Indiana State turns down Sun Belt offer - per ISU AD

[clenz]

http://tribstar.com/sports/x1520509571/ISU-MVFC-brace-for-change-at-FCS-football-level




Really worth the read...a couple quick points I found interesting





Internet rumors circulated that Indiana State had been approached by the Sun Belt Conference to bring the Sycamores’ football team into the Sun Belt’s fold.


I've literally heard zero of these rumors before this article...a lot of behind the scene stuff it seems



ISU still hasn’t come close to filling its small stadium … and Memorial Stadium’s capacity (12,764) doesn’t meet the FBS attendance requirement (15,000) in any case.


Proof the attendance rule doesn't matter...stadium can't hold 15k and still got an invite according to their AD.



Moreover, ISU only recently funded all of the 63 scholarships allocated at the Football Championship Subdivision level. The scholarship limit for a FBS program is 85.


No idea ISU wasn't funding all 63...how had they been counting as FBS wins in the past if that was the case?



“We were contacted by the Sun Belt. While flattering, it’s something we’re not ready for. We may be someday, but we’re not there now,” ISU Director of Athletics Ron Prettyman confirmed to the Tribune-Star.


Bombshell announcement, IMO, that apparently has made zero waves anywhere



“The million dollar question is to try and guess and anticipate what that future is,” Northern Iowa Director of Athletics Troy Dannen said.


...


“Over the last five years, people have been bailing FCS football as fast as they can to get into a bowl division,” Dannen said. “They’re not doing it for financial reasons. That’s a misnomer. You’re going to make more money, you’re going to spend more money. But I think they’re doing it because of an insecurity of where FCS football is headed.”


This has been Dannen's stance for a very long time. He and many others fear a split like the 1979 split, and being on the "top side" of the wave is always better than being left in the wake trying to "catch up"





“It’s fair to say that the continuing migration of some of the better teams in FCS into FBS is troubling, but we look at the finances and logistics and think it doesn’t make any sense,” MVFC commissioner Patty Viverito said.


“We think playing for national championships is a lot more interesting than playing in bad bowls with nobody present. That being what it is, there are people who find being in the FBS neighborhood attractive,” Viverito added.
Seems like a standard reply from an FCS conference commish.



“A school might say, ‘We’re on national TV, and no matter what bowl it is, you’re drawing a hefty audience on national TV and that’s a great commercial for your institution.’ There are things businesses and institutions do that might not always turn a profit, but profits in another way,” Southern Illinois Director of Athletics Mario Moccia.


...


Moccia said that when SIU advanced to the 2007 FCS playoff semifinals and played three home games in Carbondale, Ill., the school netted $28,000. He noted that SIU has never lost money on a home playoff game, but that the margins were in the $5,000 range.


SIU is one of the lucky schools. Outside of the top of the MVFC, SoCon (likely not the case anymore), CAA, and Big Sky I'd bet anyone else who hosts is losing money by doing so.






I'll stop there with quotes, as that's is only about half way through the article and I just want to pull the rest of it. UNI's AD Dannen is throwing lines out like crazy on this, and it's awesome. He speaks very frankly about it all...and those of you who don't fear another split/being left behind I encourage you to take what Dannen says seriously. He speaks publicly on almost no issue, but has been very outspoken on this.






In the article he also states UNI could play MAC football next year and it would be a financial wash compared to what we do now...however, the issue would be if we were forced to take all sports to the MAC. That is what would cause us to lose money--


Like many UNI fans from the start have stated, because it was said by Dannen at the start...a move to the FBS for football only for UNI is a good move. Any move that takes us from the MVC for other sports is not.

[BisonFan02]

I think the top half of the MVFC would be more than competitive in the MAC....NDSU doesn't have the non-football MVC ties that would be problematic like UNI, SIU, etc, but the location is probably the death nail. A lot of Dannen's quotes in the article I have seen in quite a few publications, and NDSU's AD Taylor has been quoted along the same lines. I posted this article in the other thread, but who isn't the Sunbelt willing to consider at this point? How does ISUb fit the mold in any way?

[clenz]

I think the top half of the MVFC would be more than competitive in the MAC....NDSU doesn't have the non-football MVC ties that would be problematic like UNI, SIU, etc, but the location is probably the death nail. A lot of Dannen's quotes in the article I have seen in quite a few publications, and NDSU's AD Taylor has been quoted along the same lines. I posted this article in the other thread, but who isn't the Sunbelt willing to consider at this point? How does ISUb fit the mold in any way?
I missed it there...apologies.


NDSU is ****ed outside of an extremely desparate conference...say the WAC in a couple years if they can save it going forward.


The cost of football playing isn't the issue for most FCS schools moving, it would be the added cost of sending all of the other sports all over the country....which is why almost all of the realignment has been east of the Mississippi where 90% of the D1 institutions are. NDSU sending teams to Buffalo, UMASS, multiple trips to Michigan/Ohio, in the MAC would kill them...and the MAC isn't going to want to send teams to Fargo. The same is true for the current MVC schools....the only option for most of them is that someone takes 2 or 3 of them to create a geographic conference....like the MAC taking ISUr, UNI, and say SIU/MSU


That means the MAC could split

UNI, ISUr, SIU, NIU, Ball State, Miami, BGSU, and CMU to the West and go EMU, Toledo, Akron, KSU, Ohio, Temple, Buffalo, UMASS

Even that is pretty rough and the west won't want 3 FCS move ups.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Temple is in the aac now.

[Twentysix]

Temple is in the aac now.

aac? Did they formally join the ACC, or is that the new bigeast name? I can't find it on google, and I can't keep up with all this ****.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I missed it there...apologies.


NDSU is ****ed outside of an extremely desparate conference...say the WAC in a couple years if they can save it going forward.


The cost of football playing isn't the issue for most FCS schools moving, it would be the added cost of sending all of the other sports all over the country....which is why almost all of the realignment has been east of the Mississippi where 90% of the D1 institutions are. NDSU sending teams to Buffalo, UMASS, multiple trips to Michigan/Ohio, in the MAC would kill them...and the MAC isn't going to want to send teams to Fargo. The same is true for the current MVC schools....the only option for most of them is that someone takes 2 or 3 of them to create a geographic conference....like the MAC taking ISUr, UNI, and say SIU/MSU


That means the MAC could split

UNI, ISUr, SIU, NIU, Ball State, Miami, BGSU, and CMU to the West and go EMU, Toledo, Akron, KSU, Ohio, Temple, Buffalo, UMASS

Even that is pretty rough and the west won't want 3 FCS move ups.

Temple is now an all sports member of the AAC.

[clenz]

Temple is now an all sports member of the AAC.
Good catch...I was using an old photo of the MAC membership to do the split....

Drop Temple from the East and one of the FCS schools from the west...still doesn't work real well. Works best for the two Illinois schools due to proximity over UNI...However, one, or, both of them voted against /had serious issues with certain schools joining the MVFC and MVC for baseball based on travel.

[dgtw]

It says they were approached by the Sun Belt, not that they had a formal offer. It sound a lot like UTC's "offer" a few weeks ago that was the big buzz on here. The sun Belt likely sent out a mass e-mail to a bunch of schools to see who would be interested and Indiana Sate was on their list simply because they were reasonably close to the conference footprint and the league office knew where Larry Bird went to college.

[IBleedYellow]

If the 1 Million per schools gets instituted at the FBS level this all goes away very quickly. UNI would also not be playing MAC football if that occurs. NDSU won't ever play MAC football of the 1 Million cap gets put into effect. I don't know if I really want that to happen, but it would probably stop the split that everyone fears is coming.

Nexus 4

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It says they were approached by the Sun Belt, not that they had a formal offer. It sound a lot like UTC's "offer" a few weeks ago that was the big buzz on here. The sun Belt likely sent out a mass e-mail to a bunch of schools to see who would be interested and Indiana Sate was on their list simply because they were reasonably close to the conference footprint and the league office knew where Larry Bird went to college.

There's a Nigerian prince joke here somewhere.

[Herder]

I missed it there...apologies.


NDSU is ****ed outside of an extremely desparate conference...say the WAC in a couple years if they can save it going forward.


The cost of football playing isn't the issue for most FCS schools moving, it would be the added cost of sending all of the other sports all over the country....which is why almost all of the realignment has been east of the Mississippi where 90% of the D1 institutions are. NDSU sending teams to Buffalo, UMASS, multiple trips to Michigan/Ohio, in the MAC would kill them...and the MAC isn't going to want to send teams to Fargo. The same is true for the current MVC schools....the only option for most of them is that someone takes 2 or 3 of them to create a geographic conference....like the MAC taking ISUr, UNI, and say SIU/MSU


That means the MAC could split

UNI, ISUr, SIU, NIU, Ball State, Miami, BGSU, and CMU to the West and go EMU, Toledo, Akron, KSU, Ohio, Temple, Buffalo, UMASS

Even that is pretty rough and the west won't want 3 FCS move ups.


You know Clenz, I heard it all from the UNI fans when NDSU was added to the MVFC. Crappy school, crappy location, can't compete, etc, etc, why in the hell did they add NDSU? How long did it take for UNI fans to figure out that move was going to turn out?

From my MSP home, would I rather drive to Fargo, located on a major interstate, or to UNI which is the same distance in the middle of freaking no-where IA on a state highway? Would I rather fly into Fargo with a great airport a mile from campus, or try to figure out how in the hell to fly into the Cedar Falls, IA area and find a bus?

If NDSU could land itself in a higher level conference, you'd see what NDSU is capable of in basketball, as you've seen what NDSU is capable of in football. NDSU is a primary university in a state, with a major following in western MN. not a 2nd choice directional regional school in the central region of IA where fans goto the game if the primary state institutions aren't playing. Say what you want about NDSU as a basketball school, but NDSU had 15k fans at an NCAA basketball tournament game, and will blossom as a basketball school in 2015 when a 35 million dollar arena opens. Say what you want about NDSU, but NDSU has already shown you where your crappy football schools stands, and will do the same in basketball within 10 years.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

There's a Nigerian prince joke here somewhere.

My Great Uncle is a Nigerian prince.....I never met him though....I hear he just passed away

[IBleedYellow]

You know Clenz, I heard it all from the UNI fans when NDSU was added to the MVFC. Crappy school, crappy location, can't compete, etc, etc. From my MSP home, would I rather drive to Fargo, located on a major interstate, or to UNI which is the same distance in the middle of freaking no-where IA on a state highway? Would I rather fly into Fargo with a great airport a mile from campus, or try to figure out how in the hell to fly into the Cedar Falls, IA area and find a bus?

If NDSU could land itself in a higher level conference, you'd see what NDSU is capable of in basketball, as you've seen what NDSU is capable of in football. NDSU is a primary university in a state, with a major following in western MN. not a 2nd choice directional regional school in the central region of IA where fans goto the game if the primary state institutions aren't playing. Say what you want about NDSU as a basketball school, but NDSU had 15k fans at an NCAA basketball tournament, and will blossom as a basketball school in 2015 when a 35 million dollar arena opens. Say what you want about NDSU, but NDSU has already shown you where your crappy football schools stands, and will do the same in basketball within 10 years.

