Those predicting the demise of FCS ought to read their history books

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/702-those-predicting-the-demise-of-fcs-ought-to-read-their-history-books

[DFW HOYA]

I'm not sure that "cost containment" is a driving force when schools like Fordham are spending upwards of $6 million to play the sport.

[Apphole]

What is Chuck Burton's name on AGS?

[Ivytalk]

A bit verbose, but I agree with the premise of the article.

[MplsBison]

What is Chuck Burton's name on AGS?

I assume LFN.

[MplsBison]

A bit verbose, but I agree with the premise of the article.

It's not like he's getting paid per word. Well...it's not like he's getting paid, period.

[Apphole]

I assume LFN.

Maybe. But it could be any of these Rubes. xsmiley_wix

[lionsrking2]

Nice read but didn't realize Southern Miss was in the state of Alabama. xrotatehxxeyebrowx

And it's even more open to question as to whether Conference USA can still be considered a "major conference" as Marshall's athletic director famously opined. Only four of their conference mates remain from the "mid-major" days of Conference USA just a few sort years ago. Two are from Alabama - Southern Miss and UAB. The other two are from Texas: Rice and UTEP. The rest of their new conference will consist of former Sun Belt and WAC schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nice read but didn't realize Southern Miss was in the state of Alabama. xrotatehxxeyebrowx

And it's even more open to question as to whether Conference USA can still be considered a "major conference" as Marshall's athletic director famously opined. Only four of their conference mates remain from the "mid-major" days of Conference USA just a few sort years ago. Two are from Alabama - Southern Miss and UAB. The other two are from Texas: Rice and UTEP. The rest of their new conference will consist of former Sun Belt and WAC schools.

LOL. This has been fixed.

[AppMan]

I've been following ASU football since the mid 70's and never heard anyone predict the end of the SoCon when Marshall left. Many said the conference would be weaker and it was. Those who think FCS is as strong today as it was 20 years ago is not using common sense. Losing programs like Boise, Nevada, Marshall, Troy, UCF, ULM, Ark State, and UMass no doubt weaken the division. The issue is people confuse being competitive with being good. FCS may be as competitive as it ever has been, but that doesn't make it as good as it once was.

[fc97]

but appman, that comparison does a disservice to everyone. the comparison of d-i football now to 20, 10 or even 5 years ago isnt a fair comparison. the distance from the top 5 conference to fcs is father now than it was in 1978. it was closer in 2005 than it is today. that marshall, troy or even app and gsu leaving doesn't change the fact that the fcs has stagnated and suffered under the set of rules and limitations that have been put in place by the ncaa. to say its not good is a relative statement, we're good within ourselves and shouldn't measure our strength based on what is going on in a division above that none of us have any control over.

there are a lot of truths to all sides of this. however to leave and constantly claim the demise of where you were does the rest of us a major disservice whether right or wrong.

[Apphole]

but appman, that comparison does a disservice to everyone. the comparison of d-i football now to 20, 10 or even 5 years ago isnt a fair comparison. the distance from the top 5 conference to fcs is father now than it was in 1978. it was closer in 2005 than it is today. that marshall, troy or even app and gsu leaving doesn't change the fact that the fcs has stagnated and suffered under the set of rules and limitations that have been put in place by the ncaa. to say its not good is a relative statement, we're good within ourselves and shouldn't measure our strength based on what is going on in a division above that none of us have any control over.

there are a lot of truths to all sides of this. however to leave and constantly claim the demise of where you were does the rest of us a major disservice whether right or wrong.

Good post

[bluehenbillk]

I posted this on another board, more on my view from this article as to how it effects Delaware vs FCS....

Forget how this whole thing effects FCS as a whole, how does it effect Delaware? We've seen UConn move up, as well as UMass, Old Dominion & Georgia St (we hardly knew ya GSU). Now we see App State & Ga Southern move up. Moving further back we see a postseason rival like Marshall move up. From a non-football side we see VCU & GMU move up. All the while, UD as far as we know has taken an ostrich approach to realignment. The only time we hear anything we hear nonsensical noise from Ziady referencing conversations with old ACC contacts.

