Does Wagner count toward FBS bowl eligibility?

[zibby]

Rumor has it Wagner will play Syracuse on 9/14.

I thought NEC teams and others who don't offer at least 56 scholarships don't count toward bowl eligibility.

[danefan]

Rumor has it Wagner will play Syracuse on 9/14.

I thought NEC teams and others who don't offer at least 56 scholarships don't count toward bowl eligibility.

They do not. Thy also played at FAU this year.

It may be Syracuse's 2nd FCS in which case it won't count even if they were a counter (assuming the new rules don't apply when there isn't enough teams to fill bowl slots).

[zibby]

It's not a second FCS. Syracuse's other OOC games are Penn State, Northwestern and Tulane.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Odd they would pick Wagner when Villanova has an open date on 9/14 and Pitt reportedly wanting a reschedule of their game to play Florida State on Labor Day weekend. Seems almost too easy to slide Pitt off the schedule until next year and slide Syracuse in.

And as long as we're floating former Big East conferencemates whom they probably hate, Georgetown is also open on 9/14. They're no more of a counter than Wagner is.

[DFW HOYA]

And as long as we're floating former Big East conferencemates whom they probably hate, Georgetown is also open on 9/14. They're no more of a counter than Wagner is.

They would sell more tickets than a game with Wagner. Besides, with 35,000 coming to Saturday's basketball game, most would come back in the fall for sheer revenge.

(But why do I get the feeling Georgetown's three TBA opponents aren't very good?)

[aceinthehole]

Give Wagner a ton of credit for getting this game as a non-counter! This will be the NEC's 3rd game vs. FBS opponents, and the first vs. a BCS team (all were non-counters).

2007 - Central Connecticut @ Western Michigan
2012 - Wagner @ Florida Atlantic
2013 - Wagner @ Syracuse

[Go Green]

(But why do I get the feeling Georgetown's three TBA opponents aren't very good?)

You play Brown and Princeton in September. Both should be decent Ivy teams, if not dark horses.

[M Ruler]

Give Wagner a ton of credit for getting this game as a non-counter! This will be the NEC's 3rd game vs. FBS opponents, and the first vs. a BCS team (all were non-counters).

2007 - Central Connecticut @ Western Michigan
2012 - Wagner @ Florida Atlantic
2013 - Wagner @ Syracuse

I give Hamline credit but this could be very ugly by halftime. Its one thing to play FAU and quite another to play an ever improving FBS squad.

I imagine they are getting a decent payday but this has 60-0 written all over it.

I dont like when these kinds of mismatches are set up. I am pretty sure the fans dont like it either. A few years ago Albany was to play Cincinnatti and thankfully someone came to their senses and cancelled the game.

[UAalum72]

I dont like when these kinds of mismatches are set up. I am pretty sure the fans dont like it either. A few years ago Albany was to play Cincinnatti and thankfully someone came to their senses and cancelled the game.
Must have been us. Cincy ended up playing Austin Peay. 72-10

[CFBfan]

I give Hamline credit but this could be very ugly by halftime. Its one thing to play FAU and quite another to play an ever improving FBS squad.

I imagine they are getting a decent payday but this has 60-0 written all over it.

I dont like when these kinds of mismatches are set up. I am pretty sure the fans dont like it either. A few years ago Albany was to play Cincinnatti and thankfully someone came to their senses and cancelled the game.

Colgate played them 2 years ago and although they lost 41 - 7 (I think) they by no means were embarassed and with their coaching staff just turned over why can't Wagner give them a game??

[busybee14]

Stonybrook played them tough last year,28-17.Very respectable.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nova is no longer in the way of Pitt/Florida State.

http://triblive.com/sports/college/pitt/3539595-74/pitt-game-acc#axzz2LkwqCHc9


The way has been cleared for Pitt to play its first ACC football game Labor Day night Sept. 2 against Florida State at Heinz Field, and the conference will make an official announcement Monday, a high-ranking college football source said Saturday.

The game will be televised by ESPN.

Pitt was scheduled to play Villanova on Aug. 31, but that game has been canceled.

Villanova has scheduled another game against an FBS opponent to replace Pitt this season. Florida State and Pitt officials declined comment, and an ACC official did not respond to phone calls and an email for comment.

With so few openings left, I think the FBS game in question might be Syracuse on 9/14. Which would elbow Wagner out of the picture if true.

[CFBfan]

doesn't that have it's own thread lfn?

[M Ruler]

Stonybrook played them tough last year,28-17.Very respectable.

Big difference between 63 scholarships (SBU) and 30 something schollies (Wagner). It will not be a close game. If you were playing a lesser opponent (ARMY) I would feel differently. Good luck with the Orangeman. I just think it will be a big mismatch. Wagner needs to build on their recent success and this will be a punch in the gut.

I like where Wagner is headed in the NEC. With Albany gone I can see them dominating year in and year out.

But I worry about Wagner (or any team with less than 57 scholarships) playing Syracuse or better. I know CCSU played Western Michigan and it really wasnt close.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wagner at Syracuse is a go. Congratulations to Walt Hameline for bringing this together.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/acc/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/13accfbschedule.pdf

[aceinthehole]

Absolutely fantastic get by Hameline and Wagner, but I agree with MRuler and others.

This game is a very tall order for most FCS teams, especially a team with less than 40 scholarships. Although Wagner handled themselves way better than expected vs. FAU last year, but this is a whole new ball of wax. This could get very ugly for the Seahawks, but this is a great experience for the team. Playing a game in the Dome is something they will look forward to and won’t forget. I don't see the Orange running up the score into the 80s, but I expect a 63-7 beating or something along those lines.

In any case, great game for Wagner and the NEC. I like it!

[CFBfan]

Absolutely fantastic get by Hameline and Wagner, but I agree with MRuler and others.

This game is a very tall order for most FCS teams, especially a team with less than 40 scholarships. Although Wagner handled themselves way better than expected vs. FAU last year, but this is a whole new ball of wax. This could get very ugly for the Seahawks, but this is a great experience for the team. Playing a game in the Dome is something they will look forward to and won’t forget. I don't see the Orange running up the score into the 80s, but I expect a 63-7 beating or something along those lines.

In any case, great game for Wagner and the NEC. I like it!

regardless it's a nice payday for wagner

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Marrone really built up the talent level at Syracuse. The Orange program is on the up swing even though he left for the bills.

This game is going to be ugly.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Apparently, the schedule-maker for Syracuse has told people that the Wagner game will count towards bowl eligibility. I'm not sure how that is possible.

[danefan]

Apparently, the schedule-maker for Syracuse has told people that the Wagner game will count towards bowl eligibility. I'm not sure how that is possible.

The only way its a counter game is if they got some kind of waiver

[DFW HOYA]

The only way its a counter game is if they got some kind of waiver

Or, if Wagner has 40 on scholarship and 17 or more on equivalency aid.

[danefan]

Or, if Wagner has 40 on scholarship and 17 or more on equivalency aid.

Against NEC rules. The 40 limit includes equivalency aid and scholarships.

