Lafayette's Tavani Speaks About PL Expansion, Recruiting, Scholarships, 150th Game

[carney2]

Lafayette head coach Frank Tavani used to have a reputation of speaking his mind. Here are some excerpts from an Alientown Mourning Crawl piece by Lafayette beat writer Paul Reinhard. The Groller referred to is Lehigh beat writer Keith Groller.

"Coach said people haven't yet addressed the issue of how many players will be permitted to dress for the special 150th game. It's Lafayette's home game, which would mean the Leopards could take everyone; but Patriot League rules limit the travel squad for league games. A special arrangement would have to be made to allow Lehigh to take its entire squad. Coach T says he wouldn't object to that, given that it is a one-time deal."

"That Yankee Stadium game will be used by both Lafayette and Lehigh throughout this recruiting season. Coach T said the reaction of potential recruits to the game is all positive -- and why not. This is, however, the only year the two schools will benefit from that attraction."

"I asked Coach T what he thought the Patriot League would have to do to get more credibility on a national level, and he said, 'Well, I think league expansion is going to be important. I think that's just No. 1. I know it's a priority. I know Carolyn (Schlie Femovich, the league's executive director) is working extremely hard at that, but it's hard. Right now there are a lot of restrictions -- more than the academic thing ... the no red-shirting and the fact that walk-ons with financial aid, academic or otherwise, count toward your scholarship numbers, so your squad size is going to reduce and a lot of people are not interested in that. I think it's all good moving forward and things will probably take some change as we go but I know league expansion ... we're bringing in new teams, but they're not playing football.'"

"Groller brought up the matter of scheduling non-league games with FBS schools, and Coach T said, 'Financially, they're guarantee games and we're looking at that. In 2015, I think we should be up to the minimum 57 to get to that. That's what we're working toward. Certainly you want to take advantage of some money games. I know Army's going to come back on the schedule, which is our alumni are happy about.'"

"Groller also addressed the touchy blending issue Patriot League coaches will face now that the league has gone to scholarships. Until we go through four recruiting classes, we will see teams that have merit-based scholarship guys playing alongside guys who are on need-based packages and the possibility for animosity is a real one. Keith wanted to know if Frank thought it would be harder to keep unity in the ranks now.

'You don't think about that right away, but certainly there's that group, and jealousy and envy always happens in our lives every day. But as I've explained to our football team and the parents, these are rule changes I did not make. This is how we operated up to this point, and this is how we're operating now. Everything else remains the same. Scholarship, non-scholarship, we have kids on the team right now that are paying their full way. Everybody is treated the same and you have to compete every day for your position. I'm sure there will be some of that, but I don't anticipate it being too much of a problem.'"

[DFW HOYA]

Good article--I always appreciate the fact that Coach Tavani likes to speak his mind.

"Unity in the ranks" is an important factor that needs to be addressed--not only within teams, but between teams. There's six teams on one end of the table, and one looking down the row. This could be a real problem for Georgetown as it begins to line up against schools that are going in a different direction. Lafayette is going to Yankee Stadium and Holy Cross alumni want to schedule BC--but no one at Georgetown is talking about better opponents or any marquee games. The fact that it had to pick up Marist late to fill the schedule is not a hopeful sign.

Coach Kelly has done a good job keeping player attrition down in recent years but this figures to be a rising problem as roster sizes decline and/or if the incoming Georgetown talent level drops precipitiously (and without predicting LFN's last rankings, this year's class is noticeably thinner than recent recruiting classes.) It's tough enough to get kids into Georgetown as it is right now, and now Kelly's got to plan on the top 90-100 PL recruits taking better offers elsewhere as a matter of course.

[RichH2]

Major block to expansion? It is and s/b first priority. All 3 are certainly factors preventing it. IMO, financial limitations are are only one that can be modified quickly.Clearly a funding move by PL to assuage budget issues with some schools. I expect this issue to be the one that can over time be modified. Would serve, a bit, to ease red shirt rule, which can also be altered,tougher to do tho. AI will never go away.

[ngineer]

Interesting take on the potential 'animosity' that could develop between scholarship and non-scholarship players. Really need a good coach who will be fair with all players regardless of their status.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

'You don't think about that right away, but certainly there's that group, and jealousy and envy always happens in our lives every day. But as I've explained to our football team and the parents, these are rule changes I did not make. This is how we operated up to this point, and this is how we're operating now. Everything else remains the same. Scholarship, non-scholarship, we have kids on the team right now that are paying their full way. Everybody is treated the same and you have to compete every day for your position. I'm sure there will be some of that, but I don't anticipate it being too much of a problem.'"

