The Truth Behind UNCWs Lack of Football

[superman7515]

http://www.theseahawk.org/sports/the-truth-behind-uncw-s-lack-of-a-football-program-1.3038070


It seems that the University of North Carolina Wilmington has everything a college student could ask for: the beach, great academic programs such as nursing, film studies, creative writing, education, business, and it has a Costco nearby.

However, UNCW is missing something that 625 other universities have: a football team. Football is one of America’s greatest sports. The Super Bowl, football’s biggest game, holds the record as the most watched event in world history.

So why is UNCW missing this? It’s all about the dollar signs.

Joe Browning has been UNCW’s Senior Associate Athletic Director for 27 years. He deals with communications and oversees the budget for the athletic department. He explains that there are many reasons why UNCW doesn’t have a football team, but the primary one is purely finances.

“If you survey everyone in our department, which is 75 employees, all of us would love to have football here,” Browning said. “It’s the most popular sport in America, which makes us feel worse about not having it at this school. To start up a football team the right way, it would probably cost about $50 million. There are a lot of things that people don’t see within the football costs.”

In order to break down the cost to create a football program, the university would have to deal with building a new stadium, practice facilities, supplying equipment, hiring a coaching staff and trainers. So the university will have to deal with all of those salaries and benefits. Equipment alone would cost $250 to $300 per person. There are also the travel expenses if the team wants to go play football at other stadiums during the season. Then there are scholarships. If the school comes in at the FCS level (Division 1AA), that’s supplying 63 scholarships to student athletes.

“Our main goal right now for the athletic department is to fully fund all of our sports here at UNCW,” Browning said. “Right now we can only fully fund men’s and women’s basketball. We would like to fully fund all of our sports before we can add in football.”

UNCW has 19 sports programs, but only three of them are fully funded (the third is baseball). In the CAA, UNCW has the lowest percentage of fully funded teams (16 percent) behind the University of Delaware and 50 percent of their sports programs are fully funded. UNCW also has the lowest athletic budget in the CAA at $10.5 million a year. The next lowest athletic budget in the CAA is Old Dominion University with an estimated $27 million per year and they have a football team. Another small school that just recently added a football team is UNC-Charlotte, but Browning brings up a point that also helps college programs acquire football teams.

1) Doesn't sound like football will be coming to UNCW any time soon, despite the admitted support of faculty.
2) University of Delaware only fully funds 50% of their sports.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The point that Browning brings up will just add more costs to UNCW’s football program. Better coaches want more money and better athletes want more scholarships. So with all of this thrown into the mix, Jimmy Bass estimates that in order to make a fully funded, competitive football program, it would take an initial investment of $300 million. That number is pretty far from UNCW’s financial goals, but Browning is optimistic that UNCW students will get what they want some time in the future.

“I think eventually we will have a football team, maybe not in my lifetime,” Browning said. “I think it’s just a financial hump that this school has got to get over. If there’s enough support out there for it and people want to pay for it, it can get done.”

Sounds like a shout-out to wealthy alumni to me. They're probably not the first school to look at Old Dominion and think, "Why not us, too"?

[DFW HOYA]

I tire of the "it takes $50 million to start a program" argument. Is Mercer spending $50 million on football? How about Houston Baptist or Incarnate Word?

And as for this quote, "So with all of this thrown into the mix, Jimmy Bass estimates that in order to make a fully funded, competitive football program, it would take an initial investment of $300 million," show me any Div. I program that has spent this to start a football team.

Entire universities have been started on less.

[chargeradio]

If they want to compete with ECU, $50 MM should build a nice stadium and get an FBS program started. If they want to compete with Towson or William & Mary, $10 MM should be plenty and that's still building a stadium from scratch.

[danefan]

I tire of the "it takes $50 million to start a program" argument. Is Mercer spending $50 million on football? How about Houston Baptist or Incarnate Word?

And as for this quote, "So with all of this thrown into the mix, Jimmy Bass estimates that in order to make a fully funded, competitive football program, it would take an initial investment of $300 million," show me any Div. I program that has spent this to start a football team.