I've thought about this for awhile. What makes Cedar Falls so much better than Fargo? Our airport isn't bad, maybe a little expensive to fly into, but that doesn't change when you charter a flight in. You CAN drive here relatively easy unless there is a storm, which can occur for ANY school in the Midwest, Cedar Falls isn't the exception to this.

As far as athletics goes, let's face it, UNI isn't the top school in the region. NDSU is the top school any direction for at least 4 hours. Some people I know prefer to cheer for NDSU in the cities and don't cheer for the Goofs because they like to cheer for a winner. But I don't want to get into a pissing match anymore about UNI.

[Herder]

How about those Sycamores! Sorry for getting off topic . . . back on topic. Indiana State, really? Football, rearlly? I can think of about 6 or 7 other Valley football schools who would be more equipped than the Syc's for MAC football, including a completely isolated and crappy NDSU, that according to Clenz, would be the last school that reasonable minds would ever consider.

[Franks Tanks]

aac? Did they formally join the ACC, or is that the new bigeast name? I can't find it on google, and I can't keep up with all this ****.

AAC is the new name of the Big East- It is the American Athletic Conference, which is basically the old C-USA.

[PAllen]

My Great Uncle is a Nigerian prince.....I never met him though....I hear he just passed away

We must be related! He was my Great Uncle too. I heard he just passed away last week, though I must be a closer relative than you, I'm apparently in for a sizable inheritance. The nice people who are handling the arrangements are going to forward the money directly into my checking account. I can't wait.

Oh Crap! I just checked, I gave them mplsbison's checking account by mistake. Oh well, have fun with the money mpls. xsmiley_wix

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

Quite a stretch to say ISU "turned down" the Sun Belt. The SB contacted them to check their financial status and future desires, but to say they turned down a offer to join a FBS conference is totally misleading.

[Thundar]

You know Clenz, I heard it all from the UNI fans when NDSU was added to the MVFC. Crappy school, crappy location, can't compete, etc, etc, why in the hell did they add NDSU? How long did it take for UNI fans to figure out that move was going to turn out?

From my MSP home, would I rather drive to Fargo, located on a major interstate, or to UNI which is the same distance in the middle of freaking no-where IA on a state highway? Would I rather fly into Fargo with a great airport a mile from campus, or try to figure out how in the hell to fly into the Cedar Falls, IA area and find a bus?

If NDSU could land itself in a higher level conference, you'd see what NDSU is capable of in basketball, as you've seen what NDSU is capable of in football. NDSU is a primary university in a state, with a major following in western MN. not a 2nd choice directional regional school in the central region of IA where fans goto the game if the primary state institutions aren't playing. Say what you want about NDSU as a basketball school, but NDSU had 15k fans at an NCAA basketball tournament game, and will blossom as a basketball school in 2015 when a 35 million dollar arena opens. Say what you want about NDSU, but NDSU has already shown you where your crappy football schools stands, and will do the same in basketball within 10 years.

xslapfightx

xpopcornx

[Thundar]

How about those Sycamores! Sorry for getting off topic . . . back on topic. Indiana State, really? Football, rearlly? I can think of about 6 or 7 other Valley football schools who would be more equipped than the Syc's for MAC football, including a completely isolated and crappy NDSU, that according to Clenz, would be the last school that reasonable minds would ever consider.


think you meant Sun Belt right?

[clenz]

I've thought about this for awhile. What makes Cedar Falls so much better than Fargo? Our airport isn't bad, maybe a little expensive to fly into, but that doesn't change when you charter a flight in. You CAN drive here relatively easy unless there is a storm, which can occur for ANY school in the Midwest, Cedar Falls isn't the exception to this.

As far as athletics goes, let's face it, UNI isn't the top school in the region. NDSU is the top school any direction for at least 4 hours. Some people I know prefer to cheer for NDSU in the cities and don't cheer for the Goofs because they like to cheer for a winner. But I don't want to get into a pissing match anymore about UNI.
There is only 3 other D1 schools within 4 hours of Fargo...UND )about 1.25 hrs) and SDSU (just a touch under 3 hours), and Minnesota (3.5 hours)....I'd hope the are one of the top athletic schools in their region.


UNI's athletics match up with any of the schools around here...then again within 5 hours of Cedar Falls we have
School Hours from CF


Iowa
1.5


Iowa State
1.5


Drake
2


Western Illinois
3


Wisconsin
3.1


Minneota
3.25


Bradley
3.5


Creighton
3.75


Northern Illinois
3.75


USD
4


Kansas City
4


Illinois State
4.25


Marquette
4.25


UW-M
4.25


All of the Chicago schools
4.5


Illinois
4.75


Nebraksa
4.75


St. Louis
5


Missouri
5


SDSU 5
Hell, we're only 5.5 hours from Notre Dame, and closer to Minneapolis than NDSU.

I'm probably forgetting some....When people can leave CF by 5 AM Saturday morning and get to 7 or 8 different big 10/big 12 games that would be 11AM kick offs of course we won't be the biggest draw. Come basketball season there are 3 other D1 schools within 2 hours...

No, we aren't the biggest draw. Drawing 98% of the Fargo market is easy as hell compared to 50% of the eastern Iowa/Western Illinois market. I won't argue that.


I'm not arguing NDSU can draw well....
I'm not arguing NDSU's athletics won't continue to grow....


You NDSU fans are so uptight about anything that isn't sucking the Bison cock you can't have a rational discussion. I'm not talking football here...it's already been said that the top 30% of FCS schools could be FBS football only, and stay in their current other sports conference, and have the money come out as a push. It's when you need to add in the other sports the loss comes in...the extra travel between Fargo and Cedar Falls to the MAC/CUSA/AAC schools would be a difference maker. Sending a football team once every other year? Sure. Sending mens and womens basketball, softball, baseball, volleyball, indoor and outdoor track, tennis, golf, soccer, etc... every year on top of football IS an issue. I also said that was the issue for UNI when it came to a different conference. We can afford to send our football team anywhere in the MAC every other year...and probably our mens basketball team since they make a couple mil per year. However, we can't afford to send our other sports out like that. I don't know why you guys get so offended by me saying that. I know you can't see it because it's your team/your city but being in Fargo is a huge draw back. If you put NDSU in Brookings it's not as much of an issue....put them in Sioux Falls it's almost no issue, at least no more so than Cedar Falls. That isn't me slamming your university, your academics, your athletics, your freaking anything. It's the ****ing truth whether you ****ers can admit it or not.

How do you get to Cedar Falls compared to Fargo? How about landing your plane in Waterloo and taking a 10 minute bus trip to UNI's campus (5.7 miles) like most schools do.



As for UNI's athletics compared to the rest of the schools in our region? I don't know about all of them but...

Football - 16 conference championships

Mens Basketball - 6 NCAA appearances in 10 years, a S16, multiple conference regular season and tournament titles, 10 straight 18 win seasons, 5 straight 20 win seasons, 4 straight post season tournament appearances, multiple weeks in the top 25 rankings (not just the mid major rankings), finished in the top 100 of the RPI 8 times in the last 10 years (2 times we didn't were 112 and 131), multiple wins over NCAA top 25 teams - including 2 this past season

Womens basketball - prior to about 2008 wasn't real good, but since then multiple conference titles, a couple trips the NCAA's, runner up in the WCBI, WNIT appearance.

Volleyball - 347-88 record the last 13 seasons..haven't finished worse than 4th in conference since 1996, 8 conference titles during that period, 10 NCAA's over that time period, multiple S16's, won at least 20 matches 12 of the last 13 seasons, top 10 win % in the NCAA last 13 years, top 10 in attendance every season, multiple all americans, nearly 40 different all conference players, won 65 consecutive conference matches before losing their first one in over 3 years this past season...still finished 15-3 in conference play and made the NCAA's,

Wrestling - finished in the top 20 this year with almost the entire line up returning next year with multiple all americans, finished in the top 10 previously in the NCAA's, about a dozen all americans the last decade or so, consistently a top 15-20 team prior to the previous coach running the proud program into the ground. New coach has brought the team back, wrestling facility completely gutted and renovated into a wrestling specific facility the last couple years with more upgrades coming....doing that all well having Iowa and Iowa State (2 of the best programs in NCAA history) within 2 hours of us.

track and field - I can't remember the exact number but the mens team has something like 18 conference titles and women have about a dozen


All of that with an athletic budget of roughly 15 million....No it doesn't give us B1G/B12 type teams, but it's not too shabby for being a "directional third tier school in a state of 3 million"

[Laker]

My Great Uncle is a Nigerian prince.....I never met him though....I hear he just passed away

One day in class I was telling my students about Nigerian letters. Low and behold, later that day I got one. It was eerie.

[FargoBison]

You NDSU fans are so uptight about anything that isn't sucking the Bison cock you can't have a rational discussion. I'm not talking football here...it's already been said that the top 30% of FCS schools could be FBS football only, and stay in their current other sports conference, and have the money come out as a push. It's when you need to add in the other sports the loss comes in...the extra travel between Fargo and Cedar Falls to the MAC/CUSA/AAC schools would be a difference maker. Sure. Sending mens and womens basketball, softball, baseball, volleyball, indoor and outdoor track, tennis, golf, soccer, etc... every year on top of football IS an issue. I also said that was the issue for UNI when it came to a different conference. We can afford to send our football team anywhere in the MAC every other year...and probably our mens basketball team since they make a couple mil per year. However, we can't afford to send our other sports out like that. I don't know why you guys get so offended by me saying that. I know you can't see it because it's your team/your city but being in Fargo is a huge draw back. If you put NDSU in Brookings it's not as much of an issue....put them in Sioux Falls it's almost no issue, at least no more so than Cedar Falls. That isn't me slamming your university, your academics, your athletics, your freaking anything. It's the ****ing truth whether you ****ers can admit it or not.

How do you get to Cedar Falls compared to Fargo? How about landing your plane in Waterloo and taking a 10 minute bus trip to UNI's campus (5.7 miles) like most schools do.

Well there is a reason why NDSU's travel partner is SDSU and it will continue to be that way. Teams can fly into Fargo bus to Brookings and fly out of SF or vice versa(this makes it easier for sports like basketball and volleyball where you can play both Dakota schools in one trip). NDSU's big issue is that SDSU is nowhere close to being FBS ready and UNI can't be our travel partner, it just isn't practical. So not only are we a long way from any FBS conference, we have nobody to even partner with.

Our isolation is both a blessing and a curse.

[clenz]

Well there is a reason why NDSU's travel partner is SDSU and it will continue to be that way. Teams can fly into Fargo bus to Brookings and fly out of SF or vice versa. NDSU's big issue is that SDSU is nowhere close to being FBS ready and like you said UNI can't be our travel partner, it just isn't practical.

Our isolation is both a blessing and a curse.

Agree 100 percent.

