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Danielr11220
March 20th, 2013, 01:47 PM
http://www.macon.com/2013/03/16/2398969/football-is-in-a-suns-future-how.html


By MICHAEL A. LOUGH — [email protected]

Before arriving at the basketball facility, most fans attending the A-Sun tournament last week at Mercer had to pass some construction of another athletics facility.

The Bears open play in the fall in the non-scholarship Pioneer Football League, and the new stadium and construction equipment were in the purview of any fans parking next to Claude Smith Field or in the Hilton Garden Inn lot.

Football was no doubt a topic during the tournament, considering that the A-Sun doesn’t sponsor football. One member is playing football, two more start this fall, one more has finally received state approval, and another appears on the verge of announcing the resumption of the sport.

And with college administrations open to moving their programs almost anywhere, the future of the A-Sun and football’s impact on it are on the table.

A-Sun commissioner Ted Gumbart is more than aware of all of that and has been for years. He talked about everything from lacrosse to football in a 90-minute sit down a week before the tournament.

Football, in one form or another, is part of the A-Sun’s future.

“We are not starting this exploration today,” Gumbart said. “It’s been ongoing, and I do feel like there’s progress being made. If in five years, there’ll be some changes, whether we’re in the football business or we’re part of a football operation or we’ve changed the way the Atlantic Sun operates, I think those are all logical outcomes.

“We’ve got to deal with that dynamic.”

Not long before the A-Sun tournament, Kennesaw State was approved by the University System of Georgia Board of Regents to begin play in 2015 after the regents affirmed the school’s studies and business plan.

The first kickoff is expected to come six years after Kennesaw State began publicly exploring the addition of football.

East Tennessee State dropped football in 2003 and had to leave the Southern Conference for the A-Sun because of that move.

Now, Appalachian State and Georgia Southern are awaiting seemingly inevitable invitations from the FBS Sun Belt Conference to join, which combined with non-football College of Charleston leaving after this athletics year for the Colonial Athletic Association puts the Southern Conference in something of a bind.

ETSU has mobilized in recent months toward reinstating football, with that official announcement expected in the next few weeks. And its fan base desperately wants to return to the Southern Conference, which has other options, including Kennesaw State, Virginia Military Institute and Mercer, to name a few.

Jacksonville plays non-scholarship football in the Pioneer Football League and will be joined this fall by Mercer and Stetson.

So with Kennesaw State officially adding football and ETSU ready to, half of the A-Sun’s membership will have football teams by the fall of 2015.

And then what?

“Without a crystal ball, I can’t make predictions,” Gumbart said. “But the issue of football and dealing with that as a sport is obviously a primary concern of a number of institutions, and we aim to address that and will explore a number of avenues that could provide the support that the Atlantic Sun needs in the sport of football.

“It’s clear that there’s interest and dynamics, and football will be a factor in our future. And we’re examining ways that we can address it.”

Football has been a topic on some level within the A-Sun for some time but has taken on concrete momentum in recent years, forcing the A-Sun to analyze some sort of football connection.

The A-Sun is already part of a consortium for swimming and both men’s and women’s lacrosse. Furman, High Point, Richmond and VMI are with Mercer and Jacksonville in men’s lacrosse. Jacksonville, Kennesaw State and Stetson have women’s lacrosse with Detroit and will be joined by Mercer.

And Gumbart is the executive director of the Coastal Collegiate Swimming Association, which includes teams from the A-Sun, Big South, Mid-Eastern and Southern conferences.

There are several sports conferences made up of teams that are based in other conferences, like the Eastern Wrestling League (mixing Division I and II programs) and East Atlantic Gymnastics League (with the ACC, Big East and Atlantic 10).

The Pioneer Football League is like that, with the programs representing the A-Sun, Big South, Southern, Atlantic 10, Missouri Valley, Metro Atlantic Athletic, Ohio Valley and Horizon conferences. And there are scores of situations in which a school is in one conference in one sport and in a home conference in all others.

So being part of something similar for football is an option.

“I think there are other models, as well,” Gumbart said.

For all of the models and possibilities Gumbart mentions, some sort of connection with the Big South appears logical. And any conversation wouldn’t be the first.