The most curious thing about this statement is that I haven't heard anything like it with the Lehigh coaching staff. It could be an issue on the Lehigh side as well, but I haven't heard a peep about it nor do I have any sense at all that there's any animosity between classes.

[carney2]

The most curious thing about this statement is that I haven't heard anything like it with the Lehigh coaching staff. It could be an issue on the Lehigh side as well, but I haven't heard a peep about it nor do I have any sense at all that there's any animosity between classes.

Please note that the issue was initiated by neither Tavani nor Reinhard. It was brought up by Keith Groller, the Lehigh beat writer. That would seem to indicate that he sees it as something of a universal concern of which the Squawks should in no way consider themselves immune.

[carney2]

To me, the most illuminating comment in the whole article was

"I know Army's going to come back on the schedule..."

No "I hope" or "I think." It sounds pretty definite to me.

[carney2]

Taking issue with a comment by RichH, I see the current redshirt rule as intractable. From a competitive standpoint it cannot be changed. With the current seven members, Fordham, Georgetown and Lehigh would have a HUGE advantage if traditional redshirting, as practiced at schools like William & Mary where virtually the entire freshman class is redshirted every year, were allowed. These three have viable graduate programs and therefore have a place to stockpile players for what would amount to an inevitable fifth year for many. The other four schools do not grant more than an occasional random graduate degree or have very limited graduate programs. They would be forced to slow down or otherwise tamper with normal progress toward a bachelor's degree to get that fifth year of eligibility. This would be a travesty and would work against the core principles of the Patriot League.

[van]

Please note that the issue was initiated by neither Tavani nor Reinhard. It was brought up by Keith Groller, the Lehigh beat writer. That would seem to indicate that he sees it as something of a universal concern of which the Squawks should in no way consider themselves immune.

Based on my many years of observing human nature, I believe that it must be a universal concern for at least 5 schools. Anyone from Rose Hill want to chime in on the experience to date up there?

[carney2]

The most curious thing about this statement is that I haven't heard anything like it with the Lehigh coaching staff. It could be an issue on the Lehigh side as well, but I haven't heard a peep about it nor do I have any sense at all that there's any animosity between classes.

It should also be noted that few, if any, of the scholarship kids have reported for work yet.

[DFW HOYA]

As to redshirting, would the PL accept greenshirting (recruits arrive a semester early to practice in the spring), or grayshirting (recruits arrive a semester late)?

[RichH2]

Given aid restrictions current, PL could not stockpile plauets like W&M. My suggestion, if expansion is major priority , is that an accommodation be made between aid PL aid limits and red shirt rules. AIwill remain in some form.Fin.aid, allow 60 schollies plus need aid to 63 max. Broaden grounds for red shirts to include, ie, 5yr undergrad programs. Doubt we would go for green or grey.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Does Wofford redshirt? I think they do. How do they do it?

[DFW HOYA]

Does Wofford redshirt? I think they do. How do they do it?

Wofford has 22 redshirt freshmen (and eight true freshmen) on its spring roster.

In PL terms, the numbers are somewhat simpler for redshirting. Instead of 15 recruits a year x 4 years = 60, a team would recruit 15 every year, with the expectation that three of the fifteen would eventually not remain with the team, be it from transfer, injury, player decision, or coach's decision.

The net is 12 full scholarship recruits x 5 years, which still adds to 60.

[superman7515]

Ah, the Houston Nutt approach.

[carney2]

As to redshirting, would the PL accept greenshirting (recruits arrive a semester early to practice in the spring), or grayshirting (recruits arrive a semester late)?

It is my understanding that some form of "greenshirting" already exists. An occasional high school senior completes his secondary school requirements in December and enrolls at the college of his choice in January, participating in spring practice. It isn't an every year happening, but I can name a recruit or two who have done it at Lafayette.

[carney2]

Wofford has 22 redshirt freshmen (and eight true freshmen) on its spring roster.

