Lehigh going I-A?

[LUHawker]

Based on Otto Fad's article about the impending death of I-AA, I thought it would be interesting to think about which schools would and could move to I-A as opposed to something more like Div II, if the NCAA rules force this paradigm shift in Division I football. Keep in mind, that the "would" part of this questions goes more towards institutional philosophyand support for football while the "could" part goes towards the ability to move in terms of $$, attendance and facilities.

Starting with the Patriot League, only Lehigh has the wherewithal to pull this off and that is no gimme. LU has the institutional support, the facilities and is close enough in attendance to make a go of it. The big question is, would they from a philosophical point of view, particularly if Lafayette doesn't go? I still say yes, but it would be a very challenging road.

Colgate would want to go, but can't because I believe that facilities and the lack of attendance in rural upstate NY would be its Achilles heal in the process.

Lafayette both could not and would not go. Lacks facilities, attendance and institutional support (hell, they barely escaped being exiled to DIII)

Bucknell - Ditto Colgate

Fordham is the only other PL school with the inkling of a shot based on its large alumni base and NYC location. Facilities and institutional support are its biggest hurdles.

Holy Cross - Tough call, but ultimately no go. Its got the right stadium capacity and a storied history, but current institutional support and $$ probably hold it back.

Georgetown - No on both the would and could. Inadequate facilities, lacks institutional and fan support and oh, by the way, it really is a BB school.

Would love to read comments on what you think other conference members would do, but real quick I think the CAA goes I-A, but possibly sans URI (although they might try for a little while), SoCon, w/o Wofford, CCU, Elon; Big Sky - all go; Ivy (who the hell knows). The rest of the conferences, I'll wait to here from those better in the know.

[yomama]

"Impending death of I-AA"? Not while there's a Division II.

That's where Lehigh came from, after all.

[LUHawker]

"Impending death of I-AA"? Not while there's a Division II.

That's where Lehigh came from, after all.

Thanks, that was extremely helpful.

[Fordham]

Making the leap with you that it has to be one or the other, I tend to pretty much agree with your call about the PL. Lehigh would be clear favorite to make the move, imo.

Although there are a few vocal alums at Fordham hoping for us to make the move already (nowhere near a majority or even large minority), I think you're being overly generous with our program. Just my opinion, but NYC is a pro sports town and the combination of extremely poor facilities and being located in what might be the ultimate anti-college football town makes this both unlikely and, imo, unwise for Fordham.

In the eminent words of Rodney Dangerfield to Ted Knight, however, I will say "It looks good on you, though."

[rokamortis]

SoCon, w/o Wofford, CCU, Elon;

Coastal is in the Big South - did you mean The Citadel?

[justballn21]

hey wheres the link to this article?

[Hansel]

NDSU has mentioned IA longterm

see this TV clip

http://www.in-forum.com/av/index.cfm?id=3034&type=tvscript

(sorry Ralph)

[Marcus Garvey]

If I-AA were to "die," then things would go back to where they were before the sub-classification came to be. The "lower" tier D-I teams would pretty much be on a par with the upper tier DII teams...
For instance, in '77, Colgate, Holy Cross, Richmond and Wiliam&Mary were all D-I, while Lehigh, UMass, Delaware and Youngstown St. were D-II. All of those schools were pretty much on the same level of competition.

[txstatebobcat]

Here in the Southland:

McNeese St- Could go anytime they wanted to. Although I'm not sure if they have 16 sports. Either way they are by far and away the easiest choice if they had the desire.

Northwestern St- Another school that could go I-A fairly easily, at least under the current rules. Again I'm not sure if they need to add sports or not.

Texas State- if we were to string a few winning seasons together we would probably be Sunbelt bound. Everything is in place as far as sports and 200 required scholarships. The administration has repeatedly said that they are committed to I-AA, however I personally think that this is just lip service until a I-A opportunity comes along. We averaged over 10,000 last year so I don't see any problem getting the 15,000 mark.

Sam Houston St- again the rules make it so easy that I doubt Sam Houston would have much trouble getting to I-A if they wanted it. Although their attendance leaves something to be desired especially with the type of season they had last year.