It's great in terms of being top area talent and fan support...however when you're that isolated there is a big problem in moving from conference to conference to improve your entire athletic department.


on UNI's side we didn't have a"peer"in the MAC either. We are 14k enrollment, most MAC are 24k plus. We could easily accept that many students, as our acceptance rate is only 55 percent...we just sung have the room to grow that much without years of construction and planning and MILLIONS of aide dollars from the state, which won't happen. If we took the acceptance rate of NDSU, SDSU, SIU all peer institution in many ways, our many other schools across the nation including Iowa and Iowa state, we could easily get to 25k enrollment. Most schools I mentioned are running 80-90+ percent acceptance rate. The quick, rough, math days if we take a 90 percent at UNI we'd be at 28k...we don't have the space it resources for that though. Size would make it easier to afford the added costs since the fees from students would be doubled.

The fact is both of us are more or less screwed right now

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2

[FargoBison]

The fact is both of us are more or less screwed right now

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2

Pretty much, we are stuck in what is becoming college football's third tier. App State and GSU saw that and got out while they still could. Your AD nailed it with what he said in that article.

[clenz]

Pretty much, we are stuck in what is becoming college football's third tier. App State and GSU saw that and got out while they still could. Your AD nailed it with what he said in that article.

He's been nailing it for about a year now. Like I said, he doesn't speak this openly on any subject. I worked at UNI when he first took over..learned very quickly how tightly he wanted things run. So for him to speak as candidly, consistently, as he has about this is why I've gone from wanting to stay fcs to being okay with a move. There will be a split, as to how big is yet to be seen...there are schools who don't want to be left behind/out of the second tier. The common assumption from ADs it seems that it's going to be better to move up and get adjusted back down than to be left behind and try to work back to the second tier...be it because of another moratorium, stricter rules, etc...

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[IBleedYellow]

The fact is both of us are more or less screwed right now

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This.

I really wish that CF was closer to Fargo somehow, because UNI and NDSU as travel partners would work very well. Come on Rabbits, get your ducks in a row.



One more thing: If the C5 conferences get capped at 12 teams due to the 1M per school, what would this do to FCS football? Would the BCS/FBS split still occur? I just am not sure if there is any more room at the FBS level for even the top tier FCS teams. Which is a shame.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Of course, if there's hysteria about being "left behind", it gives conferences like the MAC and Sun Belt a reason to exist at all.

There's a very large missing possibility not being bandied about: that the SEC, Big XII, Pac 12, and Big 10 break off from the Sun Belt/MAC/AACs of the world and shut them out of the big money. People talk then about three subdivisions, but why wouldn't the Sun Belt and MAC be forced to reclassify down? I mean, what reason would the Sun Belt have to exist?

[Saint3333]

I mean, what reason would the Sun Belt have to exist?

I thought it only existed to give you something to do.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Good move by Indiana State. The Sun Belt is a terrible conference.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Of course, if there's hysteria about being "left behind", it gives conferences like the MAC and Sun Belt a reason to exist at all.

There's a very large missing possibility not being bandied about: that the SEC, Big XII, Pac 12, and Big 10 break off from the Sun Belt/MAC/AACs of the world and shut them out of the big money. People talk then about three subdivisions, but why wouldn't the Sun Belt and MAC be forced to reclassify down? I mean, what reason would the Sun Belt have to exist?

This seems like the most likely scenario. When the BCS was created with autonomy over the championship process, it opened the door to leaving the NCAA. The bowls are all independent events, all the way down to the smallest one. The conferences act independently in their business affairs/contracts, etc.

When all the power conferences get to 16 members, they will form their own championship bracket and then the FBS will be fighting over who can be in the Car Quest bowl.

[ASUMountaineer]

Good move by Indiana State. The Sun Belt is a terrible conference.

They weren't invited, therefore it wasn't a "move" at all.

I see you're back to your trolling ways. The Sun Belt may be a terrible conference, but for App State it is better than the SoCon. Get over it.

[PaladinFan]

This seems like the most likely scenario. When the BCS was created with autonomy over the championship process, it opened the door to leaving the NCAA. The bowls are all independent events, all the way down to the smallest one. The conferences act independently in their business affairs/contracts, etc.

When all the power conferences get to 16 members, they will form their own championship bracket and then the FBS will be fighting over who can be in the Car Quest bowl.

This all makes my head hurt.

Let me put it this way. I don't particularly care what the NCAA decides to call whatever place Furman plays. I go to watch my alma mater play against schools that, in many cases, they have been playing against for thirty, forty, eighty, or a hundred years. If it is FCS. Fine. If it is something else. Fine. All this hysteria needs to worry other people. I'll show up in the fall and watch Furman play whichever school is lined up on the other sideline, just like always.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

This all makes my head hurt.

Let me put it this way. I don't particularly care what the NCAA decides to call whatever place Furman plays. I go to watch my alma mater play against schools that, in many cases, they have been playing against for thirty, forty, eighty, or a hundred years. If it is FCS. Fine. If it is something else. Fine. All this hysteria needs to worry other people. I'll show up in the fall and watch Furman play whichever school is lined up on the other sideline, just like always.

Same here. I have seen about half of one Ohio State game despite having it shoved up my *** here. If this is the big time, it matters little to me. Since moving to Columbus, I have flown and driven thousands of miles to see NDSU. I wouldn't be interested in it more or less because it's in a different division.

[Professor Chaos]

Quite a stretch to say ISU "turned down" the Sun Belt. The SB contacted them to check their financial status and future desires, but to say they turned down a offer to join a FBS conference is totally misleading.
Agreed, I doubt the Sun Belt offered them anything other than a feeler. My guess is that more schools are contacted and never made public knowledge than we'd think. Perhaps the Sun Belt isn't just looking at football profiles, Indiana St has a very good men's basketball program and, quite frankly, all their non-football sports are in a much better conference in the MVC than the SBC will ever be.

[ASUMountaineer]

Same here. I have seen about half of one Ohio State game despite having it shoved up my *** here. If this is the big time, it matters little to me. Since moving to Columbus, I have flown and driven thousands of miles to see NDSU. I wouldn't be interested in it more or less because it's in a different division.

So, you were against NDSU's move from D-II? Interesting...

[NoDak 4 Ever]

So, you were against NDSU's move from D-II? Interesting...

I'm curious as to why you keep saying that to me, even though it doesn't refute anything I have said.

[Apphole]

Good move by Indiana State. The Sun Belt is a terrible conference.

Not saying that they were ever offered an invitation, because they were not, but overall, the SBC has better media coverage, a tv deal, more net revenue, higher home game attendance, better facilities and better brand recognition than ANY FCS league in these United States. "Better" is a subjective term, so if you're into small-time football (and being a UR fan you surely are) I can understand why the Sun Belt would be terrible in your eyes.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Not saying that they were ever offered an invitation, because they were not, but overall, the SBC has better media coverage, a tv deal, more net revenue, higher home game attendance, better facilities and better brand recognition than ANY FCS league in these United States. "Better" is a subjective term, so if you're into small-time football (and being a UR fan you surely are) I can understand why the Sun Belt would be terrible in your eyes.

Makes sense, if you're not winning championships, might as well get some money out of it, no?

[PaladinFan]

Not saying that they were ever offered an invitation, because they were not, but overall, the SBC has better media coverage, a tv deal, more net revenue, higher home game attendance, better facilities and better brand recognition than ANY FCS league in these United States. "Better" is a subjective term, so if you're into small-time football (and being a UR fan you surely are) I can understand why the Sun Belt would be terrible in your eyes.

Let's be clear. App State was small time football two months ago. They are still small time football now.

[ASUMountaineer]

I'm curious as to why you keep saying that to me, even though it doesn't refute anything I have said.

Of course it does. What's good for NDSU is not good for other schools. The hypocrisy is just too good to let it go. I simply find it amazing that so many people, unaffiliated with App State and the Sun Belt, have such strong views on the matter. xthumbsupx

[ASUMountaineer]

Let's be clear. App State was small time football two months ago. They are still small time football now.

Let's be clear, you knew what Apphole was referencing/implying.

Most of us App fans are reasonable. We do not put the Sun Belt on the same level as the SEC. We do not believe that the Sun Belt is the greatest conference with a bunch of "world beaters," as some have ridiculously said. We don't necessarily believe that the Sun Belt will provide a panacea for App State.

What we do believe is that the Sun Belt is a venue to obtain what App State wanted, that is to be FBS. Why that bothers so many here is beyond me. I just can't figure it out. I posted here when UMass went FBS...I couldn't have cared less.

[IBleedYellow]

I am still of the belief that there is only 1 FBS slot left, and the SBC holds that current slot. They sent out feelers to a few schools that they thought would fit geographically. Hell for all we know NDSU, SHSU, UNI, ISUr or ANY other school in the country could have been inquired about by the SBC because they have that last slot. Don't talk about how they wouldn't due to geography, because I point to Idaho.

FYI: The SBC is not top 10 basketball league. I realize that this is talking about FBS football here, but it would kill them to go up to FBS football and remove themselves from the MVC for all other sports, not to mention get up to Title IX scholarships. This just wasn't going to happen.

[Apphole]

Let's be clear. App State was small time football two months ago. They are still small time football now.

Yes. Hence the years of dissonance in the fanbase prior to the move.

I respect the FCS, especially the level of play of the CAA, SoCon, Big Sky and MVFC leagues, but as far as the tangibles go (as I listed in that last post) it is unfortunately small-time. Don't misconstrue my frustration with certain aspects of the FCS and the comparison of the FCS to the FBS as some sort of arrogant, "we're better than you now" stance. It's what's best for every individual program, and sometimes "small-time" is what's best. That wasn't what was best for Appalachian, though I suppose that point is still arguable.

[TheRevSFA]

I am still of the belief that there is only 1 FBS slot left, and the SBC holds that current slot. They sent out feelers to a few schools that they thought would fit geographically. Hell for all we know NDSU, SHSU, UNI, ISUr or ANY other school in the country could have been inquired about by the SBC because they have that last slot. Don't talk about how they wouldn't due to geography, because I point to Idaho.

FYI: The SBC is not top 10 basketball league. I realize that this is talking about FBS football here, but it would kill them to go up to FBS football and remove themselves from the MVC for all other sports, not to mention get up to Title IX scholarships. This just wasn't going to happen.

Rumors are still strong that the last spot is going to be extended to Sam Houston.

They would accept.

I'll be sad to lose the rivalry game but you gotta do what you gotta do

[IBleedYellow]

Rumors are still strong that the last spot is going to be extended to Sam Houston.

They would accept.

I'll be sad to lose the rivalry game but you gotta do what you gotta do

They'll accept it with their 8k averages per year. I realize that the attendance isn't honestly enforced, but I find that funny. xlolx

My money on who gets the invite? Jacksonville State.

[ASUMountaineer]

Rumors are still strong that the last spot is going to be extended to Sam Houston.

They would accept.

I'll be sad to lose the rivalry game but you gotta do what you gotta do

Any idea as to which team would head east?