The Big South has had football since 2002, and its website notes, “After attempts to form a joint football conference with the Atlantic Sun Conference failed, the Big South began recruiting more members to join its fledgling football league. On May 23, 2001, the dream became a reality when the Big South’s Council of Chief Executive Officers voted unanimously to add football as the Conference’s 18th championship sport.”

Campbell helped start the Big South, left for the A-Sun and then returned to the Big South after reinstating football, which it plays in the Pioneer League. Gardner-Webb became a Division I athletics program in 2002-03 and was in the A-Sun from 2002-08 when it left for the Big South, where it competes in football.

Interim ETSU athletics director Richard Sander broached the subject in a Johnson City Press story before the A-Sun tournament began.

“I think they are looking into creating some sort of alliance with the Big South,” Sander said. “Both have football-playing members, and there’s probably some kind of alliance where the A-Sun and Big South can work together.”

The Big South loses New-York based Stony Brook (an America East member in all else) in June to the Colonial Athletic Association but gets New Jersey-based Monmouth (Northeast Conference) for football in 2014.

So the Big South is in flux a bit, as well, and there is a history of negotiation, or at least talk, with the A-Sun.

The Southern Conference is in something of a hurry to adjust to impending departures but also may expand before those announcements are made, which could mean patience regarding Kennesaw State’s startup and the apparently impending reinstatement at ETSU.

The A-Sun is working to strengthen its basketball competitiveness, which might have been underrated in recent years, and it is a top-12 baseball conference -- it was 10th last year, passing Southland (14th), Sun Belt (16th) and Ohio Valley (20th).

Nevertheless, Gumbart and the A-Sun have several options to consider, in conjunction with non-member schools and other conferences. But the conference and football becoming connected appears inevitable, once some dominoes actually fall.

“We’re trying to create options for ourselves just like schools are trying to create options for themselves,” Gumbart said, noting not just football as options for schools and conference. “But what is the best?

“The best is basketball rises, and football, everybody’s desires are accommodated without having to abandon your basketball aspirations.”

Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2013/03/16/2398969/football-is-in-a-suns-future-how.html#storylink=cpy

walliver
March 20th, 2013, 02:29 PM
The problem with football in the A-Sun, is that they are talking about a conference that mixes full scholarship and non-scholarship teams. This won't work.

Lehigh Football Nation
March 20th, 2013, 02:33 PM
Interim ETSU athletics director Richard Sander broached the subject in a Johnson City Press story before the A-Sun tournament began.

“I think they are looking into creating some sort of alliance with the Big South,” Sander said. “Both have football-playing members, and there’s probably some kind of alliance where the A-Sun and Big South can work together.”

Scholarship Football
Liberty (Big South)
VMI (Big South)
Charleston Southern (Big South)
Coastal Carolina (Big South)
Gardner-Webb (Big South)
Presbyterian (Big South)
Monmouth (MAAC, Big South Affiliate for football)

Non-Scholarship Football
Campbell (Big South)
Jacksonville (Atlantic Sun)
Mercer (Atlantic Sun, first season 2013)
Stetson (Atlantic Sun, first season 2013)

Starting or restarting either scholarship or non-scholarship football program
ETSU (rumored official announcement in a few weeks)
Kennesaw State (starting team in 2015)

Ordered feasibility study for football
Florida-Gulf Coast (Atlantic Sun)
North Florida (Atlantic Sun)

Some Interest But Never Got Out of the Rumor Stage
Northern Kentucky (Atlantic Sun)
High Point (Big South)

Club Football
Longwood (Big South)
Radford (Big South)

No football and no plans to look into it
Lipscomb (Atlantic Sun)
South Carolina-Upstate (Atlantic Sun)
UNC-Asheville (Big South)
Winthrop (Big South)


Interim ETSU athletics director Richard Sander broached the subject in a Johnson City Press story before the A-Sun tournament began.

“I think they are looking into creating some sort of alliance with the Big South,” Sander said. “Both have football-playing members, and there’s probably some kind of alliance where the A-Sun and Big South can work together.”

