to turn the SoCon into the Patriot or Ivy League.

As I have asked other posters (and if course have yet to receive an answer) I will ask you:

Recognizing that CCU is not going to be an option, and needing three schools that either currently play or will play football- who do you suggest as realistic options outside of the ones that appear to have been picked?


Sent from the center of the universe.

Why do we need 3? Does the SoCon believe that someone else is leaving.

9 is the ideal number of teams in a conference. It leaves 8 conference games, 4 at home, and everybody plays everybody every year.

If the conference goes to 10, then either not all teams play each other every year (which is very bad in my book), or we go with only 2 OOC games (which may not be that bad, it would probably take the D2/NAIA games off the schedule). And the Citadel is the only current school with a real out of conference rivalry. I suspect a several AD's would like not having to find as many OOC games.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Why do we need 3? Does the SoCon believe that someone else is leaving.

And the Citadel is the only current school with a real out of conference rivalry.

Not if VMI rejoins the SoCon.

[Saint3333]

CCU is an option. JSU, EKU, KSU are as well. I can respect the school that is VMI but still recognize that they do not add to the SoCon athletically. Jacksonville would have been a better choice.

[CID1990]

CCU is an option. JSU, EKU, KSU are as well. I can respect the school that is VMI but still recognize that they do not add to the SoCon athletically. Jacksonville would have been a better choice.

CCU is not an option because they don't have the votes. CCU also did themselves no favors with recent staffing decisions, which would lead a reasonable person to believe that they could possibly entertain a FBS bid at some point in the future.

JSU has expressed FBS intentions. Everybody including you would be pointing this out if the SoCon went after them. They also have no reason to make a lateral and would not take the offer.

EKU is also not going to make a lateral move. We might as well be courting Richmond. Unrealistic, just like JSU.

KSU is an option, and they might well wind up with an invite, but Mercer is more balanced and they appear to be ready to make the jump in 2014 or 2015 to scholarship football.

Virginia market. Georgia market. Another travel buddy/rival for UTC. Schools that will reliably remain FCS. Those are the logical priorities for the conference, and precisely why ETSU, VMI and Mercer are the best choices.




Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

JSU - fair point

CCU - not even close to an FBS ready program

You bring up "markets", you can't be serious. A TV exec would laugh you out of his office bringing up markets with the teams added.

ETSU and Mercer we agree on, VMI isn't.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

JSU - fair point

CCU - not even close to an FBS ready program

You bring up "markets", you can't be serious. A TV exec would laugh you out of his office bringing up markets with the teams added.

ETSU and Mercer we agree on, VMI isn't.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about having a foot in the Virginia market for recruiting, possible bait for W&M and maybe Richmond down the road. ASU and GSU even with their fans, notoriety, etc. could do nothing to get a TV deal done so I highly doubt that was the point of his post.

[Saint3333]

VMI helps recruiting and coax CAA members to the SoCon, streeeeeeeeetch.

As for a TV deal the SoCon had a deal with SportsSouth the SoCon leaders deciding wasn't worth the league paying a couple hundred grand for and opted for PBS and now nothing. For me that was the straw.

[CID1990]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about having a foot in the Virginia market for recruiting, possible bait for W&M and maybe Richmond down the road. ASU and GSU even with their fans, notoriety, etc. could do nothing to get a TV deal done so I highly doubt that was the point of his post.

That's exactly what I am referring to.

Having VMI in the SoCon as a sweetener for W&M is not a stretch at all. If the CAA loses a couple more football schools, W&M might well be persuadable. They play each other frequently as it is. Plus, with ASU and GSU leaving, the original reason W&M (and Richmond) left the SoCon in the first place won't be an issue anymore.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Saying VMI brings in the Virginia market is like taking a school in Eureka, California and saying it delivers the California market. While I'm not downplaying the idea of VMI heading back to the SoCon with the idea of rivalries and fitting in with the private schools, which does make some sense, the idea that they bring a sizeable chunk of the Virginia market is ludicrous.

[Saint3333]

CID thinks that 40 years later W&M would object to being in a conference with App, a school that has higher admission standards than Citadel. How cute.

W&M actually left once UTC and WCU were admitted, oh look they're still in but not an issue.

Please go read what your fellow SoCon fans are saying about the addition of VMI, including Wofford, Furman, and Samford fans.

It feels strange agreeing with Lehigh.

[CID1990]

Saying VMI brings in the Virginia market is like taking a school in Eureka, California and saying it delivers the California market. While I'm not downplaying the idea of VMI heading back to the SoCon with the idea of rivalries and fitting in with the private schools, which does make some sense, the idea that they bring a sizeable chunk of the Virginia market is ludicrous.

I'm not saying VMI "brings in" the VA market, whatever that means. I'm saying that VMI extends the SoCon footprint back into Virginia. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the other schools. At least 5 schools will be voting for VMI. Four of those are not The Citadel.

If you are Saint, you explain this by making up fairy tales about The Citadel somehow leveraging the other schools. But if you ate thinking logically, you know that VMI does bring back the SoCon's original footprint (which affects recruiting).


Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

CID thinks that 40 years later W&M would object to being in a conference with App, a school that has higher admission standards than Citadel. How cute.

W&M actually left once UTC and WCU were admitted, oh look they're still in but not an issue.

Please go read what your fellow SoCon fans are saying about the addition of VMI, including Wofford, Furman, and Samford fans.

It feels strange agreeing with Lehigh.

That tired old story is a feel good one, but W&M followed Richmond out of the conference after the latter objected to the addition of ASU. W&M also objected to ASU.

As for what the fans are saying, I read that here. Anyone who thinks VMI is a bad addition hasn't considered the alternatives fully. They also are not thinking about the future if the SoCon in terms of viability down the road. Most if them are arguing for CCU over VMI, and the reasons that will not happen have already been discussed as nauseum.

I've spilled enough ink on this subject and said all I need to say. I get it- a vocal ASU fan who invents arguments is mad that a conference has made membership decisions that he doesn't agree with. I think you'll live.




Sent from the center of the universe.

[Sitting Bull]

CID thinks that 40 years later W&M would object to being in a conference with App, a school that has higher admission standards than Citadel. How cute.

W&M actually left once UTC and WCU were admitted, oh look they're still in but not an issue.

Please go read what your fellow SoCon fans are saying about the addition of VMI, including Wofford, Furman, and Samford fans.

It feels strange agreeing with Lehigh.

Actually, W&M and UR left in conjunction with ECU. From W&M perspective, being in the So Con then without those two, our two largest rivals, was not appealing particularly when the So Con additions were being added from western NC and TN. Our non conference schedule then and now was heavily weighted north of VA (Navy, Rutgers, Colgate, Temple) - so the new So Con look was not a good fit.

I think it had less to do with academics, more so with location and the fact that these newer schools were relative newcomers to D1 football.

[CID1990]

Actually, W&M and UR left in conjunction with ECU. From W&M perspective, being in the So Con then without those two, our two largest rivals, was not appealing particularly when the So Con additions were being added from western NC and TN. Our non conference schedule then and now was heavily weighted north of VA (Navy, Rutgers, Colgate, Temple) - so the new So Con look was not a good fit.

I think it had less to do with academics, more so with location and the fact that these newer schools were relative newcomers to D1 football.

I'll have to go back and consult with our walking encyclopedia (Sandlapper), but Richmond definitely absconded as a result of the conference adding the big publics. W&M did wait around longer, but they also objected to the additions. IF W&M were to decide that the CAA is not the place to be, I think that W&M would lean towards the Patriot League. BUT if VMI (and add Elon staying) were in the SoCon that would even the stakes somewhat.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[The Cats]

As for what the fans are saying, I read that here. Anyone who thinks VMI is a bad addition hasn't considered the alternatives fully. They also are not thinking about the future if the SoCon in terms of viability down the road. Most if them are arguing for CCU over VMI, and the reasons that will not happen have already been discussed as nauseum.

Everyone with a brain knows that CCU would bring more to the SoCon than VMI.

The only thing that VMI brings in is the fact that they are in Virginia. Well, the SoCon has gotten along quite well since VMI left, so I think that adding a school in Va is not that big of a deal if the school you are adding is VMI. Now, it might be a different matter if we were adding Richmond or W&M, but VMI - really.

The only good adding VMI does is give back a traditional rival for the Citadel, and the rest of the conference will be paying a big price for that honor. VMI sucks in athletics, period.

I get it, The Citadel, Furman, and Wofford don't want the competition - at least be honest about it. VMI brings nothing back to the SoCon but a losing Big South record.

[Sandlapper Spike]

The machinations of the SoCon in the mid-1970s were complicated, and still subject to some dispute (not unlike people arguing over who was responsible for South Carolina leaving the ACC).

The real impetus behind Richmond and East Carolina leaving was the imminent reclassification of NCAA Division I football into two separate divisions (I-A and I-AA). Richmond and ECU were afraid that by admitting schools that had only recently become D-1 members (like Appalachian State and Western Carolina) the SoCon would inevitably be pushed into the I-AA camp (which is what did happen, of course). Richmond also had some concerns with the league's geographical focus, but it was worried more about schools with which it had no identity or history. (I think the league had also considered JMU and ODU, and Richmond wasn't crazy about them either.)

Then there was the Davidson situation, which further complicated things. Richmond didn't want Davidson to stay in the league if it dropped scholarship football. It wasn't alone. William & Mary left because of similar concerns (and because Richmond was leaving). What a lot of people don't remember is that VMI had also decided to leave the league at that time because its fellow Virginia schools were departing, but later changed its mind.

Richmond may have hoped that with a spot open in the ACC after South Carolina's departure that it had at least a puncher's chance of gaining admission to that league, though I think it was always a longshot. Another option was forming a new league with the likes of Virginia Tech and South Carolina.

Basically, Richmond wanted to regularly play North Carolina and Virginia Tech in football instead of Appalachian State and Marshall.

[Sitting Bull]

The machinations of the SoCon in the mid-1970s were complicated, and still subject to some dispute (not unlike people arguing over who was responsible for South Carolina leaving the ACC).

The real impetus behind Richmond and East Carolina leaving was the imminent reclassification of NCAA Division I football into two separate divisions (I-A and I-AA). Richmond and ECU were afraid that by admitting schools that had only recently become D-1 members (like Appalachian State and Western Carolina) the SoCon would inevitably be pushed into the I-AA camp (which is what did happen, of course). Richmond also had some concerns with the league's geographical focus, but it was worried more about schools with which it had no identity or history. (I think the league had also considered JMU and ODU, and Richmond wasn't crazy about them either.)

Then there was the Davidson situation, which further complicated things. Richmond didn't want Davidson to stay in the league if it dropped scholarship football. It wasn't alone. William & Mary left because of similar concerns (and because Richmond was leaving). What a lot of people don't remember is that VMI had also decided to leave the league at that time because its fellow Virginia schools were departing, but later changed its mind.