[UAalum72]

Apparently Wagner told Syracuse they count, and that's good enough for the SU AD
Syracuse Post-Standard (http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2013/02/syracuse_wagner_told_us_game_c.html#incart_river)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Apparently Wagner told Syracuse they count, and that's good enough for the SU AD
Syracuse Post-Standard (http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2013/02/syracuse_wagner_told_us_game_c.html#incart_river)

Syracuse's AD is shockingly uninformed. Sigh... This is why I was so dubious about the game happening, not that Wagner is no good, but because they're not considered a counter.

One year recently Syracuse scheduled two FCS in the same year, Maine and Colgate, Both were "counters" but only one win counted towards bowl eligibility as you are only permitted to count one as per NCAA rules.

But this doesn't reflect well on Wagner either way.

[aceinthehole]

Syracuse's AD is shockingly uninformed. Sigh... This is why I was so dubious about the game happening, not that Wagner is no good, but because they're not considered a counter.

One year recently Syracuse scheduled two FCS in the same year, Maine and Colgate, Both were "counters" but only one win counted towards bowl eligibility as you are only permitted to count one as per NCAA rules.

But this doesn't reflect well on Wagner either way.

How do you figue that? If the Syracuse AD who runs a departments with a budget 4x as large as Wagner, doesn't know how to verify this kind of information with the NCAA then he is an idiot. No one on his staff knew to follow up? Evceryone on this board knew Wagner wasn't a counter, so why didn't 'Cuse? Syracuse looks like the fools here, despite whatever was asserted by Wagner about their bowl-counter status. No one in the media dared ask the 'Cuse AD before this game was announced?

As you point out, 'Cuse has scheduled non-couter games before by default (2 FCS games in the same season), so who know what they were really thinking.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How do you figue that? If the Syracuse AD who runs a departments with a budget 4x as large as Wagner, doesn't know how to verify this kind of information with the NCAA then he is an idiot. No one on his staff knew to follow up? Evceryone on this board knew Wagner wasn't a counter, so why didn't 'Cuse? Syracuse looks like the fools here, despite whatever was asserted by Wagner about their bowl-counter status. No one in the media dared ask the 'Cuse AD before this game was announced?

As you point out, 'Cuse has scheduled non-couter games before by default (2 FCS games in the same season), so who know what they were really thinking.

Headline:
Syracuse: Wagner told us game counts toward bowl eligibility

[danefan]

I don't think Wagner is technically incorrect in saying that.

There is a new rule this year (I think this year) that allows for non-counter teams to count for bowl eligibility, but only if a number of factors are met related to the number of FBS teams with .500 or better records ready for bowl placement.

[JMG1MON]

When Monmouth announced its move to the Big South, our beat reporter for the local paper wrote on his blog he thinks Wagner is at the 57 limit to qualify as a counter. I didn't bother asking how that's possible but that's what he wrote. It makes no sense but anything is possible I presume.

[PAllen]

When Monmouth announced its move to the Big South, our beat reporter for the local paper wrote on his blog he thinks Wagner is at the 57 limit to qualify as a counter. I didn't bother asking how that's possible but that's what he wrote. It makes no sense but anything is possible I presume.

Pure speculation, but if they are, what is the NEC going to do about it at this point? Piss them off and make them want to move to the Big South with Monmouth?

[CFBfan]

When Monmouth announced its move to the Big South, our beat reporter for the local paper wrote on his blog he thinks Wagner is at the 57 limit to qualify as a counter. I didn't bother asking how that's possible but that's what he wrote. It makes no sense but anything is possible I presume.

If not good luck trying to ever book another FBS to make some $$$$.......

[CFBfan]

Against NEC rules. The 40 limit includes equivalency aid and scholarships.

dane, this says otherwise: http://www.voy.com/214207/2325.html

if correct Wagner IS a counter.......

[aceinthehole]

Have you read the comments from 'Cuse fans in that article. Most agree that this falls on the Syracuse AD, not Wagner.


jimotab
Hey Herman -- are you kidding me???

Why would you ask them-- you should know or ask somebody in authority.


dartime
SU's AD is not competent. They probably aren't going anywhere anyway but that is not the point.


44istaken
According to Gross,scheduling a 12th game isn't rocket science.True,very true.But,kind of a strange statement coming from the guy who held up the ACC schedule. Does the game count,Wagner says it does.What kind of answer is that?


Ditkacuse55
Ooooooooh okay, if Wagner says so. How about checking with the NCAA first?

What a joke SU is.


cuseinchina99
This Wagner thing is somewhat upsetting especially when Old Dominion was available and just went to Pitt. I mean if it counts then fine, whatever, it's an easy win. But if it turns out it doesn't count, the due diligence on this was disgustingly bad. The response from the guy in charge of scheduling is that we asked the other team and they said it would count. Ummmmm what about consulting the NCAA, what about getting ACC officials to make sure?? I rarely post anything negative on here, but if this game doesn't count (and per the rules it may not) - than this was very sloppily done and someone needs to look for a new job. Regardless, the answer given by the person responsible is not nearly good enough.

[blackbeard]

dane, this says otherwise: http://www.voy.com/214207/2325.html

if correct Wagner IS a counter.......

I think page 165 of the Conference By-Laws agrees with CFBfan: http://www.northeastconference.org/Pdfs/general/2009/11/2/2009-10%20Policy%20Manual.pdf

[aceinthehole]

All NEC football playing institutions are permitted to award a maximum financial aid amount of 32
full athletic grants-in-aid on an equivalency basis. Beginning in 2009-10, grants-in-aid may be
increased by no more than two per year, capping at 40. There would continue to be no scholarship
minimum.

I read that as a 40-scholly/equiv limit, and that is a non-counter team.

Any other aid that is available to non-student-athletes as well, would not be counted as scholly/equiv. So how does an NEC team get to 60?

[CFBfan]

I read that as a 40-scholly/equiv limit, and that is a non-counter team.

Any other aid that is available to non-student-athletes as well, would not be counted as scholly/equiv. So how does an NEC team get to 60?

Currently, the NEC limits the number of athletic scholarships in football to 34 scholarships in an equivalency approach (i.e., the 34 scholarships can be divided among an unlimited number of football student-athletes). We are trending up to a limit of 40 by 2013. The scholarship limit applies to athletically related aid only. Institutions are permitted to provide a combination of athletic aid and need based aid/merit aid up to the FCS limit of 63 equivalencies.

[danefan]

I read that as a 40-scholly/equiv limit, and that is a non-counter team.

Any other aid that is available to non-student-athletes as well, would not be counted as scholly/equiv. So how does an NEC team get to 60?

I read it the same way.

Maybe a difference in how the NEC defines equivalency vs how the NCAA does for counter purposes?

I thought it was pretty clear to the people in Albany there was no way for us to be a counter in the NEC.

Maybe Wagner has figured out a loophole? More power to them if they have.

[aceinthehole]

I read it the same way.

Maybe a difference in how the NEC defines equivalency vs how the NCAA does for counter purposes?

I thought it was pretty clear to the people in Albany there was no way for us to be a counter in the NEC.

Maybe Wagner has figured out a loophole? More power to them if they have.