Stephen F Austin- They are a hard school to figure out. They are actually in the upper tier of the SLC as far as financial and institutional backing, but their attendance is horrific for the type of program that they have. They are in the middle of nowhere and should be the only show in town, yet they struggle to get 5-6,000 people to show to their games.

Southeast Louisiana- Their stadium is way to small. Although they sell out in a regular basis. Truthfully its to soon to tell if they could make the transition to I-A. Also I kind of doubt that they would want to.

Nicholls State- This is the one school in the Southland that I would say that has absolutely no chance to go to I-A. They don't have the money, facilities or institutional support.

[Sly Fox]

I think Liberty & Coastal Carolina would most certainly go I-A. VMI would be on the fence while Gardner-Webb & Charleston Southern probably couldn't handle it.

[JMU Duke Dog]

If the CAA doesn't go Division I entirely if I-AA would no longer be a classification then...

1.) I believe these schools would definitely join the new Division I classification:

Delaware
JMU
Massachusetts
Villanova

2.) I believe these schools would probably join the new Division I classification

Hofstra
Maine
Northeastern
William & Mary

3.) Schools on the border in my opinion:

New Hampshire (probably need stadium improvements)
Rhode Island (what direction is this program going?)
Richmond (what will the administration prefer?)
Towson

[Sly Fox]

This is strictly a hypothetical based on conditions not in place, Ralph. But considering some of the recent developments ... Oh yeah, it's also summer.

[DFW HOYA]

Starting with the Patriot League, only Lehigh has the wherewithal to pull this off and that is no gimme. LU has the institutional support, the facilities and is close enough in attendance to make a go of it. The big question is, would they from a philosophical point of view, particularly if Lafayette doesn't go? I still say yes, but it would be a very challenging road.

I-A membership requires a stadium of 30,000 and minimum attendance of 15K a year. Lehigh is not there for either, and certainly Lafayette isn't either.


Holy Cross - Tough call, but ultimately no go. Its got the right stadium capacity and a storied history, but current institutional support and $$ probably hold it back.

Money doesn't hold it back, administrative philosophy does. To some on Mt. St. James, HC would be better off associating with Williams and Wesleyan than Georgetown and BC.


Georgetown - No on both the would and could. Inadequate facilities, lacks institutional and fan support and oh, by the way, it really is a BB school.

You missed it on three of the four points. Its facilities, while improving as we speak, are not the issue (a I-A Georgetown team would play at RFK or Fedex Field, anyway). University support is strong; otherwise, it would have already gone the way of football at Jesuit schools like Marquette, Xavier, Detroit, Creighton, etc. Fan support is a by-product of the current facilities, nothing more or less. And it's not a basketball school, but maybe it's becoming a lacrosse school (as judged by recent NCAA appearances between the sports)

No, Georgetown's issue with I-A is institutional. At $42,500 a year for a full ride, identifying, admitting, and graduating 85 scholarship players is an financial and admissions commitment that the school is not going to make right now. Outside of Stanford, there aren't any I-A programs with kids at a PL-level SAT/GPA plateau that a school like Georgetown, Colgate, etc. would demand of its team. (One of the reasons I-AA football enjoys support at Georgetown is that the players hold their own in the classroom.)

Cost-wise, the prospect of losing millions in a sport when the school remains in trouble financially makes this moot anyway.

But the clear fact is that I-AA is not going away and none of these schools are going I-A.

[Dane96]

. Outside of Stanford, there aren't any I-A programs with kids at a PL-level SAT/GPA plateau that a school like Georgetown, Colgate, etc. would demand of its team. (One of the reasons I-AA football enjoys support at Georgetown is that the players hold their own in the classroom.) .


Wow, must have overlooked Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and Duke.

[Sly Fox]

Outside of Stanford, there aren't any I-A programs with kids at a PL-level SAT/GPA plateau that a school like Georgetown, Colgate, etc. would demand of its team.

What about Rice? Granted, the Owls are essentially considered a I-AA competing as a I-A much of the time.

[ChickenMan]

Duke...

[colgate13]

I-AA ain't going anywhere, but you'll see hell freeze over before Colgate plays football anywhere other than Division I... unless (since we're talking hypotheticals) the Ivy's broke away from NCAA football entirely and created their own league. They would/should then invite the Patriots along for a second division.