In PL terms, the numbers are somewhat simpler for redshirting. Instead of 15 recruits a year x 4 years = 60, a team would recruit 15 every year, with the expectation that three of the fifteen would eventually not remain with the team, be it from transfer, injury, player decision, or coach's decision.

The net is 12 full scholarship recruits x 5 years, which still adds to 60.

Even more remarkable is the approach that schools like W&M use. They recruit, let's say 15-18 per year, and most stick. With the freshman class generally 80% - 85% redshirted, that means that they have 5 "full" classes or 75+ scholarship players in the program at all times. The NCAA limit however is 63 so how does that happen? It turns out that only the rostered (non-redshirted) players count toward the 63 player limit. What's the chapter and verse that governs this? I have no idea. Sounds to me as if the NCAA has allowed a loophole to aid the "wealthy."

[superman7515]

Well you can have 85 players on scholarship, it just adds to 63 full scholarships, so there's no way to be certain how many players are getting what amount. They could have 20 a year getting 8/10 of a scholarship and have 80 kids on schollies (it comes out to 64, I know, but they can be a little high on some and low on others and make it work).

[danefan]

Even more remarkable is the approach that schools like W&M use. They recruit, let's say 15-18 per year, and most stick. With the freshman class generally 80% - 85% redshirted, that means that they have 5 "full" classes or 75+ scholarship players in the program at all times. The NCAA limit however is 63 so how does that happen? It turns out that only the rostered (non-redshirted) players count toward the 63 player limit. What's the chapter and verse that governs this? I have no idea. Sounds to me as if the NCAA has allowed a loophole to aid the "wealthy."

Kids that redshirt are counted against the scholarship limits. They're rather players, just not active for games. They practice with the team and in some cases even get some limited game action.

Ive never heard of not counting redshirts.

[carney2]

Ive never heard of not counting redshirts.

Then you, or someone, tell me how it works. How does a program redshirt virtually the entire freshman class year in and year out and comply with the 63 scholarship limit?

[Franks Tanks]

Then you, or someone, tell me how it works. How does a program redshirt virtually the entire freshman class year in and year out and comply with the 63 scholarship limit?

I think some programs offer kids a 1/2 scholarship during their redshirt year and bump them up to full later. The 63 and 85 limit is absolutely hard and fast regardless if guys are redshirting. I understand the percieved lack of depth with 63 over 5 classes, but Freshman typically are not ready to play so with the redshirt year a program should have more players ready to contribute at any given time.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Then you, or someone, tell me how it works. How does a program redshirt virtually the entire freshman class year in and year out and comply with the 63 scholarship limit?

Partials.

Nobody's answered my question about how Wofford College gets kids to stay five years at a four-year college. If a kid wants to go to grad school at Lehigh or Delaware after graduation and play football in their final year of eligibility, they can do so. Wofford is a four-year college, like Lafayette. How do they have redshirts?

[dgtw]

On the deal with 63 scholarships spilt among 85 players......is there a minimum amount each player gets? Could they give 62 people a full ride and give 23 players each 1/23 of a scholarship? (An extreme example, but you get my point)>

[Tribe4SF]

Partials.

Nobody's answered my question about how Wofford College gets kids to stay five years at a four-year college. If a kid wants to go to grad school at Lehigh or Delaware after graduation and play football in their final year of eligibility, they can do so. Wofford is a four-year college, like Lafayette. How do they have redshirts?

They spread their course load over 5 years. Generally take 12 credits each semester. At a school like W&M, many will finish in four, and get a semester of grad school covered. Others graduate in December, or May of their fifth year.

[Tribe4SF]

On the deal with 63 scholarships spilt among 85 players......is there a minimum amount each player gets? Could they give 62 people a full ride and give 23 players each 1/23 of a scholarship? (An extreme example, but you get my point)>

Schools take different approaches, but you're correct that the 85 can be broken up different ways. W&M has increasingly been using partials, and JMU has used them extensively in the past. Walk-ons have the opportunity to earn scholarship money, and partials have the opportunity to earn a full ride.

[Franks Tanks]

Partials.

Nobody's answered my question about how Wofford College gets kids to stay five years at a four-year college. If a kid wants to go to grad school at Lehigh or Delaware after graduation and play football in their final year of eligibility, they can do so. Wofford is a four-year college, like Lafayette. How do they have redshirts?