[MplsBison]

This seems like the most likely scenario. When the BCS was created with autonomy over the championship process, it opened the door to leaving the NCAA. The bowls are all independent events, all the way down to the smallest one. The conferences act independently in their business affairs/contracts, etc.

When all the power conferences get to 16 members, they will form their own championship bracket and then the FBS will be fighting over who can be in the Car Quest bowl.

Which still has more meaning than the FCS championship.

Just because you get some trophy at the end of the season from the NCAA that says you're a "champion" doesn't mean you accomplished the top feat of college football.

[walliver]

They'll accept it with their 8k averages per year. I realize that the attendance isn't honestly enforced, but I find that funny. xlolx

My money on who gets the invite? Jacksonville State.

Jax State seems to be the only FBS- prepared candidate who has any interest in the SunBelt.

I suspect that Troy doesn't want them in their club , however.

I suspect Troy will try to block them, but will back down if no-one else wants to go to the belt.

I really don't see the need for 12 teams. A SBC championship will not draw a large crowd (maybe 20-30K - not a lot of revenue to split 12 ways). Television will probably be ESPN-U on a Thursday, and won't generate a lot of revenue.

[TheRevSFA]

Any idea as to which team would head east?

That's a real good question.

[ASUMountaineer]

That's a real good question.

I would assume ULL or stAte, but I don't think they would be down with being split up. My guess is that they really want to an eastern team, but if they don't have one and are dead set on a CG, then they may not have a choice.

[Herder]

Pretty much, we are stuck in what is becoming college football's third tier. App State and GSU saw that and got out while they still could. Your AD nailed it with what he said in that article.

Hello . . . There are Two Tiers, 2 Championships, & 2 Scholarship Levels. All this talk about 3 Tiers is just that, talk. Please explain how in the h*ll the current FBS will possilby split? There is just no reasonalble or intelligent way to make this happen through scholarship changes, spending or attendance. The bottom of FBS will go kicking and screaming from the top level.

Why does playing FBS football in a conference that has zero access to the championship mean that you are in a separate Tier? It does not, it just means that you are FBS and have no access to the championship. The schools going FBS like APP & GS are going to the FBS for sure, and to Tier 1, but they are currently in Tier 1 without an avenue to a champoinship, other than that of the Sunbelt.

I believe, however, there is a day coming where ALL FBS conferences will have an avenue to the Top Championship in a 12 team playoff field with 8 conf champs (10 conf Champs , 6 autos with 4 playing-in for 2 spots to reach 8) and 4 At-Large berths. Those 12 will share a large pot of revenue (with 2 conferences mostly missing out because of the play-in), and the non-tournament teams will play in some meaningless bowls pre-christmas. * (To tip things further in favor of the large conferences it could even be 3 play-in games (6 playing-in; 4 autos, total of 7 champions in the field and 5 At-Large berths. in the scenario, the SEC, B1G, P12 & B12 would likely never play-in, but the other 6 conferences would battler to make the tournament)

The 12 Team Tournament Might Look Like: (5 At Large Model)
SEC Champ (1)
B1G Champ (1)
B12 Champ (1)
P12 Champ (1)
ACC Champ vs SBelt Champ (1) Play-In
MAC Champ vs MWC Champ (1) Play-In
AAC Champ vs CUSA Champ (1) Play-In
At Large 1 (1) SEC
At Large 2 (1) B1G
At Large 3 (1) B12
At Large 4 (1) SEC
At Large 5 (1) Notre Dame

All 12 teams would be Seeded with a similar method to the BSC ranking system. Top 4 Seeds (which could include At-Larges) would have 1st round Bye. All teams not making the 12 team field would be eligible for a Bowl game. Round 1 & 2 at home of the Higher Seed; Round 3 Final Four Site. Round 4 NC Site. Money would be distributed between the conferences of the 12 teams making the field. Lose the play-in, no money.

Will it mean something to be FBS in the Sunbelt then when there is an avenue to a NC? Yes it will. Right Now? Still Tier 1, but with no avenue to a championship. You decide how beneficial that really is.

Is there urgency for FCS teams to get to an FBS conference like APP and GS seem to think there is? Could be . . . hard to say. If you believe (like I do) that a day is coming where all FBS conference have an avenue to the top championship, then the remaining FCS schools will be competing for only a few open spots and the price to move will be jacked up to the millions. If you believe that the lower confernces in FBS will never have access to the championship, then move at your own speed, and there is no hurry.

Why do I think a 12 team playoff is coming? Money & Meaning. A championship in this format will rival the NCAA basketball tournament, and generate a boatload of money. It will also provide an avenue for all, and will serve to lift up all of college football.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Hello . . . There are Two Tiers, 2 Championships, & 2 Scholarship Levels. All this talk about 3 Tiers is just that, talk. Please explain how in the h*ll the current FBS will possilby split? There is just no reasonalble or intelligent way to make this happen through scholarship changes, spending or attendance. The bottom of FBS will go kicking and screaming from the top level.

Why does playing FBS football in a conference that has zero access to the championship mean that you are in a separate Tier? It does not, it just means that you have no access to the championship. The schools going FBS like APP & GS are going to the FBS for sure, and to Tier 1, but they are currently in Tier 1 without an avenue to a champoinship, other than that of the Sunbelt.

I believe there is a day coming where all FBS conferences will have an avenue to the Top Championship in a 12 team playoff field with 8 conf champs (10 conf Champs , 6 autos with 4 playing-in for 2 spots to reach 8) and 4 At-Large berths. Those 12 will share a large pot of revenue (with 2 conferences mostly missing out because of the play-in), and the non-tournament teams will play in some meaningless bowls pre-christmas.

Will it mean something to be FBS in the Sunbelt then when there is an avenue to a NC? Yes it will. Right Now? Still Tier 1, but with no avenue to a championship. You decide how beneficial that really is.

There may be an avenue to the championship but it will not be one that includes the SEC, B1G, or the Pac-whatever. They will play for their own trophy

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

The Sun Belt may be a terrible conference, but for App State it is better than the SoCon. Get over it.

I didn't mention App State. You or one of the many App State fans on the thread about Indiana State brought them up.

You and your friends really have your dander up, trying to defend this move that you're purportedly so comfortable with.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

better brand recognition than ANY FCS league in these United States.

Can you go ahead and expand on the Sun Belt "Brand"?

xpopcornx

[Apphole]

Can you go ahead and expand on the Sun Belt "Brand"?

xpopcornx

Higher TV ratings (or a tv deal at all), more coverage from the media nationally and locally and higher attendance are all indicative of brand awareness. Are you saying that an FCS conference bests the SBC in any of these things or are you just jumping back and forth comparing the SBC to the SEC like so many do on this board all the time?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Can you go ahead and expand on the Sun Belt "Brand"?

xpopcornx

The Ivy League has way more brand recognition than the SBC.

I also argue that some of the FCS conferences are a little better known because of hoops. The SBC really needs to step up their basketball game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Ivy League has way more brand recognition than the SBC.

I also argue that some of the FCS conferences are a little better known because of hoops. The SBC really needs to step up their basketball game.

A Sun > SBC

[Apphole]

The Ivy League has way more brand recognition than the SBC.
Not in sports. Also, we all know that the Ivy's are only technically in the subdivision. Most people, even those familiar with the FCS, would never think to list them among other FCS conferences.


I also argue that some of the FCS conferences are a little better known because of hoops. The SBC really needs to step up their basketball game.
Agreed.

[ASUMountaineer]

I didn't mention App State. You or one of the many App State fans on the thread about Indiana State brought them up.

You and your friends really have your dander up, trying to defend this move that you're purportedly so comfortable with.

I offered no defense of the move, simply a statement of fact. My statement was objective, yours was subjective. Your posts all have the same theme, bash the SBC. Don't get defensive when someone calls you out on the BS.

[Herder]

The 12 Team Tournament Might Look Like: (5 At Large Model)
SEC Champ (1)
B1G Champ (1)
B12 Champ (1)
P12 Champ (1)
ACC Champ vs SBelt Champ (1) Play-In
MAC Champ vs MWC Champ (1) Play-In
AAC Champ vs CUSA Champ (1) Play-In
At Large 1 (1) SEC
At Large 2 (1) B1G
At Large 3 (1) B12
At Large 4 (1) SEC
At Large 5 (1) Notre Dame

All 12 teams would be Seeded with a similar method to the BSC ranking system. Top 4 Seeds (which could include At-Larges) would have 1st round Bye. All teams not making the 12 team field would be eligible for a Bowl game. Round 1 & 2 at home of the Higher Seed; Round 3 Final Four Site. Round 4 NC Site. Money would be distributed between the conferences of the 12 teams making the field. Lose the play-in, no money.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Not in sports. Also, we all know that the Ivy's are only technically in the subdivision. Most people, even those familiar with the FCS, would never think to list them among other FCS conferences.

Harvard-Yale? Everyone knows about that game.

Hoops has given the IL face time for the last 35 years. Penn '79, Pete Carril, Princeton-GTown '89, Princeton-UCLA '96, Cornell '10, Dunphy/Penn etc.

The problem the SBC has is they're bottom tier in the two major sports. They need to get good in one of them.

[asumike83]

The Ivy League has way more brand recognition than the SBC.

I also argue that some of the FCS conferences are a little better known because of hoops. The SBC really needs to step up their basketball game.

Ivy is a different animal. They've probably got more brand recognition than ANY conference, FCS or FBS, because of their academics and rich history.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The 12 Team Tournament Might Look Like: (5 At Large Model)
SEC Champ (1)
B1G Champ (1)
B12 Champ (1)
P12 Champ (1)
ACC Champ vs SBelt Champ (1) Play-In
MAC Champ vs MWC Champ (1) Play-In
AAC Champ vs CUSA Champ (1) Play-In
At Large 1 (1) SEC
At Large 2 (1) B1G
At Large 3 (1) B12
At Large 4 (1) SEC
At Large 5 (1) Notre Dame

All 12 teams would be Seeded with a similar method to the BSC ranking system. Top 4 Seeds (which could include At-Larges) would have 1st round Bye. All teams not making the 12 team field would be eligible for a Bowl game. Round 1 & 2 at home of the Higher Seed; Round 3 Final Four Site. Round 4 NC Site. Money would be distributed between the conferences of the 12 teams making the field. Lose the play-in, no money.

So the Big Four will willingly go from controlling 85% of all the playoff money to 50%? Fat chance.

[MplsBison]

Jax State seems to be the only FBS- prepared candidate who has any interest in the SunBelt.

I suspect that Troy doesn't want them in their club , however.

I suspect Troy will try to block them, but will back down if no-one else wants to go to the belt.

I really don't see the need for 12 teams. A SBC championship will not draw a large crowd (maybe 20-30K - not a lot of revenue to split 12 ways). Television will probably be ESPN-U on a Thursday, and won't generate a lot of revenue.

Easy to be a pessimist. Will you admit you're wrong if the SBC championship game gets equal coverage by ESPN as does the MAC championship game?