Richmond may have hoped that with a spot open in the ACC after South Carolina's departure that it had at least a puncher's chance of gaining admission to that league, though I think it was always a longshot. Another option was forming a new league with the likes of Virginia Tech and South Carolina.

Basically, Richmond wanted to regularly play North Carolina and Virginia Tech in football instead of Appalachian State and Marshall.

This is how I remember it as well though it was a threesome (W&M, UR and ECU) that had the classification concerns.

On the ACC option, it was actually W&M, not UR, that came very close to joining. That was 1970 when W&M had Lou Holtz coaching and a very aggressive Prez. The ACC was looking to add one team (they were then at 7) and W&M reportedly had the votes for admission and moved forward to build W&M Hall for basketball, seating 10,000. The Prez resigned and was replaced by a more conservative Prez who wanted to move W&M more toward an Ivy League style position. Holtz also left for NC State. The ACC eventually decided to add Georgia Tech.p

By the mid 70s, there was no discussion whatsoever about ECU, UR or W&M joining the ACC. I think they had hoped as independents to find or establish another league or home. There was a brief discussion with some legs which included W&M about a new conference that was to include Rutgers and Temple.

[kdinva]

Everyone with a brain knows that CCU would bring more to the SoCon than VMI.
yeah, more PE majors.....


VMI sucks in athletics, period.


and, how many winning FB seasons have y'all had in the past 15? two? (which is two more than the Keydets, I do grant you)

[ThompsonThe]

This is how I remember it as well though it was a threesome (W&M, UR and ECU) that had the classification concerns.

On the ACC option, it was actually W&M, not UR, that came very close to joining. That was 1970 when W&M had Lou Holtz coaching and a very aggressive Prez. The ACC was looking to add one team (they were then at 7) and W&M reportedly had the votes for admission and moved forward to build W&M Hall for basketball, seating 10,000. The Prez resigned and was replaced by a more conservative Prez who wanted to move W&M more toward an Ivy League style position. Holtz also left for NC State. The ACC eventually decided to add Georgia Tech.p

By the mid 70s, there was no discussion whatsoever about ECU, UR or W&M joining the ACC. I think they had hoped as independents to find or establish another league or home. There was a brief discussion with some legs which included W&M about a new conference that was to include Rutgers and Temple.

Well it certainly wasn't athletics. Appalachian State was

1974-1977 NCAA Division I



1978-1981 NCAA Division I-A



East Carolina wanted App State to stay Division 1-A with them, and we were going to until we got a new administration that wanted to stay in the same conference, SoCon, as Furman, and therefore drop down to 1-AA. The NCAA told Appalachian they could remain Division 1 if they wanted to, known then as Major College Football back then, the year that App State in football beat South Carolina, Wake Forest and East Carolina.
And it certainly wasn't academics: App State has one of the highest SAT scores for incoming Freshmen. App State's football team just last year was identified as one of the 10 best on the NCAA graph as to academics, eight of the other nine were Ivy League schools.

Additionally, yes it was William and Mary that was going to be invited into the ACC. They had the same problem with change of administration or they would be in the ACC today. W&M and Richmond fancied themselves more as NE teams, and wanted schools in the SoCon North of them.

[Saint3333]

CID the point is if Citadel didn't throw VMI's name in the hat no one else would have. ETSU is added for UTC and WCU, Mercer for Samford and SC schools, VMI for Citadel that is pretty transparent.

VMI basketball RPI- 302
Baseball - 169 - 9th in SoCon
Football record looks like WCU's playing in the Big South
Don't have all women's sports

I have NO issue with VMI as a college, but how anyone can defend their addition to an athletic conference?

[Sandlapper Spike]

CID the point is if Citadel didn't throw VMI's name in the hat no one else would have.

I have NO issue with VMI as a college, but how anyone can defend their addition to an athletic conference?

VMI still needs at least six votes for admission, so that is five other schools besides The Citadel. It has also been reported that VMI had the most support among all candidate schools.

I also disagree with the notion that no other school would have suggested VMI. The folks in Lexington have plenty of ties to other league institutions. Considering how many schools may have at least initially been in play, the idea that VMI wouldn't have drawn much notice from the SoCon unless The Citadel was involved seems ludicrous.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Ok, so what about Gardner-Webb and Tennessee Tech? Should they be considered over VMI?

[Sandlapper Spike]

Hey, they may have been in the mix. They obviously didn't get as much support, or perhaps (in Tennessee Tech's case, anyway) those schools weren't interested.

I would be mildly surprised if Furman or Wofford (or Davidson) would have favored Gardner-Webb over VMI, to be honest. The same is likely true for Tennessee Tech.

[walliver]

Hey, they may have been in the mix. They obviously didn't get as much support, or perhaps (in Tennessee Tech's case, anyway) those schools weren't interested.

I would be mildly surprised if Furman or Wofford (or Davidson) would have favored Gardner-Webb over VMI, to be honest. The same is likely true for Tennessee Tech.

GWU is 33 miles (44 minutes) from Wofford (actually closer than Furman). I'm sure the bean counters would look at that as a short cheap trip. But I suspect our administration is happy just to keep them as an OOC opponent. I don't think WC, FU, or Davy see GWU as bringing anything to the conference.

Our AD is a Citadel grad, and is apparently quite excited about VMI returning.

Besides, we already have enough Baptists in the SoCon :D

[CID1990]

CID the point is if Citadel didn't throw VMI's name in the hat no one else would have. ETSU is added for UTC and WCU, Mercer for Samford and SC schools, VMI for Citadel that is pretty transparent.

VMI basketball RPI- 302
Baseball - 169 - 9th in SoCon
Football record looks like WCU's playing in the Big South
Don't have all women's sports

I have NO issue with VMI as a college, but how anyone can defend their addition to an athletic conference?

That you cannot understand or comprehend what the SoCon's priorities may or may not be is not the most surprising thing in the world. Your school is leaving FCS and the SoCon, and both are dying. Of course our priorities might not be understandable to you.

VMI has more support than any of the schools being vetted.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

Ok, so what about Gardner-Webb and Tennessee Tech? Should they be considered over VMI?

I have wondered about GW myself. My only explanation would be that they are another NC school? Not sure. If given the option between them and CCU I think the conference would go for GW. That said, I think Virginia is the difference between VMI and GW.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

You're correct based on the additions I don't have a clue what your priorities are, the sad part is I'm not sure the SoCon leaders do either.

[CID1990]

You're correct based on the additions I don't have a clue what your priorities are, the sad part is I'm not sure the SoCon leaders do either.

Yes, the league and the division are dying, as you have insinuated before. Good for you guys you are moving out before the implosion of the SoCon ends small college football as we know it. Maybe Furman and Wofford and El CID can continue their Saturday rivalries with badminton.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[The Cats]

No one defends the possible invitation of VMI except Citadel graduates. No one wants VMI except Citadel graduates. No one. Period.

VMI is a fine school, but it brings nothing to the SoCon, hell it brings nothing to the Big South and it does not bring Virginia, it will not help us get Richmond or W&M (that is pure nonsense). That's like saying adding Palo Alto University in California would add California to the mix. xbangx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

VMI helps recruiting and coax CAA members to the SoCon, streeeeeeeeetch.

As for a TV deal the SoCon had a deal with SportsSouth the SoCon leaders deciding wasn't worth the league paying a couple hundred grand for and opted for PBS and now nothing. For me that was the straw.

Just to be clear here. The SoCon leaders you are speaking of are the school's and their reps correct? I always see App guys in particular saying this as if if were some governing body passing legislation on them and something their school is not a part of. From the thread back when this went down I remember that the vote to stop putting up infomercial on SportSouth was a unanimous vote. Am I not remembering this correctly?

The thing I was saying is that trying to pretend CID is talking about markets as a TV deal maker is silly and pretty obvious it was not his point since even with App/GSU and all of their pull a TV deal that did not involve purchasing airwaves time was not doable. Heck I don't even think a local TV outlet paid for the games did they? I never understood why a local TV station didn't televise the App home and away games. The local station in Missoula was paying $100,000/game for most games to do so. I sure would have thought at least App would have that deal in place on their own.

[CID1990]

No one defends the possible invitation of VMI except Citadel graduates. No one wants VMI except Citadel graduates. No one. Period.

The irony is so rich!

So tell us how VMI is getting a look if nobody but The Citadel wants them?



Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

Just to be clear here. The SoCon leaders you are speaking of are the school's and their reps correct? I always see App guys in particular saying this as if if were some governing body passing legislation on them and something their school is not a part of. From the thread back when this went down I remember that the vote to stop putting up infomercial on SportSouth was a unanimous vote. Am I not remembering this correctly?

The thing I was saying is that trying to pretend CID is talking about markets as a TV deal maker is silly and pretty obvious it was not his point since even with App/GSU and all of their pull a TV deal that did not involve purchasing airwaves time was not doable. Heck I don't even think a local TV outlet paid for the games did they? I never understood why a local TV station didn't televise the App home and away games. The local station in Missoula was paying $100,000/game for most games to do so. I sure would have thought at least App would have that deal in place on their own.

Yep, I'm the last person to care about TV deals. It's like wasted time trying to explain simple concepts here.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[PaladinFan]

To me, it signals a clear intention to put focus on basketball. There are simply no options to replace GSU and App in football, but adding both Mercer and ETSU makes the SoCon a much better basketball conference, which is likely the conference's best chance at making money in the future.

I can make a good case for those two, but don't really have a good argument for VMI. I'm sure there is a reason they are being discussed.

[CID1990]

To me, it signals a clear intention to put focus on basketball. There are simply no options to replace GSU and App in football, but adding both Mercer and ETSU makes the SoCon a much better basketball conference, which is likely the conference's best chance at making money in the future.

I can make a good case for those two, but don't really have a good argument for VMI. I'm sure there is a reason they are being discussed.

VMI has traditionally been better than The Citadel in basketball if memory serves, but then that's not saying much.

Right now and since before they left the SoCon they have not had much in football, nobody denies that. But I think that if people look at the choices the conference is making, I think the priorities stand out: footprint, academic profile, and stability. Given what has been happening to college sports over the last few years particularly as it pertains to football, I think those priorities are sound. All three schools bring those. If you add in what a school can bring to the table immediately in football, then you risk stability and in a few years you are scrambling again.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

What happens if division one goes to three tiers for football, with these additions where does that leave the SoCon?

Feel like 1978 to any of you old timers?

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I'm just really glad to be leaving the SoCon. The relationship has been mutually beneficial but never cordial. The Citadel has a good tradition with adequate fan support and great alumni support. Mike Ayers is a great coach and has done a lot for Wofford, but I don't see them doing much when that great coaching staff dissolves. SoCon Football pretty much became the Southland at the end of March.

[kdinva]

VMI has traditionally been better than The Citadel in basketball if memory serves, but then that's not saying much.