Hard to see what the alliance would entail. Campbell flipping from non-scholly to scholly? Northern Kentucky to start up a program? North Florida entering the fray? I have to believe the strategy involves Florida-Gulf Coast and/or North Florida to start up programs.

superman7515
March 20th, 2013, 03:01 PM
Florida Gulf Coast said no to football two years ago when their feasibility study said it could cost them up to almost $150 million to start a football team, not including the additional women's sports they would need to add, and would lose approx $5 million a year, every year, once it got started. They said it wasn't financially possible for them and would not have football any time in the foreseeable future.

Lehigh Football Nation
March 20th, 2013, 04:31 PM
Florida Gulf Coast said no to football two years ago when their feasibility study said it could cost them up to almost $150 million to start a football team, not including the additional women's sports they would need to add, and would lose approx $5 million a year, every year, once it got started. They said it wasn't financially possible for them and would not have football any time in the foreseeable future.

Obviously they used Georgia Southern's consulting company for the study. xlolx

superman7515
March 20th, 2013, 04:54 PM
Obviously they used Georgia Southern's consulting company for the study. xlolx

No, it was done by Bill Carr of CARR Sports Associates, a former All American football player who is obviously pro football, and who also was the athletic director of the University of Florida and University of Houston. His firm is the one who did the comprehensive strategic plan for NDSU to move to Division 1, which has obviously been an utter failure. Of course, he clearly knows nothing about college athletics as you can tell from the 50+ schools on his client list such as Texas, LSU, North Carolina, Duke, Oklahoma, Maryland, or even those smaller clients like James Madison, Montana State, Richmond, Butler, and the College Football Hall of Fame.

Lehigh Football Nation
March 20th, 2013, 05:25 PM
No, it was done by Bill Carr of CARR Sports Associates, a former All American football player who is obviously pro football, and who also was the athletic director of the University of Florida and University of Houston. His firm is the one who did the comprehensive strategic plan for NDSU to move to Division 1, which has obviously been an utter failure. Of course, he clearly knows nothing about college athletics as you can tell from the 50+ schools on his client list such as Texas, LSU, North Carolina, Duke, Oklahoma, Maryland, or even those smaller clients like James Madison, Montana State, Richmond, Butler, and the College Football Hall of Fame.

http://www.fgcu.edu/president/files/FGCU-FootballFeasibilityStudy-M011511.pdf


FCS Football would require the construction of the following facilities:

• A new 15,000 seat football stadium that is expandable to 30,000 seats
• A new football support building containing expanded locker rooms, sports medicine, coaches’ offices, and
team meeting rooms. Academic support and strength and conditioning would need to be expanded, however, required space could be included in a central Athletics facility.
• New practice fields, a minimum of 2; 1 natural turf field and 1 artificial turf field.

Willing to go on the record that FCS football requires a 15,000 seat stadium expandable to 30,000?

Leafing through the report actually offers some interesting insight. For example, one of the big challenges to FGCU starting football was "securing optimal FCS conference membership". If the Big South and Atlantic Sun enter some sort of "arrangement", suddenly this isn't a challenge anymore.


CSA concludes that FGCU’s most challenging transitional issue in adding FCS scholarship Football would be securing membership in a FCS Football conference.

He also dismisses PFL football out-of-hand saying a public school FGCU's size would not gain membership to that "private school conference". That it's a "private-school conference" probably comes as news to Morehead State.

While we're at it, his balance sheets showing a $2-4 million loss in transition years including Title IX scholarships (not sure where you got $5 million) show no increase in student fees as part of its revenue.

Oh yeah, then there's the boosters.

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2013/mar/06/griffin-donates-12500-for-first-fgcu-football/


FGCU President Wilson Bradshaw and Ben Hill Griffin III flirted with the idea of building a football stadium at FGCU’s Foundation meeting Wednesday morning. In front of about 40 faculty members and FGCU big-wigs, the two briefly discussed the scholarship.

Griffin told Bradshaw he may soon have his first football team.

“Now I just have to find the first football players,” Bradshaw said.

Ben Hill Griffin Stadium at the University of Florida, also known as The Swamp, was named after Griffin III’s father, a longtime UF benefactor.