[MplsBison]

There may be an avenue to the championship but it will not be one that includes the SEC, B1G, or the Pac-whatever. They will play for their own trophy

Nope.

They'll make more money being in a tournament with a group of five. Otherwise, those conferences would've staged their own bball tournament years ago.

No one cares about the Ohio St v UCLA sweet sixteen matchup (except alumni). But a FGSU sweet sixteen game? Underdog storyline.

[fc97]

Nope.

They'll make more money being in a tournament with a group of five. Otherwise, those conferences would've staged their own bball tournament years ago.

No one cares about the Ohio St v UCLA sweet sixteen matchup (except alumni). But a FGSU sweet sixteen game? Underdog storyline.

i thought this too until this story:
http://usat.ly/ZE8KYT

the networks would rather have guaranteed money games than risk it on a vcu, fgsu, gmu, davidson type.

this doesnt matter for football but does show a larger thought process for networks and advertisers than was thought of before. and really shows why the group of five, plus a few mountain west and big east types are really in their own class compared to the rest. and it really shows how logic could easily dictate that they can or will do what they want at the expense of all the others easily and without problem.

[MplsBison]

I'll check out the story later, but I'm guessing it's one of things where pretty much anybody can read what they want to see out of it.


I would say that at the absolute end of the day, you can't argue with this line of reasoning: networks don't give a crap about what teams are actually playing in the game so long as the ratings are maximized.

[FargoBison]

Hello . . . There are Two Tiers, 2 Championships, & 2 Scholarship Levels. All this talk about 3 Tiers is just that, talk. Please explain how in the h*ll the current FBS will possilby split? There is just no reasonalble or intelligent way to make this happen through scholarship changes, spending or attendance. The bottom of FBS will go kicking and screaming from the top level.

I never said there are three tiers right now but we are moving in that direction. The top five FBS conferences could basically kill the FCS if they wanted to, all they have to do is stop scheduling FCS games and the house of cards that is the FCS topples over.

Right now the power leagues are moving towards scheduling fewer FCS games.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Higher TV ratings (or a tv deal at all), more coverage from the media nationally and locally and higher attendance are all indicative of brand awareness. Are you saying that an FCS conference bests the SBC in any of these things or are you just jumping back and forth comparing the SBC to the SEC like so many do on this board all the time?

No.

You brought up the Sun Belt Brand. So what is the Sun Belt Brand?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

I offered no defense of the move, simply a statement of fact. My statement was objective, yours was subjective. Your posts all have the same theme, bash the SBC. Don't get defensive when someone calls you out on the BS.

The thread isn't about App State but i'll go ahead and fall into your trap.

What about your statement was objective?

[fc97]

I'll check out the story later, but I'm guessing it's one of things where pretty much anybody can read what they want to see out of it.


I would say that at the absolute end of the day, you can't argue with this line of reasoning: networks don't give a crap about what teams are actually playing in the game so long as the ratings are maximized.

actually, its not one of those where you can read anything out of it. there are very specific sections that talk about what the networks expect and talks strictly about march madness and why that isn't safe.

that leads into why you last comment isn't right it all. the networks do give a crap. they don't want the risk of maximized ratings. they want stable, predictable ratings that maximize revenue from advertising. it basically says, yes, you see spurts of higher ratings due to a wichita state, davidson, vcu type of school. but at the end, you cannot depend on items like that happening to maximize revenue, it is much safer to take guaranteed ratings unc vs ohio state than it is to take possible ratings from a winthrop vs ohio state.

[Cocky]

They'll accept it with their 8k averages per year. I realize that the attendance isn't honestly enforced, but I find that funny. xlolx

My money on who gets the invite? Jacksonville State.

Historically we have had the upperhand on Troy so they will block us with all their mite. Cant say I blame them if you evr been their it a tough place to recruit to. Alabamas population is shifting from that area of the state as farming becomes an even smaller part of our economy. But thats the way the world turns and they have enough problem recruiting against USA and now GaSo will cause new problem in GA and N FL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

actually, its not one of those where you can read anything out of it. there are very specific sections that talk about what the networks expect and talks strictly about march madness and why that isn't safe.

that leads into why you last comment isn't right it all. the networks do give a crap. they don't want the risk of maximized ratings. they want stable, predictable ratings that maximize revenue from advertising. it basically says, yes, you see spurts of higher ratings due to a wichita state, davidson, vcu type of school. but at the end, you cannot depend on items like that happening to maximize revenue, it is much safer to take guaranteed ratings unc vs ohio state than it is to take possible ratings from a winthrop vs ohio state.

Personally I think the TV executives are underestimating this quite severely. While I'm not Joe Average viewer, I will never watch UNC vs. Ohio State in a cloistered tournament but would be happy to watch FGCU/Florida in a tournament open to all. Matter of fact, once FGCU got eliminated I think I only watched the second half of the final.

Also, while the fan population of "alums of FGCU" couldn't fill half of the Palestra, if that, when you add up all the fans of these schools across the country you actually get a sizeable chunk of fans across the country, including some that stick with the tournament all the way through. You can bet CBS and the NCAA were very, very happy to see LaSalle make the Sweet 16 in order to make Philadelphia give a crap about the tournament once Villanova was eliminated.

Fans are always the last consideration by everyone in all of these moves in regards to TV, conference realignment, everything. Everyone seems to think that fans will pay an infinite amount of time and money for their product. They are sorely mistaken.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Historically we have had the upperhand on Troy so they will block us with all their mite. Cant say I blame them if you evr been their it a tough place to recruit to. Alabamas population is shifting from that area of the state as farming becomes an even smaller part of our economy. But thats the way the world turns and they have enough problem recruiting against USA and now GaSo will cause new problem in GA and N FL.

If the Sun Belt cares as much about rivalries and a regional focus, as they were shopping to Georgia Southern, they should snatch up Jacksonville State, one of the few FCS moveups that makes sense. Unfortunately it seems like politics are playing an outsized role, however.

[Herder]

So the Big Four will willingly go from controlling 85% of all the playoff money to 50%? Fat chance.

Out of these 12 Playoff berths, how many are from the SEC, B1G, P12 & B12? Look again, there are 8 of 12, and would be 9 of 12 if I didn't include Notre Dame. Maybe 8/12 or 9/12 = 50% at Lehigh, but it is 66% & 75% everywhere else.

This type of playoff would be huge for FBS football. It would generate huge money, split the money to the schools and conferneces that deserve it based on performance, create 1-2 David/Goliath matchups each year like basketball does, would make every FBS conference championship have meaning, and most importantly it would create opportunity for all 125 schools. How is this not a win-win-win for everyone involved? It avoids a messy FBS separation and keeps 125 schools at the levels without a need for scholarship changes while providing playoff advantage for the top conferences.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Out of these 12 Playoff berths, how many are from the SEC, B1G, P12 & B12? Look again, there are 8 of 12, and would be 9 of 12 if I didn't include Notre Dame. Maybe 8/12 or 9/12 = 50% at Lehigh, but it is 66% & 75% everywhere else.

This type of playoff would be huge for FBS football. It would generate huge money, split the money to the schools and conferneces that deserve it based on performance, create 1-2 David/Goliath matchups each year like basketball does, would make every FBS conference championship have meaning, and most importantly it would create opportunity for all 125 schools. How is this not a win-win-win for everyone involved? It avoids a messy FBS separation and keeps 125 schools at the levels without a need for scholarship changes while providing playoff advantage for the top conferences.

Or the Big Four can essentially send their championship winners to the plus-one playoff and keep 85% of the money, with 100% of their champions making the finals and 100% of their champions calling themselves National Champions.

Opportunity for the other schools? Why would the BCS care one whit about that?

[fc97]

Personally I think the TV executives are underestimating this quite severely. While I'm not Joe Average viewer, I will never watch UNC vs. Ohio State in a cloistered tournament but would be happy to watch FGCU/Florida in a tournament open to all. Matter of fact, once FGCU got eliminated I think I only watched the second half of the final.

Also, while the fan population of "alums of FGCU" couldn't fill half of the Palestra, if that, when you add up all the fans of these schools across the country you actually get a sizeable chunk of fans across the country, including some that stick with the tournament all the way through. You can bet CBS and the NCAA were very, very happy to see LaSalle make the Sweet 16 in order to make Philadelphia give a crap about the tournament once Villanova was eliminated.

Fans are always the last consideration by everyone in all of these moves in regards to TV, conference realignment, everything. Everyone seems to think that fans will pay an infinite amount of time and money for their product. They are sorely mistaken.

i don't think they are doing anything but thinking of the safe way to maintain money in an ever changing media environment. they wont stand and risk losing the something guaranteed for the possibility that a cinderella story happens.

the problem with your line of thinking is adding up the fans of all the non-big time schools like that makes some sort of difference. most students, even those at places like middle tennessee and app have a big school they pull for.

[PaladinFan]

Which still has more meaning than the FCS championship.

Just because you get some trophy at the end of the season from the NCAA that says you're a "champion" doesn't mean you accomplished the top feat of college football.

My high school played for the Class A state championship back in the late 80s. They were beat in a tightly contested finals game against a perennial powerhouse. Both team's star running backs went on to run at UGA and go on to be all pros. Good football players. Good teams.

Could either of them have beaten AAAAA Valdosta High? A team that is essentially a college team playing at the high school level and has been for decades? Probably not. Does it objectively mean any less to play for the Class A state title than it does for the AAAAA state title? Do the fans care? Do the players? Do the coaches?

Does an FCS championship mean less than a random bowl game? That's objective. I will say that if Furman wins the FCS championship again, I'll be on cloud nine. Those people that say "well, its just the FCS" can go jump in a river for all I care.

[ASUMountaineer]

The thread isn't about App State but i'll go ahead and fall into your trap.

What about your statement was objective?


The Sun Belt may be a terrible conference, but for App State it is better than the SoCon.

Perfectly objective. This is backed up by the App State admin and the App State BOT.

You are right about one thing though...well, kind of. This thread isn't about App State, it was about Indiana State. You went back to your "the SBC is terrible" mantra, so I responded to that. I'm not sure why you're so concerned with the Sun Belt, but that's cool. xthumbsupx

[ASUMountaineer]

If the Sun Belt cares as much about rivalries and a regional focus, as they were shopping to Georgia Southern, they should snatch up Jacksonville State, one of the few FCS moveups that makes sense. Unfortunately it seems like politics are playing an outsized role, however.

I would assume that you feel the same way about the SoCon's South Carolina schools blackballing CCU?

Please note, that I'm ok with adding Jacksonville State if JMU and Mo. State are out of the question.

[Cocky]

If the Sun Belt cares as much about rivalries and a regional focus, as they were shopping to Georgia Southern, they should snatch up Jacksonville State, one of the few FCS moveups that makes sense. Unfortunately it seems like politics are playing an outsized role, however.

JSU is on an FCS island with limited chances at a true rivalry. EKU is the closest we have. UTC and Samford have pretty much said NO to any future games.