They just do. As tribe said kids take a few semesters with one less class, or just do not take a course required for graduation until their final semester. Most 5th year FB players are done after the fall semester anyway, so it is really 4.5 years and just one extra semester.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They spread their course load over 5 years. Generally take 12 credits each semester. At a school like W&M, many will finish in four, and get a semester of grad school covered. Others graduate in December, or May of their fifth year.


They just do. As tribe said kids take a few semesters with one less class, or just do not take a course required for graduation until their final semester. Most 5th year FB players are done after the fall semester anyway, so it is really 4.5 years and just one extra semester.

Thanks for clarifying. This seems to imply, with football scholarships, redshirting would be theoretically possible, the kids would just have to potentially have a 5th year of college courses paid for.

I seem to recall a few Lafayette kids getting a 5th year of eligibility and graduating on time, yet taking graduate courses at Lehigh.

Doesn't this mean then, essentially, that redshirting isn't the same line in the sand as it's being portrayed? Lafayette wouldn't "fall behind" Lehigh or Colgate, they'd simply rejigger things to operate the same way Wofford operates, with the potential of maybe some kids taking grad school classes at Lehigh or something.

[DFW HOYA]

And, it bears repeating, a redshirt doesn't have to go to graduate school. A nine semester experience could space out courses such that a player is taking fewer classes in the fall and, hopefully, doing better overall as a result.

[Tribe4SF]

Thanks for clarifying. This seems to imply, with football scholarships, redshirting would be theoretically possible, the kids would just have to potentially have a 5th year of college courses paid for.

I seem to recall a few Lafayette kids getting a 5th year of eligibility and graduating on time, yet taking graduate courses at Lehigh.

Doesn't this mean then, essentially, that redshirting isn't the same line in the sand as it's being portrayed? Lafayette wouldn't "fall behind" Lehigh or Colgate, they'd simply rejigger things to operate the same way Wofford operates, with the potential of maybe some kids taking grad school classes at Lehigh or something.

Don't believe grad courses at Lafayette would work. Pretty sure you have to be a full-time student at the school you're playing for, and pursuing a degree there.

[Franks Tanks]

Thanks for clarifying. This seems to imply, with football scholarships, redshirting would be theoretically possible, the kids would just have to potentially have a 5th year of college courses paid for.

I seem to recall a few Lafayette kids getting a 5th year of eligibility and graduating on time, yet taking graduate courses at Lehigh.

Doesn't this mean then, essentially, that redshirting isn't the same line in the sand as it's being portrayed? Lafayette wouldn't "fall behind" Lehigh or Colgate, they'd simply rejigger things to operate the same way Wofford operates, with the potential of maybe some kids taking grad school classes at Lehigh or something.

Student-Athletes who redshirt would just have to take one fewer classes for a few semesters so they can take 3 courses in the 9th semester (or however many classes they would need to take to stay eligible). Simply put they just need to spread their courses out a bit while making sure they have enough credits at any given time to be eligible. At most schools this is not an issue as many student (athletes or regular) need more than 4 years to graduate. The vast majority of FB players with a redshirt are still finishing up their undergrad degree. The smart ones finish up in less than 4 years (since they often take summer classes) and have a full year to work towards a masters. In an extreme example Penn State has a player entering his 5th year who I believe has already finished his masters in Math, and is starting to work on his doctorate. The kid is a genius, but my point is that basically the player just has to be enrolled in school, taking the proper number of credits and be in the process of working toward a degree of some kind to be eligible.

In the past financial aid was only for 8 semesters so players who wanted to redshirt took off the spring semester of their senior year. They often still lived off campus or in a frat and worked in some capacity for a few months (usually some sort of internship). It is also possible to double major to extend for an extra semester. Again there were complications in the past with financial aid, but they should not be the case for scholarships.

Most players that redhsirt are gone after the fall semester so it is typically only one additional semester that needs to be paid for. If the player knows in advance that they will need to extend for a semester they have options. If they are motivated they can double major. If they are less so they can spread out their classes. The only issue with redshirting in PL policy.

[PAllen]

Don't believe grad courses at Lafayette would work. Pretty sure you have to be a full-time student at the school you're playing for, and pursuing a degree there.

The Lehigh Valley Colleges (Lehigh, Lafayette, Muhlenburg, etc) have a cross registration agreement (or at least they used to). As a full time student at one, you can take courses at any of the others and have them transfer automatically if the course is not offered or available at your home school. Thus a student at Lafayette could take courses at Lehigh and have them count towards his course load and GPA at Lafayette.