Right now and since before they left the SoCon they have not had much in football, nobody denies that. But I think that if people look at the choices the conference is making, I think the priorities stand out: footprint, academic profile, and stability.

well put. :) I am confident us two will be playing each other in football well after the current contract expires in 2016. ;) xcoffeex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

VMI had a better than average hoops team the past two years, FWIW. They nearly made a run through the Big South tournament two years ago as the 6 seed and last year also were upper-half and weren't far from being able to take it, IMO.

VMI you would think would be similar to the academies in that every once in a while you'll get a legendary player going through there, but not having consistent world-beaters year in and year out. It's just the nature of a military college, IMO.

I think bringing back VMI in all sports would be beneficial to the SoCon in large part because of that Citadel rivalry, and especially since so much rivalry leaves the SoCon with App and GeSo leaving. Furman/Wofford ain't Furman/App, and they need to recapture that - not to say Furman/Wofford can't and won't be a white-hot rivalry, but it will take time to develop. It's not there yet.

[fc97]

why do fans of non-voting schools feel the need to interject their opinions?

who cares about gsu fans interpretations of the conference now or then. does this matter to adding any new schools?

who cares what app fans think of markets. does this matter to adding any new schools for the rest of us?

why can't we all just ignore those types of people when they post something designed to cause just what this is. they stirred the pot and some of you fell right into the trap, again.

[The Cats]

But I think that if people look at the choices the conference is making, I think the priorities stand out: footprint, academic profile, and stability.

I bet you typed that with a smile on your face.

How the hell can you say VMI and ESTU would bring stability to the SoCon?

Just look at the movement of both of these schools in the recent past. The one thing they DO NOT BRING is stability. What will happen to either of them in the next few years to cause them to move again? xeyebrowx


VMI brings nothing, let alone stability. xnonoxxnonoxxnonoxxnonoxxnonox

[Apphole]

VMI brings nothing, let alone stability.

One of those elusive conference wins for WCU?

[kdinva]

VMI brings nothing,

xboringx

xzzzzx

[CID1990]

I bet you typed that with a smile on your face.

How the hell can you say VMI and ESTU would bring stability to the SoCon?

Just look at the movement of both of these schools in the recent past. The one thing they DO NOT BRING is stability. What will happen to either of them in the next few years to cause them to move again? xeyebrowx


VMI brings nothing, let alone stability. xnonoxxnonoxxnonoxxnonoxxnonox

Stability means not bringing in schools that will be looking at FBS in the next several years. That is all.

ETSU contributes to this in two ways: it provides glue for UTC, and ETSU does not have the profile of a school that is going to to suddenly go into growth mode and look to the FBS. VMI contributes this for the same reason; they will always be in this level of football.

You never answered my question, BTW.

[asumike83]

I really don't see the flight risk in CCU, they are a long way from even considering FBS. ETSU looking to the OVC in the relatively near future seems much more likely.

[chattownmocs]

UTC is very weak right now transitioning between administrations. I guess they are just willing to go along with anything. Coming out publicly stating we were happy in the SOCON was a mistake. We should have more leverage than some of these private school but the administration is letting those schools jerk them around. "You give us VMI, we'll give you ETSU" Im sorry but F that, if they are going to add 2 more private schools and one public school than we need to get the F out and take ETSU and Kennessaw with us.

[Sandlapper Spike]

VMI is a public school.

[CID1990]

I really don't see the flight risk in CCU, they are a long way from even considering FBS. ETSU looking to the OVC in the relatively near future seems much more likely.

Rather than make assurances otherwise, CCU's recent staffing decisions are not ones a school would make if they wanted to convince a conference that they do not have at least an eventual eye to moving up.

[chattownmocs]

VMI is a public school.

Thanks for the correction. To me their profile is much more closely related to the private schools in the conference.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

UTC is very weak right now transitioning between administrations. I guess they are just willing to go along with anything. Coming out publicly stating we were happy in the SOCON was a mistake. We should have more leverage than some of these private school but the administration is letting those schools jerk them around. "You give us VMI, we'll give you ETSU" Im sorry but F that, if they are going to add 2 more private schools and one public school than we need to get the F out and take ETSU and Kennessaw with us.

I think Kennesaw will have a hard time with football. They'll get plenty of decent players, but they'll have a hard time winning recruiting battles against schools with more traditional environments. Kennesaw is a last choice commuter school for most of it's students.

[Apphole]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHgim_cCQAAMs-_.jpg

[rokamortis]

Thanks for the correction. To me their profile is much more closely related to the private schools in the conference.

Yes. Like the Citadel and William and Mary - public schools that seem to be more in line with private schools.

[rokamortis]

Rather than make assurances otherwise, CCU's recent staffing decisions are not ones a school would make if they wanted to convince a conference that they do not have at least an eventual eye to moving up.

Please elaborate.

[CID1990]

..

This is why people give you guys crap on this board.

[Jiggs]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHgim_cCQAAMs-_.jpg

Women and children first!

[asumike83]

Rather than make assurances otherwise, CCU's recent staffing decisions are not ones a school would make if they wanted to convince a conference that they do not have at least an eventual eye to moving up.

I suppose so but at the same time, almost any investment made to improve the football program or facilities could likely be viewed as evidence of a desire to move up as well. With as much as the entire DI landscape is changing, you'd be hard-pressed to find any program that you can say with certainty would absolutely not entertain the idea of a move if the support was there.

It makes sense with schools like Liberty, JMU, Jax State, etc. who are all but ready right now. Schools like ETSU or CCU on the other hand, have a long ways to go before that would even be on the table. If either of them wound up in the FBS, it would be after long-term sustained success and fan support that would benefit the SoCon.

[CID1990]

I suppose so but at the same time, almost any investment made to improve the football program or facilities could likely be viewed as evidence of a desire to move up as well. With as much as the entire DI landscape is changing, you'd be hard-pressed to find any program that you can say with certainty would absolutely not entertain the idea of a move if the support was there.

It makes sense with schools like Liberty, JMU, Jax State, etc. who are all but ready right now. Schools like ETSU or CCU on the other hand, have a long ways to go before that would even be on the table. If either of them wound up in the FBS, it would be after long-term sustained success and fan support that would benefit the SoCon.

I know CCU is at least a few years away, but the conference needs to be looking forward by at least ten years.

That said, CCU is still in SC and you just aren't going to get the other SC schools to go for it. Even if all of the other problems or potential issues were off the table, CCU is going to have trouble getting in the SoCon. If Lenoir Rhyne or Lees McRae suddenly grew into the FCS and built respectable programs, ASU would oppose their membership in the SoCon (if ASU was still around) for the same reasons.

[Apphole]

This is why people give you guys crap on this board.

Never let go, Rose. Never let go.

[The Cats]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BHgim_cCQAAMs-_.jpg


Just what you'd expect from an ASU fan.

No class.

[Apphole]

Just what you'd expect from an ASU fan.

No class.

Oh lighten up, Francis. It's a funny photoshop job that other SoConers have gotten a kick out of.

No sense of humor.

[The Cats]

One of those elusive conference wins for WCU?

Let us worry about our record and wins, we don't need or want your imput.

I'd rather not have a win than bring in VMI.

[CID1990]

Never let go, Rose. Never let go.

Remember this next time you and Saint decide to whine about how everybody is picking on you and jealous about ASU's move to FBS.

[CID1990]

I'd rather not have a win than bring in VMI.

It's possible you could have both.

[rokamortis]

I know CCU is at least a few years away, but the conference needs to be looking forward by at least ten years.

That said, CCU is still in SC and you just aren't going to get the other SC schools to go for it. Even if all of the other problems or potential issues were off the table, CCU is going to have trouble getting in the SoCon. If Lenoir Rhyne or Lees McRae suddenly grew into the FCS and built respectable programs, ASU would oppose their membership in the SoCon (if ASU was still around) for the same reasons.

The moving up talk is a red herring - so thanks for acknowledging.

The other comment is brutal but honest. We aren't attractive to most of the schools and I get that. I think we'd be a great conference mate but it isn't going to happen so time to move on.

[Apphole]

Let us worry about our record and wins, we don't need or want your imput.

I'd rather not have a win than bring in VMI.

Hey man, we're in total agreement there. Regarding VMI to the SoCon as a bad idea, that is. Not your misspelling of 'input.'

Seems to me like you'd love to be on one of the life boats. But that would be very classless of you. Right?

[Apphole]

Remember this next time you and Saint decide to whine about how everybody is picking on you and jealous about ASU's move to FBS.

Why, that is precisely why I would make a meme like that. To stick it to you jealous rubes for that kind of BS. And to entertain the App fanbase of course.

[The Cats]

xboringx

xzzzzx


Rather than sitting back and letting Citadel fans fight your battle, why don't you tell us what VMI will bring to the SoCon? or don't your know?

[Apphole]

The moving up talk is a red herring - so thanks for acknowledging.

The other comment is brutal but honest. We aren't attractive to most of the schools and I get that. I think we'd be a great conference mate but it isn't going to happen so time to move on.

Don't sell yourself short. You are a better candidate than all three mentioned in this thread. Politics are what are keeping you out.

[The Cats]

Don't sell yourself short. You are a better candidate than all three mentioned in this thread. Politics are what are keeping you out.

CCU would top the list for most WCU fans as well.

Not much to be gained by bringing back two re-treads that couldn't make it the first time around, and a private school (like we need another one) that's never played football.

[CID1990]

Why, that is precisely why I would make a meme like that. To stick it to you jealous rubes for that kind of BS. And to entertain the App fanbase of course.

You can try to turn it around if you like, but you two are well known here for bashing both FCS and the SoCon. Don't try to play it as if you have somehow been picked on, Opie.

Shouldn't you be busy mending fences over on the SunBeltBBS? They were tired of you guys' crap, too.

[CID1990]

CCU would top the list for most WCU fans as well.

Not much to be gained by bringing back two re-treads that couldn't make it the first time around, and a private school (like we need another one) that's never played football.

Has WCU ever played football?

If CCU was in Hickory, the SoCon would add them in a heartbeat and then WCU could begin a new jug rivalry they'd never win.

[PaladinFan]

Yes. Like the Citadel and William and Mary - public schools that seem to be more in line with private schools.

I've never understood this line of thinking. The SoCon has never had a majority of private institutions. I really don't even know what it means to be "in line" with private schools.

I just always assume people say "directional state school" and "everyone else."

[PaladinFan]

I'm just really glad to be leaving the SoCon. The relationship has been mutually beneficial but never cordial. The Citadel has a good tradition with adequate fan support and great alumni support. Mike Ayers is a great coach and has done a lot for Wofford, but I don't see them doing much when that great coaching staff dissolves. SoCon Football pretty much became the Southland at the end of March.

Are those just guesses?

Would it be nice to keep the conference intact? Sure. Is Georgia Southern the be-all/end-all of athletic programs? Hardly. GSU has a strong football program, but are mediocre in just about everything else.

I realize football is the bell cow, but not at this level of football (or the SunBelt). You can make an argument that Steph Curry by himself made more money for the SoCon than all of the App and GSU national title football teams put together.