The SB is controlled by the Troy president so our receiving that invite will be because we are the only ones left. JSU needs to move up but I'm to the point of not really caring. This is even too much moving for me and I love change.

[ASUMountaineer]

My high school played for the Class A state championship back in the late 80s. They were beat in a tightly contested finals game against a perennial powerhouse. Both team's star running backs went on to run at UGA and go on to be all pros. Good football players. Good teams.

Could either of them have beaten AAAAA Valdosta High? A team that is essentially a college team playing at the high school level and has been for decades? Probably not. Does it objectively mean any less to play for the Class A state title than it does for the AAAAA state title? Do the fans care? Do the players? Do the coaches?

Does an FCS championship mean less than a random bowl game? That's objective. I will say that if Furman wins the FCS championship again, I'll be on cloud nine. Those people that say "well, its just the FCS" can go jump in a river for all I care.

I hear ya, and that's how it should be. I will feel the same way if/when App makes a bowl game and wins it. Who cares what other fans think?

[IBleedYellow]

I hear ya, and that's how it should be. I will feel the same way if/when App makes a bowl game and wins it. Who cares what other fans think?

Wait Wait Wait hold the presses. Rejoicing that your team won something is for the joy of the fans of the team?! Blasphemy! xlolx

[ASUMountaineer]

Wait Wait Wait hold the presses. Rejoicing that your team won something is for the joy of the fans of the team?! Blasphemy! xlolx

Shocking, I know. xlolx

[IBleedYellow]

Shocking, I know. xlolx

Someone needs to tell MplsBison this.

It's almost UND-logic the way he bashes the FCS, which we just won two years in a row.

[ASUMountaineer]

Someone needs to tell MplsBison this.

It's almost UND-logic the way he bashes the FCS, which we just won two years in a row.

Do you really think it would matter? xlolx

[IBleedYellow]

Do you really think it would matter? xlolx

Nah, just tell him to F off and go away.

[ASUMountaineer]

Nah, just tell him to F off and go away.

xoutofrepx

[walliver]

...
I believe, however, there is a day coming where ALL FBS conferences will have an avenue to the Top Championship in a 12 team playoff field with 8 conf champs (10 conf Champs , 6 autos with 4 playing-in for 2 spots to reach 8) and 4 At-Large berths. Those 12 will share a large pot of revenue (with 2 conferences mostly missing out because of the play-in), and the non-tournament teams will play in some meaningless bowls pre-christmas. * (To tip things further in favor of the large conferences it could even be 3 play-in games (6 playing-in; 4 autos, total of 7 champions in the field and 5 At-Large berths. in the scenario, the SEC, B1G, P12 & B12 would likely never play-in, but the other 6 conferences would battler to make the tournament)

The 12 Team Tournament Might Look Like: (5 At Large Model)
SEC Champ (1)
B1G Champ (1)
B12 Champ (1)
P12 Champ (1)
ACC Champ vs SBelt Champ (1) Play-In
MAC Champ vs MWC Champ (1) Play-In
AAC Champ vs CUSA Champ (1) Play-In
At Large 1 (1) SEC
At Large 2 (1) B1G
At Large 3 (1) B12
At Large 4 (1) SEC
At Large 5 (1) Notre Dame

...

You may really want this to happen but it isn't.
1) The #3 team in the SEC is usually better than all the Gang of 5. The SEC would want more than one at-large.
2) Allowing runner-ups from the Big 4 makes their conference championship games much less valuable
3) The Big Boys will never look at the SBC, MWC, AAC, MAC. and C-USA as peers.
4) The Gang of 5 schools are in the Gang of 5 because they have smaller fanbases, lower attendance, and lower budgets. Few, if any, have a sizable national following (other than the Academies).
5) The current system works for the SEC, B1G, B12, PAC and ACC. They have a shot at the 4 team field, but the rest of their teams still have a chance at playing around New Years in a respectable bowl game.
6) Underdog stories don't create revenue. They create animated conversations around the water cooler and on-line. The ideal matchup for TV is two extremely large flagship schools playing each other such as Texas and Ohio State. In fact, I suspect a semifinal game between those two would outdraw a National Championship game involving a Gang of 5 school.
7) There are powerful interests (including ESPN) involved with the current bowl system. They are not going to sit idly by while their current gravy train is watered down.
8) The upcoming 4 team playoff will have teams picked by a committee with no automatic bids because that is what the SEC wanted. There is no reason to think the the revenue from a Gang of 5 play-in games will be enough for the SEC to reconsider.

The bottom line is that it is the Big Boys Party and they don't want to invite second class participants. The Gang of 5 fans will need to be content with regular season football and an occasional bowl bid. Once a decade or so, the BCS-replacement may let a Boise State participate in their dance.

[HerdUp]

My high school played for the Class A state championship back in the late 80s. They were beat in a tightly contested finals game against a perennial powerhouse. Both team's star running backs went on to run at UGA and go on to be all pros. Good football players. Good teams.

Could either of them have beaten AAAAA Valdosta High? A team that is essentially a college team playing at the high school level and has been for decades? Probably not. Does it objectively mean any less to play for the Class A state title than it does for the AAAAA state title? Do the fans care? Do the players? Do the coaches?

Does an FCS championship mean less than a random bowl game? That's objective. I will say that if Furman wins the FCS championship again, I'll be on cloud nine. Those people that say "well, its just the FCS" can go jump in a river for all I care.

My point exactly on this subject and always has been. Play, compete and win at whatever level you decide to play in. In any sport. Weather its high school football, old man softball or dart league at the home town bar.

I'd like to see someone walk up to a Class A State Championship linebacker and tell him the isn't a "real" State Champ because he didn't play for Class AAAAA Team X... cause I think he'd deck ya

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You may really want this to happen but it isn't.
1) The #3 team in the SEC is usually better than all the Gang of 5. The SEC would want more than one at-large.
2) Allowing runner-ups from the Big 4 makes their conference championship games much less valuable
3) The Big Boys will never look at the SBC, MWC, AAC, MAC. and C-USA as peers.
4) The Gang of 5 schools are in the Gang of 5 because they have smaller fanbases, lower attendance, and lower budgets. Few, if any, have a sizable national following (other than the Academies).
5) The current system works for the SEC, B1G, B12, PAC and ACC. They have a shot at the 4 team field, but the rest of their teams still have a chance at playing around New Years in a respectable bowl game.
6) Underdog stories don't create revenue. They create animated conversations around the water cooler and on-line. The ideal matchup for TV is two extremely large flagship schools playing each other such as Texas and Ohio State. In fact, I suspect a semifinal game between those two would outdraw a National Championship game involving a Gang of 5 school.
7) There are powerful interests (including ESPN) involved with the current bowl system. They are not going to sit idly by while their current gravy train is watered down.
8) The upcoming 4 team playoff will have teams picked by a committee with no automatic bids because that is what the SEC wanted. There is no reason to think the the revenue from a Gang of 5 play-in games will be enough for the SEC to reconsider.

The bottom line is that it is the Big Boys Party and they don't want to invite second class participants. The Gang of 5 fans will need to be content with regular season football and an occasional bowl bid. Once a decade or so, the BCS-replacement may let a Boise State participate in their dance.

Which is why it has to be more than just about football. The AAC will be a pretty good football conference but a very good hoops league. The MWC the same. Even the MAC has some hoops pedigree.

All three of those leagues also have some academic clout. I'm not sure that goes for the new CUSA and SBC.

[Herder]

You may really want this to happen but it isn't.
1) The #3 team in the SEC is usually better than all the Gang of 5. The SEC would want more than one at-large.
2) Allowing runner-ups from the Big 4 makes their conference championship games much less valuable
3) The Big Boys will never look at the SBC, MWC, AAC, MAC. and C-USA as peers.
4) The Gang of 5 schools are in the Gang of 5 because they have smaller fanbases, lower attendance, and lower budgets. Few, if any, have a sizable national following (other than the Academies).
5) The current system works for the SEC, B1G, B12, PAC and ACC. They have a shot at the 4 team field, but the rest of their teams still have a chance at playing around New Years in a respectable bowl game.
6) Underdog stories don't create revenue. They create animated conversations around the water cooler and on-line. The ideal matchup for TV is two extremely large flagship schools playing each other such as Texas and Ohio State. In fact, I suspect a semifinal game between those two would outdraw a National Championship game involving a Gang of 5 school.
7) There are powerful interests (including ESPN) involved with the current bowl system. They are not going to sit idly by while their current gravy train is watered down.
8) The upcoming 4 team playoff will have teams picked by a committee with no automatic bids because that is what the SEC wanted. There is no reason to think the the revenue from a Gang of 5 play-in games will be enough for the SEC to reconsider.

The bottom line is that it is the Big Boys Party and they don't want to invite second class participants. The Gang of 5 fans will need to be content with regular season football and an occasional bowl bid. Once a decade or so, the BCS-replacement may let a Boise State participate in their dance.


Big Boys Party? Even with a 4 team playoff, it's and exclusive party that barely involves any of teams or confernces in the FBS. Heck the B1G isn't even involved today. A twelve team playoff (as I have structured it) would still put the money in the hands of the best conferences, but it would provide an avenue for all of FBS, and create interest. Can you imagine the national fan interest in what I am proposing? This would be a win-win for ALL of FBS, and would begin to level the recruiting field to provide more balance nationwide.

This 4 team playoff is the equivalent of a 16 team ncaa basketball tournament involving 4 conferences. It pales in comparison to the interest that would be generated if 12 teams were involved with all conferences being provided an avenue.

I suppose you think the FCS playoff should involve only 4 teams too? How about we just send the champs of the top 4 conferences based on the Sagarin ratings. Last year that would have been 1) Valley 2) SoCon 3) OVC 4) Big Sky, with the 5) Southland 6) CAA being out of the picture. Does that seem like a great idea to create fan interest to crown a champ?

[Saint3333]

A private equity manager called me today asking for some personal information. Not sure if I can swing, sounds a like a great opportunity I just need 10M to invest. But since he called me can I claim I turned him down?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Big Boys Party? Even with a 4 team playoff, it's and exclusive party that barely involves any of teams or confernces in the FBS. Heck the B1G isn't even involved today. A twelve team playoff (as I have structured it) would still put the money in the hands of the best conferences, but it would provide an avenue for all of FBS, and create interest. Can you imagine the national fan interest in what I am proposing? This would be a win-win for ALL of FBS, and would begin to level the recruiting field to provide more balance nationwide.

This 4 team playoff is the equivalent of a 16 team ncaa basketball tournament involving 4 conferences. It pales in comparison to the interest that would be generated if 12 teams were involved with all conferences being provided an avenue.

I suppose you think the FCS playoff should involve only 4 teams too? How about we just send the champs of the top 4 conferences based on the Sagarin ratings. Last year that would have been 1) Valley 2) SoCon 3) OVC 4) Big Sky, with the 5) Southland 6) CAA being out of the picture. Does that seem like a great idea to create fan interest to crown a champ?