Again, we agree xthumbsupx

I'd still like to see the NEC lift the limit to 60 so we can be more competative in FCS, but if NCAA says that NEC teams can be a "bowl counter" by a mix of schollys/equivs and other aid, that's OK with me because I'd like to see CCSU schedule an annual FBS payday.

[Dane96]

Currently, the NEC limits the number of athletic scholarships in football to 34 scholarships in an equivalency approach (i.e., the 34 scholarships can be divided among an unlimited number of football student-athletes). We are trending up to a limit of 40 by 2013. The scholarship limit applies to athletically related aid only. Institutions are permitted to provide a combination of athletic aid and need based aid/merit aid up to the FCS limit of 63 equivalencies.

This is INCORRECT.

All aid counts against the 63 maximum limit. This part you have correct. However, the NEC has set a cap limit at 40 including ALL TYPES OF AID. Where it gets dicey is two sport aid...however the NCAA does not currently allow for two-sport counter; it's one or the other.

For Wagner to be officially at COUNTER STATUS, they would have to be cheating the NEC rules...not NCAA rules.

[Dane96]

I read it the same way.

Maybe a difference in how the NEC defines equivalency vs how the NCAA does for counter purposes?

I thought it was pretty clear to the people in Albany there was no way for us to be a counter in the NEC.

Maybe Wagner has figured out a loophole? More power to them if they have.

It's called cheating until they get caught. IF Wagner has been putting kids on AID guised as "merit" and this student didn't meet the same requirements as the rest of the merit based student body receiving the same aid...then they have been flat out cheating. I highly doubt that out of all the merit aid in the school, Walt Hamline was able to find 23 Student-Athletes who met the merit aid requirement...and the school said, "Sure, let's put all a huge chunk of our yearly merit aid into athletes". Makes zero sense as to how most schools disperse merit aid.

If this was any other financial aid...then it isn't a loophole...but cheating.

Walt Hamline is not known to cheat...hence I don't believe they are a counter....and I don't believe Walt told them they were a counter.

[Dane96]

And to be clear...the NCAA considers ALL AID to count against Athletic Aid: e.g. any combination of athletic or "institutional" aid.

[CFBfan]

so this is taken from the link attached i above:

I recently e-mailed the Commissioner of the NEC, Noreen Morris, regarding the number of athletic scholarships that are permitted for football and how many athletic scholarships each college grants. Here are my questions and Commissioner Morris' responses:

1. What is the maximum number of athletic scholarships that the NEC permitted for football during this season?

Answer: Currently, the NEC limits the number of athletic scholarships in football to 34 scholarships in an equivalency approach (i.e., the 34 scholarships can be divided among an unlimited number of football student-athletes). We are trending up to a limit of 40 by 2013. The scholarship limit applies to athletically related aid only. Institutions are permitted to provide a combination of athletic aid and need based aid/merit aid up to the FCS limit of 63 equivalencies

Is the commish misleading people here by quoting an FCS rule of 63 total knowing that it does not apply to the NEC?

[CFBfan]

Have you read the comments from 'Cuse fans in that article. Most agree that this falls on the Syracuse AD, not Wagner.

How is Syracuse supposed to know how many schollies and equiv's MU has on their roster????
It is criminal if a program misrepresents their status to another. let's hope that is not the case here!!

[Dane96]

so this is taken from the link attached i above:

I recently e-mailed the Commissioner of the NEC, Noreen Morris, regarding the number of athletic scholarships that are permitted for football and how many athletic scholarships each college grants. Here are my questions and Commissioner Morris' responses:

1. What is the maximum number of athletic scholarships that the NEC permitted for football during this season?

Answer: Currently, the NEC limits the number of athletic scholarships in football to 34 scholarships in an equivalency approach (i.e., the 34 scholarships can be divided among an unlimited number of football student-athletes). We are trending up to a limit of 40 by 2013. The scholarship limit applies to athletically related aid only. Institutions are permitted to provide a combination of athletic aid and need based aid/merit aid up to the FCS limit of 63 equivalencies

Is the commish misleading people here by quoting an FCS rule of 63 total knowing that it does not apply to the NEC?

Ok...by this season...does it mean 2012-13...or the upcoming 2013-14. If Noreen's quote is truly hers...then yes, this would be a MAJOR change in direction for the NEC...MAJOR. No way was any school operating--that I know of--in this realm.

That said...here's the deal- the NCAA requires a 2 year rolling average of 56.7 I believe. How could Wagner meet the rolling requirement?

All of this is SO FISHY.

Ace is well connected with Central...and for him not to know that CCSU isn't operating under the same program as apparently the NEC allows is just strange. And no way ALBANY was operating under this program either.

Furthermore...I find it VERY HARD to believe that Wagner found 24.6 kids who deserved MERIT AID and play football. That's insane...especially at such a highly regarded academic school. Oh wait, that's what the Ivy's do! ;) (Yep...ribbing the Ivy's).

I want, and I am sure all NEC fans both former and present, to know the truth...and the status of what went on for the past two years...and how Wagner is 2 year rolling eligible.

[danefan]

so this is taken from the link attached i above:

I recently e-mailed the Commissioner of the NEC, Noreen Morris, regarding the number of athletic scholarships that are permitted for football and how many athletic scholarships each college grants. Here are my questions and Commissioner Morris' responses:

1. What is the maximum number of athletic scholarships that the NEC permitted for football during this season?

Answer: Currently, the NEC limits the number of athletic scholarships in football to 34 scholarships in an equivalency approach (i.e., the 34 scholarships can be divided among an unlimited number of football student-athletes). We are trending up to a limit of 40 by 2013. The scholarship limit applies to athletically related aid only. Institutions are permitted to provide a combination of athletic aid and need based aid/merit aid up to the FCS limit of 63 equivalencies

Is the commish misleading people here by quoting an FCS rule of 63 total knowing that it does not apply to the NEC?

The real question is, IMO, is there a disconnect between the NEC's use of certain terms and the NCAA's?

Is merit based academic aid counted in the 63 max? I didn't think it was.

[Dane96]

Yep...agreed!

[danefan]

Here's another question......when was the last time the NCAA actually audited a team to determine if it was a counter? There are non-NEC teams that offer less than 63 rides that have played FBS games. What, if any, process is there to verify their rolling average of 90% of 63?

I don't think there is any.

[blackbeard]

Reading the Commissioner's quote and the By-Laws I read it the way CBFfan reads it. The league limit is on athletic aid and doesn't include other sources of aid such a merit or need based aid, up to the 63 limit. If this is the case most NEC teams would probably be counters. I would assume all programs have to regularly self report all this information to the NCAA.

[aceinthehole]

Here's another question......when was the last time the NCAA actually audited a team to determine if it was a counter? There are non-NEC teams that offer less than 63 rides that have played FBS games. What, if any, process is there to verify their rolling average of 90% of 63?

I don't think there is any.

Exactly. This may be a self-reporting system that is unaudited.

- How does URI (who was eliminating schollys in anticipation of join the NEC) maintain "counter status" for 2013?

- How D-II upgrades Central Arkansas and NDSU get "bowl counter" status in their first FCS transition year?