[The Cats]

Has WCU ever played football?

If CCU was in Hickory, the SoCon would add them in a heartbeat and then WCU could begin a new jug rivalry they'd never win.

At least CCU would bring the three major sports immediately, and be competitive in all three. WCU is not looking to add teams that it may defeat, we want to strengthen the conference, not bring in a re-tread that left because it couldn't compete in the SoCon.

[CID1990]

At least CCU would bring the three major sports immediately, and be competitive in all three. WCU is not looking to add teams that it may defeat, we want to strengthen the conference, not bring in a re-tread that left because it couldn't compete in the SoCon.

Your tune would be different if there were already three football playing schools from NC in the SoCon and the conference was looking to add a fourth.

[Apphole]

You can try to turn it around if you like, but you two are well known here for bashing both FCS and the SoCon. Don't try to play it as if you have somehow been picked on, Opie.

Shouldn't you be busy mending fences over on the SunBeltBBS? They were tired of you guys' crap, too.
Nah that was the Stink fans. Most people love us over there. Well, except for the Stink fans.

[The Cats]

Your tune would be different if there were already three football playing schools from NC in the SoCon and the conference was looking to add a fourth.

We already compete with the following North Carolina schools for players:

Appalachian State, Campbell, Catawba, Charlotte, Chowan, Davidson, Duke, East Carolina, Elon, Fayetteville State, Gardner-Webb, Guilford, JC Smith, Lees-McRae, Lenoir-Rhyne, Livingstone, Mars Hill, NC State, NC A&T, NC Central, UNC Chapel Hill, Shaw, UNC Pembroke, Wake Forest, Wingate, and Winston-Salem State.

I don't think having three other of theses schools would bother WCU one way or the other. As a matter, I think it would be nice to have more NC schools in the SoCon.

[Sir William]

We already compete with the following North Carolina schools for players:

Appalachian State, Campbell, Catawba, Charlotte, Chowan, Davidson, Duke, East Carolina, Elon, Fayetteville State, Gardner-Webb, Guilford, JC Smith, Lees-McRae, Lenoir-Rhyne, Livingstone, Mars Hill, NC State, NC A&T, NC Central, UNC Chapel Hill, Shaw, UNC Pembroke, Wake Forest, Wingate, and Winston-Salem State.


You're not really competing with the above bold ones...you're not even in the conversation with prospects who are considering these schools.

[The Cats]

Rather than make assurances otherwise, CCU's recent staffing decisions are not ones a school would make if they wanted to convince a conference that they do not have at least an eventual eye to moving up.

The SoCon is losing two of the best FCS football playing teams in the history of the classification.

Your answer to that loss for the conference is to bring in one of the worst FCS football playing teams in the history of the classification.

I know we can't replace ASU/GSU with teams of their caliber, but hell, we don't need to go in the complete opposite direction with the worst team in the SoCon footprint to replace them either.

CCU brings excellent baseball to the table, something both WCU and the Citadel can appreciate, and very good football and decent basketball. Not only does VMI bring bad men's sports programs to the table, they only sponsor 6 female sports, 3 of which the SoCon does does not offer, so they only bring cross country, track & field, and women's soccer to the table.

VMI is an excellent academic school, no doubt, I'd be proud for my son or daughter to attend VMI, but they are not what the SoCon needs as a sports member right now.

[CID1990]

Nah that was the Stink fans. Most people love us over there. Well, except for the Stink fans.

Ok maybe you're right.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

The SoCon is losing two of the best FCS football playing teams in the history of the classification.

Your answer to that loss for the conference is to bring in one of the worst FCS football playing teams in the history of the classification.

I know we can't replace ASU/GSU with teams of their caliber, but hell, we don't need to go in the complete opposite direction with the worst team in the SoCon footprint to replace them either.

CCU brings excellent baseball to the table, something both WCU and the Citadel can appreciate, and very good football and decent basketball. Not only does VMI bring bad men's sports programs to the table, they only sponsor 6 female sports, 3 of which the SoCon does does not offer, so they only bring cross country, track & field, and women's soccer to the table.

VMI is an excellent academic school, no doubt, I'd be proud for my son or daughter to attend VMI, but they are not what the SoCon needs as a sports member right now.

They would be a 4th South Carolina school. It's not happening. If Furman, Wofford, or El Cid left the SoCon, the maybe it would happen.

But- all that said, CCU needs to get to 6 votes, and so at least 3 schools not in SC are also saying no to CCU. They just have too many negatives, athletics aside. I have never argued that they would not bring a lot to the table athletically. That's just not at issue here. There are other things that matter as well, like academic profile, location, likelihood of moving up in the next decade. Plus, they would add another long trip for Samford, probably would be a disincentive to ETSU and Mercer joining, the list just goes on and on.

So I am not down on CCU (except when it comes to geography), I am just putting myself in the shoes of the conference itself, as well as the schools that would likely vote against CCU. WCU and UTC might well be the only schools (football playing) in favor of CCU, and even that's not certain.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

We already compete with the following North Carolina schools for players:

Appalachian State, Campbell, Catawba, Charlotte, Chowan, Davidson, Duke, East Carolina, Elon, Fayetteville State, Gardner-Webb, Guilford, JC Smith, Lees-McRae, Lenoir-Rhyne, Livingstone, Mars Hill, NC State, NC A&T, NC Central, UNC Chapel Hill, Shaw, UNC Pembroke, Wake Forest, Wingate, and Winston-Salem State.

I don't think having three other of theses schools would bother WCU one way or the other. As a matter, I think it would be nice to have more NC schools in the SoCon.

Two things:

1) if you think you are competing with UNC, NCSU, WF and ECU for players

And

2) if you truly are in fact competing with Lees McRae and Chowan-

For recruits, then that might go a long way to explaining some of the football woes at WCU.

You are competing with the other FCS schools which means the SoCon, Big South, and HBCUs. It's just like I said in the other post about ASU- if Brevard suddenly became a viable FCS school, WCU would not be enthusiastic about bringing them into the SoCon.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

CID I've been fairly respectful and rational in my discussion. You just don't like the valid points I bring. Disagreeing and supporting one's position is now put in the same category as cute pictures? Nice try, the conference will get weaker due to the decision made this offseason.

[chattownmocs]

We would beat the brakes off of this conference and be relevant nationally for the next few years. After that it would just be beating the piss out of this conference. I get that at the moment just making the playoffs for the first time in 30 years would feel great, but at some point you are going to want something more. Recruits are not going to want to come to this conference and play a bunch of piss **** football programs. Wofford and Furman need to think about whether they can sleep at night with great w/l records but an inferior product.


This new and interim administration needs to get their heads out of their asses. Any FCS conference in this region would love to have us. Why are we happy with this garbage.

[zilla]

Speaking hypothetically, who will the SoCon add if Elon (CAA) & Davidson (A10) bolt?

Would Coastal be in the mix then? Kennesaw State? Would the league stand pat at 10 schools?

[The Cats]

.......the conference will get weaker due to the decision made this offseason.

They don't care as long as they get VMI back. Very short sighted or maybe that's just what they want. That small enrollment, private school (with two private wannabees) conference.

If this goes through, they will have it within 10 years, I can't see any of the public schools (other than the two ROTC schools) remaining long term in a situation like they are creating.

I don't understand the chancellors of WCU, UNCG, and UTC voting for this, unless they are like minded in knowing they will not remain in the conference they are helping create only short term.

[Sir William]

Wofford and Furman need to think about whether they can sleep at night with great w/l records but an inferior product.

That may or may not be a valid point...but the fact that someone from UTC is trying to make a point about won/loss records and an "inferior product" is beyond laughable.

[The Cats]

Speaking hypothetically, who will the SoCon add if Elon (CAA) & Davidson (A10) bolt?

Would Coastal be in the mix then? Kennesaw State? Would the league stand pat at 10 schools?

At least two of your opponents for entry into the SoCon would then be gone, but you still would face that blockade from the South Carolina schools.

My personal feeling is neither will leave the SoCon.

[The Cats]

That may or may not be a valid point...but the fact that someone from UTC is trying to make a point about won/loss records and an "inferior product" is beyond laughable.

You speak as if Furman has been setting the woods on fire lately.

[Sir William]

You speak as if Furman has been setting the woods on fire lately.

I never said a word about Furman. We know what we have to do to get back on top. My point is that UTC doesn't need to bark up trees concerning "inferiority". Sorry it went over your Cullowhee-educated head.

[kdinva]

Rather than sitting back and letting Citadel fans fight your battle, why don't you tell us what VMI will bring to the SoCon? or don't your know?

I can say with some certainty about 80%+ of VMI alums were against the move to the Big south. The powers that be assumed the move would not hurt recruiting, alumni donations, etc.........they were wrong on both counts. I am not slamming the young cadet-athletes that compete, but they can't fight gun battles with knives....

[The Cats]

I never said a word about Furman. We know what we have to do to get back on top. My point is that UTC doesn't need to bark up trees concerning "inferiority". Sorry it went over your head.

It didn't go over my head, I don't don't think people living in a glass house (like Furman fans) should be throwing rocks at others as well. I wasn't taking up for chattownmocs, he's out there on his own.

[The Cats]

I can say with some certainty about 80%+ of VMI alums were against the move to the Big south. The powers that be assumed the move would not hurt recruiting, alumni donations, etc.........they were wrong on both counts. I am not slamming the young cadet-athletes that compete, but they can't fight gun battles with knives....

That's a compelling case to bring VMI back to the SoCon.

VMI's recruiting and alumni donations are down.

Why didn't you say that in the first place, that changes my mind.

[Sir William]

It didn't go over my head, I don't don't think people living in a glass house (like Furman fans) should be throwing rocks at others as well. I wasn't taking up for chattownmocs, he's out there on his own.

It went over your head.

[The Cats]

It went over your head.

Since you're a furple fan, what you say goes, huh?

[chattownmocs]

That may or may not be a valid point...but the fact that someone from UTC is trying to make a point about won/loss records and an "inferior product" is beyond laughable.

Open your eyes man. At best you guys are going to be battling it out with us now. That is if we don't completely dominate you. Smell the coffee man, the roses are dead. The 90a are over. Russ Huesman is going to lead a competitive football program. Furman is not capable of owning us anymore. That climate is over.

The question is whether we are going to be battling for a nationally relevant conference or an irrelevant one.

[CID1990]

CID I've been fairly respectful and rational in my discussion. You just don't like the valid points I bring. Disagreeing and supporting one's position is now put in the same category as cute pictures? Nice try, the conference will get weaker due to the decision made this offseason.

You mean valid points like The Citadel being THE influential juggernaut in the SoCon? Capable of mjnd controlling Wofford, Furman and two or three others into voting for VMI?

That kind of valid point?


Sent from the center of the universe.