“Why wait? Let’s get started,” Griffin told the Daily News on Wednesday.

“Webber College International has a football team, and they don’t have 2,000 students. We have 13,000 students, heading to 15,000. We don’t have to have a football stadium to start with. There’s plenty of football stadiums around to start with.

Point being that the FGCU feasibility study that's not as against football as you might suppose, the interesting comments from the A-Sun people, and this alumni stuff leads one to believe that FGCU might be thinking about football.

superman7515
March 20th, 2013, 07:05 PM
Sorry, but trying to "quote" you with multiple quotes inside just wasn't working out, so I'll just rebut as possible.

1) Even with the 15,000 seat stadium selling out 7 home games a year, they would lose almost $5 million a year. Fewer seats is only going to increase the yearly losses that would be offset by ticket sales, and with FCS stadiums across the country expanding, building something that was not expandable would be a dereliction of the athletic departments duty to the programs future.

2) The Big South/Atlantic Sun arrangement would not be an "optimal FCS conference" if people, such as yourself, are making the argument that it's hard to see how the whole thing would even work.

3) He should dismiss the PFL out-of-hand if they are looking for an "optimal FCS conference" and as for the private school conference comment, the CIAA is a HBCU conference, Chowan (a PWC) joined the CIAA, does that cease to make it a HBCU conference when 11 of 12 members are HBCU's? Not at all. So 1 out of 10 schools in the conference being a public college hardly precludes it being described as a private school conference.

4) Where did I get the "approx $5 million" figure? How about the article you quoted as a good source (ya know, the one where they need over $100 million but the "boosters" have managed to donate $12,500 to endow one scholarship plus a promise of another $1,000 to come) where it states the program will operate at a $4.8 million a year loss. $4.8 million vs "approx $5 million" is pretty well in the ballpark.

5) I'm sure the alumni are for football and I never said the study was against it, I said the President said they can't afford it. Unless he comes out saying they found a lot of money or he has just generally changed their mind, I wouldn't expect it anytime this decade.

MplsBison
March 20th, 2013, 07:11 PM
If I've learned anything from watching House of Lie$, it's that consulting is the job of getting paid to tell people what they want to hear.

I have no doubt that Carr's study of NDSU's division I feasibility was tilted towards moving up to DI while the study of FGSU's football feasibility was tilted against football.

Babar
March 21st, 2013, 09:21 PM
1) Even with the 15,000 seat stadium selling out 7 home games a year, they would lose almost $5 million a year. Fewer seats is only going to increase the yearly losses that would be offset by ticket sales, and with FCS stadiums across the country expanding, building something that was not expandable would be a dereliction of the athletic departments duty to the programs future.


I think the one piece of data that points toward the feasibility of football at FGCU is their growth rate: there are colleges that grow like weeds and then there's FGCU. They've probably grown 800% in the last 15 years.

Their alumni were literally nonexistent a short time ago. Soon there will be tens of thousands. And from what I know of their faculty hires, there really is no hard and fast reason they couldn't fit in with a "private school league," though you're right that the Pioneer Football League would be a poor fit.

superman7515
March 21st, 2013, 09:24 PM
Yeah, growing from no school to about 13,000 students on a 760 acre campus w/ D1 athletics in 20 years is pretty strong growth.

Saint3333
March 21st, 2013, 11:22 PM
How many schools have added football in the last 10 years in which their long-term goal has been FCS football?

CID1990
March 21st, 2013, 11:38 PM
How many schools have added football in the last 10 years in which their long-term goal has been FCS football?

Most schools I've seen adding football recently are large metro schools like GSU, or Charlotte for this year.

That said, I don't think Mercer, Kennesaw St, ETSU or Jacksonville U or Weber Intl have aspirations to a higher level.


Sent from the center of the universe.

MplsBison
March 22nd, 2013, 11:37 AM
How many schools have added football in the last 10 years in which their long-term goal has been FCS football?

That question is better stated as: "how many schools want to pay for FBS football without getting any of the benefit of being FBS??"

Lehigh Football Nation
March 22nd, 2013, 11:51 AM
That said, I don't think Mercer, Kennesaw St, ETSU or Jacksonville U or Weber Intl have aspirations to a higher level.