If the rules are clear and schools have to report schollys counts to the NCAA, why can't they have a "clearinghouse" where FBS opponents can look up the "bowl counter status" of FCS teams?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The contrast of the double-barreled approach on Monmouth leaving and simply looking the other way when Wagner apparently changes the entire nature of the football programs of the NEC OVER THE SPAN OF TWO YEARS SO THEY ARE A COUNTER is striking.

[CFBfan]

so unless i'm missing something it seems like wagner has put itself bewteen a rock and a hard place.....they have either violated nec bylaws or have screwed cuse??

[CFBfan]

is it just a coinsidence that the same tom masella who was HC when FU told the PL "FU" on schollies is now the asst HC at wagner as this plot unfolds??

[danefan]

so unless i'm missing something it seems like wagner has put itself bewteen a rock and a hard place.....they have either violated nec bylaws or have screwed cuse??

There is a 3rd option -they might have did what most DI programs love to do - figured out another way to count their money to achieve a particular purpose.

They might have shared that with some conference mates though if they did figure something out. The conference might look different right now.

[danefan]

What aid are NEC teams giving other than athletic or other aid generally available to the student body completely unrelated to football?

Again, I didn't think regularly available academic aid based on merit or need was factored into the 63 for counter status. If it was, wouldn't all Ivy teams be counters? And if they were, why would Yale need a waiver to play Army?

[M Ruler]

Another question to consider for members of the NEC both past and present: Was Wagner playing with an advantage against the NEC over the last two (or more) seasons?

There was always an undercurrent/rumor that when Wagner was DIII, along with several others (Union, Ithaca, Cortland...there I said it) had "slick" recruiting tricks.

NOT SUGGESTING I HAVE FACTUAL INFORMATION just that rumor was running rampant among people I know who were DIII coaches at the time and had always stated this.

[DFW HOYA]

What aid are NEC teams giving other than athletic or other aid generally available to the student body completely unrelated to football?

Again, I didn't think regularly available academic aid based on merit or need was factored into the 63 for counter status. If it was, wouldn't all Ivy teams be counters? And if they were, why would Yale need a waiver to play Army?

Ivy teams aren't counters because they do not buy out financial aid through the athletic department. If Wagner athletics is covering the need based aid portion of recruits within its budget (as Fordham and Colgate did), that is countable.

[CFBfan]

Ivy teams aren't counters because they do not buy out financial aid through the athletic department. If Wagner athletics is covering the need based aid portion of recruits within its budget (as Fordham and Colgate did), that is countable.

so if that is the case, are they violating nec rules??

[DFW HOYA]

so if that is the case, are they violating nec rules??

This could be as simple as the point referenced above: Wagner said "yes" simply because the rules on counters have changed, not that they fit the old definition.

That, or Syracuse really didn't do its due diligence and took the first call that showed interest.

[danefan]

Ivy teams aren't counters because they do not buy out financial aid through the athletic department. If Wagner athletics is covering the need based aid portion of recruits within its budget (as Fordham and Colgate did), that is countable.


Some high level numbers:

A. Wagner Tuition with room & board: Approx. $48,000
B. Amount spent on Athletically Related Student Aid (Men's from EADA): $2,938,451
C. My estimate of Number of "Full Rides" paid for by Athletic Dep't (B divided A) = 61.2

At least 10 of those are going to be basketball.
Even if all the rest of the money was spent on football (I doubt it), that would only leave 51 rides.

The numbers don't support Wagner being a counter under how I understand the standard rules.

[Franks Tanks]

is it just a coinsidence that the same tom masella who was HC when FU told the PL "FU" on schollies is now the asst HC at wagner as this plot unfolds??

Yes. Masella had nothing to do with Fordham offering scholarships, and he is just an asst at Wagner. He is just along for the ride in both scenarios.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is going to be real interesting how this is going to be justified. How many kids who can run a 4.5 40 were getting the same academic aid that was supposedly available to all students? Was there any interaction between the athletic department and admissions? Also, will the NEC mount any investigation, as booting Wagner out would jeopardize the existence of the league?

[DFW HOYA]

I think too much is being made out of this. Syracuse played Colgate three years ago, right?

With the new rules on opponents and counters and Syracuse's need for a guaranteed win, both sides saw what the other brought to the table.

[danefan]

I think too much is being made out of this. Syracuse played Colgate three years ago, right?

With the new rules on opponents and counters and Syracuse's need for a guaranteed win, both sides saw what the other brought to the table.

I agree.

The reason it is so interesting to me (and other NEC fans) is because forever we've been told and undertsood that teams in the NEC could not be counters due to the restriction agreed to the by the NEC presidents.

I can guarantee that was a factor in Albany and Stony Brook leaving as well as Rhode Island staying in the CAA.

This flies in the face of that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think too much is being made out of this. Syracuse played Colgate three years ago, right?

With the new rules on opponents and counters and Syracuse's need for a guaranteed win, both sides saw what the other brought to the table.

The Colgate matter was entirely different on a whole lot of levels.

1. Syracuse played both Maine and Colgate in the same season. Only one win would count for bowl eligibility.

2. Had Syracuse gotten upset by Maine, Colgate still would have been a "counter". Originally I reported on LFN that they were not, but in the run-up to the game I was gently told that they were by official people so I know it to be true.

3. There was nothing in the Patriot League rulebook to prevent its members from offering up to the NCAA maximum in terms of equivalency aid in order to become counters. Fordham had done so in the years leading up to their ultimatum on scholarships. Colgate apparently had too.

4. Crucially, though, they violated no Patriot League rules in the process for offering aid. Wagner either violated the NEC's own rules for offering aid, or they redefined the word "aid" as to redefine the nature of the NEC.

At the same time they were redefining aid, Albany were making decisions about their football program to join another league at least somewhat due to the scholarship restrictions.

[CFBfan]

I think too much is being made out of this. Syracuse played Colgate three years ago, right?

With the new rules on opponents and counters and Syracuse's need for a guaranteed win, both sides saw what the other brought to the table.

I disagree, imo this could be a big deal and colgate WAS a counter when they played cuse.

[CFBfan]

I think too much is being made out of this. Syracuse played Colgate three years ago, right?

With the new rules on opponents and counters and Syracuse's need for a guaranteed win, both sides saw what the other brought to the table.

I also doubt the Colgate misrepresented their status to the PL &/or Syracuse.....

[Sandlapper Spike]

I was informed last year that as of 2011 (and earlier in some cases), among Patriot League schools, Colgate, Lehigh, and Fordham all would have been "counters". It has something to do with converting loans into grants, which turned them from need-based aid to athletically-related aid.

[Franks Tanks]

I was informed last year that as of 2011 (and earlier in some cases), among Patriot League schools, Colgate, Lehigh, and Fordham all would have been "counters". It has something to do with converting loans into grants, which turned them from need-based aid to athletically-related aid.

The aid provided by PL schools has always been athletically related, which enabled certain PL schools to be counters for some time.

[aceinthehole]

I think too much is being made out of this. Syracuse played Colgate three years ago, right?

With the new rules on opponents and counters and Syracuse's need for a guaranteed win, both sides saw what the other brought to the table.

I think this is the most likely situation, but I would like to get some offical word from Wagner or the NEC.