[CID1990]

Open your eyes man. At best you guys are going to be battling it out with us now. That is if we don't completely dominate you. Smell the coffee man, the roses are dead. The 90a are over. Russ Huesman is going to lead a competitive football program. Furman is not capable of owning us anymore. That climate is over.

The question is whether we are going to be battling for a nationally relevant conference or an irrelevant one.

Actually, the real question we should all be asking is why CCU or any other school want to come to the SoCon when they will only be assraped annually by the Borg of college athletics?


Sent from the center of the universe.

[PaladinFan]

Open your eyes man. At best you guys are going to be battling it out with us now. That is if we don't completely dominate you. Smell the coffee man, the roses are dead. The 90a are over. Russ Huesman is going to lead a competitive football program. Furman is not capable of owning us anymore. That climate is over.

The question is whether we are going to be battling for a nationally relevant conference or an irrelevant one.

You're off your rocker. UTC has had several medicore seasons in a row, which are a might bit better than they were historically. If there is one team in the conference UTC has no trash talk credibility with, it is Furman - a program that has owned the Mocs like few programs in college athletics. UTC has beaten Furman in football, what, twice since 1994? I'm not even sure you have living alumni that remember seeing the last win over Furman in Chattanooga.

Notwithstanding that, in overall athletics UTC does not even field programs in two of the sports where the SoCon is nationally relevant (men's soccer and baseball).

[kdinva]

That's a compelling case to bring VMI back to the SoCon.

VMI's recruiting and alumni donations are down.

Why didn't you say that in the first place, that changes my mind.

down for a couple of seasons, donations to the scholarship fund are now at record highs, it was a two or three year "protest" by donors, if you will. Going back to the SoCon will only help recruiting more, with what the prospects will know about conf. competition, etc.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/college/big-south/article_80b1a55d-3529-5a53-becf-946d4fcaffa4.html

[chattownmocs]

You're off your rocker. UTC has had several medicore seasons in a row, which are a might bit better than they were historically. If there is one team in the conference UTC has no trash talk credibility with, it is Furman - a program that has owned the Mocs like few programs in college athletics. UTC has beaten Furman in football, what, twice since 1994? I'm not even sure you have living alumni that remember seeing the last win over Furman in Chattanooga.

Notwithstanding that, in overall athletics UTC does not even field programs in two of the sports where the SoCon is nationally relevant (men's soccer and baseball).

I don't think anyone was trying to take away your string of dominance, but it's over. It's not coming back. I was actually being generous with my previous post. If BJ Coleman didn't get hurt it would be 3 in a row right now. We definitely look significantly better for this upcoming year so there would be 4. You guys just don't have the talent anymore to dominate anyone. Certainly not the current Chattanooga program. In reality, we are probably going to kick your *** 4 out of 5 times in the near future. It doesn't look to bright for you guys against us.

[PaladinFan]

I don't think anyone was trying to take away your string of dominance, but it's over. It's not coming back. I was actually being generous with my previous post. If BJ Coleman didn't get hurt it would be 3 in a row right now. We definitely look significantly better for this upcoming year so there would be 4. You guys just don't have the talent anymore to dominate anyone. Certainly not the current Chattanooga program. In reality, we are probably going to kick your *** 4 out of 5 times in the near future. It doesn't look to bright for you guys against us.

I suppose we'll see. From my seats, the best Chattanooga teams in anyone's memory have been just slightly better than the worst Furman lull in 20 years.

UTC has always had good talent. They have always taken on boatloads of UT castoffs and misfits. They didn't have coaching. Husemann may be the guy, but even he's getting to the point where it is looking a lot like there's a ceiling on his capabilities.

[CID1990]

I suppose we'll see. From my seats, the best Chattanooga teams in anyone's memory have been just slightly better than the worst Furman lull in 20 years.

UTC has always had good talent. They have always taken on boatloads of UT castoffs and misfits. They didn't have coaching. Husemann may be the guy, but even he's getting to the point where it is looking a lot like there's a ceiling on his capabilities.

Just about any other coach in the SoCon could have taken UTC deep into the playoffs over the last two years. If Huesman doesn't win the conference outright this year and still keeps his job, then I'd say Furman and just about everybody else will have even chances of beating them going forward. No matter how much talent they bring.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Saint3333]

You mean like the Wofford AD that is a Citadel grad...

I'm not the one that made the claim first talk to your fellow alums.

You've yet to provide athletic examples of our VMI helps, I provided RPI data for the top three sports you seem to be ignoring.

[CID1990]

You mean like the Wofford AD that is a Citadel grad...

I'm not the one that made the claim first talk to your fellow alums.

You've yet to provide athletic examples of our VMI helps, I provided RPI data for the top three sports you seem to be ignoring.

What are you blathering about now?

Youve already been told that the SoCon's priorities for new schools is not based entirely in athletics. I'm not sure why this is not computing with you, but then you've been inventing throughout this whole thread. Like I said, I'm done debating this with you. CCU is not getting an invite for the reasons told to you. VMI is, for the same reasons, as are ETSU and Mercer. If you want to continue with the "The Citadel is forcing everyone to accept VMI", then so be it. VMI does not help the conference RPI, and I have never said that they do.

BTW we already put the Citdog saying El Cid is master of the universe meme to bed. I suggest you go back and link it so we can laugh at you for taking him seriously.

Nobody is buying that you are somehow altruistic about the SoCon there, Gandhi, so give it up.

[PaladinFan]

You mean like the Wofford AD that is a Citadel grad...

I'm not the one that made the claim first talk to your fellow alums.

You've yet to provide athletic examples of our VMI helps, I provided RPI data for the top three sports you seem to be ignoring.

VMI probably doesn't help. I imagine there's a good reason for selecting them. Perhaps they are set to kickoff a capital campaign or something. Who knows.

I think we can all agree that the SoCon is not going to take on a member institution simply to provide a rivalry to the Citadel. The Citadel already has rivals. There is some benefit to the conference somewhere in there. It is pretty apparent here no one understands what that benefit is, but its nonsense to suggest that VMI would be invited "just because."

[Saint3333]

Believe whatever you want. Is it hard to believe that I'd like to see the only conference I've ever known with App continue to be a top 3 FCS conference? I grew up in the southeast and would like to see the SoCon compete and beat conference from the midwest and especially northeast.

The SoCon is making a decision to throw that away, congrats Citadel.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sounds like I need to add UTC/Wofford to my rivalry list. In fact, maybe Furman can take over the Jug from App State since they have a similar dominant record over UTC like App has over WCU.

Of course they need to beat ASU this year to get it ;)

[ASUMountaineer]

You can try to turn it around if you like, but you two are well known here for bashing both FCS and the SoCon. Don't try to play it as if you have somehow been picked on, Opie.

Shouldn't you be busy mending fences over on the SunBeltBBS? They were tired of you guys' crap, too.

I haven't seen your reports lately, so I guess you haven't been keeping up. They like us now, but they hate Georgia Southern. Seems like familiar territory.

[Apphole]

Of course they need to beat ASU this year to get it ;)

No SoCon school is beating us this year...

[ASUMountaineer]

Are those just guesses?

Would it be nice to keep the conference intact? Sure. Is Georgia Southern the be-all/end-all of athletic programs? Hardly. GSU has a strong football program, but are mediocre in just about everything else.

I realize football is the bell cow, but not at this level of football (or the SunBelt). You can make an argument that Steph Curry by himself made more money for the SoCon than all of the App and GSU national title football teams put together.

Hard to disagree with that. Of course, that helps explain why App State and GSU were looking elsewhere.

[CID1990]

They like us now

Have yourself a few winning seasons there, then get an eye for CUSA and I am sure Saint and Apphole will take care of that situation for you.

[Apphole]

Have yourself a few winning seasons there, then get an eye for CUSA and I am sure Saint and Apphole will take care of that situation for you.

Unless CUSA football makes some drastic improvements, I have no desire to enter that league. Either way, come on man, not everyone is as uptight as you. Some people find me charming, believe it or not.

[PaladinFan]

Sounds like I need to add UTC/Wofford to my rivalry list. In fact, maybe Furman can take over the Jug from App State since they have a similar dominant record over UTC like App has over WCU.

Of course they need to beat ASU this year to get it ;)

The only SoCon school that has a winning record against Furman is Georgia Southern. Looks like it will stay that way for quite some time.

[PaladinFan]

Believe whatever you want. Is it hard to believe that I'd like to see the only conference I've ever known with App continue to be a top 3 FCS conference? I grew up in the southeast and would like to see the SoCon compete and beat conference from the midwest and especially northeast.

The SoCon is making a decision to throw that away, congrats Citadel.

I mean, pot, call the kettle black. App State has been bounced from the playoffs at home by teams from the CAA and mid-west something like 4 of the last 5 seasons.

[etsudolfan]

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/may/03/socon-targets-vmi-etsu-mercer/?sportscollege

looking forward to UTC and ETSU going head to head again! we have a great rivalry history with you all!

[walliver]

No SoCon school is beating us this year...

Where is Citdog when you need him?

[Saint3333]

I mean, pot, call the kettle black. App State has been bounced from the playoffs at home by teams from the CAA and mid-west something like 4 of the last 5 seasons.

Yep and the 5 before that we did the bouncing. GSU did as well. We can't win them all.

[PaladinFan]

Yep and the 5 before that we did the bouncing. GSU did as well. We can't win them all.

I guess I don't see your argument. It bizarre to say SoCon no longer competes on the national stage in football, but fail to mention App State has had a large part in that with embarrassing early exists at home year after year despite routinely being granted high seeds.

It also ignores Wofford, who has more playoff wins in the last five years than App State and isn't going anywhere.

[GlassOnion]

I guess I don't see your argument. It bizarre to say SoCon no longer competes on the national stage in football, but fail to mention App State has had a large part in that with embarrassing early exists at home year after year despite routinely being granted high seeds.

It also ignores Wofford, who has more playoff wins in the last five years than App State and isn't going anywhere.

Routinely being granted high seeds? App hasnt been seeded since 2010, when we lost to eventual NC Villanova. And 2009 we went all the way to the Semi finals and lost by a yard at Montana, in one of the best, most watched FCS games ever. Where is the shame in that?

Meanwhile, Furman continues to sit at home.

[Saint3333]

Do some research before you post.

Last five years playoffs wins:

Wofford - 2
App - 4

Do you really want to compare playoffs history of App and GSU vs. the rest of the SoCon?

App has really embarrassed the SoCon the last 10 years, wow that is a new one.

[Apphole]

Where is Citdog when you need him?

Still dodging his crow. He was proven wrong once and for all and can't bare to face it.

[ASUMountaineer]

Have yourself a few winning seasons there, then get an eye for CUSA and I am sure Saint and Apphole will take care of that situation for you.

xlolx

[asumike83]

I guess I don't see your argument. It bizarre to say SoCon no longer competes on the national stage in football, but fail to mention App State has had a large part in that with embarrassing early exists at home year after year despite routinely being granted high seeds.