Entire universities have been started on less.

Agreed.

Let's throw out some huge numbers to make people go away!

[danefan]

If they want to compete with ECU, $50 MM should build a nice stadium and get an FBS program started. If they want to compete with Towson or William & Mary, $10 MM should be plenty and that's still building a stadium from scratch.

You need more than $10m. Operating budget alone to compete with the top CAA teams will be $4-6m per year.

[CID1990]

They could go the CSU route and just throw up a couple bleachers.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[fc97]

mercer is documented as spending close to $30 million so far for a non-scholarship program. the stadium alone was $14 to $20 million depending on articles. elon's stadium was $24 million. going the csu throw up some bleachers tactic sucks. look at how much of a laughing stock they are cause of it.

houston baptist and incarnate word are in texas and are sort of a special case. sort of like started a college basketball team in north carolina or indiana. it'll work for the sheer popularity of the sport in the state.

and, starting it for a private school is a little different than for a public school due to a private school can do what they want without risk of public blacklash.

[SpeedkingATL]

This guy should be in congress since the US Government spends about 3 times what any program should actually cost. He would fit in nicely.

[walliver]

They already have a 3000 seat stadium.
http://www.uncwsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=19800&ATCLID=1252731
They could easily add a few more bleachers to get to 6000, and then expand as needed.

The real issue is whether they want to compete with existing CAA programs which would be very expensive, or play football at the PFL level which would be much cheaper (playing Davidson, Mercer, and Jacksonville would probably generate as much local interest as playing Rhode Island, New Hampshire and Stony Brook)

[CID1990]

mercer is documented as spending close to $30 million so far for a non-scholarship program. the stadium alone was $14 to $20 million depending on articles. elon's stadium was $24 million. going the csu throw up some bleachers tactic sucks. look at how much of a laughing stock they are cause of it.

houston baptist and incarnate word are in texas and are sort of a special case. sort of like started a college basketball team in north carolina or indiana. it'll work for the sheer popularity of the sport in the state.

and, starting it for a private school is a little different than for a public school due to a private school can do what they want without risk of public blacklash.

All I'm saying is that if you really want football you don't have to break the bank on a stadium. CSU plays at the same level the rest of us do, only with a sucky excuse for a stadium.

[danefan]

All I'm saying is that if you really want football you don't have to break the bank on a stadium. CSU plays at the same level the rest of us do, only with a sucky excuse for a stadium.


I'm not sure UNCW wants that type of football.

They want Old Dominion football.

[PAllen]

They already have a 3000 seat stadium.
http://www.uncwsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=19800&ATCLID=1252731
They could easily add a few more bleachers to get to 6000, and then expand as needed.

The real issue is whether they want to compete with existing CAA programs which would be very expensive, or play football at the PFL level which would be much cheaper (playing Davidson, Mercer, and Jacksonville would probably generate as much local interest as playing Rhode Island, New Hampshire and Stony Brook)

They could do it if they wanted to. They just clearly don't. I'm sure if someone came to him with a check for $100M to start the program, he would come up with a reason why it would take $150M. I love how he says that they would need to fund 63 scholarships to play at the FCS level, and yet he only fully funds 15% of his programs. They have facilities that are adequate for a startup, the real question is what is the football operating budget for Davidson, Jacksonville, or Georgetown?

[ccd494]

They already have a 3000 seat stadium.
http://www.uncwsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=19800&ATCLID=1252731
They could easily add a few more bleachers to get to 6000, and then expand as needed.

The real issue is whether they want to compete with existing CAA programs which would be very expensive, or play football at the PFL level which would be much cheaper (playing Davidson, Mercer, and Jacksonville would probably generate as much local interest as playing Rhode Island, New Hampshire and Stony Brook)

What did the soccer players do to deserve having a start up football program ruin their turf?

[lionsrking2]

I tire of the "it takes $50 million to start a program" argument. Is Mercer spending $50 million on football? How about Houston Baptist or Incarnate Word?