As late as 1977, Colgate was successful in Division I (although not big time). If not for a loss to Delaware ( :bang: :bang: :bang: :asswhip: :splat: ) Colgate goes to the Peach Bowl. If push came to shove Colgate would go back on the road like the old days for 7 or 8 away games.

[89Hen]

As late as 1977, Colgate was successful... If not for a loss to Delaware
That recurring theme. :p

[LUHawker]

I-A membership requires a stadium of 30,000 and minimum attendance of 15K a year. Lehigh is not there for either, and certainly Lafayette isn't either.


Who said you had to have a 30k stadium? That issue aside, Lehigh could easily get to that stadium capacity as the stadium was designed to allow for easy capacity expansion. As for the 15k attendance, I think we all know that is not a real hurdle, and besides, if LU gets a couple of big names in there occassionally, you would see that level cleared.


You missed it on three of the four points. Its facilities, while improving as we speak, are not the issue (a I-A Georgetown team would play at RFK or Fedex Field, anyway). University support is strong; otherwise, it would have already gone the way of football at Jesuit schools like Marquette, Xavier, Detroit, Creighton, etc. Fan support is a by-product of the current facilities, nothing more or less. And it's not a basketball school, but maybe it's becoming a lacrosse school (as judged by recent NCAA appearances between the sports)

No, Georgetown's issue with I-A is institutional. At $42,500 a year for a full ride, identifying, admitting, and graduating 85 scholarship players is an financial and admissions commitment that the school is not going to make right now. Outside of Stanford, there aren't any I-A programs with kids at a PL-level SAT/GPA plateau that a school like Georgetown, Colgate, etc. would demand of its team. (One of the reasons I-AA football enjoys support at Georgetown is that the players hold their own in the classroom.)

Cost-wise, the prospect of losing millions in a sport when the school remains in trouble financially makes this moot anyway.

But the clear fact is that I-AA is not going away and none of these schools are going I-A.

I think you just confirmed for me my point that GU would not go I-A. It does not have the $$ or the support.

[colgate13]

That recurring theme. :p
I put that there soley for your benefit! :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: xazzx xazzx xsmoochx

[HensRock]

Editted:


As late as 1977, Colgate was successful in Division I (although not big time). If not for a loss to [Division II] Delaware, Colgate goes to the Peach Bowl.

:D

[rufus]

I-A membership requires a stadium of 30,000 and minimum attendance of 15K a year. Lehigh is not there for either, and certainly Lafayette isn't either.

I-A does not require a 30,000 seat stadium. If it did, many MAC and Sun Belt schools would have been kicked out long ago. I believe there is some kind of attendance waiver that applies to conferences, in which 2/3 of the teams play in 30,000+ seat stadiums. I honestly don't know the details though.

You also have to keep in mind that "minimum attendance" is now defined as paid attendance. Policy also stipulates that to be counted toward paid tickets sales, a ticket must be sold for at least 1/3 (or is it 1/5?) of the price of the most expensive single-game ticket for that game. Using Lehigh as an example, it is easy to see how these policies can be easily circumvented. In 2004, Lehigh averaged around 11,000 actual attendance per game. Most likely, a move to I-A would increase attendance to some extent, but let's assume that it doesn't. With a maximum ticket price of $15, boosters or even the AD could purchase the difference between actual attendance and the 15,000 requirement for $5 per ticket. If Lehigh plays 6 home games per year at 11,000 actual per game, someone will have to pick up the tab for $120,000 in tickets purchased to reach the 15,000 requirement. Lehigh could increase their AD's salary by $120,000 with the understanding that he buys out all tickets required to hit the 15,000 requirement. This would act as an incentive to the AD for improving actual attendance, and most of the money will be returned to the school until actual attendance increases.

Season ticket sales can also be manipulated. Instead of charging $75 per season ticket, Lehigh could charge $1 but require a minumum annual donation of $75. The AD buys 15,000 season tickets for $15,075 dollars. Problem solved. I'm not sure how the IRS would feel about that, but a lot of schools require donations to purchase tickets already. There are probably dozens of other ways to get around the paid attendance requirement. At this point, there is more or less no minimum attendance requirement for I-A. If a school wants to play X number of sports and offer X number of football scholarships and total scholarships, they can play in I-A. And that's not good for I-AA.