It also ignores Wofford, who has more playoff wins in the last five years than App State and isn't going anywhere.

Incorrect. App has had early exits the past two years and were not seeded either time. Unless you consider a 2010 loss in the round of 8 to the defending national champ an embarrassing early exit, that statement makes no sense. App also has twice as many playoff wins as Wofford in the last five years.

[ASUMountaineer]

Incorrect. App has had early exits the past two years and were not seeded either time, unless you consider the 2010 loss in the round of 8 to the defending national champ an early exit. App also has twice as many playoff wins as Wofford in the last five years.

Facts--so?

[PaladinFan]

Routinely being granted high seeds? App hasnt been seeded since 2010, when we lost to eventual NC Villanova. And 2009 we went all the way to the Semi finals and lost by a yard at Montana, in one of the best, most watched FCS games ever. Where is the shame in that?

Meanwhile, Furman continues to sit at home.

I was mistaken on my timing. Wofford has won more playoff games in the past three years (and they do it all on the road).

I'm not saying there's shame in any of it. It is just the same old song and dance of "well, the SoCon used to be good...." I don't make any apologies for Furman. Furman basically flew the small college flag of FCS football solo for twenty years. They earned their stripes just as App earned theirs.

At the end of the day, I just get annoyed with the constant trashing of the conference. By trashing the conference, you effectively denigrate the member schools that play within the conference (what is a conference other than a collection of universities?).

Furman has been down a few years - and that happens. No program flies high forever. I just do not watch Furman (even a down Furman) play App and GSU and say "wow, those guys are just out of our league." I mean, the football is pretty much the same as it always has been. I mean, it took playoff bound App until the final play of the game to beat the worst Furman team in 20 years at home. The conference will take a hit the next few years, but it'll be back to normal soon enough. I just don't get the need to throw the conference under the bus at every opportunity.

[GlassOnion]

I was mistaken on my timing. Wofford has won more playoff games in the past three years (and they do it all on the road).

I'm not saying there's shame in any of it. It is just the same old song and dance of "well, the SoCon used to be good...." I don't make any apologies for Furman. Furman basically flew the small college flag of FCS football solo for twenty years. They earned their stripes just as App earned theirs.

At the end of the day, I just get annoyed with the constant trashing of the conference. By trashing the conference, you effectively denigrate the member schools that play within the conference (what is a conference other than a collection of universities?).

Furman has been down a few years - and that happens. No program flies high forever. I just do not watch Furman (even a down Furman) play App and GSU and say "wow, those guys are just out of our league." I mean, the football is pretty much the same as it always has been. I mean, it took playoff bound App until the final play of the game to beat the worst Furman team in 20 years at home. The conference will take a hit the next few years, but it'll be back to normal soon enough. I just don't get the need to throw the conference under the bus at every opportunity.

First of all, App and GSU were pointing out why they were leaving, which tends to point out negatives. Pointing out the Socon looked to be declining big time is just stating the obvious The declinging part looks pretty darn accurate. Sorry if you dont want to talk about it, but it is what it is. The two best football programs leave, and are replaced by one of the worst football programs in the country, a program with no scholarships, and a program that hasnt existed for years. The two best basketball teams leave, and now what?

Its not exactly been a banner year for the Socon, and most of it can be lain on the conference leadership decisions.

And App hasnt exactly been that great the past few years. The fact we can still win a share of the Socon just proves the rest of the Socon isnt really that strong.

[SU DOG]

I was mistaken on my timing. Wofford has won more playoff games in the past three years (and they do it all on the road).

I'm not saying there's shame in any of it. It is just the same old song and dance of "well, the SoCon used to be good...." I don't make any apologies for Furman. Furman basically flew the small college flag of FCS football solo for twenty years. They earned their stripes just as App earned theirs.

At the end of the day, I just get annoyed with the constant trashing of the conference. By trashing the conference, you effectively denigrate the member schools that play within the conference (what is a conference other than a collection of universities?).

Furman has been down a few years - and that happens. No program flies high forever. I just do not watch Furman (even a down Furman) play App and GSU and say "wow, those guys are just out of our league." I mean, the football is pretty much the same as it always has been. I mean, it took playoff bound App until the final play of the game to beat the worst Furman team in 20 years at home. The conference will take a hit the next few years, but it'll be back to normal soon enough. I just don't get the need to throw the conference under the bus at every opportunity.

Many of my thoughts are expressed here. I want to add a couple of facts also. First off, I do agree that the SoCon has taken a serious blow. IMO, the hit is much harder in football. For those that may not have checked, Mercer and ETSU might bring more to the basketball table than you think. The RPI is not perfect, but it is a good indicator. This past season, Mercer had a considerably higher RPI than C of C. beating Bama and Florida State on the road. ETSU had a rough year, granted, BUT has made the NCAA playoffs 4 of the past 10 years and the NIT in another - not a bad track record IMO. As good as Davidson? NO, but these 2 do bring some respectable records and basketball history to the conference. BTW, Mercer this week is also ranked #1 in the nation in the Mid-Major Baseball Poll.

Football will take care of itself. Is there any SoCon school left that hasn't shown signs recently of becoming more competitive? I guess that is a debatable question, but I still believe that we will hold our own with any FCS league out there. I have wished good luck to those leaving, but it bothers me to see those same folks acting like they have just fled Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Mike Barber @RTD_MikeBarber
SoCon committee's visit to VMI tomorrow is a go. Conference reps will tour Lexington campus, see facilities, meet coaches & administrators.

[PaladinFan]

Many of my thoughts are expressed here. I want to add a couple of facts also. First off, I do agree that the SoCon has taken a serious blow. IMO, the hit is much harder in football. For those that may not have checked, Mercer and ETSU might bring more to the basketball table than you think. The RPI is not perfect, but it is a good indicator. This past season, Mercer had a considerably higher RPI than C of C. beating Bama and Florida State on the road. ETSU had a rough year, granted, BUT has made the NCAA playoffs 4 of the past 10 years and the NIT in another - not a bad track record IMO. As good as Davidson? NO, but these 2 do bring some respectable records and basketball history to the conference. BTW, Mercer this week is also ranked #1 in the nation in the Mid-Major Baseball Poll.

Football will take care of itself. Is there any SoCon school left that hasn't shown signs recently of becoming more competitive? I guess that is a debatable question, but I still believe that we will hold our own with any FCS league out there. I have wished good luck to those leaving, but it bothers me to see those same folks acting like they have just fled Sodom and Gomorrah.

Mercer would right now have the best basketball team and best baseball team in the SoCon in my opinion. The only comparable basketball team currently in the SoCon to Mercer is Davidson, and Davidson is much better than every other team in the conference.

The hit will come in football, there's no question. There's no way the SoCon can replace those two programs.

When you look at football as a losing investment (and for virtually every D-1 program, it is a losing investment), you can make a case that the SoCon is doing the best thing it can, and replacing the two departing football schools with much better basketball programs.

[walliver]

For much of the last decade the SoCon has been a 2-bid league in football and only 1 in 2003. It has only been the last 2 years when the conference worked its way back to 3. After the Sunbelters leave, it will still be a 2-3 (occasionally 4 now that 24 teams are in) bid league. We may have fewer first round byes, and fewer deep runs, but fans will still have enjoyable Saturday afternoons watching quality football.

ETSU was bad at the end, but their football program was de-emphasized prior to being dropped. They have a change to start over, and recent startups like ODU, CCU, and FAU have had early success (of course then there is Georgia State). Mercer also has the potential of early success, especially since it will now by the only non-HBCU FCS team in Georgia.

VMI may be Elon's replacement and will be. Step down in athletics, but a step up in character.

If Davey leaves as rumored, we just need to get UNC-G to leave and we will have a very stable conference.

[The Cats]

For much of the last decade the SoCon has been a 2-bid league in football and only 1 in 2003. It has only been the last 2 years when the conference worked its way back to 3. After the Sunbelters leave, it will still be a 2-3 (occasionally 4 now that 24 teams are in) bid league. We may have fewer first round byes, and fewer deep runs, but fans will still have enjoyable Saturday afternoons watching quality football.

ETSU was bad at the end, but their football program was de-emphasized prior to being dropped. They have a change to start over, and recent startups like ODU, CCU, and FAU have had early success (of course then there is Georgia State). Mercer also has the potential of early success, especially since it will now by the only non-HBCU FCS team in Georgia.

VMI may be Elon's replacement and will be. Step down in athletics, but a step up in character.

If Davey leaves as rumored, we just need to get UNC-G to leave and we will have a very stable conference.

Nice positive spin on a crummy situation.

Once you get UNCG to leave, why not WCU, UTC, and ETSU? Then the SoCon will be really stable.

[CID1990]

Nice positive spin on a crummy situation.

Once you get UNCG to leave, why not WCU, UTC, and ETSU? Then the SoCon will be really stable.

WCU is living proof that being in close proximity to quality football does nothing for your own program. (Just as cofc to The Citadel in basketball).

Not sure what your problem is. If you're right, WCU is going to get a couple extra conference wins in football. Maybe.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[The Cats]

If you're right, WCU is going to get a couple extra conference wins in football. Maybe..


We'd prefer to do it the old fashion way, and earn the wins. I'd rather be playing CCU with a victory in doubt, than playing VMI with a victory guaranteed.

[CID1990]

We'd prefer to do it the old fashion way, and earn the wins. I'd rather be playing CCU with a victory in doubt, than playing VMI with a victory guaranteed.

I like your optimism about VMI.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[catamount man]

WCU is living proof that being in close proximity to quality football does nothing for your own program. (Just as cofc to The Citadel in basketball).

Not sure what your problem is. If you're right, WCU is going to get a couple extra conference wins in football. Maybe.



Sent from the center of the universe.

Since the turn of the century, 13 games, El Cid has a "COMMANDING" 8-5 lead over WCU. Wouldn't exactly thump the chest too damn hard. Just sayin...

[CID1990]

Since the turn of the century, 13 games, El Cid has a "COMMANDING" 8-5 lead over WCU. Wouldn't exactly thump the chest too damn hard. Just sayin...

We haven't been setting the world on fire, that is true. But we ARE talking about one of the few schools we actually have an advantage over in that respect.

Hey if we beat ASU in Charleston this year can we have your jug?


Sent from the center of the universe.

[walliver]

I don't think things are really so bad for Western in the new alignment. The 'Cats haven't been competitive with ASU and GSU for years. The 2004 win over ASU notwithstanding.

I, for one, prefer CCU over VMI, but my opinion doesn't count.

I can understand that with the two large publics leaving, especially a geographic rival, there is apprehension in the 'Whee.

I don't think WCU would be any better off in the OVC, and worse off in the Big South.

The key for Western's success is to put a competitive team on the field, and your current problems will take care of themselves.

In the early 21st century, the three biggest SoCon games of the year were Furman-GSU, Furman-ASU, and of course ASU-GSU.
In the past 5 years or so, Wofford has taken Furman's place in the "big" games.
Wofford and Furman have little in common with ASU and GSU, but on-the-field competition has created rivalry-like games. There is no reason that a competitive WCU team couldn't generate the same interest.