Nobody's saying that the FCS should be structured like the BCS. But what you're missing is that all other championships, including the NCAA tournament, are run by the NCAA and have revenue shared by the NCAA (and the NCAA gets paid for those TV rights). The Bowl System is completely outside the system, with all the money going to the conferences (with most of that money going to the schools). Any added access they give would lessen their grip on the money.

[GAD]

Big Boys Party? Even with a 4 team playoff, it's and exclusive party that barely involves any of teams or confernces in the FBS. Heck the B1G isn't even involved today. A twelve team playoff (as I have structured it) would still put the money in the hands of the best conferences, but it would provide an avenue for all of FBS, and create interest. Can you imagine the national fan interest in what I am proposing? This would be a win-win for ALL of FBS, and would begin to level the recruiting field to provide more balance nationwide.

This 4 team playoff is the equivalent of a 16 team ncaa basketball tournament involving 4 conferences. It pales in comparison to the interest that would be generated if 12 teams were involved with all conferences being provided an avenue.

I suppose you think the FCS playoff should involve only 4 teams too? How about we just send the champs of the top 4 conferences based on the Sagarin ratings. Last year that would have been 1) Valley 2) SoCon 3) OVC 4) Big Sky, with the 5) Southland 6) CAA being out of the picture. Does that seem like a great idea to create fan interest to crown a champ?
The whole idea is to keep the small conferences out so the big 5 conferences can keep all the money for themselves. If they could get the smaller conferences out of the basketball tourney they would, here in Baton Rouge on the LSU centered sports talk radio shows they always discuss ways of getting rid of the smaller conferences

In FCS the tournament does make money anyway so its not an issue

[Laker]

A private equity manager called me today asking for some personal information. Not sure if I can swing, sounds a like a great opportunity I just need 10M to invest. But since he called me can I claim I turned him down?

You could always give him the personal information of another poster and claim that it is you. ;)

[Hammerhead]

This proposed scenario only has 1 Pac-12 team in the Playoffs. Last year both Oregon and Stanford were higher in the Sagarin Ratings than the best team in the B1G.




The 12 Team Tournament Might Look Like: (5 At Large Model)
SEC Champ (1)
B1G Champ (1)
B12 Champ (1)
P12 Champ (1)
ACC Champ vs SBelt Champ (1) Play-In
MAC Champ vs MWC Champ (1) Play-In
AAC Champ vs CUSA Champ (1) Play-In
At Large 1 (1) SEC
At Large 2 (1) B1G
At Large 3 (1) B12
At Large 4 (1) SEC
At Large 5 (1) Notre Dame

All 12 teams would be Seeded with a similar method to the BSC ranking system. Top 4 Seeds (which could include At-Larges) would have 1st round Bye. All teams not making the 12 team field would be eligible for a Bowl game. Round 1 & 2 at home of the Higher Seed; Round 3 Final Four Site. Round 4 NC Site. Money would be distributed between the conferences of the 12 teams making the field. Lose the play-in, no money.

Will it mean something to be FBS in the Sunbelt then when there is an avenue to a NC? Yes it will. Right Now? Still Tier 1, but with no avenue to a championship. You decide how beneficial that really is.

Is there urgency for FCS teams to get to an FBS conference like APP and GS seem to think there is? Could be . . . hard to say. If you believe (like I do) that a day is coming where all FBS conference have an avenue to the top championship, then the remaining FCS schools will be competing for only a few open spots and the price to move will be jacked up to the millions. If you believe that the lower confernces in FBS will never have access to the championship, then move at your own speed, and there is no hurry.

Why do I think a 12 team playoff is coming? Money & Meaning. A championship in this format will rival the NCAA basketball tournament, and generate a boatload of money. It will also provide an avenue for all, and will serve to lift up all of college football.

[Sycamore51]

I wonder if Indiana St would have tried to find a way to make the move happen if it had been the MAC that had sent the "feeler" out. To me it kind of seems like INST is making this SBC attention known publicly in hopes of seeing if the MAC will react in some way. Not for any time soon, but for when the next slot opens up. Kind of like a "we'll get our new stadium going and get the foundation poored for you" kind of thing.

[walliver]

...

I suppose you think the FCS playoff should involve only 4 teams too? How about we just send the champs of the top 4 conferences based on the Sagarin ratings. Last year that would have been 1) Valley 2) SoCon 3) OVC 4) Big Sky, with the 5) Southland 6) CAA being out of the picture. Does that seem like a great idea to create fan interest to crown a champ?

I think the FCS should go back to 16 teams with 8 autobids and 8 at-large, but that is neither here nor there..

There is not now, nor will there ever be, a NCAA FBS Championship involving the major conferences. The leadership at ASU and both GSU's know that.

Joining the SBC does not make a team a peer to Alabama, Michigan, Stanford, or Texas.

There is no national fan interest in Gang of 5 football. What was the general fan reaction to Northern Illinois' appearance in the BCS? Much of it was extremely negative.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

There is not now, nor will there ever be, a NCAA FBS Championship involving the major conferences.

Could have sworn the BCS conferences are meeting in Pasadena to discuss a new playoff format.

[/QUOTE]The leadership at ASU and both GSU's know that. Joining the SBC does not make a team a peer to Alabama, Michigan, Stanford, or Texas.[/QUOTE]

I've yet to hear the first App fan claim joining the SB will make ASU a peer to those programs. Those absurd comparisons come from mainly die hard FCS supporters who, for some reason, feel obligated to constantly degrade our move up. Why it is it perfectly fine for Wofford, Elon and other schools to move from D-II to D-I FCS, but not for anyone to move from FCS to FBS is beyond me.

[/QUOTE]There is no national fan interest in Gang of 5 football. What was the general fan reaction to Northern Illinois' appearance in the BCS? Much of it was extremely negative.[/QUOTE]

There is far more fan interest in "Gang of 5 football" than there will ever be in FCS. Other than the usual morons who think nobody outside the 6 power leagues should be in the major bowls, most of the reaction towards N Illinois' Orange Bowl shot was extremely positive.

[Thundar]

I wonder if Indiana St would have tried to find a way to make the move happen if it had been the MAC that had sent the "feeler" out. To me it kind of seems like INST is making this SBC attention known publicly in hopes of seeing if the MAC will react in some way. Not for any time soon, but for when the next slot opens up. Kind of like a "we'll get our new stadium going and get the foundation poored for you" kind of thing.


I think the SBC just asked a bunch hoping for a bunch of choices, much like a college kid and his resumes.

or the fat girl at speed dating

[Herder]

You may really want this to happen but it isn't.
1) The #3 team in the SEC is usually better than all the Gang of 5. The SEC would want more than one at-large.
2) Allowing runner-ups from the Big 4 makes their conference championship games much less valuable
3) The Big Boys will never look at the SBC, MWC, AAC, MAC. and C-USA as peers.
4) The Gang of 5 schools are in the Gang of 5 because they have smaller fanbases, lower attendance, and lower budgets. Few, if any, have a sizable national following (other than the Academies).
5) The current system works for the SEC, B1G, B12, PAC and ACC. They have a shot at the 4 team field, but the rest of their teams still have a chance at playing around New Years in a respectable bowl game.
6) Underdog stories don't create revenue. They create animated conversations around the water cooler and on-line. The ideal matchup for TV is two extremely large flagship schools playing each other such as Texas and Ohio State. In fact, I suspect a semifinal game between those two would outdraw a National Championship game involving a Gang of 5 school.
7) There are powerful interests (including ESPN) involved with the current bowl system. They are not going to sit idly by while their current gravy train is watered down.
8) The upcoming 4 team playoff will have teams picked by a committee with no automatic bids because that is what the SEC wanted. There is no reason to think the the revenue from a Gang of 5 play-in games will be enough for the SEC to reconsider.

The bottom line is that it is the Big Boys Party and they don't want to invite second class participants. The Gang of 5 fans will need to be content with regular season football and an occasional bowl bid. Once a decade or so, the BCS-replacement may let a Boise State participate in their dance.


If the best 5 At Large teams are all from the SEC (which they won't be), then they would be in the tournament.
With a 12 team playoff, you wouldn't play conf championshp games. Do you play championship games in a FCS playoff? NO
If the Champion came from the Top 4 seeds, they would only need to win 3 games to be champion, 1 more than a 4 team playoff.
They are stucturing Bowls into the current 4 team playoff, why couldn't they structure bowls into a 12 team playoff?
The bottom 5 conferences aren't going away, they have the same scholarship level. How can you just continue to lock them out? How is that good for college FB?
If 8 or 9 of 12 teams in a playoff are from the top conferences, how is that different (revenue sharing wise than today?
If a 4 team playoff can generate X dollars, then a 12 team playoff could generate X x Y dollars.
Providing an avenue (not auto berths) for the bottom five conferences will begin to balance football nationally, which is good for college FB.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the best 5 At Large teams are all from the SEC (which they won't be), then they would be in the tournament.
With a 12 team playoff, you wouldn't play conf championshp games. Do you play championship games in a FCS playoff? NO
If the Champion came from the Top 4 seeds, they would only need to win 3 games to be champion, 1 more than a 4 team playoff.
They are stucturing Bowls into the current 4 team playoff, why couldn't they structure bowls into a 12 team playoff?
The bottom 5 conferences aren't going away, they have the same scholarship level. How can you just continue to lock them out? How is that good for college FB?
If 8 or 9 of 12 teams in a playoff are from the top conferences, how is that different (revenue sharing wise than today?
If a 4 team playoff can generate X dollars, then a 12 team playoff could generate X x Y dollars.
Providing an avenue (not auto berths) for the bottom five conferences will begin to balance football nationally, which is good for college FB.

So, so much incorrect information here that betrays the fact that you just don't get it. But I'll start with: if the goal of a 12-team playoff is to do in conference championship games, that alone would sink the idea. Conference championships are huge money-makers for the conferences in their own right. Talk about robbing a huge source of revenue for the conference to pay for... what, exactly?

I'll also add that nothing about this whole process is being done for the "good of college football".

[Herder]

So, so much incorrect information here that betrays the fact that you just don't get it. But I'll start with: if the goal of a 12-team playoff is to do in conference championship games, that alone would sink the idea. Conference championships are huge money-makers for the conferences in their own right. Talk about robbing a huge source of revenue for the conference to pay for... what, exactly?

I'll also add that nothing about this whole process is being done for the "good of college football".

Why don't the CAA, VAlley, Big Sky and SoCon just have their own 4 team championship then and tell everyone else in FCS to take a hike? That is the equipvalent of what you are suggesting is best for FBS football.

You are the one that doesn't get it. A 12 team playoff could generate more revenue that could be structured to benefit the best conferences, while also providing an avenue for all conferences to be able to pursue the championship rather than 1/2 of the conferences and teams in FBS.

Instead let's have the top 4-5 conferences leave the ncaa . . . and destrong all college athletics, including DII & DIII, in their wake. That sounds like a great idea, doesn't it?