Here's the view of many long-time UD Football fans: FCS football continues a pattern of watering down. Some of the elite teams - Marshall, UMass, App, GSU are gone, and they're being replaced by teams we used to snicker at - Towson, Stony Brook, Albany. Our first three home games this year are Jacksonville, DelState & Wagner. Those are three hard games to market. With more access to college football on fall weekends than ever before the college football fan, whether diehard or occasional, has become more saavy. If you think the only reason that attendance has dropped is the UDAF you're not looking at the whole picture. Yep, losing or non-playoff seasons against teams that don't impress the average fan goes a long way too.

I don't think people are necessarily predicting the demise of 1-AA football, but rather prognosticating as to where it's going, who's going to be involved, will it be 63 scholarship level as it is now & how many other teams will leave & when.

If you think the cries from Newark are loud now, what do you think it'd be like if/when JMU leaves?

[IBleedYellow]

Good read.

I'm of the belief that when someone takes a step back another will step up to take their place, which is exactly what your article was covering.

[MplsBison]

I posted this on another board, more on my view from this article as to how it effects Delaware vs FCS....

Forget how this whole thing effects FCS as a whole, how does it effect Delaware? We've seen UConn move up, as well as UMass, Old Dominion & Georgia St (we hardly knew ya GSU). Now we see App State & Ga Southern move up. Moving further back we see a postseason rival like Marshall move up. From a non-football side we see VCU & GMU move up. All the while, UD as far as we know has taken an ostrich approach to realignment. The only time we hear anything we hear nonsensical noise from Ziady referencing conversations with old ACC contacts.

Here's the view of many long-time UD Football fans: FCS football continues a pattern of watering down. Some of the elite teams - Marshall, UMass, App, GSU are gone, and they're being replaced by teams we used to snicker at - Towson, Stony Brook, Albany. Our first three home games this year are Jacksonville, DelState & Wagner. Those are three hard games to market. With more access to college football on fall weekends than ever before the college football fan, whether diehard or occasional, has become more saavy. If you think the only reason that attendance has dropped is the UDAF you're not looking at the whole picture. Yep, losing or non-playoff seasons against teams that don't impress the average fan goes a long way too.

I don't think people are necessarily predicting the demise of 1-AA football, but rather prognosticating as to where it's going, who's going to be involved, will it be 63 scholarship level as it is now & how many other teams will leave & when.

If you think the cries from Newark are loud now, what do you think it'd be like if/when JMU leaves?

I predict the demise of 60 scholarship level college football. Why pay for that many scholarships if the maximum is 85? You're not competing at the top level, but you're paying almost as much.

30/40 max sounds about right for a "cost-containment" level within Division I football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I posted this on another board, more on my view from this article as to how it effects Delaware vs FCS....

Forget how this whole thing effects FCS as a whole, how does it effect Delaware? We've seen UConn move up, as well as UMass, Old Dominion & Georgia St (we hardly knew ya GSU). Now we see App State & Ga Southern move up. Moving further back we see a postseason rival like Marshall move up. From a non-football side we see VCU & GMU move up. All the while, UD as far as we know has taken an ostrich approach to realignment. The only time we hear anything we hear nonsensical noise from Ziady referencing conversations with old ACC contacts.

Here's the view of many long-time UD Football fans: FCS football continues a pattern of watering down. Some of the elite teams - Marshall, UMass, App, GSU are gone, and they're being replaced by teams we used to snicker at - Towson, Stony Brook, Albany. Our first three home games this year are Jacksonville, DelState & Wagner. Those are three hard games to market. With more access to college football on fall weekends than ever before the college football fan, whether diehard or occasional, has become more saavy. If you think the only reason that attendance has dropped is the UDAF you're not looking at the whole picture. Yep, losing or non-playoff seasons against teams that don't impress the average fan goes a long way too.

I don't think people are necessarily predicting the demise of 1-AA football, but rather prognosticating as to where it's going, who's going to be involved, will it be 63 scholarship level as it is now & how many other teams will leave & when.

If you think the cries from Newark are loud now, what do you think it'd be like if/when JMU leaves?

A seriously interesting view from the Delaware perspective. 2 thoughts.