[kdinva]

....playing VMI with a victory guaranteed.

we may see you in October, 2014. xcoffeex

[The Cats]

we may see you in October, 2014. xcoffeex


Oh Lord, I hope not. xsmhx

[rokamortis]

I read on the CAAZone that Mercer may be talking with the CAA. What are the chances that they join the CAA instead of the SoCon?

[PaladinFan]

I read on the CAAZone that Mercer may be talking with the CAA. What are the chances that they join the CAA instead of the SoCon?

My personal opinion? None.

I don't see the benefit to Mercer. With Georgia State leaving, the only "southern" CAA school is UNCW (which is still forever away from Macon, GA). I would imagine there has to be a big benefit to Mercer, or a strong push by the CAA to lock up other southern schools. Doesn't make a lot of sense to join a conference where your closest competition is probably a six hour drive.

The one caveat with Mercer is football. Everyone assumes with a staff with deep Furman ties, a beautiful new park, and discussions with the SoCon that Mercer will just step right into FCS football. Folks need to remember that Mercer kicked off this football restart with the idea of being non-scholarship. It is hard, in my opinion, to shift that horse to scholarship football before your program has even started.

Still, Mercer has committed to facilities. Their new field house would rival just about anything in the SoCon (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://football.mercer.edu/mu-football/images/football-returns_3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://football.mercer.edu/&h=494&w=920&sz=166&tbnid=iwrrKRndTa41UM:&tbnh=66&tbnw=122&zoom=1&usg=__SHQaLitPyKm0lT35CIHcK56jmwA=&docid=59mJOhrT1qSjlM&sa=X&ei=fjaKUaKPB4bf0QGB7IH4Dw&ved=0CEMQ9QEwAQ&dur=1214). Some would say you don't pony up that kind of cash to commit to a life of non-scholarship football. You don't go out and get a "name" coach to middle around for years.

[rokamortis]

My personal opinion? None.

I don't see the benefit to Mercer. With Georgia State leaving, the only "southern" CAA school is UNCW (which is still forever away from Macon, GA). I would imagine there has to be a big benefit to Mercer, or a strong push by the CAA to lock up other southern schools. Doesn't make a lot of sense to join a conference where your closest competition is probably a six hour drive.

The one caveat with Mercer is football. Everyone assumes with a staff with deep Furman ties, a beautiful new park, and discussions with the SoCon that Mercer will just step right into FCS football. Folks need to remember that Mercer kicked off this football restart with the idea of being non-scholarship. It is hard, in my opinion, to shift that horse to scholarship football before your program has even started.

Still, Mercer has committed to facilities. Their new field house would rival just about anything in the SoCon (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://football.mercer.edu/mu-football/images/football-returns_3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://football.mercer.edu/&h=494&w=920&sz=166&tbnid=iwrrKRndTa41UM:&tbnh=66&tbnw=122&zoom=1&usg=__SHQaLitPyKm0lT35CIHcK56jmwA=&docid=59mJOhrT1qSjlM&sa=X&ei=fjaKUaKPB4bf0QGB7IH4Dw&ved=0CEMQ9QEwAQ&dur=1214). Some would say you don't pony up that kind of cash to commit to a life of non-scholarship football. You don't go out and get a "name" coach to middle around for years.

You don't consider CofC a southern CAA school? They'll be in the CAA by the time Mercer would join. CofC is closer than UNCW. If Elon goes to the CAA then that becomes a rather nice southern grouping.

CAA would provide better basketball, a TV contract, and more revenue. And if they go with scholarship football, better football.

[Saint3333]

JMU is the key to the CAA, if they maintain them they will likely only poach one SoCon member, if JMU leaves it could get ugly and I predict the Big South or A-Sun will die at the hands of tickle down realignment via the CAA and then SoCon.

[CID1990]

JMU is the key to the CAA, if they maintain them they will likely only poach one SoCon member, if JMU leaves it could get ugly and I predict the Big South or A-Sun will die at the hands of tickle down realignment via the CAA and then SoCon.

I think that's accurate about JMU, but in many ways, announcing that you are looking to go up is the same as actually doing it- it kind of takes you out of the picture when other schools are thinking about joining the conference.

The one thing I'm fairly certain of is W&M will probably look for greener pastures if JMU leaves.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[fc97]

I think that's accurate about JMU, but in many ways, announcing that you are looking to go up is the same as actually doing it- it kind of takes you out of the picture when other schools are thinking about joining the conference.

The one thing I'm fairly certain of is W&M will probably look for greener pastures if JMU leaves.


Sent from the center of the universe.

that may depend on who comes in and whats in it for w&m. with a $1 million exit fee and losing access to the cash stores from the ncaa tournament, the lose could be big for w&m. i dont think they are adding charleston and others just to keep uncw, this is for w&m too

[CID1990]

that may depend on who comes in and whats in it for w&m. with a $1 million exit fee and losing access to the cash stores from the ncaa tournament, the lose could be big for w&m. i dont think they are adding charleston and others just to keep uncw, this is for w&m too

I don't have any doubt they added cofc to glue down some other schools, but at the end of the day the CAA is about to have a football problem (because half the conference won't be playing it) and a basketball only school might not be the glue the CAA needs. I think W&Ms future in the CAA is much more dependent on JMU, and what the CAA does to offset them leaving eventually.

[asumike83]

It is premature to panic but I do not think the SoCon has the luxury of waiting around a year to make formal invitations, with the exception of VMI who should remain available until the SoCon calls.

If the rumors of Mercer talking to the CAA are true, that is a threat that should be taken very seriously for several reasons. For one, the CAA and CAA football are separate entities and you'd think the likelihood of Mercer being able to join the CAA for all other sports while their football program gets on their feet in the Pioneer League would be much greater than in the SoCon. To my knowledge, they have not confirmed a commitment to scholarship football and they might not be ready to make that investment yet. It is a stronger basketball conference and a Southern group of UNCW, Charleston, Elon, JMU, W&M and Mercer would have to be attractive. If both Elon and Mercer head to the CAA, the SoCon would be in a tough spot.

ETSU seems much less likely to go anywhere else but if the SoCon loses more members/candidates, it's not out of the question that the movement could generate some interest in the OVC among either UTC, ETSU or Samford.

If Mercer/ETSU are primary targets, the SoCon should lock them up ASAP in my opinion. After that, they can afford to see if an unexpected candidate falls in their lap and if that doesn't happen, VMI is a phone call away.

[CID1990]

It is premature to panic but I do not think the SoCon has the luxury of waiting around a year to make formal invitations, with the exception of VMI who should remain available until the SoCon calls.

If the rumors of Mercer talking to the CAA are true, that is a threat that should be taken very seriously for several reasons. For one, the CAA and CAA football are separate entities and you'd think the likelihood of Mercer being able to join the CAA for all other sports while their football program gets on their feet in the Pioneer League would be much greater than in the SoCon. To my knowledge, they have not confirmed a commitment to scholarship football and they might not be ready to make that investment yet. It is a stronger basketball conference and a Southern group of UNCW, Charleston, Elon, JMU, W&M and Mercer would have to be attractive. If both Elon and Mercer head to the CAA, the SoCon would be in a tough spot.

ETSU seems much less likely to go anywhere else but if the SoCon loses more members/candidates, it's not out of the question that the movement could generate some interest in the OVC among either UTC, ETSU or Samford.

If Mercer/ETSU are primary targets, the SoCon should lock them up ASAP in my opinion. After that, they can afford to see if an unexpected candidate falls in their lap and if that doesn't happen, VMI is a phone call away.

I don't know. We are thinking that these schools behave like the larger schools that play mid-level FBS football. They have the budgets to make long distance relationships work. At this level, having a more compact geographical footprint is more of a consideration. The CAA does have cofc and UNCW but I don't think that is enough to entice Mercer, when in the SoCon they would never have to travel further than Lexington VA at worst. In the SoCon Mercer will never have to get on an airplane, and for a school with a startup football program that might well have to go scholarship in a few years that is an issue.

But all that said, I don't see any advantage to wasting time playing footsie with these schools. get them on board now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I brought this up on the other thread, but what about Jacksonville (been floated before) and FGCU (had the football study)?

[chattownmocs]

I think Chattanooga is in great shape to save some face for the SOCON. They have the best team returning and running the table and making a run at the national title will prove that the SOCON can still produce elite teams.

[Apphole]

I think Chattanooga is in great shape to save some face for the SOCON. They have the best team returning and running the table and making a run at the national title will prove that the SOCON can still produce elite teams.

At MOST, that highly unlikely scenario would only partially make up for the annual choke job UTC represents and will prove that only after the big boys were gone could Nooga become a competitor.

[CID1990]

I think Chattanooga is in great shape to save some face for the SOCON. They have the best team returning and running the table and making a run at the national title will prove that the SOCON can still produce elite teams.

UTC is not going to run the table this year, even if you don't count GSU and ASU.

[Jiggs]

UTC is not going to run the table this year, even if you don't count GSU and ASU.
You are correct, sir.

[asumike83]

UTC is not going to run the table this year, even if you don't count GSU and ASU.

Uh, where have you been? UTC has been the class of the SoCon for three years running now, unless you look at the W-L record.

[PaladinFan]

Uh, where have you been? UTC has been the class of the SoCon for three years running now, unless you look at the W-L record.

I was trying not to laugh when I heard "UTC" and "national title" in the same sentence.

[PaladinFan]

JMU is the key to the CAA, if they maintain them they will likely only poach one SoCon member, if JMU leaves it could get ugly and I predict the Big South or A-Sun will die at the hands of tickle down realignment via the CAA and then SoCon.

We don't agree on much, but I am of the opinion that there will be one mid-major/FCS conference that does not make it out of this alive.

I've said this all along, but I imagine this whole realignment thing will eventually come down to the CAA destroying the SoCon, or vice versa. I think that's sad, but it is what it is.

[PaladinFan]

You don't consider CofC a southern CAA school? They'll be in the CAA by the time Mercer would join. CofC is closer than UNCW. If Elon goes to the CAA then that becomes a rather nice southern grouping.

CAA would provide better basketball, a TV contract, and more revenue. And if they go with scholarship football, better football.

I just continue to disagree that SoCon football is going to suck 2014 and beyond. No, the remaining schools don't pack stadiums to the rafters, but they aren't bad programs. UTC and Samford are borderline playoff teams. Elon is down, but has been a playoff team. Furman has been a powerhouse for years before hitting this recent rough patch. There's not a team in the country that wants to see Wofford. The Citadel is as good as they've been in years.

No, there's no team that is going to waltz to a national title, but this isn't 2003. 10 years ago if GSU and App left, Furman would have been the only respectable program left in the conference. That's just not the case anymore.