If the top conferences are going to form their own division, then whyare FCS schools clamoring to move FBS, just to be left in a 2nd level that isn't big enough to function without joining up with FCS schools, where they just came from. What is the urgency to move up for APP or GS, if indeed the top level is starting a new championship that they obviously would not be a part of?

Makes no sense, why to APP and GS think that have to move FBS immediately when everyone thinks that the top 5 conferencs will leave to start their own championship? Do you really think that a playoff between the MAC, MWC, SB, America and CUSA would be a championship with any meaning whatsoever? What a 45 team championship? Maybe Boise and N. IL will break off with 10 teams to form their own championship, be cause they dont want to associate with the Sunbelt? Lots of stupid stuff is happening.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Why don't the CAA, VAlley, Big Sky and SoCon just have their own 4 team championship then and tell everyone else in FCS to take a hike? That is the equipvalent of what you are suggesting is best for FBS football.

You are the one that doesn't get it. A 12 team playoff could generate more revenue that could be structured to benefit the best conferences, while also providing an avenue for all conferences to be able to pursue the championship rather than 1/2 of the conferences and teams in FBS.

Instead let's have the top 4-5 conferences leave the ncaa . . . and destrong all college athletics, including DII & DIII, in their wake. That sounds like a great idea, doesn't it?

If the top conferences are going to form their own division, then whyare FCS schools clamoring to move FBS, just to be left in a 2nd level that isn't big enough to function without joining up with FCS schools, where they just came from. What is the urgency to move up for APP or GS, if indeed the top level is starting a new championship that they obviously would not be a part of?

Makes no sense, why to APP and GS think that have to move FBS immediately when everyone thinks that the top 5 conferencs will leave to start their own championship? Do you really think that a playoff between the MAC, MWC, SB, America and CUSA would be a championship with any meaning whatsoever? What a 45 team championship? Maybe Boise and N. IL will break off with 10 teams to form their own championship, be cause they dont want to associate with the Sunbelt? Lots of stupid stuff is happening.

They already did, it was called the BCS. Notice how the NCAA trophys all look alike but the BCS trophy (and the College Football Playoff trophy) is that big crystal football? Because it is independent of the NCAA. It works with the NCAA, of course but these schools have so much money and are so well organized that they could easily break off in football.

[darell1976]

Can anyone guess a timeline until we see this break off as a reality? I am guessing within 10 years.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Can anyone guess a timeline until we see this break off as a reality? I am guessing within 10 years.

That's not too bad a guess, the big 5 are trying to all get to 16 teams.

[darell1976]

That's not too bad a guess, the big 5 are trying to all get to 16 teams.

I can see this happening in football, but basketball may be tougher as fans love the Cinderella teams.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I can see this happening in football, but basketball may be tougher as fans love the Cinderella teams.

This is all about football. Schools peel away additional sports all the time (hockey, wrestling, football, etc). There is nothing in any bylaws that states that schools have to participate in football UNO dropped it's football program, why couldn't a school just declassify it?.

[walliver]

Why don't the CAA, VAlley, Big Sky and SoCon just have their own 4 team championship then and tell everyone else in FCS to take a hike? That is the equipvalent of what you are suggesting is best for FBS football.

You are the one that doesn't get it. A 12 team playoff could generate more revenue that could be structured to benefit the best conferences, while also providing an avenue for all conferences to be able to pursue the championship rather than 1/2 of the conferences and teams in FBS.


What you describe would be a reasonable plan IF all FBS schools were equal, and money wasn't an issue.

My belief, and I believe it is supported by the evidence, is that there is a basic division in FBS between the Big 5 and the Little 5, and that money is important.

In FCS, there has long been an unwritten division between the competitive playoff conferences and the low scholarship conferences. 2013 will be the first year PFL teams have a spot. I worry that the FCS playoffs will be significantly diluted this year with 3 Top 10 teams excluded (ASU, GSU and ODU) with 4 more at-large teams added. Essentially 7 teams that wouldn't meet playoff standards in the past will be invited to the FCS playoffs. I suspect the FCS playoffs will lose a lot more money this year than in the past (lesser teams, lesser paid attendance). Adding all 5 Gang of 5 champions to a FBS playoff would have a similar effect).

Basically, I see no financial reason the Big 5 conferences would want to offer all 5 Gang of 5 conferences a bid. The smaller FBS schools are being paid a $1 million bribe to sit back and behave. If the Big Boys did want to go to a multiple team playoff, it would probably mean multiple bids for the Big 5 and a token bid for the gang of 5 "champion". Just as ASU and GSU fans have never viewed Davidson and Jacksonville as football peers, the Big 5 have never viewed Kent State and Arkansas State as their football peers.

[darell1976]

This is all about football. Schools peel away additional sports all the time (hockey, wrestling, football, etc). There is nothing in any bylaws that states that schools have to participate in football UNO dropped it's football program, why couldn't a school just declassify it?.

But if the "power conference" teams spilt from the NCAA would they still be under NCAA laws or would they create their own? If they aren't under NCAA laws then you have problems in the Olympic sports. Example if the Big Ten is no longer part of the NCAA they cannot participate in hockey or basketball. So I think they have to be careful if they split away from the NCAA not to split completely from them.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

But if the "power conference" teams spilt from the NCAA would they still be under NCAA laws or would they create their own? If they aren't under NCAA laws then you have problems in the Olympic sports. Example if the Big Ten is no longer part of the NCAA they cannot participate in hockey or basketball. So I think they have to be careful if they split away from the NCAA not to split completely from them.

This is a pretty good article.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2013/04/21/college-football-ncaa-split/2097115/

I think the one thing I forgot is these football schools negotiate their own TV deals and without the traditional NCAA playoffs, they aren't beholden to ESPN or any other specific network. That gives a huge amount of leverage to be independent in Football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lots of stupid stuff is happening.

+100000

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My belief, and I believe it is supported by the evidence, is that there is a basic division in FBS between the Big 5 and the Little 5, and that money is important.

I believe this to be true since the latest agreement codifies the "tiny gang of five" as needing the $1 million payouts from the power conferences. To me, they've essentially defined those teams into a different league.


In FCS, there has long been an unwritten division between the competitive playoff conferences and the low scholarship conferences. 2013 will be the first year PFL teams have a spot. I worry that the FCS playoffs will be significantly diluted this year with 3 Top 10 teams excluded (ASU, GSU and ODU) with 4 more at-large teams added. Essentially 7 teams that wouldn't meet playoff standards in the past will be invited to the FCS playoffs. I suspect the FCS playoffs will lose a lot more money this year than in the past (lesser teams, lesser paid attendance). Adding all 5 Gang of 5 champions to a FBS playoff would have a similar effect).

This thought that ODU, App State and Georgia Southern's departure will dilute the playoffs simply doesn't hold water. Marshall's departure didn't kill the playoffs. Boise State's didn't kill the playoffs. They didn't even kill the conferences they left, the SoCon and the Big Sky - both have multi-bids to the playoffs and national champions, and nobody argues that Georgia Southern's 1997 finals appearance and 1998 championship were illegitimate because Marshall left. Every time one of these schools have left, a New Hampshire, an Eastern Washington, or (dare I say) a Wofford has risen to take its place.

Similarly, people predicted the end of civilization when the "non-scholarship" Patriot League was invited to the playoffs. Two years later, Lehigh upset Richmond and gave eventual national champion UMass their toughest game of the playoffs. People were dragged kicking and screaming into a 20-team playoff. Last year, Wagner thrashed Colgate and gave Eastern Washington everything they could handle. Similarly, Coastal Carolina made a damned good run at ODU.


Basically, I see no financial reason the Big 5 conferences would want to offer all 5 Gang of 5 conferences a bid. The smaller FBS schools are being paid a $1 million bribe to sit back and behave. If the Big Boys did want to go to a multiple team playoff, it would probably mean multiple bids for the Big 5 and a token bid for the gang of 5 "champion". Just as ASU and GSU fans have never viewed Davidson and Jacksonville as football peers, the Big 5 have never viewed Kent State and Arkansas State as their football peers.

True.

[walliver]

...
This thought that ODU, App State and Georgia Southern's departure will dilute the playoffs simply doesn't hold water. Marshall's departure didn't kill the playoffs. Boise State's didn't kill the playoffs. They didn't even kill the conferences they left, the SoCon and the Big Sky - both have multi-bids to the playoffs and national champions, and nobody argues that Georgia Southern's 1997 finals appearance and 1998 championship were illegitimate because Marshall left.

...

My point is that 3 Top 10 teams are leaving at the same time, and 4 new playoff spots are being added.

Looking back at 2012, were there SEVEN deserving teams left out of the playoffs? I can only think of 2 or 3.

FCS will survive, and the playoffs will survive, but I believe that 24 teams is too many,

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My point is that 3 Top 10 teams are leaving at the same time, and 4 new playoff spots are being added.

Looking back at 2012, were there SEVEN deserving teams left out of the playoffs? I can only think of 2 or 3.

FCS will survive, and the playoffs will survive, but I believe that 24 teams is too many,

I dunno, a playoffs with Lehigh, Richmond, Towson, Northern Arizona, Drake, EKU, and UT Martin would have been pretty awesome to me.

Would Albany have made it?

Would Indiana State have made it? xlolx

[Bisonator]

My point is that 3 Top 10 teams are leaving at the same time, and 4 new playoff spots are being added.

Looking back at 2012, were there SEVEN deserving teams left out of the playoffs? I can only think of 2 or 3.

FCS will survive, and the playoffs will survive, but I believe that 24 teams is too many,

I don't know. I think the last couple years there should have been a couple more teams from the MVFC in the playoffs.

[Saint3333]

Walliver is 100% correct this this years playoff, simple math folks.

[asumike83]

Eventually, other programs will step up but if you don't think that taking 3 top 10-15 teams out of the playoffs and adding 4 more spots at the same time will make the 2013 playoff field weaker, your head is in the sand.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

I dunno, a playoffs with Lehigh, Richmond, Towson, Northern Arizona, Drake, EKU, and UT Martin would have been pretty awesome to me.

Would Albany have made it?

Would Indiana State have made it? xlolx

+1.

I used to think there weren't enough quality programs in the FCS to justify an increase in the number of playoff teams. Last year changed my mind in a very painful way.

[MarkyMark]

I am grateful the playoffs expanded to 20 teams in 2010 and allowed NDSU to get the last playoff spot. That playoff run in 2010 set us up for success in 2011 and 2012.

If its ecomically feasible why deny teams a chance to compete? Playoff games help programs get more practices, gametime experience and hopefully energizes the fanbase.

[walliver]

I am grateful the playoffs expanded to 20 teams in 2010 and allowed NDSU to get the last playoff spot. That playoff run in 2010 set us up for success in 2011 and 2012.

If its economically feasible why deny teams a chance to compete? Playoff games help programs get more practices, gametime experience and hopefully energizes the fanbase.

The FCS playoffs lose money. Going from 20 to 24 teams will most likely increase those losses.