[colgate13]

Editted:



:D
OK fine, it was put there for your benefit too. :bang: :spank: :spank: :spank: :p

[arkstfan]

The $1 ticket only works if the most expensive ticket is $3. At most institutions a plan to convert say an $18 ticket into a $3 ticket with a $15 "donation" creates real budget issues. You have the ticket office (in most cases a governmental arm as part of the university) collecting revenue on behalf of a private corporation (the booster club). The revenue deposited in the booster club is outside the regular controls of the university as a whole and therefore generally frowned upon come audit time.

As to the IRS, a quickie example. I have to donate $50 per seat where I sit in addition to the cost of the ticket which is I think $100 for the season. Now I actually donate $1000. The value of what I receive in ticket priority, parking, etc, is valued at I think $200. So I can deduct $800 of my donation.

If that was changed so that my $1000 got me 10 tickets (10 x 100), I would not be able to deduct any part of my donation. Now some businesses might be able to take a portion as entertainment expense but that doesn't help folks like me.

[arkstfan]

I-A does not require a 30,000 seat stadium. If it did, many MAC and Sun Belt schools would have been kicked out long ago. I believe there is some kind of attendance waiver that applies to conferences, in which 2/3 of the teams play in 30,000+ seat stadiums. I honestly don't know the details though.


Old rules.
Joining I-A required sponsoring 14 sports and playing 60% of games against I-A, 17,000 average "paid" attendance over 4 years OR 17,000 paid attendance in one of the four prior years if you had 30,000 seats.

Staying I-A required doing the above or one of the following:
-Average 20,000 paid home and away combined over the prior four years.
-Average 20,000 paid home and away combined over one of the prior four years if you had at least 30,000 seats.
- Be a member of a conference where more than half of the members meet I-A requirements.

New rules.
Average 15,000 paid or actual in one of the prior 2 years.
Play 5 countable I-A home games. (ie. one neutral site game is countable, one I-AA that meets minimum scholie levels is countable).
Sponsor 16 sports
Award 200 scholies and average at least 76.5 in football over 2 years.

The only sub 30,000 seat Sun Belt schools are incoming members FIU and FAU and out-going Idaho who dodged that by playing home games at Washington State.

[rufus]

arkstfan,
I figured you would be able to privide some info on this topic. For the $1 ticket example, could season ticket purchasers make donations to a university fund rather than a booster organization? Even if donations are going to an outside booster organization, I don't think the $1 scheme would be illegal. Most auditors probably wouldn't consider it a "best practice", but do you think that would stop the likes of FAU from trying it? Whether any of these examples are feasible or not, my point is that paid attendance requirements are easily circumvented and negatively impact I-AA.

[arkstfan]

Doesn't work if it isn't a true $1 ticket and the top ticket is more than $3. For paid attendance to work, it must cost at least 1/3rd of the price of the most expensive ticket generally available ticket. That's the skybox rule. You can't get a skybox ticket at the gate and generally not "club" level tickets because you generally pay the booster club and the booster club in turn takes the revenue and purchases your ticket (if they even bother to do the transfer).

So if you are selling walk-up tickets at $10 you need to be charging at least $3.34 for the low price ticket.

[ngineer]

I don't see Lehigh leaving I-AA. Philosophical and financial priorities would mitigate against such a move. In the hypothetical of and exodus to I-A, I would forsee the PL and Ivy hooking up with what was proposed 20 years ago--some kind of 'championship' game between each league's winner. While I share many of Fad's concerns over recent developments, this issue seems to be in a constant state of flux...

[blukeys]

But the clear fact is that I-AA is not going away and none of these schools are going I-A.

I see nothing new in this report that changes a whole lot in I-AA.

So the NCAA will not be enforcing their already too lenient 15,000 attendance rule for I-A. What a shock!!! I-A schools in the MAC, Sunbelt, etc. who have either been

1. thumbing their nose at this rule or
2. cheating on their attendance figures to "comply" with the rule.

will not be forced to drop down to I-AA.