Or Campbell, who started up in 2009. Or Stetson, who starts this year. Or for that matter Monmouth, Sacred Heart or Robert Morris, who started 15-20 years ago.

MplsBison
March 22nd, 2013, 03:37 PM
Or Campbell, who started up in 2009. Or Stetson, who starts this year. Or for that matter Monmouth, Sacred Heart or Robert Morris, who started 15-20 years ago.

Right...and those schools (wisely) also have no intention of paying for full-cost FCS football.

And why should they? The NCAA says you can pay as little money as you want and still have a "varsity" team at the FCS level.

BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n
March 22nd, 2013, 04:04 PM
No football and no plans to look into it
Lipscomb (Atlantic Sun)
South Carolina-Upstate (Atlantic Sun)
UNC-Asheville (Big South)
Winthrop (Big South)



That's interesting considering Lipscomb has on its campus a high school with a successful football program. If Lipscomb can have a successful high school football program, they can put together a D1 FB program.

Saint3333
March 22nd, 2013, 05:01 PM
So the answer is zero schools that fully fund at the FCS level.

CID1990
March 22nd, 2013, 07:08 PM
So the answer is zero schools that fully fund at the FCS level.

Nobody is going to engage you when you are trolling for an argument over whether or not any school would actually aspire to the FCS level.


Sent from the center of the universe.

Lehigh Football Nation
March 22nd, 2013, 10:09 PM
Florida Gulf Coast said no to football two years ago when their feasibility study said it could cost them up to almost $150 million to start a football team, not including the additional women's sports they would need to add, and would lose approx $5 million a year, every year, once it got started. They said it wasn't financially possible for them and would not have football any time in the foreseeable future.

Avatar bet they have football in 5 years. The NCAA win clinches it. Even if their long-term goal isn't, um, the Atlantic Sun.

Laker
March 22nd, 2013, 10:13 PM
Avatar bet they have football in 5 years. The NCAA win clinches it. Even if their long-term goal isn't, um, the Atlantic Sun.

I remember George Mason talked about adding football after they made their Final Four appearance. But I haven't heard any more about it since.

superman7515
March 22nd, 2013, 11:33 PM
I remember George Mason talked about adding football after they made their Final Four appearance. But I haven't heard any more about it since.

The same company that did the study for Florida Gulf Coast and told them no, did the study for George Mason and told them no.

superman7515
March 22nd, 2013, 11:35 PM
Avatar bet they have football in 5 years. The NCAA win clinches it. Even if their long-term goal isn't, um, the Atlantic Sun.

If we're still around, it's a deal. Gotta be a little clearer though, are we talking NCAA football or is some co-ed club team going to suffice?

JUFan
March 22nd, 2013, 11:57 PM
Most schools I've seen adding football recently are large metro schools like GSU, or Charlotte for this year.

That said, I don't think Mercer, Kennesaw St, ETSU or Jacksonville U or Weber Intl have aspirations to a higher level.


Sent from the center of the universe.



JU has a goal of rasing 85 million for campus improvement and growing the school. They have over 40 million already raised and plan to have the other 40+ in three years. Not bad for a private university with an annual enrollment of 4000.

Of that:
$26 million for improving athletics, student activities and the campus physical space.

http://jacksonville.com/sports/college/2012-11-30/story/jacksonville-university-plans-new-football-stadium-athletics
They are dropping over $4 million into the first phase of stadium upgrades. Phase II & III costs are unknown right now.

2011-2012 football attendance at the current crap field (I refuse to call it a stadium) drew over 3600 a game. That would be equal to the 4th biggest in the SoCon.
Not bad for non-scholarship and no real football stadium.

http://jacksonville.com/content/jacksonville-universitys-new-football-stadium
The new stadium design is for 4500 seats, a true press area and more.

The new AD is Brad Edwards. He played 8 seasons in the NFL, and was the Senior Associate Athletic Director at South Carolina. I think he knows football and has way more experience than a non-scholarship football school would need unless bigger things were going to happen.