[busybee14]

Yes. Masella had nothing to do with Fordham offering scholarships, and he is just an asst at Wagner. He is just along for the ride in both scenarios.HE is a more than just an "asst".He swings a big stick at Wags.

[Wallace]

word (http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/log/index.php/2013/02/28/wagner-scholarship-flexibility-reason-syracuse?blog=2)

[Franks Tanks]

HE is a more than just an "asst".He swings a big stick at Wags.


Good for him. He sure stunk at Fordham, and watching his sideline tantrums got very old.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Jim Gibbons, Wagner's assistant athletic director for academics and compliance, confirmed his school is able to grant any aid — but not federal aid— to a football player and have it count toward the 57 requirement.

Gibbons said Wagner currently sits at 61 scholarships.

Cue dane96 in 3...2...1...

[CFBfan]

Cue dane96 in 3...2...1...

ha! and on a friday afternoon

[CFBfan]

so if this is true (seems like it is): Jim Gibbons, Wagner's assistant athletic director for academics and compliance, confirmed his school is able to grant any aid — but not federal aid— to a football player and have it count toward the 57 requirement
Gibbons said Wagner currently sits at 61 scholarships.
Wagner wasn't nearly as good as they should have been (imo) and their coaches aren't nearly as good as folks made them out to be (again, imo)

[M Ruler]

so if this is true (seems like it is): Jim Gibbons, Wagner's assistant athletic director for academics and compliance, confirmed his school is able to grant any aid — but not federal aid— to a football player and have it count toward the 57 requirement
Gibbons said Wagner currently sits at 61 scholarships.
Wagner wasn't nearly as good as they should have been (imo) and their coaches aren't nearly as good as folks made them out to be (again, imo)

Again, I will ask, is it considered cheating if Wagner played in the NEC offering 60+ scholarships/aid/equivilancies whatever against the other teams who max out at 38-40????

I agree about the coaching. With 61 packages they shouldnt have been as bad as they were over the last several years excluding 2012 of course.

Dane 96 weigh in on this please!

[CFBfan]

Again, I will ask is it considered cheating if Wagner played in the NEC offering 60+ scholarships/aid/equivilancies whatever against the other teams who max out at 38-40????

I agree about the coaching. With 61 packages they shouldnt have been as bad as they were over the last several years excluding 2012 of course.

If every other team in the NEC didn't think so and schools left beacause they couldn't....yeah!! it's a big deal. as for 2012, I'd like to point out the no scholly and almost no equiv Gtown beat you....for the 2nd year in a row, just saying

[M Ruler]

If every other team in the NEC didn't think so and schools left beacause they couldn't....yeah!! it's a big deal. as for 2012, I'd like to point out the no scholly and almost no equiv Gtown beat you....for the 2nd year in a row, just saying

For the record I am an Albany fan, not a Wagner fan. Although to Wagner's credit they did beat us this year for the first time in like 15 years.

I just think that this should be a big problem for every other team in the NEC who played by the rules.

I think the score was 60 rides to 38

[blackbeard]

For the record I am an Albany fan, not a Wagner fan. Although to Wagner's credit they did beat us this year for the first time in like 15 years.

I just think that this should be a big problem for every other team in the NEC who played by the rules.

I think the score was 60 rides to 38

I don't think that has been the score for the rest of the NEC, but think there been some making incorrect assumptions on this board for a while.

[busybee14]

So are we assuming all other teams in the NEC are not using non football grants,and"merit" $$ in the same way ?.isnt all this just creative accounting and using basically the same #s in ways that meet the needs of the individual programs?

[danefan]

So are we assuming all other teams in the NEC are not using non football grants,and"merit" $$ in the same way ?.isnt all this just creative accounting and using basically the same #s in ways that meet the needs of the individual programs?

I don't believe any other schools are using it the way Wagner is. They aren't counting non-football related aid in the determination of counter status.

Wagner figured out how some way to make the numbers work for them. Good for them.

I just don't see the difference in what they're doing versus what the Ivy's are doing who are not counters. Based on their budget, Wagner's athletic dept cannot be buying out these 61 rides. I wonder what the trickle down effect of this will be in the NEC and otherwise. Some schools who previously didn't think they were a counter may in fact be now given this new way to look at things.

[JMG1MON]

Good for Wagner, but as a Monmouth alum/fan, I'm a little disappointed to hear this, as I'm sure Albany's fans are somewhat. Albany and MU both are heading to offering anywhere between 57-63 scholarships by 2014. I'm assuming they would have been offering the extra money, however Wagner is doing it, well before now. As for the NEC, I have to assume the rest of the NEC will try and get to counter status in the next couple of years.

[DFW HOYA]

As for the NEC, I have to assume the rest of the NEC will try and get to counter status in the next couple of years.

How is St. Francis, Sacred Heart or even Duquesne getting to counter status anytime soon?

[danefan]

How is St. Francis, Sacred Heart or even Duquesne getting to counter status anytime soon?


How did Wagner with $45,000+ per year tuition and only $2m a year spent on men's athletic aid in the entire athletic program?]

The answer is? They didn't the traditional way. They figured out some other way to counter aid for "counter" status. I'm sure it won't be a secret for long.

[aceinthehole]

How did Wagner with $45,000+ per year tuition and only $2m a year spent on men's athletic aid in the entire athletic program?]

The answer is? They didn't the traditional way. They figured out some other way to counter aid for "counter" status. I'm sure it won't be a secret for long.

I agree. This seems like an "accounting trick" and not more budgeted athletic aid. I'm not sure what to make about any of this until the NEC and NCAA come out with some explanation defintions. Does the NEC and NCAA agree that Wagner is a "counter"? What other NEC teams may be "counters" under the league's current aid policy?

As DF points out, how are Ivy's not "counters" under this accounting model? Is Wagner offering aid to 57 players, or are they issuing the amount of aid that equal 57 full schoarships?

It seems that Wagner is saying that any amount of non-federal aid equals a schoalrship player. They are doing a head count, not a scholarshipp equivalent count. I still think this is fuzzy math until we see some exact numbers and specific details.

The numbers just don't add up. 57 schoalrships at $45k/year = $2.6 million in financial aid. Explain where that is coming from on the balance sheets.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The numbers just don't add up. 57 schoalrships at $45k/year = $2.6 million in financial aid. Explain where that is coming from on the balance sheets.

If the financial aid doesn't come from the athletic department, it doesn't need to show up on that particular balance sheet.

[danefan]

If the financial aid doesn't come from the athletic department, it doesn't need to show up on that particular balance sheet.

Then how is it an equivalency? That's the disconnect in my mind.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NM

[DFW HOYA]

Then how is it an equivalency? That's the disconnect in my mind.

Unlike many eastern private schools, Wagner students are eligible for merit based scholarships. Thus, for example, a 1/2 grant from the athletic department and a merit scholarship for the difference is a kid on full scholarship with no need based aid.

[aceinthehole]

Unlike many eastern private schools, Wagner students are eligible for merit based scholarships. Thus, for example, a 1/2 grant from the athletic department and a merit scholarship for the difference is a kid on full scholarship with no need based aid.

By "merit" you mean academic-based, right?