Since 1978 how many I-A schools have been forced by the NCAA to drop down to I-AA? I know of only one school that has voluntarily dropped down and that is McNeese. I know many schools where it would be in their financial best interest to go to I-AA but their institutional stupidiity and arrogance have kept them in I-A. We all know who they are. The fact is if Temple kept 85 scollies they still would not win a I-AA NC.

So now we all know the emperor has no clothes.

What should everybody do?

The last I heard the Playoffs were not going away. Any team that wants to chase the big money (or more likely the big losses) of I-A is free to do so. They can compete for the Big BCS money (go for it Lehigh) or sign up for big guarantees and get their butts kicked most weekends in order to balance their football budget. (the East Carolina option)

Delaware as always will be cautious and they can afford to be as they make $1.5 million every year on football. Unless the ACC or Big East make an offer (don't hold your breath) Delaware will stay in I-AA. If I-AA appears to be unviable or if the NCAA pulls the plug on the playoffs UD will pursue the formation of a conference of similar schools that could be created in I-A. In particular they would try to make a move with JMU and W&M as these 3 schools have a similar academic profiles and their presidents (UD, JMU, and W&M) are joined at the hip. I see all the A-10 South as well as UMass and Northeastern as potential members of such a conference and a huge pitch would be made to Army and Navy to join. However, any public supported school in the 10,000 to 20,000 student range would be a potential participant in the conference and UD is pursuing relationships with schools that match this profile and have academics that fit with UD (Thus the '06 game with Albany). Such a new conference could arrange to have it's champion meet with another conference champion in a lower level Bowl.

I know some UD fans want to see a move to I-A but the administration will not make a hasty move and will await the I-A shakeouts that will occur in the next few years as well as take advantage of any I-AA Inducements that will be offered.

Despite Otto Fad's histrionics everyone should take a deep breath and relax. We will crown a I-AA national champion in '05. Some schools such as WKU may pursue the I-A dream and will probably see a I-AA NC as the highlight of their football history. There is nothing to stop them. But in reality there was nothing stopping anyone before who wanted to fund the 85 scollies except the threat of declassication by that toothless tiger the NCAA. Now we all know just what the real rules are.

[JoltinJoe]

Making the leap with you that it has to be one or the other, I tend to pretty much agree with your call about the PL. Lehigh would be clear favorite to make the move, imo.

Although there are a few vocal alums at Fordham hoping for us to make the move already (nowhere near a majority or even large minority), I think you're being overly generous with our program. Just my opinion, but NYC is a pro sports town and the combination of extremely poor facilities and being located in what might be the ultimate anti-college football town makes this both unlikely and, imo, unwise for Fordham.

In the eminent words of Rodney Dangerfield to Ted Knight, however, I will say "It looks good on you, though."

A football town or not? Could a resurgent, major Fordham program be successful in New York. I think so. Should we make the move? I don't think so.

Is NYC an anti-college football town, or is there just no major college football in the city? Did New York abandon college football, or did college football abandon New York?

Fordham suspended football after the 1942 season due to the war. Prior to that suspension, Fordham sold out or drew large crowds to six games a year at the Polo Grounds. Major college programs wanted in the worst way to get on Fordham's schedule in order to get a game in New York City. New York was very much, prior to World War II, not only a college football town, but the college football town. The Fordham game was inevitably one of the lead college games nationwide. The Rams played one of the toughest schedules in the country every year, hosting major powers from every region without any breathers once the season started, in what was described as "suicide scheduling." But usually Fordham was better than all comers, and was nationally recognized year in and year out as one of the best teams in the country.

College football town or not? Some have noted that Fordham's success in New York during that era was tied to both the incredible success of the program and the high-marquee value, week in and week out, of the Rams' opponents. They point out that NYU and Columbia, both of whom played big-time football at the same time, but neither as successfully, did not enjoy anywhere near the popularity that Fordham did. They say New York was a college football town so long as you fielded a powerhouse team, and played a powerhouse schedule. If you had an average team, and an average schedule, New Yorkers just were not as interested.

After World War II, Fordham consciously de-emphasized football, believing big-time football and high academics were on a collision course. Fr. Gannon, the university president at the time, emphatically said, "We will never have another great football team at Fordham."