And as for this quote, "So with all of this thrown into the mix, Jimmy Bass estimates that in order to make a fully funded, competitive football program, it would take an initial investment of $300 million," show me any Div. I program that has spent this to start a football team.

Entire universities have been started on less.

We raised 5 million to restart our program in 2002 (6.5 million in today's dollars) after an 18 year hiatus. Granted, we already had a stadium and field house in place (we did install turf for around 500K as well as locker room and office renovations), but it still wouldn't have taken anywhere near 50 million even if we would have had to build a stadium from scratch. I realize cost of doing business and costs of scholarships varies around the country, but you should be able to get an FCS program up and running, just about anywhere in the country, for much less.

[ETSUfan1]

This was the way our old president and AD thought too. Lets fully fund everything!!!!1one. The problem is, nobody outside of parents and maybe a dozen locals care about the olympic sports. There is 0 reason to fund them fully because those sports will get you nowhere in the current landscape of DI athletics. Our new president realized that, and that's why we are bringing back football.

[walliver]

All I'm saying is that if you really want football you don't have to break the bank on a stadium. CSU plays at the same level the rest of us do, only with a sucky excuse for a stadium.

And a team to match.

[cmaxwellgsu]

They could do it if they wanted to. They just clearly don't. I'm sure if someone came to him with a check for $100M to start the program, he would come up with a reason why it would take $150M. I love how he says that they would need to fund 63 scholarships to play at the FCS level, and yet he only fully funds 15% of his programs. They have facilities that are adequate for a startup, the real question is what is the football operating budget for Davidson, Jacksonville, or Georgetown?

Maybe they could, but they have a very long way to go. That amount of fundraising just won't cut it. I can definitely see his point.

[fc97]

This was the way our old president and AD thought too. Lets fully fund everything!!!!1one. The problem is, nobody outside of parents and maybe a dozen locals care about the olympic sports. There is 0 reason to fund them fully because those sports will get you nowhere in the current landscape of DI athletics. Our new president realized that, and that's why we are bringing back football.

i disagree with this. there are some olympic sports like lacrosse, soccer and baseball that do get a fair amount if interest in some locations especially when the school or players do work with the local little leagues and school teams

[DFW HOYA]

They could do it if they wanted to. They just clearly don't. I'm sure if someone came to him with a check for $100M to start the program, he would come up with a reason why it would take $150M. I love how he says that they would need to fund 63 scholarships to play at the FCS level, and yet he only fully funds 15% of his programs. They have facilities that are adequate for a startup, the real question is what is the football operating budget for Davidson, Jacksonville, or Georgetown?

An operating budget refers to gameday costs and expenses. The operating expenses for these schools are:

Jacksonville: $456,763
Georgetown: $307,298
Davidson: $269,786

[dgtw]

What is meant by "fully funded"?

[UAalum72]

What is meant by "fully funded"?Usually means the school awards the maximum number of scholarships or equivalencies allowed by the NCAA (63 for football, 12.6 for men's lacrosse, etc.); may also include hiring the maximum number of coaches allowed, adequate recruiting budgets, and other such spending.

[wb247]

Usually means the school awards the maximum number of scholarships or equivalencies allowed by the NCAA (63 for football, 12.6 for men's lacrosse, etc.); may also include hiring the maximum number of coaches allowed, adequate recruiting budgets, and other such spending.

It also implies that all of the funding comes from boosters, the athletic budget, or student fees. I'd argue that a sport isn't fully funded if any of the budget is supplemented by the general fund and athletic scholarships take away from academic scholarships.

[WileECoyote06]

Good. We don't need anymore football playing colleges in North Carolina anyway.

BTW, 300 million is a ridiculous number. That's larger than their state appropriations. On top of that, UNC-W just increased their athletic fees a few months ago.

[UAalum72]

It also implies that all of the funding comes from boosters, the athletic budget, or student fees. I'd argue that a sport isn't fully funded if any of the budget is supplemented by the general fund and athletic scholarships take away from academic scholarships.
You can argue that, but I don't think many other people would. For purposes of discussion on this board, 'fully funded' generally refers to how much you're spending on athletics, not how you get the money (general fund is still a 'fund', and academic spending is irrelevant to athletic spending).