[rokamortis]

We don't agree on much, but I am of the opinion that there will be one mid-major/FCS conference that does not make it out of this alive.

I've said this all along, but I imagine this whole realignment thing will eventually come down to the CAA destroying the SoCon, or vice versa. I think that's sad, but it is what it is.

The SoCon and Big South should just do a trade.

SoCon gets VMI, Gardner-Webb, Charleston Southern, and Presbyterian

Big South gets Western, Chattanooga, and UNCG.

[rokamortis]

I just continue to disagree that SoCon football is going to suck 2014 and beyond. No, the remaining schools don't pack stadiums to the rafters, but they aren't bad programs. UTC and Samford are borderline playoff teams. Elon is down, but has been a playoff team. Furman has been a powerhouse for years before hitting this recent rough patch. There's not a team in the country that wants to see Wofford.

No, there's no team that is going to waltz to a national title, but this isn't 2003. 10 years ago if GSU and App left, Furman would have been the only respectable program left in the conference. That's just not the case anymore.

I'm not saying and never said that SoCon football will suck - just that CAA football will be better overall.

[Apphole]

I'm not saying and never said that SoCon football will suck - just that CAA football will be better overall.

Hell, the BigSouth will be better after everything is said and done xlolx

[The Cats]

....but I am of the opinion that there will be one mid-major/FCS conference that does not make it out of this alive.

I've go to disagree.

Either or both the SoCon & CAA maybe severely battered, and broken when this ends, but both conferences will survive.

The CAA as a conference has to many $$$$ coming into their bank account to disband, they would find some new members from the northeast.

The Citadel along with VMI would take in PC, HP, and G-W in a second to keep the SoCon breathing if everyone else left. The Citadel's greatest desire is to be the "king of the hill" in the SoCon, even if they have to bring in DIIs to do it.

[The Cats]

The SoCon and Big South should just do a trade.

SoCon gets VMI, Gardner-Webb, Charleston Southern, and Presbyterian

Big South gets Western, Chattanooga, and UNCG.


Things haven't gotten that bad yet. However, ask again next week.

[CID1990]

The Citadel's greatest desire is to be the "king of the hill" in the SoCon, even if they have to bring in DIIs to do it.

What is it with people just making ***** up in these threads?

First Saint, now you.

[Saint3333]

We don't agree on much, but I am of the opinion that there will be one mid-major/FCS conference that does not make it out of this alive.

I've said this all along, but I imagine this whole realignment thing will eventually come down to the CAA destroying the SoCon, or vice versa. I think that's sad, but it is what it is.

you are wrong a lot ;-).

I don't think the SoCon goes away it will just be the Big South plus leftovers under the SoCon name.

[The Cats]

What is it with people just making ***** up in these threads?

First Saint, now you.

I just call 'em the way I see 'em. I try not to make stuff up.

So then, do you deny that the Citadel would leave the SoCon, if all the current privates left, if in fact, replacements from the Big South/DII could be brought in?

[CID1990]

I just call 'em the way I see 'em. I try not to make stuff up. So do you deny that the Citadel would leave the SoCon, even if all the current privates left, if in fact replacements from the Big South/DII could be brought in?

Then you aren't very perceptive. Saying that The Citadel wants to make the SoCon its own personal fiefdom is nothing more than hyperbole. I do not know what The Citadel would do in this fantasyland scenario of yours, and I don't waste time thinking on it. That is all.

[ASUMountaineer]

I think Chattanooga is in great shape to save some face for the SOCON. They have the best team returning and running the table and making a run at the national title will prove that the SOCON can still produce elite teams.

Try making the playoffs just once since I was 3.

[ASUMountaineer]

I've go to disagree.

Either or both the SoCon & CAA maybe severely battered, and broken when this ends, but both conferences will survive.

The CAA as a conference has to many $$$$ coming into their bank account to disband, they would find some new members from the northeast.

The Citadel along with VMI would take in PC, HP, and G-W in a second to keep the SoCon breathing if everyone else left. The Citadel's greatest desire is to be the "king of the hill" in the SoCon, even if they have to bring in DIIs to do it.

The CAA will survive, but the CAAFC may not. It's going to get interesting.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I just call 'em the way I see 'em. I try not to make stuff up.

So then, do you deny that the Citadel would leave the SoCon, if all the current privates left, if in fact, replacements from the Big South/DII could be brought in?

You seem to have a pretty lazy way of seeing things.

[CID1990]

You seem to have a pretty lazy way of seeing things.

"I regard him as a nonsense person."

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2013/05/07/i-regard-you-as-a-nonsense-person/

[Sandlapper Spike]

I brought this up on the other thread, but what about Jacksonville (been floated before) and FGCU (had the football study)?

FGCU is too far away and is not close to adding football, even if it does so eventually.

JU is a more realistic candidate, but it is still non-schollie football. Like Mercer, there would have to be a contingency to add scholarships.

[asumike83]

I don't know. We are thinking that these schools behave like the larger schools that play mid-level FBS football. They have the budgets to make long distance relationships work. At this level, having a more compact geographical footprint is more of a consideration. The CAA does have cofc and UNCW but I don't think that is enough to entice Mercer, when in the SoCon they would never have to travel further than Lexington VA at worst. In the SoCon Mercer will never have to get on an airplane, and for a school with a startup football program that might well have to go scholarship in a few years that is an issue.

But all that said, I don't see any advantage to wasting time playing footsie with these schools. get them on board now.

Valid points and if Mercer is 100% committed to scholarship football, I agree that they end up in the SoCon because of the travel. However, if they are not in a position to do that just yet, I think their other sports and academic profile would get them a strong look in the CAA if they are looking South for new members. Being in the CAA as opposed to A-Sun might be worth it even with added travel if it means they don't have to shell out the money for football scholarships.

Either way, I think they are a better all-around fit in the SoCon and the conference should lock them up. If they aren't ready for scholarship football, give them an invite for everything else now and bring in football a few years down the road.

[PaladinFan]

Valid points and if Mercer is 100% committed to scholarship football, I agree that they end up in the SoCon because of the travel. However, if they are not in a position to do that just yet, I think their other sports and academic profile would get them a strong look in the CAA if they are looking South for new members. Being in the CAA as opposed to A-Sun might be worth it even with added travel if it means they don't have to shell out the money for football scholarships.

Either way, I think they are a better all-around fit in the SoCon and the conference should lock them up. If they aren't ready for scholarship football, give them an invite for everything else now and bring in football a few years down the road.

I guess. You'd just have to give me a really sweet deal for me to be excited about driving over an hour to Atlanta to battle HartsfieldJackson anytime I wanted to play a basketball game (or a tennis match, baseball game, etc.). Yes, Charleston is closer, but it's not that close. Still a four hour drive. In the SoCon Mercer would be within a four hour drive of pretty much university but Elon.

[The Cats]

In the SoCon Mercer would be within a four hour drive of pretty much university but Elon.

That too, will probably be fixed shortly.

[chattownmocs]

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/may/09/departures-signal-changes-for-the-league-that-is/?sports

UTC interim chancellor pushing for UNC-Asheville to replace Davidson. This shows where this idiots priorities are. This idiot didn't throw any suggestions out there for football but now he wants to way in on Asheville? You have got to be kidding. This is a run-the-clock-out on your tenure situation Mr. INTERIM chancellor. STFU.

[ASUMountaineer]

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/may/09/departures-signal-changes-for-the-league-that-is/?sports

UTC interim chancellor pushing for UNC-Asheville to replace Davidson. This shows where this idiots priorities are. This idiot didn't throw any suggestions out there for football but now he wants to way in on Asheville? You have got to be kidding. This is a run-the-clock-out on your tenure situation Mr. INTERIM chancellor. STFU.

Man, UTC's leadership is just like their football team. Neither can get out of their own way. Par for the course, I suppose.

[rokamortis]

If Mercer goes to the CAA as some are speculating, the SoCon could go after Savannah State. It is in Georgia and in a bigger market than Macon.

[CID1990]

If Mercer goes to the CAA as some are speculating, the SoCon could go after Savannah State. It is in Georgia and in a bigger market than Macon.

I seriously doubt Sav St will be on the menu under any circumstances.

[Apphole]

I seriously doubt Sav St will be on the menu under any circumstances.

You better hope not. Good God. Savannah State? All snark aside that would be rock bottom for this conference.

[CID1990]

You better hope not. Good God. Savannah State? All snark aside that would be rock bottom for this conference.

It hardly merits comment.

[asumike83]

If the SoCon really wants in Georgia and Mercer doesn't work out, I'd have to assume Kennesaw State is #2 on the list.

[kdinva]

If Mercer goes to the CAA as some are speculating, the SoCon could go after Savannah State. .

no, savannah St. will take our place in the Big South, so they'll keep the auto-bid..

[rokamortis]

no, savannah St. will take our place in the Big South, so they'll keep the auto-bid..

Still an improvement.

[The Cats]

I think it's time for the SoCon to close its doors, if they have to resort to bringing in UNC-A.

Like VMI, it's a good school, but has no business in the SoCon based on their athletic program. Yes they've had a decent basketball team the last few years, but they were playing in the Big South for crying out loud. Their entire athletic budget is around 4 million - no way they could compete in the SoCon.

[CID1990]

I think it's time for the SoCon to close its doors, if they have to resort to bringing in UNC-A.

Like VMI, it's a good school, but has no business in the SoCon based on their athletic program. Yes they've had a decent basketball team the last few years, but they were playing in the Big South for crying out loud. Their entire athletic budget is around 4 million - no way they could compete in the SoCon.

There is nothing similar between the athletic programs of UNC-A and VMI. There you go again.

[CID1990]

Still an improvement.

Is this the same guy who get butthurt over people hating on CCU?

Nobody here has denigrated CCU's athletic programs.

[rokamortis]

Is this the same guy who get butthurt over people hating on CCU?

Nobody here has denigrated CCU's athletic programs.

I've never been 'butt-hurt' - but I hear it happens a lot at your school.

I'm not putting down VMI.

Savannah State is competitive in multiple sports in the MEAC now - won the Basketball and Softball conference championships and just built a new football stadium. They went 1-10 in football in 2012 but are a program on the rise.

[The Cats]

There is nothing similar between the athletic programs of UNC-A and VMI. There you go again.

Other than the fact that UNC-A does not sponsor football, tell me how the two programs are dissimilar

UNCA has a much better basketball team than VMI and VMI has a better baseball team, so that's a draw. The rest of both programs aren't worth talking about. That is how they are similar.

[kdinva]

Still an improvement.

xlolx y'all wish........CCU and Sav St. are equal in academics........

.....when will CCU FB do a home and home with ElCid? They have room on their future schedules......they are tired of beating up on Chuck South.

[kdinva]

UNCA has a much better basketball team than VMI

a slightly better hoops program........but we'll see now that Coach Biedenbach has left.

[kdinva]

Savannah State is.......a program on the rise.

with their 7th head coach in the past, what, nine years? xwhistlex