But most revealing? In an interview 3 years ago:
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_college_uf/2010/01/urban-meyer-and-kerwin-bell-once-talked-about-gators-coaching-position.html

“I’ve had some opportunities, but I really like our president and our AD and where we’re headed,” Bell said. “Our next step is to hopefully get it to a scholarship level, build our stadium. If we do that, we can really have a niche in Florida as a I-AA powerhouse.”
The stadium is coming, when do the scholarships start?


A better tidbit:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-02-24/story/unf-look-adding-football-points-hidden-windfalls-first-coast-small

JU announced plans in December for an overhaul of its stadium, a $4.5 million first phase that would include new stands to hold about 4,500 fans for football, track events and lacrosse. That capacity could expand to as high as 11,000 in subsequent phases.

CID1990
March 23rd, 2013, 01:12 AM
JU has a goal of rasing 85 million for campus improvement and growing the school. They have over 40 million already raised and plan to have the other 40+ in three years. Not bad for a private university with an annual enrollment of 4000.

Of that:
$26 million for improving athletics, student activities and the campus physical space.

http://jacksonville.com/sports/college/2012-11-30/story/jacksonville-university-plans-new-football-stadium-athletics
They are dropping over $4 million into the first phase of stadium upgrades. Phase II & III costs are unknown right now.

2011-2012 football attendance at the current crap field (I refuse to call it a stadium) drew over 3600 a game. That would be equal to the 4th biggest in the SoCon.
Not bad for non-scholarship and no real football stadium.

http://jacksonville.com/content/jacksonville-universitys-new-football-stadium
The new stadium design is for 4500 seats, a true press area and more.

The new AD is Brad Edwards. He played 8 seasons in the NFL, and was the Senior Associate Athletic Director at South Carolina. I think he knows football and has way more experience than a non-scholarship football school would need unless bigger things were going to happen.

But most revealing? In an interview 3 years ago:
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_college_uf/2010/01/urban-meyer-and-kerwin-bell-once-talked-about-gators-coaching-position.html

The stadium is coming, when do the scholarships start?


A better tidbit:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-02-24/story/unf-look-adding-football-points-hidden-windfalls-first-coast-small

Good for JU. Maybe you can join the Sun Belt too.


Sent from the center of the universe.

walliver
March 23rd, 2013, 08:56 AM
...

2011-2012 football attendance at the current crap field (I refuse to call it a stadium) drew over 3600 a game. That would be equal to the 4th biggest in the SoCon.
Not bad for non-scholarship and no real football stadium.

...



Which numbers are you using? JU at 3638 average in 2011 would come in dead last in the SoCon, well behind #8 Samford at 6831 and #9 WCU at 6610. Were you looking at some other number such as %capacity? (I couldn't find the 2012 numbers on the NCAA site.

source: http://i.turner.ncaa.com/dr/ncaa/ncaa/release/sites/default/files/files/2011+Football+Attendance.pdf

To be honest, I wouldn't mind JU in the SoCon IF there was a commitment to fund football, at least to "counter" status. Attendance less than 4000 though would keep you at Big South level.

UAalum72
March 23rd, 2013, 09:33 AM
The same company that did the study for Florida Gulf Coast and told them no, did the study for George Mason and told them no.This has all the earmarks of a whispered 'We don't really want football, so we'll hire you to do the study if you can come up with numbers that show football's too expensive so we can shut these fans up'.

superman7515
March 23rd, 2013, 07:36 PM
I dunno, they worked with UTSA, USA, Southeastern Louisiana, Florida International, and Troy State and told all of them yes; so they aren't in the business of only saying no, you can't do that.

Lehigh Football Nation
March 23rd, 2013, 08:43 PM
I dunno, they worked with UTSA, USA, Southeastern Louisiana, Florida International, and Troy State and told all of them yes; so they aren't in the business of only saying no, you can't do that.

They could be in the construction business. Really, a 15,000 stadium expandable to 30,000 is required to play FCS ball?

UAalum72
March 23rd, 2013, 09:34 PM
I dunno, they worked with UTSA, USA, Southeastern Louisiana, Florida International, and Troy State and told all of them yes; so they aren't in the business of only saying no, you can't do that.
That's what I meant; they're in the business of giving the president the answer he wants to hear.