With the de-emphasis of the program, the crowds at the Polo Grounds grew smaller, so that by 1954, season attendance was actually smaller than single game attendance during the pre-war era.

I think we should be careful about dreaming about the big-time again. History seems to show we would need to field a top Division I-A team in order to generate the crowds to fill up a facility like Yankee Stadium (the scene of many important Fordham games of years past). Are we willing to do what is necessary to not just play Division I, but play at the very top of Division I? This would entail significant academic compromises, and might invite many of the other problems associated with BCS football. When big money is involved, not everyone plays by the same rules or with the same ethics.

New York can be a college football town. But I think we should decline the temptation. Division I-AA Patriot League football presents us with a great vehicle to showcase our football tradition aagainst many fine and like-minded institutions.

[Fordham]

I not only loved the review of our glory days but I also agree with you that the PL & Fordham are puh-fect togeth-ah (as either Tom Keane or The Donald) would say.

That said, I disagree that NYC is or can be a college sports town again. Too many changes have taken place here since this town loved our Rams. The NFL wasn't important back then, now we have 2 teams and it's the most rabidly followed of all sports; the seasons for all sports have been extended so that you're now competing with either MLB or the NBA (and maybe oneday even the NHL again) for the attention of the NYC fan. So while I think there may be argument that you could generate enough interest to fill some large stadiums around here, I don't think NYC will ever again approach anything near to being a "college town".

[kardplayer]

NYC could easily be a college football town, but it would definitely require a good to great team. "Suicide scheduling" wouldn't hurt either.

Look at St. John's hoops prior to the recent troubles. They filled the Garden for their biggest Big East and OOC games even when they were in the middle of the Big East pack. And that was despite the competition from the Knicks and Rangers.

The reality is, there are so many alumni from so many big schools in the city, that a reasonable rotation of those big schools would sell out half the stadium before you got to Fordham fans and casual college football fans. In other words, bringing in Notre Dame every other year would eventually get old and even their alums would probably stop coming. But having a good mix of ND, Michigan, BC, Texas, Miami, USC, etc. would probably result in pretty strong attendance.

Of course, I live less than an hour from the city, my Dad is a Fordham alum, and my stepmother and I are both Lehigh alums, and I've never been to a Lehigh/Fordham game at Fordham, so I could be wrong.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NYC could easily be a college football town, but it would definitely require a good to great team. "Suicide scheduling" wouldn't hurt either.

Look at St. John's hoops prior to the recent troubles. They filled the Garden for their biggest Big East and OOC games even when they were in the middle of the Big East pack. And that was despite the competition from the Knicks and Rangers.

The reality is, there are so many alumni from so many big schools in the city, that a reasonable rotation of those big schools would sell out half the stadium before you got to Fordham fans and casual college football fans. In other words, bringing in Notre Dame every other year would eventually get old and even their alums would probably stop coming. But having a good mix of ND, Michigan, BC, Texas, Miami, USC, etc. would probably result in pretty strong attendance.

Of course, I live less than an hour from the city, my Dad is a Fordham alum, and my stepmother and I are both Lehigh alums, and I've never been to a Lehigh/Fordham game at Fordham, so I could be wrong.

I don't think NYC can be a "college football" town like the way there are captive audiences in Syracuse, Nebraska or Penn St. However, I happen to believe that elite football at the I-AA football level is perfect for NYC. If you raise the bar to say filling Giants stadium every weekend you'll be disappointed. However, with the right facility and promotion even games like Fordham/Columbia could pull in more than 20K.

I sound like a broken CD about this, but if all the NYC I-AA teams played round-robin for the "Liberty Cup" every year (Fordham, Hofstra, Columbia), you'd see a lot of interest in those games.

[Go...gate]

I, for one, hope that Fordham never leaves the PL, even though I would love major CFB in NYC again. But imagine Fordham-Notre Dame or Army-Notre Dame on a Fall Saturday in the city. It would be awesome.

[catdaddy2402]

a 1-A power, year in and year out, to sell NYC on college football. There is entirely too much competition for the sports fan's attention for anything less than a Miami, FSU, Oklahoma, or USC to draw the NYC sports fan's attention.