1. "Some of the elite teams - Marshall, UMass, App, GSU are gone, and they're being replaced by teams we used to snicker at - Towson, Stony Brook, Albany." That may be true, but you have to acknowledge that Towson, Stony Brook and Albany are not the same teams they were a decade ago. It's not that Delaware sucks so bad that they're now at the level of these teams - Towson and SBU had fairly stacked teams that were fully capable of running to the title last season.

It's sort of a catch-22: When you win the NC, you become "elite". NDSU wasn't an "elite" team when they went under .500 in their first year in the MVFC. Now they're back-to-back champs and now they're "elite". Had you played them in their transition year, would they, too, have been a team you snickered at?

2) "Our first three home games this year are Jacksonville, DelState & Wagner. Those are three hard games to market." Del State is not a hard game to market, but if you want a game that will sell out, the solution is easy. Schedule Lehigh or Lafayette. They will easily outdraw Jacksonville.

[bluehenbillk]

A seriously interesting view from the Delaware perspective. 2 thoughts.

1. "Some of the elite teams - Marshall, UMass, App, GSU are gone, and they're being replaced by teams we used to snicker at - Towson, Stony Brook, Albany." That may be true, but you have to acknowledge that Towson, Stony Brook and Albany are not the same teams they were a decade ago. It's not that Delaware sucks so bad that they're now at the level of these teams - Towson and SBU had fairly stacked teams that were fully capable of running to the title last season.

It's sort of a catch-22: When you win the NC, you become "elite". NDSU wasn't an "elite" team when they went under .500 in their first year in the MVFC. Now they're back-to-back champs and now they're "elite". Had you played them in their transition year, would they, too, have been a team you snickered at?

2) "Our first three home games this year are Jacksonville, DelState & Wagner. Those are three hard games to market." Del State is not a hard game to market, but if you want a game that will sell out, the solution is easy. Schedule Lehigh or Lafayette. They will easily outdraw Jacksonville.

Just a clarification - I specifically mentioned schools like Towson, Stony Brook & Albany as schools that would hold a stigma with a segment of fans. Somewhat geographical-proximity schools that were once lower-division squads, D2 or D3.

The DelState game has lost all credibility as the games aren't very close, yes there was a huge buildup in 2007 and maybe the largest crowd the Tub has ever seen, but that charismatic match-up has done a 180. Chances are high that after 2015 the contract will not be renewed. You are correct that Lehigh has historically brought fans to Newark, Lafayette has only played here once in recent memory & honestly didn't bring very many people at all to a playoff game. Just like the teams I mentioned earlier, there is nothing but a negative buzz associated with Patriot League level teams in Newark. What you're getting is a growing number of fans wanting upward movement in terms of scheduling & conference affiliation and a smaller number of fans coming out to pay more than ever for a product that is painted locally as "gradually becoming more watered down".

[Sammy94]

Just saying when words like FCS powerhouse and elite are being used to describe Sam Houston football, trust me the FCS demise must be coming.

[IBleedYellow]

Just saying when words like FCS powerhouse and elite are being used to describe Sam Houston football, trust me the FCS demise must be coming.

Yeah, because back to back runner up isn't something....

Common dude, don't sell your program short. There is a good chance SHSU is an up and coming powerhouse.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yeah, because back to back runner up isn't something....

Common dude, don't sell your program short. There is a good chance SHSU is an up and coming powerhouse.

SHSU has also made several runs in the past and been a team that has a decent playoff history even before this last couple of years.

If you are in the top 10% of the division when the final rankings come out you pretty damn good and if you do that often then I'd start to consider it a powerhouse. Maybe saying "has the making of a powerhouse" works better for this instance.

[AppMan]

but appman, that comparison does a disservice to everyone. the comparison of d-i football now to 20, 10 or even 5 years ago isnt a fair comparison. the distance from the top 5 conference to fcs is father now than it was in 1978. it was closer in 2005 than it is today. that marshall, troy or even app and gsu leaving doesn't change the fact that the fcs has stagnated and suffered under the set of rules and limitations that have been put in place by the ncaa. to say its not good is a relative statement, we're good within ourselves and shouldn't measure our strength based on what is going on in a division above that none of us have any control over.

there are a lot of truths to all sides of this. however to leave and constantly claim the demise of where you were does the rest of us a major disservice whether right or wrong.