[superman7515]

Maybe they can't afford it after all, looks like they are dropping to the bare minimum to remain D1...

UNCW Athletic Department Review - PDF (http://www.uncw.edu/iarc/documents/UNCWIARC_Recommendations.pdf)

"Reduce the number of sports in the current portfolio from 19 to 14 beginning with the 2013-14 season. The sports that we recommend for elimination are:"
a. Men’s Swimming & Diving
b. Women’s Swimming & Diving
c. Men’s Cross Country
d. Men’s Indoor Track
e. Softball

[walliver]

Maybe they can't afford it after all, looks like they are dropping to the bare minimum to remain D1...

UNCW Athletic Department Review - PDF (http://www.uncw.edu/iarc/documents/UNCWIARC_Recommendations.pdf)

"Reduce the number of sports in the current portfolio from 19 to 14 beginning with the 2013-14 season. The sports that we recommend for elimination are:"
a. Men’s Swimming & Diving
b. Women’s Swimming & Diving
c. Men’s Cross Country
d. Men’s Indoor Track
e. Softball

How expensive is men's cross country? It's just a bunch of guys running around.

[ccd494]

How expensive is men's cross country? It's just a bunch of guys running around.

Per the attached spreadsheet in that review, $12,809 as separate costs from track and field, but "recurring t&f/cc costs" were $187,590 including 4.33 scholarships.

[aceinthehole]

Lots of bad news for UNCW fans in that report:



• In comparison to UNCW’s CAA peers, we are:

1. Last in total revenues;
2. Last in total athletic expenses;
3. Last in average total expenses per sport;
4. Last in total expenses per participant;
5. Last in Men’s total expenses per sport;
6. Last in Women’s total expenses per sport;
7. Next to last in Men’s total expenses per participant;
8. Last in Women’s total expenses per participant;
9. Last in Men’s operating expenses per sport;
10. Last in Women’s operating expenses per sport;
11. Last in Men’s sports operating expenses per participant;
12. Last in Women’s sports operating expenses per participant.


• UNCW’s current financial challenges include:


1. The Department of Athletics’ reserve fund has experienced an 82% decrease since 2009.
2. The current Department of Athletics reserve is approximately $2,000,000 short of university’s minimum 6-month operating balance for programs sponsored by student fees.
3. Since 2009, personnel costs represent an increase from 41% to 45% of total expenses in operating costs.
4. Based on current giving projections, the UNCW Seahawk Club donations are anticipated to be between $400,000 and $500,000 short of the projected goal of $ 1,047,000.
5. UNCW is projecting a need to cover a $600,000 shortfall in the Department of Athletics budget for the 2012-13 fiscal year.
6. In addition to the projected shortfall, UNCW provided $205,000 in additional support for fiscal year 2013, as part of a 4-year plan to offset the loss of student-athlete waivers for out-of-state scholarships.

[walliver]

Lots of bad news for UNCW fans in that report:

With that kind of success, they should probably look at D2 or D3 (they won't, but they should).

[CID1990]

With that kind of success, they should probably look at D2 or D3 (they won't, but they should).

Anyone in the SoCon leadership who could possibly be looking at UNC-A would be well advised to take a good look at this.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[rokamortis]

Anyone in the SoCon leadership who could possibly be looking at UNC-A would be well advised to take a good look at this.


Sent from the center of the universe.

Not sure why the SoCon would want to add a school seemingly in such dire straits.

UNCW should look at the Big South. Seriously. With the kind of financial situation they are in and lack of competitiveness they are facing in the CAA - the Big South would provide easy travel, great baseball, and a good opportunity to get the AQ in basketball.

I know they won't because of ego - but they should really consider it. The SoCon offers similar advantages but would be a little more travel.

Edit: I now realize I may have misread your post. If you are saying that UNCA could be a similar institution and have financial woes and not a good fit for the SoCon ... I agree.