[DFW HOYA]

Of course the PL could allow redshirting, we all know that. But they won't, because it doesn't "look right".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Lehigh Valley Colleges (Lehigh, Lafayette, Muhlenburg, etc) have a cross registration agreement (or at least they used to). As a full time student at one, you can take courses at any of the others and have them transfer automatically if the course is not offered or available at your home school. Thus a student at Lafayette could take courses at Lehigh and have them count towards his course load and GPA at Lafayette.

I knew I wasn't nuts, I remembered this. I don't know if it's still in effect, though.

[PAllen]

I knew I wasn't nuts, I remembered this. I don't know if it's still in effect, though.

Looks like it's still there (at least for undergrads).

http://www.lvaic.org/

[carney2]

I'm still not on board with the redshirting as it's been explained in this thread. Cutting to the chase:

1. Folks here are saying that the NCAA scholarship limit of 63 is firm and sacred. No wiggle room.

2. Therefore, schools that have 5 scholarship classes on the books at all times because most of the freshman class is redshirted only have 63 scholarships spread through those 5 classes.

3. Respondents on this thread say that these programs comply with the 63 scholarship limit by offering partial scholarships and using walk-ons.

4. Yet these are some of the top FCS programs in the country (CAA, SoCon, etc.).

5. Would the Patriot League not have a decided recruiting advantage over these schools with no redshirting? "Hey, kid," says the Colgate recruiter, "here's a full ride. Compare that against the redshirt partial you've been offered by CAA school no. 1 and SoCon school no. 2."

Sorry, folks, but this is just not making a lot of sense.

[DFW HOYA]

Would the Patriot League not have a decided recruiting advantage over these schools with no redshirting? "Hey, kid," says the Colgate recruiter, "here's a full ride. Compare that against the redshirt partial you've been offered by CAA school no. 1 and SoCon school no. 2."

In theory, yes, but in reality the CAA and SoCon schools are offering enough full rides to enough freshmen where this isn't an issue. (Wofford signed 27 this February.) Attrition helps keep the number under 63.

As long as they're admitted, whether it's 100% pure scholarship or 70% scholarship and 30% academic "grant" doesn't register to the kids--they have a scholarship. It's only in the need schools (Ivy, Georgetown, PFL, etc.) where the disparity is going to be noticeable.

[Engineer86]

The Lehigh Valley Colleges (Lehigh, Lafayette, Muhlenburg, etc) have a cross registration agreement (or at least they used to). As a full time student at one, you can take courses at any of the others and have them transfer automatically if the course is not offered or available at your home school. Thus a student at Lafayette could take courses at Lehigh and have them count towards his course load and GPA at Lafayette.

Now that would just be silly, if the Lafayette students were smart enough to get through the course, they would certainly want a degree from Lehigh since it is the better institution xlolxxlolxxlolx

[carney2]

Now that would just be silly, if the Lafayette students were smart enough to get through the course, they would certainly want a degree from Lehigh since it is the better institution xlolxxlolxxlolx

It's an institution, alright.

[RichH2]

PL wants to expand. Enuf to modify some rules? Aid easiest to do in theory, but the gulf between haves and have nots an obstacle. I have no philosophical issue with redshirting but agree with DFW that the academes would view it as unseemly. AI engraved in granite. Seems while Femovich and ADs may want it, the liklihood without compromise, either in the quality of the school or our rules, the window for expansion is miniscule. Either way, we need a few more yrs of schollies before it would be realistic.

[DFW HOYA]

PL wants to expand. Enuf to modify some rules? Aid easiest to do in theory, but the gulf between haves and have nots an obstacle. I have no philosophical issue with redshirting but agree with DFW that the academes would view it as unseemly. AI engraved in granite. Seems while Femovich and ADs may want it, the liklihood without compromise, either in the quality of the school or our rules, the window for expansion is miniscule. Either way, we need a few more yrs of schollies before it would be realistic.

This league moves glacially. It will not expand in football until they absolutely, positively have to (e.g., Fordham or Georgetown leaves) and by that point will be left with the likes of Monmouth or Marist.