Are you suggesting that a Wagner football player could get 1/2 academic (non-federal) scholarship from university sources, plus 1/2 athletic-based scholarships to equal 1 full equivalency for NCAA purposes?

What types of aid is included in the NCAA equivs? How does Ivy League aid (financial need or academic) not allow them to be counters?

What is the criteria for counting aid by the NCAA - type of aid (academic, athletic, need-based), or source of aid (federal, non-federal, university, etc.), or a combinantion of the two?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

By "merit" you mean academic-based, right?

Are you suggesting that a Wagner football player could get 1/2 academic (non-federal) scholarship from university sources, plus 1/2 athletic-based scholarships to equal 1 full equivalency for NCAA purposes?

What types of aid is included in the NCAA equivs? How does Ivy League aid (financial need or academic) not allow them to be counters?

What is the criteria for counting aid by the NCAA - type of aid (academic, athletic, need-based), or source of aid (federal, non-federal, university, etc.), or a combinantion of the two?

I am trying to find all of this out as we speak.

[aceinthehole]

I am trying to find all of this out as we speak.

Good luck. Should be an interesting read.

[Go...gate]

I was informed last year that as of 2011 (and earlier in some cases), among Patriot League schools, Colgate, Lehigh, and Fordham all would have been "counters". It has something to do with converting loans into grants, which turned them from need-based aid to athletically-related aid.

Yes. I understand that since this rule became effective, Colgate has always been a counter or otherwise very close.

[Go...gate]

Wagner may have only had 34 or 35 scholarships, but we at Colgate can certify that those scholarships were given to some pretty good football players. :)

[busybee14]

Wagner may have only had 34 or 35 scholarships, but we at Colgate can certify that those scholarships were given to some pretty good football players. :)

I like this!!

[DFW HOYA]

What types of aid is included in the NCAA equivs? How does Ivy League aid (financial need or academic) not allow them to be counters?

What is the criteria for counting aid by the NCAA - type of aid (academic, athletic, need-based), or source of aid (federal, non-federal, university, etc.), or a combinantion of the two?

Ther Ivy League are not counters because aid is rewarded without regard to athletic ability.

Also note the following NCAA rule shich may be of use at Wagner:

"15.5.3.2.2.3 Institutional Academic Scholarships. Institutional academic scholarships that are part of an institution’s normal arrangements for academic scholarships, based solely on the recipient’s academic record at the certifying institution, awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, are exempt from an institution’s equivalency computation, provided the recipient has completed at least one academic year of full-time enrollment at the certifying institution and has achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.000 (on a 4.000 scale) at the certifying institution."

[downbythebeach]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8228544/ncaa-new-bowl-game-tiebreakers-include-fcs-wins-5-7-teams

Did we ever solve this question? According to this article, it doesn't matter how many scholarships a team has.

[danefan]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8228544/ncaa-new-bowl-game-tiebreakers-include-fcs-wins-5-7-teams

Did we ever solve this question? According to this article, it doesn't matter how many scholarships a team has.
That new rule discussed in the article really only applies in very limited circumstances where there isn't enough bowl eligible teams using the old rule of 90% of 63 rides. It's the exception really and not the norm.

[danefan]

Ther Ivy League are not counters because aid is rewarded without regard to athletic ability.

Also note the following NCAA rule shich may be of use at Wagner:

"15.5.3.2.2.3 Institutional Academic Scholarships. Institutional academic scholarships that are part of an institution’s normal arrangements for academic scholarships, based solely on the recipient’s academic record at the certifying institution, awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, are exempt from an institution’s equivalency computation, provided the recipient has completed at least one academic year of full-time enrollment at the certifying institution and has achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.000 (on a 4.000 scale) at the certifying institution."

Per the NEC rules, Wagner can only grant 40 equivalencies based on athletic ability.

I don't think the other 21 they are counting have anything to do with athletic ability. Under the above reg you quote, those 21 wouldn't be included in the calculation.

Exactly why the Ivy's aren't counters and exactly why I still don't understand how Wagner is a counter and acting within the NEC rules.

[DFW HOYA]

Exactly why the Ivy's aren't counters and exactly why I still don't understand how Wagner is a counter and acting within the NEC rules.

The Ivy one is simple, Wagner admittedly less so:

Ivy League financial aid is not based on athletic ability and is available in the same proportion to any student regardless of athletic ability, therefore, it is not a counter.

Wagner aid is based on athletics ability (and some may be on merit grants as well) and thus they are counters. What I was trying to illustrate above is while the Wagner "athletic scholarship" total remains below 40, the merit aid is countable as well without counting against a scholarship total.

I'm sure LFN will get to the bottom of this and answer the question fully.

[danefan]

The Ivy one is simple, Wagner admittedly less so:

Ivy League financial aid is not based on athletic ability and is available in the same proportion to any student regardless of athletic ability, therefore, it is not a counter.

Wagner aid is based on athletics ability (and some may be on merit grants as well) and thus they are counters. What I was trying to illustrate above is while the Wagner "athletic scholarship" total remains below 40, the merit aid is countable as well without counting against a scholarship total.

I'm sure LFN will get to the bottom of this and answer the question fully.


NEC rules limit aid issued based on athletic ability to 40. I understand the rest to be aid generally available to the rest of the student body.

If its not aid generally admissable to the student body, then I'm not sure what the 40 limit even means.

[aceinthehole]

The Ivy one is simple, Wagner admittedly less so:

Ivy League financial aid is not based on athletic ability and is available in the same proportion to any student regardless of athletic ability, therefore, it is not a counter.

Wagner aid is based on athletics ability (and some may be on merit grants as well) and thus they are counters. What I was trying to illustrate above is while the Wagner "athletic scholarship" total remains below 40, the merit aid is countable as well without counting against a scholarship total.

I'm sure LFN will get to the bottom of this and answer the question fully.

I'm glad DF and I are on the same page, so I don't look silly here asking the same questions over and over again, but I'm still confused.

If Wagner's aid to football players is mixed - Athletic (countable as equivs and limited by the NEC to 40) and Academic-merit (non-countable, available to all students, and not limited by the NEC or NCAA), then how do they get to 61 scholarships?

If by definition Wagner's Academic merit-aid is "Ivy-like" and available to the entire student population, then it would not be limted by the NEC/NCAA, but it also would not count as equivs for bowl status.

I still think Wagner is doing a "head count" and not an "equiv" count when telling 'Cuse they are a "bowl counter." But I will be interested to read any statements from Wagner, the NEC, and the NCAA on this specific case. I'd also like to see what LFN can find out and report on from his sources, but it is my guess the NEC and Wagner officials probably won't put a lot out on the record.

[CFBfan]

ace, i interpert it the same way you do, curious to find the reality here.....

[danefan]

I'm glad DF and I are on the same page, so I don't look silly here asking the same questions over and over again, but I'm still confused.

If Wagner's aid to football players is mixed - Athletic (countable as equivs and limited by the NEC to 40) and Academic-merit (non-countable, available to all students, and not limited by the NEC or NCAA), then how do they get to 61 scholarships?

If by definition Wagner's Academic merit-aid is "Ivy-like" and available to the entire student population, then it would not be limted by the NEC/NCAA, but it also would not count as equivs for bowl status.