I never said FCS was going to disappear. There is no disservice in saying FCS is weaker today than 1-AA was 20 years ago. Facts are facts. Losing programs that have won nearly 50% of the national championships and were in the hunt yearly absolutely weakened the division. FCS may be just as competitive, but it isn't nearly as strong. That isn't a slam, just the truth. Would you say D-II is weaker today having lost all those programs to FCS? The NCAA thought so and was so concerned they put a moratorium in place to stop it. Absolutely the BCS leagues have distanced themselves from the rest of the FBS pack. But that is five entire conferences, not 2-3 teams out of five conferences. That does not change the fact ASU has far more in common with lower level FBS programs than it does with all but about 10 FCS programs. The issue is two fold. Not only has the make-up of FCS changed ASU has changed as well and is no longer a good fit in FCS. Live long and prosper FCS.

In the last 15 years ASU vs Citadel 13-2, Elon 10-0, Furman 12-4 (1 playoff game), GSU 8-7, Samford 5-0, UTC 13-2, WCU 13-2, Wofford 9-4 = 83 - 21. All other FCS teams during the last 15 years 49-17. Total FCS game the last 15 years 132-38. A winning % of almost 78%.

[Sader87]

When you get right down to it, the only schools that really have the $$$, tradition and wherewithal to have a 1-AA/FCS program are the Ivies, the Patriot League schools and a few other outliers here and there (Montana, Delaware etc)...

[MplsBison]

When you get right down to it, the only schools that really have the $$$, tradition and wherewithal to have a 1-AA/FCS program are the Ivies, the Patriot League schools and a few other outliers here and there (Montana, Delaware etc)...

Indeed. There are very few FCS programs that are bringing in revenue to offset a 60 scholarship cost model.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

If the foundations of my experience with college football were from watching Yale and Lehigh, I'd share Chuck's point of view. Folks in the northeast know a lot about commuter trains, summer houses, and thick investment portfolios. When you're Harvard, Yale, or even Lehigh athletics don't serve to attract people to your school. For the millions of people who don't have the thick investment portfolios and attend Local State U, athletics is the ONLY way a national audience will hear about their school. It's simple marketing and getting your butt kicked by Alabama on Saturday afternoon still reaches more people than winning the FCS National Championship.

[walliver]

I find the question of how "good" FCS football is to be irrelevant.

The highest level of football in the known universe is the NFL. No-one in the NCAA can compete at that level (not even Alabama).
But, I still watch college football.
I still watch high school football.
I even watch JV football.

The game is played with 11 men from each team at a time. I don't care how many of them are on scholarship as long as they play with intensity and integrity.

Long term, I suspect that scholarship numbers at ALL levels will be decreased. Youth participation in lacrosse and soccer is rising, while football participation is falling. Title IX pressures will continue to rise

[Twentysix]

You should switch the S to a D in North Sakota State.

[Apps03]

I find the question of how "good" FCS football is to be irrelevant.

The highest level of football in the known universe is the NFL. No-one in the NCAA can compete at that level (not even Alabama).
But, I still watch college football.
I still watch high school football.
I even watch JV football.

The game is played with 11 men from each team at a time. I don't care how many of them are on scholarship as long as they play with intensity and integrity.

Long term, I suspect that scholarship numbers at ALL levels will be decreased. Youth participation in lacrosse and soccer is rising, while football participation is falling. Title IX pressures will continue to rise

Are you a fan of only Wofford, only the Panthers (or Falcons) or both? Your premise here would require people to only be fans of one or the other.
This argument always makes me laugh. You can't seriously be saying college football and pro football is the same sport. I don't completely disagree with your point however. I agree that I will pull for my team regardless of the classification. Again, personally, I'm not completely enamored with this move but, this is not a sound argument. FCS football will always be fine and competitive but my question would be, are the more successful schools pulling the bottom schools up or are the bottom schools pulling the top schools down. btw, I don't pretend to know the answer to that question.
Disclaimer: Please excuse any and all grammatical errors... I'm hammered

[CID1990]