[CID1990]

Edit: I now realize I may have misread your post. If you are saying that UNCA could be a similar institution and have financial woes and not a good fit for the SoCon ... I agree.

Yep, that is what I meant. UNC-A is in even worse shape than UNC-W. I'm not sure why they even became a SoCon rumor.

IMO, the SoCon needs to stay away from non-football schools. With the possible addition of Mercer, ETSU and VMI, I think the conference now will just need to be mindful of what Elon is up to, and be prepared to replace them with either Kennesaw State, Campbell or CCU. I would lean towards CCU in that case since the conference is already adding two startups. If they have to add one more my vote would be with an established football program. My gut tells me that they will look at KSU first.

[The Cats]

IMO, the SoCon needs to stay away from non-football schools....

I knew with all your posts, we'd finally agree on something.

[Laker]

I just read that North Carolina has 18 D1 schools. Living in a state that has one (not enough IMO) that seems like way too many. Shouldn't some of those be in D2 or even D3? Just wondering.

[superman7515]

I just read that North Carolina has 18 D1 schools. Living in a state that has one (not enough IMO) that seems like way too many. Shouldn't some of those be in D2 or even D3? Just wondering.

There are 20 D2 schools in North Carolina, 7 D3 schools, and a couple of NAIA schools as well. Moving to D2 would be worse than D1 simply because there's even more in-state competition there. If a school drops, they need to move way back, which is very hard to sell.

[MplsBison]

North Carolina must be a very learned state.

[CID1990]

I knew with all your posts, we'd finally agree on something.

I have always been very vocal in my disagreement with having conference members who do not participate in football. Thats' the keystone sport for consideration for membership in the conference, IMO.

[kdinva]

I have always been very vocal in my disagreement with having conference members who do not participate in football. Thats' the keystone sport for consideration for membership in the conference, IMO.

So, perhaps........UNC-W to the A-Sun in 3-4 years, maybe?

[The Cats]

So, perhaps........UNC-W to the A-Sun in 3-4 years, maybe?

IMO, the only thing that would lead UNC-W to the A-Sun would be if they were kicked out of the CAA, and the SoCon rejected them.

They look down on both the the SoCon & A-Sun (as well as the BS) as inferior, in basketball, their major sport, it would be a move down.

[MplsBison]

IMO, the only thing that would lead UNC-W to the A-Sun would be if they were kicked out of the CAA, and the SoCon rejected them.

They look down on both the the SoCon & A-Sun (as well as the BS) as inferior, in basketball, their major sport, it would be a move down.

Yeah but those are all 1-bid leagues now.

[T-Dog]

I just read that North Carolina has 18 D1 schools. Living in a state that has one (not enough IMO) that seems like way too many. Shouldn't some of those be in D2 or even D3? Just wondering.

Off the top of my head.

UNC-Chapel Hill
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest
ECU
UNC-Charlotte
UNC-Asheville
Gardner-Webb
Campbell
High Point
Appalachian State
Western Carolina
UNC-Greensboro
UNC-Wilmington
Davidson
Elon
NC Central
NC A&T

[MplsBison]

There's nothing wrong with having a lot of excellent 4-year universities in the state. But why do so many need to have Division I athletics programs??

[cmaxwellgsu]

There's nothing wrong with having a lot of excellent 4-year universities in the state. But why do so many need to have Division I athletics programs??

If the support is there, why not? North Carolina is the only basketball first school in the South, and it's in pretty good shape economically. A good number of them don't have football, and basketball is very cheap in comparison. The majority of them seems to be in decent shape.

[MplsBison]

I guess I should've clarified only talking about the public schools. Doesn't seem like 11 DI schools are needed in a state with 10 million people (although two of them market themselves only to black students).

But...I suppose if the students agree to pay for it, so be it.

[appstate38]

UNCW's softball generated around 15,000 dollars last year but spent nearly 350,000 dollars in expenses.... Seems something is out of whack there. They dont have enough revenue sports to help out the non-revenue sports. Basketball is king there but the team has been awful the last few years and they are missing that tournament check they had been getting.