I still think Wagner is doing a "head count" and not an "equiv" count when telling 'Cuse they are a "bowl counter." But I will be interested to read any statements from Wagner, the NEC, and the NCAA on this specific case. I'd also like to see what LFN can find out and report on from his sources, but it is my guess the NEC and Wagner officials probably won't put a lot out on the record.

I don't see how to interpret it any other way based on the information and references we have seen to date.

I'd love to see the NCAA make an interpretation.

[DFW HOYA]

If Wagner's aid to football players is mixed - Athletic (countable as equivs and limited by the NEC to 40) and Academic-merit (non-countable, available to all students, and not limited by the NEC or NCAA), then how do they get to 61 scholarships?

If by definition Wagner's Academic merit-aid is "Ivy-like" and available to the entire student population, then it would not be limted by the NEC/NCAA, but it also would not count as equivs for bowl status.

Maybe the academic grants aren't available to the entire student body. Or maybe the merit aid is packaged such that it is available for athletes and counts for NCAA purposes but does not fall under the NEC's definition.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's how they did it.

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/693-how-wagner-made-38-equal-61

Includes official clarification from the NEC commissioner.

[danefan]

Here's how they did it.

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/693-how-wagner-made-38-equal-61

Includes official clarification from the NEC commissioner.

Kind of what we thought - its a disconnect between definitions used by the NEC and definitions used by the NCAA.

Good for Wagner for reading the rules and figuring it out.

Under this theory, the Ivy's should be counters as well.

In fact, a lot of PFL teams could be as well (Dayton comes to mind).

[DFW HOYA]

Here's how they did it.

Well stated, thanks.

As for Georgetown, this probably means one less non-conference opponent going forward. At the rate it's going, Georgetown might have to play Davidson and Marist home and away every season to fill up its schedule.



Under this theory, the Ivy's should be counters as well.

No. Ivy and PFL aid is not countable for the purposes of the NCAA equivalency definition and there may be a bylaw which speaks to it. Under that logic, Division III schools could count its aid the same way.

[danefan]

Well stated, thanks.

As for Georgetown, this probably means one less non-conference opponent going forward. At the rate it's going, Georgetown might have to play Davidson and Marist home and away every season to fill up its schedule.



Again, no--the Ivy financial aid is not athletic-related.


You didn't read the article. It doesn't matter where the money comes from. Only 40 of Wagner's 61 financial aid packages athletically related. The remaining amounts are either need-based or academically merit-based....all of which apparently count for the NCAA "counter status".

[aceinthehole]

You didn't read the article. It doesn't matter where the money comes from. Only 40 of Wagner's 61 financial aid packages athletically related. The remaining amounts are either need-based or academically merit-based....all of which apparently count for the NCAA "counter status".

DF, per LFN's article, I would have to assume that "Ivy aid" is the exempted form below:


And the final piece of the puzzle comes from NCAA Bylaw 15.5.3.2:

In equivalency sports, each institutional financial aid award (per Bylaw 15.02.4.1) to a counter shall be computed as follows:

(a) Once a student becomes a counter, the institution shall count all institutional aid (per Bylaw 15.02.4.1) received for room, board, tuition and fees, and books up to the value of a full grant-in-aid. Exempted government grants per Bylaw 15.2.5 and exempted institutional aid per Bylaw 15.02.4.3 specifically are excluded from this computation.
(Revised: 1/9/96 effective 8/1/96, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04, 10/20/08)

(b) A fraction shall be created, with the amount received by the student-athlete (up to the value of a full grant-in-aid) as the numerator and the full grant-in-aid value for that student-athlete as the denominator based on the actual cost or average cost of a full grant for all students at that institution. Financial aid unrelated to athletics ability (see Bylaw 15.1) received by the student-athlete in excess of a full grant-in-aid shall not be included in this computation.
(Revised: 1/10/90, 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)

(c) The sum of all fractional and maximum awards received by counters shall not exceed the total limit for the sport in question for the academic year as a whole.

[DFW HOYA]

If the student-athlete does not receive athletically related financial aid per NCAA Bylaw 15.5.1(a) or Bylaw 15.5.1(b), below but does receive institutional financial aid per 15.02.4.1, the student is not a counter in their sport. Wagner's loophole is that it is likely receiving athletic financial aid across 61 players because they are playing football, with the difference in amounts that are otherwise made up by instutitional or merit aid.

15.5.1 Counters. A student-athlete shall be a counter and included in the maximum awards limitations set forth in this bylaw under the following conditions: (Revised: 6/10/04)
(a) Athletics Aid. A student-athlete who receives financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability shall become
a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the financial aid; or
(b) Athletics Participation as a Major Criterion. A recruited student-athlete who receives outside financial aid for which athletics participation is a major criterion (see Bylaw 15.2.6.4) shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the aid;

15.02.4.1 Institutional Financial Aid. The following sources of financial aid are considered to be institutional financial aid:
(a) All funds administered by the institution, which include but are not limited to the following: (Revised:
1/11/94 effective 8/1/94, 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97)
(1) Scholarships;
(2) Grants;
(3) Tuition waivers;
(4) Employee dependent tuition benefits, unless the parent or the legal guardian of a student-athlete has
been employed as a full-time faculty/staff member for a minimum of five years; and (Revised: 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 10/31/02 effective 8/1/03)
(5) Loans. (Revised: 10/31/02 effective 8/1/03)

The Ivy/PFL waiver is here:

15.02.4.2 Other Permissible Financial Aid. The following sources of financial aid are also permitted:
(a) Financial aid received from anyone upon whom the student-athlete is naturally or legally dependent;
(b) Financial aid awarded solely on bases having no relationship to athletics ability;

"Other Permissible Financial Aid" does not count for counter purposes. Put another way, if Wagner's need and merit financial aid is defined as preferential because they play football, it counts. But the Ivy/PFL aid is not preferential by rule, so it doesn't.

[aceinthehole]

So, to summarize LFN's work:

Per the NEC, schools may only award up to 40 athletic scholarships in football, however they may use other forms of permissable institutional aid (need-based, merit/academic to reach the NCAA FCS maximum of 63 equivs. As such, moving forward any NEC with the financial means can be a "bowl counter" for FBS opponents if they wish.

If that is correct, that's good news for the NEC.

My follow-up question are:
- Was this issue discussed and known by all NEC ADs prior to this season?
- How many other NEC schools may be "bowl counters" under this 'new' reading of the bylaws?
- Was Albany and URI made aware of this opportunity? (I doubt they would have stayed in the NEC, but ...)
- Was CCSU and Wagner "bowl counters" in previous seasons?
- Is this a direction the rest of the NEC is moving, or is this just a 'loophole' in NEC bylaws that will be addressed in the future?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

(b) Athletics Participation as a Major Criterion. A recruited student-athlete who receives outside financial aid for which athletics participation is a major criterion (see Bylaw 15.2.6.4) shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the aid

I agree that this is the difference, but I think the definition of "recruited" plays a part in there somewhere. Wagner participates in the NLI program and recruits athletes. PFL schools and D-III schools do not. Not sure about the Ivies.