Are you a fan of only Wofford, only the Panthers (or Falcons) or both? Your premise here would require people to only be fans of one or the other.
This argument always makes me laugh. You can't seriously be saying college football and pro football is the same sport. I don't completely disagree with your point however. I agree that I will pull for my team regardless of the classification. Again, personally, I'm not completely enamored with this move but, this is not a sound argument. FCS football will always be fine and competitive but my question would be, are the more successful schools pulling the bottom schools up or are the bottom schools pulling the top schools down. btw, I don't pretend to know the answer to that question.
Disclaimer: Please excuse any and all grammatical errors... I'm hammered

I cant stand the NFL. I dislike BCS football only marginally less. I dislike FBS football.

I love FCS football.

For all the reasons that most people's tastes are opposite mine.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[Apps03]

I cant stand the NFL. I dislike BCS football only marginally less. I dislike FBS football.

I love FCS football.

For all the reasons that most people's tastes are opposite mine.


Sent from the center of the universe.

I disagree with nothing you've said here. The only thing I would say is, knowing The Citadel grads and fans, if The Citadel had gone to FBS you would still be pulling for The Citadel and defending that decision in any way possible to all naysayers. Bulldogs are hardcore loyal to the school and all that it stands for. That's exactly what most App fans are doing on this message board. For reasons I may or may not agree with, this is the decision that has been made by folks with a lot more info than I have. Only time will tell if its the right decision.
As for the point of the thread, again, this App fan is not predicting the demise of the division just because ASU or GSU is leaving. Its a tournament, somebody has to win. For a basketball equivalent, take UNC, Michigan, Duke, Indiana, Louisville, Kentucky, etc. out of the NCAA tournament, its still a competitive tournament and somebody has to win. Does that still make it as good of a tournament? What you get is called the NIT (most years, I realize UK lost in round 1 this year but you get my point).
Previous disclaimer still applies..

[AppMan]

I cant stand the NFL. I dislike BCS football only marginally less. I dislike FBS football.

I love FCS football.

For all the reasons that most people's tastes are opposite mine.


Sent from the center of the universe.

I love all levels of college football. I appreciate the level of skill in the NFL, but dislike the showboat culture of it. Except when a Packer does the Lambeau Leap! :D

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I find the question of how "good" FCS football is to be irrelevant.

The highest level of football in the known universe is the NFL. No-one in the NCAA can compete at that level (not even Alabama).
But, I still watch college football.
I still watch high school football.
I even watch JV football.

The game is played with 11 men from each team at a time. I don't care how many of them are on scholarship as long as they play with intensity and integrity.

Long term, I suspect that scholarship numbers at ALL levels will be decreased. Youth participation in lacrosse and soccer is rising, while football participation is falling. Title IX pressures will continue to rise

Gotta love Title IX - Pretty typical Federal overreach whereby the IRS takes money from the states and then extorts the states into obeying an unconstitutional Federal mandate in order to get a portion of their own money back. In any case Football should just be declared a coed sport and let women compete for a position.

[dgtw]

Football should not count when trying to equalize athletic scholarships. It takes up more space than all the other sports but also brings in the most money and attention. Every other sport is played by both men and women.

[fc97]

I predict the demise of 60 scholarship level college football. Why pay for that many scholarships if the maximum is 85? You're not competing at the top level, but you're paying almost as much.

30/40 max sounds about right for a "cost-containment" level within Division I football.

see thats just silly.

cost-containment, if it truly were about cost-containment, wouldnt be about scholarship numbers, they would be about costs period. for instance, 63 scholarhips at elon is way more than 63 scholarships at app, but less than 63 scholarships at lehigh. out of those three, who contained the costs? the numbers are all the same, but the costs aren't. then you have other costs added, some more than others.

so picking an arbitrary 30-40 numbers is silly, thats not costs, thats just a number. you want to talk about true cost containment then make it about a ceiling on expenditures. and you can do that lots of ways, not just giving an arbitrary $20mil to spend too.

[MplsBison]

That's a fine point. But generally speaking, usually like schools are together in conferences (especially in the case of the Patriot League) so a conference wide mandate on scholarship maximum is an easy way to control some of the cost.