The AI is the competitive firewall that keeps W&M and Villanova from seriously considering the move. And most of us know the last time Richmond gave it consideration, they ran off their president. Not allowing redshirts tells these schools that the PL is not a lateral move but a step down.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This league moves glacially. It will not expand in football until they absolutely, positively have to (e.g., Fordham or Georgetown leaves) and by that point will be left with the likes of Monmouth or Marist.

The AI is the competitive firewall that keeps W&M and Villanova from seriously considering the move. And most of us know the last time Richmond gave it consideration, they ran off their president. Not allowing redshirts tells these schools that the PL is not a lateral move but a step down.

I think the redshirt rules are a bigger "obstacle" to PL membership than the AI. CB B.W. Webb almost certainly could be admitted to William and Mary if they had to adhere to an AI, but he wouldn't be the potential first FCS player drafted if he graduated after four years. That redshirt year makes a whopping difference.

You know the true irony of all of this? Redshirting probably adheres better to the original Ivy League philosophy of amateurism than the current PL/IL rules do. For decades the IL prohibited freshman from playing intercollegiate sports to allow for them to adjust to college life before engaging in competition. When the IL rolled back that change, they instead adopted this system where freshmen were allowed to play but caused countless athletes to lose a potential year of eligibility - arguably, the worst of both worlds.

Instead the Ivies play these games with the eligibility - kids conveniently taking seasons off for "grades", or QBs mysteriously taking semesters off when high-profile transfers come in - only to magically become available when the guy ahead of them on the depth chart becomes hurt.

So I'd argue that it's not the AI that's the firewall, it's redshirting. And, ironically, redshirting is something that could actually help the kids academically, but "violates" the sarcosanct IL rules which themselves violate the spirit of the original IL agreement.

[RichH2]

Just one look.at Cornell wrestling defines IL actual application of red shirt ban. Hypocrisy, but PL Presidents love academic hypocrisy.

[Go Green]

QBs mysteriously taking semesters off when high-profile transfers come in - only to magically become available when the guy ahead of them on the depth chart becomes hurt.



Who fit that bill?

As for grades, my sense is that most/all of those IL guys legitimately flunked and were put on academic suspension.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Who fit that bill?

As for grades, my sense is that most/all of those IL guys legitimately flunked and were put on academic suspension.

2010. Collier Winters.

[ngineer]

PL wants to expand. Enuf to modify some rules? Aid easiest to do in theory, but the gulf between haves and have nots an obstacle. I have no philosophical issue with redshirting but agree with DFW that the academes would view it as unseemly. AI engraved in granite. Seems while Femovich and ADs may want it, the liklihood without compromise, either in the quality of the school or our rules, the window for expansion is miniscule. Either way, we need a few more yrs of schollies before it would be realistic.

Don't know why the academies would see 'red shirting' as "unseemly" since they use their respective "junior academies" to place their freshman in a holding pattern for a year.

[ngineer]

Just one look.at Cornell wrestling defines IL actual application of red shirt ban. Hypocrisy, but PL Presidents love academic hypocrisy.

Yes, Cornell is a joke. Not only redshirt, but they admit through the "state-side" of the institution many times to avoid other IL 'regulations'. Always surprised they have not been able to parlay that into a stronger program. It's been decades since the Big Red were a power.

[DFW HOYA]

Don't know why the academies would see 'red shirting' as "unseemly" since they use their respective "junior academies" to place their freshman in a holding pattern for a year.

Academes, not academies.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/academe

[ngineer]

Academes, not academies.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/academe

trouble with bifocals...read slower.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I prefer Grammar Girl

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/

and good ol' Willie Watt.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41IB03SUEyL._SL500_SY300_.jpg

[Go...gate]

It's an institution, alright.

I love watching you LC and LU fellows pick on each other. Some of the stuff that comes out is priceless.

[carney2]

Who fit that bill?

As for grades, my sense is that most/all of those IL guys legitimately flunked and were put on academic suspension.

Or double secret probation.

[Ivytalk]

Or double secret probation.

Knowledge is good!:D

[Pard4Life]

I love watching you LC and LU fellows pick on each other. Some of the stuff that comes out is priceless.

Don't think I have forgotten about you... and your inferior brand of toothpaste. xtroublex

[Go...gate]

Don't think I have forgotten about you... and your inferior brand of toothpaste. xtroublex

As an AquaFresh user (made in Moon Township, PA), I guess I should be rooting for Robert Morris!!! xrotatehx