[DFW HOYA]

The NLI is outside the NCAA world so it probably isn't a direct factor. It's also completely voluntary, so why top recruits sign an NLI is beyond me. If Jadaveon Clowney never signed an NLI, he'd still get his choice of SEC schools.

At this point, the only I-AA schools that do not participate in the NLI are the Ivies, Pioneer, and Georgetown, because one part of the NLI is a guarantee of scholarship money and in the other part it is a guarantee of admission. The Ivies+Georgetown do not guarantee admission to recruits. (PFL, not sure.)

[aceinthehole]

OK, so is this Wagner did?

1) Split its NEC-limit of 40 athletic schollys among 61 players, thereby making all 61 players a "counter" (per NCAA 15.5.1).
2) Supplement the 61 partial athletic scholarships with other institutional financial aid that is counted by the NCAA against the equivalency limitation of 63 for FCS football.

It seems so simple, I just hope everyone in the NEC had known or discussed this issue before now!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

OK, so is this Wagner did?

1) Split its NEC-limit of 40 athletic schollys among 61 players, thereby making all 61 players a "counter" (per NCAA 15.5.1).
2) Supplement the 61 partial athletic scholarships with other institutional financial aid that is counted by the NCAA against the equivalency limitation of 63 for FCS football.

It seems so simple, I just hope everyone in the NEC had known or discussed this issue before now!

I do not believe Wagner split the scholarships because I believe the "permissible insitutional aid" counts in and of itself. I looked into that possibility but to me it doesn't make sense to split them up in 1/2 of one and 1/2 of the other and involve both the athletic department and the financial aid office. You'd also need to needs-test every kid.

Important, though, is the order of becoming a counter. A kid magically becomes the "counter" once, as far as I could tell, 1) he's recruited and 2) receives "outside" financial aid (note: from any source). Then when computing the scholarship limits, all the outside aid gets factored in.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At this point, the only I-AA schools that do not participate in the NLI are the Ivies, Pioneer, and Georgetown, because one part of the NLI is a guarantee of scholarship money and in the other part it is a guarantee of admission. The Ivies+Georgetown do not guarantee admission to recruits. (PFL, not sure.)

I believe this is also a confirmation that they are a recruited athlete.

[Nova09]

The NLI is outside the NCAA world so it probably isn't a direct factor. It's also completely voluntary, so why top recruits sign an NLI is beyond me. If Jadaveon Clowney never signed an NLI, he'd still get his choice of SEC schools.

At this point, the only I-AA schools that do not participate in the NLI are the Ivies, Pioneer, and Georgetown, because one part of the NLI is a guarantee of scholarship money and in the other part it is a guarantee of admission. The Ivies+Georgetown do not guarantee admission to recruits. (PFL, not sure.)

The NLI does not guarantee admission. Not being admitted is actually the very first grounds for declaring an NLI null and void.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/nli/nli/nli+provisions/null+and+void

As far as why a big prospect signs one, it always certain interactions with coaches that would otherwise be impermissible and restricts contact by any other coaching staff, which could be important for a recruit with many coaches calling and emailing in a last ditch effort to land him.

[DFW HOYA]

The NLI provides an offer of admission unless the recruit flunks out of high school or commits some act which could nullify it.


As far as why a big prospect signs one, it always certain interactions with coaches that would otherwise be impermissible and restricts contact by any other coaching staff, which could be important for a recruit with many coaches calling and emailing in a last ditch effort to land him.

Famous case of an athlete that didn't sign a NLI: basketball Hall of Famer Bill Bradley.

Bradley committed to Duke and changed his mind a week before starting school, calling up Princeton instead. They were glad to welcome him to Old Nassau.

(Given that Duke went to two Final Fours in the years Bradley went to Princeton, one wonders if he would have been the man to get Duke past the great UCLA teams of that era.)

[SeahawkFan2013]

Great summary by Chuck Burton of CSJ. Essentially Wagner utilized it's available resources in a very smart way to become a "counter". Walt Hameline and staff always play by the rules! Maybe Wagner's flexibility model might make for some more FBS vs. FCS matchups. I think that's a good thing.

[danefan]

Great summary by Chuck Burton of CSJ. Essentially Wagner utilized it's available resources in a very smart way to become a "counter". Walt Hameline and staff always play by the rules! Maybe Wagner's flexibility model might make for some more FBS vs. FCS matchups. I think that's a good thing.

Kudos to Wagner on getting to this interpretation of the rules. I still don't really understand it, but oh well. I hope it holds up and other NEC teams get on board.

[Seahawks Fan]

Wagner may have only had 34 or 35 scholarships, but we at Colgate can certify that those scholarships were given to some pretty good football players. :) xthumbsupx

[tourguide]

interesting stuff and I still am not sure I understand. either way Syracuse sucks and ain't making a bowl game

[Lehigh Football Nation]

FYI:

http://www.informedathlete.com/ncaa-rules-definintion-of-a-recruited-athlete#


A prospect is considered a recruited athlete if the college takes one of the following actions:

If they offer the prospect a National Letter of Intent or an athletic scholarship agreement.

So I was right, once Wagner offers a kid an NLI, they become a "recruited athlete". Also, check out the OR in that statement. Wagner can offer a student an NLI, but then have their aid come from the financial aid department instead of the athletic department, and they're still a "recruited athlete".

[CFBfan]

FYI:

http://www.informedathlete.com/ncaa-rules-definintion-of-a-recruited-athlete#



So I was right, once Wagner offers a kid an NLI, they become a "recruited athlete". Also, check out the OR in that statement. Wagner can offer a student an NLI, but then have their aid come from the financial aid department instead of the athletic department, and they're still a "recruited athlete".

So what has to be offered in the NLI?? anything other than a "we want you"? the NLI does NOT guarantee addmission, does it have to offer any money from somewhere?? if not this could be a HUGE loophole, schools will just offering everyone NLI's

[DetroitFlyer]

Exactly why the IL and PFL do not participate in the NLI process.

[CFBfan]

Exactly why the IL and PFL do not participate in the NLI process.

how do know that?
i would think the opposite for the ivies.....if it DID mean the kid was admitted
clearly there is NO downside to offering it so why do you say that??
and what would PFL's possibly have to loose???

[DFW HOYA]

So what has to be offered in the NLI?? anything other than a "we want you"? the NLI does NOT guarantee addmission, does it have to offer any money from somewhere?? if not this could be a HUGE loophole, schools will just offering everyone NLI's

The NLI agreement binds the school to offer the agreed upon athletic financial aid (key word: athletic) to the prospect; obviously, one would be admitted to get the aid. Unless the prospect does not graduate from high school or receives a waiver to get out of the NLI altogether, the school is bound to the offer.

Because the Ivies and PFL do not offer athletic aid, they cannot offer a NLI.

[CFBfan]

The NLI agreement binds the school to offer the agreed upon athletic financial aid (key word: athletic) to the prospect; obviously, one would be admitted to get the aid. Unless the prospect does not graduate from high school or receives a waiver to get out of the NLI altogether, the school is bound to the offer.

they are bound to the financial offer (if any) but not to admitting the person correct?